If I Speak - 44. How to deal with people who can’t deal with you

Episode Date: December 24, 2024

Moya and Ash swerve the fuzzy festive feelings in order to get some things off their chest. Plus, advice for a listener who feels trapped in their happy relationship. Email your missed connections and dilemmas to [e-mail] Music by Matt Huxley.

Are we on? Okay. Merry Christmas. Feliz Navidad. I don't, what is it? Bon Aouni verset? No, that's happy, that's happy birthday. Okay, so the language will stop here. Hello and welcome to If I Speak festive edition. It's still secular, I guess.

You do not sound festive at all. You sound like you're announcing that a train's been canceled. Well, I need. You do not sound festive at all. You sound like you're announcing that a train's been canceled. Well, I need to confess to the listeners. I'm ill. Again. Many would say there's a pattern of illness going on that might correlate with the way I expand my energy,

perhaps all at once, in one big go. And then I succumb to illness. But yes, I'm ill again. And this one is less phlegmy, but more affecting my brain. So my brain is leaking out my ears. once in one big go and then I succumb to illness but yes I'm ill again and this one is less flemmy but more affecting my brain so my brain is leaking out my ears that will be reflected in the show. Whereas I'm just dumb. No.

I've been drinking my dumb bitch juice this morning like I'm just you know. I actually watched you and it wasn't dumb bitch juice. Whatever the female version of a himbo is that's me. She wasn't drinking dumb bitch juice she was drinking version of a himbo is, that's me. She wasn't drinking dumb bitch juice, she was drinking a substance that she liberated from someone else's cupboard. Oh no. And Navarro Towers, and that's all I'll say on that.

Okay, no, wait, you're making it sound worse than it is. Like you're making it sound like I like took some fucking, I don't know, like Promethazine from somebody's like secret stash. Basically, a colleague has some really nice Marks & Spencer's tea, which he keeps in a cupboard separate from the rest of the organization. That's not very socialist, is it? And yeah, it's not very socialist of him.

So I expropriated his Marks & Spencer's tea for the good of the masses. It's me. I am the masses. You are Luigi. I am masses. You are Luigi. I am Luigi. You are Luigi and I've been drinking them. Anyway. The I in BIPOC stands for Italian. The POC stands for people of Carbonara.

He's my brother. They've been returned. Okay, you have some queries for me. I do. From my foggy brain. I have three festive queries. Ooh, okay. In the grand tradition of that rustling

you can hear in the background is Moira having a secret little sack we're in the same room, which is also why I'm so giddy and excited and Stop rustling fucking rodent What are you saying in the spirit of folks 73 questions minus 70 I have three festive queries for you. Question one, what is the greatest of all time? Christmas carol. Immediately coming to mind, okay, obviously Silent Night. Is that carol?

Yeah. Silent Night, very beautiful. I think Away in a Manger has its, you know, prose. Stunning. I love a solo. Like something that has a beautiful soprano solo in. See, the first Noel. That's got that.

Never heard it. The first Noel. Okay. But I think the one I'm thinking of is, which is the Come Let Us Adore Him? Is it Wot Royal David's City? Oh come let us adore him, oh come let us adore him, oh come let us adore him, Christ the Lord. Is that Once in Royal David's City? No. Chow's ears have just exploded as she's producing this.

Because I also love Once in Royal David with David City cause it's once in a world and it goes, ooh, I love that one as well. So I think all of those, those, and then the one that's not a Christmas, I mean, you're not gonna ask me a Christmas song, I won't get into it. Let's say the one that's Come Let Us Adore Him. Which one is it called? Come Let Us Adore Him.

I mean, I think that for me, that it falls in like two camps, right? The first Noel, very, very beautiful. Then there's the fact that what's the one where it's like, sing, Hosanna, sing, Hosanna. That is not a Christmas carol. Okay, well it's an assembly song. That's, yeah, that's an assembly song.

That is, give me oil in my lamp, keep me burning. And then sing, Hosanna, for the King of Kings. And then like, as a kid, you'd add the extra of Kings for the final one, even though you knew you weren't meant to I didn't I didn't do that. I was a rule. I was a rule Follow the rules, which actually is an access. I'm gonna do okay. So that's not a Christmas song I just mixed up. Yeah Christmas songs with assembly songs Good King Wenceslas class good one a solid one

Excellent, but I think for Christmas songs and this is always like me and my brother Getting really really pissed on Christmas morning because we start early, like we're about that life, is Felice Navidad. My least favorite. Oh! I fucking hate that song. Okay, if someone doesn't like fun.

No, literally, I do not like fun. That is my least, because you asked about hymns. So I feel like Christmas songs is entirely different. No, carols. Carols, you asked about carols, to be fair. Oh, carols. Anyway, okay, mine is The C Laudatorium, I think. Okay, all right, I think Feliz Navidad.

That's not a carol. It's not a carol at all, it's a popular song. In Espanol, see? No, it's a popular song. It's a carol. And I'm sticking to that. Next question. Okay, next question.

Rank the quality street chocolates in terms of desirability. I can't remember them all. Do you know how long it's been since I've had a quality street? Right, look them up now, look them up now, right? Like quality street chocolates. I also saw some polling about the country's favorite ones.

I don't eat quality street because I'm like, why would I go small on Christmas when I can go into a fucking lint Santa or bunny? Why would I, why, go hard or go home? I'm not playing around with the little dribbles and drabbles. Oh no, but the dribbles and drabbles, it's because of the Christmas grazing. Yeah, but I can't do Christmas grazing anymore due to, um, I don't graze. I don't graze. It's just not, it's just not what I do. I'm full.

You did also talk on a previous episode of the podcast. Yeah, this is, this is, this is, No, also about your like marzipan addiction when you were a kid. Oh my God, that wasn't marzipan, that was um. Fondant. Fondant icing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, all right.

So. I've got them up, I've got them up in front of me. All right, what's your number one? Do you know, it used to be an orange creme, but times change, tastes have changed. Orange creme, bro. I was very sweet, I love sweet stuff. But now it's too sweet for me, so I think it would be, do you know what's so boring?

I wanna put the truffle block number one. I wanna put the truffle block. Which one's the truffle block? It's just the chocolate. It's just chocolate. Oh, the milk choc block. Milk choc block number one. Okay.

Toffee finger number two, cause you can crack all the toffee off. Okay, wrong, but fine. No, correct. What's in the middle? I think orange crunch number three, cause it's got the orange, but it's now as an adult version. What's in the middle? I think Orange Crunch number three, because it's got the orange, but it's now as an adult version,

it's the elevated version. Then let's go Caramel Cup, Toffee Penny, and then at the bottom, we're now going to the strawberry creme, the orange creme, too sweet now. Fudge fondant, boring, bland.

Have I done Toffee Penny? That was in there, yeah. And then very bottom, obviously, hazelnut triangle, hazelnut caramel. And then obviously bottom tier, should never be in the box, coconut eclair. Okay, well you are just incorrect because number one is the green triangle.

This is what makes this podcast about, we have opposite tastes. All right, green triangle number one. Coconut eclair, number two. Fudge, number three, because that's as sweet as I'll go. Then milk, chocolate, block, and then all the other ones

because I really, really hate caramel. Like I do not like caramel. I don't like how it feels in my teeth and it's too hot. It's very sticky. It's not for me. Okay, I get, I do not, I respect that. And that would also be good

because if we ate a box of quality street together, we'd both be happy. We'd leave nothing. Yeah, we'd leave nothing. But we'd be happy. Yeah. Neither of us would feel short changed. Or as I remembered last Christmas, my partner going for the last green triangle and it's the closest I've ever come to committing GBH. I'm actually thinking about, I'm probably more of a celebrations girl. Anyway question three. What are you looking forward to next year? Next year? Being signed off work. What are we looking forward to? Breaking my leg and breaking my head, breaking my brain. What am I looking forward to? Oh, I know I'm looking forward to.

I have I'm going to try. It's not a pledge. It's not a promise. Don't hold me to it. But I went to a Tarot reader recently. She told me lots of things. She told me lots of questions. She has lots of questions. You are so mentally unwell.

Yes, I've said this. If I was to start with, I've said this. I've said this. If I said to start with, I went with a Tararita recently. I'm just like, what does this bitch fucking know? She gave me guidance and direction. And one of those questions I asked that was, should I take my club night monthly?

And she was like- And what did the card say? And the card said yes. So I want to take it to like one month heated, one month in stable hotties, and obviously not doing in January because no one's to leave the house. Like I want to take it to like one month heated, one month in stable hotties and obviously not doing it in January because no one wants to leave the house. Like I'm not doing it. But in February I already have the February one booked.

Excuse-moi. I already have the February one booked for the 15th of February. It's going to be an anti-Valentine's day, but let's have a bit of optimism. Maybe you will find the love of your life there, one. And then I have a very special one on the 15th of March because it's my birthday on the 16th of March. So it's going to double up as my 30th birthday, but I'm monetizing it so everyone can come. So everyone can come.

Okay. I mean, I think that, look, if your tarot reader is like getting you to do things which are good and like good for you and good for the world, fine. But like, I think this is who do. The tarot is really about what do you take from the tarot? The cards are really about what do you see? Although she is very like, in June this will happen. And she's really good.

All right, I don't believe fully, but it's a good guidance because like, how do I react to her saying that? If I'm like, no, then I obviously don't want to do that. I won't follow the advice. But if I'm like, yes, then clearly something deep inside me wants to her saying that. If I'm like, no, then I obviously don't want to do that. I won't follow the advice. But if I'm like, yes, then clearly something deep inside me wants to follow the advice. And she said lots of other things. What else did she say? I can't repeat them because on, on Mike, because one of the things is patience and I don't want to blow my load too early. All right. On that bong shell, middle segment.

Oh wait, before we move on though, I've got something to say very, very quickly. This has been an incredible 12 months for the podcast. And I think that in our wildest dreams, I don't think that we anticipated that it would connect with so many people. So this is just a really big thank you to everyone who follows the podcast and has offered us words of kindness or support in any way. We really, really, really appreciate it. Having given you a compliment,

let me now come in with the request. So we want money, but you don't have to give it to us, all right? Like this is very much a request that you can say no to. All right, we are not going behind a paywall, but we would like it if in the goodness of your heart and the goodness of your bank account, you are willing to support us

and allow us to produce more If I Speak and maybe even branch out in some ways. Maybe make some merch, maybe do more events, maybe make this thing. I have merch ideas as I've mentioned before. There's going to be a scuba suit. If I Speak scuba suit. What? Why would... No, I'm not responding to that. Go on with the ask. Look, if you want to help us make more of this show, go to navara.media forward slash support.

And we really do appreciate any amount of money that you could give. And even if you can't reach into your pocket at the moment, because it's a spending time of year, just thank you for being one of our listeners. You've made me look bad because you did a big thank you and I was eating a bar. Just be like, yeah, cheers guys, cheers.

No, we really do appreciate it. And yes, we currently don't have separate landing pages to denote directly to If I Speak. So this is the best way to support us. This is the way that our wages get paid. This is how I get to stay on the show. So please, in the spirit of Christmas, if you have anything to give,

we will kindly accept it. You there boy, what day is it? I'm not going to say the date. It'll give it away. Right, more spirit of Christmas stuff. I'm getting out all my resentments. The airing of the grievances. It's time to go into the new year cleansed, cleansed. Cleansed. Cleansed.

Disgreed. It's time to be cleansed and the podcast is the best way to air my grievances. And I've been thinking about this a lot. So I was trying to think how to frame it best, but something that has plagued me this year is an intrusive thought in the way we like to frame it on this podcast. How do we see other people as human again? Okay, so I've talked before about, you know,

the thought that we as a society are maybe getting a bit angrier. We discussed that at length. You can go back and listen to it. But I have the flip side of this question today. I want solutions. And the thing that really drove this home to me is right now my skin is much thinner than it has been. And I don't just mean because my eczema is bad. The retinol is retinoling. I actually don't use retinol because I had such a bad experience with it

by a skin in me who I'm not afraid to call out, where it literally exploded my skin barrier and I had such bad acne when I was traveling around Europe. But it was actually good because I was going through a breakup at the time, so I looked like I felt. Anyway, so the other day, this is what sparked me thinking about this. Okay, the other day, my skin is thinner than it normally is,

or rather maybe I've just reached an inexorable climax of this is what happens when you have a certain public profile, but you feel like you've changed, And the people who are watching you haven't yet caught up with that, mainly because they're not in your head and that's not like their job to do. So, you know, the, the, the various things that leveled at me, I see them. I see them. I hear them. They hurt.

I'm, I'm, as you've, I've said before, a baby girl. You said, no, I'm not, but sometimes I am a baby. You're a baby woman. I'm a baby woman. And the other day I had a run, a baby girl. You said, no, I'm not, but sometimes I am a baby. You're a baby woman. I'm a baby woman. And the other day I had a run-in with someone. It was obviously online. They were posting sardonically about me

and they had assumed as part of this way of posting sardonically about me that I had no knowledge of a particularly painful experience, let's call it, just because they did not like me, because they resented me. They were like, this person cannot possibly know this experience. They're ripping apart something I've done

based on this idea that she won't know what she's talking about, okay? And for them, clearly, I've been trying to pass that on my hand, like, this experience is clearly one, it's one they've had, and it's clearly one that they think affords humanity and sympathy to those who've undergone it. Whereas me, an avatar of resentments,

could not possibly share it. Ah, you could not have had any humanizing experience. I can't have any humanizing experience. I just must be talking out my ass, which I am a lot, but I might be talking out my ass about something I do know, you know, I've actually experienced. And I've noticed this so much,

this impulse to strip humanity from people we don't like, whether it's trivial, you know, like tweeting things about, you know, an unimportant journalist like me, thinking you're punching up, to like the really extreme, which is, say, reducing a human population using animalistic language or calling them all terrorists, so it justifies the extermination. Very opposite poles. I think the same impulse kind of underpins those things. And I guess my intrusive thought is, how do we undo that? Because it's something I feel too. When I see someone fucking annoying online,

or I see, you know, I'm walking very fast in the street and there's people in my way, and I'm just like, they cannot possibly have the same experience of humanity as me. Like I'm- Otherwise they wouldn't be walking so slowly. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing this, or they wouldn't be getting in my way.

And it's, and I've noticed it more and more throughout the year. I've, and I think it's been burgeoning for a while, it's something in the pandemic that I really, that really came up, people talked about it, the suspicion, this fear, this idea that other people, you know, are not full of the same grace or good faith that you are.

But why I wanna talk about it is because recently I've been reaching out to some of the people that I actually know who are slagging me off online. So it's not, these are not just randoms, these are people I share people with and that's why it really affects me because I'm like, I have links to you. There's like either the people

that I literally have direct connections with, I've talked to, I thought we had a good relationship or it's someone that, you know, there's a couple of degrees of separation and that's what hurts. I don't give a fuck about randoms and it's like, I shouldn't care about this, but why do I do?

So I've been reaching out, trying to have like, take a conversation to direct messages, just try and talk, just try and be like, okay, you said this thing, I just want to say that I do have this knowledge of that, and I couldn't bear this idea that you thought I didn't, because it's such a painful thing for me. Like I was crying when I was,

but they don't give a fuck about that, it's not their job to give a fuck about that. But I still wanted to try and communicate it. There was someone else I was like, you know, I thought we had a really good relationship and I wanna work with you in future. So I don't, I'd love to talk about this. Is there anything I can do?

Like, and they would just, but what I've noticed is out of these interactions I've had, few and few are going well. More and more people are like doubling down being like, no, you're this and that. What, even in private? In private. Whereas before in private,

I think there's usually common ground. And there's been one where it's been really good and we've talked and I've been like, okay, I can do this. And they're like, okay, cool. But some of them are just like, this is my point and I'm sticking to it. And that's their prerogative.

It just is interesting how hard line these views are. And I see it more and more in real world. It's like we've talked before about people who are now willing to come up and be like, you're a fucking wanker or, you know, I hate the place you work for, blah, blah, blah. And a way that, you know, in the past would have got you boxed in the ears. Boxed in the ears. Boxed in the ears. So yeah, I'm, I'm trying to go against my desire to just write these people off as evil,

hollow haters, especially as I have the personal knowledge that they are friends with people that I really respect or they're people that I directly respect. And it's like, okay, I need to not do the same to them as they're doing to me. But this stuff is more and more bleeding into the physical world. If you go out door knocking or engaging in politics

in the public space in any way, shape or form, you're aware of the hostility that comes and the way people have changed about, the way people have changed how they talk to you and they realize you're in like, maybe a political spectrum that they're not part of or whatever. So I want to say in the spirit of Christmas compassion,

how do we unpick these instincts? How do we see other people as human again and not just dumping grounds for anger and resentment? How do we come back when you're feeling that about someone else? I mean, so I've got some opinions, but first I have questions. Okay.

And I suppose the question is about when you have taken it to the DMs. Like, obviously don't give an amount of detail that like gives away the specifics of who these people are, but like, can you just tell me a little bit more about like what their response has been like, what the kind of emotional tenor of it has been like, and I guess if you were to try

and separate your own emotion from it, like what is it they're really saying? I think it's hard, because there's three specific examples I'm thinking of, and one went well, and by that I mean, you know, I, there was something I took from that, where I was like, okay, they've said this and that's actually really constructive and useful.

I'm gonna take an action, whether that's like deleting a tweet or, you know, seeing that, like we were able to, me in the middle, it wasn't them just being like, you're so right. It was like, they said, oh, this is what, you know, annoys me or upset me, but I totally get what you're trying to do.

And I was like, so fair, like actually, that's a really good point. So it wasn't a case of me just being able to steamroll them. It was like, I actually got something from that interaction. It was a real interaction. It was a real interaction that resulted in both of us seeing the other person's point, which felt productive.

Whereas the other ones, I think they missed what I was trying to say, or they would focus in on something else. And it was like, the way they talked was just, no, you are different to me. You can't possibly share things with me. And some of it was done very politely, but it was very like, I'm never going to recognize what you're saying to me. I'm never going to recognize that maybe we share things or that there's something in common or like this productive. I'm never gonna recognize that maybe we share things or that there's something in common or that it's productive. I just think, you know, our circumstances are different.

There was one person who we were talking about moving and they were like, well, you know, they're not exactly the same dynamics because I was pushed, I was forced to move to this place because of economic circumstances and you got to go there because of whatever. And I was like, you don't even think that my movements to whether it's, you know, say London or wherever I'm living now there because of whatever. And I was like, you don't think that my movements to whether it's say London or wherever I'm living now

is because of economic circumstance. Like I wasn't born in fucking London. You don't think that these migration patterns are because of those things. But they couldn't possibly see how we'd have shared things in common even when I said it. And that wasn't the main point of the discussion. It was something else that they said

that was very, very hurtful and linked to my family. So I won't go into it. They couldn't possibly know. But it's this idea that I absolutely couldn't share that. And when I said, you know, I do have knowledge of this, they were just like, well, I just think that you're, you know, using this, these this language wrong. We're going to totally disagree. And like, you know, it's not the same.

Yeah, I mean, so I suppose I think like lots of things, probably all of them contradictory and many of them sort of like semi-related or like tangentially making contact with like the kind of thing you're talking about. One is about the role of anger. And also like anger has to exist in relationship to other emotions and other responses. So I think that anger is healthy, but forgiveness is also healthy. Self-criticism and reflection and doubt, also healthy. A sense of the other, also healthy. So I'm not saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, be angry all the time or like, no, no, no, never be angry and only do these things. Like it kind of has to exist in relationship with, with, with all of these things.

Um, and I'm going to tell you something which, which Mama Saka said to me, um, her words of wisdom, what had happened was, is that I'd, um, I'd gone on holiday to Cornwall with, um, my partner and, uh, two of our friends. Um, and it was like, que racismo! Like so much racism. Like it was kind of insane. And I was so angry about it. I felt like my anger had nowhere to go. And I also felt that my anger was like completely unwelcome within the relationships that I had. And when I got back to London,

me and my partner went to my mom's house, which was honestly like the best thing, the best thing we could have done. Because it was also about like how he relates to race and how he understands races. Like it was like all these things happening at once. And the thing that my mom said was, you know, this anger that you're feeling, like don't fight it.

Don't try and tamp it down because that is the dividing line between you and humiliation at this moment. You need this anger. It is like some steel in your spine right now and you need it because what you've experienced is an attempt to humiliate and degrade you. And so anger in this case

is you holding fast to your own humanity. Now that doesn't mean it's always going to be that way, but I guess like more generally, like this is something I've been working on with my therapist, is that I have a lot of repressed rage and a lot of repressed anger to do with experiences of violence, like experiences of like violation,

having been degraded by people. And that my response to that wasn't to be angry and to like fight and scream and scratch, but to freeze and like contain within myself. So actually one of the things I've been thinking a lot about is how to, how to express anger and tap into it. And it's really funny, because me and my partner are like both quite conflict-averse with each other because both of us have been used to being with more volatile partners and our job is to stabilize and to like create calm. And so we'll sometimes be like, do you think we need to have a barney? Like, do you think we need to have a fight?

And we don't raise our voices even, but like we are trying to go like, okay, it's time to like tap into anger. And it's actually allowed us to get closer to one another. So I suppose the thing I'd say in terms of like getting angrier as a society is that maybe there's a difference between being reactive and being angry. And maybe the thing that you're identifying is like a

reactiveness and a like in the moment and like, I'm having this very powerful, like, you know, hyper aroused reaction in the moment. And maybe that's a bit different from anger because I think that anger is, anger is and can be this like quite important thing, which again separates you from humiliation. And I think can be

an emotional catalyst for going, actually I don't deserve to be treated this way. And that's an important thing. So that's the first thing about anger. The second thing I guess is about like rapprochement, like repairing and coming back and like where you can do it and where you can't. And I suppose, you know, like, I've been in this game a little longer and have been a totem for people's disgust, loathing, disappointment, feelings of betrayal, feelings of anger, having been an objective ridicule,

having been misunderstood both in ways which are my fault for not communicating clearly and also misunderstood because people have set out to misunderstand me. And I think that maybe the lesson I've taken from that is that I can't teach everyone about my humanity. Like I can't do it. I have to be comfortable with being disliked and I have to be comfortable with being misapprehended and it, people aren't going to know every detail of

my life or my experience and they're going to make assumptions about what that is and that's fine. And this is, this is, I think, wider than just like people who do jobs which involve being a public figure or creating a public-facing persona. We all create public-facing personas, particularly if we have social media and it's a way of brand building, right?

In ways which are small and ways which are large. And that brand and that image is going to be interpreted by lots of people, maybe interpreted wrongly or in some ways interpreted in just the way you intend, because you're trying to project an image, which is a certain thing, which is obviously not the sum total of your humanity and experience. And I think that when that happens, you do sort of have to be like, some stuff is out of my hands. And when it comes to people I have, and I've experienced the same thing with people who

I've been friends with or I thought were friends. I've seen talking complete shit about me. And it was kind of funny, once I was at a wedding where someone who talked shit about me regularly, who I kind of knew a bit and was kind of friends with. But we hadn't seen each other for years and they came up to me and they were like, Oh, I can't believe you haven't like blocked me yet because I talked so much shit about you. And I was just like, well, like, no, no problem. Like you're just, you're just still a human to me. Like I might not be to you. And I could, I could see them like reckoning with the fact that the real person

was in front of them now, not just like the avatar of all my opinions and things that they disapprove of. And I could see them reckoning with it. I mean, I think it was two things like I remember having this conversation and like needing to we so badly that I couldn't really be in it. So I was just like, I cannot piss myself in front of this person. But like ultimately, I was just like, I'm not going to. This is up to them. And and like it's going to like this is going to keep happening. like this is gonna keep happening.

This is gonna keep happening where people who are like once in my life and in some case like, you know, close to are going to have an idea of me which I feel to be unfair or actually might be completely fair. Like might be completely legitimate but I experience as wounding. And that's fine.

That's the game. I guess my question is for listeners who, you know, they're not 100,000 followers or whatever. They've got a real job. They've got a real job or they're a student or whatever. How do you arrest this reaction, because I know people feel it. Say someone irritates you, say you're a university student,

one of your friends in your social circles irritating you, maybe your feelings are actually rooted in quite a resentment that you might have figured out yet, and you start reducing them to just like, the ways that their life is easier than yours, which I think is a really common reaction nowadays. So it's you know, oh, this is why, this is why, this is why, and that's one of the ways we're stripping humanity

from people. How do you arrest that reaction? this is why, this is why, this is why, and that's one of the ways we're stripping humanity from people. How do you arrest that reaction? How do you see this person as like, you know, the moment someone's annoys you or irritates you or you feel hard done by them, do they not become this caricature villain where everything is just fine for them and they're so, you know, they're making your life harder in X, Y, Z way?

That's what I really wanna get at. Yeah, and that's different, right? And that's more, there's less about like, what kind of brand or image has someone built up for themselves? It's much more about like, what kind of image are they taking on within like your imagination and your perception?

And that's like, yeah, that is a slightly different thing. I think it's like shaped by our experiences of social media and then how we apply that to like, you know, quote unquote the real world. But no, I think that's a really good question. I think it- I've got some ideas but go on. No, no, no, it's a really good question.

And like, I'm interested to hear what you think about it. And like, I wonder if there's a way for it to not, not just be like, oh, think different things, right? Because it's like, well, if it was always that easy, we'd all just do it. I think like, I really rely on people around me, like my friends, my partner, my mom, to also tell me when I'm wrong about things.

So like when I'm like kicking off and I'm like, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, like, like this person, right, right, right, right, right. And like, I think the level of trust that exists in those relationships for someone to be like, I really hear you and I hear that like you are feeling all these things, but like maybe from their perspective, it's like this.

And I don't know, it's like, I really rely on those like external influences to like tell me when I'm being crazy. Thinking about my own legit reactions in this thing, because everything I say is things I know that I do, which is why I've tried to interrogate them. I think it's like a build a bear. I don't really know what build a bear is.

You build a bear, Ash. You build a bear, you have like a bear that you build, like you put arms and legs on the torso, you know, like you build a bear. Where? There's like, there's these workshops called build a bear. Oh, okay. I never built a bear, but I saw them.

I wasn't a bear kid. You know, 7% of the population still sleep with a cuddly toy. We saw this on blankety blank at the weekend. Anyway, build a bear. I see it as build a bear. It's like, you have to one by one. Okay, so first of all, you have to have the sort

of like self-awareness and the knowledge that there may be a pattern of enemies arising in your in your sight line. So let me put myself in the in the role of say, you know, a 19 year old self, maybe a 19 year old more. I don't think I had many enemies there. I think my ego was actually probably better than it is now. But let's say there was enemies, you know, various enemies, nemeses or people that I'm like, they have it so much easier, they have it so much easier, where's that coming from? First of all, you have to be aware,

hmm, and there may be too many people popping up who you think poorly of all the time and you have an instinctive negative reaction to, hmm, what could that mean? Remember, when you point a finger, there's three and a thumb sticking up, if you're doing gun fingers like we are, there's three and a thumb stacking up. If you're doing gun fingers like we are, there's three pointing back at you.

So the first of all is the ability to maybe look at that pattern. So when you catch yourself thinking these, you know, these negative thoughts about someone, and it's these very broad brush, paintbrush, watercolor, kind of sketch of a person, you're not thinking about, you know, their thoughts and feelings, you're like, this is them,

they have, they have family money. Oh, it was easy for them. It was this and that. Those, I think, are warning signs that I always get personally because of my own, you know, my own resentments. Yours might be different. Um, and then I think the next step is like, let's reattach one by one, different, like limbs, the building of air, different bits of humanity.

Okay. But, you know, you might resent the family money. Okay, but does that mean things have been easy for them? Does that mean that, you know, they, how would you put it? Like their pain is somehow, you know, they don't experience it. Everyone has different levels of pain, like, yeah, they might be irritating, but another limb, that doesn't make them the worst person in the world. Why am I so affected? Torso goes on like, why is this affecting me so much? Why is it them affecting me and not this person?

What does it say about me? And then when you really get to the depth of the resentment, because that's why I think so much of this comes from, you can become at peace with it. Because you're like, okay, I resent them because they come from more money. And I think that, you know, having family money is going to solve all my problems

and it would make my life easier. And it probably would, but okay, there's nothing I can do about that. There's nothing I can do. I have to come at peace with these things. Some people have them, some people don't. I have to like that person, but I can get rid of the resentment.

I think there's something here about like the way in which the language of like politics and like structural advantage gets sort of superimposed onto your social life. And I'm not saying that politics can't tell you something about your social life, but you also have to be precise and nuanced and reflexive when you do it.

And there was a conversation I was having with a colleague last week, and they were saying that it's quite interesting that like a lot of the mode of thinking that comes from that particular kind of identity politics where you see everyone around you including people who you're very close to through the lens of like their privileges and you know that kind of thing is that it's almost like the opposite of cognitive behavioral therapy. So rather than going, are my feelings always telling me the truth?

Because sometimes they don't, right? Like feeling that this person is out to get me or that this person is like trampling over me or you know, this person is a reflection of all these things I don't have. In CBT, you're sort of trained to think, well, okay, actually, maybe some of these things are emerging from me and things that I need to get a hold of.

The way in which we've sort of like understood identity politics and put it right on top of our interpersonal dynamics is saying, no, your most difficult feelings of resentment or frustration or having been victimized in some way, that's always telling you the truth, right? That's not just a political understanding, it's like an internal compass. And I think that that has cultivated a way of being which is self-destructive, like internally corrosive, I think it also leads to

and like compounds loneliness and feelings of separation and like a lack of like commonality with people around you. I also think that like it's actually politically bad. Like if what you're wanting to do is like work with people to a common goal, this is the number one way to stop that happening, because guess what? Everyone has a subjectivity.

So if like the subjectivity is like, you know, first and foremost, like nothing will happen. Like, like, trust me, nothing will happen. But yeah, I think that that comes from like a way of like, the way that political understanding has almost become a permission slip to not cultivate like stores of like resilience and

Forgiveness and empathy Like I think I think it's interesting to me that the language of accountability Has almost come like almost almost become a kind of secular religion. I think particularly for millennials and Gen Z, the word accountability is so prominent. And the language of forgiveness is almost treated with a degree of suspicion.

But there's a reason why pretty much every major religion is like, you know, accountability is for God, forgiveness is for you. Like, I'm not saying that every major religion actually sticks by that, but I think, I think there's a reason why that is kind of in the practical ethics of it. Do you know what I mean? Because otherwise you wouldn't be able to operate. Couldn't operate.

And also like, you're not always a good judge. You're like, no. Well, it's God, Osby, he knows, they all know it. Because otherwise you wouldn't be able to operate couldn't operate and also like you're not always a good judge No, where's God? Oh, no is the all-knowing? And you know, you can do everything I identify with him so much He's just like me for real. Yeah, I guess I guess do we have a resolution Do we have an answer to this? No, I guess I guess maybe what I'm Inter interested in is like, for you in particular, is like,

do you feel that at some point you're gonna have to draw a line between who you can engage with and who you can persuade of your humanity, and maybe those where you go, you're just gonna have to dislike me. I think it's a pointless, the experiment I did, I think it is a pointless episode. It has taught me there is little reason

in trying to persuade someone. They have to do it themselves. It just makes me sad. And I wanted to bring it to the podcast as a way to try and get people to, and myself, interrogate the processes that go through their mind in writing someone else off, as not just someone that they might dislike

for various reasons, but share commonalities with as well. But as someone who, because of that dislike or the resentment, they can be so, they appear so other to them, that they appear in a different plane of existence. And that's what I wanted, you know, I can't persuade those people, but I can get people listening to think about how that might be poisoning them as well, because it's not good for you. I've done so much resentment and it's not good for you. Was it drinking poison and expecting the other person to die? Exactly, expecting the other person to die. But it just, and the freedom when you,

I'm thinking particularly of like, some people that I love very dearly but have resented very much, the freedom when you truly do detach from their outcomes, having to be, and the resentment that you might feel about the way they conduct themselves in their life. When you say, that is not a reflection of me, also the way that they behave

has nothing really to do with me, that really changed you. I also think, and this is a big theory, which is like, you know, maybe can go into in detail like another time, there's a difference between victimhood and vulnerability. Victimhood is an identity, and I think people can become attached

to the sense of status and virtue and certainty that can give you, whereas vulnerability is relational, right? You're not the same level of vulnerable in every single circumstance. It's not relational, right? You're not the same level of vulnerable in every single circumstance. It's not competitive, right? And a victim is like, there can only be one and there has to be a perpetrator.

Whereas vulnerability is like, you can talk about people's vulnerabilities and you can think about, you know, that they're simultaneous. I think that it also encourages you to like, exit the brain a little bit. So it's not just like, what's my subjective experience? Because everyone can experience themselves as a victim.

It's not always fucking true. Whereas vulnerability, you do have to talk a little bit about like what T.S. Eliot would have called the objective correlative, right? Like what's really happening. And I think that, I mean, just to like give some concrete examples of where I've had to shift my thinking in that.

Like, I will never not be curious about the lives of people who racially abused me online. And it's just like, I want to know, I wanna know who you are. There was this one time it happened, this was years and years and years ago, and someone had been DMing me racial abuse, and I shared a screenshot of the abuse,

including his name. And then his wife was messaging me, being like, please, can you take this down? Like, this isn't an excuse, but he struggled with depression for a really long time. Like, I think either, like, being outed as a racist either caused him to lose his job or get in trouble or something like that. And I felt like shit, man.

Like, I felt like such so wrong, but I don't feel good ruining somebody's life. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't feel good about that. And rather than thinking about it, and I think that maybe my initial reaction was to go, how dare you bring his victimhood into it, because I'm the victim of his abuse. Is that actually I can see the vulnerabilities

existing simultaneously. That doesn't mean he's morally justified or that he doesn't have responsibilities to regulate his urges and his behavior. But like those vulnerabilities existed simultaneously. And I felt so righteous in my experience of victimhood that I failed to take my responsibility seriously. Does that make sense?

Yeah, of course. It's like, the thing is you recognize your humanity and then you're like, oh, maybe this path of vengeance was not the one that is actually gonna bring me satisfaction. I mean, look, I took it down and I can't remember, I think he said thank you in the end or something like that. I'm glad I scared the shit out of him though. Yeah. Like I was like, I think you learned a lesson, but also so did I. Yeah. Well, that's maybe the best possible outcome. Two lessons being learned. Two lessons being learned. About shared humanity. I hate having to improve as a person. I just want to stay here in my fucking primordial form.

Oh, I want to call into bed and stay. And ooze. I want to ooze. Maybe if I get put to sleep for like, maybe, I don't know, five years. Not enough that the climate is breaking down fully. Let's think, let's work or, let's workshop. Let's workshop.

The coma. The medically induced coma. The coma length. The first, problems. Oh. That was the dilemmas noise. That's the dilemmas noise. This is, I'm in big trouble. And if you would like to send a problem

where you are in big trouble or even small trouble, you know, like don't let the name put you off or medium trouble medium trouble any all experiences of trouble welcome we are inclusive send it to if I speak at NavaraMedia.com I should say before we start this we obviously have a segment called Miss Connections we do a segment called Miss Connections which I'm not gonna lie I can't be asked to do anymore. But because we have found people, we have found someone. We made a connection. We made a connection.

And you guys are sending me all these great connections, but we've only found one person out of many. And also some of your connections are getting a little bit like maybe I should be reporting these, you know? Really? Some of the, some people, and I don't wanna call you now, we're having connections where people,

sometimes just being like, I saw this person on TV. That's not a connection. That's not a misconnection. That's not a misconnection. This, you don't, don't use the portal wrong, but we did connect someone. We connected the person who's wrote in about seeing, meeting a lovely Scottish man in Glasgow,

and then saw him on the bus. And banged on the window, or the friend banged on the window. And was thinking about moving to Glasgow. We have connected them in not a romantic sense though. Okay, but that's nice. Said in a friend sense, but we did connect them. I think maybe, because I think Miss Connections

is a bit difficult to do all year round. I reckon. I know we're getting loads at the moment. I reckon we should just do a summer one. But then we're getting winter ones and I feel maybe we have to do one more round. Okay, this is your warning. One more round of Miss Connections and then it's summer only. And then summer only. Or maybe just quarterly.

Like every time you have to do a like VAT return, we will do Miss Connections. I don't have to do a VAT return, you've revealed something there Ash. Four times a year, okay. So quarterly with Ash's VAT returns, we're doing this connection, but so you can send ones in. I will do a final one probably in the new year. But after that, hold your Miss connections. Cause yeah, that's just become taxing.

It's become taxing. Shall I read the first one? Yeah, go on. Hi, Ashen Moya. Firstly, I have to say I'm a big fan of the podcast and yourselves. I can't tell you how many times you've explained things, both political and personal, that I've thought but never been able to fully articulate to myself. I really forgot how to read like mid-sentence there.

You've really helped me understand myself more. Oh, so I thought. This is good. This is a good one. Also, okay, narrative. For context, I am a straight man in my late 20s who has been single since his early 20s. I've had relationships before, though often short-lived, and one of which I was madly in love, my first when I was 17. After a string of bad experiences, I realized I needed to work on myself. Over the course of a few years, I learned how to be single and really came to love myself, perhaps too much as I became hyper-independent. I went through the whole

I don't want a relationship phase and eventually admitted to myself, aided by a couple of years of therapy, that a relationship might be nice, but my standards remained extremely high as I thought only something amazing could be better than being single. I'm semi-regularly on hinge, though not very active, and I would often quickly become bored with anyone I talked to. Only one girl over the space of a few years ever really captured my attention, though she entered it after a couple of dates, that is, until I matched with who is now my girlfriend. From, until I matched with the woman who is now my girlfriend. From the off, this was different.

I felt so compelled to give her more than the usual two or three messages a day. We had similar interests, similar values, similar humour. We talked about our families and the ways they negatively shaped us, and we quickly came to realise we understood each other in a way no one else seemed to. Very quickly, I found myself going from someone who insists that dating should be taken slowly to someone who was in a relationship in a matter of weeks. It seemed like a no-brainer. It felt like everything every other relationship wasn't. I was so comfortable, it was so secure. She very clearly liked me and I knew beyond any doubt that I liked her. I even

told myself that if this one doesn't work then I must be simply incapable of love. Fast forward not much time at all, I feel like the weight of the world is on my shoulders. It is as if overnight my feelings have all but disappeared and I don't know why. I feel terrible and stupid. There is simply no reason for me to feel this way. My girlfriend is great, but the thought that this is my life now fills me with dread, and I can feel myself looking for the door. The only thing I can identify that could possibly explain my feelings is that the anxiety of previous relationships is what kept me interested. I hate to put it in these terms, but maybe it was just the thrill of the chase. I'm not sure. Maybe the security bores me. I don't know what to do. Do I need to get out of my own way and give myself to this relationship?

How would I even go about doing that? It feels like there's just something wrong with me that won't allow me to. Or do I end things? It feels almost evil to do that. But then again, so does staying if I'm not going to treat her like she deserves, and like I've advertised I would in the short time we've been together so far. Help me Ashen Moya, you're my only hope. I was getting some real Star Wars vibes from that. Help me Obi Wan, yours an especially guilty one. Do you want to go first? I think you should break up, but not because you're a bad person. I just think that it's run its course

and sometimes this happens in relationships that like you really, really like someone, you're really into them and the feeling disappears. And because they're a really good person and you can't locate any flaw in them, you go, ah, well, the flaw must be in me. But you're still in your late twenties, like in the grand scheme of things, that's young.

And you know, maybe you break up and you get a bit of time and you start to see the things about the relationship or the situation or your place in life where you go, yeah, I wasn't ready for that right now. But I don't think you have to feel guilty about it. I think that the like most important thing here is that like, I feel you're interpreting things through a very shame laden frame.

Do you know what I mean? Like it just, it feels like there's a lot of guilt and a lot of shame and almost a lot of like self pathologizing where maybe there doesn't need to be. You know, you're not a bad person for wanting to break up. And like, it might really hurt her, but that's like, that's what happens in relationships. Do you know what I mean?

I don't know, what do you reckon? It's really hard because I think everything's case by case, isn't it? And the problem is I don't know the narrative of the girl. I don't know what actually happened here. You've given some clues. You know, you said you found yourself going from someone who insists dating should be taken slowly

to someone who was in a relationship in a matter of weeks. I don't wanna pathologize further, but it seems a bit as if you guys rushed into it. And you said that you bonded based on talking about our families and the way they negatively shaped us. We understood each other in a way no one else seemed to. It's given a classic of the romantic genre, the short-lived infatuation. Yeah, with a little bit of trauma bonding.

Well, a little bit of trauma bonding, yeah. The short-lived infatuation. I actually prescribe a short-lived infatuation to everyone at some point. Dr. Moya. I think it's important because then you have a comparison. Because the short-lived infatuation, the bones of it are what you were told that love is meant to feel like by movies.

It's like you meet immediately and you have this incredible connection and it's like nothing else and you're spending all your time together. No one's understood me the way you understand me. We quickly came to realize we understood each other in a way that no one else seemed to. No one's understood me the way you understand me. We quickly came to realize we understood each other in a way that no one else seemed to. No one understands me like that.

You know, you, and it's very that meme, the Tobias Funke meme, which is one of my favorite memes in the whole world, which is, you know, doesn't work for anyone else, but it might just work for us. You think, hang on, people who haven't been in a, you know, everyone who gets in a relationship within like a week, they seem to burn out, but not us, we're going to go forever and ever. And then

three months down the line, you're like, fuck, actually, maybe this has burned out. This has burned out. I think about that a lot. And I think an infatuation is, it's important to go through, but unless you can identify that's what's going on, and I can't 100% from this letter, I don't know, there's so many gaps, like, unless you can identify that's what's gone on. And because it could also be that actually, maybe this is an avoidance thing. Maybe this is a thing of, you know, you get into relationships and when they're really good and calm, then you get scared because you, you know, your, your triggers, feelers are going off and you're like, I need to get out because this is the rest of my life forever and I'm trapped. I'm trapped. Because you also wrote that you said the thought that this is my life now fills me with dread.

What does fill you? What about it fills with dread? I wish we had a couple more details of like, what are the aspects that fill you with dread? The idea of just being in a relationship or is it specific stuff about being in a relationship with this person? Because those are two very different things. You need to think about that. It is different, but you don't always know at the time.

Like I remember being in a situation where like, yeah, I'd really, really loved somebody. And I don't know, I've spoken about this before where I felt so ashamed of not wanting to be in the relationship anymore. And like, just so afraid like to be by myself and knowing that what I wanted to do was not be in it. And I think at that point, I was like,

this is me being fucked up. Like I am damaged, I am being avoidant, I'm self-sabotaging, rah rah rah rah rah. And like, actually it wasn't. It was like, with the benefit of a bit of time, I could just see that like, I was at a point in my life where like, I did sort of need to work out what I

wanted for me to pursue those things and then I could be ready for like a Committed relationship again But I couldn't I couldn't have told you that at the time like it just it took It took quite a while to work out that that's why I didn't want to be in that relationship anymore And I suppose that's why I'm saying that like, I don't think you necessarily need the explanation now. I just think that you need to break up. You're not committing a crime and-

I don't know, I disagree. You disagree. I think you should know. I think you should try and find the explanation. I think that so many young men, one of the things that plays in the most is they don't know what they want or why they're doing things. Yeah, but I just don't know. I don't think that's just young men, one of the things that plagues them the most is they don't know what they want or why they're doing things.

Yeah, but I just don't think that's just young men. I just think that's young people. I think young people, but I really see it with young men. I'm not saying that in like, young men, you're evil because you don't know what you want. I'm saying like, this is something I see. Which is, by the way, like a really aggressive version of the YMCA. Young man, you don't know what you want, a sad young man.

But I think it's something that I see really plaguing young men. So if I have the opportunity to urge you to really interrogate why you want something and not just kind of go with the flow of it, I'll give you a little anecdote, okay? Oh, anecdote. Here's a fun anecdote from my life. So I don't give a fuck about blowing this person up on the podcast anymore. No, they haven't done anything evil. They just didn't know what they wanted.

So before I left London for a bit, for a year, I went on a couple of dates with someone who I really fancied. Nothing happened at all, but they didn't know what they wanted. So clearly they didn't know what they wanted. They claimed they wanted to see me, but they were really flaky.

And they're like, no, I really enjoy hanging out with you. But then they just ghosted. And I was like, that's fine, actually. Like, we don't know each other. claim they want to see me but they're really flaky and they're like no I really enjoy hanging out with you but then they just ghost and I was like that's fine actually like we don't know each other it's fine to ghost me like you don't know what you want. Everything they were saying was like I'm really into you and everything they were doing was like no you don't know what you want that's that's why the communication isn't matching up and then like a week or two ago they messaged me from the depths of my archive being like, oh, I'm coming to where you are.

Do you have any tips? And I was like, tips? You've, you've, you've un-ghosted me to ask- Tip one, leave me alone. To ask me to act as fucking time out as if I don't have a life. Like also they know the city Beth and I do for a start. So I was kinda like, do they actually,

are they trying to angle to see me? It screams pretext. But this is the thing, clearly they didn't know what they wanted. If they wanted to see me and they knew that, and they'd worked that out in their head, they would've said, do you wanna hang out? And I'd be like, yeah, let's fuck.

I don't give a heck, nothing's gonna happen here. We may as well get our rocks off, but they didn't want that. But they didn't know what they wanted, which is why they were asking for tips. And we had a weird back and forth, where I was like, do you actually want tips? And they're like, yeah.

I was like, are you treating me like Time Out? And they're like, no, Google, lol. But their communication was so different to me. When I was trying to communicate, I said, you've un-ghosted me to ask me to act as Time Out. And then I was like, well, I don't have any tips because I've been working too hard. I don't know the city that well.

There were several ways of being like, go away. And they were like, oh, I don't have any tips because I've been working too hard. Like I don't know the city that well, you know. Um, several ways of being like, you know, go away and they're like, Oh, fair enough. And I was like, did you actually just ask, like, did you really just message me for tips? And they're like, no, we'll see how you're doing. It's like, they don't know what they wanted. If I'd have gone, do you want to hang out? They might have been like, yeah, maybe. But they also probably would have been like, yeah, I think I'd maybe, yeah. But also maybe not. They didn't know what they wanted in messaging me.

So the message communication was as unclear as the rest of our interactions. That's why I think you need to know. I'm not sure that they really don't know themselves in that moment. I think that's a case of what I described as walking backwards, right? You're walking backwards into something.

You don't really wanna look at like, the knowledge that you do have, because then you would have to like, understand your responsibilities to another person. So you start walking backwards into it. And there's a thing which is like, well, I've not spoken to her for a long time, so I guess I need a pre, you know what I mean?

It's like a way of like. If you just, no, because I fully am like, as an adult, right, there's people that I've ghosted. I would never go back there if I didn't know what I wanted. There's people I've thought about being like, maybe I should hit them up, because I like spending time with them. No, unless I can explicitly say,

hey, I know I did this, I'd really like to see again, totally fine if not, this is what I'm about, then I will never go back there because I don't know what I want. It's unfair to fucking do that to someone else. But what you're talking about isn't just knowing what you want. What you're talking about is connecting what you do

to knowing what you want. And that connection isn't always there for people. And I suppose the thing I'm saying- You should try. I should try. I guess the thing I'm saying for this special one, and stop calling yourself a guilty one, because again, breaking up with someone is not a crime,

is that sometimes knowledge takes time. Sometimes self-knowledge takes time, sometimes understanding yourself takes time. And self-knowledge takes time, sometimes understanding yourself takes time. And I think particularly for people who are like very familiar with the language and framework of therapy, there can be a drive to self-pathologize, which doesn't actually get you closer to the truth. And this is, I guess, where I'm saying take take some time with it. Like, take some time with it. Because I do think that there's like a little bit of a trend where like everything has to be some kind of like pathology

rather than just like human working some shit out and that the conclusions you might come to about your behaviour and the things that drive you might not fit the mould or the template that's given to you from these models. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does make sense, but I think this person, I'm not saying they shouldn't break up, but I think this person needs to sit down and really look at what they actually want from a relationship. I guess it's like, again, just thinking about that time. What's wrong about this one?

I think, again, having felt so guilty in that relationship, I knew I had to break up, and then it took me time to, like, if I'm being completely honest, it took me probably two and a half, nearly three years to work out what I wanted from a relationship. Like, and I don't, I'm not angry at myself for it taking that much time.

I just had to like live a bit more life. Yeah, I think that's fair. It's just, you know, he's saying, do I get up, need to get out of my own way and give myself a relationship? How would I go about doing that? It's like, there's something wrong with me that won't allow me to.

There's more. What if there isn't? There might be, but what if there isn't? I don't, I think there's other stuff going on. I think the patterns of behavior with the, you know, the boredom on hinge, the needing someone to catch my attention, the massively high standards, I have all those things.

And do you know what? There's lots wrong with me. Yeah, but I- I'm a sick puppy. I disagree. I just think you're a poorly puppy lots wrong with me. I'm a sick puppy. I disagree. I just think you're a poorly puppy. I don't think you're a sick puppy. I'm poorly right now, but I am sick. Like when my tarot reader at the end,

I reluctantly was like- Your tarot reader is not a professional. No, this is something I did. This is something I did. So at the end, I reluctantly asked about romance and she was like, yeah, someone's actually gonna turn up like end of next year. And I said, are they gonna get in the way of my career though?

Sick puppy. Yeah, fine, like. Sick puppy. Yeah, because like the way we respond to things in the abstract is different from how we respond to things when they're really there. But that's all we've got time for. Merry Christmas, you clean animals.

It's not filthy. I mean, that Merry Christmas was really like... I'm afraid we're gonna have to put the dog down. Not everyone is celebrating Christmas. Some people are simply observing a time of year where there is a bank holiday. Yeah and everybody likes that so like in particular hold tight boss man who is working at the shop and so when you realize that you didn't get the amaretto like your mum asked for, you can go get it. Happy Christmas to you.

Happy Christmas. Goodbye. Bye. Thanks for watching!