If I Speak - 31: Why isn’t my best friend excited about my wedding?

Episode Date: September 24, 2024

Moya and Ash argue over a big theory about our need for surprise. Has modern life killed off spontaneity in everything from dating to holidays? Plus: advice for a listener who’s wondering why an old friend isn’t more excited to be his best man. We’re sorry about the uneven audio quality for part of the […]

Hello and welcome to another episode of If I Speak. I'm joined by Moya Lothian-McLean, still in London, clinging on by the skin of her teeth before she is ripped from our bosoms forever by the barbarous Scots. They're not barbarous. They're just stealing my podcast co-host. Moya, how are you doing? Not you insulting my brand compatriots before I've even moved. I'm doing well. Yeah, I mean, you say that I'm gonna be ripped away forever but I'm back in October and November I've got back I'm back so

much so uh it's not sadly people wish I'd be ripped away forever I'm doing well I'm packing I'm in the middle of packing and yesterday I packed by watching successive period dramas so I put three different period dramas on full-length films and just went to town on the packing which period dramas were they okay so I started with to ease me in my ultimate comfort watch Pride and Prejudice 2005 the Yearners the Yearners Mecca but the Ye end is mecca does that even work the yearn is totem it's my ultimate um then i watched mansfield park which i don't like it was the billy piper adaptation don't like mansfield park anyway because i think it's an annoying story and i hate edmund um but it was good background noise and then i was ready to lock in again so i watched

uh far from the madding crowd, the Carey Mulligan adaptation, which turned out to be really, really good. Have you seen Far From the Madding Crowd? You're a literature girl. Yeah, you know what? I'm not a Hardy girl, but I will watch it. Have you watched Shogun yet? No, no.

Oh, man. I think I might re-watch it because I was so obsessed with it when it came out and I was like, this is like a television masterpiece. And then I read the novel and now I'm trying to get my hands on all the books about Warring States period Japan.

Wait, is it a TV series? It is a TV series. This is just so beautifully put together. Oh my God. I can't watch TV series. I tried to start watching the OC and i just immediately skipped the bits i wanted to see i can't this is only 10 episodes you will be missing

out on a masterpiece of cinema if you don't watch it and if you don't watch it because it's a tv series that's the stupidest reason to miss out ever no it's it's just okay it links to your big theory slash entries of thought but my attention span is so bad that I find myself skipping a lot but maybe I'll put on when I'm packing because when I'm packing I don't skip put it on put it on it you will not regret it um what did we do at the weekend Moya um I ate a delicious delicious Vietnamese meal no we did a succulent vietnamese meal i went to the gym i you know i did loads of stuff i went to a party no we did a live show and it was fantastic oh my god it was fantastic were there any surprises for you i think it wasn't a surprise but I was once again floored by how empathetic and wise

and generous our audience were with just like their interactions and their advice their advice was so good I've internalized some of it I think we'll be putting out the live show as an as an episode so I won't ruin it but there was people who gave advice which sharp but you know when you're adding like bricks in a wall and it just added more bricks in my emotional wall of okay this is this is a big picture of a of the I guess the emotional landscape I want to exist in and the attitude I want to have and it was it was yeah it was just so so good planted new trees in your emotional landscape planted new trees exactly what about you anything surprise you um so i think i think for me one of my biggest takeaways was the same

as yours i was like fucking hell like we have an emotionally insightful audience like these aren't just yappers like maybe we're the dumbest thing about this podcast and actually we have like a much smarter audience um so that was really really lovely uh and we had a special guest we had the one and only yomi adekoke and she was fucking great like funny and candid and insightful um everything you want from a guest and i i guess the thing I was a bit surprised by with her is that I thought that she would want to talk about her book and her projects a lot more. And she was clearly drawing from that, but she was so in the moment and she was so engaged with the specifics of what was being discussed, which is kind of rare for someone who's got two books under their belt,

making a TV show. Normally they want to bring everything back to the project but she was very much like no I'm here to listen to what's in front of me and respond to that thing which I really really liked yeah I have a I do have an actual request from the audience of special ones I got really excited on stage and the result was I do have pen on my suede skirt so if anyone knows the best way to get pen out of a suede skirt i think i'll dry clean it but i'm i just want to crowdsource before that happens because i would love to get this pen out it's brand this suede skirt was a great find i i did a classic me thing by drawing pen all over it i'm really annoyed at myself anyway i've got some questions for you yeah i need to be asked questions high inquisitor okay would you rather be in a companion marriage where you're not in love

but you're companions or would you rather be single for the rest of your life companionate marriage you're the ultimate wife guy you're the wife of a wife okay explain why uh the reason why is because i can't stand being alone um by which i mean like living alone i'm not just talking about like being single It's the sort of like living with someone and having someone be very, very enmeshed in your life. So yeah, I think of the two that... Also, like I think that there's an interesting thing here about like the idea of like permanent romance in a lifetime partnership is relatively new. The idea that you'd get everything from from one uh relationship is like super brand new um so i think i'd go for that maybe that's not psychologically healthy what about you i think

you'd stay single obviously obviously i would rather stay single for the rest of my life um because i'm sure i could find like a classic commune situation or how if I wanted that companionship then I would I think I'd do the Victorian you know my companion for life my whatever and I think I'd want to move somewhere the way everyone's around me but I would rather stay single than be in a official relationship where we were just companions I think but I don't know I haven't reached an age where maybe that doesn't matter as much well I mean I guess the thing is is that you said companionate and loveless and I think those are maybe two different things no but I said you're

not in love I didn't say there wasn't love there okay not in love I said not in love um I've been in that relationship where you're companion and you're not in love and I don't think i don't know but maybe as i get older that becomes more attractive well the thing is it's not i mean it's not attractive right it's like you know that's a marriage that's serious shit it's not just like you're hanging out it's a marriage yeah yeah like i suppose i'm also thinking about like toxic power couples right there's a lot you can get from a marriage which isn't love power is one of them um so yeah i don't know next question next question this itself could be like a an intrusive thought big theory so let's move on that's the best questions uh what's your favorite

room in your house and why favorite room my house is the kitchen um and the reason why is that when we moved in, the previous owners left this massive table there, like a huge, huge, long wooden table made of like Brazilian wood. And the reason why they left it is that they couldn't get it out the house again because they had to like cut it up and like remove the windows to get it in and they just couldn't be asked to do it. windows to get it in and they just couldn't be asked to do it. So we've got this like huge long table, which is both like a kitchen island and really useful for cooking. And also just such a lovely space for like gathering everyone around. Um, like it is a cliche, but every cliche is true. Heart of the home kitchen. I have this with my super King bed mattress, which I, when it came in, I said, I'm'm never if i ever move out i'm never moving this out again and uh only a year later did i move out and it is not coming with me it is staying in the room i'm not moving that fucking thing out with me thankfully they kind of wants the super king

bed but i'm not taking it with me anyway uh last question who's your nemesis i've never done this before i refuse to answer no do you have a nemesis that says you have a nemesis i have so many nemeses i have so many nemeses really um but the i i have made a vow with myself to not utter their names or make reference to them outside of, you know, only two or three people in this world know who my nemeses are. And I won't even allude to the circumstances which made them my nemeses because that would give them power over me it would give them power over me because I can't let them know how much I think about

them wow I mean are your nemeses people that are on a par with you both like intellectually and career wise because I always think the nemeses should be a bit otherwise it's like fuck we're just going bar for bar no they're absolutely not and that's because people who actually are like moving in the same career

world as me like can't they don't bother me because actually like the the status in that world doesn't bother me at all it has to be some kind of personal wrong hmm yeah I don't have a nemesis I used to but I don't you don't have a nemesis no I don't my nemesis is myself what would happen if we became nemeses do you think um you would destroy me using your quote to eat function I think you destroy me with your fucking insight I thought I would just be like no way she knows too much no also that's not how I would behave the nemesis with a nemesis the only nemesis I ever considered being a nemesis um once came to me for advice and then they were humanized in my eyes and I just jettisoned them

as a nemesis because I was like this is a real person with like real problems and it's actually so not worth having them as a nemesis and it's also I kind of I subscribe to your theory which is you don't want this person of power over you and the ultimate power is caring is giving a fuck what they're doing and what they think and so by letting go of the nemeses i i win that's the thing is that like i feel like i can't let go i need to become more psychological psychologically healthy every time i stop talking on this podcast i'm like yes what a fucked up person you are i need to be able to let go but i i can't and i don't so instead what i do is i publicly act like i've done so where it was inside i reread the book of imagined slights it's my bedtime reading but i know we have to move on but you're half the way there letting go in public

like a lot of this stuff is going through the motions until you really realize you don't care until you really have got through something and if you in public at least are being like no it doesn't matter it's all of this i went through that loads i remember my ex was pissing me off all the time and then i just kept being like it's fine it's you you have to i call it the opposite action so sometimes like you know they will do something or say something and you just have to be like keep you want to react I call it the opposite action. So sometimes like, you know, they will do something or say something and you just have to be like, you want to react in a certain way and then you go, no, actually,

the high road is to do this, to do this. And you say, you know what? It doesn't matter. I don't mind. That is their business. And even inside you're like, I fucking want to crush them. I want to crush them.

You just keep saying that in public. And eventually I do think that becomes internalized. You're like, I don't need to crush them because You just keep saying that in public. And eventually I do think that becomes internalised. You're like, I don't need to crush them because time is a great healer. And so long as your public behaviour is not to act on your worst, most revengeful impulses, then I think your private can match up and you just keep telling yourself that. It's practice. And then you become very zen and you're just like, it's fine.

And that doesn't mean sometimes when you hear their name, you're like, oh, that prick because that's normal it's just not acting in a way that pulls you into a maelstrom of drama yeah that's the thing that's the thing is that like actually with my nemeses there's no drama about it right like they wronged me and i never i never engaged with it like they wronged me i never engaged with it i Like they wronged me. I never engaged with it. I just, I'm like a Pokemon whose superpower is absorb. But she's like absorbed and didn't express any emotion about it whatsoever.

Also probably not healthy, but should we move on? I have a big theory for you. Wow. This is like two big theories in a row.'re back on the big theories autumnal philosophy i know that's the thing is that actually once the days get shorter than the nights i can start thinking again whereas before that i'm just like barbecue yeah just um warmth just like like a dog smelling sausages on the air i'm just just like, yes. All right. I'm locked in.

Right. So my big theory is this. It's that we've become as a culture, as a generation, suspicious and wary of being surprised. Now this started out as a big theory, which was only about dating culture. And then I realized that maybe it applies to all sorts of aspects of how we live. And what I think it comes down to is this, which is that technology, the promise of knowing nearly everything about nearly everything has made us wary of just finding out stuff as we go in real life, right? Walking the path, turn a corner, new information makes itself available to you. turn a corner, new information makes itself available to you. So as long time special ones will know, I am very, very anti-dating app. And I understand why people have to use them. They've changed the overall context in which people date, but I think whether you're on them

or not, dating apps have made romance worse in almost every way. And one of the ways in which it's made romance worse is that it has taken out one of the big uncertainties of meeting someone, which is the question, oh, do you fancy me or are you just being friendly? So think about it. Embark on the thought experiment with me, Moya. Let's say I'm at a mutual friend's birthday party and i meet you gorgeous smart funny moya for the first time wait have we swapped um sexual

orientations for this yes yes yes yes yes all right we don't have any we don't have enough queer representation on podcast so we're making it up okay this is me i'm in my queer baiting era um all our queer listeners we will our queer listeners, we will have queer representation soon. We will have queer representation, but until then, it's just ashes. Hypotheticals. Okay, go on.

It's just my hypotheticals. All right. But we're talking loads and we dance together. There's a nice amount of eye contact. And before the next thing happens or doesn't, one of us has to be the first to cross the bridge

without being 100% sure of what's on the other side and that bridge is that question of like does this person fancy me or do they not fancy me and like crossing that bridge like can mean a range of things like it's not always kissing sometimes it could be asking for a way to keep in touch or even just like sort of saying like oh i think you're really fit or like whatever right but you're kind of having to like cross a bridge without knowing what's on the other side of it in terms of reciprocity but when you meet up with someone who you've matched on an app it takes away that uncertainty and that not knowing because you know you're both there because at the very least you find each other attractive on a superficial level and you're both there for the same reason which is that you're

open to something romantic or sexual happening right and those are the two big uncertainties with meeting someone in real life right meeting someone like serendipitously um and it's interesting because a lot of my straight male friends say that what the apps do is that it takes away an uncertainty about their advances being unwelcome and they go, well, at least I know I'm not being a creep because men have at least learned a bit more about violating someone's boundaries or sense of personal space or the discomfort with imposing the fact that you fancy someone on someone else and matching someone on on the apps takes that away um and i understand that and i understand how that's a good thing

but there's also an element of like be careful like be careful what you wish for because i think that period of not quite knowing whether or not someone fancies you back might actually do something good um because during that period of not knowing, the uncertainty, the risk that it might not go right, there is a sense of magnetism and attraction because we all know that peril, a little bit of agony, it sweetens the sauce. It makes it piquant, right? It makes you feel kind of alive of alive um and so yeah mating dating making dating not mating dating although that was a Freudian slip making dating more accessible um doesn't necessarily mean it's been made better um and like I said like I do think being in that position of

not knowing of discovering something because you're moving from not knowing to knowing that is when you feel like alive and alert to the world. But it is so much bigger than dating. And I was thinking about my own behaviour. I don't just pick a random restaurant. I read through vittles. I read the reviews on Google. I look at the menu. I know what to expect when I walk into the place. I literally know what I'm going to get. I'm the worst for reading about the plots of films and TV shows before I watch them. If I'm going on holiday, I do lots of research and then I make a food and drinks map so that if I'm in a city, there is this map and there are all these little data points of where I'm going to go.

And there are all these little data points of like where I'm going to go. And it makes the space for chance, for serendipity, for surprise, just smaller, right? I'm not saying it makes surprise impossible, but it makes the space in which that can happen so much smaller. And I think that we foreclose possibilities that we're not even aware of. And more than that, the idea of going well find out as you go is scary and anxiety inducing whereas i think for maybe previous generations that was just what you had to do because you didn't have the option of knowing everything before you did it yeah and they had a lot more shit meals

there's a reason that fast food uh became so big in those areas because you're just ducking into mcdonald's being like this is the most delicious food ever okay well guess what i want to go to because it's on my little map it's good um sorry ash do you still have bits to go because i have lots of no what do you reckon what do you reckon okay i partly agree with things you were saying. I disagree somewhat with your, uh, diagnosis of the thing, which is that we don't want to be surprised. I think that is in there as an element, but what you were saying about, you know, people prefer meeting on dating apps for X, Y, Z. I don't even think it's that reason. Like my friends and me would all rather meet someone in real life and crossing the bridge is not the issue there are so many bridges at parties when I do occasionally you know in the very rare occasions

I meet someone um and we clearly fancy each other it's so easy to get their number or vice versa like I'll be in a pub and it's a very casual thing they'll just like I'll take your number I'll take your Instagram that's not the issue the issue is the follow-up the issue is taking it to the next stage the issue is seeing each other again after the initial kiss, exchange of details, all of that. So I don't think it's that people prefer dating apps because of the surprise. I think there's a couple of things going on here. And it differs slightly depending on whether it's looking for a restaurant or whether it's going on a date and meeting someone. However, underlying, I think there is one particular approach and principle that kind of underpins it

a mindset if you will i think with dating um it's more about reputation and protection of ego i think nowadays we are so we have we have the panoptic comes in our head right the and it's all like what's it called it's called it like scopic capitalism everything about visuals everything's about reputation everything's about how like we look but also how we perceive to others and all we kind of have left is our reputations and pride and ego has become one of the brand management as you call it the brand has become the all-encompassing thing so I don't think with with dating it's uh you know we're afraid of being surprised and we want to know how it maps out I think it's more to do with there's there's something there within with just ego like you're

trying to protect your ego and no one wants to make the second move or put themselves out there or you know me and my friends were talking about this the other day it's really funny no one calls it going on a date anymore my friend told an anecdote where she went in and saw her housemate and the person they'd been on a date with and the person said oh we just want a date and my phone's like oh my god I haven't heard anyone be willing to call it a date while on the date for so long because what we do is call it a hang oh do you want to hang out meet up no it's a hang it's a hang ash now it's a hang it's a hang out i always say if you want to hang out let me know shall we do another public hanging shall we hang again yeah public hanging because people can't even put themselves forward to call it a date because that would be putting too much on the line

ego wise that's too much at stake so i don't think it's about not wanting to be surprised people want to be surprised all the time they want to be surprised by the person in front of them they want to be surprised by you know a magical experience that happens they want to be surprised by they want to trip into a little restaurant on the day and discover this amazing place but they don't leave it a chance because if you leave it to chance you might end up having a shit time with a person that you don't enjoy but this but this is what i mean this what i mean which is that like people want to be surprised and they want to be surprised and they want to have these like authentic experiences but they're scared of the risk involved the right

i think it's like the loss of face or it might not go right or like it might not yeah but i don't think that's a prize i think that's something else i think that's again reputational damage they're scared that yeah if anything if things just don't go well we've somehow to internalize that into being a comment on ourselves and uh bruised to our ego even it's like it's fine if you the pub shit like it's not it's not the end of the world of a pub shit it's not the because we have all these things that we like have to go right have to be the best there's a best mentality and there's been a lot of articles written about this and i think they did it master of none as well which is why we make these big

lists of restaurants we want to have the best experience possible because we know it's possible now. We know it's out there to have this optimized experience at all times. And this is where it applies to food. And this is where it applies to dating. But I think there's the thing, the other couple of things in it where it's like you skip ahead because I'm a really bad person for skipping ahead and wanting to read the Wikipedia halfway through a film or, you know, find out what the end of the book is. We have a lack of patience because our little brains are used to moving 20 million miles an hour. We have a lack of patience, but it's all about investment. I think there's a capitalist ideology undermining this, which is we don't want to invest in things that won't give us profit or give us the return on our investment. I think we're worried about sinking to the sunk

cost policy. We talk in terms of economics, like transactions, it's like, you know, they, I don't know, meeting you in the same way, like you getting what out, what you're putting in, like it's all about investment and we're worried about investing energy, emotions, time, all of these things without getting them back. And that's why we want to have the best. That's why it's got to be the best. So it's like, if if you invest the stuff you'll get this return on it um and with dating because it's so unpredictable and so hard to do you can't make lists of people you can but it's weird you can't make lists of people like that with stars by them ranked the way you can with restaurants but you can do that with restaurants you can do that with like i don't

know venue a club night all of that you can gather the data but with people there's none of that stuff you can do well no i think yes and no right because in a way the apps do a lot of that sorting for you no right like well i mean like in in terms of like like i'm not saying it's actually good right but there are there are criteria like invisible criteria right algorithmically determined which like select for like what you're seeing and like how often and when all right um and that's for the benefit of the app it's not for the benefit of you just like fucking like put that down because um i think it's always really important to remember that these apps are not designed for you to not need them anymore.

Because then they wouldn't need to exist. So there's that. The second thing is that I think that, you know, again, talking about the way in which we're not always the best judges of like what's good or like our own desires or like what we actually want. And also what the apps do is they sort of it flattens people and then i think people like adjust how they present themselves so that they're part of a type right so they stand out just enough but like not so much that it looks weird right and there's a sort of like you know self-branding exercise about calibrating like how you appear um so that you you know you're like well if I make myself attractive in these ways then I can attract a certain kind of person right like all these

things are like judgments which are being made as you're doing it um and I also think that there's that you know I remember talking to a friend about this and I was just like why don't you like I was like look you you you on the one hand are like talking about like really wanting to like you find a really meaningful connection but on the other hand like what you're doing is mostly meeting people through the apps and like what if there's a contradiction then she's like what look at least i know they fancy me right like that's not true people are wrong sorry go on right but that is wrong that is wrong it's well, no, what you know is that they found your profile attractive enough to warrant this.

But that's not the same thing as fancying you. Like, I met up with so many people, like, you know, from the apps when I was on them, that I just, like, didn't actually fancy. I was, like, looking at these pictures, totally unmoored from any of the things that make me fancy them. And, like, was like, well, there we go. so i think that there's like a flawed assumption there but there's also a desire i think like you said to like protect yourself so you go well because because being single can involve feeling like a lot of vulnerability right especially being single and wanting not to be

right that can involve so much vulnerability like you want to cut out this like element of risk and like uh one layer of like one layer where you can possibly be rejected yeah again i agree with all that and but i do also want to wind out to the things you're talking about like food like restaurant hunting traveling's a really good example of this um like you said and like movies and stuff because i don't think the surprise is the the key thing like you lasered on a surprise we don't want to be surprised i think people do want to be fucking surprised but i think they also want to optimize scared to be it's not about scared i think we want to optimize our time i do think in places like dating where it's a vulnerability there's a fear factor that comes in. But I think with like traveling and food and movies, it's about time optimization. And it's about partly because every moment has

to be like lived as if you're making a vlog, uh, what I did in a day. And it's, it's almost for the public consumption. There's an, I don't, I don't mean this for every single person, right? There are lots of people who don't do this, but I do think for lovers, there's a mindset of like, if my life was a movie, I'm the main what would it look like blah blah blah and you've got this thing of I've got I've got a friend who like beats herself up if she's not doing enough and it's like what is enough lie on your couch it's great to lie on your couch I love lying on my couch I I romanticize almost everything in my life because it's just like I'm living life and I love the fact I get to be alive for a bit. Who knows how long it lasts. Walking down the street, I'm like,

this is great. This is great. Even when I'm sad, I'm like, this is great. I'm feeling things. I'm alive. And that's a really annoying mindset for a lot of people. But it's one that I found kind of counteracts this idea that I have to optimize everything and be the best for everything. And I have these conversations in my head where it's like, you know, there's a restaurant I really like and I want to go to again. And I'm like, that's boring. Why don't you try this new restaurant? Why don't you go into this new place? I'm like, it's fine. I have to talk myself down. I'm like, it's fine. Who are you performing that for? Who are you trying to perform that for? Why aren't you going somewhere that you really enjoy and that you love and

building up that relationship with this one place that was special to you? That's a good thing to do. Like do it for yourself. Don't do it for the imagined audience in your head. And I think this optimization culture of, I don't want my time wasted and I want to be living a life that's as exciting as possible. It's why you get people going and traveling the world who are so clearly not getting fucking anything from it beyond that they've ticked off a bunch of countries. There's not a thinking behind, why do I actually want to do this? They might not even be posting it on Instagramed off a bunch of countries there's not a thinking behind why do i actually want to do this is it for the they might not even be posting it on instagram but a lot of them are but i think there's like an there's a mental there's a mental social media audience in their

head there's a mental idea of what a good life looks like and people are desperate to find out that their investment's worth it they're desperate to find out if this film is worth it if this restaurant is worth it if this like is this person and the person thing is slightly separate because i think the motivations are slightly different because it's mixed up with a lot of like you know classic ego uh fear of rejection all of that stuff but it's they want to we want to speed run and try and find the most efficient optimized way of living this good life living the life that looks good particularly not just feels good but looks good so a lot of people don't stop to work out whether it's actually good for them they're just like

I've seen this restaurant's good I've seen this movie is good I want to find out as quickly as possible I'm not enjoying it there's no capacity as well to like feel uncomfortable or difficult or bored emotions there's just like it has to be on at all times it's got to be constant like good good good good good rather than just like this is I'm a bit bored at the moment and also the other thing that comes in is like obviously phone addiction like if you're bored in the middle of a movie we just pick our phones that's why you often end up googling the movie because you're just picking up your phone out of habit and that's the thing in front of you so you just end up looking it up and going on it I think there's lots of different factors I don't think it's

just surprise but I do think the optimization culture comes into it quite a lot it's funny it's funny like my um my partner is like kind of an optimizer and also not it really depends on mood he's in so like sometimes we'll be like out and he'll be like the restaurant has to be like above these stars like on like google reviews and i'll be like fucking hell i was like i'm starving please just a carbohydrate my kingdom for a carb and sometimes I'll be like, fucking hell. I was like, I'm starving, please. Just a carbohydrate, my kingdom for a carb. And sometimes he'll be like, Ash, live beyond the algorithm. We have to live beyond the algorithm. Just walk around. And then again, I end up hungry because we're walking around for ages. Um, cause humans oscillate. Whatever way this goes,

I am hungry and underfed. Why aren't you picking the restaurant? Oh no, because I, I, i i uh i actually i'm a creature of habit i fucking love a familiar place and i'll like happily happily go to the familiar place yeah yeah i mean look it's relationships are compromised um he has had to compromise many a thing in order to be with me um but like it's a it's an interesting one because I don't think he's scared of like his taste being maligned in some way or like, you know, his taste being seen as not good. But I think that he's somebody who's like, well, what does it mean to live the best possible life? Whether that's having optimized it or whether that's having been like, okay, I'm going to like get rid all of these algorithmically determined constraints of my behavior. He's always thinking, what is the best way for me to live my life? Whereas I'm just like, well, if the world's philosophers couldn't crack that nut,

I'm probably not going to try. I think that's my approach. I'm like, I'm just not really going to think about that that much. And I'm going to be a a bit more gut led. But yeah, but this is what I mean. I think it sounds like your husband and I are quite similar in the sense that we're constantly oscillating between the 4.5 stars or above. And then put the phone down and enjoy the nature around us. Feel the awe inside. That's a good life. But it's, I think it's a search for like meaning and purpose and

authenticity and you can't help, but try and pick up the tools that you've been told will equip you for living like the best life. And when it comes to stuff that can, can be sorted easily, like you can't sort the experience of, okay, two different, two different types of like experiences that give me pleasure. One is eating a really good meal. Um, and by that, for pleasure one is eating a really good meal um and by that for me what makes a really good meal is like it's so cliche it's classic I want to be like an authentic setting that's not trying too hard so I don't want to go to fucking like Bancon or Banconia I don't know how to pronounce it or Agloria's because that's like like the food is apparently like can be average and you're really going for the name. But what's the difference between that and me going to this amazing,

I won't say the name of it because I don't want you guys to fucking deluge it the way that you have done. Let's pretend it's Roti King. Let's pretend it's Roti King because Roti King is already queues for an hour out the door. So I can't fuck that one up um so if i'm going to like roti king like a tiny little restaurant that makes like this amazing food and it's now huge on tiktok for those exact reasons where it feels more authentic it's like is there really that much of a gap between these things it's just a gap in taste and what appeals to me and what appeals to say a friend who really wants like the glamorous experience of going to a glorious where it's all about the aesthetic as opposed to like the pasta but i'm at the roti king because I'm like well it's all about you know it's still

aesthetic I'm still going for the aesthetic and I'm still going for like and it's more scrubby so I feel like it's more authentic there's this stuff there around it but that's one pleasure experience and I can find that through Google I can find the places I like by sifting through Google reviews and looking at pictures on holiday I don't think I think I've had like two bad meals from too many holidays. Like I've had a lot of holidays this year. And I think I've had two bad meals in that time because I have a tried and tested method of Google, which is a mixture of reviews and photos. Like the photos tell me, is the environment what I want? And is the food the kind of thing I want? And then I look at like the prices, the price point, whether the menu's got this English translation, because often that

means it's shit. Like I have this tested method and that's one way I get a really pleasurable experience when that delivers. I'm like, yes, nailed it. Another way I get a really pleasurable experience and think that I'm living like the best life is when, for example, I don't know, I've walked to a massive hill and I just see a beautiful view and you can't Google review that in the same way. You can't, you can't and you can't google review that in the same way you can't you can't you can't google review that you can't optimize that that experience is not something that you can like track down you just have to literally grace of god go i and often if i go to like a restaurant the more reviews the better uh i don't know a mosque in turkey the

more reviews the more like i have to stay away because i think the tourist path is so well trodden there that i'm not going to enjoy it because it's not going to appeal to my sense of like faux authenticity or being able to have like this more experience that's more original it's never going to be original but an experience that i can have like within myself reacting to this stimulus as opposed to just like having to tread the tourist path so tightly because it's so set out for me it's so established taking pictures the Eiffel Tower is a good one you know like go to the Eiffel Tower you know exactly what the Eiffel Tower is how you're meant to react to it what you're meant to feel all of that so you don't feel anything you just feel fucking numb

a lot of the time no but then I wonder I wonder if it comes back around again it does you know where you just go I'm going to do the touristy thing and i'm going to enjoy it right and you come back around and so like rather than feeling cold you're like actually like maybe if i just stop trying to be the fucking coolest boy on the beach for five minutes like i can enjoy something i mean i think there's an interesting thing here about tourism specifically which is like our age group and like level of education and like not having kids socially mobile underemployed graduates like i think that we all kind of want the same thing which is like we want to be in the know and we want our taste to be validated and we want to be seen as discerning we want to be seen

as like being able to turn away from like the super duper touristy things which in themselves like you know we present them as like virtues but also maybe in some ways they're not virtuous maybe actually it's better for all the tourists to be fucking corralled in one place we can't like trample over like where people are just living um and i think that there's something there about like you know you're looking for the perfect amount of google reviews and you're looking for the right google reviews um but there's a sort of, there's an irony, which is the minute you read in English where the locals go, you're like, ah, ruined. Like how dare you communicate this? No, I do. I do. See, I'm, I'm in the middle. Like when I went to the Eiffel tower, when I was up there, I was like, this is great, but I don't need to, I don't. And I had a picture in front of the Eiffel tower,

when I was up there, I was like, this is great, but I don't need to, I don't. And I had a picture in front of the Eiffel tower, but I'm also, it's, it's, there's a difference between like, no, make thinking that this Eiffel tower is like the epitome of my French trip. And that's like the pinnacle. Whereas the epitome of my French trip was when we went on a tour of like black history in Paris that that's like, and that's a different type of taste and uh what's the word um demographic profile I'm appealing to like that's speaking to the group that I'm within within the group I'm within that gives me um it shows yeah like you're saying it validates my taste but it's directly related to where I sit in society and who I talk to and who my friends are and that's like me saying that this is the pinnacle.

And this is the thing I enjoy most is, is because of the person I am and how I've been formed and all of that kind of stuff. I don't know. I guess I just, I just, I've had like some, some really shit experiences,

which have come from someone, sometimes me trying too hard to do something like kind of cool. So like, you know, the, the last holiday that I was on went to valencia for a bit um and obviously like august is like a very quiet time because if you're spanish you like get out like of the cities and you go somewhere else um and i was with my my partner and a friend

of ours who are both like super duper political and they were like oh we're gonna go to like this neighborhood that's why i like there are all these like squats and social centers and i was like i really just want to go to the touristy bit and like eat some fucking overpriced tapas and like drink an apple or spritz please and they're like no we've got to go there we like tramped around and like the heat of the day and like nothing was open so it was just like outside these like closed social centers for ages and i like lost it at them like i was just like why are you trying to do something really cool and rad? Just let me go to the fucking tourist place. Like,

I totally, but I totally agree with you on that. This again, because I'm like, I think I've optimized my travel. So when I go, I'm always having a great time. And it's,

you know, that's, that's such a like, that's the optimization culture speaking, but I really think I do. And I think what happened to you is you were doing something you didn't want to fucking do. Don't do things you don't want to do. This is a key part of it.

And it's like, okay, when I go on holiday with someone, now we have an agreement or like I'll make it clear before they go on holiday. If you want to do something and I don't want to do it, I'm not doing it. And if I want to do something, you don't want to do it. You don't have to do it either. We'll just go off and do our things. And also another thing is like, I've learned to listen to my instincts where, you know, sometimes there's a really cool rad proposition in front of me. Okay. We're going to go and do this. Uh, I don't know. We'll go on this tour of like this, uh, this radical bit, or, um, I'm going to go and walk around this radical bit by myself.

And if my gut says, no, I want to go on the beach, I go to the beach instead. And you have to be able to sift through what's like slight bit of fear and just like, I don't want to be embarrassed. And what is, no, I really just want to go and sit on the beach and I won't get anything out of this. Because once you've identified the difference in these feelings, you can actually enjoy these things a lot more.

Because there's some things like I really, I've thought a bit fearful of where I was like, for example, I was going to go on a tour when I was in Bosnia and I was just like a bit tired and also like oh I don't know is it going to be quite intense there's a fear of the unknown the fear of the surprise maybe I don't know but I was like no it'll be really good it'll be really good for me and I've the people who'd run the hostel I could just tell that this was going to be an amazing tour and it was the best tour I've ever been on in my life I learned so much it honestly life-changing also someone messaged me on instagram to say they've been on it recently and that it was fucking amazing and there's someone else at the hostel

who listens to the podcast as well so we're accidentally doing travel influence tour guides um but then another time there was like i could have gone and walked around i could have gone and walked through this fortress and i realized i didn't want to walk with this fucking fortress even though it was the main thing you're meant to do so i didn't go and guess what like i completely hear that but it's just fucking different when you're married to someone like you there is only a certain amount of like let's do things separately you can do like on a holiday like the the rest is negotiation what was the negotiation on his part for you what did he do that you want to do yeah yeah like a lot of the time it is because i fucking love sitting eating and drinking and then sometimes he's like can we do an activity now like you've

eaten seven pastries can we do an activity like it is it is a tea way compromise very much i would have just let him go with the friend i would have if it was a radical tour that he wanted to trace around and the social centers you were looking at was like sunday another thing is like where's the common sense sometimes it's like it's sunday in europe nothing's open don't get me so i've got a fucking anecdote from that holiday which maybe i'll say for a different episode um but like the common sense wasn't common sensing uh on that holiday but like it was also really lovely in its own way and look after i got my tapas and aporosprix I was much happier. The last thing I'll say about this before we move on to I'm in big trouble is,

I think that you're right. It's not a fear of surprise because people want to be surprised. It's that people fear the risk and the unknown-ness that being surprised entails. And I think that we like go back to these things which are like self-comforting or self-soothing in some way, which is like self-comforting or self-soothing in some way which is like looking at the reviews or dating through apps because it takes away that that bit of uncertainty about being rejected because you're worried about someone not fancying you people want to be overwhelmed but they're scared of being overwhelmed

you want to be swept away but you're scared of the loss of the loss of control and the loss of face uh that that entails the only bit that i really disagree is the dating apps i don't think people use dating apps because they're scared of being rejected people actually go on dating apps knowing thinking that this is going to be we're going to hit indifference again and again and again dating apps are so wearing like the whole culture on dating apps is knowing it's constant rejection from even matching with someone and not talking to them and it's it that's not why they're on dating apps on dating apps because the way people's lives are set up now is they feel more than ever they can't meet

someone in the wild and in the gap between meeting someone in the wild sometimes you do sometimes you do but when but most of the time people are like i'm looking at i'm trying to be actively looking i'm trying to be actively looking and going out that's why people on dating apps it's not because they're scared of being rejected I mean some people may I think it's both I think it's both I disagree like I'm not on a dating app because I'm scared of being rejected I'm on a dating app because it's like it's it's another little game on my phone but some people are some people are and I know it because I have spoken to you then okay maybe maybe you're right maybe maybe it's different thing but I think most of the people I'm surrounded by or I talk to or that I hear on hinge or here

on like social media are saying that their experience is not that they're being scared of rejected on the dating app itself and when you're in it with someone and when you're starting to date someone the fear of rejection comes up a lot more but the early crossing the bridge stuff as you said I don't think that's about fear of rejection I think I don't know't know how to put it. Like crossing the bridge is easy. Getting the number, setting up the date, all of that. It's the, why do people flake on the first dates? Why do they not text you when they've met you and had a good time? Those are all questions that I think come down to investment and people unconsciously weighing up in their head that even before they've begun to like assess it, they've gone off past precedent. They're like, it's actually just not worth my time and energy and life is so busy and i've got so much else on and

i cannot optimize this in the way i can everything else so i can't be fucked that's my take we will debate this further another time but now it's time for i'm in big trouble which is our regular dilemma segment where if you've got a problem which we can't make any worse we we try our best to be helpful and if you've got such a problem email us at if i speak at navarra media.com what's that email address moya if i speak at navarra media.com incredible when you when you kick us off with the dilemma all right dilemma one uh dear moya and ash me and my partner engaged in planning our wedding for next year several months ago i asked an old friend to be my best man he agreed but now i worry that he's increasingly distancing himself

himself from our friendship and is not excited or comfortable in the prospect of acting as my best man. I initially asked him because we've known each other for many years and went to school and university together and shared in many memories. Through much of our friendship, I have felt understood and seen by him. Growing up as a heterosexual man, I really valued this friendship, finding it hard to define this connection and emotional vulnerability among other male friendships, particularly in my teens and early twenties, when relating to male peers often seemed to be orientated around macho posturing. We're now in our early thirties and our lives have gone in somewhat different directions. Me and my partner have two young children. Due to living in different parts of the country for several years,

we've had intermittent contact, catching up when I would visit the area we both grew up in and feeling there was still a strong and valued connection between us, even though we weren't able to catch up as often. Since asking to be my best man, we moved back up north, close to the area he lives. Despite proximity, we've not ended up hanging out more frequently. I've not met his girlfriend of two years,

and he's still not met my second child who is now 10 months old, not for lack of invites. Historically, I've been the one to initiate contract and often wished he would reciprocate more, but accepted it and felt we enjoyed spending time together, so tried not to worry about it. It is true that I felt insecure about the fact that it seemed I needed to initiate contact to stay connected with him.

These are feelings I've raised with him in the past and he has said he values our friendship and was aware he could contact me more. It's important to say he does experience social anxiety and is not always comfortable in larger groups of people, particularly people he does not know already. Despite conversations and understanding his relationship to socialising, I still struggle not to feel some sense of neglect and disregard. It feels that as our lives cease to resemble each other, he's less interested in mine and is happy with a take it or leave it mentality. I understand there's no prescribed amount of contact that should exist between friends and different people will be comfortable with gaps between contact. However,

I find his apparent lack of interest or effort to stay in touch saddening and eroding of our friendship. It's really important for me and my partner to be able to feel confident and joyful on our wedding day feeling supported and celebrated by our nearest and dearest i want to involve this person as they represented part of history and journey in life should i be up front with my friend about my worries hoping you reassure me and revisit a connection that i felt enough felt our friendship was based on or should i go through with the slightly awkward process unasking my friend and asking another friend who I feel confident will be there most impractically on the day where I would start I mean I tend to like have an idea of what the advice should be first and then have an analysis afterwards which maybe I should try and flip around but like um oh well

I guess the thing that I would do in this situation is because unasking them is actually like a big deal right like this stuff and like you know who is the best man and who is the maid of honor and who gets to be a bridesmaid like this stuff does have so much weight to it attached from the outside um and i think that people can't help but internalize it and it also seems like it is something that's really meaningful for you i think that maybe like don't push the nuclear button yet i think maybe the thing that you should do is think about ways in which you can involve him in the planning of the wedding which invites you in some emotional proximity um so and the reason why i say this is because like um my, my friends were super, I mean, like

literally there wouldn't have been a wedding for one for my friends because me and my partner were like, okay, well, organizing things, choosing flowers, difficult. And my friends were like, okay, we are going to rescue you from yourselves. Um, and that, that process of them being like really, really involved also brought us a lot closer together. Like there was like a real emotional closeness that came from it um so maybe try doing that and that can become a setting for having some of these more emotional conversations and maybe he'll see that as an invitation to be closer with you and if it doesn't work out that way um and ultimately

you feel that like you don't have the kind of like comfort or support from him that like you would want from someone maybe you do unask but just know that that might severely damage the friendship at least for like a temporary amount of time like and it might not be the same after that i don't know what do you reckon um i'm i'm do the opposite to you because i always just give the analysis and then never um okay what i think is you are trying to take away his best manship to punish him for not showing the requisite interest and investment in your big day. And I think that's a perfectly natural reaction. I think on some level, when you asked him, because you're aware of the insecurities around him not initiating contact, him not seeming to

need you as much as you know that you rely and care about him, whether that's true or not, doesn't matter that's just your perception according to what you've written in this letter and I think it was almost a test that this on a day where you're like this is my this is one of my biggest days ever will he finally show the level of investment and interest in my life that I've always wanted for him and he hasn't done it in the way that you wanted, because when you have an expectation of something has failed to be met, that's when the kind of upset and anger comes out. So you obviously had an expectation of how he would conduct himself in relation to being your best man and also how the friendship would go once you moved

back up North, which is perfectly fine. I'm not saying any of this is a bad or a natural thing to think. I'm just saying that this is the analysis I'm doing on why you're feeling the way you're feeling um someone at our live show says something amazing which kind of part applies here which is about being unfulfilled when you have brought up to somebody and explained to them why the dynamics of your relationship make you feel unfulfilled and they have acknowledged that and nothing has changed this means that person doesn't really care about your like is happy to go on with things the way they are they're happy to go on knowing that you are feeling unfulfilled and unhappy with stuff if they've acknowledged it and said yeah I get that and nothing has changed do they have the capacity to change first of all don't think mean that they're doing it in a malicious way but do they have

the capacity to fulfill you in the way that you want or do you have to completely adjust your expectations of what the friendship is and what they can give back I've been in a situation with friends where I have brought up to them you know and obviously people have done it to me as well but I think I've tried to amend it on several levels and try to make change but I've been in situations where I've brought up to friends the lack of reciprocity upsets me or like I feel I feel this way about the friendship and the dynamic of it I don't feel like this is what I consider to be a friendship and this is what we actually experience and this is what you claim our friendship is and none of that matches up and they have acknowledged that and nothing has fucking changed I've mentioned this before nothing has fucking changed and eventually that friendship has come to an end and I don't mean to say that this has to come to an end

and I don't think you're there yet but I do think you're going to have to have another conversation about and I think first you need to really um put down what you expect from a friendship what do you want from this friendship what what from this friendship are you getting and what is it that you are seeking so much why so much do you need this particular type of reciprocity from him or why do you need this particular show of affection like what is it that you want from this man why why do you need this from him and why is it so hurtful that he's not delivering in this particular way or that's right it might just be a simple thing like I don't feel like it's equal etc etc there might be other stuff there about who this person what this person represents to you things that you might have gone through in

your childhood etc and you know the person that I had it with there was stuff there around abandonment and men and you know my father and like this need to feel needed and they weren't showing they needed me the way I needed them and it was really uncomfortable like all this stuff plays into it so yeah I think this I think that the best manship was you know you did it for various reasons but I think there was a test in there and he's failed the fucking test and you don't know now what to do and because you hadn't you hadn't consciously thought about what happens if he fails the test you thought he would just step up. And he hasn't. So it's like, where do you go from here?

I think, yes, obviously you have to talk to him. You can't just un-ask him. That is like nuclear. I think that's really wise. And like, Moya, completely, you are unrivaled at reading between the lines. Oh. Unrivaled. Inspector Clouseau.

Well, sometimes I get it wrong. Remember when people write in and they're like, actually, Moya, you has that happened yet i don't think it's happened yet i think one person was like what did they say they were like oh ash you were actually more on the money on this one but it was quite early on so i'm just writing it off i'm talking up to the game now also it's like that there's going to that's going to go both ways either way in all directions like um I reserve the right to be wrong um yeah I think I think that that sounds really insightful and there's a way of thinking through your own emotions special one I think that that's like a good thing to do I guess I would just say like think about think about like a way to bring them closer right so

it's and the wedding is is a great excuse, right? Because you can say, all right, we're meeting up to talk about this. We're meeting up to talk about that and see if they respond to it. And if they don't just be like, time to have that conversation. Disagree, you're setting more tests.

You're setting more tests. I don't think it's a test. I think it's an invitation. Not if the person doesn't know what's at stake. If you're just saying like, I do this all all the time i'm an ultimate test setter without realizing i'm setting tests okay but weddings have a like the ritual of the wedding and everything that like leads up to it like there is an understanding that it's important to like show up and be present for those things but this person has already bollocks that understanding well it's sort of unclear if if he's bollocks that understanding

with relation to the wedding or bollocks that understanding generally which has made our special one go you're not the right person to be a best man he says since asking him we've moved back up north close to the area but we've we've not ended up hanging out more frequently he's not met the girlfriend of two years and the friend has not met a second child despite loads of invites so he's already he's already i think we're already at the stage where the conversation is needed if you haven't met the kid uh like 10 months old child second child and you're already best man and you've been invited loads i think we're past the stage of see if he shows up and to the pit of we just have to have a

conversation this person is writing into us because they need advice I'm also interested in who you think you'd ask otherwise because you're writing to us for advice which means the people around you have not given advice that you're satisfied with yet so this person it seems like this person is maybe the person that you would go to for advice and that they mean a lot to you and I think you need to talk to them again and tell them, like you have this open, vulnerable relationship, which obviously you maybe feel that he doesn't do it back to you, but you rely on him a lot and the initiating contact. Like, but that is quite rare for straight men to have.

And I do think you should try and hold onto it and fix it. But also maybe, maybe I'm speculating, maybe you do have lots of people around you you can still have those conversations with and straight male friends. And I'm sure you have it with your partner. But having friends who are also men, actually straight or not, doesn't matter.

Having friends who are men as well as a man is really important. And if you can start trying to build those links with them as well, I would advise that too because it's like you can have a bestie and it means everything to you, but it takes a village. It takes a village. But I do think if someone's writing into us, it's time you can have a bestie and it means everything to you but you need it takes a village it takes a village but if i do think if someone's writing into us it's time for the conversation

that's like you know what that's probably a good rule of thumb um we should probably wrap it up there maya who are you oh you always ask this and it's like it changes every week um i'm moya lathian mclean i'm moya lathian mclean i'm katie fucking fit i'm moya god damn lothian mclean um london will miss you the ravens will flee the tower oh don't don't know don't make a big deal because what if i am back like in a year there's so like then then we'll make a big deal of the return make a big deal out of everything let's not make a big deal i don't like big deal well i like big deals when I'm controlling them anyway

who are you? I am a raven from the Tower of London bye bye bye Thank you.