If I Speak - 127: Help! I think my friend is in love with me?!

Episode Date: September 8, 2026

Moya is worried about status – and so are increasing numbers of men in therapy, according to a recent report. So what does status look like in this economy? How are men adapting to not being guaranteed breadwinners? Can you be both downwardly mobile and satisfied with your life? Plus: what to do when you suspect your friend is in love with you. Read the article on men in therapy: https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2026/aug/19/men-therapy-achievement-grief Read John Burn-Murdoch on women breadwinners: https://www.ft.com/content/4b7b8d3f-5625-4dba-ad90-66192c101956?syn-25a6b1a6=1 Get tickets for Ash at the Southbank Centre on 26 September: https://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whats-on/ash-sarkar-the-future-of-relationships Send us your dilemmas: [e-mail] Music by Matt Huxley.

Moya, where are you? I can't say. You can't say. I can't say I'm just, I'm in a new, I'm in a new location. Going a new location. Is there any emotional attachment to the location? Who can know? Do you know who does know?

Some special ones who came to my club night. Ah, how was the club night? It was really good, it was really good. It's the last one that I'm going to do. So I've been doing a club night for four years now. and I said last year I was going to retire it and then I brought it back for one more go but I haven't got it in me anymore

and so I'm going to bring it back just on my birthdays and if there's like a special occasion. Yeah, you know, but I think heated was really good but it's too stressful. Punter behaviour has changed. They don't all buy in advance anymore. It's very like half of them will buy and then on the night you have to play it by ear.

And usually we're lucky, but I need to cover my overheads. So, yeah. It was a nice farewell. But anyway, some special ones. We got quite a lot of special ones coming. And it was really cute. They'd all come up and they'd go, they'd look really furtive. And they'd go, I'm a special one.

Yeah. And my boyfriend was working the door for me because I'd forgotten to get a door person. And so he was able to witness special ones when they thought they weren't being surveilled. You're always being watched special ones. His words, you guys have made a cult.

I like the cult. I love being part of this cult. What I thought when I came out of heated, apart from just like how lovely it is that people will come up and have this great conversation with you based on the fact that you chat shit you know, once a week,

is Ash, you really played a blinder with that special one thing. You really played a blinder. What an incredible weight to mark themselves how everyone loves saying it I love saying it

when someone goes I'm a special one everyone fucking loves it and it is like identify yourself it just works and I also think it because it begins

with a sibilant and S it invites whispering and everyone does whisper it that's something I've noticed everyone says I'm a special one I'm a special one well

I have questions for you well I guess I'm talking some more then you are talking some more some more. So we've had a little summer break. It was very, very nice.

Yes. But now it's down to business. Now it's down to 73 questions, minus 70. And the first of these questions is this. What is your favorite needle drop in cinema? Oh, God. The thing is, you'll have a really good answer to this. And I don't know if I have one.

My mind's gone totally blank. It was a great needle drop in cinema. I know what, I know like a needle drop in a song. Is this still a needle drop? When it's just a drop? That's just a drop. The worst thing is the only thing that's coming to mind is dirty work. But that's because of recency bias.

That's just recency bias. It is so good. That's literally just recency bias. I don't know if I can think of one right now. That's a sad thing. Tell me yours. I was thinking about it because I was thinking about Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy, which I love as a film.

I love that it's sort of like, I feel that every room in that film smells like damp and cigarette smoke and salt and vinegar crisps. Do you know what I mean? It captures it so well. And at the end, during like the denouement, it's Julio Iglazzi is singing Lamere and there's like a particular live version. And then like, you know, all these, all these mad things happen. And it's sort of like a tragedy of male. trauma but also the decline of British Empire, etc., etc.

And I was like, I love that. Great needle drop. I was listening to Who Weekly, my favourite podcast. Your favourite podcast is a favorite podcast. And they were talking about film scores and how film scores are now designed to be so bespoke to the film. They're not things that you can go back and listen to. And they said like, it works. He used the example of Bobby Finger of Conclave, where he was saying that film score is exquisite in

the moment. It works so well for the score. but you can't go back and listen to it. So I think I like schools more than I think about Neededrops. For example, Pride and Prejudice, 2005. That is a classical score that I adore. I think it's really wonderful. There's other soundtracks that I've loved.

Obviously, 10 things are here about you. Because you had like a soundtrack and you'd have a score in the two different things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But the score, like the Odyssey score, they were talking about that. And I had no idea what I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't. I wouldn't be able to tell you what that sounds like, what the theme for the Odyssey sounds like. For me, it's like the mystical flu. Mystical flute is what I associate with the odyssey and also the twang.

Yeah, the bowstring twine. I couldn't sing that to you, whereas I can absolutely do, you know, Pirates the Caribbean. Yeah. What's the one that's, Dun, Dun, do you do, Dun, Da, Dun, Dun, Dun, Dun. That's Game of Thrones. See, there's some scores that live in my head. But as far as needle drops go, I'm quite lacking on that fun. Shrek kept coming into my head because that's all I could remember.

All right, so the next two questions, the next two questions, right? are related. So one is your magic and one is your tragic. What was your magic of the summer? My magic of the summer. Finding my next path. Finding where I'm going next. My magic was things unfolded for me and became clear.

And I now have a lovely path forward for the next, at least four months, maybe further. But I suddenly got a lot of clarity. For someone with ADHD being old, to plan for four months is a big fucking deal. I don't think I have ADHD. I don't care what the doctor says. I have, I generally think I have traits.

And I think my traits have been exasper by my phone addiction, but I'm too good at managing shit to have ADHD, I swear. Like, for example, my boyfriend has put me in charge of, sorry, this sounds really old school, he might be in order to us, he's put me in charge of admin. He's really good at other stuff, but he's put me in charge of admin

because he can't do admin for shit, and he's got proper hardcore ADHD. Like, it's impossible for him sit down. Me, I can book that driving test. I can fucking go and do this task. Like, if it's on the list, I'll do it. He'll be like, I can't work this. I just, it's not in, it's not, it's not, see, I don't really like, I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm great at admin.

I'm, I'm, um, so I don't, I don't know, I don't know. I think, I do think the phone addiction plays part, but my therapist also says actually it's about, um, she says it's something to do attachment ADHD. Maybe that sounds like a big theory coming down the track. I can hear the too too too. Okay. And what was your tragic of the summer? My tragic was I didn't go out very much. Because I was so busy,

because I was so busy working, tying up loose ends, prepping for the next phase, I didn't go on holiday much. I went on one holiday. And because of the heat waves, I didn't go out much. Like, I went out, but I'd go on the evenings. So I didn't sunbathe, which is why I'm now the colour of milk. usually I should be three shades dark when I went to Marseille

great I got my darkest concealer out we were on the right track and then I came back and because it was just punishing heat in London I didn't want to go and lie in the dust in the day I want to spend time indoors so even though I was like outside

I wasn't outside in the exterior you were constantly looking for shade making mental notes of like the air conditioning availability around wherever you are. Exactly. Like when I went into the office, for example, there was, there's one desk you just couldn't work at

because the sun would come in and it's so hot, even though there was aircon, so hot that your keyboard would almost melt. Like, you couldn't, I couldn't touch my mouse. And I think the level of climate emergency that struck London this summer was so stark and so in ignorable. It was really like, this is not a fun thing to lie.

This is not something I want to say. sky off and lie in my bikini in the park in. This is something I want to hide from. It's scary. It's really scary and it should be scary. We've been told it was going to be scary for a long time and everyone's like, I'm sure it'd be great. Tropical London. Well, it turns out Scotland's going to be the tropical one. Sorry. Sorry. Turns out everything above Birmingham is going to be the nice, like, lush tropical landscape and down there you're going to get desert. It's Arizona, maybe. So I think my tragic was the climate emergency coming to roost. Oh, that's pretty tragic. Yeah, that's pretty bad.

tragic. Did you have tragic and magic? Okay, I would say my, my magic, it's probably lots of magic. I just have been having a really good time with my friends and there was a particular day where me, my partner and one of our really good friends went to, like upstream at the River Thames. You went to Pangborn? You talked about this.

We went to Pangborn. So we started it growing and streetly and then we walked down the Thames path, and we stopped off for swims, and then we did a big swim at Pangboard Meadows, and that was just a really beautiful day. And I think it's, the friend who was there is someone who I do see quite often. It's not that I don't see them very often,

but I see them very often within a very political context. And so that comes to dominate what we're talking about, and it's very difficult sometimes to draw a distinction between work and socialising, particularly when I'm with him. And so whenever you take him out of that context, you get, wow, do you get bang for buck with him? Like, it's really, really wonderful. So I think that was great.

I really enjoyed that. Tragic would be, yeah, I did actually feel a lot of climate dread. And it felt like, you know, if we're thinking about cinema scores, and, you know, in 1917, you've got that horrible high string. Didn't watch it, but it was like, ah, ha, ha, ha. No, it's sort of like, just like, they love that in World War movies.

Yeah. Another high string. Looming dread. It was a high string. That's kind of what the climate crisis felt like. I think maybe the tragic,

tragic was like a couple of weeks ago had a very intense, very stressful work week. Some special ones to be able to guess what it was. Which just demanded

like a lot of focus and like absorbing an awful lot of other people's emotions. Yeah. And it was particularly difficult because my partner was away during that time. Not the rock. When the rock's gone.

Yeah. And so I was just like, oh, I don't have a space for decompression. What I'm in is the cycle of like wake up, do all the things, do all the things, focus, focus, focus, try to sleep, wake up, do the same again. And I very much missed that space to decompress. So that was my point. Yeah, you get thrust into the cycle of the crisis. Yeah. rather than, and that's actually the worst thing when it's crisis.

You actually have to be pulled out completely. I think that's one thing that like this was the magic within the tragic is that I felt that I was more able to do that than I ever have before. And that just comes with like 11 years of experience and being like, I can see the wood and the trees. I think perspective in those situations is really important. I've never been more glad that I was starting. like weaning off online at that particular juncture,

I was like, it's really good I don't have a pipeline to the Guardian's opinion page at this stage. You know, like it's good I don't have somewhere that's expecting me to feed in regularly on whatever's in the news right now. I think we should definitely talk about the like weaning off of phone addiction.

Oh, we'll do that when I've done it properly. Yeah, yeah. We're 13th step podcasting. but we should have a talk about it because I think that like I'm really interested in how social media can be good for writing in some ways right like I actually think that Twitter made me a much better writer because it forced brevity onto me and that was actually quite good training especially coming out from uni but then social media can be really bad for writing and really bad for thinking and I kind of felt that around this time of like crisis and blowback that I wrote a piece over the weekend that I was very proud of and part of why I think I was able to write it and access what I was thinking and feelings because I very deliberately just didn't look at social media.

Yeah. I was just like, I'm not doing it. Like I can hear that there's, you know, sort of like pounding coming in from the outside. And, you know, okay, well, here's one thing, right? Before we move on, here's one thing I'm going to say. people who say, why haven't you spoken about this on social media?

You need to get a life. Like you need to get a life and you need to get a sense of perspective because it's, I think that commenting on social media is actually sometimes a demonstration of like a lack of serious thinking, a lack of deep feeling about something, right?

And what you want is, a certain performativity, right? Like, why aren't you being performative in the way that I expect you to? Okay, one, because I'm not contractually bound to post on social media, right? That is not an obligation that anyone has. But two, to not see that there is value

and stepping back from it and that actually you can do better thinking is like, you know, it was definitely something I saw on Instagram and I was just like, this is such a fucked up set of values, like, so, so fucked up. And when I was like, but I've written something longer

and people are like, but no one's got time to read that. And I was like, your fault, not mine. I have two things to say about this. One is I totally agree with you. At the same time, I understand the demanding because that is just social media. Social media is just demand. Whatever you do, there will be a demand for the opposite.

That is the whole point. It's something that, or at least the circles that we exist in on social media. media that circle. I've seen a lot of people, like recently, there was Taylor Lorenz, you know, I saw someone writing about it. And I scroll past it because I was like,

I don't you see this. Every time I see something, I'm like, I need to log off. I'm like, right, I need to get off. Like, it happens quicker and quicker. It's really good. But I saw Taylor Lorenz slagging off the online left and someone had written a big post about why she doesn't, shagg off, slag off the online left.

And I just thought, that's not, none of this matters. None of that fucking matters. The people online demanding X, Y, Z, they are representative of something. They're not representative of the entire left. And that's taking me so long to really internalize. And also that whatever you do,

there will be someone asking for the opposite. And the problem is, I think for people like us particularly, the voice that asks for you to do the opposite thing or demands you to do the one thing you haven't done or fill in the gap that you might have deliberately left, they're the voice that sounds the loudest because we are very sensitive to not filling a particular role

or not doing a certain thing or like missing something. But you have to just be like, actually that doesn't fucking matter. Here's what I've said. You have it. I don't care about the reaction now. I mean, we should move on. Yeah. I am going to say this.

Is that the Catholic Church actually has some really good guidance on social media use, which is, you know, every time you see something which you think is making you worse. It's stimulating your worse emotions. it's making you ungenerous or like is merely you know and this is obviously very Vatican not conducive to spiritual development mute block or log off immediately log off I think log off is a thing to do I mean I've done a lot of muting blocking but then I'm like why am I doing this the point is I cannot make this world one where I feel like I'm immune to everything that's coming in I need to move myself that's the answer anyway we

should we should move on but yes right you've got an intrusive thought I do I I do. I've been having more thoughts recently or rather I have a partner who has thoughts for me. And then I just, I harvest them from him. And I harvest them from him. But I also am thinking more, which is nice. I'm starting my thought journey. I'm actually thought maxing right now. I never want to hear the word maxing ever again. No. It's actually going to be funny because if I do this for four months and I become really smart, it's going to be like, you know that shit film Lucy? where the pills pop in her stomach

and it's Scarlete Hanson and it's like limitless and she gets all the knowledge in the world and then she at the end turns into USB stick. It's so good. She can fly at some points. Anyway, we're getting to it.

The point is for four months I'll be like Lucy and then immediately once I have to go back to work I'll just become devolved again. Right. My intrusive thought this is about status and I think it actually probably links to what we were talking about earlier.

Social media will come into this quite a bit. So this is based on a discussion that my boyfriend and I were having, which started because I sent him an article about men in therapy. It was written in The Guardian. And it was basically a therapist talking about how they see a lot of men who have this, have done everything right in life. So they've done marriage, they've done kids, they've got a job. I'm sure some of them are gay, for those of you who are listening and being like, this is very heterosexual. It's heteronormative, but I'm sure. there was some gay men in this. Anyway, they've done everything they were meant to do, right?

They've achieved and they've provided. But they've got this really deep grief and anger because they've done all this stuff and they've found that like peace is not there. They haven't found meaning and they don't find life easy. And they were telling this therapist, you know, I thought if I did all this, I thought, you know, if I did everything that was expected, I thought it would bring me meaning and satisfaction and it hasn't. And they have to then work through this. And the article was basically like, you know, economic instability makes this worse. So I sent this to my boyfriend who first of all went, is this me? And I said, no, actually, I think it pertains to me a lot more than it does to you. I think I have a lot more comment. Look into my eyes.

I am the man now. Yeah, like, I am the man. And I was like, no, no way. This is, this is way immoral me than you. But he was, he pointed out this really important piece of context that it was missing and he was like, actually what I think these men are experiencing is a loss of status. And I was like, oh, go on big man. He said things that would have previously granted status, the stuff they did, like having a family, leading the family household, holding down a job. holding down a job you know that doesn't get a lot of money

it doesn't carry the same status as it did in the past especially now that women can also achieve and produce and there's a few avenues I think to gain status obviously social status is one and money can get you a bit of power

on status and that definitely has been equated to that nowadays but he was like look at Elon Musk Elon Musk has all the money in the world but he doesn't have the status he wants because he wants to be loved and he wants to be funny and he's an awkward loser.

And you will never get this. So he's really unhappy because he doesn't have status but he has a lot of money. And then a few days after we had this discussion, FT's John Byrne Murdoch dropped this analysis which supported his take. I love John Bueh Murdoch.

I love John Buehmerd. Dropping, he is. He's always dropping heat is because data is really some of the best journalists and you can do. You get some days together, do some analysis.

Nom, lom, I'm going to eat that up. And this piece was titled, feminism didn't kill the male breadwinner model, the economy did. And it was talking particularly about the non-college educated men. And so this is just a sample

of what John Byrne Murdox wrote in this article. So he said, some wonder why young non-collar college men, which is a great way of being like men who don't have a BA, you know, non-college men, are drawn to the manosphere, despite there being many,

positive male role models elsewhere. The problem is that these role models are overwhelmingly on a different track. Well-educated men in white-collar jobs who are never going to struggle to achieve respect, underline that, or a family. This simply is not the reality facing most non-college educated men. They cannot, for the most part, get jobs that provide the status their father or grandfather had. They know it, and so do their would-be partners. And he obviously there is linking status to job, but also it's something more than that. It's like the job, the particular type of job brings that status. It brings also a romantic partner.

So he's talking about, you know, manus fin in cells. And he's saying that romantic partnership is coming from these people being able to, like, achieve a certain level of status. And so today I always discuss in general what status means to us now. So not just men, but I'm sure we'll cover that. But I was wondering, in a splintered world that has to, like, very polarised, places like online and offline. What is status? Is there a same, is there like a monoculture of status that we recognize across these spheres? How do different groups get status? And how could

understanding status change how we tackle things like the manosphere? And also, my boyfriend said that every society needs a little bit of hierarchy, even if we're in communism. So I thought I throw that in, see what you think. I'm not anti-hierarchy. You know this about me. Yeah, Yeah, you know this about me. I actually think that hierarchy is kind of important for people to feel like they have a bit of purpose, but we could discuss that. First, I want to start by saying or asking, Ash, what do you think status means and how do you get your status? Oh, okay. I actually, I'll come back to that.

Okay. Like, put a pin in it. But first, you've got a choice, right? This is very much to choose your own adventure. Do you want me to start with Henry David Thoreau? or do you want me to start with Homer Simpson? Let's go easy with Homer. Right, let's go easy with Homer.

Talking about the male breadwinner model and the economy is that it's really striking that the Simpsons is actually meant to be a story of generational downward mobility. So you've got Homer Simpson, union job, you know, in an industrial bit of the economy, the nuclear power plant, whose life and his world view is actually sort of a regression from that of his parents. Marge notably marries downwards. She's given the maiden name Bouvier, which is also whose maiden name?

Jacqueline Kennedy. Jackie Kennedy. So The Simpsons is a story of downward mobility, but still look at what it has that, like, just doesn't exist in the same way today, right? You've got a male breadwinner family, right? Marge doesn't have to go to work. And, you know, sometimes you have these episodes where she gets a job, right,

when Marge becomes a cop, which also has one of my favorite Homer Simpson bits ever, which is she arrests him and says, you have the right to remain silent. And he says, I choose to wave that, right? And just screams. My favorite Simpson's bit ever. Or, you know, like when she makes pretzels or whatever. But like a key bit of the sort of conflict between them

is that him being the sole breadwinner isn't delivering her the sort of cultural status or access to a more cultured world that like maybe she longs for deep down, like when she gets the Chanel dress from a bargain store. So it's interesting that like that's a story of declining status, but we look at it as like, oh wow, you could like support a family with a wife and three kids on one man's paycheck.

That's insane. Oh, wow. Like you own a house. Wow, will the children have their own bedroom? And there's the status bit. Sorry, I just remember another Simpsons bit, which is, which says everything about Homer status, which is when he's talking to Kirk.

and Kirk's like I have what's he say he says Kirk says does it and Homer goes I sleep in a big bed I have a raised car bed do you have a raised car bed

and he's like I sleep in a big bed with my wife that's everything about status and men's status but it's also like that's the sort of sweetness of Homer is that like he doesn't realize

that he's downwardly mobile like he doesn't want more than he has like he really loves his wife and he derives like all his meaning from it And that's why like the Simpsons is not a tragedy, right? And that's why there's like the inherent sweetness of it.

So that's Homer Simpson, all right? That's my first contribution, which is, it's interesting to me that this thing, which is like such a huge cultural phenomenon, like is itself a comment on its time that we don't realize. But even with his downward mobility, Homer, I think, has status within the community. That's the whole point.

Like, he has downward mobility, but he still has status because it's not inherently linked to money per se, like Mr. Burns has money and power, but does he have social status? Like, is he beloved by the community? Whereas Homer, I think, is a lot more beloved. People will do things for him. He has, in some ways, he has some respect.

Like, there's some weird respect there. I mean, it's sort of like yes and no, right? And like, I think that that's to do with, again, that's about the emotional core of the story, right? It's not that Homer is a pillar of his community, right? But he's sort of like a lovable bum. Like you get you get all these episodes where like, you know, you see Homer through a contemptuous eye, right? Like, you know, when his, when his beard gets like all fuzzy and grown out or where he's like wearing a paper bag, where like people are like, oh God, like you, you live like this.

And there are times where he feels a tiny, but he feels a flicker of shame about it. But like the thing is is that like I think that thing about him being like quite central to the community. of Springfield is because it's a show about like the inherent value of people right like it's and it's it's a show which is like centered on what is essentially a very loving family so I think that that's then reflected in like um his centrality it's also a show called the simpsons which means that like he's central to everyone else's fucking plotline but I also want to talk about like Henry David the row and maybe why I dispute I maybe dispute the idea that feeling a deep anger and grief, even when you've done everything right, job marriage kids, is new. Because in 1855 in the novel

Walden, Henry David Thoreau wrote, the massive men lead lives of quiet desperation. And then some, it's not actually in the novel, but some people add a line to it, which is from a poem, which is, and they go to the grave with the song still in them. But is that about repression? Well, it might be. But But really, it's saying that you lead a very conventional life, you play by society's rules, and there is a huge well of unfulfillment within. I think it's, and I think that you can interpret that through the repression of the age, but I think that maybe it's got something to do with drive, curiosity, exploration, meaning-making,

versus doing the things and participating in the things which I'm meant to give you status. Give you status. So really what that's speaking to is a conflict between sense of self and status. So I wonder then if the... Because I do think there is something going on with status at the moment, especially like social status,

because the Manusphere is all about this idea of reasserting hierarchy and power. And I think social media is such a hierarchical place that pays, that also puts a huge value on status. I guess maybe my question is more like maybe in the past that sort of grief and anger and desperation would have been interpreted as a repression of like creative function and the song still in the heart. But now like John Byrne Murdoch's analysis, and maybe my boyfriends too, there's an analysis

that seemed to the lens of status. And that in itself is a change, like trying to diagnose what the problem is in the past it was like this creative outlet is not being fulfilled or this the song is not being sung and now it's like well the status is gone and that must be the reason what's that change well like there's a sort of interesting thing right um i'm just doing thinking out loud so this might be complete bullshit that's what this entire podcast is that maybe what that indicates is that there was a healthier skepticism of status in the past that we've lost we've actually um become a lot more deferent to the idea that status will make you happy, whereas there's a whole body of literature,

of novels, of films, where the lesson to take from it is that you can go through life and you can jump through all these hoops, but it's not going to make you happy, it's not going to make you feel fulfilled. And maybe because we're dealing with like the loss of economic progression is that to achieve that high status, to be able to display. a level of like material abundance and material security is that that becomes the fantasy. We've lost it. So actually we we overdetermined from it how fulfilling it would be to have it. But does status mean to you then material abundance?

Because I don't think it always means that. Like, again, my boyfriend and I were talking and he was saying, you can be Elon Musk or you can choose to be a man living in like a rural Lancashire village who... The modern Diogenes. who is on a very average wage but has a lot of social status within that village and he is 10 times happier than Elon Musk will ever be.

But so then what we're talking about is being known. Well, this is the question, like what does status mean in different groups? That's what I want to know. So for example, I think online, status really coadulates around an idea of being known, of being recognized,

of having some prominence within, circle and also having a life that others aspire to or envy. Whereas I don't think that's, whereas offline, not everywhere, obviously, but I think different tribes have different status, but it tends to be like well networked in the community and someone with people around them, like actual people. So, I mean, this is something which I've been thinking about and have been writing for my South Bank lecture, which is about. the centrality of obligation to meaning, purpose, and feeling loved,

which is the kind of status that you're talking about online is that there's attention, there's interactions, but nobody has any fucking obligations towards you. And so there is an emptiness to it and then also precarity, because one of the things about social media especially is that you see, people fall from grace and being shamed all the time. Whereas the sort of point that you're making about someone who like maybe isn't that rich, certainly isn't famous,

but is known by their community. It's not simply being known. It's not simply being a big name on campus. It's not sort of like roaming around and everyone goes, oh my God, they goes home as Simpson. It's being at the centre of a network of reciprocal obligation. Yes.

Yeah. And that's something again I've been thinking about a lot recently. in regards to my own position, I guess, and what relationships I have with other people and how other people view me versus how I perceive myself and like the loneliness that I think I've let seep into a lot of relationships because there wasn't a feeling of like reciprocal obligation and there was definitely a wall that was put up

and I conducted so many relationships via WhatsApp for example. And that's not, sorry, so I'm going to get, going to get Lamite as I started calling it after August Lamb, who's no low-tech doctor and I'm starting to try and follow properly. And those relationships in some ways are not real. And we've talked about this before, but when you have relationships where all of your updates are coming through just instant messenger and there's not like the phone calls or the in-person interactions, there is a hollowness to them. And I really do believe that. Like it might not be true for everyone, okay?

But I do think it's, it's been true for me. And it's almost like, there was a lack of intimacy. It's a false intimacy that's been created. And I thought about this the other day. My boyfriend, when he covered the door for me, for example,

and I said, oh, this really means a lot to me. He's like, why did you keep going on about that? And I said, because I don't think anyone else would do it. And that's not maybe true. That's maybe not true. If I asked someone,

I'm sure another friend would do it. But there's a feeling there that if I asked a lot of people who I have supposed friendships with, they maybe would not do that because we haven't actually built up a language of reciprocal obligation to each other. We've built up something else. And I don't mean that to say that to disparage relationships. There are friends I have like very mutual obligation relationships. It's all about the way that I've set those friendships up.

And they mirror a lot of my online connections. And I think that's why for so long I've been really invested in an online self, an online persona where it's like you are a remove. but it also makes you feel, it feels so precarious. I feel so precarious about my online life and knowing that I'm fading away from attention the moment that I stop doing something or stop posting or stop being controversial

or stop saying something controversial. And I should shut out because I want you to come in on this, but I've been thinking a lot about what I've considered to be status and how chasing is such a Sisyphian task. Yeah. Because you will never be, be the top attention person and when you are it's hell

like even being in the cross I've never been in the crosshairs fully but even being in a little bit of the crosshairs the spotlight is insane it's horrendous it comes with so much negative blowback as well as positive you're either on a pedestal or you're in sort of like Hades to people

there's no in between and it doesn't come with the feelings exactly like these men are talking about it doesn't come with that satisfaction you think I've waited for all this attention and now I've got it's overwhelming. And then you start again. No, no, no.

So I think that like, I mean, I agree with you. I suppose like maybe you'll really disagree with me, but something which I feel very proud of is that I just, I know in my heart that that kind of status doesn't matter to me very much. And I know that there'll be people who say, well, that's because you've got so much of it. Da-da-da-da-da. But like, I honestly don't think that that's the main reason why it doesn't matter.

Like, I know. that like in my heart I'm operating from a knowledge that this shit doesn't matter. Like it just doesn't matter. It is not the mark of a life well lived. And like kind of the opposite. And I'm not going to tell too much of this story because I don't know if this person listens to the podcast or not. But recently I had some,

like recently I had some conversations with someone. I was like, fuck me. Your value system is so opposite. to mine in this regard, like how they were articulating status, their attachment status, and the kinds of people they wanted around them and like what they wanted to do was so mega fucked up. And like, you know, I say this all the time about the, the discourse around like high value dating, like, you know, a high value man. I was like, you've just reinvented prostitution. Congratulations. Like non-unionized prostitution is what you, you,

invented and they didn't invent that it exists already do you know what I mean like well done that's called the world's oldest profession and it's not about sort of like a stigmatizing of sex work but I think sex workers will tell you that actually if like what you're saying is you're looking for a relationship of mutuality and not transaction of mutual care and obligation and commitment that model of transaction is inherently corrosive to it. Like I don't think that's an anti-sectoral thing to say. I think it's just a fact.

And the fact that it has leached into discourses around finding partnership, particularly for people who are social media, adult, addicted, cannot separate themselves from it. Like, you know, at one point this person was showing me pictures of themselves, like, on their social media and I was just like, why you show it? like that's like that's what happens you know I like I felt I felt I felt really sad for them I felt really really sad for them and I think that this is just one thing where like I'm not

claiming to have an overall healthy sense of self um I do not claim to have an overall healthy sense of self I know where my low self-esteem lies but it is not here um it's absolutely not here And I think that part of the reason why that is is because actually there's been like a really remarkable level of continuity through my life in terms of friends, in terms of friends accruing and like a level of stability. I've been able to live in the same city all my life. I've taken, you know, I've taken jobs outside of that city, but it's always been like the place where I live. And it means that like, you know, I was at my friend's wedding. at the weekend.

And me and this friend went to the same school but not the same time because he's as old as the mountains name, young like a sapling. But I was the year above his younger brother at school. So I remember as like younger brother

and I think actually I've got a photo somewhere of like him and a couple of the other lads from when I bumped into them at a warehouse party when they were like 16 and very like oh my God, we're at a warehouse party and I was a cool, worldly 17, 18 year old. But like being there

at that wedding and just feeling like the layers of life and sociality being like lacquered on top of each other. That there is this group of friends which has existed since school. Like some of these guys have known each other since they were like 11. And then on top of that there's like just more people, more people, more people. And like that network of obligations becoming ever more intricate and rich and beautiful is that that is, I'm not saying this in terms of like

a privilege checking kind of way, but it is an immense privilege. And I think that the economy obviously relates to that. If you have to keep moving for work, if you have to keep moving because your landlord puts the rent up every 12 months, if your sense of self is kind of like, is weak and corroded,

and you're looking for valid, in the wrong places and in particular social media and it leaves those social connections withering on the vine. If also, like you're someone who is anxious, like one of the key markers of anxious people I've noticed is that they don't like different friends meeting. They like things one on one very much. And then they're feeling as that happens,

they're like a grip on the world weakening. Because actually what you need is friends who will meet up without you. You need to feel that this world continues. without you having to work so hard to keep it going. Like I feel like a certain effortlessness with my friends, not because I don't think about putting effort in, but just because I'm like, you don't need me for this group to function. Yeah.

Like it will exist without me. And so I don't know if there is a language of status that's fitting for it. Because yes, I think if you're sort of like, so I'm going to use another online word, status pilled. Like you can see it everywhere, right? And you'd be like, oh, well, that just means that your high status that you feel that way. And I'm like, well, no, I just feel like a cog

or months, lots of other cogs. I think, I feel like online and offline definitions of status are very different. That's also why at the start I wanted to like separate them because I think online, one of the reasons online as well is so addictive is because it first of all feeds you this idea of like status and hierarchy. And it's based on things that seem easier. to attain such as you just need to get a lot of followers. You just need to get some people liking your pictures.

You just need to have, show a life online that some people will aspire to. And that feels easier than a lot of the offline work, which is building reciprocal relationships with people and trying to find a piece. Like more and more I think that online is, is a world of sort of disturbed self. And that is kind of addictive because you're trying to treat. a problem that is exacerbated by online with online. So it's like there's, I feel, I feel a lack of sense of self.

I'm going to soothe this through buying and posting and more buying and more posting and more engaging. And all the while this like void inside is growing because what you're actually missing is those things you talked about, those rooted connections. And I don't think they need to be found in one particular place. Obviously settling and building a community is so important. I think what's really stark is obviously I am now away for like a period,

at least it might be forever, but I have to still sell stuff. So for now I'm, you know, away for now. And I'm trying to transition out of London. And I feel a lot more certain and happy with that decision because I have somebody who is rooting me in the real world who makes me feel, what was it you said earlier? Just like, just literally like two minutes ago about this like, off like like I have a sense of self with them

and it's of like mutuality and it's a real it's a real connection that makes me feel confident about going out and building other real connections and I think also with my friends something one of the magic things about the summer referencing what you said earlier was I've very it's very early

but I've started calling them and I've said to them I'm going to start calling you I'm not going to text you in the same way we were going to talk on the phone and I did it and it actually wasn't scaring, it was really good and I felt, I remember that call 10 times more than I remember any text that I've sent over the whole summer. You know, I remember those calls.

100%. They stick in my mind because I'm actually connecting with that person and I feel a lot more comfortable about my ability to try that and some of them will not reciprocate and that's okay. Like some of them will not be ready for that. That's fine. I think that also we like overly value like clarity. Like the way in which people talk about clarity sort of like collapse meaning into one thing.

And I think that that might come from the like dominance of like WhatsApp and like texting in people's lives. Whereas actually I think good communication needs imperfection and ambiguity and space for like multiple meanings to exist at the same time, which you can get when you're speaking to someone and you don't get when you're texting them. I know we have to wrap up this discussion soon, but I still want to ask, what do you think, understand, like, how do you think understanding status and how status plays into our lives will help tackling things like the Manistphithe? Or help tackle things like low self-esteem. I think that I would literally just do like a, like, command F, like find and replace the word

status with purpose. I think if we go back to the Henry David Thoreau, like the mass of men leads lives of quiet desperation. when the status of those men was very clear in terms of head of a household, da-da-da-da. Like, you know, women can't even vote then, let alone get credit, let alone have a bank account, let alone have an abortion, let alone be queer.

Women actually were very queer, but it was so taboo that they didn't believe when women were gay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I've talked about this before, but there's obviously men were being punished all over the shot for sodomy, but then women who were, there was this very famous court case,

I think it was Peary v. Woods, where two lesbian school teachers were literally witnessed by a people, fucking, and the court acquitted them because they couldn't believe it happened. Yeah, look. Women were just companions.

You just had a companion. I don't buy that. You said a companion. Women can't do that. Like, going back to, you know, periods of time, and I think that this is kind of, like, what needs to be the wrinkle

in the status conversation, is that in periods of time, where the status and the sort of like respectability of those positions was much more clear, you have writers saying, like, this is a life of quiet desperation. So I think that you can end up in a cold as, old cul-de-sac of status and just find another kind of misery, whereas actually purpose and reciprocal obligation,

that's the shit that'll make you happy. Oh, we talk about purpose a lot. And I think that's kind of the theme of this year. Yeah. Purpose might be the theme of if I speak for 2026. I think that's a good note to end that particular discussion on. I'm sure people have things to say. So send in your thoughts, listeners on status.

You can also comment under our podcast now, on Spotify list. I'm sure you can comment on Apple, but you can leave your comments and thoughts, and we do read them. I really like reading me. I love reading them. This is why I think we should have a. substack page where we just post the podcast every week so that people can just talk and chat. I think I want to read them. I want to chat to you guys. I think that would be great. Maybe I'll set that up with chat. We'll have a chat. Wait, before we get onto Big Trouble,

we should reference the South Bank event again because you've got a big chat there. And I'm also now involved in chatting to you. Yes. So I'm delivering the inaugural South Bank lecture on the 20th of September as part of its 75th anniversary. The theme is letters to the future and I'll be talking about the future of relationships and you've told me of for

giving the milk for free. No one will buy the cow. So here's just a little thimbleful, a little thimbleful. I'm basically thinking about

trust, obligation and, you know, love being itself a sort of rejection and refusal of the kind of Silicon Valley psychopathy that they're trying to impose on us. And I will be interviewing you afterwards about this lecture. Which is, they were just like, who's around? I'm genuinely, I'm locking myself in my. house at the weekend to put pen to paper. I'm super excited. It has to percolate loads and loads up here and then I just bash it out in a single

hostage session. We should at some point talk about writing processes because this next month I'm trying to re I'm my writing process is going to completely change because I'm off I'm off main work. I have four months to do book edits and this is why I'm doing low tech and I'm really excited to hear about your writing process and I'm trying to change my writing process. So at some point we should talk about writing braces. Well, you can't see is that in the other room, Maya,

uh, Moja has 10,000, sorry, Maya, Moja has 10,000 monkeys chained to 10,000 typewriters. It was the worst of times. It was the blurst of times. Stupid monkey. The worst thing is I got that joke yesterday from my boyfriend. She was referencing his favorite bit in the Simpsons because I was talking about how I was going to buy a typewriter. What's you, okay, right. Can we just do like one Simpsons bit each?

Okay. First of what comes to mine, favourite. Well, I don't watch as much as you, but mine, the one that speaks to me most is the bit where Marge is an estate agent and she's showing the house and then the house facade falls off and Lenny's inside and he goes, please don't tell anyone how I live. That's what speaks to me on a deep, deep level.

That's how I feel. It's not as funny, but it speaks to me. Or Ralph Wiggum, or not Raff Wiggum, Chief Wiggum sing and Jammin. Because I was always like, I know that song when I was little. Yours. I suppose, all right, this is, this is one of my, like, lived favorites, right? This one which, like, comes up again and again, which is my friend who got married, like me and him have one, which we only say, like, when you've seen something that you feel

that you're not supposed to and you can't unsee. And it's the Raniot-Wolf Castle, it's a gawgles, do nothing. So-Gar. Yes, yes. That's very good. The Simpsons is a bit for everything. It has a bit for literally everything. Okay, but also people, if you want to come and see us not talk about The Simpsons much.

It's on the 20th of September at South Bank and you can get, what time is it? Is it evening or midday? Evening. Evening. And you can get tickets on South Bank's website. Come down. I'm literally coming down to London for that. It'll be very exciting.

I'm coming down to the South Bank. So we are at, I'm in big trouble. I'm in big trouble. As you know, it is our. regular dilemmas segment and if you are in big trouble medium trouble big eno trouble email us at if i speak at navaramedia.com that's if i speak at navaramedia dot com who wants to read this do you want to or do i want to also can i just say special ones you've been very good recently about your attractions i have to i always give props when

you use the system properly we've had people send them in they've gone within 25s they've gone actually can i retract this first of all i hope it helped you writing that down secondly well done. That's exactly how the system should be used. I'm doing Pavlov's conditioning. You're getting positive reinforcement. There's going to be someone with a praise king going on. Good. Do you want to read or shall I read? I'll read. Yeah, let's go. Dear, if I speak, I have a grave dilemma. My best friend definitely fancies me and I don't know whether to continue ignoring it or to talk to her about it. Oh wow, your problem is someone fancies you. Your lobster is too buttery. No, that kind of. Can be a real problem.

No, I know it is. It is. I'm just joking. I'm joking, special one. We are both women in our late 20s. We've been friends for about a year and a half and she became my best friend when she helped me through a recent breakup earlier this year. I first became aware that she was into me when she would say little things.

Like I had a dream last night. I was kissing someone. I can't remember who. But I could tell by the way she was saying it. It was obviously about me. I recently went through a big breakup and she was my absolute rock through that. She saw me at my worst and helped me through the horror of a long-term relationship breaking down. She was and is really there for me

and I'm there for her too. Before long she started asking me in subtle and not so subtle ways repeatedly if I was gay. I am bisexual but the thing is that I really needed her friendship and while she is lovely and gorgeous I didn't want to do anything that would ruin that so I just deflected the question every single time.

I'm now over my breakup and back in the dating pool and her suggestions and hints get stronger and stronger. She knows I'm bi because I've been dating women and I also mentioned my sexuality to her a couple of months after my breakup to her must. delight. We flirt a bit as best friends often do, but she's coming on stronger and more plainly. She's desperate for love and has made it clear how attractive and how her type she finds me.

I think she's suffering. The plot thickens because she's moving in with me soon. Oh God, this is a real problem. And I'm trying to maintain a don't shit where you eat policy. My approach to this, not engaging with her on this topic, comes from needing her friendship through a breakup. But I'm now over my breakup, so I can't use that as an excuse anymore. She's been very unlucky in love and talks to me often about her feelings about this. We are very, very close and we see each other multiple times a week. We confide in each other about a deepest, darkest secrets and have a special trusting relationship. She is my best friend. If I talk to her about it, it might be crushing and harsh the vibe between us. She must know that I know she's into me. How could I not? She

either knows this and knows I'm ignoring it or thinks I'm entirely oblivious. Part of me thinks if she could get a nice girlfriend, then all this would go away, but she's been very unlucky in love and there's perhaps no point in speculating over hypotheticals. I just don't engage when she flirts and flatters me and basically tells me how into me she is. But every time I think she's given up or moved on and it dies down, before long it comes back again. The thing is, she is very attractive.

And I would happily kiss and sleep with her, but with her moving in, I don't want to muddy the waters. She's also really special to me. I love her. I cherish her. I'm looking forward to her living with me. I don't want to ruin that relationship. But there's an elephant in the room that's now big enough for me to write to you about it.

Should I continue ignoring this and hope it resolves itself? Or should I acknowledge that we both know that, or should I acknowledge what we both know is going on and talk to her about it? How can I put my best friend down like that? Maybe let her down rather than put her down, which seems a bit extreme. Sorry, we've got to go to the vet. Look, it's one way to solve the problem. are something's better left unsaid

should I only mention it if she actually makes a move on me thing is I'd be down I just don't want to spoil things with best friend wishes special one special one what do you want special one what do you want

you've talked yourself in and out of this throughout this whole dilemma at the start I think it's clear to me from this dilemma you are on, if it's on balance, you're a no. I don't think you actually want to get with your best friend, but you do find her attractive and that's difficult. But the entire dilemma is,

should I, how do I turn her down? And then at the end, you're like, actually, I do want to fuck. And that's really, really difficult because it's also the question of, do you want to fuck or do you want to pursue a relationship with this person? The problem is you two are conducting your relationship. on different terms. She fancies you those feelings might be even deeper. You're essentially wiped up, but without a sexual connection.

She's now trying to bring that sexual connection in. And I think with friendship, and this goes for all gender friendship, there are lots of very close friendships you have where you are essentially a partner to the other person, especially for single. But because you two are queer, she now has actual romantic feelings. you know and you're like do I actually have romantic feelings for this person or do I just really like her and then I'm also aware she's attractive and would sleep with her but I don't actually want to pursue a relationship it's hard because you don't know what you want so I

don't know what to say to you about what you want I think you have to really work out and make a decision because right now the uncertainty is the problem and I think there are paths forward for both of these situations I do think living together and starting relationships is crazy work. And you also definitely shouldn't fuck if you're going to live together. That is also crazy work. I've not seen that go well.

There's like one or two exceptions. And those are people who had affairs. Well, they were living together. And then went to live somewhere else together rather than like, you know. But most people have to end up moving out. So what I would say is you have to decide, you have to really make a decision.

You have to put in your big girl pants and decide, am I going to pursue this? Am I not going to pursue this? And then you choose the course of action because you have a trusting relationship, there are ways to talk to this person about how you feel and what you want. And yes, it might cause problems.

But why did you decide guys decide to move together in together? She was to live with you because she loves you. That's the thing. That's the thing. It's that special one. And I say this with love. You are responsible for creating a state of ambiguity. Because it's interesting.

to me that this whole thing is really like, well, she was this for me then, right? I relied on her to get through my breakup and now I'm kind of over it. But also, like, you know, I'd be down if the circumstances were different, which is, I think that there is something which sounds to me a little bit like you've been getting something from this like quasi-relationship, not relationship, right? like, you know, she's an attractive woman, she's into you, when she breaks the ambiguity, you don't like it. But when she has been part of preserving the ambiguity,

you've gotten things that you need from it. And I think that this is the thing which is like, living together is obviously nuts. Like it makes it so much harder to preserve the kind of of very careful fiction that you've been a part of creating. Like, I do sort of think that you're just going to end up doinking, to be honest. How could you not? I just think you will.

Your will, pal is going to fail one day. You'll be drunk or high and you'll come home and you're like, I've heard so many people tell me about how they ended up doinking their housemate. And then it goes tits up because the housemate has real feelings for them. and they were just like, I was just horny, man. And what happens when you doink? Ultimately, you've got two options, and I don't think you're going to like either of them, special one.

One is that you are the one to collapse the ambiguity. And you have to initiate a conversation, which is very uncomfortable. And like your friend will be hurt by it, where you have to say, this is my read on what's been going on between us, and this is like how I feel. And you've then got to be woman enough to stick to it, right?

Like it's no good saying it and then continuing to behave in a way which is like allowed sort of like ambiguity and possibility to thrive. Like you've got to be the one to like not go back on that. Because the thing is that if you've been dancing this dance for long enough, your friend will be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally hear you, but doesn't. All right? Like, that's what, like, that's going to happen. Or option two is, like, you actually put some distance between the two of you.

And you don't move in together. But you have to communicate why you're doing that. But that's, and that's the thing is that in both options, you actually sort of like, both times the ambiguity has to get collapsed. Yeah, you have to say. Because otherwise you're just pulling away from someone who has deep feelings for you with no explanation. And that is so hurtful. especially after if you are as I suspect

consciously or unconsciously encouraging the dynamic and then it's just like you've just pulled away from the intimate and she will fill in the gaps of why that is and that narrative you know will be very painful especially if you're as close as you are you're basically in a relationship you're just not in a romantic relationship

but you have to now say how do you reconstruct the relationship on terms that you actually want and you need to think about whether you do want to be in a relationship with this person or not Like I want you to consider that option because if you then put distance between yourself and then go, oh actually I do want to be in a relationship with person and I was just nervous.

I don't think you do, but you have to ask yourself that question and explore the option internally. Otherwise you'll do that thing of like, why didn't I go down that path? And then you'll come back and then you'll fuck and then you'll be like, actually I don't want this and it'll be even more painful. And that's the thing is that like you'll forever

have an asymmetrical dynamic. If you do it like that. But like, I suppose the thing that I want to say because I don't need to feel like too judged as that like. No, you're not judged. I too have been in friendships that were secretly relationships. Same. I too have danced the avoidance, Charleston. And I think that this is kind of quite,

it's like a really common thing that especially happens after breakups. Like especially after breakups, like people create substitute relationships for themselves. And extricating yourself from it is, really, really tricky. But you can get a really worthwhile friendship on the other side of it. Just that can only happen when,

one, your lives look very different from the space that you're in now. Often that means, like, both of you having, like, found other partners and two, you actually having a true understanding, even if it's just within yourself, about what happened. Yeah.

I agree. Conquer. Most in past. next case that's a gavel um okay that's like for us today cool let's wrap this shit up bye special ones we love you the cult in jewels bye see you at the mystery rights later