If I Speak - 40: Do aesthetic trends offer clues to political shifts?

Episode Date: November 26, 2024

Moya has a big theory for Ash about aesthetic trends as a harbinger of the US election results, which prompts a very adult discussion (read: argument) about the purpose of the podcast. Plus a bundle of your Missed Connections, including hotties spotted in Glasgow, Manchester, at the Palestine protest and – where else! – an […]

Hello and welcome to If I Speak. I need to apologize. I have got a cold. I'm probably going to sniff. I sound a little huskier than normal. You can hear it. It's all in my nose. Right now, we've got that out the way. Ash, hello. Introduce yourself. Tell me how you are. I'm good. I'm good. I just want to say that the phlegm is where the character is.

You know what I mean? Like, that's really that's the texture of a voice, Moira. Embrace it. But then what if I cough up all the phlegm? Do I lose my character? Yeah, so you just have to absorb it back into your system closed loop system as Tom Walmscans would say I still haven't watched succession still have not seen succession I've only got room for occasional TV series that I imprint on and mine is hate is industry

That's my HBO series. I love industry. I perhaps identify too closely with Harper, I would say. Are you not a Harper? I'm such a Harper. I'm such a Harper. Maybe I'm a Rob actually. I don't know. Sometimes I feel like a Harper and sometimes I feel like a Rob. Who are you? Sure. And I think that's the beauty of these characters, right? Which is that like the way in which they're driven by insecurity speaks to you on a deep level. Like when I watch the halfway how far through are you?

Girl, I finished I was there from day dot. I was there. I watched the first episode the first day it came out. And I have since then found means and ways to watch every season as it airs in the US. So I finished all three seasons. It's I mean, I fucking I fucking love it. Like, when I watched the episode, which is like the Rishi focused episode, uncut jams Rishi episode. Yeah, uncut jams. And like my partner was like, let's watch it right before bed. And then he just like rolled over and went to sleep afterwards. So I was like, heart pounding watch it right before bed. And then he just like rolled over and went to sleep afterwards. And I was like, heart pounding, like,

adrenalized, losing my mind. How can you watch that just before bed? That's a, that's a pure shot of like caffeine. That's like speed. He didn't know what that was going to be in the episode. And like, to be fair, like tonally, it was different from like what came before, but like I watched it and I was like, oh my god,

it to me. And my partner was like, what are you talking about? Like, no, it's not like this is a gambling addict who is like pathologically addicted to reckless self-destructive behavior. That is not you in any way. And I was like, oh, the thing that speaks to me here is like the way in which this guy is like driven by self-loathing, right? Self-loathing, shame, this constant fear of being found out. So that's why I think you're not a Harper, but I can see why because of the way in which those characters are written and that their behavior seems so rooted in these feelings, which are like so tangible. I can understand why I'd say that, but behaviorally you are not a Harper. That's true.

I'm not ruthless enough. I think I've thought about this since I couldn't make the decisions she makes because she is so driven by the need to prove everyone wrong and succeed that she becomes quite immoral. And I just would not be able to do the decision she makes that, you know, even veer into the criminal because that's not the level of confidence I have in myself and the system to protect me. Because I am scared of the law. Yeah, I'm scared.

The law does a really good job at conditioning my behaviour. Yeah. I've got some questions for you. Okay. Question one, what's your favourite thing that you've got on your wall? Oh, this is a bad question to ask because I haven't got anything on my wall right now. None of my prints are up. None of my prints are up because you need to put nails in the wall to put your prints

up and I, me and my housemate are waiting for the time when we decide where the prints are going to be placed to get the handyman in to do them all at once. But I slightly suspect they may never go up. So they're all just leaning against walls where we might place them. There is one print. You need a handyman to put them up. I can't do nails. I'll botch it. I'll botch it. And they're not my walls. And at the end of my tenancy, they'll need to be taken out and moved elsewhere. So I don't want to fuck it up and fuck up my landlord's really nice walls, especially my landlord is actually nice. But I do have one print up. There is one nail.

There's one nail that's sticking out the wall in the bathroom already. And I put my just two of my favorite prints. I have two prints that my favorite out of many, many prints that I own. One is huge. One is and that's also actually on display, it's just not hung up. One is this massive print that's like blue and the figures, there's two figures, I think that, I think it's called either the Kiss or the Lovers or something like that, but it's by this artist called Cecil Waldron. And he is an artist who works with Headway,

which is the charity, the arts charity that works with people living with brain injury. And Cecil is a very old, so like in his late 80s, guy, Guyanese guy originally, who came over, he was a photographer. And then he, I think, I can't remember when he got his brain injury but he's been working with Hedwig for several years and I went to one of their shows, it's one of my

favourite things to do, their Christmas shows where you can buy art and I saw this print and I was like I have to have it, I have to have this print and it's of these two lovers kissing and it was massive and I had to go back, paid for the print. Probably the most expensive thing that was bought at that thing, because it's mostly just like tote bags and stuff. And I was like, I want the giant print. Paid for this print, had to get a special UV frame

for it as well, because I really just didn't want it tarnished by the sunlight. And since then, Cecil's actually had an exhibition. I think he had a standalone one. And then there was also a headway had one at the Barbican as well. And their Christmas show is coming up. I can't remember exactly when, but you should look it up. They are one of my favorite charities.

The work, there's this guy who does embroidery there. And I'll shut up about them in a second, but I do want to just really give them a shout. There's a guy who does embroidery there. And one of my biggest regrets ever is not getting this embroidery of a cowboy that he did. And it's so beautiful. It's so, it's like bright patterns. That's so delicate. That's just like a cowboy and a horse. And you know, I only buy stuff that really like speaks to me. And I know it sounds so arsey, but the stuff that speaks to me is really random. Like I'll see something I'm like, that speaks to me on such a deep level, I have to have it.

And most of the time I won't be bothered, but when I see something I need to have it, this cowboy haunts me, I need that cowboy. But yeah, their annual Christmas exhibition, you can go and you can buy lots of the work by the artists. And it just makes the best presence as well. Like it's really special stuff, really special art. No one else will have it.

And it's also like obviously a good cause, but just it's standalone work. It's work that you won't see anywhere else. And it means a lot to me to have this print in my house. The other one is a print by an artist called Lisa Bryce, who is a South African artist. And I saw it and I hope she doesn't listen to this because I may have got the print by non good means.

There's ways and means to get a nice print, even if it's not really available. And she's an amazing artist and I saw it in the tape and I was like, I really want a copy of that. So it's just a very small version of it. But her work is the kind of work that I think would be hanging in Rihanna's house. It's very like earthy. It's lots of women figures. I went specifically to Paris last year to go and see a solo exhibition she did

in one of those like private galleries, just because I love Lisa Brice so much. And she's fab. Although really weirdly, she was in the Life Between Islands exhibition at the Tate. So I assumed she was a black artist from Caribbean Islands. No, she's a white South African artist that lives in London and has some pages. So I don't know why she was watching that exhibition, but I'm glad she was because it introduced me to her work. Everything's an island. If you think about it, it's good. If you really think hard. Anyway, those are the two pieces that I have up at the moment and they mean a lot to me.

Ooh, all right, question two. What in your mind sticks out as the perfect pop song? Red wine supernova by Chapel Rowan. Oh, really? Perfect pop song, perfect. The way that it, I mean, a perfect pop song should be like short. It should be three minutes.

I do agree with that. It's got a massive belter like bit. It's got the, like starts low, everyone can sing along. It's, it's just like at the top of the range, but it's in a bit of range where lots of people can sing along with it.

The melody is so infectious. It's a constant on repeat. And then she's got that, the pre-chorus is like, and it just goes up. The way that that goes up is so catchy. Like it's like she's put crack in a song. That's a perfect pop song. See, I was torn between two songs by the same band.

Okay. I was torn between L songs by the same band. I was torn between Linga by the Cranberries and Dreams by the Cranberries. Two Cranberry songs. Both of those are perfect songs. They're perfect dreamy pop songs as well. One of my favorite things is when me and my mum are driving to my sister's house because my mum will always come pick me up and then we'll drive to where my sister lives. That's always the moment where like me

and my mom listen to music together. And it's so, it's like the most special time I get with her. Like, like I love it so, so much, I cannot tell you. Because it will be a mix of like listening to songs that she loved whereas, you know, as a younger woman, stuff that I think that she might like, you know, just sort of like, you know, it's so, so great. Like, and last time we were like, screaming cranberry songs at the top of our lungs. And

it was just, it was so, so great. Taste. You got taste. I just, I love the cranberries. And also, what I love about those songs is that I think Dolores O'Riordan wrote them when she was like 16. And like when my mom was talking about it, my mom said something, which is like, you know, so many of those incredible first albums are written by people who are young enough to believe in some way that they are the first person to have ever felt that feeling. Like you need that thing of like, oh my God, like, does everyone know about this feeling? And so you write it down and that's why it's such a perfect encapsulation, which becomes timeless. Like, you know, I'm 32 and I listen to dreams. I go,

this is the perfect young love song. Yeah. By which I mean, not just when you were like young in age, but like that, that moment of burgeoning. And I think it's because you have to be young enough to go, I'm the first person that felt this. Yeah, that's why Taylor Swift's early albums were so banging. Like she has lost something along the way. She used to be an amazing, I mean, it was technically country, but her pop writing was, you listen to the old songs like Fearless. Those actually are just slamming pop songs.

Red is probably her best like pop album, I'd say. And then you get into the later stuff and she's just so weighed down by this need to like overwrite, put in all these metaphors, boring production. Whereas those early songs they just absolutely sing with the newness of feeling and sort of like fantasy and dreams and then as you get older it's much harder to sort of reinvent your songwriting which is why it's so impressive when you see pop stars who can do that and have managed to do that. And often, you know, they'll be doing it with teams.

So like, I would say Calwood Carter, I love that album. I think it's an amazing album. Lots of people kind of, oh, it was mid, whatever. Nah, it really spoke to me. That songwriting spoke to me. And Beyonce's team of writers, I think, paired perfectly with where she is in her life and the sound and made the sounds fresh, new,

the writing tight and right and also but the way she delivers it she like the delivery also really matters and I think a lot of pop stars as they get older it's like how do you represent this feeling in like you're away from that early like joyful first bit of life everything's technicolor how do you keep the all like the keep the listeners engaged with you on this journey? And it's something a lot of them don't manage to do. The last question I have for you is, what's the last thing which made you feel really overwhelmed by nostalgia? Oh, fuck. I feel overwhelmed by nostalgia every day.

Oh, did I mention this? I was in Exeter and I was, I just done a talk at Exeter Uni. This was like two weeks ago, maybe, maybe three. And I was walking to the hotel that the university had kindly put me up in. And it was around, I was down the back of the cathedral. I'd never been to Exeter before. I will call it the Durham of the South. It's incredible that two identical cities exist,

but just that many miles away. So I was walking, I was walking to my hotel and I was around the back of the cathedral, but there's no lights, which is really odd. Exeter City Council sort that out because someone's going to get in trouble. But I was walking behind this young student, she and her parents, and it was half term. So a lot of parents are around visiting their kids. And she just asked her dad, who was probably like mid 70s, what he thought of the chips in a restaurant they'd gone to. And he was just like, oh, they were okay. Like, you know, classic dad answer of like saying,

this was good, the chips were mid. And I just suddenly got this powerful fucking rush of like, I started crying a little bit because I was so overwhelmed by like, I will not even know this sad way, just like, I'm so far from when I used to take my parents around the university town, I will never have that moment again, of trying to make conversation with my parents about the food we've just eaten. And you know, they're walking me back to dorms or hotel or wherever we're staying in the university town. And like, I'm so far away now from that period of

my life. and soon those people probably won't be around anymore in that way and it's like I should have I should have pressured those moments more I should have like held on to them all but I just got such a powerful rush of like being young at that age entering life but you still are still want to know that your parents approved of the meal you just had in the university town you're in it was just so nostalgic I mean I get it all the time with songs, but that was one where I was like, fucking hell. I was like, actually like a bit teary. But that's the thing is that you can't, you can't see it at the time. Like that's the thing about

like getting older, which is that like, you are suddenly insightful enough to understand all these things that you experienced that you couldn't, you couldn't understand at the time. And that's why I fucking love nostalgia. Like I am addicted to nostalgia. I love that like bittersweet, like slightly agonizing feeling. Like I think I like it even more than the feeling of having been young and like just like rushing all the time. Like I get a lot with music. I get it a lot with place. So I met up with an old friend who I hadn't seen for maybe about eight years.

And we met up in Bloomsbury, which is where we went to uni and we were just walking up the road that we'd walked up a million times when we were 2021. And I was like, ah, nostalgia, even better than the real thing. Yes. So I hear you've got a big theory for me. I do have a big theory. I also just remembered another nostalgic moment that happened just after I had my hair done, which is slightly

grimy. I walked out my hairdressers, right, which I've done many times, but usually I go the other way. So like my hairdressers is in East London done many times but usually I go the other way so like my hairdressers is in East London. Actually do you know what I'll shout them out because they're so sick. Barnet Fair by the Oval in East London, really good amazing colour. Charlotte has great carts as well like I really recommend that's why I get my bleach and tone where I get my new colour. Anyway so I walk out of there and usually I go left to the canal. This time I went right up towards, I think it's Hackney Road, Bethnal Green Road,

whichever big road is there. And I suddenly got hit and I suddenly realized where I was. I was right by Oval Space. It's next to Oval Space. You think I would have clocked back before? No. And I suddenly had the most powerful memory of coming out of Oval Space,

doing some disgusting things on the pavement. And then like getting in a cab. And it was one that like involved with my exes and like friends and was at a really like chaotic time for me in my life. And I thought, I, cause I know it's changed so much and I will never go back to that person doing those things. Like it's just not in my makeup anymore.

But I was like, wow, I didn't know when I did that, that would be the last time that would happen in this place. Cause I have a space is closed as well now at fast running. Anyway, nostalgia, blah, blah, blah. You are my theory. Okay. That's what a bold claim. I'm, I'm, I'm ready.

I'm ready. I'm ready for your theory, but let's see if I want it once I get it. So this theory is actually one that's sort of I've been seeing circulating on the Tiki talks and social media. And I wanted to bring it to the podcast because it's interesting and it spoke to me. And also, I think it might kind of be true. So there's been a lot of fashion trends going around that focus on stripping things back on the minimal and beauty trends too. So clean beauty. I've noticed people have been dying their hair back to their natural color.

They've been encouraged to go back to their brunette roots. I'm actually copper right now, which is another big trend, but like darker colors, less of the bleach blondes, this idea of like focus on the skincare on like natural beauty, minimalist makeup, high contrast makeup is a thing that keeps all like pairing your makeup to your contrast so it's the most muted thing possible and suits your face rather than like dramatic bold looks,

et cetera. When it comes to fashion trends, the trends that have been really potent, and by that I mean they last for more than one cycle, because that nowadays is longevity. Things like the old money trend, this idea of like quiet luxury. So everyone's wearing loose trousers, minimalist clothing, these like long blazers, the little gold hoops, you know. There's a focus on the classic like blow dry, the blow dry, the Bob blow dry. Everyone looks very professional. This is the look that people are going for.

The street wear is starting to move out of the spotlight. There's also obviously dressing like a goddamn Amish lady. So the long skirts, the waistcoats, the sort of clothes that cover up your body shape. And the theory I keep seeing around is were these weather vanes for the conservative swing that has resulted in Donald Trump being elected president in not just a victory but an absolute fucking landslide. I don't think it's just limited Donald Trump, I think it's more indicative of like a wider conservative shift anyway and they're not the cause obviously but these I'm

really keen to talk about whether these trends are symptoms of this conservative move across Western countries or especially among young people, or whether they just exist in their own sphere? What do you think? I do not buy it. Go on. I'm so sorry. I just don't buy it because I don't... Maybe you can explain this to me. I don't see the relationship between that and voting behaviour particularly when you look at the young people, by which I'm broadly saying under 40s who did end up voting for Trump. That is not their aesthetic. That's not what they buy into. That's actually much more like what you might call coastal elites. And what I'm talking about elites in this particular instance, this isn't

how I normally use the word. I'm not just talking about income. I'm also talking about feeling that you're at the center of cultural production somehow. You know, it's, you know what, there's a perfect succession analog for this, which is like the Pierce family who are like the liberal mirror image of the Roy's. You've got the Pierce family who, you know, are all New England, old money, you know, you can kind of imagine that they hung out with the Kennedys. They've got these massive old rickety mansions that were like, oh, welcome to our funny little house. They quote Shakespeare all the time. They would wear clothes which look older and a lot less flashy, would never dream of a big gaudy watch, that kind of thing. That is much more connected to, I guess, the

thing. That is much more connected to, I guess, the Democrat aristocracy. So I don't see the relationship between that set of aesthetics and voting behavior, especially when you look at you look at, you know, the, from the stuff that like, so Navarra, we sent out some journalists to the States and like when they were covering Trump rallies and like the younger people, it was very, very skin tight, very skin tight. Like the strip lashes were lashing, the, you know, the contour was contouring. Like, you know, when you when you look at somebody like Andrew Tate or like, you know, Conor McGregor, who were within the context of this sexual assault civil case is like, you know, kind of positioning him as like positioning himself as like, you know, kind of a victim of of vicious and malevolent women. It's like, again, super tight, like ripped dudes, like massive bulky dudes, like straining at the seams of their clothes. I just don't buy this

as a theory. I think there's lots of stuff to get into about why is it that Trump made gains amongst everybody, including young people, but I just don't think it's tied to aesthetics. See, I don't see it as like a directly linked to voting behavior thing. I'm seeing, I think what I'm trying to talk about is more of like, is this cultural expression indicative of the wider shift towards this idea of like traditional,

and this is just where it's expressing itself in these particular circles. So the nostalgia that we talked about a lot, I think that's so prevalent, and it's interesting what we become nostalgic for collectively. And I feel like the nostalgia has definitely shifted towards having a more conservative, and I mean, a small C, a conservative focus in recent years.

And it's more like traditional, more, like, yeah, like the stripped back, this focus on like the natural, this focus on, I don't even describe it, like the tradwives are obviously a massive part of this, but I do see the way that people dress and the aesthetics that are being pushed upon them as perhaps symptoms of the wider shift towards like conservatism and a particular vein of conservatism has momentum. Whereas Brat was just

a summer. Brat was just a summer. You know? This has been, we've had a long winter of people wearing, pushing this minimalism, pushing this idea of like a certain type of conformity and a specific sort of like mix of luxury and aspiration tied with this idea of you have to, and there's the messaging that's coming back about, you know, restriction and you have to be thin and the overt fat phobia that exists and the overt rejection of us, you know, you need to get rid of your tattoos before your wedding day because they look ugly. And these people coming on and decrying expressions of self that a few years ago were seen as so desirable and now it's changed. It doesn't mean that they necessarily are voting conservative. I just wonder if all of these

all of these simultaneous shifts towards a more beige, a more, again, this idea of natural, this, you know, you have to, and you get what you're given and you make the best of it kind of vibe. Expression is part of a conservative shift, always like the symptom of a conservative shift that's happened and they're not aware of where it's coming from because everyone thinks that's so original and this trend has just happened. And I'm like, no, I think that these things are linked to the greater economic shifts that are happening around us.

Yeah, I agree that they're connected to like broader economic, social, political things. It's just, I think that looking at it through the lens of conservatism is one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is that the word sustainability has become very voguish within various acts of consumerism. So how do you keep people spending money but thinking that they're doing it sustainably? Okay, well, we're going to go for quality rather than very zeitgeisty or trendy fads, which have got a short shelf life, right? It's a way of also packaging consumerism as sustainable by being like, well, this is something which is timeless and classic and is not going to date, right? That's like one way of doing

it. I do also think that these things move in cycles. But this cycle, right? We talking about cycles, we are in a conservative cycle, in a right wing cycle. Anyone who has read even a little bit of history is like saying stuff like, oh, it's giving Weimar, it's giving, you know, the post 1940s, it's giving like 1950s. Like anyone who's seen these cycles before- Those are all different time periods. They're different time periods, but it's the same sort of forces where it's, you know, you have this breathing dispersion of what's seen as progressive,

then an economic downturn comes and suddenly everyone's both getting domestically tighter, tightening up the borders, tightening up this idea of who's allowed to be here, who belongs to the community, who's to blame for the economic pain people are feeling. And then there's a load of wars that are happening alongside this as, this, as these fears spill out elsewhere. And then in domestic spaces, domestic countries, you've also got this rightward swing. And the only thing that breaks that is when there's a massive, horrible catastrophe and everyone goes,

oh my God, we all lost our minds. Fascism is actually quite bad, you know? And then for another X amount of years, no one learns any lessons and just pretends that all the forces that led to that in the first place have gone away. And it comes back and people are like, oh, how did this come back?

I've got no idea how this came back. And then, you know. Yeah, I mean, look, I think that's onto something, but I suppose like, I just think looking at it through the lens of like trends and aesthetics is a dead end. Like I do just think it's a dead end. I don't think it's actually telling you why people have behaved the way that they've behaved. Um, what are the kind of like underlying social forces?

I think it's a way quite frankly, for people on Tik Tok to hold a mirror up to themselves. Like I just, I just think, I just think that like, um, as, as an analysis, like I don't buy it, I think it's a dead end. And I think that it actually takes you further away from understanding the election result. Now there are lots of ways to understand it. I'm not saying, okay, well, it's only about inflation or it's only about immigration or it's only about the unique weaknesses of Harris as a candidate. So all of those things. I just don't think that looking at it through trends gets you any closer to

understanding what's going on. And I feel surprisingly strongly about this. As I'm saying it, I feel surprisingly strongly about it. And I think it's because I feel... How I felt at the result was three things. The first thing, and I've got to just say this as bluntly as I can, a part of me felt a deep sense of schadenfreude that Harris and the Democrats were punished, particularly in places like Michigan, like Dearborn, they were punished for backing a genocide and not just backing a genocide, materially supporting it, but their disdain and contempt for Muslim voters. The fact that they sent Bill fucking Clinton to Michigan to sort of scold Muslim voters for being concerned about civilian deaths in Gaza. I just think, you know what, you deserve to lose. You deserve to lose. If I'm saying this as a Brit, that I'm sick of the way in which the Democrats use the

existence of something worse, i.e. the Republican Party, to try and blackmail voters to the ballot box, I'm glad that that collapsed and no longer worked. I am. It's Schadenfreude. It's not an endorsement of what's going to happen next. But I do feel that way. The second thing was about climate change. The election of Donald Trump means that possibly four billion extra tons of emissions are going to be put into the atmosphere. That's going to cancel the worldwide gains made by the shift to renewable energy. The extent to which we're on course for a Mad Max future is insane. energy. The extent to which we're on course for a Mad Max future is insane. The third thing was this has to be a moment of humility and introspection. It's easy for people who are on the left, by which I mean the anti-capitalists left, to look at it as all the fault of establishment

Democrats. I think that there's a lot of truth in that. But there's also like a whole load of ways in which this should be challenging to us. And this should make us turn inward and like, look at our own political culture, look at the positions that we take, look at how these positions are communicated, and take the time to be self critical. And I guess I just think that the idea of looking at it through the lens of like trends that I think that the median young Trump voter doesn't even participate in, it just feels to me like a means of turning away from the real issues. That's what I think.

I don't know. I'm still not convinced that that's right. I think that so many people participate in things like fashion and beauty and that these things are really significant. And then again, I'm not saying that they're causation. I'm saying that this might be a way, a prism of what a prism for people to understand how, why other things are happening or what the effect is on their lives as well.

People who think they're completely removed from these trends, who think they're completely removed from the causes of these trends. I don't know, I'm not convinced by your argument that it's not significant. I think these things are significant. So many people participate in them, and far more than who think they're like political and think that that you know, you think this has nothing to do with you? Is that kind of vibe? It has everything to do with you. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna put this this is a provocation to you. Is this a way to

just talk about and focus on people who are like you? Right? Who are university graduates live in big cities, these trends are meaningful to them. Like, it does not have the same salience or meaning to people outside of those spaces or milieus. I think that again, that's wrong. You're wrong Ash. Because it's like you're making the same assumptions. These people who participate in these trends, it's not all university graduates who live in cities. I know perfectly, I know people who live in small towns who buy into these trends. Otherwise there would be like a small fucking Primark there selling this stuff to them. And again, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying about this. I don't think this is like a direct causation of voting

for specifically Donald Trump. I think I'm trying to explore what link these trends have with a wider cultural shift towards a more conservative mindset, a more conservative momentum. And it's like, how do these trickle down into these expressions? I think it does not matter. Like, and I'm so sorry to be this harsh, but like, like, I just think it does not matter. Like if we want, if we want to be real and we want to like actually be like introspective and probing right like and probing It's the positions that we take right one. How is it that working-class people? Across we need to stop invoking working-class people for not working

It's true. Yeah, I'm sorry like it's held up We have we hold them up we hold up working-class people as this like every time we try and we're not gonna it's like working-class people and it's held up, we hold them up, we hold up working class people as this like every time we try and win an argument it's like working class people and it's like some working class people are wearing long blazers and gold hoops, some working class people are wearing these tight dresses we're talking about. I don't think it, I don't think, yeah I don't think it's okay. I'm not talking about the trends, I'm like I'm not talking about the trends, I literally think these trends don't matter. I literally do not give a fuck about the small few peerings. What I'm talking about is how is it that working class people across different races

looked at Donald Trump and the Republican Party and when you better represent my interests? Like that that is the only question that matters. It's the only question that matters. Is it because this is the thing it's like yeah that's a question that matters. It's the only question that matters. Is it? Because this is the thing. It's like, yeah, that's a question that matters and that we would discuss maybe on one of the other Navara shows. But this, this is a show where we talk about the cultural expressions and like more lifestyle subjects that tie into those things. So I think to say it doesn't matter full stop is I think it is a bit dismissive because it's like you can explore these things and you can talk about them. You can also say that these are not causation,

these are not, you know, it's not the main thing. That if we really want to boil it down, what you think is the most important thing to stress is this other thing. And that politically, if you want, you know, people want to listen to this, this other thing and talk about this other thing that is, you know, there is loads of spaces for that,

but this is specifically a space that we created to discuss stuff like this at length. So I think, I think to say this idea of like, oh, it doesn't matter. And also like the only thing that matters is XYZ. Sure. But there's a lot of people who are listening who are probably like, I do want to hear something about this. I do want to, you know, talk about this. This is interesting. I'm sure, I'm sure that I'm sure that many people, maybe most people are gonna listen to this and be like, Ash, you are being a complete bitch. I'm sure that's the case, but how-

I don't think they'll call you a bitch. People might just be like, oh, it's a bit. It's dismissive of the behaviors people partake in that get them interested in this topic in the first place. We use so many things as gateways to talk about stuff, so I feel like to dismiss something that so many people partake in when they won't partake in actually discussing the material stuff of politics is a bit dismissive. But where does the gateway take you? Where does the gateway take you?

This is the thing which is important, right? Does it take you towards understanding the issue? Or does it take you towards in some way talking about yourself? We are two girls wearing small hoop earrings talking about girls who wear small hoop earrings. Why can't it? Why can't it take us to both though? That's what I don't understand. We talk about ourselves all the time as gateways to do things like we, if you listen to any of our interviews, we talk about our own experiences a lot of the time to try and talk about the bigger issues. That's completely true. But right now when like what

has happened is such a rebuke to our politics and our worldview. You have to look at that. Turning inwards, holding up the mirror to the self is such a dead end. I actually think that it is a retreat into a kind of political narcissism, which is completely corrosive to the projects that we say we want to build. One thing which I think is so important that's come out of this election is that I think that in the next five to 10 years, anti-immigration sentiment is going to become more powerful amongst communities of color. It already has. It's been doing that since Brexit. But I think that's going to happen even more. And so what we the left say about issues of asylum

and immigration is really important. And you should think about like, okay, well, if we're saying this is racist and the person hearing it is not white, right? Like, is that going to be persuasive or are they going to look at that and go, you don't know what you're talking about, you don't know what I'm feeling? The border towns, you know, in the, in the South of America and the border with Mexico, many of which are overwhelmingly Latino, had some of the biggest swings towards Donald Trump. Now I have like the thing which began my politics wasn't Marxism, it was anti-racism and it was pro-migrant politics. You're filtering for yourself again, Ash. No, but that is the beginning of it for me.

And this for me was a moment of going, okay, I want to defend the rights of people who seek asylum. I think that people are forced into irregular migration because of circumstances, because of a lack of safe and legal routes. I think all these things. What the median voter thinks and what they feel about it is really different from what I feel. And at least being able to start thinking about that and understanding that and thinking about the ways in which the thing I have to say is off putting to them is like, I want to think about that. I want to talk about that. I want to understand and to think about the ways in which Bernie Sanders is not a politician

that's beyond reproach, like particularly on the genocide, like I've questioned him directly about that. But his approach to minority identity issues and the approach of Harris is really, really different. Right? He is trans inclusive, but he's not going to go on and on and on about what language people use because he's gonna bring it back to more universal issues. And he's going to say,

well, whether you're transgender or not, you are impacted by the fact that the billionaire class is getting richer and the price of your groceries is going up as well. He's going to bring it back to those things which emphasize the shared humanity and experience between groups, right? Emphasize that, the economy cuts across those groups. Like I think that's really important. Like is our way of talking about minority issues deepening a sense of irreducible difference between people? That's a challenge that we need to look at.

If we're thinking about, you know, the way in which young men were being appealed to, the way in which there is, you know, a whole like, you know, Manisfit which young men were being appealed to, the way in which there is, you know, whole like, you know, manisfit or right pipeline. Like one of the things that they do and like, you know, I think the reasons why they do this, like it's fucked, but like it's also important, is that they offer really clear instructions for how you're meant to live, right? It's do this, don't do this. Now I think that that's in service of a thing which is completely fucked. That is something which the left is like, we're really, um, censorious and hexering

in our own way. But if you're saying, Hey, what does it mean to live a good life? What should you do? Like should you watch porn every day? Or should you go to the gym? Like we don't like making judgments like that. And the fact is, is that there are a lot of people who feel lost, who feel completely abandoned by the pace and the nature of modern life, who find the clarity of the instructions that the right gives them really appealing. And I think all these things are more than appropriate

to talk about on this podcast. I think that they're cultural. I don't think that it's all just us being like Nate Silver and like looking at the polling data. I think that these are cultural issues. It just, these are issues which take us outside of ourselves, outside of people that feel familiar to us and into encountering the other. And that's just what I think is the overriding priority at this time.

Yeah, I just think you're projecting onto me a little bit about who I encounter and who I don't encounter in my day to day life. I'm talking about conversationally encounter, right? Like the analytical work that we're doing now. Maybe, but I think you assume everyone who listens to this podcast is left-wing as well. You talk about this as a collective and it's like they're not. There's people who won't listen to this who won't even maybe even identify politically, you've just come across it. I think we just have slightly different approaches in how we think and feel about some of this messaging and I do think there is a slight projection of what you think my motivation is and what I'm actually saying based upon what you would be saying if you were talking about this.

And that's not maybe accurate. Yeah, that's kind of how I feel. I feel like, yeah, I have different thoughts and feelings about like messaging and people. And I also know it's not really my forte. It's not really my forte to be messaging people. I don't want to over-labor the point. That's just how I feel.

No, no, no, no. I guess I really want to hear this. I really, like, could you tell me? I don't know more. I don't know what I'm trying to say, except that, you know, you're making these points about who we're trying to appeal to, get out of our bubble, et cetera, et cetera. I think I've just been aware for a very long time that what my bubble is, I'm not trying to appeal to the bubble or not.

I'm just trying to talk about something. I don't see it as like the main issue. It's just something I brought up that was interesting to me to discuss and we have discussed it. I think there's this idea of like, you know, your approach is very like, let's bang this drum, let's show them, this leads to this and this leads to this,

and there's this coalition here and that actually we're all shared humanity. For me, that's kind of like a given, and I don't think that I'm very useful at effectively communicating that anyway. Like I'd rather just talk about some things and let people take what they want from them. But I get out of my bubble every day.

Like I live somewhere now where my job is literally to go out and talk to people from all walks of life every single day, whether that's on the phone or in person or stopping someone at the bus stop on the pub. Like I've I've constantly been talking to people for the last X amount of years as well. Just in general. And any time I have a conversation with someone, it's just like, yeah, there's, I knew Tram was gonna win.

I knew Tram was gonna win. I think in four years before, we're probably gonna win as well. Because that is the direction that I'm getting from people. Like there's, and I think left politics is in a real flop era. And that's maybe something that we don't even know how to address or really scale up.

I don't, I think we've, you know, and I don't have the energy to try and work out what to do there. It's more like in my own life, how can I actually just enact the values that I believe in and maybe not even try and change people's hearts and minds and just live by the example that I'd be happy to live by. But I do think that maybe my bubble is less bubbly than you think it is, and you might be projecting a bit on it. I don't, I'm not, I really wanna emphasize this, that like, one, I think that you're right to say

that I'm projecting things that I'm thinking about myself, right, and like, and the work that I do. That is completely true, that's completely fair. But I think where you're getting me wrong is this isn't me accusing you of being in a bubble, it's me thinking about this podcast, this thing that we're creating together and like how the conversations that we have

are able to stimulate further conversations and thinking and analysis amongst people who aren't us. And is it going to be one which directs attention, I guess, like again, like I do think that while not everyone who listens to this podcast is left-wing, I think that there's, there's I would wager a majority of people are in or have had higher education. That doesn't mean I'm, you know, so have I. Like, like I'm not, this is not me saying and therefore bad people, it's me going like, okay, well, like for, for, for these, these demographics of people, like actually where, where do I think their attention is best directed? That's what it's about.

It's not about saying you're in a bubble. It's about thinking about like what this podcast does when it's out in the world. I guess I feel it's a bit, sometimes borders on like the left's approach is like, we're so desperate to get across our message. We start preaching to people. And one thing I've learned through my many years

of preaching at people and telling them things and mentioning things that make them switch off is you're not suddenly going to make them switch onto that. And you have to go through the Trojan horses if you want to get things across and that the softly, softly approach works a lot better. Like I think about, I've talked about this before, but people close to me who started going down a bit of a gender critical path and in conversations with them, I used to literally just like rule off the facts constantly and then like get so wound up I'd start crying

because it would distress me so much. And that didn't work at all. It didn't work in a single, like at all. What actually did work was slowly, and I've discussed this before so I won't go into it too much, but like was slowly sort of just like living my life, showing them the people around me

were the same people that they were, you know, treating as these complete others. And then also watching them get involved in like groups that put the onus on feminism, but in sexual feminism. So they were aware of, you know, this total boogie man sort of construction of trans people was just false and like against their interests. But all my preaching did fuck all.

Everyone I've ever preached has done fuck all. Like, and I think, you know, we, we talk, I'm not saying that we shouldn't have the platform and space to talk about it. I just wonder sometimes if like constantly invoking like the, you know, the classic touchstones of left wing politics, like this is Bernie and this is what Bernie says and this is what Blaba says.

And it's like people's brains just sometimes switch off and maybe that's an anti intellectual take. I'm not saying we've got to do that at all. I'm not saying we've got to do that. So there's two things. One is like, I think to clarify the thing I'm saying and then to like pick up on something that you said, which I think is really interesting. I'm not saying that what we should do in this episode is talk about Bernie Sanders and talk about the Democrats and economic partners. We have Alex!

I'm not saying that that's the thing that we should do. The thing I'm saying is that I think that there are these huge questions and there are other ways into them, right? Whether you want to think of them as gateways or Trojan horses or whatever, there are other ways into them. But I think it's got to lead back to that question. For me, the question about like aesthetics and stuff took us away from that, from those questions. I think it took us like back towards people who are already like me in some way, right? Who share, who share, um, some of the same demographic characteristics. So that's,

that's the point I'm making. The second thing is that like, and again, I think like the election throws this up, which is like, thing. The second thing is that, and again, I think the election throws this up, which is how do you stay strong in your principles and strong in your sense of right and wrong, while also entertaining the idea that other people might be right in some kind of way? I want to use the example of like, I mean, it could be anything, God, it could be anything. It could be talking about immigration. It could be talking about trans issues.

It could be talking about anything. But like, it's like, oh, well, I saw my friends going down a gender critical rabbit hole. Like that's the kind of thing that I say. And what that already presumes is, and they're wrong, right? Like the things they're saying are wrong. The things that they're saying chime with these discourses. And I think that like, that one, I think that sort of certainty and that like belief and like the rightness of like our own take or position is like part of why. You know, when I'm talking about the

left, I'm not talking about socialists or Marxists. I'm talking about all the way up to the Kamala Harris's of the world, like bang on centrists. There is this feeling of like, I am so right. I am so right. And I think there is sometimes like a lack of listening or engagement with the other on a level where you could possibly be changed by them, right? Because that is the fundamental of human connection, right? We lose something in connecting with people. I don't feel right at all most of the time and I read, yeah, I'm constantly questioning my beliefs. But like, I think there's a way in which we leap to put the label on other people's beliefs at the expense of hearing

what they've said and where it's coming from. Yeah, but you know that I agree with that. That's why I read all these books by all these different people that I'm like, this is great ideas. And it's by Michael Goh's former advisor. Like you preach to the congregation. I don't think I even label people that much, like maybe in casual conversation, but most of the time I'm like, these are behind the scenes is very much like these are useful ideas. This is a useful thing. This is useful.

That it's just, I think I don't tweet my every thought on the matter because Twitter fucking hates me. So I'm not talking about Twitter at all. I'm not talking about Twitter. So I'm literally just picking up on something that you just said, which is like, talk to friends who went down a gender critical path and this is the way in which I dealt with it. I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm really not saying that's wrong. I'm saying what that speaks to is also something which I do, which is like, yeah, that is putting

a label on someone else's belief. You might be right to, you might be entirely right to, but I just think that's, that's a little seed of this, this broader thing that I'm also contending with. This isn't pointing fingers. I'm looking at the three pointing back at me. Yeah. Yeah. Should we do Miss Connections? Let's do Miss Connections. Maybe, maybe, maybe before we move on very quickly. Like we have just had an argument on the podcast. Yeah, that's great. The listeners are going to fucking love it. Sorry.

That's the engagement city. Yeah, but how are you feeling about it? Maybe we should just... Fine. Oh, Ash, if you thought that was even in the top five of arguments I've had in the last two weeks, no, don't worry. That was a bad argument. That was a discussion. I'm an adult.

This is adulthood. Please do not worry. This is, I wish I could say online. The, how do I put it? The projections and misrepresentations that have been put upon me in recent weeks, but I can't, This was just a discussion. Should we move on to Miss Connections?

Yeah, let's do some Miss Connections. Guys, sorry it's taken me so long to do the Miss Connections, but I was waiting for a good show to do them. So if you have Miss Connections, send them in, but some of these are slightly historic, and by that I mean they were missed a month or two ago. Do you wanna start or shall I? I'd like to start.

Go ahead. All right, Miss Connection numero uno. Wait, before we get into it, how do people submit their Miss Connections to us? They need to think them really hard. And if I'm on the right lay line that day, I'll pick it up. No, you just send it into if I speak or one word at Navara media.com. Right. First Miss connection. First Miss connection. Hi, firstly, I love your podcast. It's incredible. And you two

are just brilliant. Thank you very much. Secondly, this is a submission on behalf of one of my best mates who I love very much and is too chicken to do this. Let's get into it. Five of us were at the pro Palestine demo in Trafalgar Square on Saturday 19th October. At the end of the demo, as we were filing out to go to Downing Street, three of us, all women, my boyfriend and his friend were walking slightly behind, started to walk down there. I said, I don't want to see the counter-protest, it'll make me sad. And a very good looking tall man with ginger hair overheard me and said something along the lines of it's not even a real counter protest it's just one woman on a ladder shouting. My gorgeous gorgeous gorgeous friend Phoebe was laughing loads we all agreed it was a very

funny description and she said see you later I know very angus thongs and perfect snogging. Afterwards I offered to get his number for her but she said no as she was scared but she's tasked me with writing to you both let's fucking have. I reckon he's exactly the kind of guy who listens to this podcast and prop says great gender politics lol. Description for you, he was tall, probably 6'3", ginger white, very smiley, wearing a white or grey long sleeve top with a huge black backpack. You two are some of the brightest minds in UK journalism right now, I've got faith in you please find this man. We haven't had much luck finding anyone yet but maybe we will at some point. That's what I still believe in the ability for misconnections to maybe one day find someone. Okay next one.

I'd like to this one is this one is really funny and I will have something to say after this one okay. I'd like to submit a misconnections to be posted on Insta, please. This person has specified they want it posted on Instagram. Last Paddy's Day's, Paddy's Day, so that is the 17th of March 2023. I went to a local Irish bar in Manchester, the Bowling Green. When I was in the queue for the bathroom, an absolute hottie joined behind me with her mate and I realised she had an Irish accent too. I had no idea how I was going to speak to her but fortunately I heard her friend say that she was desperate to use the toilet so I let them go in front. Her and her mate were super

appreciative and accepted so once her mate had gone ahead I was left alone with the Irish beauty. We managed to have a little chat before the cubicle next door opened and I found out she lived just around the corner. When we were washing our hands, she used the hand dryer after me and it wouldn't work. We were having a laugh about it and she said, I'm going to tell the bar that the pretty blonde girl broke it. I fully fell apart at this. I could not love for the life of me think of a quick flirty comment back.

So I uttered something embarrassing and then we left. I ran back to my mates to compose myself with the full intention of going back to her and asking for her number but as I was getting air, her and her mate left the bar. I spent the rest of the night hoping she would come back but unfortunately she was gone. However, this isn't where the story ends. I was so affected by this brief interaction I contacted the bar and got them to make a social media post on Facebook and I also made a poster that they put up above the hand dryer. I didn't hear anything back but I still held out hope that we'll be reunited.

My mates have rinsed me enough for this but I'm willing to take this even further and post it to thousands to hopefully find this girl. It's not every day a girl you fancy compliments you to your face especially in a straight bar on a Sunday. I have thoughts on this. Ash, do you have any thoughts on this? I know this isn't a dilemma, but I have some thoughts. You hit me with your thoughts. You hit me with your thoughts. Writer, special one, I say this with love.

You need to let go of this fantasy. This person did not come back and speak to you. There is something going on here where you are so attached to the fantasy of a brief interaction over the cold reality of like, just letting it go as a brief moment in time, that you have chased them down on multiple platforms. And even the local bar has put up a picture, a sign trying to find this person. I know the Irish charm is really powerful, but I just think you need to look more into yourself and be like, why did this

two minutes lead me to imprint so hard that I'm still going on about this? And also your reaction when you needed air afterwards. I just think there's more going on here than you had a flirt and you're trying to find them. There's probably more going on here. There's probably more going on here. But as we always say, this is a podcast for overthinkers, self romanticizers and the generally neurotic, we'd be nowhere without you. We'd literally be nowhere. We would have a podcast. Don't be emotionally healthy. You're too sexy. You're too sexy. Okay. Next one. Your one. Okay. Hey, Ashen Moya. This podcast has quickly become my new fave podcast. I look forward to it whenever I see

there is a new episode. I'm a huge fan of both of you, your work, keep doing what you're doing and inspiring everyone. Here is my missed connection. It was Friday 20th of September, I was down at Granary Square where the little market is. I am blonde, 5 foot 1, in my 20s and I was wearing a red top with a long grey denim skirt. A guy, fairly tall, I reckon also in his 20s with wavy blonde hair, who was working on a drink stall, noticed I looked lost and asked if I was okay. Embarrassed, I told him I was trying to find the sign posted, photography exhibition. I walked past later on and we made eye contact. I'm not sure if there was a vibe or if he was just being polite. He was really cute and I've been kicking myself for not chatting longer, slash asking for his number. It's a long shot, but I'd love to find him.

Next one. Oh, wow, this is one near me. Hey, I'm a bit embarrassed to be sending this email but I've enjoyed other people's misconnections so much I thought why the fuck not. Last summer, August 2023, I visited a friend in Glasgow. While they were busy I went to the pub by myself in the south side of the city with my book. In the reality, the book was just an excuse for people watching and eavesdropping, two things I love to do in new cities. Not far from me sat a man, question mark, in his late 20s early 30s with reddish hair, a great smile and a sexy voice.

I think you also had a scar under one of your eyes. You were sat with someone with Down Syndrome that, by eavesdropping, I discovered was your brother. You were so kind and laughed so openly with each other, it made me miss my own family in South America. When you went to the bar, I followed to start a conversation, but your attention was with an older woman who was counting out her coins to pay for her drink. When it looked like she didn't have enough, you subtly paid for her drink, then started up a conversation with her before inviting her back to your table. It was obvious it meant a lot to her. Eventually, we made eye contact. You asked

what I was reading and invited me to join your rapidly growing table. You and your brother introduced yourselves, but I didn't quite catch your name and the conversation moved on. Oh, mistake. You were curious, funny and gave lots of space for others. In the brief moment that politics brought up, you seemed switched on, thus emailing If I Speak lol. When you mentioned that you live in Finland and you were just back from visiting family and friends, my heart sank. Then when you and your brother had to leave I was too distracted and shy to ask for your number in front of everyone else. I never even got your name. Since then I visited Glasgow a few times and have been secretly hoping to bump into you. My friend

and I joke about it a lot and we've even gone back to that same old man pub a few times. On my most recent trip in July, on my last day, my friend and I were on a bus heading to the train station and I looked out the window and there you were! You were chatting with a guy at a fruit and veg stall on Victoria Road. My friend started banging on the window like a madwoman but we were on the second floor and you couldn't see us before the bus drove off. I don't know if you moved back to Scotland if you're just visiting, but it's looking more and more like Glasgow might become home for me. I hope that's not because of this person.

You made a strong impression and I'd love to drink, grab a drink sometime if we're both around as an embarrassed Latin ish Londoner. I'm going to social media person, but if you share my email, but share my email number at what the hell, share my email and mobile number if he gets in contact. I hope he does. I probably can share this with people who live on the South side. You can also share this. Use the networks, use the networks. The networks, the networks. I don't know if the networks allow me that much, but I will use the networks. Ash, next Miss Connect connection. Hi, Ash and more. I love the podcast and your highly skilled dissection of the personal and political great

to discover a place where situationships are given as much airtime as they are in my group chat. Here's a missed connection for you at the NTS street party in Dawson on Sunday, 15th of September around 8pm. During floating point set, I noticed an attractive man to my right. He was blackslush, mixed race I think, maybe lightish eyes, wearing a baseball cap and with a male friend who had longish brown hair. Couldn't tell if the eye contact we kept making was all my own

doing, but after a long day watching the Arsenal Spurs game, god pain, and going to the If I Speak live show, I was feeling a bit too tired to attempt to chirps. In case it was mutual eye contact, I'm a black woman with braids quite tall and was wearing an arse- oh for fuck's sake and was wearing an Arsenal football shirt and a long white maxi skirt. Might be a long shot but I imagine the audiences of NTS and Navarre intersect somewhere on event diagram. It just has to be me helping an Arsenal supporter find love. I just think that look if you're going for a mixed man with light eyes, all I can say is you need to just prepare for whatever's coming to you. Okay?

Okay? Like, mixed race man with light eyes. All I'm saying- We've got another NTS missed connection. Oh my god. Yeah, everyone's at fucking NTS. Well, come on, Ash. If I speak, everyone's at fucking NTS. Well, come on Ash, if I speak, everyone's at fucking NTS.

Half our audience was definitely just down at Gillette Square having a great time. Right, second NTS Square party. This is the place, if you want to meet people, if you're straight and you want to meet people but not talk to them, the NTS party is clearly the place to go. them. The NTS party is clearly the place to go. I was at the NTS square party on Gillette Square on the Sunday the 15th of November. Oh, we know. I was watching the surprise final set of proposing points. I was close to the front in the middle. I turn around and there is this beautiful woman, a few rows behind me. She's wearing a white shirt and had her curly hair up. I would say she's about five, nine, five tennis mixed person of color. Wow, mixed people absolutely cleaning up at the NTS Festival. She was standing next to this guy that was tall and good looking and he was wearing this amazingly designed hat. He's very well dressed. During the gigs, I like to look back at the crowd behind me and see the expanse of it. While doing so,

I caught her eye a few times. She had this dazzling coy smile. I don't know if she was enjoying the music and this was a fantasy in my head but I thought I would try. I was wearing a dark blue windbreaker slash raincoat, I have curly brown hair, mid length with gold rimmed glasses and a couple of earrings. I thought this would be the best way to find them. A shot in the dark as it was only a couple of fleeting glances. Thanks again." Err, well, I'm sorry to say but I think the well dressed man next her was probably her boyfriend. However, there was the NTS party at Tulet Square and you're watching Floating Points, so they could be open. She's like, I saw this gorgeous person and she was standing next to this really good looking guy who looked, who's dressed fantastically.

They are together. They are 110% together. I stand next to very good looking men who aren't my partner. Yeah, but like at the NTS party when you just see each other. Yeah. Okay, well, introduce us to these very looking looking men. I think live in hope. Live in hope. Have we got any more or not? We do not have any more. So this is the place where we must leave our lovely listeners. Okay. Uh, listeners, you've been great as ever. I've got no idea whether you reacted to that episode happily or angrily, but let's just pretend you're all smiling along, out of frame, laughing too. Um, we'll see you next week. Bye! Bye! Thanks for watching!