If I Speak - 122: Can you change who you’re attracted to? w/ Annie Lord

Episode Date: July 21, 2026

Former Vogue agony aunt Annie Lord joins Ash and Moya to talk about what happens if you let go of your ‘type’ and allow your romantic ideals to change. Her debut novel, The Project, is out now. (NB: Annie recommends Sharon Olds’ poetry collection Stag’s Leap.) Plus: advice for a man who’s feeling romantically jaded. Send us your dilemmas: [e-mail] Music by Matt Huxley.

Today on If I Speak, we have a guest. Woo! We have a guest who is well known to podcast listeners, both through her appearances on... Did you come on the podcast, or did you just come on do a show with me in Ash in general? It was a Navarra podcast, but it wasn't if I speak. Yeah.

You did a dry run for what then I think became if I... This was pre-if-if-I-speak. So I actually thought it was a really important conversation, but our YouTube audience hated it because it was three women talking. And they were like, this is three women too many. And I just think that different things have their different places. And so we were like, this is something we want to talk about, but this clearly isn't the right format.

And lo and behold, if I speak was born. If I speak was born, you were maybe the seed germination for if I speak. And who was the sea germination? Well, that will be Annie Lord, author extraordinaire. Welcome to the podcast officially. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I remember when I went on that podcast,

I remember someone commented like, I just said like again, but I can't believe someone in her physician says like that much. And I thought about that comment for a while, that really buried into my head. But I probably will say like a lot. That's fine. Ash says like all the time.

It's just me, my brain catching up to my words. Yeah, Ash is a big, is a big like enthusiast. I'm a, um, I love an um. Well, if Ash is and you're like the smartest person, never, then that's fine to say like then. I just think it's fine to buy yourself some thinking time.

And everyone needs to get over themselves. That's all feel of words are. It's because we have learned to speak faster than we can think. Very true. In this hyper-connected, hyper-whatever world. Anyway, the reason we have Annie Lord on the podcast today is because Annie Lord has her first novel out right now. It's called The Project.

It's amazing. Do you want to give the listeners a brief summary of the project? So it's about two friends and one of them gets really drunk on a night out and sleeps with a guy who's kind of really lady and a bit of a dick. And then when, you know, when you sleep with someone and you're like pillow talking and you kind of see a different side to them, she's like, oh, he's quite sweet underneath it all. And then they sort of plot to give him their really disenfranchised of dating. miserable about it. And they're like, where the hell are all the good men? So they like take this

guy and they want to give him a makeover to turn him into a nice guy. So they're like taking to art exhibitions, make him read bell hooks, like take him shopping, getting a little earring. And it's kind of a play on American high school films when the girl sort of brushes her hair and takes her glasses off and suddenly she's beautiful. But it's like a guy getting a makeover this time and it kind of plays with different rom-com tropes and the girls end up going through a huge change and makeover themselves. And yeah.

Why did you choose the project as a name and not my fair laddie? That is a good point. Gonna have to stop the press. Recall all the books. Sorry, I've got to call it my fair laddie. I've read it. I, this is, this is, I want to say this is a,

objective point of view. Obviously, I love a rom-com. I also just love books in general. I think this is kind of generation defining. It captures a generation in how they think, what they believe is important versus then what actually turns out to be important. And it's so sharp on the details of both dating and people. And the way people behave,

it's really good on our ugliest selves and what we have. the potential to be if we stop being scared of all the things we think we're doing wrong. I just think it's such a good book. It's such a good book. Oh, thank you. It's going to be bloody everywhere. So you can buy that now people from any reputable or non-reputable bookseller, the project. But we have to quiz you, as is our brief, as is our lot. And I think Ash, you are on the quizzing. I am on the quizzing. So this is 73 questions. Miner 70 because who has time for 73 in this economy? Question one, what is your favourite body of water?

Ooh. I think the sea, I feel like when you swim in the sea, just without even trying to just kind of remember the meaning of life. And you could, you just, yeah, need, I don't need any words. It's just the best. But do you have a favorite sea? A favorite sea. Ooh, I've never thought about that beyond like when you go on holiday and sometimes it's warm and sometimes it's not.

And which is the one that's warm when you're in Europe and which is the one that's cold. Mediterranean. Med, med. Med in a desert Atlantic. Yeah. Because it's like, because it's like got all the, Mediterranean. Thumbs up. Love the Mediterranean. Question two. What is your current favorite meme and why? Did TikTok sounds count as memes? 100%. I love that, like, one way it's the woman who, when she's like,

talk to me like, I'm a cunt. You know, when she's like really, when she's really wound up and it's like, me going to relaxing walk. Or like, where you just so wound up and you're like full of resentment for everyone. I think that one really got to the quick of, the quick of like the human condition of resentment because it's just literally her being like walking around being like, I've done everything on my own in life like a G. You just like, I can't listen to it and not find it funny.

What about you guys? Mine is, at the moment, the Kielian Mbapé is a dictator, series of memes. It's a World Cup meme. He is just one of the funniest men currently alive. I mean, I didn't realize until I saw the supercuts that, like, he's just, he has an instinct for physical comedy, which is, like, incredible. There was one point where he's sort of, like, arguing with the ref a bit, and then he grabbed the refs, wrist to check the time on his watch and then dropped the ref's hand. And I just thought, you funny motherfucker. That's very fresh. I'm very jealous of people that are funny in a physical

comedy way. I don't know if I'm goofy enough. I was like a bit ago, me, my flatmate were one of my flat mates were in the kitchen and he was trying to get past me and I was like, in the way so he couldn't get past. And he was like, wow, you don't normally incorporate physical comedy. And I was thinking, yeah, I don't. I don't need to nurse that instinct. They say that the key to comedy is that you should never actually think you're being funny. So like the key to like a comic character is that the character doesn't know that they're funny. And I think that that's why Mbapé is so fucking hilarious is that he doesn't know that he's being funny. Like Pope Francis.

Like Pope Francis. When Pope Francis would always slap the hands of like people like, get off. And he's been very sincere. He's like, get off me. But it's just fucking hilarious because it's a Pope slapping the hands of his worshippers. when Pope Francis complained about the Foguccini. Yeah. And everyone, and like, I don't know a demographic that loved that more than the

Forguccini. They were like, yeah, there are too many of us in here. I'm always looking around being like, there's too many gays in here, you know, except Pope Francis was using a slut. That was fucking hilarious. That was hilarious. It's absurdity. I feel like we've spoke about this before, like, the difference between people that are, like,

funny characters or people that do bits. I guess, like, a big bit of being funny, can sometimes be like telling a funny story and like performing a funny story. That's like more aware. And then yeah, like other stuff where you're just really being yourself. And he, that is just funny, especially when you know someone. All right. Third and final question.

What for you has been the most impactful piece of writing that you've ever read about love? Oh. The first one that came to my head was shower and old stag sleep, which I feel like I would have chewed it more as they're off. about a lot. It's like this really beautiful book of poems where Sharon Olds was going through her divorce and it's sort of written across the seasons and they're just so beautiful. Like I went through a bit of a phase. I feel like it was around lockdown of getting really drunk and like reading out poems when I was drunk. But they're just gorgeous, like very sentimental and full of feeling and really romantic even though they're kind of about a breakup. And I feel like they kind of got me into

territory. Oh shit, yeah, I've got a tattoo of it. It was really hard to find a line from it. Because, like, being serious, I just wanted a cool tattoo in swelling writing. And I was like, what's profound to me? But like, there was, all the lines are too much about a breakup. So I had to kind of search for one that was like not. So it wasn't just making my personality breakups. But the one I got was like, I guess that's how people go on without knowing how. Which I feel like is so nice in the context of the poem and as soon as you have something tattooed, it does sound really quinge and Pinterest quote,

but it is beautiful in the poem. I totally disagree because now I think of that line a lot and I've never read the original poems and I think both of you and I applied to a wider context beyond the breakup. Like I was literally thinking about the other day. So when Ash asked that question, I was like, I wonder if you say Sharon Olds

because I associate it so much with you, but I was thinking about, what was it? It was something to do with like existential dread or just finances or whatever. And I was like, how do people bear this weight of feeling so burnt, feeling so crushed by the world? And I was like, well, I guess people go on without knowing how. Like I went back to the poem and I was thinking about it.

And I was like, we do go on without knowing how. You just keep going without knowing how. Yeah, I do actually find that quite reaffirming. You've influenced me greatly. You've given me a piece of existential wisdom. that shit's really beautiful man Annie has a lot of great quotes but she doesn't

you do a lot of funny fucking accidental bits like one of my favorite ones that you ever did was that sometimes you go places I can't follow I feel like I was saying that in the context of like like I feel like sometimes you'll get really

silly and like I really hate this about myself I can get silly to a degree but sometimes you're like still chuckling about something and I'm like I don't know I don't know you get real silly goose

and I'm like I can't follow anymore I think about that quote all the time and like apply it to so many different things not just like silly goose but also you know people go in place I can't follow people going on intellectual things where I'm like I'm lost I can't follow

I feel like you said it once and I was like it was from Lord of the Rings or something And then you were like, you said it. And I was like, oh, you're like, oh, amazing. It was about me taking a picture of a cat as well. But you're really losing it as that picture of a cat. Because it looks so stupid.

I thought it was going to be such a nice picture of a cat. And the cat had food or, it was a cat, a really angry cat that lives in the railway in in Dahlston. And the cat, I was trying to take, like, really artistic pictures of the cat. I was bending down. And the cat had, like, was eating. And it looked up. had food around its mouth and when I looked at the pictures,

it looked like I captured like a hungry demon. It was like, so I laughed at this. I laughed at this a lot, but Moya was like adding bits onto this for so long and I was like really hating how much I just could no longer get on board. Like, you know, when you're like, yeah. Yeah, like yeah, okay.

I'm going to show you guys a photo I took yesterday, which was a children's drawing, which I found in a park and maybe that's not sure I was drawing that's not sure I recognize that I recognize that blob

it's a blobfish and it says above we will never forget you see they've got somewhere that I'm like I don't know where where have they gone they've gone so I can't follow I can't follow you

I don't know where you've gone and I don't know what got you here anyway we've got to get somewhere I was just completely sidetracked that talking about cats. We've got to get somewhere because we have our middle segment. Brap, bra, bra, bra, bra. This week's middle segment in honour of our dating queen,

because I feel like your writing is really about the human condition. But you do it through the prism of love and romance, right? Yeah, I think I've always just been really fascinated with romantic stuff. Like, if I watch a war film, I'll lock on to the five-minute scene that a soldier has with some random woman who's like in some small village

and I'll be like, are they going to end up together? Like, I just love stuff like that. It just captures my imagination the most. When you were, what were those drawings that your mother unearthed? Yeah. From your chartered.

It was like a picture of a drawing and it was like of a man and it was like my husband and it was like a funny stick map. What did you look like? He had jeans on because I'd drawn like the zip bit of the jeans, which looked a bit suss. You know what you want.

Yeah. I can't really remember much more than that. But I was like, that's so funny that I was already plotting that. We'll go to the middle segment a second, but one of the things I love most about Annie's childhood stories is there were two traits that really came out. And it was one which was like, this is my husband. actually the three, fantasising.

And then the third was, I'm in charge of my own fucking wardrobe. Yeah, my mom always tells those stories about that. She said, the other day, she was saying about this one time where, because I wouldn't let anyone else dress me and used to come down in like really wacky combinations. It's called fashion, look it up.

Yeah. And she was trying to get me to wear this really nice dress that my granny had sent. And I pissed on it. so that I didn't want to wear it. Wow. And my mum still gets annoyed about what I wear. She can't hack the first arm.

Okay. That's not the middle segment though, is it, Moia? No, okay, right. We're getting into the middle segment. So the middle segment, the project, the book that Annie has just written is, I think it has a massive theme about change, which includes what can happen

if your set ideas of who you desire romantically shift, which often without the notice of the person in question. So my intrusive thought is, especially based on last week's episode, Ash, about height, which is, can you change who you are attracted to? Right? So when I was single, people often asked me what my type was.

And I would come up with a smorgasbord. of socially acceptable features, not saying what my type actually was, because then I would get maybe cancelled, and because, you know, stipulating certain traits and features, as we've just discussed in the height shaming app, is it shows up the ugliest parts of ourselves that maybe conform to certain ideas about what, especially in heteronormative relationships, like what masculinity should be or what a man should be, like, like, okay, I want them this high, I want them to earn this much money, I want them to look like this. But I would say like a silly one, I'd rule out to date a Libra.

I was like, I'm never going to day Libra. In fact, I said that on my podcast, my podcast, this podcast. Why no Libra? Well, this is back when I was in astrology, but people in my, my sibling agree is a Libra. You love to say you're not into astrology all the time. But yeah, you know so much about it and bring it up all this. Sorry, Karen. Yeah, well, I said about Taylor Swift too.

Yeah. She's a liar. I've retired from astrology, but I still have all this knowledge and I have to do stuff with it. So I, but when I was really into it and like buying into it fully, I would say, well, not going to say Libra. My sister's a Libra. Most of my ops have been Libra's. Your sister catting and catching Australia. Most of my ops have been Libras.

I have tense relationship with my first ex with a Libra and that set the tone for the kind of relationship by, you know, it was really nice, but I wasn't like in love with him. So I was like, I'm just not going to bother with Libra. It's like, Libra's not my thing. It was almost a way to like whittle down who I didn't want. But now, who am I dating? I'm dating a Libra. Like, I've instantly undermined that.

And that's sort of like the silliest end of what I want to discuss today. But this is probably, this is the best relationship I've been in. I mean, I'm seven months in, so it's not exactly like, we haven't panned it out yet. But for now, this is the nicest. start a relationship I've ever had. And he's also got lots of other traits that are very different to what I thought I wanted and what I stipulated. And I do think that if I'd met him maybe even, you know, a year ago, I maybe wouldn't

have dated him or maybe even like, you know, two years ago, definitely wouldn't have dated him. And I guess what I want to discuss is can we act, but he's also got traits that are very similar to other people. Can we actually change who we're attracted to if it's not working out for us? because so many people in and around my vicinity who are like, dating is not working for me. And they're doing everything right. Like they're putting themselves out there.

They're, you know, trying to open up, okay, maybe I'll go for this and this, but they still end up with like very similar people. And should they be trying to change those intrinsic traits that they're attracted to? should we actually be interrogating our types? Or is this overthinking? Are we pathologizing too much? Are we trying too much to control the variables when it's so random and so just about luck

that you can't do that? So I want to talk about, can you generally go from wanting, I don't know, deep voice mullet guy who loves to tease to soft skin cutie pie who just wants to snuggle? Is that a possibility? And should we even try that? But I want to start somewhere easy, right?

I want to start as of soft. So let's start with types. Annie Lord, do you have a type? Yeah, I think so. I feel like aesthetically it's a bit more all over the shop. But like I think that when I think I'm a lot of the time I've been attracted to arrogance and someone, I don't know, I had a realization the other day.

And you know when you just like talk about the same thing in therapy over and over again, but then sometimes you can talk about it again, suddenly just feel it on such a deeper level. I just really was like, I think a lot of my type is just man who'd be mean to me at school. Like if, like, and I was just really feeling how much that's, that's what my type was.

And yeah, it wasn't like I was like bullied at school, but just guys were obviously horrible. And there was just some moments that were really horrible. Apparently it's really common. that they're all in year nine. My therapist was, like, I was talking through this situation. And she was like, when was that? And I was like, year nine. And she was like, it's always in year nine. It's always in year nine. But I literally think a lot of it is like, I'm mentally stuck in year nine. And it's like that like class clown taking the piss thing.

But I have noticed as I've like worked on different things, I can feel my type unfurling a bit. and I definitely have the feeling a lot nowadays of like, oh, I would never have fancied you a bit ago. And now I really fancy you, which is so nice. Ash, do you have a type? Yeah, dark hair, Marxist, and really likely to have the same first name. I'm on my fifth or sixth person with the same first name.

Every time you mention this, it cracks my shit up. How do you find, I know it's not my, like I'm not looking for it. It's not as if I go, oh, hey, what's your name? And then they say the name and I'm like, well, get in the boot. Are you sure, though? Are you sure? I'm so sure. Like, I didn't choose this, you know?

Are you sure? Are you sure there's not an element of familiarity there, which makes you think I've got a good track record with this name? I don't know, because obviously if there's been five of them before, the one I married is probably not a great track record. But then you work up and you find the pinnacle of that category of name. The pinnacle. The pinnacle. He's going to be listening to this.

He'll be like, I'm the pinnacle of all people named. But for you, he is because you got married. Well, I say you're the best I've found so far. But as discovered by how many of you I've been out with, there are loads of you. There are mobs of you. I do think sometimes we have, do you know what, I have in the past, definitely, when I've dated someone and I've liked them and it's ended for whatever reason, I've taken some sort of maybe superficial trait, whether that's their ethnicity, whether it's the fact they wear glasses, whether it's their job. And I've looked in the next one for that trait and sort of using these as building blocks of like, okay, almost trying to replace them by finding someone in a sense. similar category. I don't know if this is something you have. I actually think that the name doesn't have

meaning. I just think it's crazy. Like it is so insane and I completely see how this makes me look mentally unwell. But it genuinely doesn't have any meaning. I think he could have been called Balthazar and I don't know. Maybe a part of me would be like, well, that's a ridiculous name. Do I want to introduce, oh, hi, Mom, this is Balthazar. but like maybe something less ostentatious, all right? Like maybe his name could have been, I don't know, Robert. And I just think I'd see him in fundamentally the same way. So I think that the name is a crazy coincidence, but it has no meaning.

Dark hair is just like fair hair. I've dated outside of that type before. But like it just doesn't do it for me for some reason. And I think the thing which is actually like really important in terms of what attracts me to somebody is do I feel that they've got a good sense of who they are and they have this quality of like, I can hold my seat because I know who I am. And that can manifest differently according to different personality types. Sometimes these people are quieter. Sometimes these people are like really extroverted. But that's always been the thing that's drawn me in.

And then the thing that's sort of pushed me away often is when I go, oh, no, you are actually a roiling mass of, like, contradiction and insecurity. And that was actually quite shallow. And the thing that which, like, it keeps me in this relationship is that he does genuinely, and sometimes he has a terrible idea of who he is in that he never admits when he's ill. So he'll be like, oh, I'm just really tired. I'm like, yes, because you have a cold. And he'll be like, no, it is some other secret third thing.

And I'm like, in some ways, a terrible idea of who he is. but in other ways a really, really good and solid idea and I find that very attractive in people. Did that change? Has that type changed? Really? That's always been something that I like, always been something that I like. What can evolve is that I can then realize,

oh, you didn't have that quality and I thought you did because I've gotten older and more better at understanding when someone really has it versus when they can perform it. But it's, I have to feel that they've got it at the start. And that's been since I was like 13, Like it's just always been all the way through. I was going to say something about, I guess, how social mobility and class fits into attraction.

Because I think that people always find attractive something which seems aspirational to them. And that's not a bad thing. Those qualities can be, well, I aspire to being kinder and you seem to be a really kind and patient person. and I want that in my life and I want that for me. Or it could be aspiring to a certain kind of confidence or a certain kind of intelligence or a certain kind of status in the world. But there is definitely this element of when someone is of

a higher socioeconomic class than you, which is that sort of aspiration is like wrapped up with social mobility. So I once went out with someone who was like way posher than me, which I think was actually the real reason why it didn't work. Our values were so radically different on the basis of class. But there was a part of the thing. me which was like, oh, is this, is this my social mobility rocket booster? Like, is, is that this guy? And I've got a friend who, I don't think she's like this now, but she had a phase, but like,

anytime someone was like emotionally stunted and privately educated, she was like, you're the guy for me. And I think it was because he was like two classes above or something, right? So visible, but not immediately in your world. And it was like, oh, there's a sort of like class aspiration thing. And I think that is because historically, romantic relationships were an engine for social mobility. And so I sort of think that that's always speaking through us. So I don't think that that's a good, you know, I don't think that class status is like a good value on which to pin like, you know, your aspirational romantic ambition. But it's just interesting to me that it's often there. My rule of thumb is one above, one below.

What I think is so interested about that aspiration framework is Annie not in terms of class because I think actually I don't want to blow up your spot but like you're solidly middle class you're like

towards that upper and you are the person that I know who's least bothered about dating I was about to say that I guess for me because I did grow up very middle class and like at school not that it was trauma

or anything but like this was like not the troas to work. But like, you know, I got gently rins for being posh at school, basically. And just things like that, which, again, that wasn't, I'm not like, and that's why therapy, I'm to talk. That was, like, funny or whatever. But I think because growing up like that and feeling like I didn't slightly fit in in that way, or like, I guess I'd ever felt aspirational upwards

because I felt comfort, I don't know, that wasn't a way I was interested in moving. like I was there already kind of thing. Like, I've never, I think, looked for some, found that cool or impressive or something I want. Like, I'm, but I do in the sense that I do feel like when you meet someone, guys that went to a private school, like that, when they sort of have that really intense eye contact and they're really flirty and they're unbelievably confident.

I find that attractive. Find the confidence of posh boys really hot, but not the like, oh, he went to this school thing. But they're trained to do it. They're trained to be that charming. It's scary. You win. It's like, you know, a deep sea anglerfish.

Like, that's the light that's here. And then the terrifying jaws of dealing with somebody who's been sort of emotionally broken by being. sent away at the age of eight years old to the child abuse factory. That's what's waiting for you. We were talking about this. We were saying like you, Annie, made the point. You're like, it's crazy how you can kind of tell who's been, when a man in particular

but has been privately educated because they just, I fuck you automatically. They don't even, like, they don't necessarily want to fuck you, but they are trained to try and seduce everybody. Yeah. And like, dated men who are, yeah. Yeah. It feels really fake when you recognize it. you're like you just do this to everyone like again the like the person I was talking about

doing it I can tell he wasn't because he fancy me but I was just like why are you even looking at me like that like we're like a conversation but I when I was saying about the aspiration thing as well what you said ash about we aspire you know to something and I was thinking the context of what you said Annie about you know near nine high school and it's aspiring maybe for like an acceptance by these men or like being desired Oh yeah, that's definitely a big thing for me. Being desired by these particular men. And it would make sense that it's not like you're necessarily going for posh boys.

The through line there is like it's the posh boys you'd tease you or maybe make fun of you. But then you also go through men who might not be like as middle class, etc. But the through line is they're the boys who would have been like playing football and then like, you know, insult. You said it had no tits or something. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. But the aspiration there is, you know, I'm being desired by you now. accepted by you and being chosen by you.

And it's this weird mix of like, yeah, go on. Well, no, I was just going to say like, as well, I think a lot of my type is just I'm so obsessed of what the people around me would think of that person. And it's like people that have like, which I'm sure is the same for a lot of people. Like whoever I think that people in a wider social circle be like, wow, she's with him. I find attractive and like people that, like, I'm not, I don't know how often I go off what I actually find attractive and how off I go off what's like widely considered attractive. And it's so stupid because like no one actually cares he'd end up with like your friends

want you to be happy, but they're not really going to be like, it's almost like if I'm doing that thing where you sort of disassociate and like look at the bus and you're listening to music, you make up a weird scenario in your head, like I'll imagine. or like I used to like imagine a wedding and it'd be like me in front of a big so many people being told that this person loves me and we was looking so good together it's about like what other people think looks good not what yourself so I feel like in that way my type is so flitting around these are all things that I'm hopefully exiting as a problem well I was I was going to ask you a question which is are we really the best authorities on what kind of partner would be a good

match for us. And what would happen? I realize this is going to be the most South Asian thing I've ever said, but like arranged marriages, consider them. But like what would happen if you outsourced the entirety of your dating life decisions to the people who love you the most? I definitely wouldn't trust my mum, but I would trust Moia. I would love it if you just...

No, because I was asking a friend for Vand about someone for you the other day. And they were like, no, they were like, he's bad news. And I was like, but is he hot? And they were like, well, it's fine then. I was like, it's fine then. All right. So clearly, clearly it can't be Moyer because you guys are sharing the one brain stuff of there.

Like, no, no, no, no. Clearly Moyers than abler me. Yeah. No, I think when you, I suppose when you see other people, when, like the date climate's quite crap at the minute, obviously. But like when you do see people starting to go out, I feel like a lot of the time it is when they've been set up with a friend, set out by a friend.

I want to just go back to that aspiration thing because that's really fucking lodged in my brain as a maybe life-changing understanding of how the type of person you attract to you, why it might change. Because I was thinking about why my type of person has changed. And I've realized you talk about therapy so much, you know, the things I've done in therapy and things I've talked to in therapy, I have a much better understanding of myself,

or rather that my sense of self is quite lacking in a lot of ways. Like, I, my sense of self is very fragile. I think I'm only starting to really understand and form it. And the choices I'm making are now very different because what I'm aspiring to is very different than maybe even the more a year ago. You know, a year ago, I would have really aspired to keep pushing in my professional life

and I'd want more certain types, certain types of attention, like validation from a certain place. And now I'm getting increasingly repulsed by the digital world and the pressure it brings. And I'm starting to realize, like, how much I've been numbing myself. And my aspiration is, we talked about this the other day, like, I think it's starting to be peace. And I think this kind of partner that I'm dating now is someone who's very peaceful with

himself. And we had a long conversation the other day about how he was like, you know, you're always looking ahead and worrying about their head and what I really love to kind of work with you on is being happy in the moment or being able to look around right now. He was like, you signed a book deal and you're just like next, don't like that, rubbish, whatever. He was like, most people, he was like, you need to sit down and just almost do nothing and stop giving yourself things to distract yourself from so you can understand what's like to be content at the moment because I'm always worried that you're just going to keep looking ahead. You're not going to

to see what we have right now. And I just thought that someone like that I would have run a million fucking miles from. I was looking for people before who I could aspire to who would not hold me, hold me in a moment. I aspired to people who, you know, could maybe like bossing around,

control me a little bit, tell me what to do. And also we're very confident. Like in my past, I chose partners who would pick a restaurant who'd tell me, you know, we're going to do this, we're going to go and do this, who had confidence,

I did not have in moving through the world. And I sort of took those skills like a vampire and then moved to the next person. And I was saying to the therapist the other day, I was like, we're having a discussion. She was like, oh, but you know, don't leave your partner as soon as you've grown up. I was like, no, no, no, no. I always glow up when I'm with a partner. And she was like, way, way, this is something we haven't even got on to. And I was like, yeah, I just take their best traits.

And she was like, well, I've just had locked a whole bunch of shit that had to get into. But it was, I was, when you're talking about aspiration, I'm like, what am I aspiring? I use these people to give me a sort of sense of self. And so not to press the Taylor Swift Claxton, but I do want to press the Taylor Swift claxon. Something I was talking about and it relates to your wedding fantasy, Annie, was we were talking about Taylor Swift's massive wedding and how her wedding would always have reflected the partner she's with. It's, you don't have any idea what Taylor Swift wants, but you can tell from looking at her wedding at sports arena with food trucks that she's marrying a sports fratbro. If she'd been marrying her ex-boyfriend, she would be in. the Lake District in very private, no one would know about it. Like that woman is a

chameleon who doesn't really have a sense of self. The whole thing is that she wanted a huge wedding in front of people so she'd been chosen. And I think that when you have a partner, like, suddenly the person changes and accords with the partner and filters it through that, it's probably befitting that we're like not really sure exactly when we're just aspire to something and that person is telling us about our sense of self. And I actually blow my mind with this aspiration thing. I feel like I've got a much better lock on like, oh my God. I was going to, I guess, say though, that thinking in types is really not something like you do when you are in a long commitment, aspiring to be lifelong commitment with somebody. Because who they were when you met them changes.

And if you are too fixed in how you perceive them, the commitment will break. The relationship will break down because ultimately. you are inhibiting them from being alive and being in the world and being changed by the world, which I think is the sort of breakdown point of so many relationships. And so me and my partner have changed together. Obviously, you know, there was that power struggle element, right? That tug of war of going, who gets to define the relationship. But there are ways in which being together has changed us, both in terms of it has made you feel safe enough to, you know, unlock different aspects of your personality.

Like when I first met him, he wasn't very funny. Witty, but not funny. Because his actual sense of humour is really goofy. And I think when we first met and he was, you know, a particular stage in his career and a particular investment in being seen a certain way. It was that, you cannot be goofy, sir. You know, no fighting in the war room. Like, you know, no goofing in momentum was kind of where he was at.

and through being together and not just that, but through the kind of household and family dynamic that we've built with our best friend, it's like, no, that goofiness is really prominent. So he is not the same type as the man who I first encountered and got in a relationship with. And I think that this is something which is, what are the ways in which we have to grow and mature

in order to be capable? of committing to something, right? When does the wedding stop being this spectacle of I've been chosen and maybe if I've been publicly chosen, it can fix all these things that I feel about myself? And when does it become an invitation for your community into the private bond which already exists between you, right? When does it become a ritual of we're going to help you stay together

for the rest of your lives rather than, look at me, I'm not actually so loveless as I thought I was or so undeserving of love and so worthless. You know, when I look at Taylor Swift, I go, she's never fucking gotten there. Do you know what I mean? Like, there is such a state of arrested development. Like, she's 36 and she still talks about the archetypes of high school.

Do you know what I mean? Like, do you sometimes think that's going to be me if I'm not careful. You'd just hold my shit out. But I'm not. Taylor doesn't have a therapist. She said, therapist are mum so you've already gone like three steps better but I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not adding anyone but I'm just saying that I think that no no I think in terms of types is is sort of

adolescent do you know what I mean and that's like an adolescent way of conducting relationships and and it's this other kind of like weird complicated often nameless thing that is is a relationship and I'm not saying that we're going to stay together for the rest of our lives I hope so but you know men are crazy they do crazy things what about you we've got to do everything on this podcast. We do crazy things too. Women can just be as good. That's equality. I'm crazy, but I'm lazy. There's not much I'm going to do that's disruptive to the relationship because that

would involve leaving the house. But I mean, that's also the thing. Like, when do you, when you commit to a relationship? Like, when do you, when is that actually the right time to leave? We talk a lot about, you know, being in relationships and quitting too early or not even, you know, the commitment phobia that means you can't even get on a fucking date nowadays. It's so hard to get on a date. That commitment phobia is nuts.

But on the other side of that, when should you actually leave? I think there is a dual problem here that I see with couples, which is or and singles, which is the singles can't get on the dates because especially in London, they don't want to, like, there's such. Annie can speak to this. Like the level of just flakiness before you're even in that room together is insane. And on the other hand, you've got. couples who are just hanging on and being like, I'm going to open up the relationship and I think that will solve everything and just staying together miserably, you know, buying houses together or getting engaged. You're like, you literally hate each other.

When, why can't we seem to figure out how to commit, but also how to leave? What, what's going on there? Anyone? Anyone, any order? Wait, Annie, tell us about the, um, commitment phobia of getting on dates because it is. not. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, even I was just thinking, Ash, when you were saying about how your husband wasn't that funny when you met him, like, it's quite hard to imagine, I feel now someone's saying, like, I feel like someone would be like, go on a date, but like, he wasn't funny and then just like not, like, losing interest in that person. And it's, and that's also in the book, something I kind of, I feel like I would like people to take from a bit of, they're, they're both so flawed, like, Daisy and James in it. And like, he obviously is. says these absolute clangers and it's a bit of a dick,

but sort of balancing that idea of, like, what happens if you did stick around that person and see them grow, but also in the book there's kind of a conversation about emotional labour and things like that and women working on men, because that's obviously like a bit of a thing where you don't want to encourage women to stick around

with a guy who's a nightmare. But that was something I was worried about when I was writing the book, but then I realised that could just be like a conversation, in the book. But yeah, like, I feel like I want the book to be a bit of an answer to that kind of everyone being so disposable in the dating climate. But I feel like at the minute everyone's just so, like, scared of hurting each other and they don't really want to let things just happen. It's almost like they're ahead of time worried they're going to hurt someone. So before they get in too

deep and hurt them, they're just like, who no. And it's like, I think people's just a inevitable part of love, like it does just happen. And like no one allows himself to kind of experiment and let things run ahead. And like you're allowed to wait and see. No one wants to wait and see anymore. I think the problem is the container. I think maybe sometimes there's too much waiting and seeing. I think that like actually the existence of trust is so important. Like so, so, so important. And I think that that's why dating apps have created a ghosting epidemic is because it created a prisoner's dilemma, right? Like, betray before you yourself are betrayed, a ghost before you yourself are ghosted, because there is no container which can hold people

together and allow trust to be built. So it's sort of like atoms whizzing around and there's like a moment of like colliding and it's like and if they don't sort of have this like intense like chemical reaction that like bonds them, then they just like end up sort of going in two different directions again. Whereas having a shared social world, maybe shared friendship group or a shared political milieu or their family knows your family or, you know, you're involved in the same, like, I don't know, team sport or whatever, right? Like that is a sort of social container, right? That can hold two people together.

Obviously, we've talked about this already, but like getting set up, whether it's through the like uber-duper, super intense, you know, lens of like an arranged marriage, which I also I think is kind of fucked because arranged marriages are all about class status. They're absolutely all about class status. Or like friends setting you up. That's another form of container. And I think that this thing of like, well, let's wait and see before we get in a relationship. I actually think giving something a title of a relationship and not just like we're dating

is important because I think that's part of the trust. I think that like people, we can't be our best selves unless we trust. trust somebody and you can't trust someone unless you've got a reason to believe that they're not going to leave you high and dry. So I think that we should be quicker to get into a relationship and following, you know, what I call the Moyer method of like, you know, what are the four horsemen of like, you know, contempt and indifference and blah, blah, blah, blah, like break up when those things kick in. But I'm like, no, get in the relationship. Don't wait and see. But I kind of mean like people are scared to let themselves get into a relationship because they're so worried

what if it's not what I want and it's like you can get into one and then decide it's not like you're not even you're just cutting everything off before you've let it happen oh it's totally see what you mean yeah yeah I see what you mean everyone's scared they're scared of because the panoptical of surveillance that means that we think all of we think now we have an audience for everything I think this comes across in the book really well like Daisy is just there is always this imagining audience that she sees that is like looking at her with the most critical, unforgiving eye from,

and the way she sees herself is so at odds with the way that like James Amaya sees her. And she's almost shocked when she hears how they view her, how they perceive her. And, you know, there's a scene at the start where she's talking about her body and how she feels like she's had a romantic disappointment. And she's like talking about her.

breast and instead of like breast, this huge, horrible, like mommy milkers. Like, she describes them these really visceral terms. And then you've got like, Maya saying to her, like, you're so beautiful.

Like, everyone fancies you. You're like the most bucks of milk made. You're gorgeous and you're so fun. You're so interesting. And you make everyone feel like, you know, there is a line where one of the annoying men and characters is like,

you always make people feel like they're on holiday. But you see these little flashes of how other people perceive her. And then you see how she sees herself. And it's so fascinating, like the level of critique her audience, her imagined audience has and how much she lives her life according to that. And I think it's so many people are going to relate to this book. Already when you see the reviews of it, it's like people are like, oh my God,

it's taken thoughts that I didn't even know I had. And we're saying this. But I think social media in particular gives us the most critical audience when other, which is weird because the actual audience is looking and they're seeing the highlights. But we ourselves who's posting highlights are seeing somehow the worst version, because maybe it's the gap between the reality that we know and the highlight real we're trying to post or the life we're trying to create the persona. And that gap makes us feel crazy, crazy stuff. We're like, we're fraudulent. And everyone knows it, but everyone's looking at being like, wow, what a glossy, beautiful person.

It's like the super ego has taken steroids. Yeah. Like this is, there's always been a part of like human psychology, particularly if you sort of like buy into, like, Freud mapping of the mind. But like, again, I feel like I'm going to pull out a Zijek impression, like once every episode. But it's sort of like, the super ego is looking, providing analysis. You know, it's like, God, he can see everything.

Your Zijsac impression sounds like, is it the bat from Anastasia? My uncle was a food bat, and he just dropped. Mead Mengo. Yeah, it sounds like an animated anthropomorphized animal from either Disney or Dreamingok. I love that little bat. But maybe as soon as you take you just, it's like the bad now.

We're always doing the bad, you know, I wouldn't do it. But yeah, it's a super ego. When people tell me that they find Timothy Shalamey attractive, I think he does look like that bat, just sort of like little and white. I don't think, I feel like Timmy was, so Timmy went through his beauty phase where he was like a beautiful twink, Renaissance Twink painting and that's, when Club Chalame, the van account, loved him.

And now he's aged into what I like to call the Leo DiCaprio Wilderness Years, where his acting talent will carry him through, but he does look like a normal, like Leonardo DiCaprio went from being this beautiful enjou into looking like Jack Nicholson from, and he stayed in that phase for a good, 40 years. Beautiful, what?

Angenui, enchui, enchui. Enchonue, ingenue. So I thought, I was like, enjui, whatever that means. Enjue. I was like, this is me, like. speaking Spanish after watching Narcos. He looked like Ganymede, right?

He was Ganymede. And now he's morphed into, I don't know, Dionysus. He's in his solid, he went, he left his 20s and he just immediately was like, right, dad mode. And he's a great actor. So it doesn't actually matter. And, you know, Timothy Chalameh is going through the same thing. He's gone from his Ganymed era.

Now he's in his, I am just a normal man whose features are aging and don't, and they're not beautiful anymore. But it's funny watching the 50-something your old woman who stand him only because of his beauty, now reject him and go instead to another young 20s beautiful man, Connoisseurie. That is a very funny thing to me.

That is a crazy lady. Shall we do a dilemma? Yes. Let's solve some problems. Annie, are you ready to solve some problems? I'm ready. Whenever you ready, I'm ready. I'm ready.

Are you ready? I'm ready. Whenever you ready. I'm ready. Have you seen that Cheryl Cole mean, chat? Ash. Oh, it's X Factor and they go. There was like a clip on Harry Hill.

Wait, should we try to do it? You be Cheryl. Okay, right. Whenever you're ready. I'm ready. Whenever you're ready. I'm ready. If you're ready.

ready. And it just goes back. And then she finally sings, but it's like, so good. Okay, we're ready. Okay. So if you are in big trouble, medium trouble, small trouble, email us. If I speak at Navaramedia.com. If I speak at Navaramedia.com, I'm going to read this out and then I'm going to just let you guys talk about it. What, no, you have to add to. Sorry, Ash, that's the rules. I don't know, but I'm hungry now. I don't care. This is our job. I care. All right. This is job.

Hi, Ash and Moyer, and also Annie, love the show. I have a question about feeling jaded romantically. I'm a 32-year-old man and I'm struggling with becoming romantically cynical, not in how I behave in relationships, but in whether I believe I'll ever actually find a mutually loving one. I've dated consistently, been in relationships and situationships and had a few close calls that didn't work out for different reasons. Last year I met someone who, for me, really felt like the full package, emotionally, intellectually, values-wise, but she didn't feel the romantic spark, and we ended up staying friends. Since then, I've noticed two things happening at once.

My standards feel higher because I've seen how good compatibility can be, but my faith feels lower because I'm no longer convinced it'll work out for me. I'm still dating, but without that sense of optimism. Also, randomly, I got banned from Hinge. I think it might have been my ex who I saw on the app. On top of that, I'm aware of the wider. factors, and 5-7, probably below or average-looking, and while I've done okay given my circumstances, I'm not yet where I want to be financially or career-wise. How do you stop

disappointment and realism from hardening into fatalism and stay emotionally open without lying to yourself or forcing hope you don't actually feel? Would love a response, keep the great work going on? I think Annie should go first. Yeah, I've got, well, what I think, like, that your romantic life sounds pretty good. Like, you know, every relationship that doesn't work out ends and you've seemed to have like a mix of situationships, relationships. Like, you're, that's, that's more than a lot of people now who are kind of stuck in a cycle of like, I've been on 10 first dates this year, didn't get to a second one, like in this endless churn. Like, to me that sounds really good and it's maybe just more your, not saying it's like, you know, it's so fair to

want to find someone and to want to be in love. Like you can have that and like it sucks if you want that and you don't have it yet. But I feel like don't feel like don't paint it as you have this miserable romantic life. I didn't even I didn't even clock that. Because it doesn't know that you do. That's fucking. Oh, wisdom. That was wisdom.

That was great. I was just like when I was thinking about this dilemma, I'm thinking, first of all, I think getting banned from Hinge is actually such a. great gift. A really great gift. You're free. And you're also free from, because you at the end say, yeah, you're free. Five, seven, probably below average looking. Whether you are those things or not, on an app, those sort of characteristics and categories are not going to help you finding someone. And it's also making you feel more insecure about how you're categorized. We talked about this in the height shaming at Ash. It's being aware of that on an app like that is all, it's

It's going to start you off feeling insecure, whereas when you're in the real world, it's just you and the person and the connection that you're making. And you can have, as Annie says, it sounds like you have a very active romantic life. It's just it hasn't yet turned into a long-term relationship. But you dated someone, you know, last year. And it was a close call you said. You know now what you want in a person, what that looks like. And I think every relationship, like you kind of gestured at Annie, every relationship we have takes us closer. to, okay, I want this, this is what I need, I really love this trait.

And the more open we are to it, the more you get there. I do believe sometimes when you get really fatalistic in the single world, like it's good to take breaks. I definitely took like a lot of breaks from dating when I was getting really run down about it. And when I said this on the show before, when I met my partner, it was at a period where I'd taken a year off dating. I'd taken a full year off, didn't have sex, didn't date. and then I came back, I got back in the game,

I'd got on therapy, and I was like, okay, I'm just going to have fun. And I'd also resign myself. Actually, not even resign, resigns the one word. I'd made peace with the idea that, you know, there might be a world I'd meet a partner, but I also might never have a long-term relationship again, but I'd have a string of lovers. And I was like, what would I want my life to look like if it goes that down that way? And would it be really good?

I was like, yeah, that'll be a really good life. And it didn't mean something that I wasn't lonely at times. It didn't mean that I didn't, you know, think, I would be so nice to have someone. I was dating. Obviously, I wanted that element. But it was coming to terms with like, my life could look like this.

And it could be really good if it does look like this. And I think that took some pressure off. But again, I don't want children, which also really helps, I think, with dating easily because Ash and I've talked about this as well. You're looking for different traits in a potential partner. You're not thinking like this person not only has to be romantic partner in me,

but they have to be a parent to my children. So if you want children special and I think there's stuff there. But I do advise breaks when you're feeling really down because if you're dating someone, you're feeling fatalistic, that's a lot of pressure to put on someone else to revitalise your faith in dating. And they can sense it. They can sense it.

And it seeps out. It seeps out. I don't know. I'm kind of different, like in the sense, I think I feel more ground, like more chill about it when I'm like, I know one day I'm going to find the person, like I'm going to fall in love again. And like, I remember my auntie saying,

oh, it's so annoying that you can't know when you're going to find someone. Say if someone said, oh, in five years, you're going to find love of your life. You just enjoy this whole time. It's really annoying that you'd haven't, it feels like it's never going to happen until it does happen. But I find it, unless you obviously are like in a place where you need to,

you have no confidence and things like that. I feel like for me, taking a more active role in looking for someone makes me feel better because I feel, I don't know, like sometimes I think I'm not even, when you feel really passive and like you're not doing anything about it, and you're like maybe on the tube and you keep seeing hot people and you're not talking to them, like, I feel like when you are doing more things about it, it makes me feel more excited and more like, I know it's going to happen at some point. and but I think doing those things and trying to detach to detach in the outcome a little bit and treat it as like a confidence exercise of like oh I've started this new hobby to meet new people

or like I looked at this person in the pub for a little bit longer than I normally would because I'm trying to signal to them something oh my God I'm getting better at like making eye contact people like I don't know like asking a friend if they will set you up with someone like even the act of asking being like God, I'm getting more, and the more you do it, like, does make you feel better and more confident about yourself, I think. I think, special one, you've turned a self-esteem problem into a relationship problem, and I think that that's what's underneath it, which is, I don't think that any of the things that you've said are unusual for a 32-year-old.

I don't think it's unusual to be like, well, I've dated, and I met someone who I thought was really the person for me, but they didn't feel the same way, and I've had situationships, and I've had close calls. like none of that is telling me a story of somebody who's like really struggling to meet people that's telling me a story of like that's like a fairly ordinary track record for a 32 year old I think how you feel about it and you've already sort of said this is like how do you turn a stop that like disappointment and frustration from turning into something more fatalistic I think the answer to that is it's about building up your sense of self and your

resilience in the face of rejection or disappointment or things like not working out for whatever reason. I agree with Moyer. I think being banned from Hinge is probably a blessing. I did not work on the dating apps. Like, and I like to think it's because, you know, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like uni or foie gras. I'm an acquired taste. I am a, you know, rarefied elite taste. But I just, I just didn't translate well onto dating apps. Like, you know, I'm a, you know, I felt like everyone else had gotten a rulebook that I didn't and, you know, definitely not as conventionally attractive as some other people. And I just, I felt shit about myself.

But if I were to hone in on it and be like, okay, well, I'm brown and okay, well, I'm not a size six. And like, okay, well, you know, I have a nose, which is built for sniffing out whether or not there is a Chinese takeaway in a two mile radius, right? I could focus on those things. Or I could be like, well, where am I? at my best. And so if I change the setting away from the dating apps and away from photographs, quite frankly, and I change it into like, where do I feel most alive and where do I feel most

active and present and engaged? I'm like, God damn, I am a fucking cat. You put me on a wedding dance floor. I swear to God. Like, game over. Cut the cameras, dead ass. Like, that's where I'm at my best. So a special one, I would say, treat that as a blessing and think about where are the places that you feel best and put yourself in more of them. I think that's really interesting because when I think of the people that you date, Annie, you meet a lot of them when you're out. Hmm. And I don't know, it's kind of a mix.

I've never been going to hinge either. I've not been on that many hinge dates. Thinking about like this idea of where we are our best, where we are our most comfortable. And like, I think it's quite telling that I met my partner accidentally through this podcast. Because you feel fucking great about it. myself. I met my husband essentially through politics. Through politics. Essentially through politics and the social milieu that comes with it and knowing that this is

like an arena where I feel really confident and I feel I feel like I have something to contribute. Like I feel like I'm at my best when I feel I've got something to give. Ultimately, on hinge, I didn't feel like I had much to give because I felt like it was a photograph competition. That's what it is. It is a photograph competition and there is always someone out there with like better photo. There was nothing to remind you that you that you, that you You are one, nothing to make you feel like not only you replaceable, but there's other people who just like exactly the same as you in exactly the same ways or like funnier, prettier, smarter than Hinge.

Or like any app that works on a comparative basis and it just flattens you all to characteristics. Whereas when you are out, people can see, they get the cues, they can feel and it's like, you, I think you're really interesting in specific and individualized ways. and that's why I'm talking to you and not your friend but we're on an app it's like we're going by this conventional checklist 100% and it like it doesn't have to be going like out like dancing or clubbing

if that's not for you special one one of my best friends and I fucking love this about him is so into virtual air traffic control simulation he loves it and he's like sort of become a bit of like because he's a little bit older than you know quite a lot of people who are into like vatsim.

And I even do the shortening because I'm so like, you know, I've absorbed some of this from from him. He like gives advice to these like younger guys who are struggling with girls. And he's like, well, you know, I have a long-term partner and I've got a good job and I've got a house and I can like show leadership this way. It is a space which brings out the best in him, you know, or like, you know, this is him again, but also other people who got like really, really involved with like the local green party and like we're out canvassing and door knocking.

Like, I'm really good at this. And, like, putting yourself in those spaces where you have something to contribute, I think that's key. It's not just, like, I feel like my best. It's like you feel you're giving something of value. I'm just talking about that made me think about one of our sort of, like, friends who met her partner when they were at a pub quiz, and she's both really good quizzes and really enthusiastic

and just so, like, funny and idiosyncratic. And she fell for the partner. he already sort of like knew about her and stuff she felt with the point because he did an amazing Al Pacino impression and she is obsessed with Al Pacino and just thinking about these people both in their best environments, they're most comfortable and meeting about this shared interest

but also like singular like language. I have to know what Al Pacino quote she could tell you but I don't know but I'm just thinking about people when we meet people that we date and even the ones that didn't work out with the ones that I've actually like remembered dating-wise and how we've met. It's almost no...

I've had a few relationship from my apps, but there were other things that had already brought us into the same orbit. We had pre-existing connections in some ways apart from my very first boyfriend. But yeah, I'm thinking about being at your best. Where are we at our best?

Well, I was thinking that kind of sucks for me because I'm like, I'm not going to meet anyone writing at my screen, but I love writing and reading, but I don't want to go to a book club because I already know what I want to read. And I don't want to go to. to one of those literary events because that sounds a bit navel-gazing.

But I'll just hang around some cafes looking lost with my book. You in a cafe is like writing and reading all the time. I'd say cafes medium space for me. Not my best, but not my worst. I'm at my worst when I'm writing. I have to tell you that, guys. I'm at my worst one of

Spurs play Chelsea. But shall we wrap the shit up? Yeah, yeah, let's wrap it up. Annie Lord. The project is out. Yeah, Lord Annie. The project is out now is really good. I've sometimes felt like saying like the perfect summer read makes it seem season restrictive.

I think the project is the perfect all year round read. But it is out in summer and you will not regret this if you buy this for your various park trips, beach trips, train rides.

Like it is such a good book and you're going to see the cover everywhere. So get on it now. And you've got loads of events coming up. So if people want to know when those are happening,

what's your social media? Annie Lord. And then number eight is my Instagram handle. Fab. Go there. You can catch Annie at various events around the country,

including, I think, Edinburgh Festival. You can catch me in Ashland if I speak every week. We'll just see us here. If you want to see us. Easy to find. Hard to be. Exactly.

Thank you, special ones. We love you. See you soon. Bye. Bye.