If I Speak - 24: Help! What’s my purpose in life?

Episode Date: July 30, 2024

Moya and Ash butt heads over the lure of individualism and living a political life. Plus: Moya enters her busy-body era with a new segment, Missed Connections! Tell us about the brief encounters you just can’t shake, and we will hunt them down and make them bae. Email us your missed connections with as much […]

morning we're back although i guess for the special ones we were never actually away thanks to the magic of recording podcasts but we've actually both been on various forms of leave ash what have you been up to with your time off i've been in full book writing gremlin mode because i've got oh about a week before the final final manuscript has to be off with the copy editor um and i don't know maybe maybe there'll be like a a bigger conversation about this one day about what it's like when you've just got this like massive project and labor of love like hanging over your head and like the stages of like i'm so excited to do this thing and then going oh my god i'm the worst possible person to try and do this thing and

then you come out of it again and you're like fuck yeah I can do this thing and at the moment I'm feeling very very fuck yeah um but I haven't done loads of speaking to real people who I don't live with um over the last month I've just been um in the spare room sort of like surrounded by like apple cores and like bags of you know tea bags which are in various stages of moldiness and like empty cups apart from I went to Durham Miners Garda for one weekend that was like my day release but yeah that's what I've been up to whereas you I mean people can't tell if they're listening to the podcast you look very tanned you look very glowy I am very tanned and I'm very glowy.

I was... Also, we should probably introduce ourselves quickly. I forgot. I realized I forgot to do that. Who are you? I'm Moilothi McLean and you are? Ash Sarkar, writing Gremlin. And this is If I Speak.

Yeah, I went on a little... I've said this before, but every year now when I have the funds, I try and do a three-week backpack trip mostly solo sometimes phone a couple of friends at the end which i did for the first time this year uh and i chose this year to go around some of the balkan countries so i went to bosnia montenegro and albania and it was probably one of the most instructive uh informative nourishing trips i've ever done in my life until next year because every year i say this every year i say this about the trip but it really yeah bosnia in particular a country that from the outside i think you see you see a lot of videos about how beautiful bosnia

is and that's all true but the i've never encountered a people, at least in the Federation, who are so immediately open, politically engaged, have this life philosophy, at least the people that I spoke to, which is kind of our similarities are more than our differences. divided country because of the ramifications of uh the bosnian war and the various balkan wars that happened in the 90s but the bosnian war in particular it's crazy the parallels it has today with the the genocides that we see going on and people there from the get-go they'll just talk to you about like bosnia and palestine they they link everything together they're so engaged with politics outside of the country as well they're of the situation, they're so, I guess, locked in to what's going on, both with the UN, with Britain. I was talking about the elections and the people had a level of knowledge that I think lots of English people wouldn't even have about their own elections. It really was one of the most amazing countries I've ever been to.

But I know also that there's large swathes of bosnia where people think very very differently and there's you know in in certain areas which are populated by a rising tide of i would say serb nationalism then there's a mass amount of genocide denial it is a country that people still fear there's going to be another war but they also say that nationalism is almost worse than ever because of the the way that people still fear there's going to be another war but they also say that nationalism is almost worse than ever because of the the way that people the segregation that still goes on the segregation that has gone on since the war and the way people are taught and it's sort of divided between three separate ethno-nationalist groups i guess that didn't exist before the war the war literally invented this division that didn't exist before the war. The war literally invented this division that didn't exist before.

And it was just fascinating to go to. I've got a friend who, he's American, but his background is Serbian. You know, and he's like a proper comrade, you know, like he's like the last proper anarchist who I know. Like, he's just like, I don't like the state. And he was telling me about

his grandma who obviously lived through the existence of Yugoslavia and then the breakup Yugoslavia and the war and she hadn't traveled for a really long time and I think they were getting ready you know to take her somewhere and they're like oh um you know grandma is your passport in date and she was like of course my passport is in date and she brought it out and it was still a yugoslavian passport and they were like grandma like you can't you can't travel on this like it's of a country that doesn't exist anymore and she was like what tito says it's good for life which is my favorite phrase for anything if someone's like this thing's really old and it's not gonna work i'm just my brain auto completes like tito says it's good for life this is what's interesting like in bosnia there's a lot

of nostalgia among the older generations for yugoslavia and the life that was uh given to them by yugoslavia because yugoslavia was basically depending on where you go it was either a dictatorship or it was like an amazing version of socialism basically it was it was communism but they called it soft communism. So they call it socialism. And they say, you'll get different remembrances depending on where you are in Serbia or in Serb nationalist areas of Bosnia.

They absolutely hate Yugoslavia now and the idea of Yugoslavia. And if you talk to Bosnians, they talk about the Serb nationalists. Not all Serbs are nationalists. I'm just talking about Serb nationalist areas as well. Serb nationalists and Serbia proper, there's this idea of like sky people that if you're Serbian and you're not actually ruling over the territory, you failed in your duty as both a Serbian and then it's also drawn along religious lines now. There's

so many different competing factors, but in Bosnia as well, there was a real um what's the word empathy and understanding in line with northern ireland and the the sort of the conflict that went on there and the way that that was generated and the terms that it was then expressed along so there's there's it's just a really interesting place but if you go to albania which had a different type of communism altogether which was not communism in my book it was it was literally just a paranoid dictator they don't like uslavia they don't like communism and they also don't like the ottomans at all if you're in bosnia and they talk about the ottomans or the bosnian federation they're like wow the ottomans you know they set up

municipal funds they helped build the country initially into what it was and then you go into like albania and they're like, the Turks, they don't talk about the Ottomans. They talk about the Turks, which again, they talk about Serbian. Like the Turks raped our women and replaced our genome. They wanted to take us over. It's just so interesting how different one border

has now made the understanding of the country and the narrative around the country. Yeah, Balkans, a fascinating area. I really, really think people should visit but speaking of dictatorships i'm taking oh yeah take control take control don't let me talk about my holidays i'm taking control here i'm seizing control it's a coup because i know history graduate that you are you're gonna want to talk about the balkans but actually there's a different idea that you've got to tell us about.

Yes. Moya, the floor is yours. Okay. Yeah, I'll stop talking about the Balkans. I'm so sorry. Okay, so I have this idea and I want to do it with the special ones and wider audiences. Basically, it's called Miss Connections. And I got this idea because I was on a train and I was looking over at this really attractive man.

And I thought it'd be so easy just to talk to him. It'd be so easy just to talk to him. And obviously I didn't talk to him. And I downloaded Tinder because I saw him swiping through Tinder. I knew he was single. I knew he was single. I downloaded Tinder and started looking for him on Tinder after the train. And I was like, this is ridiculous.

He was right in front of you. And I've noticed lots of people have lost the art of going up to someone and they used to have this thing called misconnections which is when on the tube you would send in your the person that you saw and then hopefully they'd read it in like the metro because that was mass circulation and i've now seen people metro the evening standard the london paper when that existed l, London paper actually had a great, great missed connection. Exactly, missed connections. It was based on like spotting people in public places and on public transport and wanting to talk to them, missing your chance.

But now I've seen people do it on like TikTok where they'll say, oh, I was sitting next to this guy in the bar and I need you to find him. He's like this. And I'm always like, well, you were sitting next to him, you know where he is. You don't need to find him, he's right but i get it i really get it so i want to trial this thing where we get listeners and non-listeners to send in their missed connections without fear or

embarrassment because you can keep anonymous unless unless the misconnection replies um and then we'll share it both on the podcast and on social media like once a month we'll gather together the misconnections read them out circulate them on our various social media platforms and try and find your boo your potential bae i think this is a great idea because i recently ran a radical connection session where i was connecting people in real time um at Glastonbury and that seemed really successful. So I'm like, you know what? Let's see if we can bring some people back together just so they can get rid of the fantasy. I love this because you are so in your busy body era.

Like you are just in your busy body era. And you know what? I love that for you. If you've got a misconnection, if there's someone you saw, but you didn't talk to, or maybe there's someone who you spoke to, but you just didn't get their number, or I don't know how people keep in contact anymore.

Like, do you exchange socials instead? I still prefer the intimacy of a number, or I did when I was in the game but if there's someone who could have been bae but you just didn't you didn't seal the deal email us at if I speak

at navaromedia.com that's if I speak at navaromedia.com and if you could put in the subject line missed connection that would be great it would just really help us organise ourselves yeah we need to know the what the where the when and you know description of the person um that would that's all helpful otherwise we can't connect yeah something more specific than mega hot yeah it's got to be like the seat opposite me i was in seat 22 on the train that kind of vibe on the liverpool to london train at 10 46 that's what we need we

need some details okay i don't know why you thought that the person would be ultra nasal like kirsten was sending in his connections i missed finding my conscience in a bar in all bar one anyway anyway i'm not ready to get sued i'm not ready to get sued so i'm not going to talk about that i think you've got some questions for me oh i always have questions for you but i have specific questions for you right number one i don't think i've ever asked you this what is as we're everyone's favorite podcasters what is your favorite podcast oh it's no surprises here i the rest is politics this american life fuck you i don't like you i quit um

no surprises i really like this american life um obviously the politics of it are more centrist than my own politics but i just think they've really cracked how to tell a story and how to take you from something super tangible and grounded and small to something which is much bigger and I talk about this all the time internally at Navarra Media, Moya you will have heard this a million times but they did this amazing episode which was just about rats and some of it was from the perspective of the rat. And some of it was like, it was all really funny,

but actually it was about local government through the lens of rats. And I always wang on about it in our editorial meetings to say, look, talking about systems is boring, right? People switch off when you talk about systems. What's your, find your rat right what's your tangible way into talking about the system so yeah that rap episode really was stellar i love

that everyone has their individual piece of culture where they're like this is the gold standard of what i want to do this is it and yours is the rat episode okay question two what is a piece of art that you really get that you stand in front of or you see and you're like, I get this to my core? You know what, it's so funny. I was talking about this with my partner last night and I was going on about how abstract expressionism

was the original sin because I fucking hate that shit. I'm sorry if there are any abstract expressionists who listen to our podcast. I value your listenership, but honestly, the kind of art that you practice like that shit i'm sorry if there are any abstract expressionists who listen to our podcast i i value uh your listenership but like honestly the kind of art that you practice was invented by the cia it like it was literally promoted by the cia to like break down the power of like socialist realism and socialist art making um i've got two two main kinds of art that i really really like

so one is you give me some renaissance shit you, really like. So one is you give me some Renaissance shit, you give me some fucking Caravaggio, you give me some Titian, stuff which is very narrative in its own way and connected to myth and biblical stories, but also the sort of warring factions of Italian politics at the time. I'm all over it. I love it. I love it so, so much. And then the flip side of that is, as I said, like, I really like socialist art. I really like Diego Rivera. I really like Fernand Leger. That's my shit. And I remember going to Mexico City and seeing the massive, massive Diego Rivera murals where like there's Trotsky and there's Lenin and there's you know figures from Mexican history and there's also street scenes and all of this is sort of brought into the same tableau and I was like I get this and I like it but yeah fucking hate abstract

expressionism third question is there an accent or dialect that you really can't stand um no because i really enjoy all accents even ones that typically are thought of as like off-putting and unattractive cough cough white south african um i i just i just enjoy them and i really love trying to do accents and trying to learn what sort of mouth shapes and like facial muscles go into doing different accents. I know that like there's a level of cultural insensitivity to that. And that's why I try not to do it in public, but I can't help myself. I enjoy accents so much. And my mom is fucking brilliant at accents. She's the best person at accents I've ever met. And it's because when she was young, she was moving from country to country a lot. So she had to pick up languages really quickly. And that means that she will unconsciously

imitate the accent of whoever she's speaking to. And I've literally seen her talking to like my Irish best friend and sounding like she's from Derry and then switching immediately to like you know broad Yorkshire because she was talking to my stepdad to like you know speaking Bengali to someone and she doesn't realize she's doing it and when I was little and we'd be like walking somewhere or like driving somewhere I would treat her like an accent jukebox I'd be like do Italian do Irish doreek and she'd do it you're so cute i'm just imagining little ash demanding as entertainment your mom doing all these different accents being like oh my god do the italian again that's such a sweet image that's adorable oh um okay away from

my ovaries away from my ovaries can't get them going there's no there's no hope there leave them to rot um shall i regale you with my intrusive thought because i need some help ash i need some help okay this is an intrusive thought i've been having for a while maybe it's part of that saturn return we discussed i don't know um and I'm just going to say out loud because I think people believe because of my job and the public profile that I have that I don't get thoughts like this, but I do. I'm not a great person, okay? I do have moral failings.

And my thought is, my question is, how do I stay strong against the lure of blissful, ignorant individualism? So I guess I'll keep it short. I'm really tired. I'm so tired. Ash, I'm tired. And I'm in a dangerous position because I'm tired from a place of relative economic,

let's call it privilege for lack of a better word, even though I hate the word privilege. We know what it means, okay? I'm not secure per se because only people who have that big generational wealth are of my age group, but I have an amazing job. I have a house that I can just about pay the bloody rent on and still have space to live. I go on holidays, like we've talked about. I can come back and bore people about the Balkan War for ages. I do fun things without major impediment. And yet, yet the constraints of our social and economic situation are really wearing.

I am constantly worried about money. I'm always fretting about how to make more money. I cry a lot about not having enough money or being able to make more money. Being on the left also feels just exhausting in general. Not hopeless. There's always hope, but it feels grinding. And I don't know if I have the stones to make it. And I don't mean make it in terms of job. I mean, see it through, see the course, live my entire life like this. And this is a dangerous position because i could just sack it all off i could go full individualist i could go full swaddle me and the lure of consumerism uh i'm going capitalism baby because i have that luxury this is the problem it's not that i am such an oppressed individual that i i'm doing this from a place of sort of like I don't know scarcity it's more that

I'm doing this from a position of I could just go ignorance I could just go lotus eater I daydream about that a lot I daydream my daydreams about a corporate nine-to-five logging out affording to learn to drive a house therapy like the opposite I guess it's the opposite of the life that I live really um but is this just the case of the grass being greener elsewhere because I know I can only think this about myself because I have the advantage of that being an option so this is very first world problems I'm so aware of that that's why it's an embarrassing thing to talk about in some ways but I always think I might need to get it out there because sometimes you need to remind you of your own you need to talk about your own selfishness otherwise it will

just overtake you and I guess my question is how do I stop myself from choosing to eat the lotus fruit so I think the first thing is that you're conflating and pressing two things together right one issue is the way money and a lack of financial security and stability makes you feel and I think we should talk about that because it's so so so so real um and I also think that like if you've experienced financial insecurity it never leaves you like I'm a lot more financially secure now than I was when I was growing up certainly a lot more financially secure now than I was in my 20s but I'm so money under the mattresses and it takes my partner to be like no you can spend this money you you can do it and I'm like no because what if everything goes terribly wrong like even

when I don't have any objective reason to worry about money I still worry about money like money exerts a sort of disciplining effect on everybody where you always feel like you don't have enough right like it and that fear of of falling into the oblivion of destitution is what keeps us all locked into the system. That's some Marx 101 baby. And then the second thing you're talking about is, well, what if I could choose not to commit myself to looking right at the ills of the world and analyzing them and trying to work towards making them better and i think these are just two separate issues because you know there are overpaid people on the left i'm probably one of them but there are lots of overpaid people on the left there are very cushy jobs on the left they're not

at navarra media but i was about to say you're not being overpaid by navarra media ash that's not where the overpay is coming from elsewhere elsewhere elsewhere and there and there are very very overpaid jobs within the movement all right like if you wanted to you could go work for like a really really big climate funder you could earn 90k a year if you wanted to. And that's the thing. I don't necessarily think it's the most effective place for you to be, but you could do it if you wanted to. I don't think that would make you feel like you are any more insulated from knowing about the ills of the world. All right? I don't think you would. So I just think it's really important to like take that separately so i'm gonna flip a question back to you which one do you want me to talk about do you

want me to talk about the money or do you want me to talk about knowing about the ills of the world i think it's the money really like the ills of the world thing i don't i don't at my core want to switch off from that what i want is financial security and it feels like i'd have to excuse the term because i know a lot of people do work jobs like this but i'd be seen as selling out because of all the shit that i go on about if i if i fucked off and did a corporate job much i'd like to but it's from the money it's the money that drives everything it's the money that i look like i'm not also i'm not like you I'm not money under the mattresses this is a problem I like spending money I am a dirty piggy capitalist really in the way that I in the way that I spend and the way that I my financial habits operate I'm not this you know amazing I don't feel sorry

for me don't feel sorry for me because I have and I'm saying to the audience who might be listening yes I grew up in like a single parent household with benefits, but I also now have, you know, I have a middle-class income. I have people who have always been a safety net for me. I have to pay so much tribute to my sort of stepdad. Complicated, complicated set up there. But the man who essentially raised me, even if he wasn't married to my mum and didn't live in the same house,

who has always financially backed me in times of trouble. So there has been a safety net. I don't want people to think I haven't had that safety net. It's important for people to know that that has been there. Otherwise, 10 years time, I'll have people trying to do exposés on me and fucking Twitter or whatever being like, oh, she had this, she had this. No, I'm telling you right now I had this. It's not about that. What I'm also aware of is that I am a classic sort of like middle-class squeezed millennial in that I'm feeling the pinch. And there's so many people who have it worse off than me. I need that to say that. I need to say that now. The problem is the mindset that I have is the same sort of mindset that gets landlords put your rent up. When we feel squeezed, we're

like panicking and looking to protect ourselves better so it's the financial i want i want to know how i i square this financial insecurity and stop it making me choose bad decisions decisions that will rot my soul decisions that will go against the principles that i profess or whether i just have to kind of like live with this insecurity and be miserable or whether i just need to in the words of kim k get my get my ass up and work, like fully succumb to the captors thinking that I'm just not working hard enough. Well, I mean, look, so the first thing is I'm not here to judge jobs that other people do, unless you work for like fucking BAE systems or Lockheed Martin. Like I'm just, whatever, like you've, you've, you've made your choices. So I'm going to talk

to you, Moya, and about your choices. So this isn't about choices in general, it's about your choices. The fact is, is that could you make more money doing something else? Certainly. Would you feel fulfilled? Probably not.

And this is the thing which I think that we need to remember is that like, in the 90ss a staple of pop culture was this idea of people who were hollowed out and unfulfilled and deeply unhappy by doing office jobs which met their material needs right it's like okay well I work in the city and I've got a good flat and I could afford a car very much that moment of like, you know, the peak of like liberal world domination, like everyone's middle class now, famously, that's what John Prescott said. I think like a little bit ironically, but also serious, like we're all middle class now. There was a real awareness about the kind

of like unhappiness and alienation and dissatisfaction that came with that you know i feel personally incredibly lucky to work with a sense of mission and a sense of purpose i get up every single day knowing that what i'm going to do if i do it well will have some kind of impact, right? It might not change the world tomorrow, but I know that the only thing that will decide whether or not what I'm doing matters is how competent I am at doing it, right? It will totally be on me if it doesn't land. And that's a different kind of privilege. It's not just an economic privilege it's a privilege of of um satisfaction and a privilege of meaning and it's also a privilege of the trust that people have put in you like when you've got the kind of platform that you and i have which is generated financially from our supporters putting their money in that is a bond of trust that they're

putting in you. And I think that you should feel very held by that. There are responsibilities that come with it. And I don't think that you can be blasé about it or sort of ungrateful about it or see it purely as a reflection of you, but it's a reflection of how people feel about you politically. And I think that that's so so important and I think about this you know the trade union movement is not the same as running a media organization I just want to put that first and foremost I'm not like okay well the work you do representing your members in like you know a dispute over pay that's the same as like making a podcast like I am not saying that just putting that front and center but when you see somebody like mick lynch he's so purposeful because he

knows that what he's representing is so much bigger than himself he's representing the trust that his members have put in him and the democratic mandate that he has as a elected general secretary now obviously no one fucking elects us to do this shit right there's not there's not such strong bonds of accountability and i think rightly so like you can't you can't really run journalism like that the you know that it's a different kind of thing but i think that there are similar dynamics where it's like well you're here to represent something that's bigger than you you're here to represent a movement of people and experience a generation what however way you want to define it and i think that that's the kind of thing that you you need to to bear in mind which

is that you are not an individual how do you resist the lure of individualism is remembering that you're not an individual. Nobody is. To be an individual, that's a kind of mythic construction around our real social selves. is that we've got jobs that reflect that fact. And you want to give it up for a corporate job where you are going to feel lonely. Not on my fucking watch. Not on my watch. How honest do you want me to be? How honest do I get? Be honest.

I don't have the same faith that I do the things that you've just said. I think you do them. I don't think I do them. And I don't think that I'm in that position per se. I think we have very different public profiles and different roles. And I also think I would be crushed by the idea

that I somehow represent people in that manner because it's too much of a burden. I see what it takes to do that or even people to feel like you represent them and i don't think i have the stamina for that i i see the toll i see the joys it brings you know for like you and other uh people within the organization and other similar organizations, I also see the downsides. I see the weight of what happens when someone thinks they represent you. What happens when someone thinks you represent them and how quickly that curdles and how you will always let them down.

It's never enough. It's never enough for people. And I also don't think I represent people. I think my major role has been to just be like a renter gob I don't think that I'm using my talents particularly well I don't know what my purpose is anymore um so maybe that's why the individualism stuff is not even individualism that's why there is the daydreams about like what else I should do with my life because I'm not sure I'm actually fulfilling like what else i should do with my life because i'm not sure i'm actually fulfilling myself and like what i could do in the in the best possible way and i don't think that i think i'm letting people down to be honest i don't think i'm actually providing that much value and you don't have to make me feel like i am i'm just i'm just i'm just being really honest let's get really

fucking real with the people listening to this that's maybe what the value i can provide letting you know that i'm really not all that and that i don't i don't know what i'm doing anymore okay number one who told you that anything worth doing in this life was going to be easy it's not about easy this is what i'm doing feels easy it feels easy that's the problem all right like anything that's worth doing is going to exact a fucking toll all right and no no like it like it is and you know i've not i've not known you a super duper long time and actually like the time period which i've known you has been like um the the period in which i was coming out of like probably like the worst political experience

and sense of personal responsibility for that experience like of my entire life which was the 2019 general election um like obviously that was the moment that Corbynism was defeated and I had to see that exit poll come in and then I had to go all around the fucking news studios channel 4 ITV and be on camera looking like someone who had just been told they had to go all around the fucking news studios, Channel 4, ITV and be on camera looking like someone who'd just been told they had to pass a kidney stone. And people were mocking me to my face. They were laughing at me in my face.

Other journalists were doing it. I'm not gonna name names, but they were some fucking pricks about it. They were really, really, really reveling in my humiliation. And it wasn't just other journalists. There was like a Navarra Christmas party a few days later. Someone who's part of the movement came up to me and said, this is your fault. Like said it directly to me. This is your fault. And in the intervening past five years, the thing I've had to do is both build up some confidence again, but also really look at the things that I got wrong.

Look at the things that I called wrong and understand why I did it and learn and be better. Like it really sucked. And you can go one of two ways, right? You can either go, well, people are hurting my feelings. So the thing I've got to do is block out everything they're saying. And the other way you can go is go, I feel so ashamed. I've got to do is block out everything they're saying and the other way you can go is go I feel so ashamed I'm never going to come out of my house again and the thing that I've had to do and I've not been able to do this alone I've done it with the support of people at Navarra Media I've done it with the support of people who I'd broadly call like my comrades people who I have a shared sense of political purpose with done it with the support of my housemate and my husband who are two different people,

just to say, obviously my husband is also my housemate, but like two separate people. Like that has allowed me to really look at myself and go, all right, what did I get wrong? And do it with a degree of like love and empathy. It's like, okay, well, I was put in this position at the age of 25, making these big calls and getting some stuff wrong. I was a fucking baby.

And did it suck? Did it hurt? Yes. Is it worth doing? Yes. Because like, I don't know. I don't want to sound like a complete like megalomaniac, but I think that leadership, showing leadership is one of the most generous things you can do and I think it's really hard to do well and I'm not saying that I do it well but I just think that it's so needed like there were very few people who could model what I was doing to me right the the two people who could do it somewhat owen jones obviously his experience is very different he's a white guy obviously experiences a huge amount of homophobia but like it's different and the other person being diane abbott um again different because she's an mp and

not not a journalist but when it comes to the experience of that kind of super racialized very gendered abuse i was like okay you're you're modeling something for me not very many people um and i i want to be able to model something for other people and i want to to show a form of leadership which is like you can also do this you should participate in this movement and you should feel powerful doing it the last thing i want to say and this is very much not about me and it's about an experience that i had recently which is i went to the durham miners gala for the first time and for those of you who don't know um there used to be miners galas all over the north like every pit village would have their own gala where people would come out, there'd be the brass bands, there'd be the hand painted banners. And now it's basically Durham Miners Gala is the

one that's left. And I went with a group of friends, basically the sort of like communist dinners crew and my housemate and my and my husband again two separate people uh we went together and i i didn't really know what to expect um i didn't have a really firm idea of what it was going to be like and it was beautiful and it was moving and you go and you see embodied in front of you the values of solidarity and fraternity and belonging and unity, these hand-painted banners, which are these emblems of a dream of a different world and a different way of doing things. The power in it, the mourning in it, the grief that's in it, it was honestly one of the most moving experiences of my entire life. And again, it's like, how do you want to look at it? You can look at it and feel sad, right? This is what's left after the defeat of the

miners' strike in the 1980s and the closure of the Collieries and the failure to transition those jobs into something else equally meaningful and well-paid and secure. What is it that replaced the Collieries? The Amazon distribution center, right? Just complete shit. You can look at it as a story of defeat or you can look at it as a story of resilience. I think it's both those things at once. And you're in that crowd you're like I am a part of something so much bigger than myself and it was very much a setting where I was like not in any position of prominence I wasn't on a stage I wasn't giving a speech I was just there to experience it be a part of it and it was incredible and it's like why would you want to give that up

there is there is no amount of money or security in the world that could make me want to give up that feeling of what it means to be surrounded by my brothers and sisters and struggle nothing could make me want to give that up do you not think that though that's an amazing feeling right solidarity etc but you have more economic security now and it's like there is the it's almost the luxury of not having to give that up i i don't know i think i think i feel like i've that's like that was that's those things that you're talking about the beautiful values beautiful wonderful story about solidarity and hope and working together all of that and there's loads of people who do that and but i also think you have such a strong sense of purpose and you now have the economic reinforcement from your from that purpose because it's worked out really well for you and you like

do this job and you get paid well across the board for it and people value what you have to say both on the left but also commercially like you've got this great book deal um and i can't wait to read your book by the way out next year i think february 2025 was it january 2025 let's just plug that quickly i think it's gonna be february february 2025 let's just plug that with bloomsbury but there is that reinforcement there and i could i could probably try and plug into that reinforcement do the same but i'll be honest ash i don't have the stones the way you do and i also do want to relate this to other people because i know lots of people our age are like am i doing the right thing with my life am i doing the right job and it's like am i exploring the options i

could explore should i you know go on sabbatical and travel no because i can't afford to take an unpaid sabbatical there's so many things i want to do and i feel like i can't do them and that i'm i'm sort of just wasting the talents i do have and not able to fully commit to anything properly um and not really like i'm always like i need to be a value i need to be a value i don't feel like i'm a value anymore and i don't know what it is i could do to to get better at the stuff that i'm already doing or where i can find the extra training because i'm like should i do like a master's on the side no i can't afford that it's a waste of fucking time should i be i don't know doing training elsewhere there's never any time there's never any time i'm clearly having like a

small breakdown as i'm talking, but this plagues me on and on again, these circular thoughts over and over again about how do I get money? How do I pay for these things? How do I upskill? I want to learn to drive because I think if I can drive, not only is it like the luxury of being able to take like holidays and drive around, but I mean like I can drive to see people, to report. I can become a self-reliant reporter, see people to report i can become a self-reliant reporter but i can't do that and it's all these i have all these obstacles in my way that i both invent but also are very real yeah and and look that that's a reflection of real things that's a reflection of real financial limitations and look i i completely agree with you like i am economically stable right like you

know i'm commercially validated for the work that i do The thing that I want to say is that wasn't always and actually like the kind of origin story of like Navarra as an organization was like, you know, Aaron Bastani was working selling fruit and veg while doing a PhD and setting up Navarra. Like James Butler was doing like a lot of freelance copy editing. I was working in a pub. like James Butler was doing like a lot of freelance copy editing. I was working in a pub. We put whatever tiny amounts of money we had into like buying kit. We were like not, we were not a viable commercial organization for a really long time. We just weren't. And the thing that made us want to do it was a sense of purpose and a sense of going like, the media is so fucking shit,

we've got to do something different. And the thing that I'm trying to say is like, not to go, oh, money doesn't matter. Money matters so, so much. But if you're going to let money stand in the way of doing politics or not, nothing's ever going to change. And nothing would have ever changed throughout history.

And I guess this is why I just sort of say like nothing that's worth doing is gonna come easy. And like people have made much bigger sacrifices throughout history, ones which cost their freedom, ones which cost their lives. I thought about it when I went to Mexico City. Mexico is coming up a lot in this podcast. It was a really great trip. I learned a lot. Well, yeah, like the Zapatistas, but also I went to the house in Mexico City where Trotsky was killed. And before he was assassinated with an ice pick, there was an attempt on his life where someone made it into the courtyard and was firing a machine gun. And you can see all the bullet holes inside the house. You can see bullet holes on the external wall. And after that attempt on his life, they boarded

up all the windows. So for the final months of his life, he was living in the dark, trapped in this house, bullet holes in the wall. A rat. All right. It's horrible. It sucked. I don't think that Trotsky regretted being Trotsky, even when he was living in the dark.

I just need to say, I love that you use the Trotsky analogy, but I am not Trotsky and I will never, ever be Trotsky. I'm just a girly. This is the thing. Why not? I'm just a girly. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

Bullshit. I'm sick of the self-infantilizing nonsense. It's not self-infantilizing. You are not. I'm just, okay, I'm a nearly 30-year-old woman. It's actually self-infantilizing. I'm a nearly 30 year old woman who is very of the average

I don't want to just focus on me because I do want this to be relatable for people who are listening and the questions they have about their life and their choices and it's like we all need to make according to the parameters of fame culture that we have the five minutes of fame, not 15 anymore

five minutes, everyone runs their life like they're a micro celebrity now and i just i'm not trotsky i don't provide the same value that trotsky provides i'm just a person with a literally a podcast mic and you know a slightly public facing career but it doesn't mean automatic that i'm providing this value that we're talking about. I just wonder. I need to find a purpose. The Black Panthers were in their 20s, Moya. The Black Panthers were in their 20s. Yeah, they were doing shit. They were combining communities.

I'm not doing that. I just chat a lot. I just chat. I'm just a yapper. Look, look. One, I think that yapping is important. I don't think yapping is everything. I think yapping is important.

I think that yapping is a part of political education i think yapping is part of consciousness raising i genuinely believe this shit by the way i'm not just saying it like i do think those things and i also just think like stop stop calling yourself a girl stop calling yourself a child you are a woman with and with talents and skills just like everyone who's listening has their talents and skills and they might be different ones and i just think that if you go well mine aren't good enough to make any kind of change do you think that everyone who was part of the chartist movement was like super talented and like you know they all could sew everyone could sew back in the day like yeah everyone could sew like Like, I can't sew.

I did try sewing up some jeans the other day and it was a catastrophe. But, like, do you think they're all super duper talented? Okay, let me flip the question. How do you stop yourself getting your own way? Because I do have things that I want to do and I have projects I want to pursue. But again, every time I think about them,

then time comes up, money. I'd have to make significant changes in my life to allow space for them but you know you do you manage to do like your your side projects say michael managed to do his side projects how do you stop yourself giving in to the excuses oh i get in my own way all the time i get in my own way all the time I I genuinely like have struggled writing this book because I felt so paralyzed with the feeling that I can't do it and I'm too stupid and I don't know enough and I can't write and like you know the the self-doubt was like crushing like it it made me feel like completely immobilized and unable to do to do anything and like how how did I overcome it

I'm not sure that I did overcome it I think what happened was is that like you know um I had an editor who was like you just fucking have to do this and I had a husband being like you just fucking have to do this and like every time I've been like wailing like you know on the living room floor like poking me with a stick being being like, get up, right? You got to do it. So again, it's like, these aren't individual efforts. Like nothing is an individual effort. Nothing is an individual effort.

Everything is collective in some way. You exist. I mean, not to sound like, you know. You exist in the context. Kamala Harris. Yeah. You think you just fell out of a coconut tree? And that's phrasing.

I hate they've ruined that phrase now. Running for president has ruined that phrase like you exist in the context but it's like no you exist in the context of all the work and labor that everyone else is doing as well around you um so that's the first thing which is like i don't think i do get out my own way i've got people around me who fucking cattle prod me uh into action when i need it and that's why i'm trying to cattle prod you and i think that's also again like this isn't just about you it's about it's about listeners and how you feel a sense of purpose do you want to know the best advice i ever got what so i was 18 and i was crying in the university cafe uh i was crying because i felt overwhelmed i felt like i i wanted to do all this

political activism and i also had all my like uni work to do and i also just felt like i was like the least attractive person on the planet and no one was ever gonna fancy me and i was feeling it all at once my 18 and aaron bastani he's always coming up and bastani he he comes into the uni cafe and he sees me crying he hears me out and i'm talking about how i'm feeling overwhelmed and he listens to me and he does his little head cock that aaron always does like his little head cock duck lips and then he goes ash you're an instrument of history as time you started acting like it. I was like, fuck. And that's, and he wasn't saying that to me because it's just like, okay, you're like the shooting star, you're, you know, your

heads above everyone else. Aaron said that because he believes everyone is an instrument of history. And I realized that this is a like, you like cheaty lifestyle podcast but like all of you listening you are an instrument of history if you want to be and Moya you are not a girly you are an instrument of history I'm a womanly you're an instrument of history I'm an instrument of history okay well do you know what has come out of this discussion i am going to sell some clothes on vintage i'm like well the project i want to do um that might not be within my realms right now but you know what i'm going to take some pictures and sell some clothes on vintage and get some money so everyone if you could but i have these really amazing boots that i bought that don't fit me that are like pure

leather they're calvin klein off like a brand of calvin klein they're so beautiful so please visit my vintage store because i need someone to buy these beautiful boots so they need to go to a good home anyway that was my little plug for that i'm going to use this as an advertising platform so we'll have to put asa standards on this from now on no look just just the i think the last thing i want to say because i know i sound completely deranged but like you sound arranged i sound arranged no i think i sound i think i sound way more deranged than you um i think it's about people sometimes look at like being on the left as a burden or like, oh, it just takes so much out of me. And yeah, sometimes it does. I think if you're a human being and you're engaging with the images

of the genocide in Gaza right now, how can you feel anything other than disgusted depressed despairing you know that's that's a natural human response but I have felt a level of connection with people through my politics that I don't think I would have felt if I didn't have them. And they're not people who are all just like me. They're people who come from different backgrounds in all sorts of ways, different ages, different races, different class backgrounds, and this sense of mission and the arbitrariness of deciding that you're going to be a part of it. You don't get a sign from the heavens. You don't get three suns appearing in the sky to tell you that you're going to be a part of it. Like you don't get, you know, a sign from the heavens. You don't get like three suns appearing in the sky

to tell you that you're doing the right thing. You know, you don't always have Aaron Bassani swooping into the cafe, right? It's an arbitrary decision that you're making to be a part of it. But the level of connection that I've felt with people, you know, with my comrades, the love and affection and challenge and growth and all

that good stuff i'm not saying this um offhandedly because like people really do want to kill me right like like people proper want to murder me i think that like if the cost of doing this work was getting murdered i'd still think it was a life worth well lived yeah I mean I want to say that it's when I meet the people outside of my my bubble my particular left bubble who are on the left that that's when I feel most energized when it all just when I get to talk to people in general when I talk to people who are outside of the daily rigors of my life and connect with them whether it's about politics or something else it's like every conversation I have with a random stranger at the bus stop or in a taxi cab or when i'm just you know i was on a plane recently and the guy next to me just started talking to me he was really excited he was traveling with his mate and he'd

just come back from albania and then immediately was flying out to sarajevo because his friend was like should we just go it's really cheap and he told me an entire route i should take because he was half algerian across algeria for next summer when i'm traveling and that kind of connects just talking to people that's what gets me fired up that's what gets me going it's the london left that make me want to die and i'll leave it on that let's go to the next show we go to other people's problems i talk about my problems enough who's going to read out the first one should we do rock paper scissors can you see my hand yeah ready all right okay so one we've got to say how last so is it one two three yeah yeah exactly all right one two three papers i saw yours oh no but you came no i didn't

i can see i can see your hand i've got a. I could see it. I was doing scissors the whole time. There was no cheating. It wasn't cheating. I don't trust you more. Let's do it again. This is... All right, let's do it again. Let's do it again. Okay, I promise.

Ready? One, two, three. Rock, paper, scissors. Rock. Go. Oh. No, you're going after me. I'm not going after you.

I'm not. No. It's just a slip. This is bullshit this is anti-solidaristic you lost twice you lost twice okay okay you're ready out off you go well okay right well this is our regular segment i'm in big trouble this is where we address your dilemmas if you have a problem that we couldn't possibly make any worse, do send it to us at ifispeakatnavaramedia.com. What's the email address, Moya? ifispeakatnavaramedia.com.

On to dilemma numero uno. I have a friend who I've known for about three and a half years, and she's become one of my closest friends. Our lives have followed very similar paths. We've experienced similar things, experienced similar traumas, have very similar interests. Sometimes it feels laughable how similar our experiences have been. She's the person I feel I can share my deep and dark thoughts with and I know she'll always be there for me no matter what. In many ways, she's my sister and we often refer to each other in this way. However, when we spend time together, I can't help but compare my life to hers. She's smarter than me and has her life more together than me. Some further context, we're both trans women, so inevitably I find myself comparing our transitions.

For example, she's had this surgery, she's more beautiful, she has less body hair than me, etc, etc. I don't feel any romantic sexual feelings towards her, but the best way to describe it is that I'm platonically in love with her. I've always been ride or die with my friends and I don't particularly think that's a bad thing. Even so, I find myself wondering if there is a toxic side to this friendship that isn't constructive or healthy.

My question is, how would you recommend ways to avoid comparing myself to her? Is this just a part of female friendships that I just have to learn to navigate? Or is this a sign that this is no longer a good relationship for me i can't ever imagine my life without her but equally it doesn't feel sustainable to be comparing myself to her constantly any advice would be appreciated ps feel free to give me your most delulu takes xo delulu takes that is the moya bat signal if ever i saw one excuse me do you not think all my advice is grounded in rational and objective uh experience um um you read it out you know the

rule if you read it out you're the one who's got to give the advice first that's how it works i suppose the question of how do you stop comparing yourself to someone's really difficult because I think I used to compare myself a lot to my friends. And then the magic ingredient was time. I got older and I had more in my life that was just mine and wasn't always in the same shared context as my friends. just mine and wasn't always in the same shared context as my friends and so I was like okay well how can we be comparing ourselves to each other because here are the things that make us so different so even though there are these things which were the same which is we're the same age we're cisgender women we're going to be out in contexts where people are going to be comparing us particularly on desirability you know it's still the case that these friends of mine are more conventionally attractive than me or that like if we are just like out in the wild they'll be getting approached more than me and that's fine because there are these things which I'm like well we're just we're

just different and those differences um take take the I guess the value judgment that might be made within the comparison. I suppose the things I'm curious about is that, you know, the special one here said that you're both trans women, so you find yourself comparing your transitions. She's had the surgery. She's more beautiful. She has less body hair than me. I wonder if time might be a missing ingredient, right? Like I don't know where you are in terms of your transition. I don't know how long it's been since you've started transitioning, but I wonder if with a bit of time, you'll start to view your choices as your own rather than being a step on a journey where you're either further along or further behind than other people and you'll be able to really own your decisions and feel that they're the right ones for you but yeah what do you think i i mean i actually think like where someone is on their journey on transition have you

want to refer to that is actually kind of irrelevant here what this is about is self-esteem um this dilemma is about your self-esteem and the fact you have low self-esteem and i don't think that this is a toxic friendship for you you talk about how this is the person that you feel totally comfortable with and totally at home with and i think it wouldn't matter who this was that you had this really deep relationship with, whether they had the exact same experiences as you or not, whether they were also a trans woman or not. I think you would find yourself comparing your life and your decisions unfavorably to them

if they were close to you like this, because I think you have low self-esteem. And I think that is where this is coming from. because I think you have low self-esteem and I think that is where this is coming from because the moments when I find myself comparing my existence my choices the way that I am unfavorably to the people I love most in this world uh the women around me who are like my sisters is when I'm having my my self-esteem is bottoming out for whatever reason. And that's when I look around being like, oh, she gets so much attention. Oh, she signs this so easy. She does this and that. And where my self-esteem is robust and, you know, I've rebuilt that foundation of like,

no, you're enough. You're likable. You're, you know, you have value. Hilarious after what I've just discussed. You have value in various ways. That's when i'm like you know what her life is her own the experiences she has is her own it doesn't reflect on me like the the way she's received in the world it's not like an unfavorable thing if i'm received

differently there's obviously things you can take like traits you can see in a friend for example if a friend is someone who is very soft and very kind uh and you think that that's a trait you want to cultivate more then you can cultivate that trait but it shouldn't be out of a place of punishment for yourself in the idea that you're not you're not good enough or you're not as you haven't got you aren't you aren't worth enough as your friend because you haven't had x surgery or-surgery or you your life isn't as together as you put it. This is a self-esteem thing and I think when you say

time ash what you actually might be talking about is that you've talked about in the past that your self-esteem has got much more robust and I wonder if it's not the time as much but the self-esteem over time that has actually changed the way you relate to your friends. I don't have a cure for low self-esteem again that is something you have to cultivate within yourself but i don't think you

should give up this friendship this friendship reflects about it reflects well on your love ability as well and your value because this amazing person values you in the same way this amazing person probably feels the same way about you in that you know you're their sister like you're her sister you are the person that she also shares her deep dark thoughts with you have this these similar experiences it's like you have similar interests you you have this shared love and you need to look at it the other way it's like she has come to you for a reason as well and that's because you're that person for her like you are someone who has that value for her and you need to start feeling that way about yourself and building up your own robustness but yeah i think this is a self-esteem problem

as opposed to a specific problem with this relationship and i think that one of the things to point out is that like there's this amazing essay which was about the way in which beauty comes into female friendship and this feeling that like you know you might be you but she's a gazelle you know like and the way in which um female beauty is always compared and always ranked and that you've got this dynamic about how you relate to the ways in which you're being looked at and you've also got this thing of like, oh, do I want to be you? Do I want to be with you? This like huge intensity of attraction, which might not always be sexual, but it's like this magnetism that exists between you. And so I think rather than seeing that as a

problem to be solved, it's a kind of paradox and dynamic to be managed. You know, I just, I just don't think that that ever fully, fully goes away. It's just, you become more robust in being able to deal with it. It doesn't knock you off your feet so much because this is where I'd sort of like push back a little bit, which is like, you know, has my self-esteem changed loads since I was younger? In some ways, probably. My sense of shame is outsized and I'm working on it with my therapist um you know the self-loathing is strong um but my my uh feeling of discomfort amongst my female friends that's really changed right my desire to compare themselves to compare myself with them has changed a lot even though i still sense i still feel a huge sense of

personal shame. So we can break into that fucking box of neuroses another day. Is there anything else that you want to say about this dilemma? Yeah, I just want to say the dilemma, right? You say you've always ride your die with your friends, you're platonically in love with her. You're giving all of the love that you wish you could give to yourself to your friends. And that doesn't mean there's a finite amount of love. It just means you need to start trying to, the way you think about your friends, you start trying to think about yourself like that. Because otherwise, this will curdle into resentment. Otherwise, it will curdle into, why is she better than me? There's poison in her voice. Because the line between love and hate is so thin. And if you

have low self-esteem, it eventually like curdles the ride or die though that's a great quality ride or die for yourself as well you there's enough to give out for everyone take it for yourself as well and i promise you you will start feeling less like you're constantly in this comparison with this woman and that you'll instead just feel like i love this woman and i love me and i love that we're friends because that's what's happened to me anyway so is it dilemma two should we do dilemma two let's do you got time for a quickie yeah i got time for a quickie god i'd love time for a quickie um right i not this fucking anyway what do i think i am carry on film good lord uh dilemma two i'm a 26 year old woman who

has just moved to london for the first time a week ago after landing my dream job i've been so excited to escape my hometown and unemployment which i've been subject to for over a year since coming back from traveling the reality of the big smoke is not what i expected it's been a week i'm extremely lonely i've moved into a flat of friends of friends and they very much keep to themselves, which is obviously fair enough, but just not what I'm used to or expected. I own 42k a year and my rent is 900, which I thought would be more than enough to feel comfortable, but I seem to be hemorrhaging money on nothing. Hey sis, it's me. I honestly don't know where it goes. I have a broken foot so can't cycle around and explore the city as I'd hoped. The tube is an obvious expense

and deters me. My flat is nice for a rental but has quirks that come with it. Things broken, old, smelly that will take some adjusting to. My room is extremely hot, which I know will be a blessing in winter. But in this heatwave, it's awful. And I know I should just buy a fan. But again, more money. Sod's law is as soon as I buy one, we'll go back to miserable cold weather.

So I'm putting it off. True that. My mental health in general is just a bit of a mess. I have a difficult relationship with my dad and he has severe heart failure. It's extremely difficult to navigate that. I'm deathly afraid of the impact of climate change, which is why I'm so happy to land this job,

helping to combat it in some way. And I have a confusing sense of self-worth. Sometimes I feel so good about myself, I worry it's inappropriate. Other times I hate myself and don't see the point in living and there seems to be in between. That is called big ego, low self--esteem I'm in therapy but again another cost I guess to circle back should I retreat to my comfortable little life in the shire in my mum's

house which I do love to an extent or should I brave it out here in East London and just hope things will get better do you have any advice for me to try and make this place feel more like home sort my life out thanks so much for reading love you both you've been there a week reader i love you tough love you've been there a week you've been there a week that's how i will start you've been there a week ash yeah a week is nothing of course you feel like shit everyone feels like shit when they move somewhere for the first time and everyone feels like i I don't know if I can do this. And everyone feels like, oh my God, like I need to retreat back to the cocoon. Look, there are some things which are very real and very painful and causing you anxiety. The stuff with your dad, of course, like you've talked about, you know, ongoing problems with mental health.

But there's also some stuff which is going to change, right? Your broken foot will heal. You will be able to cycle again. You will make friends with the people that you live with. You will feel a sense of belonging over time. And maybe even with all that belonging, you go, this isn't the right place for me. Maybe I want to live somewhere which is less busy, which is less anonymous, which is smaller. and that's completely fine. But make that decision in two years, right? Revisit your dilemma in two years, right? Week one, moving anywhere, you're going to feel depressed. Come back to it in two years. Yeah, there's not really much else to add. It is a case of acclimatizing. And only when you

acclimatize, as Ash ash said will you be able to tell if this is the place for you again with you've been there a week you've been there a week i can't say it enough you have been there a week um the friends of friends yeah people do tend to keep themselves to themselves in some houses at first you have to unfortunately try and break into that and that might work and if it doesn't i know the rental market is a mess but you can afford a 900 pound room so i'm going to say this with love you can move somewhere else um and find somewhere that you like more that is an option the 42k i get the hemorrhaging money i get it so much but i also will say you can live in london on 42k a year um the cycling will help the walking will help the foot is obviously a massive

problem right now as ash says that will heal you're literally immobilized you're literally immobilized you know you can't see everything it's okay don't try and fast track feeling at home it comes in you make a place your home by doing things like walking around learning the neighborhood slowly making friends i moved to london 11 years ago now 11 years it took me probably five or six years to start making the friends that built up the friendships i have now i didn't make my best best friends in london until i was 25 24 probably And I had great friends along the way, but it really takes time sometimes to find those people who will make the city open up for you. And you have to just keep trying, keep meeting people, keep going out. And right now you literally can't do that because

your foot is broken and you're settling into a new job and everything's changed. It's not just a new job. It's a new house. It's a new city for the time london is so big when i was in albania uh taxi driver was like one on the way to the airport actually was in corfu on the other side it was in greece when i was going coming back he was like they always ask where you're from and i was like lond i live in london because i'm not from london i live in london he's like it's so big so big and i came back and i was like fucking hell it's so big like in in a london alone it's so big so big and i came back and i was like fucking hell it's so big like in inner london alone it's three million people that's the size of scotland greater london is eight million people it is huge this is a massive city it's very overwhelming i come from

a shire too i get how big it is and i love the anonymity from day dot but you know at the age of 26 it might feel a bit different, especially if you've been traveling around making friends really easily. That's also a thing. You've been traveling. You're used to be able to just like slot into a hostel probably and make mates and just off the bat, that's not how it works here. This is a, this is a home. This will be a home to you. And it's a different way of going about stuff, but you can use those skills. Just don't expect it to come all at once you've got time i promise you you've got time um and come to oh i know come to our podcast recording come to our live podcast

recording in september 15th of september king's place we'll make you some friends come up and say hi and we'll get you some friends yeah oh my god that was such a neat segue um so i mean look we're gonna have to draw this podcast to a close but i do want to invite people to come to our live podcast recording because for various reasons i wasn't able to come to the live show uh at glastonbury because my sister was in hospital but she's out now terrorizing the streets once more um which means that i can participate in this one and I'm really, really excited about it. I'm also a little bit nervous. So please come. It's on the 15th of September at King's Place

and you can buy tickets online through the London Podcast Festival, I believe. And the King's Place site. Just go to King's Place or go to either one of our Instagram profiles or Twitter. If you have us on social media, we have links posted there we'd love you to come

it's going to be interactive and I can do some more Miss Connections maybe I'll do some Radical Connections who knows everything's to play for and we will have a guest

I believe we'll probably have a guest Busybody Busybody alright let's wrap it up let's wrap this up with a nice neat bow Who've you been?

Moyal Othian-McLean live and direct Ash Sarkar direct and live this has been If I Speak Bye! Who've you been? Moyal Othian-McLean, live and direct. Ash Sarkar, direct and live. This has been If I Speak. Bye!