Ideas - Why Canadian patriotism right blind nationalism

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

Nationalism doesn't have to mean extremism. It can mean celebration. IDEAS shares this 1992 award-winning documentary about "The Idea of Canada," which includes music compositions inspired by Glenn Gould. Composer Christos Hatzis discusses the relevance and meaning of how "Canada allows you to be patriotic."Credits:Composer Christos HatzisProducer Steve WadhamsAudio engineers Laurence Stevenson and Rod Crocker.

Fran Libowitz has made a career out of sharing hot takes without apology. And when I spoke with her at a live event for my podcast bookends, Fran didn't hold back. Smoking now is what being gay was like in the 70s. It's kind of weird and said to be nostalgic for a time before you were born. I have numerous times suggested to people at airports that there be separate planes for children. Get more of Fran's hot takes on bookends with me, Mateo Roach, wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast.

I'm Nala Ayyed and welcome to a special Canada Day episode of ideas. If this Canada Day somehow feels bigger, it's maybe because we've been threatened with annexation by the U.S. to become a 51st state. So it seems fitting on this occasion to bring you a program about the idea of Canada, which happens to be the title of a 1992 groundbreaking documentary that won international awards and honors. My name is Christos Hatsis. I'm a composer.

Been in Canada since 1982. I currently am teaching composition at the Faculty of Music University of Toronto. Christos Hatsis was the composer of the documentary, The Idea of Canada. Until 1982, Christos had been studying music in the United States and was doing his PhD in Buffalo,

New York, just a stone's throw across the border. What brought you to Canada? At some point, I was just one bridge across Canada, so on weekends, I would come with friends on Dunford Avenue, and I would be hearing

bands playing in the coffee houses on the Danforth, Chilean exiles, and Greek exiles from the junta in Greece. And I was just completely thrilled about the fact that this was a vibrant culture and people mix their music and their politics and they did it in a way that it was not, it was protested, but it was protest songs and they were happening in a coffee house where people could drink their coffee

and just listen to the music. And then at some point I just realized I was about ready to finish my degree and then I said, well, you know what? I have a feeling that this is a culture that is in the making. and I could actually contribute. Would you say that that was the beginning of you falling in love with the idea of Canada? Yeah. In fact, when Steve Wadams wanted to get in touch with the composer. CBC radio producer at the time.

Yeah. And exactly. So Steve approached me and he said, I like to do a documentary about Glenn Gould, basically about Glenn Gould's radio documentaries, which I had heard already the idea of North. My name is Glenn Gould, and this program is called the idea of North. I've been intrigued for quite a long time now, really, by that incredible tapestry of tundra and tiger country, as they call it, which constitutes the Arctic and sub-arctic of Canada. Gould's documentary aired in 1967, Canada's centennial year.

But like all but a very few Canadians, I guess I've had no direct confrontation with the northern third of our country. this program, however, brings together some people who have had a rather direct experience. Different people speak together and at the same time, and he's a musician, so he's creating kind of musical structures out of that. I remember I was up in the cockpit with a pilot, and I was forever looking out, left and right. And as we flew along the east coast of Hudson's Bay, this flat, flat country.

I don't go, let me say this again, I don't go for this Northmanship bit at all. Because it just seemed endless. We seem to be going into nowhere. And my first answer was, no, thank you. Why? Why would you say no? Because I said speech is a real port. Years.

And music is parallel port, using the metaphors, computer metaphors of the time. And then I said, you can put parallel paths together in music, and you have counterpoint. You're trying to get four people to speak together. in counterpoint and you will get noise, cognitive noise. When I left in 1965, it goes on like this is over some special merit, some virtue to be in the north

or some special virtue. And I said, I heard one of those documentaries said I just couldn't believe that Glenn will do that, you know, because he's a fantastic musician and I just completely adore what he did musically. and I was in fact arranged to meet with him, but he died to days before her appointment, you know.

So anyway, but the documentaries, I thought that it was him just kind of taking it a bridge too far. And yet, obviously, you changed your mind. Why? Why did you change your mind? I don't think Steve probably knows, but I talked to a friend of mine at that time, and I said I just turned down an offer by,

And I was actually a starving artist at that time, you know, but I just could not let myself do something that I just thought would be wrong, you know. And he was a lawyer. And he said, okay, so he says, that's not really good for your career. That's wonderful. And I got in with a lot of trepidation. Part of his trepidation was that the idea of Canada wasn't going to sound like anything CBC had aired before. a soundscape as layered and complex as the country itself. It drew on countless news clips, archival audio,

as well as new interview clips, all on the subject of Canada, and would be mixed with sound effects and original music, using recording equipment and computerized production techniques that were state-of-the-art back then. CBC had just its first digital mixer, which was in the old on Jarvis Street the old CVC building

and it came from England and was breaking down every other day you know and they had to call London but that was the only digital mixer in Canada at the time

so that was exciting so all of that was very much it was almost like Glenn Gould who was just completely interested in in any new technology just kind of saying

you're going to do this and I don't want to make sure his spirit was pushing you on yeah so his goal was definitely around. So the very first track of this piece, this documentary, is actually called My Canada. Could you talk about what makes Canada yours?

Yeah. Well, up until that time, I really did not have much of an idea of what Canada was, mostly because I hardly ever ventured outside of the Danforth Avenue, you know, where I was. I wasn't there to be Greek, you know. And the first actually, in terms of Canada, I spent about two weeks in Winnipeg at a Greek nightclub.

And there was an event there that actually marked me significantly because it was in the middle of winter. It was minus 50 degrees. We arrived at this Greek restaurant, which was called Athens by Night on Porto Gavignon. Oh, wow. Right in the heart of downtown. And the next one, the next to that,

place was an indigenous bar and and when we arrived there it was blood all over the snow and there were people holding broken bottles you know it was obviously an altercation that actually happened it then of a sudden there's sirens and their police cars coming from all over the place and they came with this kind of huge trucks where you could actually do massive arrests and and so the policeman came out, they arrested every indigenous person inside, threw them into the trucks, and left. And I'm sitting there, like completely in disbelief, in minus 50 degrees, with blood all over the snow. And I said, I said to the owner, they didn't ask us any questions.

I mean, they found us here, right? You know, they didn't care. Like, I mean, and- What did that tell you about the idea of Canada? Well, it told me that there's a lot of work to be done. You look at Canada right now, and there are so many things that are unique in Canada. We have our country, which is very vast, and it's not overpopulated, and full of nature, and it still, you know, it still could be saved.

We have a lot to be proud of as a nation. We don't go from one end of the country to the other. We don't see anything in between. We don't even know for sure if it's there you can't see through the cloud. The space, the skies, the attitudes, the emotions, the very strongly marked seasons, the vastness of this country, it's wondrous. Water to drink, hands, to feel, to talk from my heart. I'm

Ackiae Koppotau-kot-a-sama Oh-jig-koy-kut-a-sama and a-lā-lake-o-kjol-kjolmik-o, amma-a-lata-lid-you-tack-a-you-tack-sha-nii-hani, I-gmi-he-gami, up-hik-mig-mi-mi-mi-i-i-l-hul-a-a. Good evening, Raja

Good evening, and I'm a choky-o-in-a-jinnu-in-jew-jap-jap-jew-a-goy. Good evening, Roberta, and, congratulations on becoming Canada's second space traveler. space traveler. Hours earlier as she gazed down on wintertime in the Northwest Territory. As you can recognize all the land-seat country in wintertime is not exciting. Let me tell you, it's exceptionally exciting from space.

It's very, very clear and a foot down. As you go through Gladstone and Portage-Laprary and Minidosa and Deepwater starts to be landscape, hills that you get to sort of hug the sides of as the cars drive. of us the car is driving. And you sort of come up from around and there's a lovely lake. You get to this really lovely lush farmland. Lots of wheat, lots of different rains, in fact, cows and horses and smells, and just feeling very sort of released, free from the confines of the city.

Lovely lush green lawn, little raspberry patch in the back where if you actually stepped in to pick raspberries, the frogs would move underneath your feet. It was really quite neat. I have a fantasy that I am a maple tree and I'm planted ankle deep in the red clay of Prince Edward Island and my thighs are the strong tree truck and a maple tree is my symbol of Canadian strength. My Canada is woods and prairies and mountains and the far far north that I've never seen that it belongs to me

I think of water first of all I think of sitting on a riverbank in Labrador and sitting on the sand in Pinswood Island and paddling across a lake in Algonquin Park and that water and the water that's in my body are one and the same I really feel that that's Canada Do you believe in Canada? Do you believe in the experience of the last 200 years? Do you believe in Canada? Do you believe in Canada? Do you believe in Canada? Believe in the experience, in the experience, in the experience, you have to decide in the experience in the experience of the last 200 years, the last 200 years,

the last 200 years, the last 200 years, the last 200 years, the last 200 years, the last 200 years, the last 200 years, the last 200 years, the last 200 years, the last 200 years, the last 200 years, the last 200, last 200, last 200, last 200, last 200, last 200, last 200, last 200, last 200, last 200. The last 200, the last 200, 200, the last 200, 200, the last 200, the last 200, 200, the last 200, 200, the last 200, you have to believe. You have believed. We have to believe. Two hundred. Two hundred.

Yes, two hundred, last two hundred years. You have to decide. This is a pretty damn good country we've built. And we don't want it. We don't want it. We don't want it. to bust it up. We don't want to bust it up.

Do you believe in Canada? Do you... We think change in the Constitution is going to change our lives. Our political leadership is mis-miseries, is mis-political leadership, is mis-political leadership, is mis-moise, is mis-moise, is mis-malical leadership, is mis-miserized by this notion. We think this is change in the Constitution. We've built and our political leadership. And do you believe our political leadership in Kennedy? We think is mesmerized.

And we think they're pretty damn good. And we don't want to bust it up. We believe a change in the Constitution. And do you believe it's going to change our lives in Canada we've built? And do you believe in the experience of our political leadership of the last country of the last... This is a pretty damn good country we've built. And we don't want to bust it up. We don't want to bust it up.

We don't want to bust it a hundred years. We don't want to bust it. You don't want to bust it. We don't want to bust it. We don't want to bust it. We don't want to bust it up. We don't want to bust it up. We have to,

pizza, right, to pizza, right, pizza, right, pizza, right, pizza, right, we have to decide, to decide, to decide, to decide, to decide, to decide. Canada as a country was a damn good idea.

I think it still is. I just think that it is an idea, however. And ideas reach their end. That idea seems to have become bankrupt. Or people have maybe just had a temporary loss of faith in it. I don't know. There seems to be a general disbelief in that idea. It's an idea.

Canada? It's an idea. Canada? It's an idea. Canada? It's an idea. Canada? Canada?

Canada? It's Nyganda? It's Nyganda. It's Nyganda. It's Nyganda. It's Nyganda. I don't know. Are we gonna break up?

Are we gonna break up? Are we gonna break up? Are we gonna break up? I don't know. Are we gonna break up? I don't know. Are we gonna break up? I don't know.

Are we gonna break up? I don't know. Are we gonna break a good idea? I don't know. Are we gonna brand good idea? I don't know. Are we're gonna break up Canada? Are we're gonna break up Canada?

Are we're gonna break up Canada? going to break up Canada? Are we going to break? Are we going to break? Are we going to break? You have an idea that has worked quite well. If you look around the world very well. Why are we going to break up that idea? As you can hear, the idea of Canada still demands much of the listener's ear, inviting or maybe even commanding us to engage closely with its ornate, layered sound design. Now remember, this was 1990. when the digital age was barely in its infancy, and computer technology, especially for audio production,

was still in diapers. We spent like days, I mean, mostly Steve Wadom's and the two CBC engineers actually spent days kind of cutting it because it was endless amount of work. We collected, I was in a basement apartment, and we collected dozens of boxes full of audio, videos, because every producer at CBC from east to west to north sent us box full of any conversation

carrying the first thing that had to do with Canada. And we didn't actually sleep for three weeks at all. I mean, we were just kind of in my basement, constantly going in and out. So what would happen is once we made a short list of all the clips that we're going to use, we actually realized that we didn't have enough. After all that?

After all that. And so we brought, I think, four people into the studio and asked them to speak about their feelings about Canada, and we became almost like hostile interviews in order to push them to speak from the heart. I didn't realize that the sound came from across Canada, that you had gone looking for it. But what I was struck by when I listened is how much there is of indigenous language, sound, throat singing, but also you have tracks, you have three tracks that refer to the French

fact of Canada. or English-French tensions. And the idea of Canada, of course, came out in 1992, which was just three years before the second referendum in Quebec. And I was wondering, you know, that time when we were facing the prospect of this country being torn apart, just how those brewing tensions were reflected in this documentary.

That summer was actually, it was pretty crazy. I think it was the Mitz Lake that happened. They would overwhelm us. if we let them, but we're strong enough. We've been taking our power back. Speak English. French. French.

They would overwhelm us. English. French? French. French. French. Everything you pick up is in English and French. French.

Everything you pick up is in English and French Well, it's a good way for you to learn French. Everything you pick up is an English and French. Well, it's a good way for you to . speak English. Speak English. Hmm. English. French.

English. English. What do you think I'm doing now? English. French? French. French. French.

You're going to have to speak English. How can you say that Quebec pushed French into your throat? How? Can you say that Quebec pushed French into your throat? Down my goddamn throat. How can you say that Quebec pushed French into your throat? How? Everything you pick up is in English and French.

Who decided upon that? English. French. French. French. French. You're telling us you want to eliminate French? Absolutely.

I mentioned this very point during a tete-a-tete with the other premiers. We decided a program of detente would be a real coup d'etat. There'd be no raison d'et for a rendezvous, as it would be nothing more than deja vu all over again. Next, hello caller, I need your input. This is Glenn Gould. Hi, how you doing? Now I know this sounds like a minute observation capriciously expanded into an imposing theory

But my concern has been to attempt the reconciliation of certain edifices of the present And the more tangential implications of the antecedents from which they sprung Who asked you? In each Canadian-Francer, there were a Quebecois. I say that in each Quebecan, there is a Canadian, also. It's on a music of François Cousino, a song of Gilbert Langevin, The Time of Vivant. The victims are the time of the abyss. It's all to do for do for sure to make a mor.

Du sand, the nair, and some other. That finish the time of the don't do, pass, pass, the time of the monty. I drive down to love The money for the I drive down to Nova Scotia every summer and back And I can't imagine going through a foreign country Who feel threatened driving through Quebec

They're scared to stop for gas Because they can ask for gas in French They're scared of something that they don't know But they don't understand Who-hoo! The spirit and the spirit of life. That the poise, here and there.

That society of Quebec, the Quebec, New Black Friday. Black Friday. Assassinated. For Mr. La Port.

Assassinated him. Or, Monsieur La Port. Assassinated. Life does not come to an end. Assassinated. In the trunk of an opportunity. This is my country. It's still together yet.

We can go right on talking. And it doesn't matter to me what goes on for 50 or 100 years, as long as we stay together. That's what's important. And let's not make decisions that we may not like to live with the rest of our life. I don't have 100 years left. I have no future in Canada. And I've got to leave.

Absolutely. And right away, as soon as possible. I guess because you don't want any part of it anymore, you say that we don't want you? It's not like that at all. It's so urgent that we leave. in order to be respected, at least for ourselves. But I don't think that I have a future in Canada.

Hell, we can't exist without you. Can't you see that? If Quebec's gone, but this population, would as well, the prairies are nothing. And I don't want to be an American. I don't give a shit what anybody says. I'm Nala Ayyad, and you're listening to Ideas, to an episode called The Idea of Canada.

That's the title we stole from a groundbreaking prize-winning radio composition that Christos Hatzes created with CBC colleagues in 1992 for CBC Radio. This week on two blocks from the White House. It's the 250th anniversary of independence in America, but celebrating America's birthday is fraught. Between polarized politics, the ongoing war in Iran,

sky-high gas prices and concerns about affordability, many are not in the mood to celebrate. Join me, Katie Simpson and my fellow Washington correspondence, Paul Hunter and Willie Lowry, as we break down U.S. politics from a Canadian perspective. Find and follow two blocks from the White House, wherever you get your podcasts. My grandmother and my grandfather and my uncle Nick.

They all spoke Ukrainian. But I think that they were very strongly Canadian and very committed to the land that they had. Canada is the home I chose. How do you feel about Canada? I love it, I love it. English, English, English, English. What do you do with all that freedom that you have now?

English, English, English, French, everything you pick up is in English and French. When I left India in 1971, the major crisis in the country was... Indian identity. What is an Indian? It's a culture about 6,000 years old. Home Mayor Michelle Lager said last week he would not greet the Queen on her visit to his city. And let me tell you, I think Canada will never be a nation. English. A nation with a soul, you know, with a core, as long as we remain in our subjects of the British skin. The British skin is a foreigner. English.

He said he didn't want to take part in a celebration of Canada. That's very chic. Very shimp. Very shins. Very shins. Is this a nation? You refuse to join in the singing of the national anthem. Don't we have a bit of pride? I mean, are we Canadian or what? For those of you that'd like to join me in the singing of all Canada?

In France. And any language of your choice. English. English. English. Without Quebec, Canada, doesn't make sense at all. English. You cannot divide the soul.

Everything you pick up is in English and French. My good matthes. A good morning I'm A good matthens, I'm up a good matthew I'm saying a rossine to singe to singe

to l'u'll be du la biduade and b'n d'uolm I'm b'uble me d'uolm My mom is French-Canadian My father is English-Canadian French-Canadian English-Canadian French-Canadian

English Canadian French-Canadian My father English-Canadian My mother is actually also a coordinator. French Canadian, English Canadian, a coordinator. French Canadian, English Canadian, a coordinator. French Canadian, English Canadian, a coordinator. So in a sense, I'm a kind of microcosm of the founding cultures.

I feel very much that Canada is a family. In terms of marriages, we talk about, and this is a country of marriages. marriages of the province, a marriage of culture, and we don't know how to speak to each other yet. It was bad enough being French, you know, let alone being native as well back then. French Canadian, English Canadian, coordinator.

Because I'm neither one or the other, I never will be. I am an amalgam. I think that what we lose, if the country does actually break up in some way, is that the rules have to be rewritten. French Canadian, English Canadian. I am an amalgam. This country is an amalgam. Our first union is a marriage of dependence. And then if we really grow and change,

then our second marriage is a marriage of independence. Marriage of independence, marriage of independence, marriage of dependence, marriage of independence, marriage of independence, marriage of independence, and that's usually at the point where a lot of people divorce and separate. Whether or not it's a myth, a particular image of the country has been smashed. There are many people like me who are hybrids. There are many people like me who are hybrids. There are many people like me who are hybrids.

And where can we feel at home except in a country that is in itself a kind of a hybrid? That's my sense. A myth, a myth, a myth, a myth, a myth, a myth, a myth. Marriages, marriages of the province, a marriage of culture. of culture. The myth has been smashed. This is a country of marriages. On racism, we've covered up our colonialism, we've covered up our anti-French, anti-English

feelings. We have been so polite. It makes me terribly sad, but mad, no. I'm just excited that it's all out there. This is a country of marriages. This country is an amalgam. I feel very much that... I amalgam.

A myth. Rewridden. racism, we've come played down in colonialism, rewritten. I feel very much that... But I have no home yet. Marriage of dependence has been smashed. Mad, no.

What we lose does actually break up in some. And what we lose. And mad, no. But if you can work through the pain and the fear of hearing what people have to say and the assertion of a desire for it, what you get is the third third year, that is a marriage of interdependence. And I don't think that. that we should back away from that.

It will be a disillusioning period for many people, and they'll be inconsolable, and I don't know that they'll know how to retain any of the Canada that we imagine. I can pretend that I'm an Anglo. I live in Toronto. I live most of my life in English. I can pretend I'm an Anglo. I can pass for an Anglo.

But as soon as I hear somebody speaking French, as soon as I start to speak French, as soon as I see... It gets emotional. Sorry. I have to say, Christos, that when I listened to this composition, I was struck by a number of things. One was just how seamless it all was, despite the fact that, as you said, there are so many elements. We're talking about music and throat singing and spoken voice and loons, you know, sort of representing the idea of Canada. But the other thing that I was struck by is how inconclusive it was by the end.

There is no judgment. there's no decision at the end. It's a reflection. Is that about right? Is that the intention that you had? It is. And I don't think in any of those debates when it comes to the soul of a country,

you can actually come to a conclusion. All you can do is let whatever feelings are kind of bottling up on people to be shared with others. Very much like a piece of art. You kind of left it for the beholder to the side. Yeah. But in this particular case, even for the participants to actually hear one another. So what did you want the listener to come away with?

Well, first of all, to realize that Canada is an extremely complex country. In fact, I'm going to say something now which you can actually edit, if you like. Please. Which is, I'm absolutely thrilled about what's happening right now in terms of Canadian identity, which is long incoming. And which is, we have Donald Trump to thank for it, because he has actually awakened us to an idea that, no, we're not Americans. You know, we're a country, and we better find out what does it mean to be Canadian. I think that even with the constitutional debates of Quebec and Canada, you know, back then,

that was not entirely resolved. And it's only now that we're actually realizing that none of us wants to be, the 51st state. Are we closer to defining the idea of Canada, do you think, as a result? I think even if you follow it, like, if you see the challenge and all of a sudden, you realize

that it's a non-starter, that makes you want to understand what being Canadian is. You have to go to the north before you can even imagine the north. I mean, I have stood on the shores of the Beaufort Sea. I have stood on the shores of the Beaufort Sea.

in April and looked out on this vast expanse of frozen ocean as far as the eye could see and felt something in me that I'd never experienced anywhere else in Canada. I can't even tell you what it is, a sense of emptiness, vastness, a kind of overwhelmedness. I imagine that if you undertook this project now, that it would sound very different than it would have back then, or maybe I'm not right, I don't know, especially given what you just said, this conversation about our sovereignty and the American threat to our sovereignty.

It would not be the way it was then, you know, because then it was Canadians kind of asserting their idea of Canada against the idea of Canada of other Canadians, right? And now I don't think this is the debate. Now is, in what respects, are we all different from the threat of not being Canadian?

Have you thought about how it might have sounded different, this documentary. Had you been making it today in light of what we've been listening to the last few months? There's so many things that they're different now. I'm not sure that, for example, I mean, it was AM radio, and there was no internet, and there was no anything else that would actually connect Canada. I remember I was driving in BC, and every few hundred meters, there would be a CBC sign about the new frequency that you can actually tune in.

So this was like the backbone of the country. CBC Radio. Yeah, yeah, particularly AM. And had like a mythical number of listeners in those days because that was not TV, there was nothing else. Everything was local otherwise. So now it's different. I'm not entirely sure how the information would be constructed

and passed now. There's one line, I think, I can't remember actually which tracks, Just a second, let me see. Where is it? Oh, actually, it was in the very last track where there's a voice that's repeated that says that there really is no myth that binds Canada.

Do you think that's still the case? Well, myths are actually created in time of danger. And now is such a time. In those days, we had myths, but the thing is that, but the danger there was that we would explode from the inside out.

And now that's not a danger anymore. So, yeah, we'll have myths, and the myths would be, I mean, up until very recently, both the United States and Canada were colonial states from the same source. So now we don't live in a world anymore where national consciousness

is what binds or separates people together. It's a completely different world. I think now we're actually looking at humanity as being in danger and the environment. And so it's not like climate change is not a national myth. It's now a planetary myth. You know, we need to address it at that level. One of the tracks of the documentary is entitled Counterpoint. Do you believe in Canada?

So I wanted to ask you directly, Christos, do you believe? leave in Canada? Yes. I mean, if I just say yes, it doesn't actually mean much, you know, but I do. I mean, I've learned life in Canada more than anywhere else, you know, more than my schooling, more than my childhood. And it's only Canada that made me a world citizen. I don't think I would have had that consciousness anywhere else because there is

a lot of this kind of nationalistic kind of definition of people. Canada allows you to be patriotic and not to be nationalist. Such wise words and such a beautiful composition and so relevant even today. Thank you so much for coming in to talk about it. Thank you. This track is the one I was referring to. It's called Stories That Bind. Air to breathe.

Water to drink, hands to feel, eyes to see, air to breathe. And the understanding to talk from my heart. So very few people know the songs that have to be sung. I think what I mourn is the lack of myth that allows people to pull together. Canada doesn't have stories that are in the nation. We have a series of stories. We have the stories of our railroad and building the railroad of Confederation

and stories of fur traders and voyagers. I don't think any of these things reach the level of myth. Canada cannot build a mythology overnight. And we haven't given ourselves time to build mythology. So very few people. So very few people in all the songs that have to be sung. My culture French was not supposed to survive. All the policies were designed at assimilation.

But there is something in the spirit of the Canadian-Francaise. There's something in our spirit, I suppose, that did survive. We are still here, damn it. We're all wanting to hang on here. Let's find a way to talk about it, and maybe that should be our new motto. motto, and we're still here, dammit. You know? I sang the wrong You're saying.

You're saying to be sure little l'u'upe de la and de la de la de I sang the wrong words, but it doesn't matter because no one's going to understand. You were listening to composer

Christos Hatzis in conversation with me about the 1992 piece called the idea of Canada, which was produced by Steve Wattoms with audio technicians Lauren Stevenson and Rod Crocker. It had been commissioned to coincide with the 60th anniversary of Glenn Gould's birth. And speaking of 60th birthdays, ideas turned 60 this autumn. So if you have a story about how an episode or any part of an episode change the way you see the world, or maybe even the way you live your life, we'd love to hear about it.

Ideas at CBC.ca. That's Ideas at CBC.C.com. This episode was produced by Greg Kelly. Our technical producer is Danielle Duval. Our web producer is Lisa Ayuso. Our senior producer is Nicola Luxchich. The executive producer of ideas is Greg Kelly and I'm Nala Ayyed. For more CBC podcasts, go to cBC.ca slash podcasts.