If I Speak - 108: Is it time to quit your job? w/ William Rayfet Hunter

Episode Date: April 14, 2026

Moya is joined by doctor-turned-novelist William Hunter to talk about what it takes to abandon your career for something new. What are the signs it’s time for a change? What if you quit everything but still feel bad inside? Plus: what to do about bigoted tweets from the past. Will’s debut novel Sunstruck is out in paperback on 25th June. Got a dilemma? Email [e-mail] Join us at Crossed Wires festival in Sheffield on 4th July! https://crossedwires.live/ Music by Matt Huxley.

And welcome to, if I speak, normally, eagerly listeners will note it's Ash greeting you, calling me her comrade co-pilot. But today Ash is on the other side of the world, hopefully enjoying some delicious cocktail on a Thai beach. In her absence, however, I have rallied the troops. WhatsApp were sent. The troops are co-hosts, substitute co-hosts, substitute co-hosts, drawn from a motley crew of girls and days, who I would be happy to sit and talk to for an hour on microphone. So today, I'm absolutely thrilled that standing in for Ash is someone that I've been trying to get on if I speak for, I don't know, two years now. Has it been two years of negotiation? It feels like it. This is author William Ray Fett. Isn't Ray Fett or Raffet?

It is Ray Fett. Yeah. Ray Fett. Fantastic. William, because I just call you Will. William Ray Fett Hunter, whose debut novel, Sunstruck, was the winner of the 2022 murky books New Writers' Prize. And you were also named one of the observers' best new novelists of 2025. Sunstruck is currently out in hardback, and the paperback drops on the 25th of June, which is just in time for the summer holidays. Will, you have now graduated from Special One to Friend of the Pod. Welcome. Please say a few words. It is such an honour. Thank you for having me. I feel like the reply guy that finally made it out of the DMs,

which I actually think is how we became friends. I'm pretty sure I sent you an Instagram DM and was like, can we be friends? And you were like, yeah. I bet people DMs lied you all the time. If I speak, I am in trouble. Your DMs, we're going to have to get people to pay. Pay to see Will Hunter's DMs.

Right. as you know, because you are a special one, you have listened to a couple of episodes, so you're aware that we have a format called 73 questions minus 70. Yes, very excited. And because you are now friend of the pod, that means I get to ask you 73 questions minus 70. Just so listeners can get to know you a little bit more, who is William Rayfat Hunter, winner of the 2022, to murky books, new writer's prize, and author of Sunstruck.

Are you going to say that every time? Every single time. It needs to be full title. Okay. Question one. Worst, this is because Sunstruck revolves around in part a holiday. They go on holiday at one point, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So worst holiday experience. Ooh, that's really good. I think I know maybe my worst day I went interrailing when I was 18 with my cousin and two friends and we had no money

like absolutely no money I think our budget was about nine, ten euros a day it was like by the end it was crazy we were in Vienna it was in one of those like really crazy heat waves and it was 41 degrees. And me and my cousin, she's one of my best friends,

she's 15 days older than me, but we bicker, like crazy sometimes. And we were like going for the neck at each other. And then we realized that it was 41 degrees and we had nowhere to go because we didn't have a hostel yet. And we hadn't eaten for like 32 hours. And so we like scrabbled together some change and went and bought a baguette, some ham and some cheese.

and like shared it between the four of us on like the steps of this cathedral and then had to go into the cathedral just to like get cool while we waiting for somewhere to go. And that was like, and we immediately felt better. But I was like, oh, I can't believe what I'm doing with like my body and my money. Like I'm a child. I was really like, I am a baby. I need to be picked up from here.

I mean, the people of the past would have also used cathedals as places to shelter. Well, exactly. Yeah. It felt... Yeah, it felt kind of, you know, we were really, really digging into the local culture. Did any of that sort of dynamic make it into your book? Out of interest. No, not into the book. There are holidays that relate to the events of the book, but not directly. There's some holiday romances. I actually... I don't know if I do anymore, but there was a long period of my life where I would fall madly in love every time I went on holiday. To the point that, are I going to say this? Yeah, to the point that it led me to take a 10-hour detour to go to Taiwan to see a man that I was at the time madly in love with.

And we haven't spoken soon. So, yeah, follow your heart. beware, I guess. The 10-hour detail, the Taiwan episode, I'd love to do a whole episode just on Taiwan and why you went to Taiwan. What led you to Taiwan? But I don't know if we can do that.

Yeah, it's a long and complicated story, but it didn't end well. Okay. Second question. Something unappreciated about Britain that you love. Oh, that is great. No, I really love Britain. I think I slag off Britain and Britishness quite a lot because, well, of the reform of it all.

But actually, like, maybe I need to reclaim Britain, you know. Like, I do really love being from here. And I'm not from anywhere else, you know. I went out to Jamaica a couple of weeks ago, and it was – I'm not from there. Anyway, favourite things about Britain, underappreciated. I'm a big hiker. and I really, really love when you are out and about middle of nowhere and you are like walking, you've not seen anyone for ages and you come across like some random strangers and they see

you coming from miles off and like as they get closer, you're like, yeah, it's coming, it's going, it's coming, it's coming, it's coming, it's coming. No, like afternoon. And then you're gone. And it's like, yeah. I love it. I really, really love it. So it's the politeness, like anywhere you are, especially in the countryside, people will just be like,

hi and it's just like yeah morning hi yeah and you've got a time exactly right I love exactly right exactly what you're talking about like the tension's coming you're like when am I going to do it you can't shout it too early because then you're screaming you can't shout it too late because then they turn around it's great I love it drop it exactly the right time that is you've got to hone the ability it's a real skill and I've noticed because I grew up in the countryside as well I've noticed that city slickers when you take them out of the city they don't know the etiquette. They get waded out when people are saying hi, they don't know when to do it. So it's a real skill. And third question. Tell us about your book. Yes, absolutely. Yeah,

Sunstruck is my first novel. It won the Mercky Book's New Writers Prize, which for those who don't know was a lifeline for me, really. It's a prize that was set up by Stormsy in 2020 that picks up unrepresented, un-published writers and publishes their first novel. And I was lucky enough to win it in 2022. The book came out in 2025. And it follows the story of a young mixed race man who goes on holiday with his friend from uni, falls in love with her family and her lifestyle and her older brother Felix. And their lives get entwined and then start to unravel as he learns more about them and about himself. And what was really funny about? about this is you were writing this and had it all down and then Saltburn came out and you were like,

Felix, another family. Yeah, literally, I think I'd got my notes back on my second draft and then, like, with the notes, my editor sent me a link to the Saltburn trailer and I was like, oh, damn. But there's some really good parallels there. It's definitely in conversation with that work. So if you liked Saltburn, you should read Sunstrick. And if you didn't like Salt Burn, You should also read Sunstruck. You should still read Sunstruck. The Emerald. Is it Emerald Fennell or Emerald Fennell?

Everyone says it differently. Everyone says it differently. No one knows. I interchange between the two when I'm hating on her. Which one is the hating pronunciation? I think Fanel, maybe. Emerald Fanel. Yeah.

She's done it again. I have creative beef with her. Although I saw a tweet the other day that was like, Emerald Fennell has actually. pulled off one of the most impressive things, which is having everyone pretty much unanimously hate your work, but everyone also see it. So like, she's winning. She's winning. Well, yeah, she's, she's managed to make her work as close as it can be to monoculture event. Yes, totally. Which is quite rare. Really rare. I mean, obviously, I have, I need to get a job for like talking about

Taylor Swift on my very much. They have a jar for talking about Lady Gaga. I need a Taylor Swift job because I invoke her so much despite the fact I haven't been listening to her. This year, well done me. But again, someone who we love to talk about how much we hate her work. I mean, in the Swifty community, it's a different sort of conversation. But generally, it's that. And you have these monoculture figures. And it's hard to break through to that tier nowadays.

An Emerald, for now has done it really quickly. Yeah, and she has an Oscar. So until I have an Oscar, I can't speak on her. She has an Oscar? What for, a posse young woman? Yeah, for screenplay, for promising young women. Oh my God, she's in, also she's in everything. So I didn't realize she was midge in bars.

Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's, she's everywhere. She's, uh, she's the most popular woman in Hollywood. She was, she was, she wasn't she the showrunner for killing Eve as well? Yeah. Like she has, she, she, she's, she's the forest gump of sort of TV and film because when you go, when you go through recent big cultural moments from like the 20th and towards, she's there. Yeah. She's somewhere there. Yeah, she's aspirational. She's aspirational. Yeah. And last week, the episode that people have just listened to is the one we talk about. Ambition. People, we hate seeing

ambition. We only validate success. Like, we only valorize success. So I think she kind of fits into that a little bit. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, we have, we have business to talk about because you mentioned that the Merkey Books Prize changed your life and was a lifeline. This ties in very nicely with something that I've been wanting to talk about for ages and if I speak, but we haven't actually found the right moment. And that's because we get these legions, I mean, legions of emails from special ones who want to talk about changing their careers or switching their jobs to something similar. You know, a drastic change in their professional life. And the reason we haven't talked about this on,

if I speak, is because Ash loves her job and has been in it for 10 years. So, like, the same job for 10 years. And even though I've left different journalism jobs, I worked my way into what I like to call more seriousness in the journalism world, a more background role, I'm still in the same industry. You know, I've moved sort of like laterally rather than completely out. However, you, Will Hunter, you completely switch disciplines because in a former life, you were a fully-fledged dog.

doctor. I was, yeah. Yeah. It really does feel like a former life. You were treating people and now you're a full-time writer. So I would like to use your presence in this virtual studio to really dig into how to start in a brand new profession and what other things people should consider when they get this urge to start anew. So I want to go from the top. I want to also this is about finding out about you, introducing you to our special ones. So I want to start by asking about that full. life and taking you back into the past bit. Like, first of all, what sort of doctor were you? And how did you end up there?

Yeah, great question. So I was an A&E doctor. And how I ended up there. Yeah, it was kind of crazy. I ended up there through a mixture of immigrant parent pressure. people please the tendencies and personal ambition, I think, is a fair analysis after a few years of therapy. But I was very bright at school. I was very driven. My dad is a first generation immigrant. My mom is from like an upwardly mobile working class family. And so basically there were three

options for me and my brothers in terms of career, which was lawyer, doctor and accountant. What are the other two? So my older brother qualified as a lawyer and my younger brother was an accountant. And so we did it. We nailed all three, the kind of Commonwealth immigrant trio. Absolutely smashed it. And I got into med school, like teachers at all we told me like, oh, you're good at science, oh, you're good with people, you should be a doctor.

And I was like, okay, that seems like something that I should do. So I worked really, really hard, got into med school. And then when I got there, I was like, oh, I don't know if I actually wanted to do this. But then I was there. And I'd worked so hard to get there. And it was so hard to get in that I thought, well, I'll at least finish. Like, dropping out of med school would be mad. And I still think it would have been.

And I enjoyed a lot of it. Like, I did really enjoy it. And then I graduated and I started working. And yeah, there's weird things about the, like, the medical training system in the UK. Like, you get sent kind of wherever they want you to go. You don't really have that much choice. It's kind of, it used to be a meritocracy. Now it's random.

But when I kind of was applying, it was like based on different exams and stuff. And I ended up in London, which I was really happy about. And I started working. And it was incredibly rewarding in some ways. And also just not for me. in a lot of other ways. So I think all the way through from kind of med school onwards, there'd been a doubt whether or not it was the career for me.

But every kind of stage that I got to, one, there was this internal voice being like, well, you can't really turn away now because you've got this far. But there was also a huge amount of external pressure from within the NHS. Doctors, I think you, from kind of day one of men, I remember them like sitting us down in a lecture and being like, you are no longer lay people, like you are no longer members of the general public, like explicitly telling us that we were

different. And that kind of, I don't want to call it indoctrination because it's not. Inductination. But there is a kind of sort of ego identification that you have to do with the career that demands so much of you, like physically, emotionally. financially, intellectually, that means that from early on you have to kind of tie your identity to it. So the idea of leaving is kind of spoken about in these really hush tones. Like it is like people don't do it. It is like very much like marketed to you as like a failure if you leave. And so I did my first couple of years, really did love parts of it, really didn't love some parts of it and then COVID hit.

And I was in A&E at the time. That was pretty intense. And actually, I think I can now talk about it in a way where I'm really glad to have done it and to have been working in the NHS at that time. It was a huge privilege. And I also think if I had been sat at home, I would have gone crazy. Like being able to actually do something and like get up every day and feel like I was like making a difference was amazing.

But I completely burnt out. And I ended up having to take a bunch of time off and failing kind of one of my foundation years and had to extend it because I'd had so much time off. But it was still enjoying it. But I think the doubt, the seed of doubt, was very much watered in that time. But I stayed on for another four years.

I think my last shift in the NHS was in 2024. But realistically, yeah, pretty recent. Yeah, pretty recent, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I think I probably had a 15-year career in medicine in me, but then COVID kind of shortened that. Like, I really don't think I was in it for the long haul. I was already thinking of escape ramps and other things I could do, but COVID just kind

of like squeezed out all of the doctor in me. And by the end of it, I was like, I have to leave this. Otherwise, I'm not going to make it through. What did that first, when you usually say you failed your foundation year, and you were not a person up until that point who'd failed. And also it sounds like the notion of failure was something that loomed over you quite heavily and prevented you from, you know, deterring from the path of medicine, perhaps earlier than you could have.

What did that first official failure? And I'm putting in quote marks because, you know, what do you mean, feel like to you? And what did it do? Yeah, it was devastating. I'm laughing because my actual, my first official failure I actually lied about. I failed my driving theory test. And when I was at school,

and I was so ashamed that I lied to everyone and said that there was a power cut in the Pearson testing centre. and that it wasn't my fault I hadn't actually failed and that I had to redo it another day. So that's how scared of failure I have been in my life. Do you think people bought that explanation? I don't know.

I was lying a lot at the time. I was still straight then. So I think everything I said had like a veneer of dishonesty to it. Like a patina of, yeah, patina of dissonist. If it helps you, I'm definitely going to fail my theory. Everyone I know has failed their theory like three times. It's really hard. It's really hard.

But that failure in my foundation year, it kind of, I was angry. I was really angry because I felt this kind of like, this like righteousness. I was like, I've had to take time off because I've been sick, because I've been working so hard. And now you're telling me I can't pass this year. So I felt like a very righteous anger.

But actually what that was. was protecting me from was this like fear and this anxiety that I had failed and that I wasn't good enough or wasn't worthy, wasn't smart enough. And yeah, I ended up having to extend and do like six extra weeks of work. It really wasn't a big deal. But I was really ashamed of it. I don't think I told my parents. I think I just bluffed it out. And yeah, I think the idea of failure, especially through med school is this big like kind of spectre that haunts people and people do fail, people drop out of med school,

people don't make it through like the selection process and yeah, the way people would talk about them was not very nice and so I really didn't want to like publicise that in case they would talk about me like that I think. Did you join in with the way people talked about the people? To an extent Yes, definitely.

But I had always been a slightly dissenting voice at med school and while I was working. I used to say, and I don't say it anymore because I'm not officially a doctor anymore, but I used to always say that I hated doctors while I was a doctor. You're so popular.

Yeah, yeah. I'm not like the other doctors. I'm a cool doctor. I was a bit of a pick-me, actually. But I think what I meant by that was that like I hated the, uh, the collective identity that was constructed within doctors,

that kind of idea that you are special and different, the idea that no one really understands, uh, what you do or what you're going through or works as hard as you or makes as many sacrifices as you. And that is true to an extent, but, and it's necessary to an extent to identify with that.

Because as I say, you're making these huge sacrifices. Um, but I was kind of sat there in that room where everyone was like, talking about it and being like, oh, we make all these sacrifices, no one understands us, like, we do all this and we get no thanks. And I was kind of like, well, you don't actually have to.

Like, no one is making you do this. And that wasn't a very popular opinion. Which is funny. Did you believe that inside that no one was making you do this when you look at how you ended up in medicine? Eventually, I did. I think, initially I thought it was my idea. And then I kind of realized that the things that were keeping me there were what will my peers think and what will my parents say?

And at that point I was like, oh, that's not what do I want. That's not how do I feel about this? That's not what is making me happy. This is all external. And after that, I think I was, like, once that had clicked, I was on my way out because then all I had to actually do was be like, what do I actually want? And as soon as I started asking myself that question, I couldn't really ignore the fact that I wanted to leave.

Do you remember when that clicked? What was the actual catalyst? Because you said you had a couple of like off-ramp notions, et cetera, and one fell out of the door. But when did that really click in? It's tricky. I don't think it happened all at once. I think I had started doing some writing on the side.

I was doing some like opinion, journalism and stuff, like vice about medicine during COVID and a little bit before. And then I was like, okay, maybe I will do this and I'll be like a kind of, I'll write a book and like have that route and do some medical practice, but also like be like a personality, like a pundit kind of thing. And then I thought, okay, no, I don't want to do that. Maybe I will be like an expedition doctor. maybe I'll be a doctor for like that consults on TV shows.

I was like tied to the doctor thing. And then after my second bout of burnout, which I think was in 2022, I was really ill. I had to go home for a bit. I was really depressed. I'd gone through like quite a nasty breakup. And something clicked in me then. I was like, I'm not happy. And I don't know.

The idea of going back to work made me feel really anxious. and I was like, I think work is one of the big problems here. And that was when I decided I was going to finish my novel. I thought, okay, maybe that's a career, which is kind of an insane thought, but I was really mentally ill at the time. And that's the year that I then ended up applying to the Mercky Prize and submitting my novel, well, my novel kind of idea and a sample of the book. And it got picked up, which all feels very, very lucky now.

but it actually wasn't until a year or so after that when I had won the murky prize, the book had been commissioned, and I was still working as a doctor, I was kind of trying to balance both. I went to Glastonbury and I was up too late many days in a row and I then went home

because my grandfather had passed away and I went to his funeral and we were on our way back from the funeral and I was underslept and overworked and grieving and I was very quiet in the back of the car and my parents were like, are you okay and I just burst into tears

and they were like, oh, it's okay, like is this about your granddad? And I was like, yeah, it is but also I don't think I can ever go back into a hospital again. And they were like, whoa, weren't expecting that. and they were very, very supportive. And yeah, after that, I don't think I did another shift. I think that was, I think in that moment, it, like, crystallised that I just could not actually do it.

After your, but after your second burnout, I want to just laser in on this for the listeners who, I think about, you know, changing careers in stages. Because that's what you did. You incrementally moved in. So after your second period, how did you make yourself go back to work? Like, what did that feel like? And when did you start writing for vice? How did that come about?

Yeah, it was strange because I knew I had taken this time off to kind of get better so that I could go back to work. But in the time that I was off, I was like, this isn't the job that I want to do. But I had bills to pay. And I had actually think I was in the process of buying my flat. And so I, like, actually just financially couldn't not work. And I couldn't do anything else at the time. Like, I didn't even know, like, how to get in contact with a recruiter or anything like that. Like, I didn't know what I wanted to do.

I didn't know what to do. So I kind of just went back, but with kind of this new freedom where I was like, this is a means to an end. Like, I have these goals in place for the next, like, six months or so. but I know that I want to move towards something else. I knew that I wanted to finish my novel. I knew that I wanted a way out of medicine. I started pitching to editors with ideas that I'd had.

I started like taking my writing practice seriously in my time off and treating it less as something that I did sometimes when like inspiration struck to something that I was going to actually. practice and get better at. And yeah, I think there was definitely a part of me that would just kind of avoided the stress and the negativity of my work situation so that I could get through it, which I think had various ramifications in my life generally. I think shutting myself down to the fact that I was really struggling was not very

good for my mental health. I, yeah, like, also throughout this time, I was drinking a lot. I was also taking a lot of drugs and have ended up getting sober. And I think a lot of that was related to this pressure that I felt about, one, just like the horrors of COVID that I was seeing and like the stress of the job, two, like, the external pressure of like not wanting to leave the job, feeling like I had no control over my life and I think I just try to ignore those things to block them out and and I don't think you can do that for long in a healthy way. I think when your body is telling you like when I think in

one year I had to take like two and a half months off work and with burnout when your body is telling you I can't do this you kind of you do have to listen. You're making me really think about how motivated you are when you're using something as the escape route. Because when I wrote my book when I thought I'd have to leave my job. And I wrote that in six months because I was like, this is your only. I couldn't, I was like, I'm not, I can't find another job. No one else will get it back. I now have a job I really love and a role I really love.

But I wrote that book because I thought I was going to have to leave my job. Yeah. And no one was giving me an interview. no one would even get in touch. And I'd said to my boss, I'm leaving at this point, I had a deadline. I was like, you're on your own, sis. You better come up with something now. Yes.

And when I'm thinking of all the different strands of the sort of the, what do people call it, the portfolio, the different strands of the portfolio, most of it's fear-based. Oh, yeah. So I do X, Y, Z to diversify the portfolio. because when the first thing falls through, this comes in. Yeah. And hopefully you love it in some way. Definitely, definitely.

But nothing motivates you like fear. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Like I, uh, having gone from like a, a well paid salary job now into a freelance, creative job, like, the wolves are at the door. Like, and like the cost of just existing is spiraling out of control. And like, writing books doesn't make that much. money. And like I'm in a very fortunate position. I own my flat and I had some savings from being a doctor. But the first, the transition period, and even now, like when an invoice is late or when

it's been a while since I've like sold something or written something, I'm very aware that like there is, there is a wolf behind me and it's coming. And so that's like, but that is better than how my life was before because I was always scared. I was always on the verge of burning out. I was always unhappy. I would wake up at 5 a.m. And I would, this is really depressing. But there was a time when I would set my alarm about half an hour earlier

so that I could get up, I would go to the gym, I would have my breakfast in the car on the way to work, and I would get to work, and I would have 20 minutes before my shift so that I could cry in my car. and then go wash my face like splash cold water to get rid of the puffiness and then go and start my workday. I have always been a big proponent of what I call the big three, which is if you're unhappy, you quit your job, you break up with your partner and you leave your city or preferably the country. and I always used to say this, like, all the time.

And then I did it. I quit my job. I broke up with my boyfriend, and I just, like, left the country and went to Mexico with, like, no plan. And not very much money. And I ended up, I was there, and I met a boy, obviously. And I went, I met him on my last night. I went to the airport, and they got to the front of the queue. And they were like, would you like to check in?

and I went, no, I'm going to stay. And I called my airline. I called my mom and I called my bank to tell them all that I was staying. I think I sent an email to my therapist as well. And I just stayed in Mexico for like an extra month. That boy and I are not together. He actually told me he just wanted to be friends when I stayed. But I did make some lovely friends.

but I yeah I used to think that that was the way to solve all my problems just like rage quit everything all at once and actually the year that I did it both my brothers did it as well so the lawyer quit his job the accountant quit his job they both broke up with their long term partners

and both disappeared off on various travels and my parents I think we're just like pulling their hair out because we all just rage quit at the same time. So interesting. Do you think it was a domino effect? Who went first?

So my brother had left his job first, and I think in part psychologically that gave me the strength to do it. He kind of changed into something that was, yeah, exactly. He changed into something that was sort of less precarious than freelance writing. He went like stepped sideways into finance

and so did my little brother. But I think like breaking that like taboo of like, this is your profession, it's what you do, just meant that all of us were able to do it. And it was that wave of kind of post-COVID career changes, breakups, it was all of that just like, from a complete lack of control to like, I have to find ways to control my life.

But I wish I could say that it made me happy to have done that. But once I got back from my travels and, like, started writing my book and kind of rose from the ashes of my breakup. I was still me, you know? I was still, like, unhappy in, like, lots of ways and dissatisfied with my life. And, like, I, as an avoidant girly, you can understand that at some point you get to the end of the road and you're still there. Like, it's you. Like, I'm the problem.

It's me. Not to quote Miss Taylor Swift. The jar. Where is this jar? One pound every time to get. When you reached that end of the road, though, was that only possible because you'd changed your career? Like you had tried all these things and then you were still there.

Do you think you would have still got to the place you are like sobriety in particular if you were in medicine? I don't know. I think it was strange. I think stopping medicine in some ways made my substance use worse because I lost structure. I lost the absolute need to be coherent and cognizant on a Monday morning. And so I kind of could kind of party whenever I wanted, drink whenever I wanted. And so I could. So I could party whenever I wanted, drink whenever I wanted. And so I, I think my using got worse. I think it was on a rapid track to getting really bad anyway. And I think I'm really lucky and really thankful that it didn't get bad while I was working as a doctor because that could have been really scary for patients and for myself. But I think it would have got there. And I think in some ways, losing that structure sped up those things.

But also I think I was forced to confront myself. and I was forced to confront it earlier. I think it would have all been a lot slower and probably a lot grimmer by the end. Whereas I, the freelance life and, yeah, having kind of run away from everything and then come back and still been unhappy, I think that like spread up the like internal searching

that I had to do and got me to where I am a bit quicker than it would have otherwise. When you talk to friends who professed, and happiness in their current careers, disciplines. How do you advise them? Like, what is the difference between being faced with an obstacle and knowing when to stick with something and what when you're actually like,

oh, that's ruining your life and this is how you get out of it? Yeah, I think the thing I look for is like how people talk about the job that they're in because there's a way. there's a real different to the quality of how people talk about their jobs when they're going through a rough time and it's difficult, like that it's hard, because some jobs are really hard at times, and how people talk about their jobs when they don't want to do them. And I think the difference from when they don't want to do them is almost this like defeated, kind of

lethargic way of relating to it. It's like, this is what it's like, and it's like, and it's, will always be like this and it will never not be like this and I don't have a choice here. Like so many of my friends who end up quitting their jobs or who I think should quit their jobs and talk about their jobs as if there is no alternative. Whereas people who I know who have difficult jobs who enjoy them or who have jobs and they're going through a hard time, they talk about it in like defined terms. It's like work is really hard at the moment or like this project is really demanding me or like I'm feeling kind of frazzled with like what I've got on my plate at the moment.

And it's like, I think when people get into this like job depression, you can feel it. It's that like it's always been like this. It will always be like this. Nothing will ever change. And there's like this kind of inertia and this like feeling of like being stuck. This like,

this like panicked but also like resists. designed to their fate, like a dinosaur stuck in like to like ooze. It's like, no, you can pull yourself out of this. Like, and I think, I think it's really scary, right? Because most of us in like, of our generation are one, two paychecks away from like having absolutely no money. so the idea of leaving a job that is paying you any amount of money like to cover your expenses without a plan is absolutely terrifying and I was only able to do it because I had a bunch of savings because I was locuming as a doctor and I was earning really good money and I was

I was working like 70 hour weeks which probably contributed to my burnout but there we go and I knew that if things got really bad, I had a financial safety net from my parents. Like, I come from a middle class background. I was lucky in that my, like, savings, like, did me well and, like, writing is working out for me. But I knew that I wouldn't lose my house if I took this gamble. I knew that I would be able to eat.

I knew that I'd be able to heat my house. Like, and these things are really important because, like, you can't just, like, romantically quit your job because you're not enjoying it if you have nothing to fall back on. Yeah, the class of it all is the elephant in the room, but it is also the thing that keeps people somewhere. So there's no one size fits all, but it is, as we talked about earlier, there is a insane motivation or like drive that comes when you feel the wolf at your door. And I'm not saying people should quit their jobs immediately. but it is something to consider do I want to live like this forever

do I want to be miserable in this house forever to pay for this house or is there another option but again there's no easy answer there's no easy answer but the class is a huge factor yeah and I earn half the money that I was earning before

I think and that has been a like slight shock to the system I'm in a huge different position financially to what I was before but my life is immeasurably better in the ways that matter to me the way I structure my time the way I relate to the world what I'm actually doing like with my brain I find it so much more rewarding and so yeah I think the things like materially that I had from from my previous career were amazing

and the place I live is a product of that, but I'm happier now earning less money doing something that I like than I was earning more money doing a job that I think would have killed me in the end. And I guess my last question on this before we move on to solving other people's problems is what was the unexpected changes from quitting your job? Was it friendships?

Was it, you know, what was the knock-on effect that you didn't think would happen that people, You haven't heard people really talk about. That's a really good question. I think something that I hadn't noticed, but that other people have said is that I am just way calmer. And I think that's like, kind of like seems like it should be really obvious.

But I don't ever feel particularly calm. Like my brain is always kind of whirring. I'm quite an anxious person. and I recently joined the ADHD hive. And so I never feel particularly calm, but a lot of people have said that I'm just a lot calmer and calming, I think, which is a nice one. I also do get a lot of people asking me about quitting their jobs

because I think I'm quite public about it. It's such a big 180 from like being a doctor to being a writer that yeah, often people will be like, help me, please. How do I quit my job? And so I just kind of, I end up having a lot of conversations about it because I do really think, even though I said it doesn't solve all your problems, I do think that if you are feeling really stuck and if you are struggling, you should consider quitting your job, breaking up with your boyfriend and going away just

for a little bit. See how you feel when you get back? I think that's good advice, not because it will solve your problem. problems because as you've pointed out, after you do all those major things and shake up your life, your problems will still be there. Totally. And it really, as you've said, shines the light on okay, this is coming, the call's coming from inside the house. Definitely. There's nothing like, being alone, away from your friends without like a partner to call and without like a job that is calling you back to make you realize that you are the problem and to like let it click what's going on

for you because when you're like unobserved you're not beholden to anyone or anything, suddenly you're beholden to yourself and you realize like what is actually driving you, what you're running from, what you're running to. I also do think it's funny, the calming thing because I said to you the other day, you were a very calming presence. Yeah. I find it, it's such a lovely compliment because I really don't think it about myself. And it's something that I really look for and admire in other people.

and so I'm very glad that that is some of the energy that I'm starting to give off. But it's ironic too because I wonder if, you know, in childhood, etc., maybe that calming presence was one of the reasons people said, you should be a doctor. Yeah, definitely, definitely. You've got such, and now it's coming back only after you quit being a doctor. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, my bedside manner, like, disappearing was one of the things that made me realize I had to leave.

I got really, I started to get really short with patients and colleagues and I could not find empathy. Like I just, I lost it. And I felt myself becoming this kind of like cruel, cold doctor that I never wanted to be. And that was another moment where I was like, oh, I have to leave this. Otherwise I will become someone that I don't want to be. God. God, I know there's going to be listeners you write in after this episode and say,

I just quit my job. Thanks. I've changed, I'm changing my life. It's time to go. Do it. Good luck to all of you. Yeah, good luck to you, special ones.

Okay, do you want to solve some more people's problems? I do. I've been waiting for this for my whole life. We need to get you back because we've got for a proper dilemma special so that you can just answer dilemmas with us. I would absolutely love that. But today we have one dilemma. This is our segment which is called I'm in big trouble.

And if you two in big trouble, you can send us an email to if I speak at navaramedia.com. That is, if I speak at navaramedia.com. What else do I need to promote? Crossed Wire's podcast, 4th of July, Sheffield, get some tickets via the Crossedwires Podcast Festival site. That will be fun. Okay, dilemma time.

Will, do you want me to read it out or do you want to read it out? You go ahead. Okay, right. Hey y'all. Long time listener here. I honestly don't know who to talk to about this, so I figured I'd reach out because I really love the pod. I live in New York City and I voted for Mam Danny. I'm not black, but I am a woman of colour and I'm a dyke, so I've been feeling pretty awful about Rama Diwaghi, his wife, using the N-word and using the F-slur in a derogatory way on her Twitter. It's been bothering me more than I expected. What's making it worse is that everyone I know seems to brush it off because she's. She's attractive and politically on the left. Like that gives her a free pass to be offensive.

Why do all elites end up feeling the same in terms of being casually bigoted, no matter how diverse or progressive they seem on the centre surface? Is real solidarity on the left actually possible? Would love to hear your thoughts from across the pond because it's radio silence out here. X-O-th, thanks girlies. New girls. X-O-X. X.O-X. Do you have any initiative?

thoughts who would you like me to go? Oh I think it's really tricky. Um yeah let you go and I will mull it over a little bit. As a person of F Slare experience I wanted to get your take on there. Yeah I think from what I understand about this controversy these are historical tweets that have resurfaced from maybe 10 years ago, if I'm getting it. I think she was 16. Okay. I say she was 16. And I think, yeah, the special one is concerned about people brushing this off, which I think

I understand that, definitely. I understand the idea that something is upsetting and offensive, right? And people minimize it. And the reasons listed there is what, because, she's hot and on the left and I think, again, that is a way to read this. But if I was held to account for everything that I said and believed and the way I acted when I was 16, I wouldn't really be able to sit with myself. I think I'm not saying I was kind of out here throwing all sorts of slurs around all the

time, but I do think teenagers, especially kind of, I don't know, more privileged teenagers definitely, but teenagers in general do say these things to shock, they do put stuff online, and it is really upsetting. I think, I don't think anyone's saying that using the N-word, using the F-sler is not offensive, and I don't think by saying, oh, it was a long time ago, oh, she was 16, that they're saying that that wasn't kind of inappropriate, but to hold an adult to account for the things they said as a teenager, I find that kind of a tricky area. What do you think? Well, okay, so the tweets that this writer was referring to, one of them said, hell, it said, hell yeah, end word super duper genius, excuse you,

and the F-sler one I did see it but I can't remember where to find it I think that was more a little bit ruder it was like something like this place is full of F-slers which all the F-sleres I know love saying that

when they're in a place no one is more homophobic than the gays no totally these tweets were from 2013 there were some other ones as about you know fuck Tel Aviv shouldn't exist that are being picked up and it's all being bundled together in the same package and I think you're dead on will when you say you know it's understandable that people today are still upset by this we can't really

police upset we can't say you shouldn't be upset by this but I think there's several aspects about this as you said the teenage nature is one of them the other thing is elites like Ramaduaji was not an elite when she wrote that she was just a random teenager in New York City. It's not coming, and I don't know if it's not coming from like a punching up, punching down situation the way it would be now. It's just like a teenager talking shit online. Is that, as you've said, Will, really indicative of her political positions now?

Is this something that is fresh? 2013 is a long time ago. And a very different climate. I don't, do you remember 2012 on Twitter, 2011? We had a account, one of the biggest accounts in the UK back then was called the Roy Kropper. And all it tweeted about was raping women and land culture. Yeah, yeah.

And calling people the worst slurs possible. And that was like the biggest account on Twitter. Tyler the creator was out here using slurs every day. Yeah, that's right in the center. Yeah. It was a very different media climate. And it was also like, I think, I think if that place was full of Fsler's, like, like, tweeting that is like mildly offensive, like as an Fsler, right? Like, I think there's a level of offence that people like to take. And I'm not coming for any special one in particular. But I think as we've moved through these like waves of kind of progression, like where we say like, no, that's no longer okay. And we sort of all agree, yes, that's no longer okay.

And as we like become adults and we mature and as the culture matures, and especially as we get into a time now where there's this real polarization where people are hateful and they are using those words in a hateful and deliberately harmful way, those words the weight that they carry starts to change. If you're using the N word now, it was never okay, but it becomes a lot more violent because it's now in opposition to like, like, wokeness or sort of like left-leaning liberal progressive ideals, that it wasn't as much back then. It's now a signifier of a rejection of those things and embracing the far right in a way that it wasn't at that time. And so I think if we judge the past with our sense of

now, we do end up kind of over-correcting these certain things. And as you say, I don't think that is reflective of her views now. I don't think she's necessarily going to be using the N-word freely or like saying, or the F-sler. Unless she's now at Al. Yeah. But I also think like there's a reclamation of certain words and the F-sler is one that certain people that aren't of that experience end up saying. Like I know that there are women who use that word around me and I don't mind. And I think the desire to be offended,

but also how that is weaponized by people who want to discredit voices, especially on the left, especially women, especially people of color. And as you pointed out, she mentioned Israel in some of these tweets and they're being bundled together. there is a concerted effort on the right and on the internet to discredit popular progressive voices. If you look at how people are coming for Zach Polanski, if you look at how people are coming for Zoramam Dhani, and just in general how when new progressive voices strike up,

there is a real desire to find as much dirt on them as possible to whip these controversies up, to discredit the voices. And I think this is another extension of that, because if you get people talking about what she said online 15 years ago, you frame the debate away from the policies that her husband is making, the progress, the sort of like surge in support of left-beaning ideas that's happening, and you focus on sort of like id-pol, historic language use, which actually doesn't really move the needle on the conversation in the present day at all. Yeah, and this is also why when the left try and use this tactic against the right, I'm very skeptical of it now. Like pulling up something someone tweeted in 2011 or 2013, there is a statute of limitations on using someone's words against them, unfortunately.

And it doesn't, you know, circumstances doesn't necessarily fully negate that. If someone's a 40-year-old saying something in 2011, yes, that carries more weight than someone being a, 13 year old or 16 year old saying something in 2011. But even then, I still think you have to go to them and say, okay, what's the comment, what's the views, etc., which reporting does. But it's not as powerful a weapon as people think. Using someone's words against them only kind of works if it's within like the last five years when it's still relevant because people do change.

And that's another thing that this letter writer kind of references. Why do elites all end up feeling the same in terms of being casually bigoted, no matter how diverse or progressive they seem on the surface, is real solidarity on the left actually possible? I'd argue that that feeling of like collapsing people into the same category is coming from you and that the bit at the bottom where you're saying is real solidarity possible.

Yeah, but only if you accept that people will grow and evolve and change. The left is not a collection of people who have perfect positions their entire life. The left is a collection of people with competing positions who will have done and said things that other people find offensive, whether that is fair or not throughout their lives, as my boyfriend's always saying,

like community is not with people that you like, community is with people you dislike. Totally. And solidarity in a left-wing coalition that's going to be effective at all has to have a plurality of opinion, has to have a plurality of voices. There's going to be people that you disagree with. Solidarity is not everyone agreeing.

Solidarity is everyone pulling in the same direction for a common good and a common cause. It's really different to everyone having the exact same politics and the exact same language and tactics as you is what do we want to achieve together and how do we do it despite our differences. Yeah. And is Ramadouaji part of pulling in the same direction now? You have to ask that question. And if the answer seems to be yeah, then you have to be like, okay, I'm upset about this. Why is that? Is this actually going to be used for in the long term to hold against it if my goal is pulling in the same direction? That's just, that's my take. Okay.

I felt like you, do you know what, the left lost a real good pundit with you. They lost a real good pundit. You would have laid that house down. You'd have been rinsed them on question time, but unfortunately you chose to go into a noble career and use your time. It's not my path. It's, you know how I feel about punditry now as a former pundit. Absolutely. They can't get me.

They can't trick me. They can't get me. They can't get me. They can't get me. They can't get me. They still get me. People still call me up, like the news channels and being like, would you come on and talk about this by-election? Yeah.

I might eat shit first. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like who is going to be there? Who else is going to be there? Who's on the guest list? Will I be pulling in the same direction or will I just be pulling in my own direction? Anyway, Will, thank you so, so much. Would you like to remind listeners when Sunstruck is out in paperback again?

Absolutely. Sunstruck is out on paperback on the 25th of June, I believe. it was the hottest book of last summer so we're going to make it the hottest book of this summer as well sorry to all the new releases Brat Summer is never over Never over It's Sunstruck Summer baby

Sunstruck Summer Part 2 Sunstruck Summer Part 2 Thank you so so much You have been listening to If I Speak with me, Moiloh Lodi-McClean And William Rayfayette, Hunter It's not Rayfayette, I said it right Yeah, you said it right, said it right

Rayfa I keep doubting myself I never doubt yourself, Moyer you're perfect I have such doubt. I have such doubt. William Rofat Hunter. Thank you, special ones. See you next week. Bye.

In the shadow of power in one of the richest cities on earth. A man dies, homeless and unseen. Julie Remish died in an underpass in Westminster, just metres away from the building to the government Britain. Around him were empty homes, dark, locked, untouched. How can someone lose everything in the heart of so much wealth? Follow that question and it leads to a hidden world of money, secrecy and power. A system that decides who gets at home and who doesn't. This is the kind of place for that relationship

between dirty money and the city and the kind of dark money that goes into a political machine kind of meesh. Where could this lead? Where does it end? What else can we become desensitized to? I'm Kojogh. Karam, writer and researcher, and since 2018, this story has haunted me. Death and Westminster is a four-part series from Navarra Media, produced by Planet B productions. Listen to Death and Westminster now in the Navarra Media podcast feed.