If I Speak - 118: Can a hen party ever be chic?

Episode Date: June 23, 2026

* We’ll be at Crossed Wires festival in Sheffield on 4th July! Final tickets: https://crossedwires.live * ‘Tis the season! Moya and Ash explore the etiquette of the modern wedding, from cringey hen do to lavish ceremony to nightmare groupchat. And how does anyone afford it?! Plus: are we expecting too much from single straight men? Send us your dilemmas: [e-mail] Music by Matt Huxley.

So you might feel that you've had more than enough of us for one summer, but just in case you are a thirsty, thirsty little piggy with your snout at the content trough, why not join us at Crossed Wires Festival in Sheffield on July 4th? You can get tickets at crossedwires. Live and there are going to be other live podcasters there as well. So just in case you want to add to your yapping diet, as well as if I speak, they'll be Blind Boy. There'll be bold politics with Zach Polanski and many more to boot. So go to crossed wires dot live and grab your tickets there.

Do you want to start or do I start? Where do we start? Well, I don't think it matters at this point. Welcome to the podcast. Do you know what you're here for? This is if I speak. I'm Ash Zarka. I'm Moyno, the McLean.

Sorry, I just scov my keys in my pocket. Just we're getting a bit of free jangling. Jingle jangle. You a little bit overstimulated, Moira. No How dare you accuse me I couldn't say I couldn't possibly say

People can make up their own minds as The truth will out Okay Truth coming out of her well To say Moira is overstimulated The truth is eminated Was it you the other day Who was saying to me about how

When people drink whiskey You can smell it When they get hung over No Oh well someone was And then my again this is another opening with my boyfriend so I went to

it's just because you're really in love don't worry it is but it's also because I see him a lot at the moment so because you're really in love he drank whiskey at party which he came home after me and the next day seeping out of his paws

just whiskey I got super drunk on Friday night what are we doing what are you doing you do? You know what it was just the weekend before I'd been really sick. So I had to miss all manner of fun. I had to miss two birthday parties, including my own partners, because I was so ill. And so I really wanted, I just had such phomo that I corralled housemate and husband and I was like, we are going out to eat a burger and get

drunk. And then we did that. And I was, you know, when you're drunk, you're just like repeating yourself and, you know, squinting, bleary-eyed at people. That was me. And then the next day I was hungover, but it was a beautiful hungover day. Did all the things that you should do? Did you watch the TV? First, before watching the TV, went to the farmer's market, got nice cheese, got nice bread, got some pastries, came home, delivered the bounty onto the household, and then watched TV, which is a perfect hangover day. Before we get into 73 questions minus 70, I want to say something about it. discovery. Oh, okay. I'm very excited. I have no idea where we're going with this. Get the nicest

bread you can afford. I've been on this. I've been on this wave every, because I do driving really early on a Wednesday and I deliberately now cycle back past a specific bakery to get my bread for the week. Get the nicest bread that you can afford because the stuff from the supermarkets is just packed with shit to extend its shelf life and like it made my belly feel bad whereas on Saturday on my hangover day which is traditionally a time where guts are no good yeah um for my dinner it was sort of like a late lunch I had a sandwich with this bread and because it's real food it kept me full until like lunchtime the next day and I was like oh that's real food. I've just eaten real food.

Yeah, real food. I've also gotten the real food wave. I'm eating a lot for Aalzo at the moment actually. Oh. Fresh Auzzo. Wowy. Yeah, really nice. I love an Azo. I love a giant cuscus. I do a giant cusus with a fake Otolenge situation.

Which is very nice. Anyway, okay, right. But yeah, I totally agree. If you can afford a nice bread, buy it. If you can make one. make it make it it will change your life um right first question of 73 questions minus 70 um which is our traditional segment where we do 73 questions but we take 70 off because we don't have time question number one which i had before you said this what is your secret shopping vice oh i mean the thing is that i don't i don't think of anything i do as a vice i just think of it as

nice things. I just, I genuinely don't, um, categorise any of my consumption habits into virtues or vices. I just think it's all part and parcel of living a nice life. Um, I'd probably say the thing which, um, really enhances my life to have in the shop, but it's probably not that good for me because of all of the studies done on the relationship between cured meats and cancer is mortadella. Mm. A lovable. The Clues in the name.

It's telling you what it's going to do to you. And I embrace it. Saying, see, stranger, seek me and enter, but fear the consequences. Mm-hmm. Okay. Mortadela. I like that. Right. Number two, quite a different vibe. Do you think the adoption of right-wing language... Has aged me. The rise of the right.

Cook, Cope, Chad. Sorry, I need more context for this question. Adoption by right wing language, by whom? By the mainstream. So everything from like a cook, cope, Chad. They all see words weirdly. Do you think... Do all those things like driving origins?

Or do they have different origins and then they were early adopted by the right? Yeah. Do you think they're repurposed by the right and then sold back? to the mainstream. Do you think that's aided them speaking in that language? I'm going to do something which is very not this podcast. Save that question for a main segment because actually, actually I don't feel I've got enough information to answer it.

I would actually have to get my head around. Where did these terms come from? When and how were they adopted by the right in order to be able to answer it? At this point in time, I cannot. Oh, I like that. Let's go linguistic one episode. Okay, fine. Next question.

What was next question? I had Al Pacino or Robert De Niro. Oh, okay. Well, I love both of them, obviously. Heat is one of my favorite films of all time, one of the best Cops and Robbers films ever, ever made. And what I like about Heat, as well as Val Kilmer Shooty-Shutie, Shooty.

So there's the like, shoot, shoot, turn, reload, shoot, which apparently was used to train US Marines because he did it so well. I love the fact that it's about two men and each one only has one other who understands them and is the man who is fated to kill him. And I think that that restaurant scene is actually a romance scene is what I think. So if you're making me choose between the two, You've got two performances. You've got that sort of like De Niro, like sitting in his seat, like, you know, poise. And you've got like Al Pacino who's very good at being antic.

He's a very antic actor. Also, fun fact about he was playing the detective as having a raging Coke habit, which is not something you ever see in the film. But my God, is it clear in his delivery? So you're asking me, oh, Al Pacino or Robert De Niro. Pacino. Do you think that we've lost the art of doing Greek tragedy just under, we've lost the Greek tragedy framework for modern stories?

Because everyone's a loving half man at the moment, and that's clearly Greek tragedy. What's Greek tragedy about it? I don't want to spoil it. I could spoil it, though. It's about two brothers who are their stepbrothers and their two sons. and they're two sides of the same soul clearly. And basically neither can live while the other survives and obviously fated from the get-go

to do terrible harm to each other. I mean, the thing is, is that Greek tragedy as a framework never goes away. Like, it never goes away, whether it's like revenge plots or use of foreshadowing or even that old cliche that the entire canon of Western literature

is about how you can never go back home. Never goes away. That's very Spider-Man Marvel. You can never go back home. No way back home. The Odyssey. Odysseus did it first. Right, let's move on.

This week we have a mystery question. Courtesy of mystery producer chow. I have put my phone on dingmode. Ding mode. That's what they call it now. You want to know it's crazy about my mum. She has her phone on loud constantly. That was a great timing. That was an incredible timing.

Wow. Okay. Ho, ho, ho. Okay. Tis the season. No, it's not. What? Tis the season. Okay. Can a hen party ever be chic? Please discuss with examples. It's not about, I don't, I've never been to a hen pie. Have you never been to a hen party? I've never been to a hen pie. I don't think it's about the hen party being chic though. I think can a hen party ever end harmoniously is a question I would ask. Okay, but

what does a harmonious end entail? Someone is always a sacrificial lamb at the hen party. Someone is always, that is part of the hen set up. Someone is always the black sheep of the hen party who has transgressed in some manner, who has been found to, this is a problem with group holidays. Someone, if there is a group bigger than I don't know. four, maybe even three sometimes, somebody's vibe is always found wanting, and they become the ousted chick. I'm going to say wrong.

That did not happen at my hen. What did you do for your hen? Okay, right. So the hen involved many stages. Stage one of the hen was go to a hamam with two of my friends and my mom and my sister. So you get, you know, scrubbed down from crown to toe. Then we went to get some lunch, the four of us.

Then we went to Rowans, where we did bowling, began drinking, and played a sort of like Mr and Mrs. quiz where like mine and Joe's answers had to match up. And then after that we went to a like basement bar somewhere in Dalsden where we met up with the stag because it didn't make sense to like split our friends by gender. And so then we combined parties and the revelry continued. And then we went to another bar and then at some point it was like, it is three in the morning and I can no longer spell my own face. But so, I mean, like, there may have been a sacrificial lamb.

I was not aware of it. The hen would never be, the hen would never be aware of it. But I just don't think there was. I think that there wasn't any beef or bad vibe that I can really remember in terms of, like, all of the friends. And I think that it's something about, like, it's a group of friends where like no one really is on the outside no one's really unknown like everyone's kind of known to each other and there's enough connection between people

who've never met to have a great time yeah um so i what do i think one i think the reason why it was successful was that like rather than it being here's the hen and his the stag and it being about separateness it really reflected something which is true about the relationship which is that we have a shared social world. Yeah. So like we had a bit of the day without each other, but it just didn't make sense to have parties without everyone being together. Two, it was very, I just don't, I don't like fancy things very much.

Yeah, so. I find that there's too much pressure to like it or too much pressure to have fun. Yeah. Whereas like it being just a certain level of, you know, a certain level. of, of, um, skuminess. Hmm. Is what makes me happy. So maybe it wasn't chic to return to the original question.

But I think in the fact that it wasn't trying too hard and it just let people have fun in the way that we normally have fun. Mm. It was successful. I think this is the problem. I think hen party shouldn't be chic. I think too many try and be chic. And when there's a financial pressure, that's when you get the sacrificial lamb.

So the ones I'm thinking about, ones that tend to be destination and, gender segregated. Yeah. And somebody is always like, can we change, can we itemize the bill? Actually, I have different dietary requirements.

Someone is always a pain to the running of the hen and they become the lamb. And they become the lamb because it's like, why are they not going along with the group? Why are they not doing group think? And I think the sheiky,

you try and make a hen. Obviously, if you're mega wealthy, I'm sure it would be whatever, different thing, There seems to be a lot of the aspirational culture around weddings and the hysteria around the marriage season and the marriage rituals means that people are trying to ape the weddings of the mega rich and go on these destination hens which costs 500 fucking quid to go on a holiday.

And I think the asks that are being made of people like, hey girlies, could you just give up, you know, like five days of your annual leave and come on this holiday. where you're going to have to spend it doing all these things, which the bride doesn't even really want to do, but we've planned for her because they'll be so fun. Because that's how we demonstrate that we're good friends. Right.

The scourge of WhatsApp organisation on friendships, and I'm going to say some shit now and this may be what gets me cancelled. Let's talk some shit. Women and non-men

tend to be the worst offenders, which is they think if they overly organise acts of ostentatious and visible care, that that means that they're a better friend. And it can be anything from a hendu to sort of, you know, oh, a baby has been born and like let's take over some food, is that it's overly engineered, not because that's actually what the situation needs.

I mean, people have been taking food over to each other's houses when they have babies since Paleolithic times. It's like, oh, let me just drop some welks around to next door's Kiev. Like, you know, been doing it since time. But it's a way of signaling your status in the group. And it is a particularly feminized activity in my experience. I think in general the performance of care via WhatsApp is just friendship via WhatsApp is a scourge.

It's a scourge. It's making me increasingly tired the way that friendship is conducted through WhatsApp. I think these Hindus often organised through WhatsApp. Back in the day, you just get a Facebook invite and you just turn up, you know? You just turn up. You're posting the walls. Just turn up. And you just turn up.

But now it's, you get so many different WhatsApp groups. It's like, this is when this is happening, X, Y, Z. And this is what we're going to do. and we're going to organise this. I feel guilty every year that I get a group birthday present from people because I'm like, we should stop doing birthday presents.

Just buy me a drink. Yeah, we should stop doing birthday presents because you're spending ever more money. Buy me a drink or like everyone goes out for dinner and you just exclude the birthday girl or birthday boy from the bill. Yeah. Keep it simple.

But the WhatsApp organizing, and also what's up just communication in friendships, how I'm in several group chats and it's just like talking about the minutia of our day is seen as somehow a substitute for time spent together. And I increasingly, it's obvious when people don't have time to do that anymore and we need to replace it with actually seeing each other

because it doesn't bring you close to that person. And I used to love voic notes. Voicenance was actually a plague on my life now. I don't have time. I don't have time to listen. Like, sometimes it's great. If, like, you're sending me a specific voice note every now and then fine, but I don't have time to listen to about 20 million voice notes.

I actually don't. And I don't think it's good for me to always be plugged into my phone trying to listen to a voice note. Back to the hen do. Sorry, this is the head. This is all about a hendoo. Back to the hendoo, possibly even a stag do. How would you feel if your partner went to a strip club on a stagdoo?

his own stag do or someone else's. Well, I know he wouldn't because this weekend we played a fun game which is if you were... First of all, we were like talking about stag and hendos because the city were in... It was Oxford, we were in Oxford, and there were loads of hendos around. And we were like talking about that and we were saying what we'd want to do for our hendos

but install stagdos and then we're like, if you organise one for me, what would it be? If I organised one for you, what would it be? But obviously, in the course of doing this conversation, we discussed nightmare stagdos and one of his nightmare stagdos was when somebody a stripper was hired for them

called a roly-poly stripper oh and that's the name that is apparently given to plus-sized strippers which I didn't know about I thought she was doing roly-poli-poly's yeah me too I thought oh my god gymnastic stripper no she probably was quite gymnastic

I won't go to the details of this story because he can he knows but today's supposed to say he's very not on board with strippers at stagdos

it's not his thing and he's he's not really a stripper kind of guy as well if I thought that you know

I actually if it was America I actually would be less bothered about I think go to strip club but I think

it's so bleak in the UK that I wouldn't really encourage that maybe but no I know what

his ideal stagdo would be and it would not be the strippers I also one of the reasons

we discussed it as well because we were like, we wouldn't let our friends organise it. Because I don't think a lot of friends are actually very good at organizing this shit. Like, just because someone's your best friend doesn't make them a good organiser or someone who can do an occasion, if your best friend is someone you can't even organise their own fucking birthday, why do you think that when it comes to your hendoo, they're going to step up to the plate and suddenly pull out some talent that you've never seen before in how many years of friendship and suddenly it's going to appear? No, you're going to end up doing something that they've

panicked into and it's going to be really expensive because they've panicked into it and you're going to smile throughout it but you probably won't have the best time whereas I'm like if I had a if I had a hendoo there's probably there's a couple of people who I'd trust to organise it one of them's me one of those my now partner and the other one I won't name but like I'd have to have a word beforehand before like to say what would you want oh easy like pretty much similar to yours. I'd want to have a really nice lunch. Not expensive, but just like a nice big lunch somewhere. Could even be at one of our houses and we'll bought buffet. And then I'd want to do karaoke. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Preferably karaoke at Mannions because I want to be in the

the scrappy environment. But I'll take, you know, I'll take another place. I don't really want to do the dolphin karaoke. I'll take somewhere. I'll do trade tall. You know, I want to just be somewhere. We all get to have fun and they all get to mingle with other people because I think that's one of the, it's a night out. And then. then I'd either do my own club night to ensure that the music was good or we'd go to a club night but I probably wouldn't even last that long. I'm an old maid like I'm tired a lot of the time so I'd want to go for a dance or something fun or yeah like there's a couple of club nights I'd be willing to go to but that's it like I just want nice food and a big collective

sing-along which is all humans yearn for and when it came to my partner I was like this is what I'd do for you and he was like that was pretty dead on so I felt very smug I've very strong. Sing-along is very, very key. I would say, like, if there was one thing that I've participated in for other hens slash stags, and it was really fun, go-karting. Laser Quest, go-karting. And obviously the rules are like, no one can be drunk whilst go-karting.

But let me tell you, everybody was. Everyone. Yeah, and it was great. I think something like that, or like arcades or if you go to, like, Brighton, you'd, do the arcades, something where there's a big sense of just joy and fun and like letting loose. But then I think coming back to the word chic, right? I think one of the things which has made a bit of a comeback is the celebrity wedding. And a celebrity wedding not merely being ostentatious and all the rest of it, but a celebrity wedding being chic. And that chicness

and that thing of a celebrity wedding be an expression of idiosyncratic and distinct taste. You've got Sophia Ritchie's wedding, which was sort of the, you know, it was the Manhattan project of quiet luxury, which then it ceases to be. It's quite loud. Quiet luxury, but, you know, herein lie the contradictions, Charlie XEX and, of course, most recently, Dula Peep. Dula Peep. You know whose wedding is not on the list of chic weddings?

Brooklyn Betam's. Brooklyn Beckham's wedding. What happened at Brooklyn Beckham? It was just, it was, the problem with Brooklyn Beckham's wedding is unlike his parents, he did not embrace the inherent tackiness. You know, they've, since the Beckham's wedding. The Beckham's wedding was tacky and gaudy. But they were wearing purple.

Yeah, and on their thrones. They were on their thrones. It was perfectly suited to the time. Brooklyn Beckham is married Nicola Peltz, who is the daughter of Uber billionaire Nelson Peltz. So much richer than the Beckham's. She wants to be chic and lux, but she's not, because she wants to be too much. bad. She wasn't too bad. So their wedding was just a

fiesta of bad taste. And then it eventually led to the schism in the family that means Brooklyn Beckham has left because he accused his mother of inappropriately dancing with him at the wedding publicly. And now they are estranged from the Beckham family. Wow. But what do you think? Do you think there's a meaning to this emphasis on chic in weddings as a cultural preoccupation?

Okay, if you actually boil down the wedding, I don't actually think it's about chic anymore, it's about cool. So I read an interesting feature in New York Magazine recently about how Vogue, was it in New York Magazine? Yeah, I must have been. How the Vogue wedding, trying to get a wedding in Vogue, has become the ultimate goal for brides, in America at least.

And even while Vogue itself is sort of on a decline in cultural conversation and status, the Vogue wedding is on the up. because the wedding as a spectacle is now one of the places where people can show all of their taste. It's like the architectural digest tour, but of your relationship. But it's actually of your style.

And who you can pull in. And so to get in Vogue, you have to hire a certain photographer who you know has been in Vogue before. There has to be certain sort of like suppliers that you use because you know they're more favourable. You don't know if they're going to use the pictures until after they've been taken.

so that's why you have to get the special photographers. There's so much prep that goes into a wedding that wants to be in vogue. Just months and months and months. It's like a martial campaign. And I guess the wedding itself has become such a selling point for both influences, but also all new people who, you know, as we've all become brands in our own right, the wedding has become one of the major points that you can sell your lifestyle to other people. Do you want to know what's so funny about this?

is that so obviously I wrote an article about getting married for Vogue and they asked for my wedding pictures and I said no you refuse which would have been hilarious the idea that there are these like very very rich celebrity connected people dying to get their wedding in Vogue and I was like no I don't have the photos but it's a really interesting piece and it's just sort of like

it compares do you remember Emily Weiss Glossier founder oh yeah yeah yeah she did 10,000 worth of wedding prep in 2016 and that went viral. That looks like small peanuts now. The £10,000. I read a blog of someone recently on Sub-Sysk, just an ordinary woman, sub-Sysk woman,

£30,000 on wedding prep. Jesus Christ. Months and months and months of preparation for this wedding. And so I think it's, like weddings itself have become work and relationships are now, I guess, the product is. of the work you put in, but that work is often like aesthetic only. It's, it's a really, I don't know how to exactly articulate this, but there's something about

the wedding and being an opportunity to show your body, your money, your choice of partner, your happiness encapsulated in one occasion. And Charlie X, the X's wedding was chic, but only because it was cool. Mm-hmm. It was very cool. And it's been interesting watching these celebrities do. their town hall marriages beforehand. That's become a thing as well.

Like they obviously, they probably could get married in a different country, but I guess it's easy to just go to the town hall. That's not why it's now become a mark of cool. Yeah. That's the only reason why it's sort of like, you know, I'm a local girl, really. Yeah.

They're on the town hall steps getting married. So Jula Pippa's done it. Charlie has done it. Loads of influences do it. Like I see lots of wedding picks. I think Grace Beverly did it. She went to the tower. She went to the registry office first.

And I get there. there is something I think about when they have destination weddings. It is easy to do at Town Hall, but it becomes that you get several occasions as well. You have the registry outfit and the registry occasion. And then Deweepa's party, she had three days in Palermo. They had a pre-wedding party. Everyone was looking at the looks. We haven't seen the weddings photos yet because they've definitely have been sold to Vogue. But then you saw her post-wedding breakfast and all of that stuff was bridal. Like I remember when Grace Beverly got married. And honestly, months and months and months of wrapping her marriage into her brand, Tala.

So it was like Tala had a wedding collection, this bridal collection. It was like her exercise routine that she did to lose extra weight for the wedding. It was her super green skin routine that she did. Like there was so many branding opportunities wrapped into this occasion of prep. And it does look quite, you look back at Emily Weiss and what she did for her wedding, where she said she felt eight out of ten on the day. Like what have weddings become? And I think because of that, there is going to be a, you know, it's funny thinking about like how much money is spent on the wedding now and we're nearer of like such.

If I ever got married, I'm like, where on earth would I pull 10,000 pounds up my ass? You don't need 10 grand for a wedding. What is what I mean? We did like, like we did not spend 10 grand on a wedding. I think like all in all, and this is like including everything like. food, drink, venues, blah, blah, blah. Probably came to like 1,500. That's great.

And like, the dress was 15 pounds. The dress was 15 pounds and it was from Zara. Because like, I'm not saying this to be like, and this is a new way to be cool. I'm saying this in terms of, I was really excited about the marriage. Still am. Still am excited about the marriage.

You wake up every day and I'm like, I'm married to you, motherfucker. Can't get ready. I don't know where people are getting the money for it. parents and debt. And I think there is this thing of going, is it the house or is it the wedding? And I think that there is such,

I think last week we were talking about the difference between consumerism and addiction and thinking about the function of fantasy and consumerism. I would say that wedding is still consumerist relations. If you buy certain things, if you make it look a certain way, it's something which establishes your perception in wider society a different way and that's nothing new that's not something which is a feature of the internet age

you know that goes all the way back to society weddings but as you said one of the features of modern consumerism is that things that were the preserve of celebrities now become an expectation for ordinary people and I think that it interacts with gender in a really particular way, which is the moment of a woman's life is when she's publicly chosen by a romantic partner. And the thing is, is that I don't want to dismiss that out of hand. I think that there's something really important about that. Just for me, the thing which is important and good about it is that you're inviting your community into what already is a private bond, becomes a public bond. But where this thing works and the emphasis on beauty and aesthetics is because

fundamentally we still think that women need to be beautiful in order to be chosen. It's really funny because when I think about prospective wedding, I'm like, well, that would be me choosing my partner. Like, that would be the occasion, which is probably why I don't see the need to spend loads of money on it. So I'm like, that's enough, surely. I'm not going to say who because they'd be very upset with me, but they were frustrated for a while that their partner wasn't proposing.

And I was like, well, if you want to get married, wouldn't you propose? And she looked at me like I was fucking insane. Because it defeated the purpose. The point was to feel chosen by a proposal, which is a surprise and oh my God. And she gets to feel like, oh, you know, I've been plucked out of obscurity rather than together we've made a choice to get married.

Well, this also was interesting, not to blow up my partner's spot too, but we already discussed stuff like long term, you know, marriage, moving in, things like that. Like that's already on the table as a discussion point. It's not to say we'll do it, but we're at the age where, you know, if you discuss that and you're thinking about that

and you're considering this person seriously, it's just like, obviously we're going to have to discuss this together. I wouldn't imagine that if he, we always talk about wedding rings. We were like, would you wear a wedding ring? And I was like, you know, he was like, because he loses stuff all the time. I was like, I bet you'd lose it within the first week.

Like, what's the point? Did you don't take off? Why would you take it off? Well, it's also just like, he doesn't like wearing rinks because he doesn't look good on his fingers, he says. So it's not really his thing. He would do it. But I'm like, would I want to wear a wedding ring?

No, because I like wearing other jewelry. I'm not sure I would want to wear the wedding ring. I'm going to be really annoying. Yeah, go on. You say that now. So my partner was very much like, okay, we'll do the wedding ring thing because that makes you happy, but I'm not going to wear it all the time. I'm not going to wear it all the time. I don't want people to interact with me first and foremost as a married man.

I have an independent identity. That thing has not been. off since the day we got married, which is coming up to three years ago now, apart from the odd occasion for playing sports, because he plays a form of handball where he was like, I don't want it to damage my lovely ring, but this motherfucker doesn't take it off. You're looking at it now as, like, it's still sort of abstract, right, because it's devoid of the thing that happens, right? At the moment, the thing like, you know, you say the bows and you sign the paper and whatever you go, maybe we'll do that, maybe we won't.

But it doesn't become imbued with the meaning until you do it. And then the thing, like, you know, the ring that goes on the finger, it becomes indelibly attached to that memory and that thing that you did and this kind of inflection point, this life-defining thing that you do. And you may well feel really different about it. Because right now you're thinking, it's a ring, do I like to wear a ring? or not. Whereas actually after you get married, it's not a ring. Like, it could be a fucking tiara.

Like, it could be an anklet. It could be anything. But the fact is it's the object which is tied to the commitment that you made. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny. I didn't used to think about getting married at all, really. And now you're in love.

Yeah, but even with my last partner, I think things were never settled enough to be. really think. And I was as a baby. I was a baby. But it's, but because of, you know, my age and current partner, it's something I'm thinking about more, like, you know, commitment in that sense. And it doesn't seem scary at all, but it does seem like a decision that would be made mutually. It doesn't seem like something I'd just wait to be picked for. It's like, we discussed this beforehand. And maybe that doesn't seem romantic to people, but to me, it's like, do you want to be on the same page? I'd like to be on the same page.

No, like the process leads out. There was nothing romantic about our engagement whatsoever. Like it wasn't. Like one, we were in, to go back to Jordan Stevens, who was, of course, a guest on the pod, we were in the power struggle phase of our relationship. So it was post-COVID, post-lockdown. Everyone around us is breaking up all polyamorous, right? It's a time of real crisis generally in the romantic landscape. And we are in a tug of war about what do we want, what does a relationship look like,

what does commitment look like? And the idea of getting married, he was less keen on than me. And I think that there was still a part of him, which felt a bit like, can't put a tiger in a cage, baby. There was something about it, which spoke to a lack of freedom. And for me, there was a thing of,

if you're serious about a life with me, right? We make this commitment and we make a vow, which is even if we're not religious, sacred. Right? It's actually a really sacred, important promise. that we're making together. It's not like, well, you know, day to day, we happen to still be together, right?

It's like, actually this really important thing. And I think he viewed me as someone who was like, oh, you just want to feel chosen, right? You want your moment, like, princess bride and da-da-da-da. So, like, the idea of getting engaged, like, there was conflict in it. And we got there and we agreed, and he was like, I want to do it,

but maybe we should, like, essentially elope. And I was like, do you know how mad my family would be. And he was like, okay, well, maybe we can do it

really small. And then we're like, fine, we'll do it really small. And then it got bigger because we then were like, okay, well then if this person's there,

like, you know, if we're doing it with like all the people who are most important to us in the world, then it has to be this big. And now, you know, now he's the world's biggest wife guy.

Like, like he is. But I think that it was, and this, interestingly, I think relates to the dilemma that we should, address in not too long.

If I had romantic expectations of an engagement, I think I would have had a much more luxurious, nice, aesthetic, romantic wedding probably would have had a worse marriage. I feel like that's a great way to end this dilemma, which started on hen parties and ended with, how do you make a commitment? It wasn't a dilemma, it was a question, it was a mystery question.

How do you make a commitment and how do you... I think there'll be people out there who, you know, wholesale or reject our pragmatism. And that is fine. Your marriage is your marriage. You know, I'm not even in a marriage. But a marriage is not a wedding. A marriage is not a wedding. And also, times are tough economically. Like, I can't look at 10 grand and think, yep, that's fine just for venue. I haven't got that 10 grand for venue. That 10 grand needs to go in our life. Also, let me just say, Clissault House, which is where we got married, run by Hackney Council, reasonably priced, really beautiful. very beautiful.

It just pissed it down with rain on the actual day but you had your big gazebo you had your gazebo oh yeah the one that we built just all that like pulling on counterweights I felt like you know that's seen in Pocahontas when the men on the ships are like heaving ropes that's how I felt the day before the wedding

that's a real community wedding a real community wedding shout out to the Russian woman who forcibly waxed my toes have I not told you the story no oh my god I can't have I've got to tell you this on the pod before. So day before the wedding, I'm getting a pedicure with my best friend. This Russian woman who's, you know, the way that Russian women are so together, right?

Like everything, every hair is perfect. She's like, oh, you're getting married. Pulls out, I shit you not. I'm not stereotyping this happened. Pulls out a bottle of vodka from underneath her desk. She's like, we drink and I was like, ah, you're alright. She goes, just me then. So she starts drinking. And she's showing us photos from her wedding where she was in this like, you know, floor leg, body hugging silk gown. But also, like a white fur hat and a white fur stall and all of this. And so she's painting my toes and she notices that I have some hairs on the knuckle of my toes. Who does not?

As do we all. And she goes, you know, you're here. Here on your toes. And I was like, yeah, I do. And she was like, I cannot. I will not let you get married with hair on your toes. And I was like, no. I mean, I'd prefer to just leave it.

And she was like, why? You know, why you do? I was like, actually my, my fiancee says that he thinks they're. cute. He thinks that, you know, they're cute, hairy toes. And she looked to me dead in the eye and she went, me and the lie. Since then, since that day, me and the lie has become part of my vocabulary. She put the wax on my toes without my consent, and there was only way, one way in which it was coming off. Do you, did you like them hairless? No, I didn't think, I didn't, I don't, I don't, I neither think about them being hairless or hairy, right? They're just fucking toes. Like, um,

But, well, look, I wasn't, I wasn't wild about being forcibly waxed, non-consensually waxed. But I suppose it makes a better story than going to get a pedicure and only the services that you paid for and asked for being done to you. Who would want that? Who would want that? Right. Should we go solve someone's problem? Right. This is, I'm in big trouble.

If you're in big trouble, email us. At if I speak at Navaramedia.com, that is if I speak at navaramedia.com. I'll read this one. You can go first. Great. Dear if I speak, I'm a massive fan of the podcast and thought you could offer me some no-nonsense advice. I'm in my late 30s and have been single for a few years. I would love to meet someone and eventually start a family. I use the apps on and off and have the same experience of them as everyone else. they are a merry go-round of disappointment and unkindness. Nothing good comes of them.

At the start of the year, I had an update with a man I had high hopes for. We felt politically, culturally, and intellectually aligned, but I wasn't what he was looking for. I got a bit of a sense from him that I was being judged as slightly inferior as he was a bit too cool for school, and I can be a bit of a cringy dork.

I love you, cringy dork. All the people are like are cringy dorks. I suspect I also wasn't quite politically radical, enough for him. I think I knew this, but I was really disappointed when he didn't want to see each other again. On reflection, a lot of this disappointment was because I was hoping this man could affirm an ideal image I have of myself, but it's left me feeling vulnerable about those qualities. I never encounter thoughtful, attractive men who read, who think about what they read and how it relates to the world around them. I usually encounter men who make zero effort with their

conversation slash appearance, who aren't particularly interesting, who don't show curiosity, about me or the world are shy of commitment and definitely not feminist. I don't meet men I'd ever feel confident or comfortable enough to share some painful personal experiences with. I was sexually assaulted about 10 years ago and while I don't think it defines me, it shaped my experience of the world in quite an important way. So I would hope to share this experience with a partner one day. But disclosure has never gone well so far. Men can't handle it. Anyway, dating is a disappointment. I recently met someone through a mutual friend and we found an immediate and undeniable attraction. I'd been out with him a few times and had fun.

He's solid, a pleasant bloke, but I'm already sure we don't have the deep political, intellectual alignment I think I'm looking for. I enjoy his company. He's also gorgeous, which is nice, but I feel quite sad that this isn't the full package. It sent me back to thinking about the app guy, which is destabilising and unexpected. I know there is nothing here and no point in thinking about it. I feel these men are at two extremes of the scale, and neither are going to be the man or type of man I'll be settling down with. But time is short and the dating pool are small. Does it matter how intellectually aligned I can be with someone if they offer other

things? Is it a lot to expect of a single man? Attraction, care, thoughtfulness, a degree of intellectual matching? I know not one single person who can offer all these qualities and I know I will have to compromise. I'm also getting very tired of trying to sustain hope and positivity about possibilities for future relationships. I know you can never predict these things, but it leaves me feeling quite desolate and despairing. It's painful. Anyway, that's the ramble.

Sorry, it's long. I'd appreciate your wise words. Am I just getting in the way of myself? Thank you. Special one. No, it's not a lot to expect all those things of a single man. I think I have it. I think Ash has it.

I know lots of people who have it. But I also really empathise with your position, because I've said this before. When you're out of a relationship, it's like having a cold. when you're in the relationship, when you're in love, you can't remember what it's like when you could breathe normally. And I'm going to do it this way around deliberately

because I don't want to imply that being in love means you have a clear airway. You can't remember what it's like. When you're out of the relationship, you can't remember what being in a relationship is like or being in love is like or having someone where you see all these things is like. But I think the key is sort of to... It's really hard because you go through cycles as a single person

and if you're looking for love through despair and through hope and all of those things. But I do think it is a self-fulfilling prophecy when you think to yourself, I'm never going to meet someone like this, and you chalk it up to randomness and bad luck and that you've got all the bad luck in the world and that you are just doomed to be alone. Because I think that makes you, true or not, I think that makes you less likely to be open to,

the people that you actually might find these things in. I think the problem, I don't know you well enough to actually say whether this is the problem, but the problem that I had was, I was, think I was looking for, to fulfill a type of person according to an audience, an onlooker. And so I was looking for a type of person according to a set of, you know, I had my markers, I want them to be attractive, funny, all this and that, but I had specific marks in my head about what that would mean and who that would impress and what that person would then look like as a result.

And I don't mean look like just physically. I mean what package they would come in and where they'd come from. And it was only when I sort of opened myself up to going on dates with people that I felt some degree of interest. So I, how do I describe this? So before I met my partner, before I went to therapy, I was going on dates with people from apps who on paper seemed like they would be good matches for me. And I was choosing the on paper.

And then after I went to therapy, I started thinking, hmm, I should just go on dates with people who I find interesting and leave it from, you know, sort of leave it from there. Try not to have any other expectations other than in the initial reach out. Have I felt interested? Have I sensed any red flags? No. Okay. You know, are they too parasycial? Are they too full on?

Blah Blah, blah, blah. Those all red flags for me. Okay, fine. Just go on the date. Just go on the first day and see what happens. And you might be friends. You might have a romantic connection. But the fundamental, you're just going to meet someone and see if you can have a good chat. And when I did that, within, I would say, when did I start deciding to do that? I'd say within three months, I'd met my now boyfriend.

And he is nothing like the type of person I imagined, but he has all the qualities of what I actually wanted and needed. Like, he's so, it's not, I won't go on. He's so smart. He's so caring. He's so thoughtful. We laugh. We're really aligned on a lot of important things.

We differ on things that are also equally important. So there's, you know, the right kind of friction there. But if I put on an app, would I have swiped right on him? He thinks no. Probably no. Probably know there would have been something I'd have found wrong with it. It, wrong with him and wrong with his profile. I think that this idea that the men you're meeting,

there's two extremes. Are they extremes? I don't know if they are. You've met one man who you felt reflected the ideal that you wanted and didn't want you. Well, you weren't actually a match. He's just an ideal. You can't match with an ideal. and the other man that you're dating is someone that you like

you just like him a bit but I think if you're dating in London as well there's something I have noticed both through dating and through friends in that because there is there is I think a commitment phobia in London of even getting on a date so it feels scarcer to even get on the date in the first place and that scarcity mindset means that the people

that you normally meet during dating who just be like I had a fun time we had a couple of fun dates and then we left it there become maybe they're the one because they're the closest I can get to to meeting, you know, certain criteria. Fundamenti, does he make you feel good? Are you happy when you're out with him?

If you're not feeling totally satisfied, I would politely end it, is my advice. I agree with you on almost everything. Go on. So I'm going to focus on the bit that I disagree with you about. I don't have 100% fulfillment from my partner, or put it differently. I have fulfillment,

but if there were other things that I want it, I wouldn't have 100% fulfillment. And the really big one is kids. So I don't think I want kids, right? Pretty sure I don't want them. I've never really had a feeling of kids of something that I want in my life. And occasionally with my partner,

I get that sort of biological urge to merge. I'm like, imagine if our genetics were embodied and one thing. And that's, you know, like, you know, get that occasionally. But in terms of like wanting a child, wanting to be a mother for its own sake is something for me rather than as an expression of love I've never felt that. And I think that in so many ways he's obviously the whole package for me, right, the person I am.

But if I'm looking for the whole package which would include having a family, no, he would not be that guy and he would be the one to tell you. And that's not just about him also not really wanting children. He would be the first to admit it that there is a, I'm not saying self-centered, in like an obnoxious way, but sort of like self-orbiting. He can be really in tune with what it is he wants to do at any given moment.

In ways which sometimes are frustrating. Sometimes I'm like, can you please clean the kitchen before you go out for the weekend or whatever? Like, find that frustrating enough now. If you had a kid in that mix, like, that's how people's clothes to get thrown out of windows. Do you know what I mean? So what I'm suggesting is this, is that I've very, successfully found someone who is romantically fulfilling for me, right? He's got the things that I want for someone to make me feel like I have the right partner

for me in tune with the things I want. If I was dating with a view to form a family, to have kids, I would probably be looking for different things. So when you're saying, is this all too much to look for in one man? This is actually the thing which I disagree with you about, which I think date with a view to family formation and dating with a view for romantic fulfillment, I think, might be different. So the partner I have is a fabulous partner for a woman that doesn't want kids, for a woman that wants kids. And this isn't only to do with his desire to have children.

It's also got something to do with these other qualities. All the things which I find so thrilling, exciting, amazing, political commitment, intellectual, sort of advent, adventure, curiosity, the fact that he interrogates absolutely every prior, the fact he wants to go places, do things, da-da-da-da-da. I think would actually, unless he adapted significantly, would probably make raising a child a very lonely, very gendered, very isolating experience. I'm not saying he can't change, I'm saying, like, if all those things were the same. And so I think that there is something about, like, dating in the... the modern day is so much about the romantic fulfillment piece.

And dating in the past was too much about family formation. It was like, you guys don't need to like each other in order to have babies. I mean, it was obviously crazy. But I do think that there are some choices that you have to make special one about what is the kind of fulfillment that's most important to you. Is it having family in the future becoming a parent? Or is it this other kind of romantic fulfillment?

Because that really tells you what you should be looking for. If you're dating for family formation, it's what is the level of alignment I need to be able to love someone? And will they make a good father? Will they co-parent in the way that I want to co-parent? That might not be the same as being super-duper intellectually stimulating. I would join, I would use the time that you have on the apps, which you say you repeatedly find unfulfilling, to join various spaces or put yourself in spaces where you can meet new people because that's the only way, meet me, meet me, people. people you're aligned with who will have friends who might align with you because that's the

only way you expand your social circles to meet potentially partners. Like you've met someone through a friend and you had an immediate and undeniable mutual attraction. That will happen again. Sounds pretty good. You have to put yourself in those spaces I have found. Life is all about tradeoffs and choices. I do think my partner would make a good dad, but then again we don't want children, so I would just say that, wouldn't I? Also, you're so down bad right now. Yeah, right now. When does the power struggle bit kick in? I want to get to that.

You don't know, but it'll happen, but you're down bad right now. It's beautiful to see. And then... So annoying for listeners. No, and then you're going to be down bad again. Like, I had a real, real, real down bad moment the other week where I was feeling so in love, I was like, what if I changed my name to his surname? And I came back and he was like, don't do that. Don't do, you don't do that.

But you could do something where you like start trust or whatever. I'm not touching the name. It was just, it was an experience. It was the same thing of like, oh, I love you so much. Like, imagine we had a human being. That was a mix of like your face and my face. Wow, I love you.

That's what it was. So the down bad will come back. But it's beautiful to see. I love, I love. I love seeing people in love. It makes me very happy. Yeah, I'll enjoy it while last because everything passes. This two shall pass.

And at some point you've got to get real and start having the tools together. Oh, but don't go. Don't go looking for trouble. It'll come in at zone time. Oh, I don't go looking for trouble. That's what I mean. It will come at its own time. it's hard to advise you because I don't want to sound patronising

and I know how annoying it is when people in relationships are like, you'll find someone, but I do think there's small things you can do to make yourself less despairing about finding someone. And also maybe don't commit yourself as it's like, right now it's your job to find someone. You've made it your job. If I did a job where every day I felt like I was failing, I'd be really miserable.

And my advice is have in your mind what is most important to you. You might get it all. You know, I'm not saying that you can't get both, but I'm saying you have to know for yourself what's most important. Yeah. Great advice. Great advice, Ash. Okay.

Good luck. Let's know how it goes. Do you think we should start misconnections again for summer? I don't know. Yeah. Maybe. Bye. Bye.