If I Speak - 123: How can I get better at dealing with rejection?

Episode Date: July 28, 2026

Ash dreams up a whole new category – Disasterclass – in order to talk about inevitable pain of rejection. Whether it’s jobs, romance, friends or success, how much damage can rejection ultimately cause? Plus: early reviews of the Andy Burnham era. Get tickets for Ash at the Southbank Centre on 26 September. Send us your dilemmas: [e-mail] Music by Matt Huxley.

Hello and welcome to Navarra Live. Coming up on tonight's show. That's my Michael Walker impression, but it's not very good. I can't do any impressions, unfortunately. It's a big Achilles heel of mine that I can't impersonate other people. You're quite good impressions. That's, you know what? That's made me feel very happy, because I feel crushed inside when I try an impression of someone that's shit.

That's how I feel all the time. you can do some impressions. I've had some good impressions from you. So I think, don't feel so crushed. Remember, there's always someone out there who can't do a single impression. And that's someone who is me. Can you whistle? Nope.

Give you a go? No. Try a whistle. I can't whistle. I never learned to whistle. That's actually why I yawn weird, because when I yawn, you mightn hear when I go, it's because I used to also use that to whistle. Oh.

And now I just make a weird noise with it. So one of my favorite things, and it's just, it's such a like micro thing that I enjoy is I enjoy hearing people who can't whistle, try to whistle. Is that just cruelty? No, I think it's really cute. I think it's like, I think it's incredibly endearing. Well, yeah, I can't whistle. It's very annoying.

I'd love to whistle. There's lots of people I want to harass in the street, and I just can't. The only thing. keeping you from sexually harassing people is is the lack of whistling and then I would do it with great abandon it would be so fun wouldn't it just all the time welcome to if I speak a whistle stop tour of neuroses and personal

problems for the overthinkers amongst you I'm Ash Sarker and I can whistle and who are you I'm where Loden McLean can whistle when did you learn to whistle I think it was some time after I learned to burp on command, which was, I think I spent a lot of time as a kid in the mirror practicing burping, and then whistling came after. You would have gone down so well on various CBBC game shows.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd have been one of those disgusting kids. You had the skill sets. You were actually honing the skill sets to win like a trophy on a gun show. The thing is, is that I can only do this whistle. they're like, but I can't do the whistle where you put your fingers in your mouth. That's an incredible whistle.

Yeah. Right. I think you've got some questions for me. I do have some questions for you, Ash, because this is our regular intro segment, 73 questions, minus 70, because we simply do not have the time nor the inclination to come up with our full 73 questions. So, beginning. Which of your four humors are out of balance? And I will list the four humors so that you know what they are.

phleg black bile blood and yellow bile um what's the difference between black bile and yellow bile um one is melancholic and one isn't let me find out they all have apparently emotions attached they do they do um so blood is associated with uh optimistic courageous social temperament this is all from BBC shit um yellow bile an excess of yellow bile an excess of yellow Bile causes ambition, temper and passion. Black bile and excess leads to introspection, melancholy and depression, and phlegm, an excess causes apathy, sluggishness and calm. I actually think that my humours are really well balanced at the moment. I would describe myself as sanguine. Ooh. I just, I'm feeling good. That's blood. I'm feeling good. Yeah. I'm just feeling,

feeling good, woke up, full of gratitude for being alive this morning. It so depends on where I am hormonally. So depends. What about you? I think at the moment my blackbiles a little out of whack, I would say. But not in a really bad way, more in a, just, you know, big changes, big thinking. Lots of things to consider. lots of things to consider

it's just hard it's quite hard because at the moment I'm being quite a downer on London certain aspects of London I love London but I can be quite a downer and some people have been like maybe you should not be such a downer all the time and I agree but it's quite hard to stop being a downer

I think people move in phases with this stuff like when a human being defecated on on the front wall of my friend's house, I felt awful about London for weeks. For weeks, it just felt like such a grim distillation of all the social problems that exist here. And then for the last few weeks,

you know, you walk through the park and all the grass is a bit scorched and people are laying out. And one of the things about the area where I live is that the parks are really well used. So I was walking through the park on my way back from getting lunch. And there was just a picnic.

One of the local primary schools had organized a picnic for the kids and for their parents. And they were sort of playing games. I was like, oh, love London in the summer. So I think you will find that the black bile will subside. Yeah, I think also it's not London per se. It's not actually London. I love London. I still think London is the city.

You know, it's the city. She's that girl. She is, she dicks on all others. even maybe New York, sorry. I don't care about New York. Oh, 100%. Yeah, I actually don't care about New York at all. I just use that because people like the two.

It's more certain predilections that I think are present within some of the London circles. And that's not to say it's even Londonified. It's just because I associate those things with London. But it can be quite a transactional place. And I'm a bit tired of that. But I don't need to talk about it all the time. It's the problem. So I'm trying to, it's just very hard to be like light and fun and like, oh my God, I'm just going to party when you're not feeling like, I want to party.

You don't have to party. There are so many non-party activities. You know what you can do is set yourself a pointless, physical, playful goal. I did that this week and I achieved it and I felt great. Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with that. What I'm kind of saying is more that I'm, there's around people in my own. life you're like, I just want to have a good time. And I'm like, I'm not actually a good time at the moment. And I think you might be shift your goalpost of what is a good time. Yeah, well, I'm just anyway. Anyway, next question. I have another question for you. This is a, this has become a central

segment instead of next question. I should have gone next question. So next question. Are you a burn and believer? Ah. And then I saw his face. I'm a believer. Um, no, I'm not a burn and believer, but I also think that the people who are trying to say, oh, he's just a continuity stammer, are wrong or they've not considered what if they're wrong. And this is a strategic question rather than a sort of cosign or endorsement question, which is I think the thing that is causing this error of thinking, which is, is, you know, if Andy Burnham is continuity Starma, that's really easy for the left, right?

You just keep doing what you've already been doing because you know how to run against Stama. Zach Polanski was a really effective threat to Stammer's left. And I actually think you don't get Andy Burnham without Zach Polanski. Anti-Bernham's a product of labour feeling disciplined by the left in some way. And I think that because of that success, it becomes a little bit of, I don't know,

it goes from being, oh, like here's a set of tactics that worked to that's the basis of your understanding of what's happening. And I think that that becomes very dangerous because, you know, we're speaking for full disclosure on the 21st of July.

So literally the day after Burnham into Standing Street and still up for grabs for what he's going to going to do, but there's been stuff briefed about, you know, rent freezes, yada, yada, yada. If he does those things, he'll still be shit and reactionary on immigration. I think perhaps rhetoric around things like Gaza might change, but like in terms of material, tangible policy, I'm not sure. But even if he's, you know, say, inadequate on those things, you can't just run on those things and expect it to be a majority

project. So I'm not a believer, but do you think that the left is a little bit in its happy place of trying to do some pigeonholing and hasn't considered what if your pigeonholing isn't quite or entirely right. Would you ever get behind him? No.

So I mean, it depends what you mean by get behind, right? So in the constituency that I live in, which is Tottenham, David Lammy is my MP. And I'm never voting for David Lammy again as long as I live. Quite straightforward. So actually, have I ever voted for David Lammy? No, I haven't because of how the elections have fallen.

So I've never actually voted for David Lammy before and I will not break the habit of a lifetime. So I will not be voting Labour in the next general election if that's what you mean by get behind. Yeah, I guess so. but I mean also just rhetorically. I think what I want to do and what I want to try and do is be curious and attentive to facts. When facts change, your opinions should change rather than your opinion is fixed

and then you interpret facts through your already existing opinion. Yeah. Okay. I agree. Next question. What item in your house would you find, hardest you part with? My husband, no.

No, these are, we're talking material goods only. Laptop. Laptop. In a fire, would you save your laptop? If all the living beings have first been rescued, i.e. housemate, husband and cat. Probably a laptop, yeah. I would take my laptop with me in this event of a fire.

It's just too much fat. It burns, you know. So far. there just pick it up the fire brigade are gonna send us to the angry emails okay it depends where the fire is but if I'm near my laptop I'm picking up as well as yeah I'm not going back into the flames for it yeah through the fire all the everlasting all right those are two songs already chaka khan she doesn't she doesn't count because she's so good you can just sing chakkan whole show it's fine um right I'm gonna move us along I'm gonna move us along because I

I've got a middle segment which is neither big theory nor intrusive thought nor mystery question. Yeah. And I actually, I propose a new category of things. Okay, what's the category? I'm excited. Let's hear it. Disaster class. Disaster class.

Explain this to me. Disaster class. I mean, actually, I wanted to call it Masterclass. but then I thought that that would be too self-aggrandizing. So it's a self-deprecating way of saying, I think that maybe we have something to offer in the way of a social program. And that bit wasn't the self-acredizing bit.

This is Lena Dunham's, I'm the voice of a generation moment. For instance, when we did our dating one, which is like how to have a good date, Yeah. Like, what should the approach be? And like, what should you do? Like, that's, that's its own category of thing. Yeah.

It's a social program. We should call it something else. Disaster class, I think, is correct. Or, like, ignore this advice or something like that. Because when we did the dating one, I ignored my advice immediately. Five-year plan. I took your advice. So maybe it's just your social program.

And I'm the student, you're the teacher here. Great leap forward. Great leap forward. Great leap forward. We can't call it. It's stuff like this, Ash. People died. Millions of people died.

We did get an email about this from someone about communism, millions of people dying, which I'm not reading out right now, but at some point I'm sure we'll read it out. I mean, like, let's do the fucking death count of capitalism and then talk to me. No, I'm not doing that. So I'm not reading the email out.

I'm not, I'm not legit. I can't say the word. Legitimizing. No, no, no. Legit. What's the word? Would you do? Litigating? Litigating.

I'm not litigating this. Also, some fucking, I can't say the word, see you next Tuesday, commented on our last show being like, Moy's a working journalist and struggling with words like phenotype and analogous. I can't even say it then. And I'm like, I read all my words, okay? I read my words. It doesn't, like, they were like, I feel much better about my imposter syndrome. Okay, buddy, come and do my job.

Come and do my job. I can promise you you won't feel good about it then. Also, that pissed me off. I think it's fine to be pissed off. One of the things, and I thought about this recently, I thought about this recently, is like, it is better to mispronounce a word or even have a more limited vocabulary, but have a solid grasp on meaning than it is to just throw words at a problem. So I listened to an Esther Perel where there was this woman who was being therapist by chat GPT. One of my favorite things about Esther Perel sessions is that you can always detect the imprint of the person's therapist, right? So whoever it is that they're working with before they've come into the session.

And so this woman was so shaped by chat GPT is that it was just constant word salad. So there were all of these highfalutin concepts and words which seemed to point at a deeper meaning. But actually, there was no deeper meaning. There was no understanding. She was a woman without understanding regurgitating a machine which cannot understand. So, Moja, you say analogous like the country cousin you are. No, just fucking say it. It's better that you understand everything you're saying

than you pronounceing it perfectly. Yeah, and I want that to be a lesson out there to people. I know words, I just can't say a lot of them and that's okay. My brain works too fast. I'm too smart and my steak is too juicy. My lobsters too buttery. Sorry, no. It was only a minor quibble.

Anyway, okay, disaster class. Motion past. I want to take that with me all day. All right. So the disaster class is this. It is how to reject and be rejected. Oh, I'm an audience for this one. Because I think that something that no one can be fully honest about is how much they hate rejection.

And I think that we find it difficult to be honest about it because all of us know, at least on a sort of conscious cognitive level that everyone has the right to reject you. It is not an entitlement to not be rejected. So because we know that, because we know that rejection is a fundamental freedom that everyone has, we almost can't look at how much it upsets us because we think it's too obvious

or too stupid for us to really get into. And I think that actually puts people in a really dangerous place. I think that it actually means that they're being governed by feelings and impulses that they can't really look at and it means that they end up behaving in a way which is, you know, delulu sometimes, right? And just straight up crazy. So look, rejection. Nobody likes it. Everybody does it and it is inevitable, right? It will happen to you surely as death and taxes. And I think that because we find that scary, we end up contorting. ourselves into all sorts of weird position so that we can futilely try and create a set of

circumstances where it's not going to happen. And on this point about it being so obvious that people don't want to look at it, I mean, there's a sort of aphorism in politics, which is never ignore the obvious, never neglect the obvious, just because it's obvious doesn't mean it's not worth thinking about what we're talking about. And so I think that because it's obvious that it's painful to be rejected, we try and pretend it's not going on. And then it means that we tell these stories, both to ourselves, to the person who's done the rejecting, to the people around you, to try and locate the wrong somewhere else, right? So pain is at the wheel, but you're trying to find an objective wrong that exists that you can hook it to rather than

the simple fact of rejection. So it's not that you've rejected me, it's that you have been in some way problematic. It's not that you've rejected me. Is that you're actually avoidance, So the reason why you're rejecting me is because, you know, you are emotionally stunted or maladapted in some way. It's not that you rejected me. It's that you implied that actually we'd go to this club night together. But then you said you didn't want to. So now I feel awkward about going to the club night. So maybe you should be the one who doesn't go.

So you locate it in a sort of social script of, you know, minutiae in which, you know, you've done something of a faux par. or you've put me in a position of feeling like I've done a faux par. And then I also think that there is a particular thing where sex positivity has become layered onto the fear of rejection. So something I've seen a million times because I've done it and all my friends have done it and all the people who sleep with my heterosexual male friends have done it is that you'll very often get a situation where a woman,

more often than not, is saying, I'm fine with things being casual. Actually, I don't even want a relationship. Because they think that that's actually the way to get a relationship. They're so scared of scaring off someone, usually a guy, that you think that sort of seduction, temptation, or sort of like proximity management happens by saying, oh, I actually don't want anything.

Because then how can you be rejected if you never want anything? Turns out you can actually be rejected even if you purport not to want anything. And I also think it's sort of chic and empowering to be like, hey, I'm just in this for sex, whereas it's like undignified in shit to be like, oh, I actually really want to be loved because you're so scared of that love being rejected. So look, I think that there are some things that we can explore and reflect on, like why is rejection such a blow to the ego? go, but I want us to get to the point of going, how can we take rejection well and how can we do rejecting well? You know, what are the codes?

Does that point in your life where you think you've taken rejection well? Yeah. And I think there are points in my life where I have taken rejection badly. What was the difference between those points, I guess is my question. So it depends what we're talking about because the other thing is that rejection comes in many forms. So you can be rejected in terms of a job. You can be rejected in terms of, you know, you feel you're putting yourself out there for a life change in some way and it doesn't come together, right? You can feel friendship rejection, romantic rejection, familial rejection. And all of these things have their different.

sort of sensitivities. I suppose if we're thinking about this in terms of romantic rejection, I felt the worst when I hadn't been honest about what I really wanted. So actually when I was trying to do all of that engineering, right, that invisible social engineering to keep someone in my proximity to stay in their orbit or for them to stay in mine and then they rejected me anyway, I felt really awful. But when what I really wanted deep down was in alignment with the signals I was giving off and how I was behaving, rejection felt a lot less painful. Because I was like, well, this is you really telling me that this is not a path to what I want. It's not that you've rejected me, therefore I'm unlovable. It's you can't give me what I want and you were the first to

recognise that. Yeah. I'm just thinking, I'm trying to think about the question because I guess like what exactly are we telling the audience because I don't think I'm very good at rejection per se. In what way are you bad at it? It just stays with me for a very long time. It stays with me for a very long time. I'm not talking about romantic rejection really.

Like romantic rejections, I care about a lot less. There's only one person I can think of as well that I remember who's rejected me romantically, which doesn't mean there's one person who's rejected me romantically. It means I've kind of moved on for all the others quite quickly. That's the one that you recognise. Yeah. The others, I'm just like, yeah, whatever, that happened is fine.

You know, like I'm trying to rack my brains thinking of, I guess my ex in some ways, but we rejected each other. you know, by the end. And we also loved each other for a good chunk before that. So it's, it doesn't feel the same. I don't think that is quite the same. I don't think that rejection is synonymous with breaking up.

Yeah, yeah. Unless it's someone who, it's a surprise breakup and you had no idea about it, in which case then it's a rejection. I was reading about someone who had that the other day. So I think romantically I'm a lot better at handling it. So then what is the kind of rejection that sits with you and stays with you? Friendship rejection. I'm so sensitive to friend and social rejection.

And in fact, I perceive rejection socially at a very low level. I was having a conversation about this yesterday. And it's something that's plaguing me a lot at the moment is this idea of not feeling valued at all and not feeling like I'm, I don't feel comfortable of social settings at the moment. And I feel very like people, and this is the bad thing. Like, I don't know how to describe it. I'm in quite a self-pitying place. I think that's where rejection gets you when you take rejection badly. And it makes you dwell on things that will only exacerbate further rejection.

Because when you're being a downer or whatever, people don't want you around. They don't want you around. Because you're being a down all the time. to try and pull yourself out of it, but it's quite hard. So I think for me, social rejection is something I'm very attuned to. I'm attuned to when I'm like not invited to something. I'm attuned when someone does something for somebody that they wouldn't do for me, even if we're, you know, meant to be the same friendship.

I'm a tune when I do things for someone and then I don't see it back. These silly petty things that I read as signals when they're actually not signals of anything at all. Well, I suppose my question for you would be this, because I think that there's one way of addressing the question where you go, what is it that makes me feel rejected? So you go, I've not been invited to something. I've put myself out there and that wasn't reciprocated or like, da-da-da-da-da. But actually you can flip the question around and you go, well, what would it take for you to feel valued? Yeah, exactly. Because is it always be invited to things? No, it's just what

must put of need? What all this takes as a sense of self and self-esteem? Because I think rejection hits so much harder when you have a low self-esteem or you have a low self-esteem or you have, in a particular area, that is your sore spot, right? And the rejection, when you were rejected, if it is in a spot that you feel pretty confident about and you're quite happy with yourself, it doesn't hurt as much. I'm in lots of ways, I always thought romantic relationships were my problem area, as it were.

And they're actually not. Once I got over, there was, with my current partner as well, especially, bit of therapy. My flare-ups avoidance have been really minor, really easy to overcome, and I'm sure we'll have lots bigger problems down the road. And we'll see how I handle those. But getting into this relationship has been comparatively really easy and not an issue. And when we have a conflict, it's been really easily resolved. Or, you know, there's lots of love and trust there. I have a lot more trust in that relationship. When it's an area where you have less trust and it turns out my area is friendships and social spaces, it's a lot harder to recover from

from it. It's a lot harder you see monsters everywhere. So I think for me, like, I've never felt sensitive about friendship rejection. Like I actually feel quite good and quite solid about all of those things. Romantic rejection has been a big one for me. And the thing is is that I know why that is It's because my dad left me When I was a baby And that was my first experience of rejection

And it was repeated throughout my childhood years Every time I tried to reach out to him He was like, I'm not interested in you So I repeated that pattern romantically Trying to take responsibility For how people felt about me That was a long song It rhymed with several points as well

You know that was serious shit because you sang the entire thing. When you kept seeing, I was like, this is a really ball spot. No, it's, but it's, you know, because it's so, again, it's like never neglects the obvious, right? Yeah. Like, this is the obvious. The obvious thing was, like, I had a father who was just not interested in me at all, and that was to do with him.

And I had a mom who could never really give me at that time. an explanation for why that was because she wanted to never, ever, ever, ever slag him off. And I think that that's a totally good and legitimate thing. And, you know, she's obviously coming from a position where she's seen so many children being weaponised in conflicts between parents who are no longer together. So it's not that I think that she made the wrong call at all. It's just it was a call that came with some different problems. And the problem was, is I'm experiencing all this rejection

and I've got absolutely no framework for understanding it. So obviously child brain goes, well, there must be something I can do because she's telling me, no, he loves you. No, he's a, you know, a good man and he's a funny man and he's clever and he's got all these great things about him. So there must be something I can do, something I can engineer, which will bring him into contact with me. And like, I have all these memories from being a kid because like he would, it would just seem that he would turn up like a bolt from the blue. And when he would, and this would be like after like four or five years, right? So it's like we're talking about really long periods of time.

And I couldn't understand why there wasn't regular contact. And so I thought it was because the one thing I knew about him is that he really loved cricket. So I thought that, oh, it's because he's busy watching cricket. And so we had a VHS tape of like cricket matches that he'd obviously left behind in divorce so I gave it to him being like look now you can watch cricket whenever you want which means you can come see me because that was my childlike understanding and that was me trying don't give me that face don't give you that face I just punched my microphone being like don't pity me there's no pity it's pure I see it and I really get it yeah you try to I was

thinking fixing tendencies coming out from a really early age of like I can fix this I can I can make you want to be around me. Here's this gift and this guy just being so fucking selfish. Yeah, and then like when I got a bit older and I was a teenager, I thought, oh well, he just doesn't want to come to London for whatever reason. Again, not understanding like what's really going on here. So I was like, okay, well, I'll go up north to stay with him. And I did.

And he just didn't fucking talk to me the whole visit. So I ran off with an older heroin addict for a few days. because I felt rejected by my father. And so the thing is, is that that piece about not being able to be honest about what it is you really want for fear of scaring someone off, is that that was just like hammered into me by him. And it was because this really central understanding of what was really happening. wasn't there. And I think actually the thing that really changed things for me

was the most beautiful piece of advice that I've ever, ever, ever gotten from a friend, which is I'd been in this relationship where this guy was rejecting me in all sorts of ways, right? Like, you know, these sort of ways in which he was telling me through his behavior that I was not valuable to him or I was not valuable to him in the way that I would want to be valuable to someone, right? And it felt really undignified. And then that put me back in that thing of going, well, if I just manage this, I will get what I want from it. Right. So if I

go along with these like contradictory messages that you're sending me and saying, yeah, that's fine. And yeah, that's fine. Yeah, that's fine. I'll get what I want. And I didn't. He broke up with me and I felt so shit because I was like, well, I not only don't have the relationship, also don't have my dignity and sense of self-worth. And my best friend said, you know, I think the problem here is and the reason why, like, you're feeling so shit is because you're looking at the most precious gift you have to offer, which is your vulnerability and your desire for love. and you're looking at that as a source of embarrassment and shame.

And what you need to do was actually own it, go, this is a fucking gift that I have to give to people. And if someone is responding to that with anything other than, my God, I'm so lucky, they're not the one for you. And that was just this huge turnaround for me. I stopped being embarrassed about wanting love after this piece of advice. How did you bring that into your next romantic interactions? What did that look like in practice? Oh, in practice, what that meant was if someone started treating me like not wet, okay, if someone was treating me in a way where I was like, this feels like rejection, I'd be like,

bye-bye. Peaceful. But did you say up front, you know, like, I want this, I'm looking for this? Yeah, cool. 100%. 100%. Like, obviously there was still a little bit like, you know, that sort of, I call it like courtship lies.

Like, do you know what I mean? Like, there's sort of like these like little games that we play in flirtation. Like the first time me and my now husband like went home together. We'd both been sort of saying to each other, oh, I'm so celibate right now. I'm so celebrate right now. Let's go home and have sex. You know what I mean? It's like, okay.

Sure. It's that kind of, is that kind of bullshit. But afterwards, right? So like, you know, really early on, this is kind of like after like two or three dates. It's like, no, I'm serious about this. Like, I don't want to fuck about. Like, I just want to see you. And then I went to Thailand with a friend and I came back after a month.

And I was like, okay, right, time to steal myself and say what I want is a relationship, like a boyfriend, girlfriend, secure we are going out thing. And he was the one who said it. Like, we were just really direct with each other from the start. And so the, like, the negative side of it was being just attuned to like, am I being treated in the way that I want to be treated. And if I'm not, there's not a negotiation here. And it's not a sort of like avoidance to see if they come running.

It's just like, no, this isn't working for me, right? I'm not getting into a negotiation or a litigation over what happened. Like, I know in my heart this isn't right. And so I'm going to abide by that. And the positive side of it was being able to say, I want a relationship. I want a relationship with you. And there was a way in which we were both saying that, both as an expression of how we felt about the other person, was also an expression of how we felt about ourselves.

It was, I actually really value my time. Like, and I value my time so much that I don't want to play games. I do think being, the other thing you've hit on about being honest, if we're talking in a romantic context as well, I mean it goes in friendship, but let's talk romantic a bit. Being honest about what you want and sticking to it. So following that up with the action, like you said, that leaving if you are being mistreated,

although there are not the flips like this we've got to get people to learn the difference between we need to do disaster class on when you're being mugged off and when you simply encountering human fallibility yes or just like human agency human agency because people aren't avatars

and I promise you all the things that you think other people have to work on there are probably things you have to work on most of the stuff I project onto other people that they need to work on is shit that I need to work on which is why I feel confident talking about rejection because I need to work on it big time.

But with, yeah, what I found with the romantic thing when I'm thinking about it and what you were saying there about how you went forward, one of the reasons I probably feel so much more comfortable with romantic rejection than I imagine like at 25 or 23 when I was, you know, previous in in the throes of it, then I was probably, I probably spanned out a lot. But I can't remember it in the same way. What I can remember is the most. recent dating periods I had, which I found, I think I was very frustrated a lot of the time about the market, but with my personal interactions with people when I did start dating, I probably was the most sort of comfortable with the ebb and flow of those actual interactions

than I'd ever been because from the get-go, I was trying to be really honest with them. I remember saying that thing to you, like, I want to be the person that I'd want to date. And I tried to follow that through. so when I was dating someone and then I realized we're not compatible. I said that and he was like, yeah, I actually feel the same. Fine. We all moved on. There was no hard feelings there.

There was another person where I started feeling very antsy and very stressed about the communication that's going because it's quite confusing. It didn't add up to what had been agreed or what had been said. And so I said, hey, just need to like lay out what I'm actually expecting from this and see what you want from this. And he came back and confirmed everything. thing that I thought and I was like oh chill like because I was honest there was no stress and he wasn't he was actually wasn't rejecting it was the opposite but it was um I realized I didn't want

what was being offered because it didn't lie his actions couldn't align with what he said and it wasn't in a malicious way it was just like even the thing he was offering which was a more casualized relationship of some sort um he couldn't perform that but he did also he did want to have like the emotional intensity of a relationship but then would pull back and then come. And I was like, I don't actually want that because it's, um, I'm a busy lady. And this is not what we agreed upon as being the basis of our relationship or the foundation. And I'd either want a full relationship, I'd want the thing we agreed on, not this weird middle ground.

So I was like, chill, I'm going to peace out. But, you know, we're still very amicable. We're still very amicable. And then when I met my now boyfriend from the get go, I was like, By the way, I get spooked really easily. And, you know, right now at the start, I might want to kiss some other people when he was talking about, like, making exclusive. I was like, just so you know, I want to be exclusive with you, but I'm still in the headspace, so I might want to kiss a few people. He was like, that's fine.

That's okay. And there was a whole week that went by and I had the opportunity to kiss other people and I didn't want to. And I was like, actually, I don't. Because he gave me that space to work it out, but because I was honest from the get-go, there was no sort of like duplicity. I told him what I was doing or what was going on in my head. And I was, every time I would have normally pulled back, not said anything and hoped he filled in the gaps. I said, oh, I'm feeling like this. I'm doing this.

Hopefully not in a way that was just like, these are all my emotions and you have to carry them. But just like useful communication. So we understood where I was coming from when a certain thing was going on. I was like, just so you know this. And I think it's worked. I think it's worked. I think what it is is that people get into the space of trying to, to project an idealised version of themselves that they think will be appealing to the other

person because they're scared of rejection. And so actually, when you stop doing that and you're honest about where your heads at, you're honest about the things that you want, and you're, you're no longer trying to calibrate your self-image for the other person or what you think it is that they might be attracted to. You're treating yourself well. You're treating yourself well and rejection becomes a lot less scary. And I think that's the thing. And I don't, you know, we joke about this being a heteronormative podcast, but like,

I do think that heterosexual women have had our heads scrambled by the way in which we're socialized to think about how human relationships work. So the first thing is that the pinnacle of your life is to be chosen. And I still think that that's just as powerful as it ever was, except it's a lot less sort of socially acceptable because we're all meant to be enlightened feminists now. So you still feel that way, but you can't be honest about how you feel.

So like it's no less powerful as a form of socialisation, except now there's a layer of sort of secrecy and shame about even feeling that. The second thing is that we still, expect men to be the people who initiate. So then it means that you put yourself in the scenario where you're almost trying to arrange the conditions within the terrarium to make them act a certain way. I was at an event recently and there was a guy there who was attractive

and several women I spoke to were talking about how attractive he was and I was like, oh why do you talk to him? And they were like, I don't want to join the queue. and I've talked about the key before the queue is the imagined queue of women that exist in front of you when there is a man that you find attractive and all those women are in some way better, smarter, hotter than you

and it's basically rejection embodied in the form of this nightmare vision of the queue and this idea of the humiliation of joining the queue and it's there's things that the way we've framed rejection as well in this sort of like social panopticum era is that if you are rejected, I think it's imagined as some sort of badge or do you remember that Black Mirror episode where everyone's rated and you can see their ratings? It's like it takes

a star for your rating and everyone can smell it and sense it and everyone around there knows what's happened to you and you wear that the next time. Whereas we only carry rejection so heavily when we, not to be like, try it, but we carry rejection so heavily and wear it for other people to see when we make it into that thing. You turn it into that. Like, I carry what I perceive as social rejection really heavily. And that A makes me all likely to be socially rejected because I'm on edge and anxious about it. But also, it makes me more alive to what I perceive as more social rejection. If I'm not worrying about that, like romantic rejection, when I stopped worrying about them the same way, it just breezed past me. I cannot remember

all the men who might have replied to me on hinge or went on one date with me and didn't get back like it actually has fallen out of my head that's not knowledge I possess anymore. There is literally only one guy that I remember. No, two guys, two guys that I remember where I was like, oh wow, rejected, rude. But even those are not,

it's not stuck with me, whereas friendship rejection sticks with me, it clings to me like a bad smell. And I go over and over. over what that says about me, like, I'm a bad person, people can tell I'm a bad person. When I'm interacting my friends, now I'm like, they can tell I'm a bad person, they can feel that I'm a bad friend, they know that I'm this, that and the other. And they're like, there's no reassurance those people can give me. It's going to have to come from within. Well, is that

thing of like, was it, that thingy Kirk? Charlie? Jamima. I think you're thinking about yourself too much. Yeah, I think you're thinking about yourself too much. Charlie Kirk famously said that. Yeah. It's like, Thingy Kirk. You know, like it does come from like,

like I do you think that's like narcissism and self-loathing are two sides of the same coin and it's all about the sort of focus and attention being like reflected back onto the self. And I think that, you know, I think that I think sometimes people's need for reassurance is unreasonable. Yeah. And I've encountered people with unreasonable.

with unreasonable needs for reassurance. I'm sure that at times I've also had unreasonable needs for reassurance. And like they make that demand of you so frequently and in so many ways or it's sort of like so powerful in them that it then creates the exact situation that they're afraid of, which is people avoiding them a bit or like people being like not connecting with them in the way that they want to. And so I think that that's something. which is like an unfortunate fact is that there is a line to tread

where you're not getting so fully into like self-loathing with it, but you just have to think, what would I be attracted to hanging out with? Not because it activates self-loathing, but it just gives you some like guidance for parameters of like what are reasonable and unreasonable expectations of people, which again, I think helps you take rejection better. I do want to, before we move on, I do want to ask you a question, which is how do you reject well?

Because I think that one of the things that happens is people get very confused about how detailed and maybe how honest to be in their explanation for why they're rejecting someone. Well, maybe we'll differ, but I'm usually, if it's romantic, friends different. I don't think, I don't, I don't, I think that's a different thing. But romantically, I usually just go, hey, it was really nice hanging out. I've realised I'm not prioritising, you know, romantic relationships at this time. And I don't want to mess you around. So, you know, I don't think, the last rejection I sent was probably something like, it depends how long you've been seeing them as well.

If it's like one date, right, all two dates, one day, right? One day and no one text, fine. If it's two dates, they've texted be like, hey, I had a really good time. But I actually realized, you know, I'm not really in the headspace to, you know, continue with this right now. I think that's fine. And I don't want to mess you around. What if it's not you and it is them? Would you say so?

It depends how egregious it's been. So, like, I'm not interested in them because they are racist to be like, I was quite uncomfortable with things. You said, fine. But if it's just like, there you found them boring. No, just give them. I'm not in the headspace right now. and because someone else will not find them boring. It depends on the trait that's being displayed here.

If it's something, if it's also like a question of, oh, they refuse to pay for your meal, again, I wouldn't be like, that's them. You're so rude. I couldn't believe it. Because I think that's a fantasy colliding with a reality. You just aren't aligned. You're not compatible.

You don't have the same values. I think that's the thing is that you need to be attuned to when you're lashing out. Yeah. Like, are you actually explain? something or are you lushing out? Are you lashing out? I think most of the time it's a, you know, really nice to meet you, wasn't for me for makeup. Make up a reason. I do believe in making up a little bit of reason. Like, I'm just really busy and it doesn't make sense. And the main thing is, I don't want to mess you around. Yeah, I don't think that you can say like actually,

like, you know, the sex was really bad. Yeah. Or like you've got a, you got a weird toe thing going on. Yeah. Like the minute I don't want to mess you around is a fucking winner. Always end with that. Because then they're like, you know what, fair enough. She doesn't want to mess me around. She doesn't want to mess me around. And I think the thing is, is that I think it's difficult, right? Because guilt comes into it. And I've seen the guilt get activated in people.

Someone said some version of, I don't want to mess you around. And then the other person comes back with, well, you did mess me around. And then you get pulled into the deposition. And then you've got to be like, don't reply. Unless it's some serious thing, don't reply on that one. you've said what you need to say, leave it there. If it's someone that you've been dating a while, I think you need to have either a phone or in-person conversation,

depending on how long you've been dating. I think you do owe it then. But it also depends on the relationship, like I had a conversation with someone. I've been dating like two months, very casually. And that was really nice. It was just like, hey, look, I don't think you're in a place to be able to give clarity on this.

And I, you know, got all this going on. I think it's better if we don't date anymore, but like those genuinely no-half feelings. And that was a really nice, amicable thing. That was left really nice. We had a couple jokes because it was me saying, this is how I feel, this is what I'm doing. It wasn't me saying like, this is how I feel.

Prove to me the otherwise and then I'll change my mind. It's like, I've made a decision. It's based on this. Like you can tell me wrong or right, but I've made my decision. You also have to come with a decision made. don't try and get people to talk you in and out of something. Don't try and faux reject someone so that they come and beg for you as well. That doesn't ever work.

I'd say if it is one date, text is fine. Three phone call. No, three is two. I would not phone call after three, not in this day and age. Ash, you've been married or locked up for seven years. I promise you three days. Maybe it's just because my view of technology is old fashion. It's voice note now.

It's a voice note now. It's voice note. It comes in two pieces and one's on the year and ones of them. and you go, voice note, voice note. I'm sorry, darling. And I think five voice note. But again, it's not hard and fast. It depends on the connection you shared.

Well, yeah. And then I think if it's a period of like months or onwards, you actually owe it to meet up with someone in a neutral location. And you say what it is you need to say before any food has been ordered. Yes, don't order food on your fucking breakup date. Guys, unless it's take to go. I've had food. I was waiting for the food to come

when someone initiated the conversation and then the chicken came and I was like what the fuck am I supposed to do with this now? Yeah, like that's just sad because then they're sad and they can't eat because they're sad and they've just got to look at the chicken they've wasted money on and someone's to leave.

I can't remember if he paid for the chicken or not. I was just like, that's chicken I can't eat. But I'm also not going to ask for it in a doggie bag that would be even more untignified. I do also understand And I've done breakups over phone of like multi-year relationships over a phone when we've been in different places. And sometimes I do get that.

I mean, again, lots of this, you will have specific circumstances. If they are somebody that you find yourself again and again in person when you have tried to break up, not being able to break up, I do think having that physical remove is good for you both. If you're both like we're miserable. but when we're in person we always end up agreeing to have another go

get on the phone like sometimes you've got to make that break some dynamics can push so many buttons in each of you it's impossible to get out of them unless you have that physical space for each other It's like methadone

Don't agree to meet up for a closure conversation Don't do that Don't do that Yeah I don't Those ones as well I don't think I had a closure conversation

my ex but I know lots of people who do close your conversations and I don't have a prescription on that. I think I have my feelings and opinions, but I don't have a prescription. I did one after like a years long relationship and that was good, right? That was important. And I think that he showed like a tremendous amount of understanding about what had happened

and why. And that's because I just think he's, you know, it was and is a great person. And so that was an important thing. But for the most part, in particular when the rejection is sort of like, like a bit one-sided is that it tends to be the person who has been rejected going, well, I need this conversation for like closure or like, you know, all this is trying to be friends. No, no, that is a tactic and you need to say no. Even though you feel that you don't have the right to say no because you did the rejecting, you should say no. So neutral location.

Do it before the food is ordered and actually be kind of limited in your explanations. Because I think the other person will always want more explanation. Like you could actually be completely candid about every single aspect of your thinking and they'll still want more explanation because that's just what it's like. That's a response to people feeling pain. And it's not actually good for someone to get all the explanation that they're asking for. Yeah, with friends it's completely different. But I don't know.

We don't have time to get into that. So let's do another day. Should we do someone's problem? Let's see someone's problem. So this is, I'm in big trouble. If you're in big trouble, email us at If I Speak at Navaramedia.com. That's If I Speak at Navariamedia.com. Do you want to read it out?

Yeah, I do. Actually, wait. We've got to promote two things. One is, I am putting on an event on the 5th of August. It's with the amazing author, Simon Brown, who's just done a book all about the black middle class and what the hell is going on with class and racial identity in Britain.

He's done the biggest study of its kind into the black British middle class and he's asking, you know, these people are cultural elites. They don't feel like it. One of the interesting things he pulled out was no one would admit to being middle class. So he's looking at what impact

the black middle class has on the perception of being black in Britain also what it does and what it suppresses for those many people who are black but they're not middle class and they're actually working class so it's the rise of an elite that exists it doesn't exist

and insists it doesn't exist and that is on the 5th of August at the Bernie Grant Arts Centre in Tottenham tickets from £7 for unwaged and I will not be interviewing Simeon it will be Kemmy Amori who's interviewing him

so I think it'll be a really interesting conversation come along it's one of the last events I'm doing before I leave London I'm also doing a club night on the 30th August carnival afters at Vespers. That would be really fun.

We're just going to be the stupidest music. You better fucking come to that one, Ash. Actually, I'm not going to hold you that. That's the weekend of my best friend's wedding. Fine, fine, fine. And then Ash, you have an event, which you've been very quiet about, but everyone who listens to this podcast

would definitely want to come to it. On the 20th of September at South Bank, Ash is doing the South Bank Centre lecture on the future of relationships. So I can't believe you haven't mentioned this event. I got emailed about this event because I think I'm introducing you.

You didn't tell me about this. This is another thing Ash does. I will get a PR or like a publicist or whatever like someone who's doing her tour. Email me and be like, oh yeah, is everything set for you doing interviewing Ash? I'm like, I work with this woman every other week. We are in group chats together

and she said nothing to me about wanting me to do this thing. Why are you so quiet and coy about this? Anyway, South Bank Center, it's going to be so good. So, Ash, tell us what it is. Tell us what it is. It's about the future of relationships, but surprise, surprise, that's a way of talking about capitalism. And it's a way of looking at, all right, so basically the thing that I want to talk about is beginning with dating apps and thinking about how this like very disembodied,

disembedded way of trying to form connections has turned us into people. who are less trusting, more likely to treat one another badly, and it's contributed to an overall sense of precarity and anxiety. It, for me, comes to a sort of crisis of trust. And one of the things that I think, you know, gamified apps, but also various Silicon Valley technologies have done, is that they don't value trust. I think they actually think that trust is a bit of a mug's game.

and so I've contributed to a society which either is less trusting because you've got this horrible UI, like think about what you do when you're in a dating app, you're constantly swiping past people's faces, right? So it's rejection on steroids and you know you're being treated in the same way and then you both meet sort of devoid

of having anything in common, devoid of a container that holds you together. That container could be a shared friendship group, could be a workplace, could be, you know, you met the same club night whatever, but devoid of any container, and therefore you have a prisoner's dilemma, right? There is no trust that exists between you. So it's reject lest ye yourself be rejected. It's bad basis for relationships because my theory is you need a container. Within that container, there are reciprocal

social obligations because you understand that those obligations exist. Trust can be created. Dating apps completely eliminate that. But it's a broad. a problem. I'm really interested in one of the ways in which blockchain has been used to try and create contracts in which you do not need trust because the mechanism only kicks in when certain things have been completed and then the money is released. So it doesn't require any trust. There was a case where a bunch of people tried to buy, I think it was like the constitution or something, which wasn't even for sale. You're giving away too much, Ash. You're giving way too much about the lecture.

Okay, right, right. I was like, you want to tell the tiniest bit and then they come to the, anyway, come to the lecture. Like, I haven't written it yet. Like, this is just all the sort of shit that I'm thinking about. Come to the lecture. It's on Sunday the 20th of September at 6.30 p.m. South Bank Center. I'm pretty sure I'm introducing you for this lecture because my picture is on your thing.

Well, I didn't know that. So that's all so. It was so random. I love it. I love it. I'm really happy that you're coming. I'm really happy to be doing it. A set of ideas that have been with me for like quite a while.

This is the first time that they're all being pulled together in one place. And I wouldn't have known about it unless I got asked to introduce to. Whereas this is like an event I want to go to. I hate promoting myself so much. It makes me feel like a knob. Yes, that's fine. But if you tell me, then at least I can promote it and get Annie's like this as well. She'll be like, you know, she'll come in and she'll be like, oh, I've, I've just done this event with Chanty.

And I'm like, did you not think that maybe I'd like. I'd like to see Shanty I'm just interviewing you I just never think people want to come to this stuff She's like that too And I'm like It's not even just for you

Like the people interview you People that I love Like please let me sit I love your book I love this interviewer I would love to sit And listen to you talk to each other And she just never mentions it

I'm like please God I want to go to these events And I'm not going to promote them This is another thing This is why you got promote them Because you think the algorithm is going to do its job It doesn't

It does not do his job I should I only just got promoted this event on Instagram and it's like two months after I knew it existed the algorithm is not sent that's why I'm now saying I'm doing these things I'm we're doing this on the 5th of August this talk of Bernie Grant aren't said to because people are not seeing it on their feeds you think the digital is going to show it to them it doesn't it doesn't it's not I just don't think about it

well I'm thinking about it and it's going to be great all right anyway so let's do a problem read the problem read the problem I'm going to read the problem now so this is I'm in big trouble Hi Ash and Moyer Long time listener First time emailer Any and all advice about my dilemma would be appreciated

I 25F and my boyfriend 26M have recently moved together to a warm bed in East London We've been together for seven and a half years This is our first time living out parents or housemates My partner's younger sibling recently graduated and has a lot more free time

lately to come and visit the first time they came, they had a great time catching up and we all got on well. However, our flat is tiny. There's one bedroom, a bathroom and then a living area, which is everything else. When my sibling-in-law comes to stay, they take up the sofa, which means they take up the entire living space. And neither they, I'm theming them, but they put the pronouns. I'm just trying to hide some identities. Neither he, it's a he.

Neither he nor my boyfriend. are very tidy. And I regularly have to mention the mess they create. And the first weekend, I didn't need to bring any of this up, even though it bothered me as I wanted them to have a good time. Another piece of context is that I'm extremely introverted and socially anxious. I find spending time with people I don't know well to be exhausting. And I need a lone time, especially around after office days.

And in the last month or so, my boyfriend kept mentioning that his brother would be visiting again. I assumed he meant for another long weekend. However, I found it would actually be for two weeks. I immediately found this prospect quite stressful. I asked him to have a word with his brother about the mess and maybe asking to break up the visit by staying with friends for a couple of night. By night five of the visit, the messiness of the flat got to me

and I created a group chat to vent at both of them. My partner's brother didn't say anything to me, but he called my boyfriend and said he felt extremely disrespected and we'll be finding somewhere else to say. I apologise because my partner asked me to. We meant to be going on holiday with his entire family soon and he wanted to smooth things over. However, my boyfriend's brother

has not accepted my apology, has just told me he's disappointed in me. The last thing I want is to come between them, but it's hard for me to understand how this can go ahead moving forward. I cannot cope with him staying out flat this regularly for this long. I don't want to stop seeing each other, but I also can't think of a comparison

where my partner would have to put up with someone. like this because I don't have any siblings. Please help. Hmm. I actually think this is a simple one. Please, because you have both siblings. I don't know if your husband has siblings. Yep. But yeah. So you are used to integrating with families. It's actually not, I think don't look at this as a family issue. It's a practical issue. So I've actually been in this situation, not because of

my husband's brother, but because my husband's a, a sort of generous convivial man and he'll do this thing sometimes who will go, oh yeah, I've just invited some people over for dinner and I'm like, okay, how many, he'll be like 20 and I'm like, what do you mean you've invited 20 people over? Like, that's actually quite a big deal and you've like really underestimated

how much mess this creates or like, you know, invite people to say and sometimes there's people have been very, very messy. And at first, that filled me with stress and resentment because I thought it was up to me to manage this person and to go, do I have an encounter with them or not about the mess. And we found a different way of dealing with it.

The rule in the house is you are responsible for your guests, right? You are responsible for the people that you invite. So you've got to make the space nice for them. You've got to be responsible for making sure that they've got like a key. If they're staying for a long period of time, you know, that they're, they also have to like take on a house job. you know like we've had people stay with us for months and so it's like okay if you're staying for months you do you do got to do some hoovering and shit um and it's up to the person who's invited

the person to stay to communicate all that um i've also said particularly to my partner this one we used to live alone is that i'm not going to be the nag here like i will nag you to nag the person i'm not nagging then and so if you want me off your back that means that you've got to be either responsible for tidying up after this person or telling them to do it because that's how it's going to work. And it means that you're not going to be in this position of creating group chats. I think that that was a tactically poor move. I completely see how it came from your frustration, but tactically it was a poor move. It's up to your partner to be on his brother's ass about it. I totally agree. I have literally nothing to add except when you explain to your partner

say this is not a say what Ashley said, which is this is not about it being your brother. This is about it being a guest in our house and we are responsible for our own guests. And I'm very sorry that I created that group chat. But from now on, this is how we're going to run it. And do you agree? Saying, do you agree gives him the illusion of a feed-in to this decision, which is great. And then you've got the buy-in.

And he's like, yeah, I have this point. And you're like, great, great, let's discuss this. But at the end of the conversation, the system will be implemented. Yeah. And then you go forward. I think just like, say, give a big apology to the brother. That's all you need to do. and then from then on the nagging

go straight to the partner. And I mean, another practical thing you can do is you can set up a group chat at the start of the visit. So we've got a group chat that we add people to when they're staying with us for like, you know,

two or more weeks. And it's called Lottel de Musa, the Hotel of Musa. And we add someone to the group chat. And so it's so we can do the like, who's in, who wants dinner, da-da-da-da-da. But it's also been a way

for when people are staying. with us for a long time is at the start before they even arrive, you do a sort of list of practical stuff. So it's like, this is the Wi-Fi code, is like, you know, Max who lives around the corner who's got a spare key in case you get locked out, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, oh, also, you know, we do a big house clean once a week, pick a room, do the room. So we've put that all like up top in the group chat, but the group chat's purpose is not for nagging. The group's chats like purported purposes like oh i'm going to be at the pub who wants to come oh i'm making dinner tonight who's in um oh i'll run out of milk can you get some milk but it allows you to set

the expectations right at the top hmm i haven't literally nothing else to add that's a great um great wow great what a tidy nice little neat problem today fab all right special ones bye bye