If I Speak - 46: Porn is everywhere. How damaging is it really?

Episode Date: January 7, 2025

What happens when sex becomes an online stunt? Ash and Moya discuss OnlyFans creator Lily Phillips, who challenged herself to have sex with 100 men in one day, and wonder if the radical feminists were right about porn. Plus: advice for a listener struggling to build deeper friendships. Email your dilemmas to [e-mail] Music by […]

Hello and welcome to If I Speak. Full disclosure, we are recording this towards the end of December so that I've got time to have a week of holiday in January. So if something really massive has happened and you're like, why aren't Moira and Ash talking about the nuclear war that's just broken out in London? That's because it hasn't happened to us yet. You're so London centric. Why is the nuclear war just in London? Well, because it would need to happen there in order for us to talk about it. Otherwise it is for a different product. I'm not even in London. Not even, I'm not even there. Do you,

when the nuclear war happens and you're frazzled and I'm left to carry the burden, burden shoulder, shoulder the burden of if I speak alone, will that not, does that not matter? Shoulder the burden of if I speak alone. Will that not, does that not matter? Is that not crucial? What would you do? What would you do? Would you find a different Bengali, do you think?

No, that would be tokenistic. I would just find a different woman. No, obviously first of all, what we'd have to find is a radio transmitter that worked and enough people who were willing to listen. Imagine being like, it's a nuclear wasteland and you've got your hands on like one of the few little bits of communications infrastructure and it's like, okay, welcome to If I Speak, broadcasting from the nuclear wasteland for the girlies and the gays.

There would still be people out there who are like making podcasts needing to talk about women's body counts. I truly believe that in the nuclear wasteland, there's a man there with a podcast mic. Do you think that body count discourse, because there'd of course be fewer bodies available, so would the number have to then go downwards? No, body count discourse would just be literal. It'd be talking about how many bodies are in your yard this morning. That, body count discourse would just be literal. It'd be talking about how many bodies are in your yard this morning.

Oh my God. That's body count discourse. Words evolve. Language evolves. Before we, when we hit record, we were talking about like movie ideas that we both have, podcasters at the apocalypse, I think. That could be a very funny sitcom. Actually might just be a sketch.

It may just be a sketch, but it would be a good sketch. It would be an excellent sketch. How are you doing? I'm all right. You know, let's pretend we're in January. Big things have happened. Huge moves have been made. That's, I'm manifesting.

I'm manifesting that energy. Big tings are going. Moira, do you have questions? Do you have questions for me? I do. I tings of guan. Moir, do you have questions? Do you have questions for me? I do, I do have questions. Okay. Question, oh, this is 73 questions minus 70,

which we're still doing. Which is still a thing in January for sure. Regardless of the nuclear war. It's still going on. Okay. Shag, marry, kill, social network edition. Oh. Ready? So what does that mean? I'm giving you the three. Okay. I'm giving you the three. Okay. Instagram, X and LinkedIn.

Kill them all. Nope, not acceptable. You have to choose at this point in the game. Kill them all. Nope, not acceptable. You have to choose that's the point of the game. Has to be Kill X, although I do prefer a text-based medium. Shag Instagram, marry LinkedIn, but I don't feel strongly about this. Doesn't matter, you've answered.

The point is that you answered. This is a game where you're funneled into answering. Yeah, but I would, like really it's kill, kill, kill. And yet Ash, I noticed that you have not migrated to blue sky. I haven't, so I want to like, like just finding the time to like set it up. I haven't, I haven't had enough time for it

because I've been, I've been frazzled, Moira. Not, not because of nuclear war, just, just normal frazzled. So like trying to have enough time to like do all the things I've got to do for work and also just be like a social animal in touch with like my friends and loved ones. Are you telling me that you've been too busy touching grass to move to another social network?

Yeah, which you think would sound more emotionally healthy, but... Can I just say, I actually don't think there's any impetus to move to Blue Sky, which is, for the listeners who don't know, a social media network that is basically a complete copy of Twitter, because you're set up by the same guy, Jack Dorsey, and now as Twitter slash X has, I guess really just mask off, someone's put it as a 4chan, but with like more memes. Then lots of people have migrated over there

and I did for a bit, but you're listening to this in January. So by now, hopefully my page will have been deleted several, I've deleted my X and my blues guy. Cause I was just like, it really was unusable being on Twitter. It really had got to a point where you could notice the difference. Like none of the work that I posted got any traction, there was no engagement. And by that I mean like actual discussion or conversation that I used to get when I'd post work. The only things I would ever get

engagement is if I posted, you know, any kind of rant or tirade or complaint and that felt really unhealthy. And just going on there, even when you've been on Blue Sky, which I have to say is very boring, you go from Blue Sky to X and you just be like, wow, everyone here is fucking nuts and they do not realize that they are frogs in a, like we were all frogs, but you don't realize how much the register has changed even from a few months ago. Like it was bad, but now it really is. The points that you're arguing and contending with

are just pure far right points. Like everyone is arguing on the terms of the far right now and the discussions they're having, like I don't even bother getting into them. I walked in the other day and there was, you know, people were talking about zone one housing and it was just like pure eugenics, social cleansing shit. And everyone was engaging with it

as if it was in good faith. There was another tweet I saw, which was about like Amelia Demymbmbable, the chicken shop girl. People have complained about Amelia, I think mostly from a place of bitterness, there's some like legit critique, whatever, but mostly from a place of bitterness, I would say. She's someone who made something very successful

from the ground up, she has like a pretty solid middle-class background, like all of the people, you know, take it and be like, why is she getting into this, why is she getting into that, et cetera. I get it. We all have resentments, you know, take it and be like, why is she getting to this? Why is she getting to that, et cetera. I get it. We all have resentments, you know? But underneath this tweet,

which was complaining about her and her father, because her father's a counselor, it was just pure antisemitism. Like just outright, like I'd seen tweets, the open one being like, of course there is, her father is this guy. She's got like a privileged background, blah, blah, blah. There's privileged discourse.

Another thing I hate, but can't be bothered with. But underneath it was just literally stuff like, oh, see the surname, it says it all. They're Jewish, that says it all. And it was like crazy, just masculine. And you see that everywhere now. The levels of like Nazism on Twitter are insane. I mean, I am just using it a lot less.

And like also, because people would think that like for me, that politics was the most important function of Twitter for me. And of course, like in terms of career, hugely. But the thing that I loved about Twitter is football Twitter, basically. And like fucking like talking shit like on match days, like love it.

Like one of my favorite, favorite things to do. I love football, I don't even like football that much. Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean? Like in so many ways, like love it. Like one of my favorite, favorite things to do. I love football, I don't even like football that much. Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean? Like in so many ways, like this podcast, like the, if I speak name is born from football Twitter, really and Twitter like losing its functionality in just that really basic way.

And obviously like there's still a huge audience out there for like shit talk about sports. But, like, Twitter being unable to, like, capture that, or for me to find a way into it, I was just like, there is no point in me using this anymore. But anyway, what's your second and your third question? Because we could do a Death of Twitter episode one day. We could. I think we should do a Death of Posting episode at some point, because it would be good. I mean, God bless.

Maybe I'll have challenged my energies to better things, but deleting blue sky at the same time as Twitter, I was just like, I don't, I don't want Twitter. And I why do I don't even feel compelled to post in blue sky. I feel performing like performatively, like I have to perform. This is not the right word. It wasn't even compelled. It was like, I feel like I have to try and recreate the space. And actually I don't want to.

So I just deleted them both. Right, second question. Are you good, this is a very January inspired one, are you good at drinking enough water in a day? Okay, right. So I'm gonna show you something on camera and then I'll describe it. Ash is showing me a purple water bottle.

It is very large. It looks slightly phallic. Everyone thinks it's phallic. And I think it's because it's the same shade of lilac that like sex toys come in. Do you know what I mean? So this is a liter and a half. This is the big boy.

Men get very uncomfortable around it. Moja, how big is that? 750? It looks 750. I think it's probably a 750. I couldn't tell you. It's enough to get me through. I drink a lot of them a day.

So yeah, like I have this to make sure that like, what I'm out and about in my working day, I've got like most of my water intake and then obviously drink more water at home. So I think I do. What about you? I do drink enough water in a day. I'm very hydrated and I pee a lot. Really?

Yes. A powerful stream, a little weak, weedy one? No, multiple, different types, Ash. I like to mix it up. Often a powerful stream and the right color too. So it was that thing of like, what if Bear Grylls made you drink your piss? And I'm like, I'd be fine.

I'd be fine. No, look, no one is fine for a while because urine's got all the toxins that it's supposed to get out. You shouldn't drink piss, like even if you're dying of thirst. No, you shouldn't, but Bear Grylls is a sadist, no, it's not a sadist, a fetishist

who wants to see other people drink piss, their own piss. I'm pretty sure the entire show is just built around him needing to get his rocks off, watching people drink their own urine. But whatever. But you shouldn't do it. It'll basically make all the bad things that happen from being dehydrated, like make it happen faster.

Hmm, interesting. Sounds like alcohol. Okay, I have a New Year's. New Year's quadrant. A New Year's quadrant for you, which I'm doing very bad at getting into my face. I can't see it at all. I'm gonna explain it to you, okay?

So at the bottom in my chicken scratch scroll, it says flopping. Flopping. Vertical slaying. Slaying. Then one of these, I think this one, burnt out, refreshed. So we've got flopping, slaying, burnt out, refreshed. Where are you?

Where do you think you are when this episode comes out? I don't know. I hope that when it comes out, I'll be slaying and refreshed because I'm going to Rome for a week immediately after New Year's. I'm gonna go to Rome for a week with my partner. And there are two things that I love in this world.

And I'm constantly talking about and fascinated by. One is the Romans, two, it's the Catholic Church. And would you know it, Rome's got both. Have you been to Rome before? Yeah, when I was like eight or nine. Oh my God, so this is your first adult Rome trip. First adult Rome trip. Ash, okay, well I'm sure you've got

so many recommendations, but all I will say is fuck the Sistine Chapel, it's the papal apartments that really are the shit. See, the thing that I really remember, and again, it's like being a kid, so like, you know, whatever, was there was a temple of Mithras underneath a church, which was amazing. And like, you go deeper and deeper into the temple

of Mithras and there's like a underground river, like an underground stream, which then obviously flows into the Tiber. Never seen that either. That's very cool. It's like in a church or to the side of the church, the Capuchin monks kept all their skeletons and they made all these weird reliefs. So I want to go back to that.

Obviously when you're eight years old, you're the coolest thing ever. Because the Capuchins are so pagan. So pagan. So, so pagan. They're with all their bones and all the boxes. They just loved it. Relics. If you had to leave behind a relic, which is like a bit of your body, what would it be?

So it'd be St. Moir's whatever. And it would have powers of some kind, powers to heal. I think it'd be one of my giant eyes. One of your ginormous eyes. One of my big, I have big lamp like eyes, I would say. This has been told to me by many people, including ex-partners. I think one was describing me as,

what are those animals that you can, Australian animals. Bush babies. Bush babies. Yeah, that kind of vibe. My eyes and the powers. I feel like they give like really wishy-washy shit powers. Like the power to see your heart's desire. And then the monks are like, that's 20 guineas please, on your way.

20 guineas on your way. What about you? What are you leaving behind? I don't know, I guess maybe, cause I gesture a lot. So I do a lot of hand talking. So maybe a finger, maybe an index finger. Saint Sarka's finger.

Saint Sarka's finger. And I think what it would do is, it would have the power, if you're scolding somebody, to make them take your advice. Is this a Roald Dahl short story. It is, I think so. That's a bit like, no, there is a short story and I can't remember what it's called.

Maybe it's Dickensmith. They turn them into birds. I can't remember the exact story, but it's one that's sort of in my brain. Where are you on the quadrant, by the way? Right now or in January? Right now. So right now at the time of recording. Right now, I'm right at the end of of burnout and I'm in the flopping bit. So I'm right here. I'm burnt out and flopping. But hopefully by January I'll be on my way in the middle of,

I would say, I don't think, let's be realistic. I'm not going to be slaying yet, but I'd hopefully be in the middle of all of them there. I think right now I'm in the middle. I'm not going to be slaying yet, but I'd hopefully be in the middle. All of all of them. I think right now I'm in the middle. I'm nothing. Okay. Yeah. You're, you're a blank canvas. You're waiting for Rome to take you.

I'm waiting to be taken over by Rome. Right. I'm going to move us along. So this week I have a big theory. This week I have a big theory. So I've been thinking about this for a really long time and I think I feel able to say it with both the strength of feeling with which I think this thing but also with the room for nuance and I think that I found it quite difficult to reconcile those two things before now. And the big theory is this. I'm starting to think that the radical feminists were right about porn.

I'm obviously concerned about leaning into the stigmatization of sex workers, and that's not my intention. And hopefully in what I'm about to say, you'll see that I'm trying to like not come at this from a like puritanical anti sex or anti sex worker perspective. But basically I am increasingly of the mind that porn is doing really bad things to us to society to sex and to the mental health of young

men in particular. A few weeks ago now we had a special one write in and talk about the fact that their partner had been struggling with porn addiction. And it was a dilemma which stuck with me for a while. And it's because actually, it's something which I'm hearing about more and more often, not just in terms of like reading articles about porn addiction or, you know, kind of a compulsive relationship to porn, but also like with within my circle of friends and people I know, people will say like, I'm having real trouble with this thing. And it's quite striking to me that the far right have a super clear message to young men. They say,

get in the gym, stop watching porn. Even somebody like Andrew Tate, who is a screaming misogynist, will say to young men, stop watching porn. Now, the reason for that is, again, rooted in misogyny, Andrew Tate is like, you should be taking money from these women rather than them effectively taking money from you because you've subscribed to their only fans or whatever. Andrew Tate, the man who runs cam girls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think that he's sort of saying something which has a kernel of truth to it, which is like this thing is making you less resilient. It's making you more depressed.

It's making you less able to fulfill your potential. Now how he defines potential is purely within exploitative, transactional, and I think violent terms. It's a violent idea of what relationships are like, but that doesn't mean that there isn't that kernel of truth there. And I think that when you look at what's happening within the porn industry, I think that there are reasons to be kind of disturbed. So I think that what we're seeing over on OnlyFans is a sort of like Mr. Beastification of being an OnlyFans content producer. So you've got this OnlyFans content producer

called Lily Phillips, and she's gone, well, not just viral, but she's broken through into mainstream press because of these stunts where she says, oh yeah, I'm gonna have sex with 100 guys in one day. She's now saying it's gonna be a thousand guys in one day. I'm not sure if that's physically possible. You've got another OnlyFans content producer, Bonnie Blue,

who makes a real effort to go on mainstream radio shows and to cause controversy by being like, I think cheating on your partner is a good thing. Now, the reason why they're doing this is because it is very difficult if you're on OnlyFans to make enough money from it because there's so much competition. So if you join OnlyFans and you've got a following

or you're famous through some other means, that benefits you. If you're not, you're going to have to cultivate some other kind of fame. And so that's what I think these women are doing. I completely understand it. But regardless of whether or not you're actually doing it, I think there are reasons to be skeptical of the idea of whether or not someone's actually having sex with a hundred people or a thousand people or whatever it is. But regardless of whether or not you actually do it, I don't think that just having a like lazy sex positive thing of like, oh, well, if that's what she wants to do, that's fine. It's like, no, I think there's something like degrading about this, both

to yourself for doing it, but also to like all these young men who are like queuing up and like, you know, literally lining up down the corridor to like, you know, like come on somebody's face. Like, that's kind of like fucked up. I think that porn has changed, well not changed, I think that it is profoundly shaped expectations of women who have public face and social media. So I get DM'd on like I would say a daily basis from men who I do not know asking me to provide sexualized images of myself, so either whole body or certain body parts, or to participate in sexualized activity in some way. Now that is not my job.

Like that is not my job, but they do it because it's like, well, you're a woman. I can see pictures of you that puts you in a relationship with porn in some way. Um, and that's super fucked up. Like it's, it's, it's super fucked up. some way. And that's super fucked up. Like it's super fucked up. I also think that there's a whole side to the porn industry that we do not see. And, you know, I mentioned Andrew Tate earlier, the key allegation about his alleged sex trafficking operation is that he has groomed and coerced women into being cam girls. Now, this is something which he has boasted about the so-called lover boy method, where you meet a woman, you romance her, and you establish a form of

control based on validation and how you withhold it, to make her do your will, in this case, becoming a cam girl. So I think that there is a relationship between, and I'm not saying that every person who's gotten only fans, and I'm not saying that everyone who's gone into porn has this going on, but I'm saying that I think it's a significantly under-reported and under-examined phenomenon,

is the role of grooming and coercive relationships in getting someone to the point where they produce pornography. The financials are deeply exploitative. A few years ago, I interviewed Mia Khalifa, who had been the most popular porn performer on Pornhub for years. And I asked her how much money she made, and it was minuscule. And not only that, she has no rights over any of the content that was produced.

And so she's sort of sitting there being like, I've delivered this my entire life, and it was like $500 a scene or whatever else it was. Like, it was really not very much money at all. Meanwhile, like, she was like the most popular porn performer, like on the biggest porn site on the planet and she's seeing none of it and it's and it's shaping her life forever, right? Shaping her life forever. So yeah, I don't want to throw the baby out with a bath water. I do think that porn can play an important role in getting to know yourself or your partner sexually.

I'm not coming at this from a like, be abstinent or like sexual purity or that like, you know, there's something inherently shameful about sex. But I think that there is something really corrosive about porn, how it's made, what it's doing to us as a society. And I think that one of the problems is, is that progressives generally are worried about being seen

as being sex negative. They're worried about being seen as like stigmatizing sex workers, which is again like a good concern to have. But that means that, you know, if you talk to people who I'm friends with and you start to say, you know, what do you think about porn? Within five seconds, they're going to start talking about the condition of porn performers and sex workers. Now, not saying that's not important, it is important, but that's a much smaller number of people compared to all the people being impacted by this industry, right? As in people who are accessing pornographic material. So yeah, that's where I'm at. I feel this really, really strongly. Oh, and just, I suppose

the last thing is like, I don't think any of us are true, like absolute liberals where we think that do what you want, as long as it's not hurting someone is fine. That we all have a sense of there being a moral line somewhere. And that moral line is actually drawn a bit before consent, right? That I think there are some things that we maybe have a felt sense that people shouldn't really do even if they're consenting. And I guess that's an area that I want to explore with you conversationally. I guess my first question is, well actually my initial first question is,

was your relationship with porn like? But I don't know if you'll let me ask that. But that's what I'd ask you if we were down the pub. So that's my actual first question. My alternate first question, if you refuse to answer that, is what do you think the Radfems got right about porn? What do you think they got wrong, if anything? Yeah, I mean, so I'll talk about like my relationship with porn. Like I don't actually watch it that often. And I think if I was like forced to put a number to it, like maybe once a month, like, and the reasons for that are this,

it's that, so I'm very awkward talking about sex as our listeners might be able to detect, I'm like, ah! But like, the reasons for this is that like, it feels like a shortcut, like erotically. It's like, you know, okay, feeling a bit turned on, like, oh, okay, like want to masturbate, okay, just like watch something,

it's there and it's in front of me. But it feels a bit like junk food, like I don't feel good afterwards. And I don't feel, like often I'll just like lose the sort of like urge or drive halfway through and I feel very dissociated from the thing that I'm seeing. And I'm just like, like, I think that it is like empty calories in a way.

And actually when I think about, you know, eroticism, like it's maybe something that takes a bit more time to build up like in my body and in my mind. And the shortcut that porn provides is like, it might get me there quicker, but it's a lot more fleeting and often just leaves me feeling not good, like not good. I also don't always like what it is I'm watching.

I don't like what it is I'm seeing. I don't like how like pneumatic it is. I also don't like that you can be watching something and then suddenly it becomes violent. And it's like kind of packaged as like something that's like relatively vanilla. And then suddenly that's like, oh, there's choking or like, oh, they're slapping.

And it's like, I don't, I don't want to watch that. That's not for me. And I don't want to watch that. And I don't like that. Kind of what counts as vanilla is now accommodating of more and more things that like, I think involve aggression or violence. Like I don't like that. So I think that's what my relationship to it is. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I've never watched it or that I don't watch it, but I'm trying to be honest about how it makes me feel. And I can't remember what your other question was

because I was so flummoxed by the idea of talking about sex. But we're not talking about sex. We're talking about porn. And I think that's something that gets, the problem, maybe one of the problems society we have is the confusion of the two, you know? Me being in my best like first year, just had the blunt, the confusion of the two.

My second question was, what did you think the Rad Femmes got right about porn specifically and what do you think they got wrong? Because they said a lot. And like I read something recently written by, it was a very quick column, it was written by Tanya Gold and it was very, very, very, it was about Lily Phillips and it was very anti-sex work, very anti-porn. It was all wrapped up in the same ethos. And I think something that you'll probably talk about is how the radfems wrapped up, you know, this idea of porn,

with also this idea of all sex work is inherently terrible and degrading, but they therefore were eradicated rather than thinking that we should give the people who are going to engage in sex work rights and a safe environment to work in. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think that's a really good question. I mean, I suppose the first thing is that like Robin Morgan, who's a radical feminist wrote pornography is the theory, rape is the practice. I actually think that it's maybe even more closely bound together than that. If you think about all of the kinds of coercion, whether it's financial coercion or

relationship coercion that goes into producing porn. But I do think that if we, if we agree that the messages that you get from mass media, mainstream media are really important for shaping how people interact with each other in real life, then we do have to think about what porn is saying, right? The messages it's sending about women and their sexual availability and their sexual behavior and their sexual natures and what that does in terms of shaping real life behaviors. Now there are a lot of studies about this,

and I know people say correlation is not causation, and these are, you know, very robust studies which sort of do draw a distinction between pornography with violent and degrading content versus pornography which doesn't. But there does seem to be a relationship between what kind of pornography men consume and their propensity towards committing acts of sexual aggression, sexual violence, or turning a blind eye towards

or minimizing sexual violence or sexual aggression. So I think that that's something that the radical feminists got right. I think what the radical feminists got wrong is that there's also a drive to see things purely through one lens. I mean, obviously, like, you might argue that this person I'm going to talk about is not representative of women at large for very obvious reasons. But when Cardi B talks about stripping, and I know stripping is not necessarily, like it's contested whether someone calls themselves

a sex worker if they're a stripper. But she says, well, I was in a violent relationship at that time. I was in a violent relationship and I couldn't afford to go to college. So what did you want me to do? Like I started stripping, I started making my own money and then I was able to leave this person.

So that is also in there, right? Which is women, and I'm talking about women specifically here because I don't feel like I know enough about the sex industry with regards to male sex workers. But women certainly, there's an aspect where it's like, I have no other option and this is my option to get money and money gives me more autonomy within my life. Like, I get that.

And I'm sensitive to that point, even if I think there's a broader picture. But I don't know, what do you think? I wanna know what you think. The thing with porn is it's such a knotty subject. My instinctive thing is I'm not a huge fan, right? I watched it more when I was younger. I probably watch it once every six months now,

like very, very rarely. I never watch heterosexual porn because I find it too painful. And I've thought about this loads and there's loads of studies which show that straight women often watch gay porn or lesbian porn. I prefer to watch gay porn if I ever watch porn. Sometimes we'll dabble in the, what's it called? It's not the Lavender Mystery, it's the other one, I can't remember the name. I can't remember any slang. I'll dabble in the sapphic, let's say that. If I watch heterosexual porn, then because it's the kind of sex that I'm used to engaging with, it's that dynamic I'm used to engaging with, it's just so, you can see that it would hurt.

It's that dynamic I'm used to engaging with. It's just so you can see that it would hurt. That's not sexy to me. That's just painful. I can imagine how that feels. It, it looks painful. Whereas if I watch, you know, two guys messing about, I don't know how the anal feels. I'm not a huge fan of it personally. So it's much easier for me to get my rocks off on that and still enjoy the

presence of a penis or two or three. Who knows? No, I'm not going to see them in my porn habits. It's actually crazy. I'm like, stay away threesomes, not here. Um, yeah, but I watch it really rarely because for the reasons you've articulated, it's a shortcut and I can just as easily, if I want a shortcut to masturbation, I already have

one. It's my vibrator. I'm using that anyway. So as you can tell, I don't have as much hang up. I'm like, someone isn't Muslim. loves to chat. Like I'm already using my vibrator, which if you just whack it up enough, it's going to get you there in about 30 seconds. I don't need that. Yeah, rattle the teeth in your head though. Literally. You know when you start too high too soon.

You're like, I can't believe I ever do this to myself. And then a couple minutes later, you're like, full blast. Full steam ahead. I know this is like, listen to you talk. I was like, yeah, no, like, listen to you talk. I was like, yeah, no, I know exactly what you mean. And there's a part of me like, I like really watching series that during the Napoleonic Wars and my head is like loading up

the cannons like fire. Yeah. But that also goes to show the key thing here is that we need warming up. And when we talk about like eroticism and warming up, it's not just you need warming up physically. It's like you need warming up. And when we talk about like eroticism and warming up, it's not just you need warming up physically, it's like you need warming up mentally. And sometimes porn acts as a shortcut for that. But I can't remember when I started really phasing it out as much.

It must have been, maybe it was, maybe it was like, just before I got into my last relationship. But I just realized the type of like things that were turning me on and the sex that was turning me on and the encounters that were turning me on were nothing like, I already knew this, but it was just like porn felt so distant, like you said, so disassociated. And you feel so grubby after watching it because it is grubby.

Like it's the point, it's meant to be grubby. It's meant to be primal. It's meant to be this very sort of in your face thing. That's just suddenly, you know, suddenly gets your rocks off. It's a shock. It's shocking. Porn is shocking. It's a shock to your system. And when you get shocks to your system, you respond in several ways. You can respond by being turned on. You can respond by being scared. You can respond by laughing. Like, I think porn has done all those things to me at different times. And it's interesting. It's like when people are exposed

to porn at too young an age, they are scared, it's terrifying, like imagine seeing that sort of like, it's quite violent, it's violent to see bodies behaving in that manner. And so my instinctual response when I think about porn is like, yeah, the world would be a better place if it didn't exist, like get rid. But I then also think obviously about the fact

that porn has always existed, like porn has always existed. Porn has definitely changed. I like to sometimes watch vintage films because there's so much love and care put in the films of the 70s. Shot on daguerreotype. Yeah, but they're like fucking two hours long. Someone entering on a petty farthing.

This whole story line is full of movies, these beautifully shot movies, lovingly crafted that they spent hours. I'm sure the conditions weren't great, but, and they definitely didn't wear condoms, which is why unfortunately a lot of porn performers succumbed during the AIDS pandemic, especially in America. But like they're so beautifully shot, they're so lovingly shot. And there's real care in the stories and what they're about. There's real eroticism. They talk to each other. Like it's not just someone came over and then suddenly they're being rammed

against the washing machine. It's like, there's a storyline where they're, I don't know. There's like real buildup. There's real, there's real buildup. There's real leads. And it's a real difference to now. And it's just like these quick clips. Everything is made for this quick contentification.

And that's what I think you're talking about when you discuss someone like Lily Phillips or Bonnie Blue, which is the contentification of pornography. Um, like maybe I'm quite, maybe I'm quite weirdly into some bits of porn because I also, there's this crazy novel that was released in the Victorian era that I won't say the name of, but I did get a copy of, um, you can get on Kindle. It's like 99p, but I was really interested because I was reading about it and it's this erotic novel and it's, you know, it's just

really bargain basement stuff, like just a random set of scenes where people are shagging. But it's like this erotic has always existed. It's just now because the way that we consume things has changed, I think pornography has changed, which seems like an obvious thing to say, but it's got much less about the buildup of the storyline and having, I guess, an erotic charge that goes all the way through and straight to like people need to see the act immediately. And it needs to be bigger and bolder and more shocking and we're more desensitized. So we need bigger things to get our rocks off. And that's why you have, you know, Lily Phillips, who's an extreme example. I want to say like Bonnie Blue and Lily Phillips have broken through to the mainstream because they're extreme examples.

Other adult performers have criticized, you know, the way that they're being talked about and criticized the way they're going about things. They said, look, it's up to especially Lily Phillips. I've read a quote from a porn star the other day. It was like, it's like, this is, you know, it's up to her, but I would really advise against this. It's not healthy. It's not good for the human body.

The human body is not meant to be put through things like that. And the documentary that Lily Phillips was made about Lily Phillips by Josh Peters, who's a long time YouTube creator. It shows, I don't know if you've seen it Ash. No. It's so sad.

It's so sad because it's about her doing the stunt. There's 100 men. And at the end of the documentary, Peter's go, he's really kind to as well. Like I have to say props to him. Like the way that he talks to you throughout the film is obviously it's shot from his perspective. So this could just be editing, but like, it's like he's the only one out of her team who just really is like challenging her on some of the stuff she says. And I don't mean like she's like, you know, challenging her on her sex work. It's that she says stuff like, Oh, you know, this is all I'm good for. And he's like,

do you really think that? You know, like, or she'll say stuff like, you know, men will sexualize me. He's like, no, men will sexualize you. And she seemed pretty shocked by that. But at the end, he goes in and she's after she's done this 100 men in one day and she just breaks down crying. And she's just like, she's just crying. She's saying like, I wouldn't recommend it. And like wiping away these tears. And he talks to her a bit more and she says, oh, you know, I'm just worried.

She's like, I'm worried I just didn't give them a good time. And you can tell it's not really about that. It's about the fact that her body has been put through. Cause she discusses as she's saying it. She's like, you know, I got down to this routine and it was like, you know, I get them in and it just felt very mechanical. And she even says at one point, she's like,

I dissociated after the third one. I only remember five people. Which is what happens. I mean, like, you know, maybe I should have put this trigger warning up at the top, but like. We'll put it at the start of the episode we record on. Yeah, like, but that's what happens when you're raped. Do you know what I mean? People have said that.

People have said that, but this thing, we have to say, it's not rape because it is a consensual act, but there is something going on here, which is about the way that a body is dehumanized. And yes, she has signed up to being dehumanized, and people have signed up to watch her body be dehumanized, but that doesn't mean it's not being dehumanized. That doesn't mean there isn't dehumanization at play.

But this is such a key point, which is that consent and signing up to something is, you know, that's- Yes, go off, Catherine Angel. That's what we use as the line between rape and not rape, degrading and not degrading. But that's not all there is to it. And I actually think that the writer that got me to think about this

and also really felt like, oh yeah, the like finger is on the button here, was Sally Rooney in Normal People. Because, spoiler alert, Mary Ann, who is one of the two protagonists, is constantly getting into these relationships with men who kind of want to sexually degrade her in some way, apart from the main relationship with Connell.

And she's like, but I want this. Like, oh, he's into kink. And then it's like, oh, I'm into kink. But her ability to maintain the fiction or the position like, yeah, I want this like breaks down. And it's like, actually, no, I don't want to be treated like this. And I don't want to be tied up. And I don't want to be hit. And I don't want to be used roughly. Like, actually, that's not, that's not a desire that's coming from me. That's a desire to mirror back what a man wants, but it's not one that's coming from me.

And that's something which I have felt where I think as I got a bit older and I was like, what do I really want? And I was like, I don't know. I don't know because I trained myself into thinking what I want is what this man wants. And when I'm thinking about what do I want on my own terms, like I was actually like at a real loss

and I think I'm still kind of like building up this idea of like, what do I want for me? Like it doesn't feel like an obvious thing at all. But also that, you know, and I'm sure that there'll be people listening who feel very differently about this. And I'm not sitting here going, I'm right and you're wrong. But I think that kind of like some of the discourse around kink shaming or how it gets mobilized, it's almost as a way of

shutting down thinking about some of this stuff. I don't think that what happens I don't think that what happens in the bedroom is a, you know, like, it's the same as everything you do in other parts in your life, but also don't feel it's wholly wholly different. And I'll give you like an example, which I think is often one where people are like, Oh, yeah, this makes sense. It's like race play. like the kink of like using terms of racial abuse in a consenting setting. I think lots of people would be like, like, you know, I don't know, don't really feel you should do that one. Like, and I think that if you, for instance, found out one of your white friends was like, yeah, I'm really into race play.

Really love using the N word or the P word, whatever in bed, in a consenting, in a consenting setting, of course, I think we'd start looking a bit askance at them. Again, not because I'm saying the exact same thing as doing that in other parts of your life, but maybe that's the case where we go, it's not wholly different either. And so thinking about like choking or slapping or other forms of very aggressive behavior. It's just like being like, oh, it's consensual.

It's sort of like, it's not, I don't think that is enough of a line. And I think just going back to the Lily Phillips thing is like, again, I don't want to speak for her, but while I didn't watch the documentary, that part where she was like, I'm just not there anymore, that was the part that I saw. As like, well, you know, just,

I don't think being able to be like, I consented to this is sometimes enough of a distinction between rape and not rape. Because if your body and your nervous system is reacting the way that it would, if you were being raped, clearly, that's not enough of a line. There's other things as well.

I think there's other things as well. Obviously there's cases where people have consented but they have been raped. And also consent is a legal term. It's about, it's trying to establish whether there was consent before, you know, in a case, like the point of the Catherine Angel book tomorrow, sex will be good again is that gray space. Lily Phillips, see, we're coming back to talk to Lily Phillips again

and again and again, which I think is interesting in itself. But she, like, we can't call what happened to her rape. It wasn't rape. And I don't think we should call it rape because I think that, again, eradicates this gray area that is the bit that people find so hard to talk about when it comes to sex. And what we've ended up talking about is sex rather than porn when we should have been, we're meant to be talking about porn. And again, that's interesting too, right? But yeah, I don't think the difference was rape. And I also think the part of the documentary that interested me too is we seem to focus in this discussion on the effects of pornography on men. And I understand why,

but what about the impact on women who watch it? Like there's women who become porn addicted and also the impact, like you're talking about the violent tendencies in men, et cetera, but it also just ships away at the soul of young men. Like one of the things in the documentary that you won't have seen

if you didn't watch the whole thing is how shaken the men are by their encounter, how much it upsets them, the ones who come to have sex with her. And it's like, what would drive a young man in the first place to pay in one case, 800 quid to fly from fucking Switzerland, I think it is, to have sex with this woman for five minutes, because that's all theyington. What would drive the young man to do that? What are the forces that have made a young man think that that's a choice that he wants to make? And afterwards, one of these young men, his hands actually shaking, you see on the camera, like, he's trying to drink a bottle of LucasAid or something, his hand is just shaking. And he says, I didn't know it would feel

like that. And it's so heartbreaking because it's like both these two participants in this act have been, have clearly just experienced something horrible and traumatic. And it's only been five minutes. Like that is, they have, they have stared into this abyss of just like I guess degradation and it doesn't have to be like this like I'm again I'm not even saying that all porn is like this other people form is really haven't said this is an extreme thing like what happened there was just when a body becomes merely flesh like you're reduced to just a hole to come in. And the person doing the coming is reduced to literally just a cum machine. And that, again, it's the dehumanization. And that is an extreme.

And there is, you know, I'm sure OnlyFansCreates is out there as well, who make porn scenes which is, you know, it's enjoyable, full of love. Fine. I personally am not a huge fan of porn, whatever. But this is an extreme. And I think that's why people have been so horrified by it, because it is this extreme version. But I think it does come back to what I was trying to talk about as well, which is this contentification of porn, these clips. You even saw a clip of the documentary that's going around. Like everything we do is clipped up into these tiny, tiny bursts of things to see. So you're only going to see the juiciest, the most salacious bits, the most extreme

bits. And the more that we're used to seeing extremities, the more that people flick past and you need to do crazier things to stand out. Everyone has said this. There's, there's, I think the, the, um, what's the proliferation of porn means that that's happened as well. Like if you go on porn sites, then you like the craziest shit gets served up to you as the first stuff, and then you have to go in and find the vanilla things. I think it's interesting what you're saying about

during sex, you know, this idea of getting choked, getting slapped, and asking for it. Like my friends are in a column about this, but we talk about the time, you know, yay, vanilla sex is back again. Because it's like, there was a while where, oh, everyone was meant to be getting choked, and everyone was meant to be getting slapped,

and all this, and I personally- It's like everyone's supposed to like spit in everyone's mouth. Yeah. No, thank you. I don't like doing that, but even I felt insecure, like I should be doing that. And it's the insecurity as well that I think feeds.

Unless you have the confidence with your partners to say, do you actually want this? Do you actually like this? Does this mean something to you? Like I'm very confident now that, you know, the best sex is the sex where I'm literally just staring into the partner's eyes and then getting rolled over.

And it's just like loving. My favorite sex in the whole world is when you're in, when you're sorry to be that person, when you're in love, when you're in love, and you're just really connected. And it's just really like, there's so many different types of sex you can have when you're in love and it's the emotional bond that makes it so special

and so good. And I've had great sex when I'm not in love and it hasn't been degrading. It's been sex that's just like, we're both mutually getting our rocks off. And I'm thinking on a couple of examples now, there was no slapping and there was no spitting. For someone else, it looks very different.

There will be slapping and there will be spitting, but I do think it's less than perhaps would have been encouraged to do it because I think that those desires, I don't want to use the word normal because I hate that fucking word, but I think those desires are more in a minority about who really wants them. That's why they're called kings. And that's fine. There's a whole point of them being kings, but it's like who really wants them versus there's a whole point of them being kings, but it's like who really wants them versus who has been encouraged to participate in them because of the way we now treat sex

and things we do in sex as trends as opposed to like a practice. I mean, there's so much to like respond to on what you've said. So I'm gonna like just kind of run at it in no particular order because it's all really interesting. I mean, the first thing in terms of like the impact on men is like obviously through through by virtue of like being a woman talking to another woman is that it's about like oh how do we as women experience this thing whereas actually like in terms of the harms being done by porn I do think

that it's incredibly harmful to men this the availability of porn not having to work hard for it anymore, like the fact it's just like there all the time and it's of a particular kind. Like I think it has a deadening impact and like, you know, there's the whole like gooning thing where like the idea is that like, you should set up like multiple screens at once

and you should like serve yourself the most like intense shit to try and deliberately inculcate that feeling of like dead end numbness frozenness now if you read something like the body keeps the score or come as you are you would know that actually that deadness that's that like I have been overly stimulated now I feel nothing is a trauma response you would understand that as a trauma response so you've just like flooded your brain with like what a traumatizing imagery, which like again,

because you don't have that kind of language for men in terms of men experiencing sexual trauma, like heterosexual men through viewing heterosexual acts or participating in heterosexual acts. There's not an idea of that can be, you know, how that can be violating or traumatizing for heterosexual men. You know, I just think that that lack of language actually makes heterosexual men

in some ways even more vulnerable to the corrosive impacts of porn than heterosexual women. I think there's another thing which is that like porn is everywhere. So like I compared my Instagram like for you page to that of my male friends and it was hilarious. So mine is like animal videos. So like dogs and cats who are best friends or doing something silly, woodworking, because I've really loved watching woodworking videos and cooking. So lots and lots and lots of recipes.

I looked at a few pages of like some of my male friends and it was like breast, breast, breast. So often like AI women as well, and it was just like this was just getting served to to them Was this on the gay guys ones as well? I have not I've not had a look at the I don't want to leave the gay guys out because porn is also a big thing in the gay world I know it is and I am just less familiar and I'm like less familiar with the tropes and like I don't know So it is, and I am just less familiar, and I'm less familiar with the tropes, and I don't know,

I would actually really like to hear from some of our listeners about it, because this is something which I can't speak on, and I don't know very much about, and I wonder, is it different being a gay man watching porn, and the fact that you are, I don't know, you are yourself a man, does that make a difference? Like do you experience yourself as vulnerable

in the same way? Like I don't know. I would be interested in hearing it too. I would say that I think in general as well, the sexualization of men and other men is even, is on a par, maybe even more extreme, like the physical sexualization and the way that men is even is on a par, maybe even more extreme, like the physical sexualization and the way that men

look at each other as just bodies to fuck in the gay community. At least my friends have complained about it to me, it's very extreme. But yeah, we should get someone on to talk about that. Anyway, go on. Yeah, I'd really, really like to, but yeah, basically that like, porn is everywhere.

So like, even if you don't, even if you don't go on Pornhub or even if you don't like go on OnlyFans, like it's being served to you, like constantly. Like the aesthetics of porn, like are in mainstream pop culture. Like, um, like porn stars become like, like particularly if like you're into rap, like there is a sort of like porousness there. I mean, like, you know, as I'm too, too, who I just like cannot stand, but like,

you know, like host the No Jumper podcast, which is like basketball and rap and now like porn, you know, this idea that exists in a separate world, which is more difficult, you know, which is difficult to access is like bullshit. Like it's just, it's everywhere. And yeah, I do resent the sort of, the dominance of like a kind of, a particular kind of liberalism on the left, which is like, you know, not wanting to come across as judgmental because it's not, it's not judgmental

and it's not about morally condemning. It's about being able to say, I think this thing is bad for society. I think this other thing is good for society. Like, because when you, when you give up your capacity to discern, you are just leaving people abandoned to loneliness and alienation and desensitization. Do you know what I mean? And like, and I feel that so strongly about porn because I also have seen people close to me be really negatively impacted by it, really, really negatively impacted by it. And because we can't have this conversation openly in the political

circles that I move in, at least, they're made to feel like it's a personal failure rather than this is an industry which is setting out to do this to you. I think that's probably a good note to leave it on, but I was thinking a bit more about gay men in particular in porn. And I was just thinking about Grindr as well

and the meat market and I would say that yeah because of the physical object because also when I used to be in my you know more in my porn bag I watched gay porn so I recognized the name the porn stars that my friends would talk about so I got an essay when my friends were like how do you know all this? And I was like, sweetie, sadly, I'm on the same sites. But yeah, so it's like, there's an even more extreme, and you'll hear this when you talk to people, there's a real resentment about muscle gays and particularly bodies, and if you go to queer parties,

it's actually very interesting going to queer parties as a hag because you get to observe all the different sort of like mating rituals and because you are literally invisible as a woman, no one gives a fuck about just like whatever they're doing in front of you. And it's fascinating to see this because a lot of these spaces like they're really sex positive. The point is that they've made this space in order so that people can hook up and go to a dark room and they're very sexualised. And people who feel excluded from the sexual

activities there will often blame it on the aesthetic expectations of the people there, like, oh, I'm not muscled enough, I'm this and that. And some of my friends are like, actually, do you know what, this kind of bollocks, like as a fat guy, I do really well in these gay spaces, all of that. But there is also like, on the internet at least, where the aesthetics rule, there is obviously that, that holds firm in lots of initial spaces.

So it's interesting to see how, I don't know, how porn would play into that and the bodies that you see in porn. And it's funny to see as, I don't know how porn would play into that and the bodies that you see in porn. And it's funny to see as well in the mainstream, how the bodies that we see in porn have slowly morphed into the mainstream ideal. Like the absolute, the ripped abs, all of that is now the Captain America body is now the mainstream ideal body.

And, um, and how far that's gone. And that used to be just kind of like over there in porn and these huge wangs and all of that. Yeah, I think there's huge wangs. What's American? I think of wangs as really American. You can't have a British wang. You have to be American to have a wang. I'm gonna say wang with a twang.

Wang with a twang. Have you got a twang on your wang? Not a fan of huge wangs personally. I just wanna put that out there. Not all of us are size queens, solid and medium of huge wangs personally. I just want to put that out there. Not all of us are size queens, solid and medium. Just gonna say that. Just want people to know.

Well, I mean, that was also considered to be, I guess like barbarous or animalistic in the Hellenic tradition. You want a nice modest little. Do you know when I found that out? I found that out after I went to Pompeii and I asked on Instagram, why does Pompeii have so many tiny little dicks everywhere? And my classics friend informed me, as you said, that it was considered vulgar,

and they're also there for luck. So there's lots of preparic imagery of tiny little wieners all over Pompeii, which you should visit if you go to Rome. of tiny little wieners all over Pompeii, which you should visit if you go to Rome. What a great place to end up, is the tiny little wieners. Shall we move on? Yes, let's go to other people's problems.

This is I'm in Big Trouble, which is our advice segment. If you would like some New Year's advice, send it to if I speak at navaramedia.com. That's if I speak at navaramedia.com. Ash, would you like to read? I would like to read. Hey, Ash Moyer, my favorite parasocial political girly pops is, that's women pops to you, grown up pops. I have an issue going deeper with friendships.

I've lived in London most of my adult life and have made friends through university, work, friends of friends and family. The issue isn't the number of friendships, it's how deep they go. I'm 27, AMAB, which is assigned male at birth, non-binary and have long hair, inspired by Caroline Polacek.

Recently diagnosed with ADHD and currently going through titration. Am I saying that right? Yes. Titration, trying out different meds. This has given me more space to think about who I am and why. I live with two friends from uni who are super clues,

super clues, super close and have a synergy between them. So they are so close. Like they are Scandinavian also, which is why they're so close. And have a synergy between them that I can barely scratch the surface. Love them both and I have good relationships with each of them. God, I cannot read today.

But there is that thought in the back of the head, I'll never have what they have. ADHD issues mean I struggle with forgetting things, if people have met, birthdays, base names, replying to texts, groups, and whether parents have died. When I'm reminded the memories flashback and I can pick up the conversation but it's definitely a barrier. As a kid three of my close friends all moved away which has left an impression on me that people leave. I've worked through this in therapy and through conversations with

friends who've been very kind and understanding when I bring it up but still there's a part of me that lacks the enthusiasm to try. Most of my friends are women, AFAB non-binary folks or bi guys. I'd like to have a few more gay male friends because I love a lot of gay things, think Charlie XCX, Hito Staiere and Doctor Who. I also find making friends with gay men tricky because I can't always tell if they're flirting with me or not. So I guess my questions are, how do I open myself up to closer communication? What does it feel like to have a friend you

text every day and connect with on a spiritual level? Is it even worth trying to make friends with gay men? They are still men. Am I fixable? Thank you for reading my woes Ash Fete Moyer, you are both really intelligent and if I speak brings me so much joy. Also Moyer, I saw you in the queue to get into Glastonbury and I wanted to say OMG you are so slay but I was in a bad mood from being in a queue at Glastonbury. Eternal gratitude to you both and hues are the future. That gay A, I've talked about it before, that gay A queue, only those of us who survived it only those of us who survived it understand it. Five hours, they were passing out cans of water. A pregnant woman, I've told this story before,

but I've got to fucking tell it again. A pregnant woman went up to be asked and asked to like get in because she was basically, I'm gonna fall over. And they're like, we're not even letting the people with diabetes through. Meanwhile, all the other gates, 15 minutes. There was a mess up at gate A.

There was a mess up at gate A. There was a mess up at gate A. I honestly thought I was going to die. We had rope, like bag burns in our bag burn marks. I lost several things in that. Oh my God, it was horrible. I'm never doing that again. I'm never doing that again. Okay, anyway, moving on.

Back to the problem at hand. Lots of questions here. How do I open myself up to closer communication? What does it feel like to have a friend you text every day and connect with on a spiritual level? Is it even worth trying to make friends with gay men they are still men and am I fixable? Who wants to begin?

I think you should begin. Ooh, no, because I'm gonna go in with the harsh reality. No, but you're an ADHD girlie. It's gotta come from you. Everyone's a fucking ADHD girlie, no, because I'm going to go in with the harsh reality. No, but you're an ADHD girlie. It's got to come from you. Everyone's a fucking ADHD girlie, Ash, because ADHD is a collection of traits. They're a collection of traits, and if you meet a diagnostic criteria for those traits, you get a diagnosis. However, due to our current surroundings and the attention economy, a lot more people are meeting the diagnostic criteria. I firmly believe, 20 years ago, I would not have qualified as an ADHD girlie. I think that my traits have been exacerbated by the modern environment that I live in and also my phone addiction. And that's what I'm going to be honest about. Like,

other ADHD people disagree, other ADHD people agree. But I think I'm one of the ADHD people who's kind of like, if I make it per personality traits, something has gone very, very wrong in me. So that's why I start. Okay, how do I put myself up to close communication? You sound so sweet from your email. You sound sweet and fun and that you have lots of interests. I fear you might be turning a lot of stuff in your life

into binary categories. I fear that you are slotting a lot of things into this is this and this is this and this is this. You know like Charlie XCX and Doctor Who are gay things. Are they? Are they? You might want to make friends with gay men but it it doesn't, you don't have to do it just because you like these things. You should want to do it because you actually want more friends from those backgrounds, not because you think that you have to because you like these things. It's like, you know, should I make friends with gay men because they are still men? But I'm sure that was a joke, but like, do you actually want to make friends with these people?

I feel there's a lot of confusion about what you actually want to make friends with these people? I feel there's a lot of confusion about what you actually want here. Like, if you want closer friends, what I would do in general is try and have them organically. Like, don't zoom in on a particular group or a particular, like a particular demographic and think I have to go make friends with them, I have to go make friends with them. I have to go make friends with them.

I would try going to the spaces where your interests are. If there is a Doctor Who meetup, why don't you go to one of those things based on the shared interests and see who you bond with at those events, rather than trying to force it with, just like, I have to go to the gay group, I have to go to the bi group, I have to go to this group. Like these things are all porous. These things are flexible. And I fear your thinking is very like rigid in,

I'm broken. I can't communicate. I don't have this friendlier. You're how old did you say you were? 27. 27. Okay, that's quite old, actually. Maybe you need to know. were? 27. 27. Okay, that's quite old actually. Maybe you need to... No, I think there's just rigidity. I think there's a rigid... how do you say it? Rigidity. Rigidity here. And I would say with the ADHD issues you're writing about, you know, like, you say you struggle with forgetting things, people... What I'm getting from this is I think that there's a... How do I put this? It's very hard for me to express. Maybe it's my ADHD. No, it's because I'm finding things hard to express today. I think you're coming up with a lot of excuses for why you can't do things instead of trying to do the things. And I think there's maybe a fear or anxiety

that underpins this letter about interacting with other people and becoming close to other people that maybe might mask something of like, if they get too close to me, they might find out I'm broken. They're never gonna get too close to me. They're never gonna actually like me for me, et cetera, I could be totally projecting, totally speculating, but you say, I'm never gonna,

as a thought, I'll never have what they have with these two friends from university super close. They have a synergy. You know, you say you struggle with forgetting things, people you've met, birthdays, bay names, all of these kinds of things. The whole thing about the people leaving. But why don't you put in some things in place

to counteract some of this? You know, like you've struggled forgetting things, you struggle remembering people, if you met people, that's fine. I forget the old time. Birthdays, put them in your fucking calendar. You're 27. Replying to texts. I have to force myself to reply to texts. These are adult things that you have to, I'm sorry I'm being harsh on you, special one, because you sounded lovely and you said nice things about us, but like these are adult things you have to try and make yourself do.

When I got my diagnosis, not to boast, but when I got my diagnosis, the doctor was like, you've come up with management techniques organically and those management techniques, you know, some people talk about this and they're like, you know, the way I have to mask it's so tiring, it's all of that. I also have to be an adult who functions in the world. Yes, the world is hard and capitalist and makes us fit into boxes that we don't like. but also I want to get out and live my life. And I want to do it in a way that allows me to like actually move around this world without feeling bad about myself all the time. And some of these things are quite simple. Like, you know, you can forgive yourself if you forget

stuff. You can forgive yourself if you, you know, forget to apply to texts. You make a time in the evening when you apply to those texts. All of these things are forgivable. People are not gonna hate you for it. And I think there's something holding you back here where you say, this is a barrier. I think the barrier is more about how you feel about yourself here

and how you think other people are gonna perceive you. That was quite confused, but I'm trying to get at something. I think a lot of that rings true, or it makes sense as a sort of explanation for someone's pattern of behavior. I think there's a few things that I would add to it. First thing, special one, is that you seem to put a lot of stock into labels. So, you know, your diagnosis, gender identity, but other people's gender identity and then other people's tastes and your own tastes

and trying to make it fit like this is a gay thing. So does that mean I should be drawn to these kinds of people? Obviously labels can help us understand who we are better, but they're not always the same as knowing yourself. So finding a label and attaching it to yourself, that doesn't necessarily mean that you've got greater insight into what you want, what you need and who you are. Sometimes it can be a substitute for that kind of

knowledge because it's a ready-made answer and then you're just sort of plastering it on yourself. And I think that that is something which may be contributing to you feeling a lack of deep connection with people. Because actually, connecting with people means seeing them as more than a sum of their labels and seeing past the sort of like identity categories or whatever else it might be, the things that they like or dislike, the subculture that they participate in.

That's what generates real connection. I think the second thing is that you seem to say that actually the people around you are very understanding of your ADHD and aren't giving you a hard time about forgetting things and that's something that's coming from you. So I don't think it's about a lack of connection in your life but I think as Moya said, maybe feeling scared, feeling scared of failing those connections in some way, or feeling scared that someone's gonna leave and then like kind of building up this big barrier

as for why that's inevitable. I mean, like, yeah, people do leave, like my dad did, but not everyone will. And part of friendships is the sort of flex that like sometimes you're really close to someone, sometimes you're not, and that's just, that's just part of life. And I think that you've got to be less scared of it and take people's journey through their own lives and also the places that will take them as less of a reflection on you and who, who you might be. Replying to texts, I'm often really, really bad

at replying to texts. I voice note people to keep in close contact with them. In particular, my best mate who doesn't live in the same country as me. And it's been a way of like really holding on to emotional intimacy. Although I do wonder if you romanticize other people's friendships a bit.

Like I wonder if you have a narrative about being like on the margins of your own life. And so then you sort of romanticize the closeness that other people have, or while being a little bit unaware of the ways in which you're pulling away and which you're putting a barrier up. And the thing about is it even worth trying to make friends with gay men?

They are still men. Okay, I'm going to do the some of my best friends are. Some of my best friends are men. If I were to look at those friendships as just like, oh, you're being such a man. And sometimes they are just being like fucking men and being really annoying about something. But ultimately I love them because they're my friend.

And like, if I were to constantly look at them through the prism of gender and sexuality, we wouldn't be friends. Like, it would be impossible to get close to them. I just think that looking for connection through identity criteria is not going to get you there because actually real close friendships are not made through identity, they're not made through interests, they're made through shared experiences. So put yourself in situations where you're having shared experiences with people and that's going to bring you closer. Many of my friends are profoundly different from me in

terms of race, in terms of gender, in terms of religious background, like really, really different from me. But it's because we had shared experiences together that meant that we got really close and that we've stayed really close. I would actually disagree on one point, which is I do think that friendships

are made from similar interests, sorry. No. I would totally disagree. I think friendships are made from similar interests. Sorry. I would, I would totally disagree. I think friendships are made from similar interests. I have some friends who have completely different interests, but my best friends fucking love some of the same things. There's some similar interests, which we bonded over. And also one thing that we haven't mentioned, which we should class, I'm

sorry to say class plays a massive, like it can play a massive role in friendships. I've got friends who come from different class backgrounds, but I would say that there are people of similar class backgrounds flocked together. This is not useful for the special one, but I do just want to make it clear that Find your tax bracket. I do think people with similar class backgrounds often have, like, because they sit talk in similar cultural registers, they find each other. I think I think the class thing is really, really true. But thinking about one of my closest

friendships, we became friends at sixth form, and he was the year above me. And now we live like one road away from each other. And we're just super tight, we go for like multiple, like midweek lunches when we're both working from home, like really, really hang out hang out super tight. We go for multiple midweek lunches when we're both working from home, really, really hang out a lot. We don't have many shared interests. We don't really like the same kind of music. He loves air traffic control simulators. I'm obviously not so into that. I've gotten him into Spurs. He got me a bit into Formula One, but that became a thing that we could do together. Do you know what I mean? It's like I went to go watch Formula One with him, not because I found tyre degradation inherently interesting, but because it was a fun thing to do, because

he'd become really animated and start like yelling about like Max Verstappen and that was fun. But you said that's home friend. Well, I mean, when I hang out with him, the dynamics are not that different from when we were teenagers. Like actually we can- Yeah, but you were teenagers. This person wants new friends.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I guess the thing I'm saying is that like, I have also made new friends who've got really different interests from me. And we find an activity, like which we'll do together, which cultivate shared experiences, but we're not necessarily interested in the same thing.

How did you make these new friends who have very different? Okay, so... If it's the politics, sorry, that's a shared interest. No, friend to friend. So thinking about a friend that I'm now very, very close to, we see each other probably like when we're in a good streak once a week, because we'll like meet up to do yoga and then go for breakfast. He was friends with one of my partner's friends.

And so we met at the pub when they'd all gone to see the football one day and then I came to join them. We don't have super aligned interests. And we're really, really different in disposition and background and stuff like that. Do you have the same values? No. Why friends?

Because I really, really, really like him and- Just like yoga. No, no, I really like that he's a candid person and it's very disarming. It's like a really refreshing disarming quality that like when you meet him, he's just like, oh, here I am and this is what I'm like. And like, you might not like some of these things,

but this is just what I'm about. And I really, really like that. I think we've got some like really, we've got totally different ideas about relationships and like what makes a good one or what makes a bad one. And like, our values are really, really different in that way. But like, I really enjoy his company

because of his lack of guardedness. I really, really like that quality in him. What a great note to wrap this up on. I love my friends. I wish I could go through a list of all my friends one episode and tell you everything I like about them because I just love them so much. I think we should still do the bring a friend to work day episode. Bring a friend to work day. Well, we offer up one friend. And I've got a friend in mind who I want to bring on the podcast. That is not who you think.

I think that would be an enjoyable one. We could do a quiz. We could do a friend quiz. Actually, no, my friend would fail the quiz. My friend would definitely fail the friendship quiz, but she is the one I want to bring on is the funniest person I've ever met in my life. Right. Who have you been?

I've been in love with my friends. Who have you been? Okay, well I've been the hermit card in tarot. Moiré de MacLaine. I thought you were just gonna say the hermit crab. The hermit crab, no just the hermit. This has been If I Speak. We will see you again next week. Bye!