If I Speak - 121: Is it time to stop height-shaming men?

Episode Date: July 14, 2026

Ash and Moya answer a not-so-mystery question about male self-image and whether short kings really do lose out in the dating market. How does modern masculinity look and dress? Plus: advice for a listener fantasising about a romantic spark with a former colleague. Send us your dilemmas: [e-mail] Music by Matt Huxley.

Ash is going to be sexy today and I'm going to be nasally and whiny. I don't be as sexy as possible. Did you hear that like post-match interview with Harry Kane? No, I didn't listen. Harry Kane, a man who looks like a hamster made a wish to be human is what I think about Harry Kane, who looks like he died in the song. Yeah, he does look like that. He's, I respect the fact that our one of our leading footballers doesn't have anything in his

brain apart. But that's why he's so good at taking penalties. Because he's not thinking, right? People take penalties badly when they're thinking about it. Whereas for Harry Kane, it's like, not a problem. Because there's no thoughts. No thoughts. Right.

Hello. Welcome to if I speak. Maybe that's a cold open. That was a cold open. Are you kidding? That was a bonafide cold open. That was, I know. Ice cold open.

Yeah. This is a podcast for the Ruminators and new erotics and overthinkers amongst you. We're here to validate all your worst impulses. I'm Asharka and you are. Moyalathan, I've got a stiff neck today. I've got a stiff neck. Yeah.

What ails you? That's my question, number one. What ails me? Wait, wait, this is 73 questions minus 70. Our regular icebreaker segment. So we ask 70 questions, but 73 questions, but we forget 70 of them. Anyway, my first one is, what ails you physically, spiritually, generally, pick one. I'm not feeling very ailed today.

Like, I am shaking off a bit of a cold, hence the husk. But I don't feel ailed because I woke up this morning. We're speaking on Tuesday the 7th of July. I woke up this morning to the news that the USA had been spanked by Belgium, which as a friend of mine said on Twitter and she is Congolese otherwise this would be absolutely horrendous said that she'd never seen Belgium put belt to ass like this since the Congo free state.

That's outrageous. That is outrageous. That is an outrageous thing to say, but what is this anti-woke era if we cannot say things like that? She also said when they were bringing on Docu as a sub was because they know through ancestral memory that it is not enough to take a hand

you must also take a foot. That's absolutely horrendous. So I actually don't feel very illed. I don't feel very old. But you've got a stiff neck, anything else? No, no, no, this is not my, it's not questions for me. These are questions for you.

So question number two. Okay. What is your biggest bug? These are pessimistic questions. I'll go do a nice moment. What's your biggest bug bear when you're in a city? What's my biggest bug bear? Because I've thought of one this morning in the city I'm in.

I don't like people being rude to me and I can tell they're being rude to me because I'm not white. I mean, that's racism. What you're saying there is your bug bear is racism. Yeah, but the thing is, is that like it's actually at a level which is like, if you call me a slur, fab. Fab, fab, fab, we all know, we all know where we stand with that. Whereas when you're just being like kind of,

down lower, cunt to me. And I'm like, just call me a packie and get it over with, man, this is exhausting. I think,

I mean, you're talking about insidious racism, which, yeah, let's call that a bug bear. I definitely think you, it qualifies as a bug bear.

It might qualify as some other things as well, but it's definitely, it bugs my bear. It bugs my bear. It bugs your bear. It bugs your bear. Okay,

insidious racism. Because I was thinking about city's design for cars, but I think insidious race might, you know, might trump that. So, So insidious racism, let's go with that.

Okay, and third question. Also car centricity. Carcentricity. No, you said insidious racism now. That's your choice. That's your lived experience as well. But I also don't like, I also like walkable cities. Mine is like, mine is like,

oh, I don't like it when I have to cross several roads and I get confused and then somehow I end up on the side of the dual carriageway. Whereas you're like, well, when I go to cities, people treat me quite bad. badly at times because of the color of my skin. So I feel like that does show the way I'm able to move through cities because I am of ambiguous ethnicity.

I could be ambiguous. I mean, I could be Sri Lankan. You are ambiguous in the sense that I'm pretty sure the races have no idea where your brownness is from. No, it's like which flavor of South Asian are you? Which flavor? And I'm ambiguous in the way that people will think like, French?

You Italian? Are you Brazilian? And then when they find, Sometimes they find out I'm not as Jamaica and their faces drop and then not as interested anymore because that's really boring and also when you're in certain countries. I always think this when you're wearing your Crip bandana like you're doing now, which is a blue paisley bandana.

I was like, ah, Sicilian? Yeah, I give Nonna. It gives Nonna. No, I wasn't thinking Nonna, I was thinking like hot Sicilian woman, putting out the laundry and then it's like, wha-wabba. Yeah, depending on my hair style, my ethnicity does change quite. a lot. Whereas I think when you are of a visible

ethnic demographic, people are like, right, I know immediately where they're from and I don't like that one. I don't like that one. None's mistaken me for Italian in a hurry. Well, when they get Georgian Maloney out, maybe the Italians will finally brown up. Right.

Okay, third question. I was going to ask another pessimistic one but I feel like I need to come up with an optimistic one now. Ash, will the sun come out tomorrow? Yeah Look at the weather forecast you div I'm in Leeds No my third question is

When you conclude this summer What is one thing you want to have achieved I don't think like that That's funny It doesn't have to be like a goal It can be like a Oh I want to you know I want to shake ass at once

At least this summer Arse shaken Olive oil gelato Eating it Do you live in the moment I feel like maybe you are living in the moment. In some ways I really do. In other ways I don't.

Like, I think when it comes to work, I don't really live in the moment. But I think when it comes to like, oh, what does my life have to look like? Is that I don't, I don't like really anticipate or project. I'm like, I feel really happy. I, like yesterday, I was on the sofa. Partner wasn't feeling very well because he got the cold that I had at the weekend. It's only fair. It's only fair.

I was like, both of us will suffer. Yeah. And I was just like, I'm very, very happy. Like, this made me very, very happy. And then, like, a couple of weeks ago, I was shaking us. I was shaking us big style. And I was like, I'm very, very happy. It's like, oh, I just, I don't know, life is good.

I just don't really think he's the kind of person who will have, like, almost like a vision board in his head for how he wants a summer to go. and he'll get there by thinking about like the previous summer and he'll get there by thinking about like what he feels he wants more of or what's missing in his life and my brain just doesn't work that way i feel a great affinity with your husband at times um and i wonder if that's why this podcast works i have i do think when some ways are very similar like you're both we're so great differences you're both working dogs yeah yeah you're both working dogs i love that i want more of the ash

ability to just see the moment, enjoy the moment, and be like, this is really good. I'm really happy right now. Maybe you just need a head injury. Maybe I've only been like this since a clock fell off the wall

at the faltering fallback and knocked me out. I have seen that video from your perspective. And it's one of my favorites only because you lived. If you died, it would be a tragic video

they were showing on social media. It would be on social media going around. Everyone's like, you know, after 24 hours, Twitter takes the footage down. But because you're Although 24 hours would be the funniest 24 hours ever.

And everyone would be like, oh my God, it's so sad. Going over it, like, you could see it happening. I don't think that everyone would be like it's so sad. I think I would be being rinsed also. Yeah, but that's Twitter. Like, everyone's being rinsed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whoever's, there's always, I mean, it's mostly Nazis now.

It is. And they are rinsing everyone. You know what? The thing is, though, I will say this. And I know I'm sounding a bit like football crazy, but Football man. It is just, it's just, it's. It's so good for the World Cup.

You are football crazy, and that's also the other demographic that remains on Twitter, which is the footballer people. Like, that is your forum. That's what keeps me there. Yeah. And that's okay. That's okay. All right.

Let's go, let's do some shaming of people. Let's do, let's do some ridiculing of ourselves. Let's do some ridiculing of ourselves. We have this week a mystery question, which isn't, I'm going to be honest with you. It's not really a mystery question because I already know it's going to be. And you also came. up with it. Let's go through the ritual. I'm waiting for the ding from... Child, let's go through the motions. No, it's good when we know the question is because then we

have things that we might want to say about it. Ha ha. Oh my God, what a surprise. I haven't considered this before in my life. Is it time to stop height shaming men? My first question is, do we still height shame men? Um, I think men feel height shamed. Now that is an interesting like to the side of like how much is this thing happening. I would say men feel height shamed. I mean there's so many places we can take this question but I also kind of object to the premise of this question because I think not to compare the men height thing to what you said earlier about insidious racism but I will. I think I think We've stopped outwardly shaming men per se.

I think we're not calling them teeny-weenies when they're small. But I think there is still a great insidious bias against short men. A friend of my went on a date recently and she came out, she was like, just too small. You know, like, it's, I think it's an unspoken obstacle and barrier. The same way that when women lose weight and they go, oh my God, I cannot believe how differently I'm just, treated and it is it breaks their heart because it's like you've got this thing that you wanted, which is the losing of the weight, but in the process you've realized that you are now, you have been judged this entire time on your appearance and you would completely dehumanized.

And that's not true for every single woman who is, you know, plus size. Also, I don't think we should use fat as a stigma word. Like if you're a fat person, you're a fat person. Lots of people have great experiences while being a fat person. But a lot of women lose weight and report. I am now treated completely differently and actually has ruined my view of the world because I'm realising how shallow this world is. I read a report in the FT the other day that said women who lost weight on GLP ones

because that's the quickest way to lose weight. Their economic benefits go up. They find it easier to get jobs. They find their career progression is better. This world is so fatphobic but it would love to pretend that it's not because we're not calling every fat person who remains.

I think fat phobia is back. I think fat phobia is back, back, back, back. And like, I think eating disorders are back. And I think that, when we talked about this before, like I think that choice feminism paved the way for it. But I'm interested in the height shaming of men in particular because in some ways, women exist under a regime in which beauty standards curtail your ability to be happy. they discipline you as a woman is like, water is wet.

And like what we know is that rates of body dysmorphia amongst men are going up. The sort of like cosmetic surgery and like aesthetic treatment industry is increasingly looking at men as a relatively untapped market. Right? There's more to be gained from it. I think that the shallowness of dating apps, which I do you think that dating apps create a shableness, dating experience. I do think that they take things that already existed in the dimensions of like finding sexual connection and they make it all worse. I mean like men feel pressure

because they're not idiots. They can tell that tall men get treated a certain way and shorter men don't, right? Like I don't think that it's sort of, you know, while some of the like, um, more like oh we're taking the piss out of you for being short some of that might have faded knowing that you're experiencing rejection because of your height hasn't gone away as you said so I think that there is a question here about what are the expectations that people who you know have sex with men and want to date men what is it that they actually value in men. What do you think they actually value in men?

We're now going to speak for the entire entire. Okay, what do they value in men? I don't want to speak for the audience in this. I also think it's interesting how the height, the sort of like cultural consensus that a man should be tall has emerged because in say 1916, when we have lots of records about how tall men were. The average height for a man was five foot five.

And what was the average height for a woman? It was five foot. So it was still small. Everyone was stunted because the food was bad. Yeah. But when they were in recruiting for the First World War, they had to create the bantam battalions for men who were five foot. That's what they call them, the pantom battalions.

Can you imagine getting shocked to fucking pieces by a mortar? And you're like, well, there was all the bantoms. Like, you've called me after a chicken. You call me after a fucking chicken. That's still a weight class in boxing, bantam weight. Yeah, but it's disrespectful. Like, you literally called me after a chicken while I've been ripped to pieces

on the battlefields of Flanders. Like, fuck off. Anyway, so the, I presume it's like the height for men has crept up and up and up because of better living standards than with it has the expectation of men being tall. But it's strange

how it has morphed into this idea. of like 6.5. Have you ever tried to date a 6.5 man? The average height for a woman in the UK is 5 foot 5, which is 5 inches taller than me. Actually, no, it's 4. I'm 5 foot 1 on a really good day. On a warm day. On a warm day when that breeze carries me off the ground. I'm floating like a canty rep accord, isn't it? Yeah. And like dating a 6 foot 5 man is impossible. That is something. It's the same thing. as like you have no business being up there you've got no business what are you a weather balloon sorry now I'm height shaming in the other way but I just I just mean like this demand for extremes

again it's the same thing like women who talk about men's dicks and I like I want a really big one like size queens some of you I get it like but not everyone wants a bit dick that big so where does this weird cultural register come from I will tell you because what you're identifying is sexual dimorphism because like we are asexually dimorphic species right men and women look different from each other but what's interesting to me and this is different from thinking about it as like and this has biological origins is the way culture is layered on top of it and then what it is to be a man what it is to be a woman what it is to be masculine what it is to be feminine what it is to experience your own desirability is about how different like how sort of

dimorphic you are in relation to your partner. So what it means to be feminine isn't just to be small. It's to be smaller than your partner. What it is to be masculine isn't merely to be tall. You have to be taller than your partner. So I think we've talked about this before, but the sort of dating options for tall women drop off, even though there are tall men, is that their height isn't, it's not different enough, right? It's not got that gap. It's not got that difference of like, my peteetiteness emphasizes your masculinity.

You know, your height emphasizes my femininity. Like, that's the thing that's in there. And I don't think that it's, sorry, I don't think that that's completely absent from queer relationships either. Now there's lots of different kinds of queer relationships and I don't want to fall into that like classic sister. heck thing of like, I learned what the word bear means. So that's not what I'm saying at all, but there's obviously dimensions of like the queer

register of desire, which is like intensely dimorphic still. It's about that difference. Is your stud a real stud when you're a fan? Yeah. You know, like if you are, it's funny because like I remember one of my friends telling me that he was very proud because he'd managed to be attracted to. to a fellow sort of like femme gay guy and not a person that he classified as a straight acting gay guy.

And that was interesting, it's like, but that comes also that with them getting to like the internalized sort of homophobia and you know feelings around wanting a partner who's like not seem to be gay and how that works. but I think this question that you pose about, like, what do we want from men in general?

And I guess it is the return, like, the more that something like height kicks in or the more that, like, gym, you know, this idea of like visibly showing that you work out. No, you don't have to be Captain Marvel, per se. Is there even a Captain Marvel? You're thinking of Captain America. I fucking hates you beer a movie.

Sorry, guys. Captain Marvel's a woman. Yeah. Wow. maybe you don't have to be Captain Marvel then you don't have to be Captain America or Lieutenant fucking I don't know Guantanamo

You know I was so sad that they scrapped that movie in the end The studio should have been brave And release, you know, give us the Snyder edit of Lieutenant Guantanamo Sergeant Pentecan Um But what's the stupid fucking cop names

cop military names, right? Anyway, you don't have to be... Lieutenant Guantanamo is now going to be my alter ego from a bit pissed off. You're like, you've woken Lieutenant Guantanamo. Mine is Chairman Mao. People sometimes call me a chairman... Well, they used to call me Chairman Mao

when I was more in organising because I was so, get this now. Wasn't it Chairman Mayo? Yeah, we also... We went to that. At first, the Chairman Mao, then someone started Chairman Mayo. So, Chairman Mayo.

Which, as you can understand... And I bet, you know, like that really undermined my authority. Can't take it. It's like the bantam. I got bantomed. You got bantam. I got bantam. I got bantam.

Anyway, you don't as you ripped to the gods, but it's this idea of like, ah, you look like you could fight a bear a little bit. You look like you could, it's like masculinity, a really, a really old school. And I meet, and it's also an invented old school. Because again, the men in the past were titchie teeny weenies, little teeny weenies. But this invented. sort of like masculinity that's been cobbled together from bodybuilding movie portrayals of men and I would say like romancey novels has come and amorphized and I think TV and film have a lot of

influence on what we see as masculinity and then you have these strong man elements in politics but I think that's now back like this ascendant very dominant masculinity this idea of protector and daddy I was going to talk about this, which is my Instagram reels know me so well. I want football. I want wrestling. I want some pratfalls. And I want like, ha, ha, ha, isn't it funny being married content? And what's interesting about the like, isn't it funny being married content is that some of it is like, oh yeah, like it do be like this.

And then some stuff I've realized is, you know, I thought it sounded like Slav or she shik, but it's pure ideology. Like, like, it's truly just pure ideology. And so one is this like recurring meme of like a man and a woman walking down the street on holiday. And it's like her internal monologue is like, la la la la, oh, isn't that a nice chapel? Ooh, a cute cafe. And the man's internal monologue is like, secure the perimeter. Is that a threat? Da-da-da-da-da.

And I was like, that is literally zero couples. I know, like zero heterosexual couples. It is always that a man is like, oh, what? if we play bat and ball at the beach today. And a woman is hypervigilant. Because we've been like conditioned through years of patriarchal violence and like habitual line stepping, if not worse,

to be hypervigilant in public space. And I was just like, oh, this is just like pure, like Christian nationalistic, soft trad wife ideology. Like he's the protector and, you know, you, you know, he's the shield which like takes all the arrows so you can like sleep soundly. I was like, oh, this is just gender ideology.

It's also very American. It's an American Christian nationalist's flavor, particularly because it's like your man has to be a secret service agent. It's such a fucking American idea of like he's a superhero, he's a secret service agent, he's also somehow the head of J.P. Morgan. It's all of those things in one. It's like, there I, that American idea of a man being aggressively heterosexual, but somehow very sexless within that, it's like, you know, the talk about sex with two Gs on TikTok, financially, the carer, you know, and the secret service agent all in one. locks down, takes care of us,

then goes out to work the land. Like that traditional idea. When you see that filter through into, I guess, other spaces where it just doesn't fit like Britain and the man is always wearing an ill-fitting suit. These influencers love an ill-fitting suit. Oh my God. Love an ill-fitting suit.

Get your fucking suits, Taylor, guys. Like, you want to be a real man? Get these... Get these... Not even Samo Row. Go down the road and get your suits tailored. Talk to the gays about... Actually, I was going to say talk to the gays about... how to dress but the gays have been dressing bad recently what is gay guys gay guys of the

UK at least and i will say like america too i don't know about europe as much because so many gay guys are now playing with gender love that and entering the women section but the UK loves to wear ill-fitting clothes women in the UK love to wear ill-fitting clothes and gay guys are do the same fucking thing just because it's a crop top doesn't mean it suits you you can be ripped to the gods that crop top is not the right shade where Wear something that looks like, pick something out of the women section that looks crazy good.

You don't, just wearing a crop top is not enough. Where is the style? We've lost, our gay guys used to lead us in style. Also, we're losing recipes. Don't pick ugly clothes from the women's section. That's what I'm saying. Sure, you're playing with gender, but at the podcast. But it's like, you know, the gay guys who used to play with gender

and in the form of aesthetics, like, you know, the Andre, Leon Talley's, etc. I don't know, Sylvester's. I don't want to say Boy George because he did bad things. But you know, we used to have, not just gay guys, but we used to have pop culture gay guys who dressed in a way that was actually Jenny interesting. And I've got Harry Stiles just wearing a skirt

and being like, whoa, I'm queering ugly. I'm queering bad dressing. They've queered dressing badly. He's left it behind now because he's gone, he's gone back to the straight side of his bisexuality. But they're, the gay guys, guys used to be leading lights in the cultural sphere especially when it came to style and now they have been swallowed by the she in bubble too and they were just dressing like shit there was a really

funny GQ post on about everyone at Adonis recently where it's like something like oh the best style of pride was fun the after parties and it was the the lead picture was just five gay guys in a white vest and shorts and they looked exactly the same and my friend was cracking up like this and someone said to my friend about it that it's the gay version of those lads outside the boring and their skinny jeans yeah yeah yeah that's what it was and I was like where because of the homogeneity um of the internet we are losing individual taste and we are confusing conformity with style and I think that's also something interesting about like what we want from a man now that I've noticed something about aesthetics there's different aesthetic archetypes but men obviously they get slated

for being shlubby or whatever. Men are expected to, you know, are you going to be the linens guy? Are you going to be the mullet guy? And it's like you have to dress in your tribe. Otherwise, you're not sexy. I need to be able to categorize you. I mean, I think there's also a thing which is like,

at what point, like, at what point does thinking about your appearance become unmasculine again? Like, I do, I don't want to be like, It's so hard for men, but like I do think it is hard for men in so many ways because I think that like part of Navigating desire and like other people's desire for you is that there are all these invisible trip wires And so it's like, okay, we want you to care about your appearance, but not too much right? There is a space like There's like a golden zone, right? Like a Goldilocks zone of caring about your appearance and then it becomes feminine then it becomes

comes something which is like suspect about your masculinity and don't want that anymore. And I'm not just talking about it being tacky, right? We can all think about the stuff which is like tacky or like trying too hard, but it's actually like no, this is like tipped into no longer being masculine. We want a guy who is like caring and someone who like does their fair share of mystic labour, but how many of us are actually ready for like house husband era?

Like how many, right? To what extent does and maybe moving away from, sorry, I'm so nasal because I'm still shaking off this cold so if you're like, uh-huh. What's I saying? House husband?

Yeah, we say we want men to liberate us from the expectations which have traditionally been put on women, but at what point does that feel that it undermines our own femininity from which we draw value? Can you rephrase that question?

I'm sorry, my brain was so, so bad. What I was thinking about when you were saying that as well, though, is, you know, we say we want to, we're now putting the onus, let's talk for a heteron perspective, which we seem to be doing all the time. If we're saying, you know, let's face it. It's a heteronormative podcast.

It is a bit heteronormative, but I do like to sometimes be, you know, I want the Aske a Gay Guy segment. I want to, we need some embies on as well. We need some embers and some lessons. I'm like,

bring them on. Bring them on. Where are? But I cannot, I cannot pretend to be anything other than a common or garden heterosexual. Yeah. I had my time of going,

could I be queer? And it turns out no, I just had short hair. Maybe I'll be queer in future. I don't know. I don't think so I don't think so the reason what I finally went

I don't think I'm I don't think I'm queer enough to be queer I've tried double all of that but it was honestly when I was watching off campus and I was just like I like this too much I was like

I didn't watch heated rivalry and I fucking love off campus like there's nothing more heterosexual than that it's so heterosexual oh my God not watching Heathcarid of it and choosing off campus I was like I think I've

given up my potential queer I've not even I had potential quitted but I think I've you know surrendered it anyway whatever's um that's what's saying the expectations put upon men it's like okay but who's going to liberate them from the patriarchy why why we give it up I say we why culturally has there been a you know a flick back to okay we feel we've tried to resist the patriarchy whether that's actually true or no no no we've tried to resist the the patriarchy but it's so tiring what if we leaned into it i feel like the same thing has happened with just general capital capitalist extraction you know we are living guilded age 2.0 now because i think a lot of people just gave them and said if you can't beat them become their uh sub is the wrong

word but become their wealth creator or try and join them there was there's been a flick back to oh the billionaires we might have as well just get on board like people saying what if I go and work for metta now they just have like there's no point fighting it what if I go and work in this date and role I suppose the thing that you're saying is that the sense of there having been a radical horizon whether it's a radical anti-capitalist horizon or a radical feminist horizon um that that's been foreclosed ash you put it much more articulately than I did but yes that is what I'm saying that's exactly what I'm saying I'm but I mean I suppose the thing that I always think

thinking about when you were talking about is like, um, I like to keep an eye on sort of in cell adjacent discourse or like kind of red pill discourse. And like, what is it that is being said, um, what is it that's being churned out by this sort of like nexus of gendered resentment? And one of the really prominent themes is this idea that women tell you that they don't care about. height. Like women tell you that they want a guy who's in touch with their emotions. Women tell you all sorts of things about what they supposedly want, but their stated preferences and their revealed preferences are very, very different. And I think that there is some truth in this. I don't think it's true all the time. And this is something which I say a lot, which is how people behave,

having been conditioned by dating apps and how people behave in real life, I think can be very different. But I've definitely had male friends who have said, oh, I've been in this relationship and she was always telling me to get in touch with my emotions and to articulate what I'm feeling. And then I started doing it and she fucking hated it. Like there is this, you know, stated versus revealed preferences thing. And I think that that does become an engine of resentment

because it's not just the sort of like hype preference that pisses men off. It's women pretending that it doesn't exist or that it doesn't exist for them because they don't want to seem like a bad person. I would be fascinated to know how it goes in gay guy relationships as well. But this, I do really think that this is a problem in terms of relating.

And it comes down to me in that a lot of women, and I've been one of them, we're not actually socialised to deal with men as real people. we're socialised to deal with men as an entity that's either there to, that's sort of there to enhance us as characters in various ways,

either dream fulfillment, or sexual fulfillment, or simply as savior. Being chosen. Being chosen. And we, I think there is a, the narrative,

the cultural narratives were given is not about choosing that man back. It's about being chosen, being picked, and then he just exists. And if you read romance novels, then he exists to sort of to furnish you, you know, bring out the best in you,

help heal the heroin, maybe there's some gifts involved. Those narratives are out of step with what is actually required. And I do think there has been a change where women don't need a financial protector, but now the economy's bad. They're about to being like, what if I had a financial protector? But there is this demand of like meeting the emotional level. but I also think a lot of women, we overestimate how emotionally mature we are.

Just because compared to the stuntedness that men are equipped with, we seem like up here. But then it gets to a level. It's like actually, you know, a man is crying in front of you and you're hating it. A man is telling you that he's not very happy with what just went down between you and you're fucking hating it because it feels like a rejection or it feels like somehow a judgment of you and he's not just sitting there being like, my baby, my angel, okay, kid. And he's like saying, that was really annoying what you just did that. When he's treating you like an adult.

Like an adult and not like precious baby. I think, and it's not, there's some women being like, no, my relationship, there's nothing like that. That is great. That is great. We're not talking about you. These are things that I myself have been guilty of. I used to hate it when my ex had emotions.

But at the same time, you're also doing this thing where you want to be like mother and carer and get them to express their emotions. And when they do, you're like, no, I don't want this. Ew. You're like, ew, I don't want it. Not like that. Not like that. This was a fantasy about who I am.

This wasn't actually about you. Yeah. And I think women as well are very bad at taking rejection in general because we've been told so much that being chosen is the ultimate thing. So any sort of rejection feels like, you know, it's a real blow to the sense of both self and value. And that can be anything from sex rejection. Like, he's not in the mood tonight.

That suddenly becomes a massive thing. some of the ways that I've have I actually been that bad with this? I'm actually not that bad with sexual rejection when it's like I've got low steam in those areas so whatever. Anyway but some of the things the things I've heard women say to and about men who haven't wanted to have sex

that they are in relationships with if it was the other way around not to be like if there's the other round yeah I know there's different context but if it was the other way around you'd be fucking accused of being a sexual predator you'd be crazy. Yeah.

Crazy boots. Guys, crazy boots. But because there's a lot of resentment that obviously builds up due to the oppressive nature of the patriarchy, I think women see it almost as their right to sometimes go unhinged at men and say like, well, you know,

I have to fucking put up with this, this and this. You don't understand. And all that anger builds up. And then, but then on the other hand, men, like, this is really unfair. Why am I getting all this anger? And then we've got this situation where there's dual resentment on both sides,

but no actual communion. One of the things which I found quite helpful is actually sometimes naming gender, by which I'm not just talking about, you've left the toilet seat up and you are a man, so you did that and because I'm a woman and all of the generations of wronged women before me to speak through. I'm not talking about that, but like sometimes being able to name the work that gender is doing for you emotionally. So yesterday I was talking to my partner and we were talking about basically like something in the relationship which like, sometimes makes me feel a little bit insecure and like, like, like, but you know, we're talking about it. And I said like, well, something which you kind of need to understand about me is that like, I have the ego of a man and I have all the vulnerabilities of a woman, which is like all the ways in which I can feel hurt are like so shaped by, I guess, both gendered expectations and the way in which femininity is constructed, but also when I think about my ego and I think about like who else is it that has like an inner voice like mind that I see expressed out loud.

It is like pure psychopathic athletes and rappers. Like it's not actually a good thing. So I was like, you kind of have to understand this about me. Ego and man, vulnerability is a woman. He was like, oh, this like, he was like, oh, this actually is like a really good way, like a really good like sort of in a nutshell. Like how does Ashes psyche work? And like we've done it in like some other ways as well

in which we've talked about like where his sense of self comes from and then conversely elements of insecurity that spring from having been taught that this is how you are valuable like this is how you're valuable as a person and I just think sometimes like putting a name to gender is helpful and so I think coming back to things like height shaming

is that like we shouldn't actually talk about it as height it is masculinity. Yeah. It is difficult to try and have those discussions though. I'm not always on board with the lake we should do in a gendered way. I have noticed with some partners that they do adhere, they cleave very closely to certain gendered lines when it comes to being vulnerable or certain protective elements,

but they won't admit that there is a gendered element to that. At all. So it's very difficult to talk about or try and say, I think, you know, this is a behaviour of notice in you. They're just like, that's why I'm like, that's just how it's happens. There's no, the wall is put up. It stops there. It's a wall rather than like an invitation to understand further. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just like, I am, who I am. And I think those walls proliferate across people at the moment because I think there is a, it's weird, we live in a culture that seems to, I always say we live in a culture, it's so silly. At least the circles that I witness and that I'm

part of. I live in a culture. I live in a culture. Um, the discourses. There seems to be a real on this idea of self-awareness, but I'm not seeing much awareness going on. No, being in love with labels isn't the same as self-awareness. No, it's, there's, we love, we're loving the navel gazing and pathologizing ourselves, but the just, but the doesn't seem to be much, there's walls up, it's just like, well, I'm like this and that's my label and I'm just got to hold onto my label. Yeah, 100%, 100% on the labels thing. I mean, I suppose like if we, and by we, I'm sort of saying, like, people who want to date men, if we go, actually, we are reinforcing patriarchal expectations and patriarchal norms of masculinity

through what it is we desire, how do you begin to break out of that? And I'm not just talking about like, you know, have sex with a short king because I've done that. Loved it. Well done you. Well done.

I was like, well done a short king. I'm seeing eye to eye with you. But like, in a sort of like broader sense about like how through what it is, through your revealed preferences, how they uphold patriarchal norms. Like, what is there to be done about it?

I don't think I'm equipped to answer that because I still obviously uphold a lot of these patriarchal norms. When I started dating my now partner, I was, I love that he's taller than me. That's the problem. But I'm five, everyone's taller than me. It's so easy to be taller than me.

I'm also an easy person to date. But everyone I've dated, not in general, I mean, like, height-wise. But that's a funny thing. Everyone I've dated has been five, ten or above maybe a five nine's creptin Okay so to what extent is this about like

I know that I've I've talked to you about femininity before and you were really resistant to it you you bucked like an overladen donkey I was buckaroo you were buckaroo like you know the sort of the lassoe went on and you were like fuck this but like is there a bit of you which is like I feel quite feminine

my choice of man makes me feel feminine and like the way in which I think about my height in the way in which I think about my smallness. There is an element of it which likes to feel feminine in this way. I think I would be, this is the problem because I don't classify it as the feminine thing, but obviously that's, I think fairly, I don't classify it as I want to feel feminine,

but I think that if you dug into the impulse with a microscope and you were someone who actually understood how we codify these things, it would probably be seen as that. I'm just like, I like men who look like they play rugby. but then small men play rugby yeah kick it

what's going on there I've made out with and been out with small men it's also a certain phenotype phenotype

phenotype phenotype does that mean is that just mean type of person so I don't tend to go for beautiful men and short men

are beautiful men not always no you get a hunky yeah you can get a thick one but like the men that I've seen who are so pretty

that it takes your breath away. I don't tend to go for them because maybe there's something there about like, I've got to be the beautiful one. What do I bring to the relationship if you're prettier than me? And I don't think that's even feminine. I think that's just like,

I need to bring some fucking value. Whereas I tend to go for men who are like quite hunky and I'm quite femme, as you say. So I go for broader men who look like they would have been on the back line of rugby. I don't know much about rugby. So I haven't watched it.

Whoever the bigger ones, are I'd go for them. The biggest is second row. I don't want biggest. I have made I once kissed a big like England rugby player I think he was at the time and I was like no this is scary I don't like this too big too big for me I have no business here I've got no business kiss like very tall basketball players like you're clinging to a rock face yeah I don't want to look ridiculous this is I'm thinking about like proportionally as well so there's definitely something about aesthetic and like is it in proportion I don't want to look you know if they're too tall I'm like I've got no business being here because I look like a child.

I don't look like a child. So there's definitely some sort of calculations going on my head. My partner is quite tall but also so are I guess like my closest male friends. So they're all about like six four. Yeah. When we stand with them when we've been at events, I'm like, I feel like Sophie in the BFG. No, you know who I feel like. I feel like Don Corleone.

I'm like, I just feel like this like. You're like, my tiny thing, I'm like, you know, I make them come, like, come close to me. Like, what are they, what was it called? Like, what are they called? Capos. Capos. Capos. They like your capos.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Come here. Like, I was really, damn, this man out. Take him out. Yeah. I don't want to see this problem anymore. Yeah. You understand me.

And then some redacted person gets removed from the event. It was like, but. Moyer being dragged off into the land. No, what did I say? Anyway. But yeah, there's definitely something going about there. So I'm the wrong person to ask about, I'm picking it because I haven't really unpicked it.

I've worked on being able to hold a bit more of the vulnerability. But I'm now with a partner who I would say, in some senses, is very traditional. Very traditional. And I think it's interesting. I'd just say, I think it's in some ways not traditional, but in some ways has a bit of a protector mindset.

I don't want, he'll be annoyed if I go in too deeply, but like has a bit of a protector mindset, which I love, really likes taking care of me. And there's, you know, so you can argue from the other side of the mutuality thing, because he'll do, like if I'm working all day, he'll cook all the meals. And then he'll, like when I'm going up to

stay, et cetera. He's like, let me take care of you. Like, you stop worrying about money for a bit. I'm going to take care of you. And I'm, that is, what is more fucking traditional than that? Also, I'm saying traditional. That's the wrong word. What is more fucking in line with the idea of patriarchy, the gloss, the positive gloss of patriarchy that women have put on it than that. I don't even think that's traditional. Women have always fucking worked. It's just been the upper classes who didn't. I suppose this is the thing, which is like, and we should start, like, bring this home, because I do want to maybe, maybe there's just like stated versus revealed preferences episode. Why don't we also crowdsource some responses from special ones?

And it doesn't have to be about men. It can be about anyone that you are romantically interested in. What are your stated preferences? Lesbians, what are you going on with the heights? What's your height attitude? Tell us. What's the thing that, what's the, what is the parallel? What's the parallel parallel?

Analog. Analog. Not analogous, but analogous. Like, comparatous. Analogous. Analogous. Analogous. What is your anal-analogous thing in the lesbian community to height in the heteronormative one?

Right. I'm going to move this on. I'm going to move on, actually. Also, no, Ash. You didn't open up about your stated versus revealed preferences. Yeah, I've noted that. I went in on what's going on my relationship. Oh, okay.

because I sometimes think I'm maybe too close to be able to see it, but like, I would say he is a conventionally attractive, tall man. And sometimes I get a little bit, like, not so much anymore, but there was a period of time where, like, sometimes people actually said some fucked up shit, right? Like, sometimes, like, and it's actually always white women would come up to me,

they'd be like, they would be talking about how good, looking here as if like I'd been panning for gold and I'd found like this massive like gold nugget to the point where I was a bit like, am I clapped? Like are you saying this to me because I'm clapped and you sort of can't believe it? Because like to me I'm not like, oh I can't but like sometimes I'm a bit like wow, I feel so lucky and like I'm glad that you didn't merely look for like conventional attractiveness and you can see all these things about me which are like fab. But like I'm also like a crazy high achiever

like it makes sense to me I'm like you are so hot as well not to not to you know blow smoke up your ass but you are also hot it's just the world likes to try and make you think you're not hot because I've got a lovely pair of wombats it's not just wombat's ass it's face too but I that instinct

that those white women have I see it in all the time well now I haven't got TikTok thank God but when I was in TikTok you see it all the times in comments of a hot guy it would be like this faux complimenting like girl well done where did you find him? Oh my God, like so impressed by you.

This weird patronising tone because there is a scarcity mindset about the idea of like a conventionally handsome man and there's also the halo effect where you look at a conventionally handsome man and it's this, you know, oh, he must be really nice too. No, sometimes they're cunts.

Just like everyone else. A lot of the time they're brainless. So I suppose like, because I remember it was like there was someone at a friend's wedding who was just like sort of chasing me around and she kept saying and I was a bit like, do you want to fuck him?

Because like... Yeah, obviously she did. Sorry. You told the story. Yes. That's why she did it. Yeah, I'd be like at this point, it would be less annoying than me continuing to have this conversation. The pivot that women always make when they want to fuck someone and they find the relationship

is they just compliment both you and instead. Like my boyfriend was telling me the other day about interaction he had with a girlie who met him, totally normal. That's what you're meant to do. You meet someone you fancy you flirt with them. Then as soon as you mention you have the girlfriend, then she starts asking loads and loads of questions about me. Because that's what women do. They're like, I'm going to foe befriend your girlfriend, even if she isn't here.

to show that I have not embarrassed myself because we have this idea of like putting ourselves out there and not being chosen is embarrassing so it's like actually the whole time I was just like I'm really investing this it's like sweetie you don't have to pretend it's okay like it's nice fancy some of it you shot you shot a little bit why would you not do that you're doing the right thing just and be like okay she can't so I think I think that I'll say

is like in terms of state versus revealed preferences is that it can be like I'm so not shallow da da da da but like you know look at look at who I ended up That's clearly, you know, I'm not shallow. I just, I just love beauty. I just love beauty. But I suppose the thing that I will say is that, what are the things which, like, activate my desire the most?

And I'm talking about, like, we've been together for eight years, coming up to the third anniversary of marriage, it's like, it's no longer the part where it's like I see how desirable you are by society, right? Like, you know, sometimes that thing about like, oh, other people fancy you. Sometimes that's exciting. Sometimes I'm like, oh, shut up.

Like, the thing which, like, does it without fail is when I feel that he's really seen a way in which I need some, like, support and like it could be with family stuff like I remember when my stepdad was in hospital and he came with me and I was just like so flooded with love because I was like this is exactly the kind of thing that I've felt that my whole life I've just had to like take on by myself is be like responsible for Dean with these things and my family and the fact that you were just like no this is also my job and my responsibility I was like I have never loved anybody more um and like you know I came back

from working this weekend with you and just like the whole house was really clean and I was just like I was like God I want to have sex with you because I was just like this is like I'm not saying that how desirable he is seen to be by society

and that status wasn't a part of us getting together and like my initial fancying of him it probably was in ways which I'm like just not conscious of but I can tell you about why we're staying together and I can tell you about the things that make me like really want him now and it's not anything which is visible to other people tailored care

tailored care although he did he did rile me up on Sunday you know when someone like riles the dog he riled the dog he told me that I mopped the floor wrong and I lost my mind kind of has a joke how can you knock the floor wrong apparently I didn't rinse off the product so it was a bit sticky

And do you know something Do you know what the worst part was? He was right. Yeah, that's what... You only get riled when they're right When they're wrong, you don't get right because you're like, ah, this thing got another deal with me when someone's right and they've said

you've done this thing or you've done that you're like Why? Yeah, exactly. The dog goes crazy. We better do a problem. We've got to do a problem. We have to speed run this problem as well. So I'm so sorry, special one if you feel hard done by,

but... It's a really long problem. How do we speed run this? This is two... No, we should do another one because I think we should save that one. It needs... Why don't we swap problem? No, I'm going to...

Can I choose another problem for you? You can choose another problem. Special one, we're going to come back to your problem. We are going to come back to your problem. Let me find another shorter problem. Guys, you have so many problems. It's great. Okay, I've got a short problem. Hey.

As is custom, I want to quickly thank you for filling... my ears with such refreshingly frank, open and intelligent conversations every Tuesday. What if you listen, we've just talked shit all, all thing? You make, you're both fab and make my Tuesday commute the best one of the week. Big up to producer chow too for doing such a cracking job. Thank you for recognising this. Here's my dilemma. Two summers ago, I spent a couple of weeks working closely with a colleague,

and the spark I'd always felt between us was given space and time to develop into more intense feelings. Nothing happened as I was in a relationship of three years, the same relationship I'm currently in. But at the end of those weeks, we did end up expressing that we had feelings for each other. I felt so alive during the time we spent together and being with him brought out a version of myself that I loved. I made it clear that I couldn't actively explore the feelings that were there due to being in a happy relationship with someone I really cared about. As I was about to leave that place of work and likely wouldn't be bumping into them anytime soon. I assumed that if I cut contact with the colleague, those feelings would slowly fizzle away and

disappear, even though I felt a very real and painful sense of loss saying goodbye to them. My dilemma is, weirdly, and for whatever mysterious for prosaic reason, the feelings have not gone away. I've thought about that person sporadically over the course of the last two years, experienced chapters of vividly dreaming about them and strange heart pangs and emotions. My relationship has continued on its path over these three years, over these years, with all the ups and downs of a long-time relationship, but underlined by a deep care and love. I've tried talking firmly to myself, reminding myself that I have tendencies to fantasise and be overly romantic about life, and I have successfully managed to forget about the ex-collegiate for periods of

times, but then I get a reminder in the form of a song or a memory, an unwelcome feeling stuck creeping back. I've tried identifying what the colleague represented for me, and I've attempted to seek out those things and integrate them and integrate them into my own life, hoping that as a result, there as an individual, would lose some of their draw. A year ago, I saw them again, and the fiends were so clearly still there, despite my relationship being in a great place, that it left me feeling more confused than ever. I don't want to throw away my relationship and everything we've built together. Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated. My advice is super simple. Yeah. Enjoy the crush. Don't act on it. It's fine. It's fine. I'm just. It's fine. I

within a monogamous relationship to have what Esther Perel, Estabarral, Claxon, please, what Esther Perel calls like a secret garden, right, which is your sort of interior life of fantasy. And that can be sexual, it can be romantic, it can be where sexual meets romantic, but actually I think it's quite healthy to have this kind of inner life, right? And for it to be something which is not wholly centred around your partner, and also not something which you necessarily share with your partner. It's something which is alive and it's yours. So I would say enjoy the crush. Do not act on it. Continue doing what you're doing, which is like not seeing this person. And sure, it might have a sort of out, you know, external dimension, which is

it is a reciprocated crush. But if you're happy in your relationship, a crush is all it is and all it has to be. I wonder what version you were of this person that you don't feel like you've been or can be in your relationship and I would, I'd like to know what you came up with when you tried to identify reasons of why this person was so attracted to you because you don't put this in here.

I think they said letter as a permission letter. Most of our lessons are malicious letters and it's asking permission to maybe dive deeper into the fantasy whether that's to keep thinking about them or whatever. I think Ash's advice because I haven't yet had this in a relationship because I've only been in relationships for three years was my max. So the only time I actively had a crush on someone else was as that relationship literally died.

We've gone on a break. And that was the first time I started looking at other people. And that's how I knew the relationship was like over. But I think in a long-term relationship, there will obviously come a point where both of us at some point are attracted to other people. like seriously attracted rather than just oh that person's attractive um and so this is not a thing i've had to surmount yet but you've already weighed up in your mind the choice you have and your head is saying one thing it's just your body saying another i suppose it's so sad that we can't do our kelly anymore no no no we can't it's really sad and he sang him yesterday

day of the same reason. I was like, God, we fucked it. He's a terrible man. Anyway, so you, if you want the long-term relationship and you have a shared vision in the future, that's what you've chosen. It's the same thing as, I don't know, any choice you make comes with trade-offs, right?

And the choice you have made means that you can't just go and pursue the fleeting crushes or the fleeting, attractions, et cetera. But there's a, there's a world where you might be able to break up with your partner and you go off with this person. But there's no, if you want something long term and serious, you stay with the long term and serious person. If you want a short term fleeting affair and then to be single, you go do that. Because that was what might happen. You have to accept those things. I think you should put some boundaries around this. Don't see them. No cyber stalking, like this person isn't quite a real person, right? They're like a fantasy of like an

alternative reality. And I actually think that that can be a healthy component of an otherwise monogamous relationship as long as you have an understanding that this exists purely as a compartment within your own head rather than a door that you can actually walk through in your life. They, you don't know this person really. You know the best bits of them. You know the exciting bits. You basically did like first stage dating with them and had a little emotional affair.

And so you saw the best bits. And now, and you guys split apart at the end of that three weeks, having confessed the feelings, but there was no consummation of anything else. And I'm not saying you should go consummate. I'm saying you broke off at the most titillating part. Of course it's going to imagine your brain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, like, in some ways, that's, I was talking to someone about this,

and it was about, like, that we were talking about their open relationship. And he was like, look, I barely do anything because 95% of it is when I find out that someone fancies me as well. And then I'm like, I can go home a happy man. Yeah. Like, that's the sweet spot. You've, what's also happened here is you've told yourself. it's still open. It's an open question because instead of seeing the confession of you both having

feelings and you saying I'm not going to do in these relationships as a closure which you in like theory it's you know a full stop you've actually treated it as a beginning rather than an ending and you think I think in your head you thought that you treated as ending you have to see that as no that was the end of that that was the end in spirit yeah we need to end um but yeah so special one, enjoy the crush. A crush is a great thing. It's just a little crush, another way, every time we touch. All right, bye.