Ideas - Why PEI cares more than any other province about voting

Episode Date: April 21, 2025

PEI has the highest voter turnout of any other province in Canada. Voting is fundamental to this community. Residents see firsthand how their vote matters — several elections were decided by 25 votes or less. In this small province, people have a personal and intimate connection with politicians. MLAs know voters on an individual basis and they feel a duty to their job. In the third episode of our series, IDEAS for a Better Canada, Nahlah Ayed visits the birthplace of Confederation to hear how Prince Edward Islanders sustain the strong democracy they built.

When they predict we'll fall, we rise to the challenge. When they say we're not a country, we stand on guard. This land taught us to be brave and caring, to protect our values, to leave no one behind. Canada is on the line, and it's time to vote as though our country depends on it, because like never before, it does. I'm Jonathan Pedneau, co-leader of the Green Party of Canada.

This election, each vote makes a difference. Authorized by the Registeredleader of the Green Party of Canada. This election, each vote makes a difference. Authorized by the registered agent of the Green Party of Canada. This is a CBC podcast. Welcome to Ideas. I'm Nala Ayed and welcome to our series Ideas for a Better Canada coming to you from Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island. The birthplace of Confederation. How do we as a country revitalize our democracy? How should we navigate the tension over competing versions of who

we are and who we want to be? In our series Ideas for a Better Canada we are traveling to libraries in different parts of the country in search of local ideas that can inspire national change. It's here in Charlottetown in 1864 where the Fathers of Confederation began in earnest to map out the early terrain for our Canadian democracy. These conversations inspired more conversations and by July 1st, 1867, Canada as a nation state was born. Notable that Prince Edward Island held off joining for a few years, having its own ideas of the future that it wanted to chart. But by 1873, it too became part of the Confederation. Canada's political scaffolding of course evolved over the decades, as voices that were initially

excluded made their way into the halls of power. And that scaffolding continues to evolve. We're here in Charlottetown for a few reasons. For one, of course, it is indeed the birthplace of confederation, and it is a place where people engage in politics with an intensity and commitment that others across the country can only envy. Here on the stage with me are five insightful panelists, each of whom have thought deeply about the state of democracy here

and what can be done to make it better. We'll hear from each of them individually first, and then we'll open it up to a group discussion. Our goal by the end of this hour is to reflect this community to the rest of Canada to highlight ideas fostered locally here, again, that can inspire change nationally. And our first guest appropriately is my colleague, CBC Charlottetown's legislative or provincial reporter, Kerry Campbell. Welcome, Kerry.

I'm happy to be here. I didn't know you were originally from Manitoba. Yeah, I had this hankering to live by the ocean, move to the East Coast, and all my friends went west, and I came east. OK, and you've been covering politics on this island for two decades. And so I'm wondering what you think

makes PEI's political scene unique to other provinces? Well, I think if you want to understand, I mean, there are stories that islanders love to tell and that I always love to hear about the 2003 election. So until Fiona hit a few years ago, I think Hurricane Juan was the most destructive storm that ever hit PEI. Certainly it was within the memories of anyone who was around back then. Juan made landfall sometime after 3 a.m. on September 29th, and that was election day.

Now everyone in this room knows what it's like to wake up the morning after your community was just devastated by a hurricane. If you haven't experienced that, I don't know how to explain it. It is a really surreal experience. But the vote went ahead. I don't know, our chief electoral officer is here tonight. He might be able to explain this better. I don't know if there was any way to delay the vote at that point. Islanders went out and voted and if you read the chief

electoral officer's report from the day, Merrill Wiginton, he was the chief electoral officer back then, there's no mention of the storm or anything. There's thanks for everyone who worked hard to make it happen and there's no mention of the voter turnout but I can tell you that the voter turnout was 85%. Incredible. Many of those islanders voting by candlelight because power had gone out to two-thirds of the province. What I want to know is what would have the turnout have been had there not been?

How much higher could you get? 90, 95? Yeah, again, we're not talking about Chief Electoral Officer. But it is historically high here and high compared to other provinces. What do you think, why do you think that is? Well I think, I mean a big part of it I think is because PEI is small and so there's a just a closer connection, a more personal intimate level of connection with our politicians for one thing. It's something that people from the rest of Canada might not

realize is for most of the land in PEI there's no municipal government so your provincial MLA is the person that you're probably going to call if you want to complain about a pothole or if you want to complain because you don't have a family doctor or if you or one of your teenage kids is looking for a summer job. I know it's been suggested maybe we shouldn't call her MLAs for all these things, but it tends to be what happens. Also, just from talking to islanders for years, I can tell you that there is just,

there is this connection and passion and understanding at a really fundamental level about the fact that this matters in their lives. Yeah. The other thing that, again, you'll know about PI a lot more than I ever will, having not lived here, but in researching coming here, my understanding is that of all the provinces in Canada, PI is in the lead

for taking the most runs at reforming its electoral system. Of course, federally, federally we've heard about electoral reform and in fact when former prime minister Justin Trudeau announced his resignation he said his greatest regret was not tackling electoral reform. So what is it about PEI that made it the place that had taken the most runs at reforming the system? Why have we kind of taken this kick at the can on electoral reform three times now. There was a vote in 2005, another one in 2016, and then a follow-up vote in 2019. We never quite got to the point where we changed things, but

again, I think it's because PEI is so small. So we have had these really lopsided electoral results. 1935, I wasn't here back then, but we got, electoral results. 1935, I wasn't here back then, but we got, it was a sweep and now I'm forgetting was it the Liberals or the Conservatives, whichever party came in second place got 42% of the vote and zero seats. And then, but more recently into the late 80s into the 90s or 2000s we've had I think three different legislative assemblies where the official opposition was one person or two people. So there was this feeling that that is not good for democracy,

that maybe it's not a fair result for all voters. And so that's why we took these various kicks at that can. We just haven't managed to get it anywhere where things have changed. But what does this say, do you think fundamentally about the people of this province and their commitment to democracy? Well, you know, so every morning I take my dog for a walk and I pass this neighbor's house and he still has a sign in the window that says honor the vote. And that came from that 2016 ballot where islanders actually chose

proportional representation from among from among five different electoral models as their preferred model. The Premier of the day said well that turned out actually was not very good so we're not going ahead with that. But I think there is again that understanding of what's at stake, how much this matters and I mean that honor the vote thing that was an issue about fairness. There again, that understanding of what's at stake, how much this matters. And I mean, that honor, the vote thing, that was an issue about fairness. There were people who didn't even want to see change,

but they felt, well, that wasn't fair to have that vote and then not follow through with the results are. I know people who are advocating for a change in our electoral system talk about fairness. And that's clearly from the fact that what we saw in 2016, from that vote, the fact that sign is in that window still that resonates on PEI. So a real strong sense of fairness. Thank you, Kerry. We're going to come back to you,

but we're going to make the round here. And next, for us to really look ahead into the future, it really is worth looking back to get a better sense of how we got here. To help us do that, here is Ed McDonald, Professor Emeritus in the History Department at the University of Prince Edward Island, specializing in the province's political and social history. Welcome Ed McDonald. Hi. Hi.

It's great to have you here. It's a pleasure to be here. I am wondering if you could pick up where Kerry kind of left off and just talk about what some of the unique qualities that you think of politics here on PEI going back to its early years. Well, Kerry has said a lot of things I agree with, but when we think of democracy, the concept of democracy that we have in Canada really originated in Greece, and it was meant to work in small states,

and really, you know, city level. So the micro state, the small place, seemed to be the place where rule by the people was going to thrive. Now, who the people were, how their will would be expressed has changed and altered and has been a challenge. But I think part of the reason that we have a strong democracy here is because it is a small place, physically small, and also the

population is small. So Carrie had mentioned not only does everyone know who the MLA is, it's not just his name, her name, their name, they know the person, but the MLA also knows who the voters are on an individual basis. And I've talked to MLAs over many years, and they feel a duty towards those people. Does that make them more responsive to the complaints they hear? I think it does. They feel a duty, not in a general way, to some anonymous mass of voters. They feel a duty of care towards the individual people.

Does that naturally empower the citizenship? It can. And I think in many cases, it does. Now, there are a couple of other elements, I think, about the history of PEI that have built this engagement so that people have said, well, it's a blood sport in PEI. Engaging in politics is a blood sport.

And it is a blood sport, like wishing for your hockey team. But also, the government on PEI traditionally has mattered a great deal in terms of our everyday lives. We lean on their government, federal transfers, the creation of employment for people and so who's in power matters and the final point that I would raise is the point that your vote actually does matter. Traditionally, elections here are very close. I was looking at a study between 1873 and 1962. Many elections, 10% of the elections, were decided by 25 votes or less.

So beyond being a smaller place, going back to your example of 2000 years ago, you know, the way democracy was actually initially conceived, what are some of the core values that were intended to be part of that system that you see playing out in PI today? Well, I think another aspect of this is that traditionally, so the population in large part has been here for a long time and their roots are deep. And the sense of islandness, the sense of investment in this place is really strong. So how we fare as a society really matters

to individual islanders and that helps as a catalyst for engagement in politics. And my understanding is of my reading of history that part of the reason that confederation was so compelling was because of the threat of annexation, yes it's true, by the United States. And so if that was the answer back then to that threat, what could the answer be today? Well, not just annexation, but invasion.

There had been a war scare in 1862, just before the meetings here in Charlottetown. And there was the looming threat. America was actually our enemy for most of the 1800s. And there was a looming threat that once the Civil War going on was over in the United States, that the United States might turn on us, on Canada. So whether it was annexation or economic war or physical war, the United States has on occasion been a looming threat.

And as someone said, I don't remember exactly who, living alongside the United States is like, living alongside an elephant. And even if the elephant is friendly, it's a dangerous place to be. And I think one of the counter actions against the threat of annexation is a belief in democracy,

is a belief in the strength of your society, is a sense of having care to be a Canadian, and that Canadian means something, and a different something than being American. But practically, what's the first thing that comes to mind? How does that, it's practically done first by engagement in the political arena, by exercising the levers that we can exercise. The health of a society is like the health of an individual. It involves feeling a sense of agency in our lives, feeling that we have some control over events and over affairs. And the only way to control that is to be involved, to be engaged, and to exercise that agency wherever,

and we can, and Islanders have shown that they can do that, and Canadians will show that they can do that. And thank you so much. You're welcome. That's great. We'll come back to you. Thank you. Thank you. Next up, we have Sarah Outram. She is executive director of the PI Coalition for Women's Leadership.

Welcome, Sarah. Thank you for having me. So I hear you've been involved in politics, in wearing a number of hats with different organizations and specifically in the realm that encourages engagement, as Ed was talking about in the electoral process. What is it that makes that a passion for you? I think these are decisions about our lives.

It's as simple as that. Where did it start, that interest? For me personally, outside of work, I grew up moving across the country. I lived in five provinces, a whole host of different cities and towns, rural and urban, and I attended 14 different schools from kindergarten to grade 12. So I saw a lot of our education system, and I learned a lot about people along that journey. And seeing interactions between people, but between people and systems as well,

and the power that they have to impact and change those systems. In that process, you would have seen firsthand how difficult it is for certain groups like women or minorities or you know people who aren't represented traditionally in the political system how hard it is for them to find a place in the political landscape and to get involved. What are some of those barriers here on this island? Oh there are unfortunately still some yes you might

have heard the exasperation of my voice there for a moment. There are unfortunately still some, yes, you might have heard the exasperation of my voice there for a moment. There are many barriers. So with the PEI Coalition for Women's Leadership, we predominantly focus on women. And it is still wild to me that women are approximately 51% of the population and have never exceeded 26% of our legislature as representation. That's wild to me. And municipally, it's never been over 40. And then looking at federally, well, it's never been more than one out of the four. And that's not different than other places in Canada. No, it's not far off.

However, unfortunately, right now, PEI is 11th in Canada as far as gender representation at the provincial level. So I think there's some room for improvement there. Yeah. And to stay on the negative side of the ledger, for people who are involved in politics or who try to get involved in politics, cyberbullying is an issue. In other words, you know, harassments, threats online. Just tell me about the work that you've done in that area. Absolutely, so I almost hesitate to use the word cyberbullying because bullying tends to be associated

with youth and the term that we use is technology facilitated gender-based violence, which I apologize is a hefty term, but it is used for a reason because technology facilitated, you don't have to have an internet connection, gender-based, I think pretty self-explanatory, but the term violence is important to include there. Now, some of our work from the 2023 provincial election was doing first-hand interviews with women candidates and non-binary candidates who had stepped forward to run, and they had

some unfortunate experiences. I can think of one in particular. As we know, the internet does not have borders and impacts a lot of our lives and our democracy. And they were receiving threats from another province for their actions, for being civically engaged. And the purpose of that violence is to silence and to exclude. And we want to equip women and other diverse individuals with tools to protect themselves while at the same time advocating for systemic level changes. So can you talk about what some of those systemic changes might be? I mean how do you contain something as wild as social media where it is impossible to contain it feels like? Containment is an

interesting word. I'm not yeah that's that's, well, I had some optimism. So there was the Online Harms Act that was being reviewed at the federal level, and we were watching that very closely. Now it was, Parliament was prorogued, so that will be reset, unfortunately, but there are moves being made. But in the meantime, there are some individual actions that people can take to protect themselves. And the coalition will be coming out with a digital self-defense toolkit later this year to help folks do just that. A digital self-defense kit. I like the sound of it. Can you give us just an example of

the kind of thing that you could learn in such a kit? Absolutely. So there's protection methods. Now, recognizing that there are some equity issues within those, like paying for a VPN, well, there's a cost to that. But there are some other ways, like updating passwords, doing pass phrases instead. But there's also a substantial amount of education in there

because there is an entire language surrounding this issue that it is very important for people to learn living in this digital age. And there is such a need right now for digital literacy and civic education combined for us to take on the threats to our democracy. One last question before we move on. Despite the fact that this is a province where voter turnout has been historically high, it has been dropping in recent years. Just your thoughts on how that

could be mitigated or reversed? Yeah, you're right. It has been dropping. I think we said, yeah, it was 68.5 was the last 2023 election. And I think a lot of folks were saying, oh, well, folks, you know, they were certain about what the result would be so they didn't vote. People have been certain on PEI what the results gonna be before and they still turned out and it was still in the 80s so I don't know that that remains true but I think this civic education piece is so key. That's why does your vote matter? Not just how to vote but who are those people and what decisions are they making about your

lives? What is the difference between municipal, provincial and federal? Making sure that people understand that so they can ask critical questions of those people that they want to represent them. Just one follow-up to that. You said that's one possible reason. What other things could be at the root of that drop in number of people voting? Well, one element, and we're unfortunately seeing it as a trend across the country, are snap elections. Those reduce the ability for diverse representation, and typically you also see lower voter turnout. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. As we mentioned earlier, this is a province, is one of the few that's taken the initiative

to try to change the way that it does voting, going all the way back to the failed referendum in 2005. And Carrie, I know that electoral reform is an issue that you've covered closely and that you're extremely interested in. And so I thought perhaps we could talk with you again and then have you engage in the conversation as well. But first, can you just describe what critics of our current first past the post see as undemocratic? Well, I mean, the argument you keep hearing, and I'm drawing a lot on what proponents of proportional representation will say, because that's been most of the debates we've had

here, but I think it also is the same if you're advocating for a system like preferential ballot. Under first past the post, we get a lot of what people call wasted votes. Like I talked about that 1935 election in PEI when the House went zero and 30, 42 percent of islanders voted in that election and there was nobody in that legislative assembly to represent them. There's also this commentary that kind of our winner-takes-all approach affects everything about the way we work politics in Canada, the way people campaign, the ideas that they bring forward, you know, the way you have to

practice politics to be successful. If you imagine yourself in the war room of one of the federal parties right now, you know there's a magic number you need in terms of voter support. It's 36% or something. You don't look for ideas that are gonna be palatable to a majority of Canadians, you just need to motivate that 36% and get them to vote for you. So I'll add one more point to that too. We know the federal parties are gonna focus in the GTA in BC and in Quebec,

because that's where elections are decided. All of this is a function of the way we do votes. If a party, say if the Conservatives could benefit by getting even more votes in Alberta then they might pay attention to Alberta but they know they have it locked up. So all of those are kind of some of the critiques we get of the way we do it now. That's CBC reporter Carrie Campbell, who has been covering politics on Prince Edward Island for more than two decades. You're listening to the third episode of our series Ideas for a Better Canada, recorded

at the Charlottetown Learning Library Centre. Ideas is a broadcast on CBC Radio 1 in Canada, across North America on Sirius XM, in Australia on ABC Radio National, in France on World Radio Paris, and around the world at cbc.ca slash ideas. Subscribe and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and everywhere you find your podcasts. I'm Nala Ayaad. When they predict we'll fall, we rise to the challenge. When they say we're not a country, we stand on guard.

This land taught us to be brave and caring, to protect our values, to leave no one behind. Canada is on the line and it's time to vote as though our country depends on it because like never before, it does. I'm Jonathan Pedneau, co-leader of the Green Party of Canada. This election, each vote makes a difference. Authorized by the Registered Agent of the Green Party of Canada. Have you ever finished a book and just needed to talk about it immediately or wanted to know the wildest research an author has done for a book or even what Book Talk books are actually worth your time? Hi, I'm Morgan Book.

Yes, that is actually my last name. And this is Off the Shelf, my new podcast that covers everything related to books. Each Thursday I chat with other bookworms and authors, or sometimes it's just me rambling about my latest book obsession. From book screen updates to hot takes on new releases and of course, our monthly book club discussions, I've got you covered. So get your TBR list ready and listen to Off the Shelf wherever you get your podcasts. In our series Ideas for a Better Canada, we're traveling across the country for inspiration, finding out what local communities are doing

to strengthen the health of our democracy. In this episode, we're in Charlottetown, the birthplace of confederation, to hear what Prince Edward Islanders are doing to get the most out of our electoral system. Chris Ortenberger is a member of Islanders for Proportional Representation, a citizen group advocating for electoral reform. She was inspired to push for electoral reform back in 2013 after the province pushed through a new highway proposal without thorough community consultation. And it got a lot of people upset because it was expensive, there was no public

consultation, some older people who lived along the route were being utzed out of their homes and it was also going through some really lovely woods. So we tried pretty much everything and it was an amazing cross-section of people, all different parties, all different ages. And it was, we had a rally, we had tons of music, art gallery, just an amazing things. They still said no.

And so, and when the night that the highway went through, those who were arrested for trespassing made their way back to the bonfire, we were in the rain trying to kind of dry out. And we realized there were two things that were, two things about this. One was that it showed that we needed better environmental and democratic rights. And the second is that we really needed to try to keep things positive and keep going. The PR thing has always been, has been something I think that a lot of people have thought

it's just the next level of evolution in our democracy. I want to bring in Carrie here because she's far better informed about this than I am. So I'm going to hand it over to you Carrie for you two to have a conversation. Yeah, Chris, so in the time that you've been involved in the electoral reform movement in PEI, we had that 2016 plebiscite where islanders were asked which of these five electoral models should we go with and then then the sort of the honor the vote movement after that after that concluded and but nothing changed and then the 2019 vote which was part of the 2019 provincial election I think we were so focused on the provincial election that night which gave us our first functional minority

government of PEI and we didn't pay a lot of attention to the result from that plebiscite which I mean if you't pay a lot of attention to the result from that plebiscite, which, I mean, if you looked at a percentage of votes, it came pretty close. I just wonder what you take away from the result of that, why you think islanders didn't vote in the numbers necessary to make a change? I think part of it is that there's a lot of ways that you can kind of frighten people not to think about proportional representation. I think a big one was feeling that people would lose their connection with their local MLA because in

the one system, the mixed member proportional, the districts would be larger that you live in and then you would get that second vote for what they call the top off or top up representatives. So there was a lot of ways to make voters feel that it wasn't the best idea that was kind of coming from both ends of the island and we weren't able to really address a lot of those fears. There just wasn't quite enough time. The other thing was that on the referendum legislation of 2018 that was passed in June, I feel like listening to the debates of that you just felt like a turkey getting trust. There were so many fine little knots that were restrictions on funding and on reporting

that made it really difficult for a small volunteer group to get the message out. So that, I think, didn't help either. Yeah, it's funny because every time this debate plays out in Canada, ultimately it comes to this government that was elected under the existing electoral system that's in charge of trying to decide whether we change, and we've seen that that can be a difficult thing to get over the finish line. But you now, I understand you're trying to get the band back together. Why do you think this is a time when you should try to start this debate in PEI yet again? Yeah, and I think part of it is that, again, you know, everyone knows it's a small province,

everybody's wearing about four different hats when it comes to different things that they love and that they can spend their time on. And a lot of people have a lot of other competing factors for their time, whether it's volunteer work or work, family, kids, older parents, etc. So I think everyone kind of just was busy with other stuff. And then there was COVID and Fiona and everything too. So that didn't help. So we're just kind of getting it back together, figuring out who's got some time. It's time. Well, I guess one other last thing very briefly I want to tell, I'm curious about is what is at stake if there is no electoral reform, whether it's provincial or federal. I think a lot of people are looking for a way to connect more with voting

and to encourage people, and especially younger people, that their vote counts and that they can then vote for a person whose party represents the values they more closely align with. And I'm not saying the party system's perfect, but at least for now, going to PR and having it be in place for a few elections would be a way that we could see if that would swing more collaboration like we did have when we did have that minority government. Carrie and Chris, thank you very much. Last but not least, we are joined on the stage by Sadie McNeil, who is a fourth year political science student at the University of Prince Edward Island.

In 2023, she revived the UPEI Political Science Society. Let me read you a little bit from the description of this organization. It's a place, quote, where we take politics and turn it into a circus, complete with juggling politicians and the occasional unicycle ride through a labyrinth of bureaucracy. I hope that your group meetups kind of live up to the description. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I want to know why you decided that this group had to return to existence.

Why did you revive it? Okay. So initially, I revived the group in order to make friends. And then once I made those friends, they helped me take it in a direction. And we saw that young people really didn't have a chance to talk to politicians. They didn't have a chance to converse with MLAs and feel like they could say what they wanted and feel like they're in a safe space

to have an opinion that might be wrong heard. I think it's really important that young people are able to make mistakes towards politics and that we're a safe space to do that. Tell me about those events. What exactly you do at those events? So usually we host politician meet and greets, is what we call them, and we'll have either a provincial MLA, a federal MP, someone come in and they'll do about 30 minutes of talking about whatever they

want to talk about and it's always interesting what direction they take it in. And then after their time we open it up to the students and we allow students to ask their questions to politicians and I know I personally am always very surprised by how knowledgeable students are on everything happening in Canada. How often does it actually turn into a circus? Oh. Nine out of 10.

What do you think you can accomplish in a gathering like that, that, you know, an ordinary political meeting within MLA couldn't. So it really fills a gap, I find, in democracy, where young people aren't being heard as much. And I also find that we've had, like, tangible results from our meet and greets. Like, I know some students have gotten jobs or they've gone off to network

with these people. And so it creates a real avenue that wasn't there before and is really important for young people to have and to know about. What's the ultimate goal? I mean, it's very laudable that you want to bring together politicians and students and young people, but what's the bigger goal here of this organization? I would say the ultimate goal is just to build a community with like-minded people and not necessarily like-minded. I know there's some students we might not relate to each other, but we're able to still get along and to have discussions like that is really important.

Yeah. We've talked a little bit about voter turnout and how it has slighted, you know, tended to get lower. I'm wondering what you think beyond this sort of closeness that you're describing, what else could encourage young people to get out and vote? Mm-hmm. I think it's really important that young people see themselves in politics.

That's why I'm really flattered that you have me here today. And I'm really happy that I'm able to be here today so that young people are able to look at me and see themselves up here, too. Well, I were thrilled to have you here. And we wouldn't have had this conversation without you. So thank you for coming and saying yes. And thank you to all the UPEI students who are here as well who are very well represented. Let me see, where should we go?

Carrie, you've helped us establish the uniqueness of PEI's political scene. Ed McDonald, you've given us the historical context. Sarah Outram, you've spoken about the need for a broader range of voices in the halls of power. Chris, you talked about the potential to change the electoral system. And Sadie McNeil, we just finished, you spoke about the value of new voters and what they can bring to the table. And so I want to ask all of you the same question. What from this conversation, anything that anybody said that you think should be scaled to a national level

to improve our democratic health in pursuit of a better Canada? Sarah, I'd like to start with you. Sure, and actually I'm gonna jump on something Sadie said, which was with youth seeing themselves represented. I think lots of folks can say that. Seeing themselves represented in those halls of power, huge.

Ed, what have you heard that you think the rest of the country needs to urgently hear right now that we've heard today? Again, something Sadie said about people talking to each other, listening to each other, and as you know as well as I know, we're not doing that very well. We're speaking but we're not listening, we're not having a dialogue. So there cannot be any real change unless we feel as if our voice matters and will be heard, and as if we can listen to someone we don't agree with.

Also, Canadians have to be convinced that their everyday life is affected by the decisions we make at the political level, because it's only if you think it matters, again, whether your vote will matter, as Chris has outlined so eloquently, whether your vote will matter, but whether or not voting in general will matter. And we need to find the mechanisms where people will feel that way. Very good.

Sadie? Yeah. where people will feel that way. Very good. Sadie. Yeah, so just to go off what I said. I think that once you take the young out of in front of young people, we are just people. And I think that's something that a lot of people across Canada need to remember. And that you don't have to relate to us, but to be democratic, you should include us.

Beautiful part. Thank you. Just for the record, I meant young people in the nicest way possible. Oh, no, no. Very good. Excellent. And Chris? I think one thing is, and that will be what I said, which is I think it's up to people in a way too to maybe find, reach out and find their elected officials.

They're really not like, you know, all powerful. Sorry. But as far as, and most of them do want to have conversations with you and it's a matter of kind of unwrapping that bubble wrap that protects them, that sometimes keeps them from hearing what everyone else is really, or not everyone else, but what you might be thinking that's wrong in your community. And coming back to you, I wonder if there's, this is kind of an esoteric question, kind of a thinking question, but is there one way you think that the founding architecture

of our confederation could have been better built to take into account the needs of today? Because there's something that could have been done differently to kind of prepare us for this moment that you described so well, where we feel that we live in these different worlds. Well, obviously, I mean, I've been involved in new kind of exhibit design at Providence House which will reopen this year and one of the things we've learned is that the people who were the founders of our Dominion of Canada left a lot of people out of the discussion. A lot of people were not at the table. Now

it's easy to blame the founders of the country, those white European settler males. We have to remember they're creatures of their time, they're creatures of their concept of how democracy worked and who the people were. So yes, if we could go back in time with the viewpoint of 2025, we go, well proportional representation would be a pretty good idea. Well, what about women? What about all of these other peoples? What about indigenous people? What about people of visible minorities, etc.? So we could have been more inclusive, but when you think about the durability of the country that was founded, I have to say they didn't do such a bad job, because if they did, we wouldn't be having this

sort of evening in conversation, and we wouldn't have the hope to have the agency to make change. Sarah, then? Sure. What do you make of that, Sarah? Oh, I'm speaking my language. Absolutely, I mean, there is,

I don't think laying blame to something from centuries past is going to accomplish what we need it to now. But I'd also love to pull on something that Chris said. While I agree that we shouldn't be idolizing our representatives, I also think it's important to remember that they're human. Something that really troubles me is, I was reading this article a couple months ago that stated that in 2019 the House of Commons,

Sergeant at Arms, opened five cases, or no, sorry, it was eight. They opened eight cases of harassment against MPs. Last year it was 530. That's a distinctive jump. There are many reasons for that, and I do think poor discourse and false discourse in online spaces contributes to that. But I think it's important to recognize that these are people, and these are people right now who are going through a lot.

Whether we agree with them or not is a very important piece, but those boundaries and those protections for our representatives are also important. And we need to be looking at those and making sure that there's enough of them in place so that we can have a healthy democracy. Because a healthy democracy is an inclusive one and a safe one.

It was said very well earlier that democracy is more than just voting and submitting a ballot. I think it was you, Beatrice, from the Samara Center for Democracy. And so maybe just to kind of finish off this part of the discussion, I'm wondering if each of you could talk about what else some of those things can be. I mean, we've known what all of you have done, all the hats you've worn, but beyond that what could the ordinary average person do beyond vote to become more engaged in our democracy and to you know work for a better Canada. Sadie. Okay so for me I know a lot of young people may not be as involved in politics as I am and following the news as closely as I do,

but I know that young people have a great way of distinguishing when something is fair and not fair. And I think that's something that young people really have a great way of doing. And that's something that they can bring to the table. And it really increases democracy across Canada if you do that. So bringing to the table and it really increases democracy across Canada if you do that. So bringing to the table what does that look like? How do they bring it to the table? Calling something out if you see it and you think it's not right or you think it's undemocratic or you don't agree with the system. Just using your voice and knowing that you have a voice as well. Sarah?

There's two. I have two answers. One is very simple. And I would say it as have those kitchen conversations. Talk about these issues. Talk about politics. Talk about voting systems. Talk about those issues that you care about.

But I would also say, perhaps a little bias-ly from the work that I do, encourage women to run, encourage people that you don't necessarily see represented to run, and don't just encourage them. Say, here's how I'll support you. I would love to volunteer with you. I would love to help you practice public speaking. I would love to make you some meals. I would love to make you some meals. I would love to help cover childcare needs because we know that the division of labor in households

is still not equitable. There are methods and there are ways to address the lack of representation of diverse groups and we can get this done together. Is there a proven example that you can give us? Does this work? Have you tried to persuade someone to run and it worked? It has actually, not too too long ago. Right? Yeah. It absolutely does work. Now we know for women especially it takes a few more asks typically, but be those few more asks and support them tangibly in doing so. Great. Chris?

I think any volunteering is good, anything, and I think encouraging people to go with you or come with you to a meeting is great and especially if you have to maybe if you have to ask them more than one time and bottom line those for people to stay informed and to look at the sources and when they have people that are sharing stuff and it you're like hmm that doesn't sound right see who that person actually is and you may find that people are getting persuaded by misinformation. Ed? Of course I'm last and everyone's used all the best points already. You can summarize. We need to educate ourselves.

So education, but educate ourselves. And I know a lot of people turning off the news because it's so depressing or listening to the news that gives us the message that we want to hear. So we have to educate ourselves and I think we have to be a witness. Witness to injustice. A witness not just to our side of an argument, but the right of everyone. And if we do that, we can make Canada a better place. I think most people who get involved in politics do it because they want to make a difference.

The MLAs that I've known, or people that ran for office, got involved because they wanted to make a difference. Getting into office often means the first, you know, law of being an office is to get yourself elected a second time. And that idealism wears away, but we need a dose of idealism. And I think we need to be less anonymous. A lot of the harmful and hurtful things that are said are said by people that are being anonymous. And I think in a way we need to make a country which is a macro place feel more like a micro place. Just building on that, Ed, this is a very specific moment in our history. Back to the question we asked earlier, perhaps there's more, it appears to be, there appears to be more idealism in

this moment than there has been in a very long time. What can we do using this moment to move forward, again, to our benefit rather than worrying about other countries? So as you're saying, is Donald Trump's actually doing us a favour? You might say that, I'm not saying that, I'm proposing. If the turnout for the next election, you know, federal election, is lower than the previous one, then I would say our democracy is in trouble. I think this should be a reminder, it should be a galvanizing factor in re-engaging Canadians

with their system and taking a hard look at their system and how it works and how it's not working. That's the opportunity that we have, the opportunity given to us by the circumstances we find ourselves in. The crisis in some ways is not too strong a word that we find ourselves in. And I think Canadians are up for it. All right. Well, this is a wonderful moment then to move on to the audience questions. I would encourage you to line up at the microphone. I will come sort of alternate on both sides.

You can ask questions to anyone on the panel. Please go ahead. Hi my name is Josh. I'm a third year poli sci student from the from UPEI. So my question centers around the youth and misinformation. So I guess we have seen the rise of radicalism amongst the youth and as young people turn to social media as an outlet to get their information, such as podcasts and whatnot, and I think there's a huge rejection towards legacy media and like establishment parties, for example. So I guess my question would be how do we, moving forward, try to deradicalize the youth in general?

The young people. Thank you for the question, Josh. Is it to anyone particular or? Not really. Okay, does somebody want to tackle that? Sadie, would you like? I can. Yes. So I know being the president of the society,

I've actually had a lot of radicalized people talk to me. And the response I am always giving them is that I hope you find more information and that I hope you are more, just find more information. That is kind of the key there. And I think in spreading of false news and we talked about the importance of journalism earlier, I think a lot of young people have relied on social media for their news and I think that ties back into education and that young people haven't been taught how to find the news, how to find if news is true and how to kind of fact-check their own things. So that would be my answer. Okay, good.

And Ed, you want, great, great answer. Yes, thank you. Sorry, Ed, you wanted to add something? I was just, for a lot of years, I worked at the university as a professor, and in the Faculty of Arts, one of the intangibles that we're trying to accomplish is to teach students critical thought. How to

critically analyze information and identify its source, what acts it has to grind. And education, the commodification of education, like the commodification of everything in our society, has in recent years emphasized how to practical knowledge. And it's not valuing sufficiently skills such as how to go out and navigate the world full of conflicting information, critical thoughts essential. Our universities have to do a better job of educating you, not just you educating yourself in terms of critical thought, not what to think, but how to arrive at what to think. Yeah, two things. I would add that it's not just young people.

It is literally all ages. It is everyone who has access to the internet is affected by this issue a hundred percent. And then the second piece is taking a step back and looking at how did we become so reliant on these social media sites for our news, on these privately owned corporations that are in essence controlling the sources of information that are permitted to be on those sites that people can access.

They get to determine the regulations on their platforms and are making buckets of money off of doing that. And that's something that the government needs to look further at regulating. And these are the same sites that allowed for the harassment of people who want to get into politics. They absolutely are. They are profiting off of racism, misogyny,

all kinds of issues like that, that also needs to be looked at. Yeah, and'll just say to that I've kind of watched for years now we all have as these alternate realities have grown up people believing in things that it's just not a set of facts based in the world that we live in and you will see there will be politicians that use this to achieve their own ends but I've always felt like as for voters, it doesn't matter what your politics are, it doesn't matter what change you want to see in the world, the people that you want to support to create that change, they have to be engaged in reality and if they're not, they're not going to

bring whatever is the change that you want to see in the country. It doesn't matter if you're right or left or whatever you are. So, I mean, I think one thing we all need to do as a society, and this falls a lot on journalists, but everyone else as well, is hold the people who want power accountable when they don't speak the truth. We see an example right now of just how far things can get wonky when people aren't being held to account when they make stuff up. I'm not saying it's a big problem here, but I think it is something that rests on the shoulders of everyone. Just, you know, yes, whatever you want that political party to make whatever change, you have to hold

them accountable first and foremost to speaking the truth or they will never create the world that you want them to create in this country. Thank you. Thank you, Kerry, for that. We have to wrap up, unfortunately, because the library has to close soon. I would like to once again thank our guests, Sadie McNeil of the UPEI Political Science Society, Chris Ordenberger of Islanders for Proportional Representation, Sarah Outram of the PEI Coalition for Women's Leadership, Ed McDonald, professor emeritus

of history at UPEI, and of course a huge thank you to CBC Charlottetown's Carrie Campbell, who's been a huge help all along to our trip here. Thank you very much, Carrie. This episode is part of our series Ideas for a Better Canada in partnership with the Samara Centre for Democracy. For more details, you can go to our website, cbc.ca slash bettercanada. Here at the Charlottetown Library Learning Centre, I would like to warmly thank everyone involved in helping us out, Mackenzie Hope and a big thank

you to all our volunteers as well as to the CBC PEI technicians Taylor Smith Richie Boulder and Tobin Monroe and the entire CBC team from PEI and beyond for all of your help thank you Our thanks also to the CBC Collab Library Partnerships Program for making this series possible. Technical Production for Ideas, Danielle Duvall. Our web producer is Lisa Ayuso, our senior producer and the producer of this series, Nikola Lukshich. Greg Kelly is the executive producer of Ideas, and I'm Nala Ayed. And I'm so grateful to have you here tonight.

Thank you so much for coming. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot for being here. Have a wonderful evening. Thank you.