If I Speak - 41: When do good habits become dark obsessions?

Episode Date: December 3, 2024

Moya and Ash tackle a mystery question about breaking bad habits, with a frank discussion about open relationships, exercise and disordered eating (content warning). Plus, a listener with a question about cross-racial dating, and verdicts on Gladiator II and GNX. Email your missed connections and dilemmas to [e-mail] Music by Matt Huxley.

Hello and welcome to another episode of If I Speak, it's cold, it's wet, it's windy. I also have a cold. So apologies for the nasal delivery in advance with me is the hopefully more healthy Moira Lothian-McLean. Moira, how are you? Are you bunged up? You know that I'm not because we just had a long conversation about how we're not putting clips out because I look like a sickly Victorian child. And I've thrown diva moment where I said, no clips, no clips of me right now. None. It's really annoying because I'd almost sorted my facial eczema and then I made a grave error

and got overconfident and used a new cream on my philtrum. And now it is red again. So I've come to you like a baboon's ass. I think you know what, like you can't see it that much in the camera, the baboon's ass, but I will say that you look like a 1920s flapper girl who's just discovered Lord Denham. Yeah, we said we're in the Zelda Fitzgerald phase. I mean, my Zelda Fitzgerald era. I'm in the Zelda Fitzgerald phase. I'm in my Zelda Fitzgerald era. Ooh, actually, that's a great lead on to our next segment. Oh, which is, oh, you want to do chat first? I wanted to do chat first. I mean, yeah, I'm a chatbot. I feel like we have both had pop

cultural experiences, which have generated opinions. Why didn't you tell me about yours? But mine is just sitting and saying that Gladiator 2 is one of the worst films I've ever seen. It's so bad that two weeks on from watching it, I can't stop thinking about it. I can't stop thinking about it. I nearly sat down and wrote a sub stack about how bad Gladiator 2 was and I was like, no, the world doesn't need this. It doesn't need this. But it's baffled me to see like vulture, the guardian, two different places, some that I don't always agree with, but vulture, I'm usually like, we pretty aligned in the way we see movies. Why aren't they ravaging it the way that the CGI baboons and guardian to ravage no, gladiator to ravage random people. It is, honestly.

There were CGI baboons. They look like, yeah, they're CGI baboons and they look like, you know in modernity how people, lots of films when they want to render a werewolf a bit more like realistic and scary, they take away all its fur. So it's just like a naked animal. That's what the baboons look like. They don't look like any baboons I've ever seen. And it did also make me think about how monkeys feature so heavily in the sort of fevered imagination of the films that have come out this week. So there's scary monkeys in Wicked and there's scary monkeys in Gladiator. And I've seen more scary monkeys increasingly over the years in films. And I'm wondering if monkeys have become the new tigers because

when Gladiator One was out, it was a tiger that was a scary animal. But now we're like, no tigers, we've endangered them. We need to protect them. What is that monkeys, monkeys with their massive teeth, scary as hell. Monkeys are quite scary. Monkeys are quite scary.

My mom, I think I've told this story before, my mom fought a monkey once for an apple. I don't know if you did tell that story. It was her apple. All right. She was completely in the right. They're really scary. I was terrified. I've been terrified when I've seen them.

They have got big teeth. So I get it. Anyway, but gladiator two, there's a lot of recycled IP out there. And a lot of, you know, coming back when we really should have just left something good alone. And I thought maybe I've misremembered how good gladiator one was. And I watched it. I was like, fucking hell, it's good. It's so good. It's so good. Like the first five minutes, the characterization of these people, it's just so tight, so right. You instantly

understand the motivations. You understand what's at play. You understand the stakes. You're invested. I'm sorry to say this, and I hope Paul Maskelle isn't listening. He's not got the blockbuster. He's not got the blockbuster in him. Does he not? He might for another film. I don't think so though. The only times he was really, really good for this and he was working with a terrible script, let me just say that, but the only times he really shone was occasionally when you saw a bit of Connell from Normal People come out. So it was really odd. He's like, he's Art House, quiet, anguish. That is him. This is not the film for that. And also, there's so many

things wrong with this film that I can't even begin to listen because we would be here for an entire episode. It is one of the most offensively poorly written films I've ever witnessed. It's just a recycling of the first events, but without any of the character motivation, any of the emotional beats. It's just like battle scene, battle scene, battle scene, battle scene. Boring as fuck. And the villains, you kind of end up rooting for one of the villains because Denzel Washington is the only person giving any performance in this film. He always gives performance. I mean, like, have you seen, have you seen him in, like, I can't remember which Coen brother,

but one of the Coen brothers did a version of Macbeth and he was in it. And it was sort of shot like Ingmar Bergman's The Seventh Seal. Like it was black and white, like super high contrast, very, very stylized. And there were these scenes where like Denzel Washington, I think he quite clearly was like, I want to work with some younger black actors. I want to bring them into this super high status, prestige Shakespearean production. And there were some scenes where you could tell he was like, you're going to learn today. I'm going to fucking show you acting. And there was sort of a mismatch in energies. Denzel was bringing Juilliard, he is bringing RSC, he is like leaving it all out on the field. And I think that's some of these younger actors were like a bit intimidated by it because

Denzel was Denzel-ing. Well, in this he's not working with Shakespeare dialogue. He's working with dialogue that I could have written. I don't know. Delirious. It is truly the dregs of dialogue. It's chat GPT ass shit. Okay, as I said from my Instagram, this is shit from a butt. This film is so bad. And the main that I won't

I don't even I don't even give a fuck about spoiling it because it's so bad. The ending is a fucking cop out. There's like three different plots going on throughout it. So they make it unnecessarily complicated about what who's the villain, who's not the villain. There's like three different stories happening concurrently that none of them work out all of them are shit. So it's like three layers of shit rather than just one layer of shit. And the ultimate sort of, I don't think really Scott realized this and I don't mean to come at it with my woke ass brain, but the the sort of woke ass brain. But the sort of main plot is that both Paul Mescal and Denzel Washington, whose character is called Macronist, but I am renaming Minoritas because of the way this film works, Paul Mescal is basically like exiled and he comes back and he's like, I

hate Rome so much. I hate Rome. I want to bring Rome down. And Denzel Washington is like, great, because I want to bring Rome down too. And then halfway through the film, and you don't understand why this happens at all or why Paul Mescal changes his mind because loads of scenes got cut. Suddenly Paul Mescal is like, I am the Prince of Rome. We must defend democracy at all costs. And Denzel Washington, you don't understand why this happens. There's no motivation for this change, he's changing his mind. And then Denzel Washington is like, I'm still going to bring it down. And he allies with a character that I can only describe has been characterized by the film as a twink with an STD who's been driven mad by the syphilis.

And both of them are portrayed as gay. So they're both like, here's a gay man with an STD who has a monkey that he thinks is like his top advisor. And he is a gay black man. And both of them want to bring down Rome and we've got to stop them. And then Paul Mescal who has a monkey that he thinks is like his top advisor and he is a gay black man and both of them want to bring down Rome and we've got to stop them and then Paul Mescal is like I was an exile but actually I'm not an exile and I'm not a minority like these losers I'm a prince of Rome and that's the film. It's so shit. I love the idea of like you know so who's the villain it's like someone who's taken

be gay do crimes crimes very, very literally. Literally. It's literally the villain is a gay black man and a twink with an STD. And that's what Ridley Scott is like. These are the threats to Rome. And it's like you've read too much Edward Gibbon, mate. You've read too much fucking Edward Gibbon. Anyway, I'll stop talking about gladiator two. It's very bad. You should and everyone should see it because it's so funny.

But you have to go with the best friend. I laughed my little socks off. Well, I'm really glad that I got that review because now I'm still going to go see it, but I'm not going to go seeing it like with any expectation that's going to be good. So I'm happy. You had a pop culture moment this week though. I had a pop culture moment. So by the time this comes out, it's going to be about a week since Kendrick Lamar dropped a surprise album, GNX. I don't know if we're calling it GNX or Grand National. I don't know what we're calling it. GNX. And I was in the airport, so I was coming back, I'd been in Dublin for work and I was like coming back and I was a bit stressed. The flight had been really delayed, which meant I was going to be late to do the thing that

I wanted to do. And then like, for some reason, like my bag, which is only like a really small bag, got like place with like oversized baggage, which is like kind of on the other side. And I'd been waiting for ages. And I was, you know, and you're just a bit frazzled. You're a bit travel frazzled. And I get really, really travel frazzled. And I was just like, you know,

I was scrolling through my phone and like Kendrick dropped again, like that's just like popped up on my feed. And I'm like, oh my God. And so I just had this like full like 45 minutes like in the airport, like just to experience the whole thing from start to finish, like by myself, no one with me,

no one else to share their opinions about it. And like, I don't know. Like for me, nothing whatever ever, ever touched Good Kid, Mad City. Like Good Kid, Mad City for me is a perfect album. It is a perfect like hip hop album. But for me, DNX is like, it's up there with Damn. I think that it's as good as Damn, like easily. So much love about it.

I love the mariachi music. I love that like for one one song, he's just like, I'm going to like give you a two pack flow because obviously with Drake and Taylor made freestyle, he used the AI to impersonate two pack, but the flow was all wrong. So it like sounded like two pack, but it didn't sound like two pack. And then like Kendrick gives you like a two pack flow. And then there's this one song called TV Off, which like, you may have like heard the meme of by now. So like, it's produced by DJ Mustard, who obviously produced Not Like Us. And like Kendrick waits until the middle of the song to like, give you the, you know, famous DJ

Mustard tag, the like Mustard on the beat hole. And then, so first it's like in the middle of the song. And so I was like on, you know, like a travelator. So it's like, you know, like a flat escalator. So I was like, oh, one of those, like I finally got my bag. Guess the middle of the song, I hear Mustard on the Beat hole. And I'm like, oh, like in the middle of the song. And then straight afterwards, Kendrick just goes mustaaaaard! Like louder and longer than I just did it.

louder and longer than I just did it. Like he just goes fucking like Braveheart, Goku, like stub my toe. And I just started making these crazy noises because I just couldn't contain my like excitement, right? And I couldn't contain how funny I found it. And I couldn't contain how like, you know, the last album Kendrick did, Mr. Morale and the Big Steppers, it's all about like, I've been to therapy, like I've gone to therapy and I like really understand myself as a flawed individual. And I have to like, go inwards to really face my trauma head on so I can be a good person for my family and for the people who I love and for the culture that I love. And then like this album is like I've been to therapy and I've come out a bigger hater than I was before. Like I'm just like yes, yes Kendrick. Like it's not, I wouldn't say it's

a flawless album. Like you know I think that some of them are a bit, some of them to me feel like writing exercises. Like Reincarnated feels like a writing exercise, Gloria feels like a writing exercise, but I was so happy all weekend. And then I just couldn't stop talking about it. I couldn't stop talking about it to the point where my husband was like, I'm gonna listen to this album.

So know that if I don't, I will not be able to understand you. Like I just fundamentally will not get you as a person. So that was my pop culture moment. All right, all right. Hit me with the questions. What section is this? This is 73 minus 70, which is where we ask three questions. Don't want to spoil it for you guys. We ask three questions in case your maths isn't up to it. Okay. This is this question. First one is inspired by the fact that inspired by the surroundings in which I watched gladiator two, which were highly hyped to me. And I found as disappointing as the

movie almost. So what is your least favorite cinema in London? Oh, my least favorite cinema is actually very close to my most favorite cinema. My least favorite cinema is the cinema world in Wood Green. My most favourite cinema is the view in Wood Green. Does the view have the reclining seats? No, there is nothing about it which is nice. It's just cheap and there's like a constant level of like chaos, which I find so funny. Like one time me and my housemate went like for this late night showing of a film. I can't even remember what it was. Maybe it was like which I find so funny. Like one time me and my housemate went like for this late night showing of a film.

I can't even remember what it was. Maybe it was like an adaptation of like an Agatha Christie thing. It was like 10 PM on a Monday and we were like, fuck it, do you wanna go to the cinema? So me and my housemate are there. And then this like guy came in so drunk and then he just started like pestering

like this random stranger who he didn't know for like money. The guy gave him money to shut up. And then he just kept like, every time someone came on the screen, he was like, who is this man? Like, just like yelling. He just like all of his intrusive thoughts win. And it was so funny. And then like he left in the middle of the film. And then after the film ended, me and my husband were like walking down the steps, we saw like all of the cans that he'd like, you know, been drinking and like thrown on the floor. And it was some kind of drink called sex bomb.

Oh, it wasn't the yellow thing, was it? I'm not sure if it was yellow, but like it was sex bomb. Um, so that's my favorite cinema. My least favorite cinema is the cinema world because it cannot compare to the video. Well, thank you for that. Okay. So next question, what do you want for Christmas?

Ah, I don't know. Okay, so next question, what do you want for Christmas? I don't know. Maybe a rug? Any kind of rug or just a random rug? I think like, you know, one of them like super like vibrant dyed Moroccan berber rugs. Yeah, for my room. They're solid. Yeah, very solid record.

Last question in honor of the fact that the tour that seems to have been the longest fucking tour will be ending the week that this goes out. What is your current era? What is my current era? What is my current era? Um... All right.

I'm in my chivroy era. Tell me, translate for non-success... I know she's for succession. I was like, do I know enough to actually peg what era this is? And it's like, you're in your era of being horrible to your husband and then being betrayed by him? Like, is that your era? How do you define this? Translate. Okay. One is that I really enjoy wearing button up shirts at the moment. For me, that is a

Chivroy thing. Two, Chivroy era because my role within the Navara media has changed and taking on more responsibility within the Navara. As you all know, I've become a director of the company amongst six other people. But then also it's like, oh, to what extent am I constrained by my gender in my attempt to do the things I want to do and sometimes feeling flustered by emotion and experiences. So let us move on. This week, our produceral, the power behind the throne, has a mystery question for us. Chal, if you would kindly WhatsApp it to me, I can read it to the people. to break a bad habit or acquire a good habit? Um... Um...

Um... Yes, and I can't talk about it. Oh, what? No, I can't. It's not something I'm comfortable with my mother hearing. Okay. But it would be really good to discuss, but I can't. What was the bad habit that you wouldn't want your mom hearing because you're generally

a very candid person. As this clip isn't going out, I'm going to mime it to you so you can see. I see. Just for the audience, Moira has mimed pegging. Sorry, that's not a bad habit. I just want our audience members who are enthusiastic, both givers and takers as Chappell Rhone says, to know that pegging is a perfectly good habit to practice in their spare time, or their busy time, wherever you want to do it. Pegging, we don't shame pegging here. My voice went up as if I'm really too fast. We don't shame pegging here. We don't shame pegging. We're sex positive. No, I didn't mind that, but

I have broken bad habits. There's habits I want to kick. What about you? I find forming good habits difficult because I think especially when I'm in like a like a sort of like emotionally difficult place, I become very, very paralyzed. So I'm not somebody, I mean, and that's sort of a good thing in that, you know, my bad habits are very rarely that bad or that self destructive or that volatile because not really that volatile a person, but it also then makes it really difficult to form good habits where I'm like, okay, you've got to do things which are about looking after yourself and that will involve leaving the house or like leaving the postcode or reaching out to people. So I think that like, yeah, my

my tendency to be like barnacle like in my ability to like, you know, cling to one place when I feel like not good is something that both inhibits the formation of good habits and bad habits. I think I've definitely broken bad relationship or romantic habits before though. I have formed good habits, but I want to hear what you've got to say before I start talking about how I'm perfect in every single way. My worst habits romantically were so driven by insecurity and a need to feel chosen and a need to feel desirable. And so I kept putting myself in situations like, well, that I look back on it, like I kept putting myself in situations where it was like somebody had to choose me over somebody else. Were you a picnic? Ash, were you a picnic? Well, I think I was a little bit of a picnic if I'm looking back. Can you tell us some examples? Give us some examples.

Yeah, I mean, so I was talking about this the other day with my friends. I had like a side piece era. Like I friends. I had like a side piece era. Like I was like, I was like a side piece to like multiple people. This is like. Multiple? Yeah, I mean, I thought that I was doing like, I thought I was doing non-monogamy. In fact, I was just doing being insecure. And it came from like,

you know, when someone's like insecurity meets someone else's insecurity and it's like, bing. And like, there's a kind of magnetism that comes from it. So like one was like these guys who I think wanted an escape hatch from themselves. And I think didn't feel wholly certain about choices that they made, the direction that their life was taking, and how relationships that they were in kind of closed down possibilities of who they might

become. Right? And then like along comes to me and I'm like the escape hatch. Do you know what I mean? It's like, Oh, things could be so different if I was like with this person. And so like I had a real habit of it. And it wasn't like there was one like massive turnaround, but it was like maybe over a period of like three months where I was like, this is not what I want at all. Like this is not making me happy. This is introducing like drama and other people's volatility into my life, which I hate, which I cannot stand, which I'm like repulsed by. And I could tell

the story one way where it's about things happening to me, other people's unreasonableness happening to me, or I can understand this as like a habit of my own. Like there is a pattern here and. The common denominator is me and it's it's up to me to change that. And so I think like it it was about becoming like much more agentic, being like these choices are mine, like the most powerful thing you have in the world

when you're dating is to decide who not to date. Like, you know, I'm actually so powerful by dating no one. I'm the most powerful of all of my stings. I've said no to everybody. But it was just like, I was like, oh, I can, I can do this. And that sounds so obvious and so fucking basic. But it was just this moment of like, oh, I have more control over this than I thought I did. But yeah, I think that was a bad habit. Being a think that was a bad habit. Being a side piece was a bad habit. What's the difference between a habit and a pattern?

I don't know, you tell me. No, that's not fair, because I asked you, so you had to answer. Okay, a habit and a pattern. There's definitely a difference. A pattern is like, I want to look up if there is a difference between habit and pattern.

I don't know. I think I've been quite lucky. Okay, here you go. You ready? I've got that. I've got the definition before. Actually, I just completely interrupt you. That's a bad habit of mine. Carry on, Ash. Continue. That's fine. That's fine. It's fine. I know, but that was a great notice from me. And another good habit of mine is noticing my flaws.

Okay. A habit is a behavioral expression, something which you do, for example, nail biting or hanging your jacket on a chair instead of a hanger. A pattern is an expression of unconscious beliefs, stories we formed based on observations of ourselves and the world. So I guess, yeah, being a side piece, if you are talking about the actual act of dating, it is a habit, but it's probably also a pattern because if you are talking about the actual act of dating, it is a habit. But it's probably also a pattern, because it's an expression about the stories that you're telling yourself or that you have about yourself. Oh yeah, and the story was about being chosen and like, you know, it's like, why do you

put yourself in situations which are undesirable but feel familiar, right? Comes from a place of insecurity. How did you feel once you stopped being a side piece? Like, did you notice, what did it, but what did it do? Like, did you notice? And how much did it take as well? Cause I'm always very interested in this.

I have a friend who recently took a massive step in ending something for the first time ever. She's never ended something when there hasn't been like a, you know, someone's cheated or someone's done something like that. She's never been the person to just be like, you know what, this isn't working for me. We could carry on, but I'm going to end it. And it's like, you know, it's just a which way, Western man, it's a massive choice.'s literally a before after before ending something after ending something it's changed her fundamentally taking that sort of power for herself as you said realizing oh I have more power than I think and I'm interested in knowing if you at the time really realized when you stopped being this side piece and started

dating and being the only piece as it were. The only that was like for you. The soul piece from side piece to soul piece. From the side piece to soul piece. I mean, it was it was massive. It was huge. Like, so the thing which prompted it was like, you know, I met this guy, like I'm not covering myself in glory at all. Like, do not try this at home kids. And I was feeling so low in my self-esteem at that point. And so unaware of how low I was in my self-esteem. Do you know what I mean?

So it was like, my self-esteem was low, but I thought if I just keep kind of fronting and being out there in the world and like, you know, like running around and like, you know, being social and being kind of like, yes, being active, like active in the streets that like I could get away from like how I was actually feeling. And I meet this guy and like, he just really obviously like fancied me and I was like, oh my god, this feels so great. And we went on a date and then towards the end of the date,

he was like, by the way, I have a girlfriend. I was like, well, it feels like that should have come up sooner, like, but instead, like I think that just activated the bit in my brain, which was like, a situation where I could be chosen over someone else. It went horribly wrong, horribly, horribly wrong. And it was, it was just so selfish and stupid of me. Like it was just like unjustifiable.

Like I feel genuinely like a bit ashamed of how I behaved. Like when- Did the girlfriend know? Or not? She found out and it was- Ah, it wasn't open. No, no. It was horrible for her. And I still feel so angry at myself about it. I feel angry

at myself that I behaved so selfishly. And then I was left with this guy who I didn't really want. And then I was like, time to like end this. Like this isn't, this is not going to be a happy relationship. And I think like after that, where I was like, okay, I've just like really hurt two people, like really, really hurt two people. And that's completely like a result of me being selfish. And it hasn't made me happy either. Like, because I'm also not the kind of person that can be like, lol, like, you know, I've caused chaos, like, I can't do that. Like, so that prompted a lot of like, that like, um, so that prompted a lot of like, I guess, like looking at myself being like, I've got to make different choices. I've got to really look at what the thing is that I want. It's love. It's the, and then like, when I say it, like,

it was a big change. After that, then I dated like one guy, didn't work out, I ended up with him. And then the next person who I met and dated is now my husband. Like it was just like change. Like it made me ready. I knew myself enough at that point to then be ready for a commitment. It's interesting as well I think, because you could have gone down that path further

of trying to fill some large void and insecurity within yourself by just being like, it's not me that's the issue, it's the man that's wrong, on to the next one, on to the next man to chase and get the validation and carried on that cycle. But even at that young age, you didn't. And that I think is both obviously, you know, a testament to the various lessons you've learned somewhere, which maybe counteract to those other lessons you learned, but also like just the person you become, which is, you know, lucky, it's lucky. Some people never learn these lessons. Some people will be chasing it for a long time. Well, I guess I guess it's like coming back to like the habit thing. And it's like,

because I suppose like a habit you can't break or a habit you struggle to make. Because I suppose like a habit you can't break or a habit you struggle to make. Like at the heart of it is like, how much control do you feel you have over your behavior? Right. That's at the core of it. And so I guess that's the question for you. Like, how much control do you feel you have over your behavior? Well, I don't have any bad habits, Ash. So I haven't I haven't copped any bad habits. No, I do have bad habits.

One of them is chewing the skin on my nails, which I stopped earlier this year and successfully after my new year's resolutions. How? Because I just did. But then as soon as my anxiety returned, I've gnawed away at them. Other bad habits that I have, there's physical ones, obviously. I'll scratch my head and sometimes pick off a scab, which is a bad habit, but it's very satisfying. There's, what's, what's like, I'm trying to think of like actual expressions of behavior rather than just like the patterns that I have. Cause my patterns, I have some really, really toxic, terrible patterns, but they don't get expressed as much because often they'll come out in like relation, I think. Like I'm not going out

regularly and performing the behavior of leaving the clutch, like the emotional clothes on the chair. That's not something that's happening. Whereas I'm known for, I think, my, within the people who live with me at least, for my good habits when it comes to sort of keeping a home. Like, my maybe bad habit is how rigid I am in routine. Like, my routines are very ordered. The good habits that... This is what I'm thinking of. It's like, I've got so many habits which society is like, these are really good but in my mind I'm like maybe these don't always come from the best place. So I don't know, like my exercise routine, I've now got it down to two times a week. Sometimes like last week I missed the whole week because

I just didn't have time to go to the gym but I'll make sure I get at least 8,000 steps a day. But that used to be five times a week. Like come rain or shine. At first it would be in my bedroom and I would just do like 20 minutes workout every single day. I would skip things to workout. I wouldn't be eating much. There was a period where I only ate like protein bars. I'm sorry, I should really trigger warning this. We're talking about eating guys. We're talking about eating. Like there was a period when I first in a period in university when I first started wanting to lose weight in a serious manner. It's always been a message on and off.

I remember in high school when a dear family member whose name I will not mention started saying that I was getting fat. I know, but it comes from a certain generation. That thing. Even if I had been getting beyond a size That thing. I, even if I had been getting beyond a size that is considered conventional, even if I had been getting fat, obviously not the way to go about it.

I wasn't, I was a tiny size 10. Like I was a diddy person, but even back then, like those messages come in early, they start to filter in, you know, you think about them. And I don't think my story when it comes to like my eating habits or my relationship with food is at all unusual. But I, you know, I look at photos of myself from maybe like 2016, I was really very like bird like, my head was like quite, I was never, I never thought I was that bad. But I look

back and like, Whoa, I was tiny. And then this lollipop head. Yeah, lollipop head. It wasn't like the very famous. I'm just gonna say it wasn't like fucking Ariana Grande is going through now. Like it was never that bad. It never got to that point. But I was skipping a lot of meals. I was trying to eat. I was like trying to never eat bread.

Like it was it was that kind of vibe. Anyway, that continued, that continued. Then I got into the gym, which relaxed me because I had some form of control now. I didn't have to watch my eating in the same way because I could, well, I did watch my eating, but I didn't have to miss meals because now I had to fuel myself. I think this is a very common trajectory you see. People just move to a different type of control over their eating. My gym habits, people would be like, wow, how do you stay in that shape? Like, it's amazing. It's like. It's.

It's real. And I don't want to say the word sacrifice because it makes it sound heroic. It's not that it's. Sufferance. It's sufferance. There is sufferance that goes into that. The reason I stay in that shape is sufferance. And to this day, I now go to the gym two times a week. I calorie count.

And I'll just say that so people know it, I calorie count. And I calorie count to a degree where it's like, I can still eat lots of great delicious foods. And like, I eat carbs, I eat, you know, I have brownie two times a week. But I also, if someone gives me unexpected sugar, I'm like, I can't eat that. I can't eat that.

I can't, there's so many things that I can't bring myself to eat in the course of a day. There is no sort of spontaneous eating. And if there is, I have to plan it in at least like a few hours before. It's never really spontaneous. I plan in when I'm going to have sugar. Like if I go to the cinema and I'm having pick and mix, and I'm really sorry if this is triggering anyone, but I'm just trying to be detailed so you know what's going on here with these good habits. If I go to the cinema and I want pick and mix, I'm not having lunch. I'm going to have pick and mix instead. And then I'll come back and eat like, I don't know, a large dinner. Like I have all the right things. I have the potatoes, I have the chicken, I have the pasta. I can eat those.

I can go to a restaurant and eat, but I'm never giving myself the maybe letting fully go of what I might want. It's very rare that I'll have the fish and chips. It's very rare I'll have the steak and kidney pie now. It's usually like, I love a butternut squash salad. I love anything with sweet potato. So I'm enjoying it. But could I be enjoying the other thing more? Maybe. I won't be having the dessert. That's the habits. And that's being truly honest. So when you talk about good habits, people think that's a good habit. Is it a good habit? Your face, you look so sad for me.

I know, because I really care about you. I know, but my eating disorders, they're like, they're manageable now. This is the thing, they're manageable. I know, I know, I know. I don't want people to think that this is just, how I look is just a natural thing that hasn't come without sufferance. No, and I think also that thing about like what cancer is a bad habit, what

cancer is a good habit is really important. And I think that like, you know, I haven't always, I would say that I would draw a distinction between my relationship with my body and my relationship with food, because my relationship with my body, I would say still not great, right? Still takes so much work and thought. And like I really rely on like my partner and my friends and like, you know, because the, like it feels kind of dysmorphic, right? Sometimes I don't even know what I'm looking at.

Like, but that's a bit different from, like obviously food has like come into it at various times, but that's not the same as having a bad relationship with food. Sometimes I have a bad relationship with food when I'm having a bad relationship with my body. But I think that in a way, which is quite striking because I don't feel this way, other people are just naturally very sensual when it comes to sex. That's difficult for me. I have to keep that so private and locked away from the world because of how under attack it feels.

But with food, I love it. Do you know what I mean? I love food. I love unexpected eating. I love tasting something new. I love just all that stuff. And I suppose me looking sad for you, it's not coming from a position of superiority or condescension. It's coming from... There is a choice, right?

And the choice I made is that my body size, body fat, that's going to fluctuate. And also like, because I'm a cisgender woman, it's a lot more likely to fluctuate because of like hormonal differences and differences as I get older. And it's like, I've made a choice that I want the experience of food more than I want my body to look a certain way. And I have to remind myself of that sometimes. So when I'm getting like in a, when I'm in like a bad body place and I'm thinking about food and I'm thinking about food differently and I'm thinking about like, like I'll sometimes do this thing, which is like, as you well know, because you've worked with me, if it's 15 minutes after lunchtime, I go fucking insane. I'm just like, where is the where? But like, you know, I'll get into a place I'm like, let's just see how

hungry I can be for how long, which is like, for me, just so stupid. Like, you know what I mean? It's just not. See, I can't do that anymore. This is the thing I have to eat at meal times. Like, you know what I mean? It's just not... But see, I can't do that anymore. This is the thing. I have to eat at meal times. Otherwise, I'll go mad. This is the weird thing. It's not a straight line anymore. It's like, I have to eat six in the door. I have to eat 12.30. If I don't get my fucking food, someone's going to be in trouble. You know? I mean, that's the thing is that like, naturally, I'm like that. And like, you know, it's a reflection of being in a bad body place. Right. And then, and it's almost like punishment.

I go, well, I haven't been disciplined enough with myself. So I have to punish myself with hunger. Like that's how fucked it is. Right. That's how like fucking tapped is. But like the thing which brings me back is like, no, I've made a choice. I've made a choice about the thing that I value and the sensory experience that I value.

And I think in some ways it's helpful to me knowing that I'm not always a good authority on what my body looks like. So I'm like, well, even if you were really fucking thin, you wouldn't know it. So what's the value in it? You wouldn't know. Just eat the fucking Korean fried chicken. Like, you know, you know how that feels and you know what that looks like, you know, makes you feel good. You don't know what your body looks like. Because I look back at photos of myself where like when it was first taken and I looked at it and I was like, what an ogre, like what a disgusting fucking like, and I look back and I'm like, oh, I wasn't a good authority because now I think that's beautiful. So that's kind of, it's like a weird like,

it's like mental illness jujitsu, right? I'm like jujitsu myself to go, I can eat. Well, it is, it is, this is the thing with with my stuff, it's quite, I don't wanna say complicated because I do think it's just like garden variety 101. And it's like, but it feels complicated in your head. In my head, it's complicated because it's like, it's almost not as, it's obviously very linked to my body, but like I'm happy with my body. And like when I did get really thin by accident

a couple of years ago, maybe it was like a year ago, it's like 2023, I went on a big walk around Europe two years in a row. So I got really thin because you're just walking all the fucking time. And I was eating loads, like I was eating way more bread than I did when I came back. But I got really thin because I also had just given up booze and that wasn't driven by any sort of like food stuff. That was for other reasons. But I just lost loads of weight and I wasn't driven by any sort of like food stuff. That was for other reasons. But I just lost loads of weight and I came back and I was like, ah, skeleton.

So I was drinking Huel to put weight on again. So it's not like it's a it's like a there's a simple thing. It fucking veers. It's like one day I can wake up and I might look at my body in the mirror. Actually, so it is linked. I might be like, oh, need to make sure that you're on this, need to make sure you're on this. And then other days I'll be like,

you're like, it's so fine. You're jammy, like just fucking, and when I'm, you know, there will be, there was lots of times where it's like, it's not like I'm fully denying myself. It's like, I will eat the Korean fried chicken. I will eat this thing. I will eat that thing.

But it's like, as I said, I'm never fully allowing myself either. And that's, that's the weather, it's restriction. And it's not as bad as it used to be, but there is restriction involved. And that is where the mental illness is present. And that's where you can see it. And I see it in people who are talking to me, like my housemate now, she's always offering me stuff. And she's clearly realised that I've got something going on because she'll be like, oh, I know you can't have this like right now because it's a Tuesday and you can't eat cookies on a Tuesday. And I remember the other day I was like, oh, I will have a cookie

today actually. She was like, oh my god, amazing. Like, you know, like clearly do like Pavlov's conditioning. And I was like, it's okay. Sometimes I will do it. I just won't. And if you, but if you look at the way I cook food and make food, it's like I'm making fresh organic stuff. It's like delicious quinoa salads with tahini dressings full of sweet potatoes and carrots and kale and all these things, nuts and chickpeas. I'll do a big tray bake or whatever of chickens and there'll be butter and garlic and all these things. So you might not realize it at first, but if you there'll be butter and garlic and all these things. So you might not realize it at first,

but if you actually lived with me and got to know me and went out and ate with me and saw what I was choosing and when I was choosing it, you'd realize what's going on. And it's not bad enough that I'm the subject of worry for my friends, but those who've been friends with me a long time are aware of when it's been really bad, now it's at a level out and it's only the fact that I have like the gym and exercise that means I don't go mental and that's the weird thing. It's a horrible equilibrium,

I would say. I think it's that thing where like, you know, when we think about disordered eating, we often think about it in terms of the amount of food that's going into a body or the amount that somebody is purging. And of course, those things are hugely important, not least because of the impact that they have on a person physically. But there's also like the mental labour of it. There's the amount you think about food, there is the way you think about food, that's the real estate that that takes up in your brain when you could be thinking about other things. That's the real estate that that takes up in your brain when you could be thinking about other things. You know, you cultivate habits to manage that, but those habits are also an expression of that.

Yeah. I suppose like maybe to sort of bring this round to a close is like, what is your best habit? What's your worst habit? And expanding it beyond, I guess, behaviors, but maybe other like emotional habits that you're in. So much good, so much, behaviours, but maybe are there like emotional habits that you're in? So much are good, so much are bad, like, and maybe. I think the emotional habits are the patterns though, maybe. Maybe they're the patterns. Well, I guess, all right, if we're thinking about habits

as a way of managing something that goes on in your head, right, what's your best habit, what's your worst habit? No, because it's a tragic story, because I would say my best habit is my adherence to strict like dietary and exercise routine as well as being my worst habit. It's both my best and my worst because it keeps me sane and it keeps me healthy. Like if I went to the doctor, God willing, they'd look at me and be like, you're in perfect health. Well done. You know, like I've, do you know, actually it's probably

flossing. I floss all the fucking time. The dentist loves that. But like on the one hand, my dietary and exercise habits are exactly what we're told to be doing. But then as I said, if you dug into them, you'd see there was a darker reasoning behind why they are the way they are. And like gym two times a week and walking, you know, taking a walk every day is very, if you wrote that down on paper, that is normal and balanced. But the mental labor that goes into maintaining that is not. So I'm picking them as my best and worst. What about you?

Okay, best habit, very, very soppy. It's incredibly soppy. I make sure that like, I tell my partner that I love him multiple times a day. And it's like important because it's like, you know, people piss you off, right? People are fucking annoying when you live with them. People are annoying when you are with them all the day.

And it is a reminder to them and a reminder to you how you feel about them. So it can't just be and I love you like I love you. Like it has to be like a real like I love you. It has to be more than once a day. And it has to be a real like that. And that's an important habit. Because also like life, work, stress, the world, like it, it crowds out like it becomes incredible. How little space the most important relationships in your life can take up when it's being crowded out by all those other things.

And so I think this isn't just a romantic relationship thing. I think it's like whatever relationship in your life is sort of the primary bond, whether it's like family or a friend or a housemate or a partner, whatever. It's like saying that you love them multiple times a day and meaning it and thinking about the words, very, very good emotional habit to get into. Bad habit. I guess like I'm fucking

addicted to social media. Like I'd like check it all the time. And anytime someone's racially abusing me, I'm like, Oh, let me read it. Like, what the fuck is that about? Like, yeah, dumb bitch. Like, why am I reading that? Yeah. I should have picked social media. No, I think my food stuff's probably worse than social media, but I think that is a perfectly legitimate bad habit to pick. And I do wonder if we lived in a time where social media didn't exist, where would our instincts that drive us to do these things or punish ourselves, where would they go?

Where would we be putting them? Be interesting. I guess it's just like, you know, human beings are compulsive creatures. Like, you know, like we are animals, all animals are compulsive. And we think that just because we've invented opera and like, you know, skyscrapers and like books, that we've got a capacity for self-reflection that we are not compulsive but all animals are. Shall we get on some dilemmas? Yeah, let's go into our compulsive little special ones. Also, a lovely thing that hates happening is when people come up to me and podcast listeners, they identify themselves as special ones. And yeah, I can't remember which special one it was, you came up with

the name or whether it was you. Cause someone came up with if I'm in big trouble. And then I think someone came up with special ones and I can't remember if it was in pod or out. Special ones was me. Special ones was me. And I didn't, I wasn't sure, but you know what Ash? Fucking master stroke.

So catchy. Maybe we should even do merch with special ones at some point. Like I'd wear it. It was a special one you came up with, I'm in big trouble though. Yeah, yeah, yeah special one you came up with. I'm in big trouble though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They came up with I'm in big trouble.

Credit to them and we will find their name out again because we do need to credit them properly. But I would happily wear a cap, I must say, which is my measure of all successful products with a cap that says special one because people will think I'm referencing Mourinho and the people who know will know I'm referencing the pod and I would love to do that. So this is our regular Dilemma segment. It is called I'm in big trouble and if you're in big trouble and you would like our advice and you won't see us if we get bad advice, what's the email address, Moira? If I speak at navaramedia.com.

I nearly forgot. I nearly said it. I didn't know that's why I asked you to do it. Cause I was like, I can't remember what it is. I was like, if I'm in big trouble. No, it's, I'll repeat that one more time. If I speak at navaramedia.com. Keep them coming because also they come in throughout the week and then I can read them

when I'm walking around the town, which is nice for me. The town? What is the town? You know, like, it's like when you go to town in London, it's like here I'm walking around the town. I'm often walking around the city centre on my walks. On my disordered eating walks. Only people not from London call it town.

No, when you go to town in London, you go to town. No, central. I think it's town now, sorry. Would you like to read it out? Yep, I would. Dear co-pilot and co-conspirator. Comrade. Comrade. Listener from day one, fucking hell. Listener from day one, first time emailer here. I'm a South Asian cis straight man in my 30s who has been dating on and off in London for the last 10 years. Lately I've found myself increasingly hesitant to date or even swipe on white people. More recently I've started filtering out anyone who isn't a person of colour whether

on dating apps or IRL. Is this fucked up? For context, I've had many relationships with white women when I was younger, the longest being six years, that were full of love and hugely influential in shaping the man I am today. But as I've matured, I've become more politically and socially aware, and have developed a deeper understanding of my cultural identity and my place in the society as a man of colour. I didn't grow up in a community of people like me and found myself in very white spaces throughout school, university and work. It's

taken me years to recognise how race impacts daily life and to unpack the internalised racism that likely influenced why I ended up in those spaces in the first place. My relationships with women of colour, by contrast, have had a level of mutual understanding I hadn't experienced before. Nothing is perfect, but there's a shared experience around our families, upbringings and how we navigate the world that we don't have to explain to each other and always make space for. Part of me is okay with this selectivity, after all dating is inherently about personal preferences, but another part worries it might not be constructive. Am I unconsciously perpetuating gross old ideas of segregation or race mixing? I see parallels with conversations I've had with

women friends who've stopped dating men or taken long breaks because cis het men often fail to meet their standards for addressing everyday sexism, unpacking their internalised misogyny or meeting emotional slash relationship goals. So as a man of colour, I find that white women in my life haven't met my standards for understanding racism, therefore I'm tapping out. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this minefield. Thanks! PS. If I speak drinking game, take a shot when Moira breaks into a husky song or when Ash begins her analysis with I mean… I did already sing this episode. So I've been dragged to hell. Someone the other day messaged me about remembering

when I used to work, do shift work at their workplace and they got complaints of someone because I was singing. I was really surprised that you didn't start singing Bad Habit, like I was so tempted when you took about biting your skin. No, it's like I bite my tongue, it's a bad habit. Oh, that, oh, the Steve Lacey one. It's because, do you know what?

I don't actually like that Steve Lacey song much. I think his other stuff's better. I do prefer his other stuff, but it's catchy as fuck. It is, but I think I missed it. I was just like, not on the right side of TikTok at the right time, and I didn't listen to the album full, so I missed it, but I didn't. Yeah, sorry. I did sing earlier and I can't remember what it was anyway dilemma is this reader perpetuating segregationist ideas by only wanting to date women of color?

I mean Moira you're a product of race mixing why don't you uh yeah and do you know what sometimes the person who produced me says some funny shit about that. All I say is, if I want to have a conversation about racial preference, there is a racial preference that ended up with me and that's all I'll say. And maybe we should talk about that sometime, but I don't actually think necessary. I don't know. I used to have really strong views on this about this idea of racial preference. I even wrote an article on it and how it's rooted.

You know, there's this one side of the fetishization, the other side is like, I don't want to date outside of my ethnicity. Also this idea of racial preference is actually ethnic preference because we're all one race, the human race, but let's just call it racial. It just fucking annoys me, right? There's ethnicity and then race, but races are completely We're all from Pangaea.

Yeah. And it was a wonderful time. I remember the days of Pangaea. We all used to go dancing in the trees. I remember riding the Diplodocus. In the Diplodocus in Pangaea. Everyone got off with everyone. No one saw colour in Pangea. We hadn't developed those cells in our eyes yet. We didn't actually have retinas in Pangea. Okay, anyway, sorry, back to your very serious problem. It's really hard because I do find it very difficult because I don't think there's a hard and fast rule on it. It's like, I do think there's mixed up ideas behind it, which are worth interrogating. So when you're

saying stuff like, you know, these women of colour, they just get me, our upbringings are similar, it's like, that's not going to be true of every person of fucking colour. You've selected people who you have things in common with, and therefore you're getting on, and maybe there's a bit of confirmation bias, but you have more things in common perhaps than the white people you've dated simply by dint of being of colour. So it's like there's things that you would have in common with the white people you dated that you won't with these people, but they obviously matter less to you than this thing. And I think, I think that's maybe the element we're picking up on here. But is this bad?

I don't know, you let the white people have a crack at you for a long time. They've had their go. They had a good go. And they could not tame the beast. Well, I have a feeling what will happen is, because I've went through a similar sort of weird thing where I grew up in a very white environment. I sort of like my early, you know, dating experiences with white people. Then I came to London and I immediately went, fuck no, like I'm actually not that into the white demographic. Because

now I'm faced with all these beautiful people of different ethnic origins. And then you know, dated loads of different people. Then I got to my mid-20s. I had a very serious relationship with a white person. A white man. Can you believe? Now I'm at the kind of... But then in the last few years of dating apps, I did go through periods when I would select just people of color. I didn't do this because I just wanted to take people of color. I did this because otherwise Hinge does not show you people of color because its algorithms are so racist, they won't come to the top. So I had to select that as a deal breaker because only then could

I train it that I also did like brown people. And then I could put it back on a full mix where it would start showing me like brown and black people again. But that was, that was really like a practical thing rather than I'm just selecting people of color. I don't think there's a select answer like I know people who will literally date within their ethnicity. I'm kind of at the point where I'm like, if it's for racist reasons where you're like, I'm a white person who's not dating any of these black people, I'm kind of like, why should you want to force them to do that? Why would you put that on the people of colour? Why do you want that racist

person so desperately to go out and date people outside of their ethnicity if they're that against it? That they're literally like, no. And I kind of think the same for the flip side. It's like, there's so much to worry about in this world. Yes, interrogate the reasons behind your preferences. I say this to people all the time, like, why do you think this? Like, how have you come to this conclusion? But when it comes to actually like changing the behavior proactively, who's got the fucking time? Like, sorry, who's got the fucking time? There's so many people in this world. Date, so long as you understand what you're doing, and maybe the problems within it, then keep dating who you like. Although I would, again, there's, you know,

there's the white people like, I must date a mixed race person. I must date a black person. And they have, I'm like, no, actually, you should just stick to my bucket list. Do you know what I mean? It's like, they kind of have to like, tick it off. But then no, but the ones who are really fetishizing, that's another thing. It's like them with the fetishizing, like, no, actually, you should stay away. So there's no one fucking answer. It's just really hard. So on a case by case basis, what I would say is, I think, I think, yeah, there's probably you're probably having like a, what's the word? Like you've gone from one extreme to the other. And I imagine you'll end up somewhere in the middle. But for now, we'll do the interrogation

for you. And I'm sure Ash is about to. But don't sweat the small stuff anymore. You've done you you've done a long innings with the white people. Now you can do long innings with everyone else. Because you haven't specified there's any specific ethnicity, you're just like everyone else, other, in a capital O. And then you can get back to the middle ground and just date everyone. All right. Declaring my interest, my register of romantic interest is that I am married to a white man. I am not a product of race mixing. This is 100% Bengali. Pure baby.

You only get this kind of like, this nose, 100% Bengali, all right, 100%. But my stepdad was white. Such a weird, it's so weird for me still using the past tense because it's like, well, it's not like he was white. Then he switched. He was white until the very end. He's still white.

So he's still white. He's still white. Um, you know, ethnicity follows you into the afterlife. Um, I see memories up until a certain point, which Aaron pointed out in the day. Cast your memories up into a certain point, which Aaron pointed out in the day. Anyway, there's a lot of mixing in my family and in my direct world. My sister is with a Bengali guy, but he's from a different religious background. My mom is Muslim, my biological dad, Hindu. I'm Muslim. My sister doesn't really feel that, you know,

not particularly heated about it either way and married a Hindu guy. You know, that's a different kind of difference. And I think that, you know, particularly for her husband's family, you know, religion was actually quite important and like wanted the wedding ceremony to be religious and you know, the sort of milestones in her daughter's life to be, you know, Hindu religious. And if, you know, if my sister had felt more strongly about her Muslim heritage, that might be something which produced a kind of conflict, right? Same ethnicity, same part of the world. There is a difference there. There are also, and I know this is really obvious stuff, but just because you've got the same ethnicity and maybe

even the same religion, that doesn't mean you've got the same experiences of race and identity. Those things vary hugely by geography, by class, by, you know, all these different things. This is going to sound so fucking banal. And it's one of those banal things because like, it's true, like people are people, and they will always find ways to surprise you. And the thing that you're always doing in a relationship is you're looking for the combination of things that you have in common and the things that are different. And the things that are different are both sources of excitement and attraction and also sources of irritation, difficulty, and conflict. For me, taking a step back from my partner and looking at him in abstraction, the things that we have in common, really

massive things, politics and sense of political commitment I think would have been really, really difficult to have a relationship without that and certain things to do with like values and habits, things we enjoy. Big differences, geography, he's from up north and obviously race, ethnicity, right, like hugely different. I could find another South Asian man whose ethnicity is the same, religion is the same. Maybe his declared politics are the same, but because he wasn't raised in a single parent family, which then became a blended family, which was mixed ethnicity, we'll have profoundly different experiences. And the making or breaking of a relationship is always like,

how you feel about those differences and how you navigate them together. So I think it's completely fine to set a kind of criteria where you go, well, I want to have ethnic background or religion in common, or I want to have, you know, ethnic background or religion in common, or I want to have politics in common, or I want to have web. I think that's fine. You know, I think that consciously or unconsciously, that's something that we all do, right? We might not even be aware of it. We set those criteria all the time. But don't expect that to make a relationship simple. Do not expect that to make a relationship easy. And do not expect that to mean that you have had the same experience because you probably

haven't. There are these sort of things which are irreducibly different and that's the spice in the sauce. That's the grit in the oyster. that's the thing which makes a relationship interesting. I suppose my one thing where I'd be wary of special one, this doesn't mean don't do it, but it just means be wary of it, was that I've known people of color who were raised in very white settings who felt so... It was a really difficult experience. They just did not feel understood. They felt that they had to make certain parts of themselves really, really small. They felt that they had to assimilate in ways which looking back on, they did not like, made them feel ashamed. And then sometimes they can go the other way and they look at finding a community of people of color and in particular relationships, romantic relationships with people of color is like, I'm coming home. And there's too much weight of expectation on it because then the person of color who you're dating becomes a totem

for something rather than a person. A person with the capacity to surprise and to disappoint and to excite and to produce moments of wonder and moments of conflict. That's all I'll say. Criteria fine, just don't expect too much of it. Yeah, don't use them as a vessel for reparations on your own racial experience. Yes, how we don't do it. Don't do it. Okay, well, I think we've done enough experiencing for one episode.

I feel I've experienced. I've experienced so much. I've experienced so much. Let's wrap this show up. I was trying to think of like, let's get this show on the road, but that's when you start something. Let's get this road on the show. Let's get this road on the show. I've been Moilo the McClane. Who've you been?

I've been Ash Sarker. Goodbye. Bye. I'm Joi from Moilo the McLean, who've you been? I've been Ash Sarker. Goodbye!