If I Speak - 43: How far would you go to be yourself? w/ Amrou Al-Kadhi

Episode Date: December 17, 2024

Moya and Ash talk to writer and director Amrou Al-Kadhi about his brilliant debut film, Layla, which follows a young drag queen in chaotic pursuit of self-expression. Plus, advice on how to handle a partner with a porn addiction. Email your missed connections and dilemmas to [e-mail] Music by Matt Huxley.

Hello and welcome to If I Speak, broadcasting from the season of Burnout and Seasonal Affective Disorder. With me, as always, is co-pilot, co-conspirator, comrade, Moira Lothian-McLean. Moira, how are you doing? I'm doing so good. I think we have to talk about this at some point. We have to just say it. Hot assassin. Hot assassin. Hot assassin. Let's introduce the third party

to our hot assassin discussion. And then we can talk quickly about hot assassin, Ash. We are joined by Amru Al-Khadi, author, filmmaker, drag performer, whose first feature length film, Layla, is out in cinemas now. We are gonna talk about it in some detail. Amru, where do you stand on sexy United Health alleged assassin?

I'm just glad that this new story did not break during Brat Summer because I think it would have just, I think the internet would have just collapsed forever. It's already, I'm bored of it, I mean I'm already tired. The gays have already gone too far, but I'm glad he's hot. Within seconds of the alleged assassin's identity being revealed, I was on his Instagram page because someone had served up before we got taken down. And already my gay friends were liking the pictures. They were there. They were liking those pictures. And the memes are already... It's already historical and it's been a night.

Like it already feels like it's been embedded in my culture for like a decade. It's so weird how that happens. It's going to go on for a long time as well because the trial, he's now been charged I think, if there is a trial, there will be a trial. The trial is going to just amp this up times 10. I mean we don't know anything really about his political beliefs. There seems to be quite an incoherent from the trail that's been left across the internet. But I think maybe at some point we should do a show on the hot assassin and whether it actually matters. What is the person of political beliefs are? I think that he actually got less hot after his identity was confirmed. And then there

was like all of this material that you could troll through because when there was just these sort of like kind of these moments like these flashes like before he committed the assassination he was like flirting with like allegedly committed allegedly committed thank you so much for supplying the allegedly allegedly committed the assassination not allegedly hot just just so we're all clear um but like the the like moment of like flirtation with the cashier and a sort of like wolfish smile, I would say. Definitely wolfish. You could just project all sorts of things onto him, right? And he was sort of like ethnically ambiguous, strong eyebrows, bit blurry.

Like anyone could project their own fantasies of a man onto him. And then the more real he becomes, the less sexy he is to me. You say that Ash, but if I could present to you the mugshot of the Hot Assassin. Yeah, that's brazy. Is that the mugshot? That's the mugshot. That was the mugshot of when they arrested him, when they detained him. And also people have found his Tinder profile. Oh my god.

What? Yeah, yeah. There's a logo. We'll talk about this at LACETO. We'll have found his Tinder profile. Oh my God. What? Yeah, yeah, there's a whole thing. We'll talk about this at LACETO, we'll have to talk about this at LACETO. Yeah, yeah. Because there's lots to go over with the Hot Assassin and- Good, he's gonna get such a good agent. Or at the moment because-

He's gonna get such great representation. He doesn't need a good agent, he needs a good lawyer, Amru. I love that's where you went, you went agent. I love that, okay. He's gonna be so, I know Ryan Murphy's gonna do a show, surely. Ryan Murphy is calling up.

He's gone down into the cellar and he said to his gaggle of assembled hot hunks, he said, one of you is gonna get the role, fight it out. That's what he's talking to them right now. Locks the door behind him and like kind of shuts the little window cover. Moya, it's time for our traditional icebreaker, which you are administering to our willing victim, aka guest.

Amri, this is 73 questions minus 70. So I'm going to ask you three questions, which we claim a quickfire, but sometimes more penetrating than a therapist would ask. Inspired, inspired just by that very recent conversation. My first question now is Luca Guardino or Ryan Murphy? For what? As filmmakers, as directors, as people who gather together gaggles of hot hunks and put them on screen. Uh...

What's his name? Lugui? Luki? How do we... Luca, Luca. Luca Guadigno. Luca Guadigno. Oh, sorry. I thought we were talking about the... the murderer still, sorry. I would say...

I would say, I would say Ryan, I'd probably say Luca was more elevated or whatever, but I don't know, Ryan just gives it to you all the way within the first shot. Someone's in a jock strap or you see someone's abs. Usually with like, you remember in Call Me By Your Name, like even the sex scene, as they started going for it, they just panned to a tree, you know, in the sex scene and call me by your name. So Ryan does not pant to trees. He just shows you. He panders. Ryan panders. There's no tree panning. I see Luca Guardini and Ryan Murphy as like Mario and Wario. So then you can decide which one is which. But it's like they both gather together, beautiful hot men and serve you homoeroticism on TV.

Luca like gestures at it in quite a clever way. Whereas Ryan's the McDonald's of hot men, isn't he? Yeah. You don't want to have to work for it. That's the vibe I'm getting. You're like, you know what? I work hard in the rest of my life. I want the jockstrap within five seconds.

Don't make me imagine what's there. My imagination works hard. I don't know if there'll be as much gesturing in queer, which is Luca Guadini's latest project, which is the one with the American Harris Dickinson, Drew Starkey. So we'll see, because everyone's going about Daniel Craig showing hole. So let's see if finally, Quardinio takes a page out of Ryan Murphy's book. Anyway, question two, hardest part of making a film? Hmm hardest part of making a film for me it's the edit because when you're making it, you are so present in just having to get through the day

and think on your feet and work with actors and production designers that, you know, you're just in it and you're very present. And then the edit, once you've spent all this money and you're just faced with the permanence of what you've done and you can't, I mean, you can edit it, but for six months, you're faced with your mistakes. And if you've got OCD or anxiety, you just sit in a room for six months going like, okay, so I put the lamp there and that doesn't look good.

That's what I have to look at now. So it's a process of grief for me, the edit, on what you didn't do. Wow. Okay, that was a therapist question. That was actually quite penetrating. Okay, question three, biggest ick. My biggest ick? When people say,

oh, that's so me, like five times within one evening about like everything. Like if someone else is telling a story and they've been like, oh, meet so me. And it's like you've gone from like a story about, you know, being a doctor to family to isla. And then you're like, what are you? Does that make sense? In what way is that you? Yeah. This is not about this is about me. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, sir, you're from Snaresbrook. Like, I don't think that this applies.

Exactly. Does the that's so me thing hold up as an ick, even if you're like watching a film together and like something stupid or ridiculous happens and you go, it me, is that still an ick or is that allowed because it's self-deprecating? I say this as someone who's addicted to self-deprecation. During a film it's fine, but if it's, you know, an astronaut who's just saved mankind and someone was like, classic me, I'd be like, what? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Just like, Jumanji like going into the game. Ah, Somi! I would so

go into that game. Hahaha! I think that's really funny. I think that if I was around someone delusional enough, like, you know, if someone's like winning a Nobel Peace Prize or something, I like so me.

That I really like. That I really related to that person actually yeah. See I think that I think that you're just changing your mind on it because I said that's something that I do and you don't want to say that it's a nick to my face because it would break my heart which is nice. You've never egged me. Oh my god you say this after I'm already married Amru. Where were you? Where were you? Anyway moving swiftly on this week. I have an intrusive thought An inkling which has been haunting me ever since I went to watch your film Amru. So I had the pleasure of going to see Leila about a couple of weeks ago. What was great about it was even though you told me a lot about the process of making

the film, I had no idea what I was going to see. Like I just had zero preconceptions. I was like, there's somebody called Leila in this film. I don't know who it is. Could be the main character, could be a dog, could be the name of a ship. No idea. So zero preconceptions. And that meant that I could go in really open and just sort of let it happen to me. And what I got from it was a film which refused simple heroes and villains. It occupied different genres at different times.

So sometimes I was like, ah, yes, I am watching a comedy. And then I was like, ah, I am watching simple heroes and villains. It occupied different genres at different times so sometimes I was like, ah yes I am watching a comedy and then I was like, ah I am watching quite a like painful drama and it would like take you through those different beats and different moments and there was a protagonist who was kind of an asshole sometimes and you as the filmmaker were quite comfortable with that which I liked. I like it when the main character isn't always virtuous or kind of saintly in their martyrdom to like other people. So quick plot for those who haven't seen the film. It centres on a Palestinian non-binary

drag performer called Layla, their inability to reconcile different parts of their life and identity, and their relationship with a sweet but conformist twink called Max. And so this is the spoiler alert. The relationship with Max breaks down, at least in part, due to the fact that he doesn't seem to place the same importance on authentic and creative self-expression as Layla does. And that is what made me, I guess, think about or question, how important do I actually think self-expression is? So is the pursuit of authentic self-expression the highest form of good?

Like, is it even reliably good? Can it take you in bad directions as well as good and fulfilling ones? Are Layla and Max making different moral choices as well as personal ones? And is self-expression always about your own identity? Is it always about the shaping and creating of yourself or are there ways which aren't necessarily individualistic and take you towards other people. And so obviously I've got a job where I express myself

all of the fucking time, maybe too much. It's literally what I get paid to do. And maybe it's the case that because I've got so many opportunities to express myself, I underestimate how important it is because it's just such a huge feature of my life. I almost don't see the wood for the trees. Um, I've never had to live without the ability to express myself.

But when I was watching the film, I did feel a bit like, Oh, I think I'm a bit more max than Layla. So basically, I guess I think that self-expression is secondary to my desire to connect with people and keep them around me. So Amru, let's start with you because you made the film. I know that characters aren't simply saying things that you think, but in this way, did you put any of your own point of view

in these characters about self-expression and the importance that it has? That was a very beautiful rund rundown thank you for that Hush um I love that that was your response to the film um I suppose for me like the film is obviously about a drag queen and drag is so central to the film, not just when Leila is in drag, but just the whole film is a sort of, I call the film a drag queen in the sense that it,

it performs a lot of identities throughout the film, whether that's genre or just visually. And when you meet Leila, they are a hyper confident drag queen who seems to be able to uncompromisingly present themselves and then the film switches and you realise that they're not always like that and actually they lie a lot and they're really, really badly behaved.

And so I think definitely, you know, especially in the film centred around Pride Month and the whole opening of the film is that like a corporate Pride event, you know, especially in the film centered in pride around Pride Month and the whole opening of the film is that like a corporate Pride event, you know, which is a sort of nod to the fact that like kind of neoliberal ideas of being queer is being yourself is the end point and for Layla when you meet them them being themselves is a bit of a lie or it's a bit of a when you meet them, them being themselves is a bit of a lie, or it's a bit of a kind of forced presentation of, I know who I am, I want, I am who I am.

End of discussion. And I suppose there was a sort of critique, and definitely in a lot of presentations of drag, whether it's on Drag Race or wherever, it's once you're in drag, you are yourself and you've been freed. And actually, for Leila, when they're in that state, as you watch throughout the film, you realise it's a complete fiction, because it's like a sort of performed or commodified sense of being true to yourself. And actually, they cut off all these connections within their life. And so that is like a tension that I don't know if the film fully resolves, but I

don't know if it has to, but I am really interested in how the end goal of so much of kind of queer liberalism is I am what I am. And it's like, what does that actually mean? Because within the film, without trying to kind of destroy plot, Leila's being who they are uncompromisingly involves cutting off some quite important people in their life, including really wonderful people. However, I think, and this is, I'm sure a lot of queer people can relate to this, and this is something that I think about all the time, is I think if you are in a society or maybe a conservative family unit or whatever, or maybe you had a really, you were really kind of repressed growing up, the cost of not being yourself or not expressing

yourself, it feels so violating because you literally just feel, you know, castrated in a sense that self-expression becomes the most important thing to you. And I actually think that can actually be a bit of a trauma response. It's definitely something that I've been thinking about a lot in just therapy and that kind of stuff that, you know, my therapist always says, my God, you just knew who you were from a young age. And I'm like, actually, but I didn't because I was in my early 20s doing drag and saying I knew exactly what I thought and this is who I am. It's probably just a reaction to being told you're not allowed to be this. And so that is, I think, a real tension as well. This sort of like, when you're forced to shout about who you are because you're told

you weren't able to be who you are, it's like, where's the authenticity in that? So I guess the question for me is then the like, relationship between authentic expression and just expression, because I think there is a difference. I suppose like what is that difference? Like is it about a comfort with people finding you

on their own steam rather than you having to work overtime to create this really loud billboard of yourself to try and get people to come into your orbit. Yeah, I mean, it's so tricky because I'm so inspired by drag and I am a drag queen. I love to shout about who I am, but I think in Layla, it's exploring that within the tension of like complicated human relationships with family and friends. And part of the reason

that Layla is lonely or things don't work out is they reject people before they have a chance to get rejected on an internalised assumption that they don't get who that they're not being accepted, particularly with a member of Leila's family who is really reaching out throughout the film to say, I don't care about any of this stuff. And Leila's own internal narratives, which do come from trauma, and do come from society is well you're not going to accept me because you know you're Muslim therefore I'm going to tell people that you don't accept me and I'm just going to reject you before you have a chance to reject me and actually I think Leila

is complicit in a bit of kind of Islamophobia within the film in the sense of telling their white lover some narratives about their sister that aren't true. And I think it's because those narratives are more legible within this identity that they're expressing. And so I guess the film is also just about allowing yourself to live in the in-between of things. But I definitely get how hard that can be sometimes. Like I've definitely, like for instance, I have a very complicated relationship with my family, but I speak to them and I love them. If I'm being really lazy and some white person says,

how's it going with your parents? I go, oh, just, you know, they're just the most concerned. You know, you just, I don't talk about them. I just, just, they're an end of discussion. And they go, oh know, they're just the most concerned, you know, you just, I don't talk about them. I just, just the end of discussion and they go, oh wow, fuck, probably really conservative Muslims that's really hard. And maybe I've confirmed something rather than going, actually it's not really got anything to do with Islam. The big issue that I have with my family is that my mom never really got to have, she was married very young, never really got to have freedom. She's very jealous of the fact that I'm a drag queen and have a lot of freedom and it's a lot about that.

And that's just quite complicated because it's just naughty and emotional and so it's easier to just say classic Arab, you know, Muslim woman, you know, and then I've done something quite problematic there and I think there's a cost to that kind of self-expression there if that makes sense. No that does make sense and I suppose like I wonder what you think about this Moira because one of the things we talk about a lot on this podcast is like the branding of the self that happens on social media and trying to shape your self-presentation, like in line with categories which are recognizable to other people.

And I suppose my question for you, Moira, is like, is that a creative act? Can that be a liberating act because it demonstrates a kind of autonomy and like, you know, ability to self- self author, or is it, is it a kind of conformism, which, you know, sure, you might not be a corporate twink like Max's, but you're still sort of attaching these like, quite defined labels on yourself, even if you're saying, well, my label is I refuse categorization, you're still sort of saying something which

is like very, very definitive about yourself so that other people are trained in how to interact with you. I think that's a great question, Ash. And yeah, it's one that I don't want to answer because I don't have an answer for it, but I do actually have a different question that I wanted to ask. You are welcome to pose that to Amru. I don't know if I have that much to say about sort of presentation on social media per se.

I'm sure we'll get onto it, but when we were talking, I was thinking more about a couple of things. I was thinking about personal writing for a start because that's something I engage in. Amru, I'm sure both your own writing and also your shows are something that brings in other people. Like we just talked about your family,

your mother on this podcast. We talk, me and Ash, a lot about ourselves, but none of this stuff exists in a vacuum, right? It exists always in relation to other people. Other people are the catalyst for our thoughts and feelings there. The stimuli that gets us to tell a story. When I'm talking about an ex,

it's not just a story about me, they're involved too, but they have no say over what my narrative is. And I'm the one with this platform where I'm able to express myself and tell the story as I see it. And I can be fair as far as I understand it, but I still might have a completely different way of expressing both the way I acted and what I did and how I feel about it than they would if you asked them. So that's something I've been thinking about as well. And then I guess I've also been turning over this idea of self-expression versus just expression that you mentioned. I'd really like to know how Layla differs to your earlier work because you've always been expressing yourself, like in your performances as a drag queen, that's

self-expression right. But it feels like when you're talking about just expression, maybe Leila, which is another form of self-expression, making this film, putting this film out. That might be something that feels closer to what you're describing as just expression, where the two actually meet. I like that expression, just expression. And part of the reason I love film and TV at the moment as a medium is, you know, you're creating a story, not a sort of, sort of here's my version of events kind of essay, not saying

that that's what I've done before. But, you know, by getting to remove myself and creating a fictional story, it becomes more of a playground for ideas, for audiences to wrestle with, rather than my take on things. What has been frustrating though, in the responses, particularly in some reviewers from more kind of conservative reviewers, and this is just a response I find to queer work and minority work in general,

that I just don't see my straight white filmmaker friends having to wrestle with this at all, is I'm being accused of justifying character decisions as if they are my moral decisions. And, you know, like a white friend of mine made a really messy film, which was great as a messy morally. And she was praised for that. And one of the big critiques that I've had from, interestingly, and without wanting to play identity politics, but from white male reviewers, mostly it comes from them, is my treatment of Max as if I dislike white men. I don't, you know, slept with so many of them now, it's my shame.

Sweetheart, I've slept with many and I still dislike men in general. Actually, some of my best friends are white men, so... You married one? I said all men. I said all men. I said all men. I just like not just white men. Fine, fair.

So I don't, I mean, as Ash alluded to the beginning, like Layla is an asshole and also wonderful, but you know, they lie, they conceal the truth, they're a bit narcissistic, they are a bit of a woe is me kind of character. Their best friend who's a queer Muslim artist basically is someone who plays identity politics quite badly in that kind of juvenile way of all white men are evil. I mean, they're mean to the white guy without even knowing them. I read some reviews about how toxic my film is because it really justifies this sort of just mean queer behaviour. And I'm like, no, I'm just presenting that because I've seen a lot of young queers and I was one of them.

In my early 20s when I moved to London and I finally met loads of other queer people of colour and we all lived together for a bit and we finally found a language to talk about our experience and we were really bratty about stuff, like all white men are evil. And, and, you know, and I was annoying online about, I, God, some of the things I used to say were so confident and so stupid. And so I wanted to present that in the film, but I've been critiqued for that. Or, you know, I think we're very empathetic to the white guy actually in the film. I think there was a version of the film and I was pushed in some ways to make this film where Layla is a victim Muslim drag queen and dates this hot, mean white guy who destroys

them and then Layla, you know, leaves him and they're free. But I wanted to cast someone who was really empathetic and who's really trying to get to know Leila, but Leila keeps lying so he doesn't have a chance. But he's also a little bit problematic as well. And some mean stuff happens to him, to both of them actually. And I've been critiqued for that as well as, I wanted to give this film four stars,

but the treatment of Max at the end reveals to me, Amru's position on this is limited. And I'm like, well, Layla's 23, so Layla's position on this is limited. And I find that queer writers particularly, there's this sort of puritanical literalism to the way that our work is represented as, because it's sort of about your identity, this is what you think. But I'm, you. But I've actually left media and sense of journalism and just because I'm quite humble now, I think about what I think. It changes all the time, the more I grow up in a way,

which is, I was not like that in my early 20s. And so that's why I prefer fictional storytelling where moral ambiguity is okay. But yeah, I wish people would stop. So that's the question. People would stop, you know, interpreting my characters as me. But that's the kind of difference for me between personal writing and what you call sort of just authenticity. It's funny to me hearing you talk about that group of friends who are like all queer people of colour and making the point like they are all in their early 20s because watching it I was like, ah yes this is a bit what it's like when you're in your early 20s and you

have a group of friends where everyone is the main character in their story, right? And they are just on such a mission to define who they are and everyone wants to be on stage being looked at by everyone else. So like Leila wants that and her friends want it and like they all just want kind of like these moments in the spotlight and it rubs up against each other in a way which is sometimes quite unkind. So there's a moment where Leila goes to a photography exhibition by one of their friends and kind of forgets that they're at an exhibition of someone else's work that they're supposed to humble themselves in front of and look at and they sort of become quite like, look at and they sort of become quite like, you know, ditzy and annoying because they've sort of forgotten that like this isn't about them. And it's interesting to me that like

you, in the eyes of your reviewers, didn't get to the benefit of separateness from that. It's like, oh, this is what Amory thinks is good. And I was like, no, this is so obviously somebody who has lived it and has been there and has seen that, has maybe done it, and is now reflecting on it from a position of being older, because only now you can see this stuff really clearly, because you are not in your early 20s anymore.

Sadly not. And I suppose, I suppose it's like, have you, you, no, I mean, not sadly, not, I fucking love getting older, but that's a whole other thing. I'm just, I'm so glad I'm not in my early 20s anymore. Same, I love to age. Just thought of it. Like, was there something for you in like, I guess, looking back on that period of your life and being like, actually, the strive to always be the one who's expressing yourself

in front of an audience and treating your friends as if they're your audience all the time. Looking back on that and being like, oh, glad that's not me anymore. Like, glad I'm not in it. Yeah. To be honest, it's funny you say that because a film takes so long to get made, especially a film like this where it's not a clear genre, it's very queer, there's no heroes and villains, and trying to wrestle that through the system was really, really complicated. I pitched this film when I was 28, shot it when I was 32, and it's coming out now, but I'm 34. And when, you know, when I started writing it,

I was probably a little bit more close to how Leila is behaving in the film. And then when we kind of got the green light, I was kind of reading the script, sort of mortified at some of the things they were saying and doing and started changing it. And my producer was like, ah, you have to be careful because the reason this really works

is there's like an emotional juvenile quality to this character that's really, and you're now trying to intellectualize what they're doing as Amru now to show that I don't think these things, and I'm cleverer than this character, but like it is a portrait of a 23 year old who's just moved to London and thinks being a drag queen that everyone you know like is the most

important thing in the world and you know it is really important to this character it's one of the most important things in my life but I remember really having to fight the urge to like tell the audience that I'm not quite like that and that I just comes from, and I'm sure you feel it as well, like just people having way more bad faith towards our perspectives in the immediate, you know, and I've definitely uncounted that. And I was warned about that with the reviews, just like they will just have bad faith

because it's just this is your take on being queer end of discussion you know part of the thing that we did in the film and I think a lot of people have got this but I don't really care quite yet was we just thought okay we can either be really authentic or I can just do whatever I want and have the characters wear whatever they want and live the characters wear whatever they want and live wherever they want. Just a little bit like Friends where you're quite like, how are all these jobless queers

living in like a queer mansion? And they're always like in the... And I just thought, well, if I just get rid of all this trauma that we usually see and this kind of social realist grit that we see in a lot of queer cinema and just let them live how I wish I could have in my 20s. People won't be thinking about violence and then can kind of just enjoy the complexity of these characters. And I read something being like, well, clearly, you know, Amru just thinks all young queers are millionaires. So, you know, what do they

know about being queer? And I'm like, oh my god, like every decision. But in terms of what you're saying about, yeah, I personally think to be a good screenwriter, I'm not saying I'm a good one, but if you want to keep making work, and I mentor a lot of younger screenwriters, and I have to say, I see a lot of myself in them now in the self-righteousness of their writing and their characters. And I actually think you have to be quite self-critical and self-deprecating to write characters who are genuinely relatable, because you have to acknowledge that you're basically a dick,

that you lie, that you have jealousy, that you're full of contradictions. And I've read a lot of kind of younger, queerer writers who write beautifully, but the moralism is so inherent in the writing that I'm like, I think you should be writing an essay, you know, because it's so clear. I mean, that's a really interesting discussion,

like what is like the moral function of this medium? Because I don't quite know. My last question, and I'll give Moira a last question as well before we move on to the dilemmas. what is like the moral function of this medium? Cause I don't quite know. My last question, I'll give Moira last question as well before we move on to the dilemmas. But I suppose my last question is about the choices that your characters make.

Because Max, one of the things that was quite interesting to me in like a kind of important detail about his backstory is that he lost a parent at a young age, he lost his mom at a young age. And so there's a way of rather than seeing his conformism is like, oh, you're just boring. And you're just, you know, you know, seeing it as a sort of like, or like moral failing in him. His attitude to conformism is shaped by a real unwillingness and fear of losing what remaining family he has. So I'm not going to just do whatever I want all the time because I've already lost my mom.

I don't wanna push people away. And Leila has the opposite problem in the film is that, and sort of takes this position of, well, in order to be myself, I have to push everyone away. And their journey is realizing that that's not the case. I suppose when it comes to the moral dimensions of what they're doing, there are some people in our audience who would think that the moral message

that someone should take away is that being yourself is the highest good and you should always do it, even if it does mean alienating members of your family or other people who are close to. I suppose my question is, is that a view that you take or is it a bit more nuanced? Do you think that there are times where self-expression or being yourself takes a back seat

to keeping people close to you. That is a thing that I've been wrestling with definitely my whole life. So, you know, I never think that anyone should suppress who they are. I really love that that's your reading of Max. I mean, my reading is partly that, but also partly that he just doesn't know himself fully yet. And that Leila has a privilege in the fact that they've been able to come at this fully formed identity. And Max is really jealous of that. But I think both of them are sort of living in slight fictions as well. So for me, it's not that kind of Leila's way of life

is preferable to Max's sort of gray way of life, but the fact that they're both sort of stuck in certain kind of fully legible ways of being, partly because of family trauma or whatever, and they both have to realize that kind of the in-between space is, and you know, Max is flirting with self-expression because he's an artist but so a lot of that is just like fear but I think I don't want to get all

theoretical but when I but I always thought it was really amazing that like Foucault's final essay was about the aesthetics of the self that was what he wanted to talk about last he kind of basically said after all the work that I've done, this whole like genealogy of sex and everything that I've done and I've realized that the most radical thing that you can do is to be a work of art. That's kind of how he ended it. Oh and so in the interview about that he was sort of saying that we live in such a kind of reified time of culture and capitalism that the most radical thing you can do is to like interrogate yourself constantly so that you're not being told who you are but you're working it out for yourself and

I do think that just being expressive is not that actually having quite a lot of like humility and being like oh actually I don't know who I am and I need to think about this and actually I may be, oh, actually I don't know who I am and I need to think about this and actually I may be wrong here and actually I don't need to wear this, that because it might make this person, you know, uncomfortable or whatever. That is maybe what I think he was talking about. And I think the journey of Leila is to go from what is like a really firm

presentation of themselves to a much more knotty one. But, and I guess it goes back to your question about online culture and that kind of stuff, that doesn't allow for that gray area, does it? I mean, as you talk, I keep thinking, oh, I wish I'd said this in the film, I wish I'd said this in the film. It's so hard in 90 minutes and it's just such a,

it's such a fascinating medium, because as well as all of this, you have to make it entertaining. I mean, I want a sequel which is focused on Leila's brother-in-law who's sort of like a Muslim happy himbo. Like that's the sequel that I want. A lot of Muslims have been like, that guy was a legend. That guy was a legend. Because he's like... He's so tangible to me. Like I think like, you know, even though he doesn't get loads and loads of screen time, I know exactly who he is. I know that he loves cryptocurrency, going to the gym, and he listens to Joe Rogan. Like I know this Muslim guy so well. He's fine that late, you know, that his wife's

girlfriend's gay. He's like, yeah, they're a legendary family, man. Moira, I suppose that the final question goes to you before we move on to dilemmas. Well, the thing is, the questions that I want to ask would open up a whole new pot of worms, I guess not worms, discussion, which leads us down a whole new yellow brick road, because I'm interested in like, whose self-expression matters more, you know? Is it Max's self-expression? Is it Leila's self-expression? So instead of asking that, I'm going to ask you, where can people see Leila?

Oh, well, I don't think anyone's matters more. That's really interesting. Yeah, gosh, yeah, the compromise of self-expression is really, really, really... I mean, there's a reason that we don't go to people's weddings in bridal outfits. Like, actually, like I can imagine 24 year old Amru being invited to like a straight wedding of straight white people and being like, this is really violating to me and coming and drag in a wedding dress being like, yeah, this is revolutionary. And that would ruin it for everyone. Like that would be just so narcissistic. So yeah. Where can people watch Layla? It's still at Kuz and Soho this week and in Birmingham as well and a few other places. So yeah, it'll be in cinemas for a little while longer, a little while longer. And then I think you'll be able to buy it on VOD over Christmas.

So please, please support our film. Indie filmmaking is really hard, so please, please watch our film. Watch with your families, everyone. That's an order. It is family-friendly. I think it, I do think it, there's some hardcore sex scene

that might be hard to do. There is one scene which is not family-friendly, Amru. But it's a 15. It's a 15. Depends on the family. All I'm gonna say is that there is a lubed up stiletto and that's it. That's true. That's all I'm gonna say.

That's fine. Look, if your family watched, if your family watches Passages over Paddington, you can watch Layla. Okay. If your family watches Passages over Paddington. The enlightened family. Which cool visual family do you know? Which you've passages? The enlightened family. Which is your role?

My chosen family. Shall we solve some people's problems? This section is called I'm in big trouble, which is where we address audience dilemmas. And if you are in big trouble, just email us at if I speak at NavarroMedia.com. That is if I speak at NavarroMedia.com. Moira, do you want to do you want to take it away? Yeah, go on then. So this week's dilemma. Dear If I Speak, first of all, big big fan of the pod, I'm writing in with a dilemma

that I would love to get your thoughts on. In January, my boyfriend of over 5 years, 27m, made a seemingly innocuous New Years resolution to stop watching porn. Though porn doesn't really do anything for me, 26f, I know how harmful it can be and was supportive of his decision. But shortly after this, my boyfriend started to suffer from a low libido, which impacted our sex life for months, and eventually admitted he had been addicted to porn. Before this point, I wouldn't say I necessarily had a strong ethical stance on porn, but his confession shocked and upset me. Despite my sex-positive beliefs, I felt incredibly betrayed

and hurt that this had been going on behind my back for years. I appreciated him being open and vulnerable with me, but it made me view him in a different light. To be honest, I felt quite disgusted. Later, during the many conversations and arguments we would have about this, my boyfriend told me the real problem is that he is deeply insecure, and porn was just one way in which his insecurity manifested itself. He was anxious to please me and perform well and watching porn was just easier. He's now going to therapy to try and resolve these deeper self-esteem issues but I'm still stewing over those early feelings of betrayal and shame nearly a year on. Deep down I know his addiction has nothing to do with me as a partner, as a lover etc. but I think about it every time we have sex. I've lost confidence in myself and I've lost trust in my boyfriend. We

don't live together and every time we're apart I get paranoid he's watching porn and lying about it despite assuring me he has stopped. Our sex life has understandably suffered as well as our ability to communicate with each other. Would be really interested to know what you think about this. I love my boyfriend and want to support him but can't seem to move past my own feelings of betrayal and embarrassment. Am I being unfair? Am I making it all about me? Is it possible to salvage a relationship where trust has been broken?

I've been told I have avoidant tendencies, lol, but is it worth cutting my losses? Love from a loyal listener." There's something about that avoidant tendencies. Lol, which is like, that's how I know that the avoidance is real. Like, lol, that's so me. Wow, that was really fresh thoughts. I actually did a little bit of,

I did a bit of research about this because I wanted to be able to give good advice. And so I'm going to very, very quickly run through what my research told me before I throw to Amru and back to Moira. The first thing is that there are support groups, some of which are in person and some of which are online for the partners of people who have some kind of sexual addiction. So it could be, you know, sex, love and relationship addiction,

or it can be porn addiction. So if you want to have a space where you talk to people who are in a similar position to you, and you can work through all these really naughty feelings, you can find them, right? So groups exist. The second thing is that there are, and obviously this costs money, so I'm not saying, okay, like you can just afford it. But if you can,

there are specialists, sex and relationships therapists who work with couples where someone has been struggling with some kind of compulsive sexual behavior. So in this case, it'll be porn addiction. So you don't necessarily have to deal with this by yourself. And I think that if you're coming at it from the attitude that your feelings need to be suppressed or put to the side, I don't think that is going to help you repair the relationship. I think the only way to repair the relationship, if that's the thing that you want to do, is to find some kind of space where your feelings get to see the light of day. Again, like this is something which came from

my reading about this, because I went back and I read Esther Perel's The State of Affairs, because while obviously this isn't the same as having an affair, I think that there was stuff in it which was useful, which is that people experience, you know, these kinds of revelations, often as a form of trauma. So it's hugely destabilizing. Your trust is gone, your trust in your own perception, your trust in the person. And even though you can view what your partner has been going through with love and with empathy, you are still experiencing the repercussions of that traumatic revelation.

She distinguishes the period of crisis not just being the moment you found out, but sometimes months or even years after a partner has found something out. There are different ways in which couples navigate the time that comes after that. Sometimes they stay stuck and it's a compulsion to repeat and reopen up the wound again and again and again. It's almost a way of saying, hey, this is real and it's here for me. There's another where it's like, just want to move on and never ever look at it. And then the other is much more complicated, which is how do both of you integrate what happened into your sense of your identity as a couple? And she talks about that there is sort of strange comparison between affairs, this crisis that you're experiencing and other forms of crises where no one would say, oh, well, it was really great when

my husband had cancer. But afterwards, years after going through that terrible thing, some couples say, well, actually that did bring us closer and that shared struggle and trauma did bring us closer together. So that can happen. I don't think that it's impossible to salvage a relationship where trust has been broken, but it does take work from both of you. And I suppose the last thing I'd say is that maybe, regardless of whether or not you're able to access a support group or access a sex and relationships therapist for the both of you,

it might be useful for you to do some digging into why you feel betrayed, because that bit's still sort of unclear to me. Do you feel betrayed because you feel like something important about your relationship was kept from you? Do you feel betrayed because your partner was reliant on something for his libido that wasn't you and the extent of that dependency has really shaken you? Do you feel betrayed because, and again, like we feel ugly feelings, all right? Like our feelings are not virtuous.

You know, is there a part of you that feels betrayed because you had a sense of him as a person and this struggle, this addiction, this dependency makes you think of him as, you know, I'm not saying he is these things, but the feeling stimulated in you are like, oh, you're weak or you're, you know, you'm not saying he is these things, but the feelings stimulated in you are that oh, you're weak or you're You know, you're lacking in resilience

because I think that I think that as long as you Feel a kind of shame About the feelings that you've got you're never really going to be able to deal with them or look through them And you really have to look at them in the eye You know, that doesn't mean that every feeling you have is going to be morally good or right, but you can't get anywhere without facing up to them. But yeah, Amru, what do you reckon? That was all really great advice. I might take some of that myself. What was I thinking? Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. I can only speak from my experience as someone who's been in a relationship with an addict and addiction has been a big part of my

life just in terms of friends and lovers and it's just a tenet to really have to support people through addiction and been very close to people with some kinds of addictions. So it's something I've had to come to know a lot about. One thing that I think that's really important when it's really hard not to take things personally when you're really close with an addict, because there's a lot of what one might characterize as narcissistic behavior with addiction, you know, lying, you know, trying to feel good at the expense of others and is really hard. I've had this before when I've been with an addict where you just take it all really personally and actually, you know, it's taken me a long time to sort of not do that. I would say in any kind of addiction recovery, whether it's sex addiction or love addiction or, you know, substance addiction for the person who's trying to heal from addiction. My experience is only the recovery only really seems most viable when it's for

themselves and not for a kind of external source or another higher power. As it would be saying, you know, it never really works in the long run. If, you know, I'm gonna quit drinking because I want to save my relationship or I, you know, want my parents not to kick me at the house or I want to impress this person or whatever, you know, it really has to be about your own spiritual journey to your own higher power or whatever helps you get through addiction. It's about really healing yourself. And so I so obviously when you're in a relationship, that's really, really tricky because you're trying to negotiate both your own recovery

and also the recovery of your relationship. So I think it's a tricky situation, but I suppose maybe the thing that would be most conducive for the relationship, and I don't really know the details, is allowing your partner's sort of addiction recovery to be something that's his and not the relationships. And I think what Ash said about finding an outlet for you to express

your own feelings so that they don't consume you while that happens will be maybe one of the most helpful coping mechanisms through that. What do you reckon, Moya? Yeah, I think Amru's, what Amru has said, it really aligns with what I'm thinking as someone who also has close experience of addiction and loved ones who are both inactive addiction and recovery for various things. I'm going to say something which some listeners might object to and that's so fine. People do go into recovery while in relationships, but I think as Amry was gesturing to, often true recovery is something that is best undertaken when that person is not in a relationship.

Because the person that you are before recovery and the person that you are when you are in recovery are completely different. The point of like a recovery is you will undergo a total transformation and that's why what you have to do for yourself, you dig into all of the crevices that mean that you have used something, maybe it's alcohol, maybe it's drugs, maybe it's porn, as a balm for pain. And you are digging into, first of all, why you chose that thing. And then secondly, where that pain comes from. And that can take years to even start understanding where that pain is, where it sits. And when you think you've got one layer peeled back, then you get another.

And it's why they say in something like AA, it's best to refrain from relationships for a year. It's why so many people end up having, you see this a lot, they call it like the three month thing, someone will go into AA and within three months, their partner and them will have broken up. Because if you're really undertaking a recovery, it is a journey that you're going on. It's a different type of, I guess, quote, mark selfishness. Because when you're in active addiction, the selfishness and narcissism that Amru gestured out there, explicitly said, it's something that will,

will like, everything's in service of the addiction. Everything is in service of masking that pain and the more that you, you know, try and break away from it, the more without any recovery services systems in place, the more that you end up going back and, you know, falling off the wagon. So when you really commit, you have to commit wholehearted to recovery the same way that you'd committed to the addiction almost. And I hear your letter and I understand that you and you yourself are in such pain. And I do actually think you should break up,

but I don't think you should break up for the reasons you're giving. I think you should break up because I think the relationship you had with this person isn't what you thought it was. You weren't in a relationship with someone. It's you're in a relationship with it was. You weren't in a relationship with someone. You're in a relationship with an addict and when you're in a relationship with an addict, you don't actually know them properly and you need to give them space to really

undergo recovery for themselves. And that might be totally controversial advice. There's other people out there like, you can only heal in relation to others. You can only do this and that. Fine, whatever. This is just my opinion from what I've seen and heard from the people around me who have gone through recovery or going through recovery right now. So I get the betrayal, the betrayal is because it was a secret life. This person was acting in service and you're questioning every single thing that they said or did and then you put this idea of like sex on top of it, it becomes even more complicated. But at the root of it, it is an addiction and whatever form it takes, however it's expressed, the addiction is the thing they come back to, not that this person is like, you know,

they're so into this type of sex, they're so into this type of porn or whatever. It could be alcohol, it could be drugs, you could swap anything in. The point is, it's the addiction and that's what you need to focus on, why those addictive behaviours are there and how can this person go into recovery? And if they are going into recovery just to save the relationship, I do fear it won't end up the way that you'd want it to or you'll be you will be able to rebuild any sort of relationship. It will be built on a very tenuous platform and a lie. So my advice is, my honest advice is, break up and give them time to go into recovery for themselves. I suppose, I mean, it's so hard because you know, both individuals here in their mid 20s,

do you know what I mean? It's like you're so young, like you're so young and you've been in this relationship for five years, like, you know, in the grand scheme of things, you're still really young. I suppose the thing I'd say is that it makes, it sort of seems to me that the boyfriend went into recovery off his own steam, right? He didn't say why he was doing it. He just said he wanted to do it. And so that was maybe more about himself than I'm doing the save the relationship.

But now you're both in this position where what it means to be in recovery is putting different strains on the relationship, both from the revelation itself and also from the reading I did, that kind of crash in libido is called intimacy anorexia, which is often something which happens when people are in recovery from some kind of sexual compulsive behavior. So I guess for me, it's less about why is he doing it, because it sounds a bit like he is doing it for himself. It's can the two of you navigate recovery and all the difficulties that come with it together. And I think that there are avenues which exist to support the partners of people in recovery. But you're also, you know, you are young and I understand if, you know, you haven't been married for 10 years, 20 years, in which case

it'd be like, you know, really, really stick it out. Like you're both in your twenties and this might not be the forever relationship because maybe both of you need time alone to discover who you are. And as Moira said, for your boyfriend to discover who he is without this addiction, which maybe he's never known that person before. The last thing I would add is when Ash said about support groups, whether you stay with this person or not, you, I think, need to get yourself to some sort of support group. There's Al-Anon for alcoholics. I presume there's similar versions for sex and love,

porn addiction, all of that. And these are the groups where you can both mirror the recovery process they're going through to a degree, but also it teaches you to detach from that person's recovery. And it's, you know, as Amry was talking at the start, this addiction is not a reflection on you. The recovery and whether they achieve that is also not a reflection on you. The recovery and whether they achieve that is not

also not a reflection on you. And to truly care for someone, sometimes you have to detach and it's very hard. I find it so difficult. I still slip a lot with certain people where it's really hard for me not to be angry or upset or just like break down at them being like, why can't you be well? It's so hard, but detaching from that and really internalizing the same things that they will internalize, which is that, you know, God grant me the power. As a Serenity person, God grant me the power, I think, to control, to lose control of the thing. I can't remember the Serenity power, but it's that kind of thing. God grant me the power to... Serenity, the Serenity. Change the things that I can, accept the things I can't change, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Exactly, and the first thing they teach in the Anon groups is very much, I have no control over this person's addiction, I have no control over the recovery, I am not responsible for it, and also I just don't have influence over it. And that you will have to repeat a hundred times and think about a hundred times and then take a hundred more before it even starts going in. But it's the most important thing of all because otherwise you will then carry around all the shame and the pain of this person too. And then there's two of you carrying this on their backs and you'll carry it with resentment as well. Wise words. But yeah, wishing you the best of luck special one

and also to your partner as well. That is all we have time for. Amruth, thank you so much for joining us today. Oh, what a pleasure. This is really meaningful for me to be able to talk about it on this platform. Thank you so much for joining us today. Oh, what a pleasure. This is really meaningful for me to be able to talk about it on this platform. Thank you. Pleasure to have you, except it's not really having you. I'm not the host. You're the host.

We're both hosts. We're co-hosts. In the club, Ash, we're all fam. In the club, we're all fam. All right. Thanks everyone for listening. Bye. Goodbye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Goodbye.

Bye. Bye.