If I Speak - 47: Is the era of public shaming over? w/ Yomi Adegoke at London Podcast Festival

Episode Date: January 14, 2025

Recorded live at London Podcast Festival last September, Ash and Moya are joined by Yomi Adegoke – author of The List and Slay In Your Lane – to talk about public shaming. Is the era of the online... pile-on over? Plus, our audience of special ones help to solve some listener dilemmas. Email your dilemmas […]

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Oh my god there are so fucking many of you. I'm thinking, oh my god, I should have worn a skirt that covers me more. Oops. No, I actually think you should have worn something which covers a little less. Shall I do a Sharon Stone later? Yes, absolutely. For our very special ones only. Hello, and welcome to an incredibly special episode of If I Speak here at the London Podcast
Starting point is 00:00:43 Festival. I am joined as always by Moira, Moira McLean. Yeah, we normally never do this in person. It's normally in my kind of dank study, which smells of cat. So now you're getting the front row seats to the yap first. I'm Moira Leather McLean, co-host of If I Speak. Thank you so much for joining us. We have someone else with us today, don't we?
Starting point is 00:01:06 We have a really special guest for this special episode, and it is the one and only Yomi Adegoke, journalist, author of Slay in Your Lane, Sunday Times bestseller, The List. Her incisive analysis of pop culture can be found in The Guardian and Elle. Her next project is a TV adaptation of the list. Hi.
Starting point is 00:01:27 Hi. What possessed you to say yes to this? I'm still trying to work out exactly what it was I'm doing. I think you guys are great. My mum is here somewhere with my sister, who are like the biggest Navarro media stands going. Strangely, like strangely more because my mum's politics, like she's kind of center.
Starting point is 00:01:50 I don't know if I'm allowed to say that. You blow up your mum. She's gonna be like, she's gonna be like, turn to the left, turn to the left. My mum's actually kind of a lib. We will be going around making everyone detail their parents' political orientation
Starting point is 00:02:01 at some point during this recording. But a lib, but a Michael Walker Stan account, so yeah. I think she's hoping she might catch a glimpse of him. We have a traditional icebreaker and it's called 73 Questions Minus 70. The reason why 73 Questions Minus 70 is that I thought that that would be a really funny play on Vogue's 73 Questions, but it turns out no one really... No one gives a shit about Vogue 73 questions. No one gives a shit.
Starting point is 00:02:26 So no one knows what we're roughing off. However, because we've got Yomi with us, we thought we'd ask you three questions. But, so we're not just whining at you for a whole hour, I wanted to find out first if anyone in the audience has a quickfire question they want to ask Yomi. Can you think of one in the next two minutes? If not, I have to do my own.
Starting point is 00:02:44 No one in this audience, Oh, here we go. Yes. All right. Go on. Get out of there with the mic, Moira. This has to be a quick fire question. Otherwise, I will take the mic away from you. Jeez. Right, right, right. Keep your hand up. Keep your hand up. Who had the hand up? Here we go. Can we pass the mic? What's your quick fire question? What song do you listen to to get you pumped up? Oh. Great, great, great question.
Starting point is 00:03:05 Right now, 365 by Charli XCX. Over 360 always. Bumping that forever. I do think it's an interesting distinction, the people who are the 365s versus the 360s. 365 to primitive. Wait, who is a 360 girl? Oh, Guile.
Starting point is 00:03:20 Who's a 365? Oh, okay! Yeah, I think it says a lot. Barack Obama chose 365, so I'm not really sure what that says about me. And everyone else. Barack Obama says that it's like 365. He's never listened to that song.
Starting point is 00:03:33 Has anyone else got a quick fire question for Yomi? Come on, we've had one. Here's another, great. In the meantime, I've got a confession, which is I've still never listened to Brat. Oh! Huge. Look, look, look, look, look.
Starting point is 00:03:44 For me, it was Kendrick Lamar summer. We heard it. All right, good one. I'm on a different part of the pop cultural pathway. No, not both. So for me, it was calling Drake a pedophile. Like that was all summer. Okay, next to get to my question.
Starting point is 00:04:00 I'm actually really worried this has been asked before, but I think it's a really funny question. How many owls would you have to see on your commute to work before thinking something is seriously up? You think we've asked that question before? How many owls? I can remember what's from this podcast or not. That's a good question. How many owls? Well I live in Croydon where there is, okay, not that being like its own punchline in itself, but yeah.
Starting point is 00:04:30 I live in Croydon. And I used to see, I mean, the debate about whether it's in London or it's in Surrey or Greater London is like one that still rages on. And I used to see deers and cows on the way to school, so I could probably see like seven owls not being- They're nocturnal. That says a lot about what I consider a commute. I freelance, so I don't know. Seven owls. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:04:57 Is that a right answer to this question? No, two owls. One owl is like, wow, I've just seen an owl. Two is like, what the fuck? I don't know, I'm also not massively perceptive. If you haven't noticed. I'm not really with it. I think it'd take a couple of hours.
Starting point is 00:05:09 I just, if I'm honest, I wouldn't see any owls because I would be on my phone watching TikToks. Something else telling me being like, this is why this man is ghosty. That's what I'd be saying. Anymore, one last quick fire question. Yes. Hello.
Starting point is 00:05:24 We saw you earlier with my mouth full of apple earlier. Here's the mic. Hi. Not very exciting like the last one. What's your favourite sandwich? Oh, pickle and, um, pickle and, like I haven't eaten a sandwich I don't think since I was like 17. So I'm like, hang on. What? I know, I'm really not a sandwich girl. So I'm like, what's that one that I had in like sixth form? I think like pickle, cheese and ham potentially. It's like one of three sandwiches I've probably ever eaten. So that was the top one.
Starting point is 00:05:55 What's your go-to luncheon instead of sandwiches? Um, what's my go-to lunch? Black coffee and a cigarette. Oh, that's Kari Bradshaw. I like that that would even be like the assumption. Yeah, it. Yes the shoes but no. What is my go-to? I'm like I do a lot of delivery. Whatever's like the seven off of seven like September deal is usually like my life. Wow. Yeah this is a different life to the one I live. It's certainly not a superior one I promise you that. I'd like to be doing it. I saw a really good, every time I want to order one I live. Okay. It's certainly not a superior one, I promise you that.
Starting point is 00:06:25 I'd like to be doing it. I still really... Every time I want to order a delivery, I saw this meme the other day, which says, is, you know, like, things expensive or did you just order a private taxi for your burrito again? And every time I want, like, I'm like, I'll get a burrito, and I'm like, no, I can't order a private taxi for my burrito again. Did I ever tell you about the sandwich that I had that I think about every day? No, but it seems like you're about to. Yes. It seems like a lead-in. Okay, picture the scene.
Starting point is 00:06:51 It's Sicily, the beginning of September, so it's not baking hot but still kind of gorgeous. The sun is setting, it's golden hour. I've been on the beach with my best friend all day and we've just been like sunbathing, swimming and in my pocket I've got our two bus tickets to go back to the centre of town and a very damp five euro and there is a kiosk across the road outside of Butchers where they've got porchetta and for that five euros I've got two porchetta sandwiches and two birramerettis. Two? Yes. It's not bad at all. Maybe I should get into this sandwich lifestyle. Only in Italy. Only in Italy.
Starting point is 00:07:29 And then we were just like sat like at the bus stop waiting for the bus, eating these sandwiches, like licking the salt off our lips from like the sea and like having this cool beer on like a hot September day. Oh my God, that does sound good. And I think about it every single day. Jesus, I would if I... I don't think like a man has ever
Starting point is 00:07:45 described me as beautifully as you described that sandwich and as intimately and as romantic, like it was like a romanticy novel. It was stunning. Sometimes I text my friend I'm like you still think about that sandwich? That sandwich is more about the moment that you're having because it was like the good deal for the two sandwiches and then it was like this... It was also delicious there was like fennel inside the pochettino. She's like, you didn't try this sandwich, but you tried the sandwich. It's delicious.
Starting point is 00:08:09 It was all about the moment. And it was like homemade focaccia. Yeah. And like, you know, all the... But it's the joy of like, you know, when you go somewhere, you go to a place and you have an experience that's just like doubling down on how like magical the day already is, and you're like,
Starting point is 00:08:21 I've done this authentic sandwich for two euro 50 each or whatever, and it's like, oh, I'm having this cool beer and I'm with my best friend. How much was this one euro 50? See, that's the point of the story is you're having this authentic experience. Anyway. That was an intense moment about sandwiches.
Starting point is 00:08:35 I clearly don't like sandwiches as much as everyone else in this room. So I've got a mystery question. So normally how mystery questions work is that our producer Chow, who is I think somewhere in the audience, we call her our shadow director, the power behind the throne, will text one of us and then there'll be a ding and it will be something which has emerged from the dankest corners of her mind.
Starting point is 00:08:55 This time it's a bit different. It's from the dankest corners of Moir's mind, which makes me worry. It's as mouldy as JK Rowling's walls. LAUGHTER She's joking if there are any litigious gilded gilded listening. And also I don't have my phone with me so I'm going to make a dinging noise. Okay. And then you will say the mystery question. Say the mystery question. Okay. One, two, three.
Starting point is 00:09:21 Ding. It's not nearly sparky enough for my liking. Okay, what about, what about, ding. It should be like that. Bong. No, no, it's got to be like a trill, like, ding. Like that.
Starting point is 00:09:31 Not bad. It's got to be the glass, too. I think I sound afraid. All right, ding. Anyway, the question I have for you two, and also I'll have to talk to you because I'm contractually obliged to, but the question I want to pose to you two,
Starting point is 00:09:43 does any good come out of public shaming? And the reason I want to ask this is obviously... That just helps a ooooh, yeah, nice, I like this audience. Because obviously Yomi, you've written a best-selling novel, which is getting turned into a TV show, called The List. And for those of, whoo! called The List. And for those of you who haven't read The List yet, I want reminding, at the centre is a very public form of exposing alleged wrongdoing. So it's an anonymously penned list of men
Starting point is 00:10:16 who have various degrees of sexual misconduct levelled against them, and this list is then circulated online. And I want to talk about, you know, does public shaming ever result in good? Because I think I used to be very invested in the idea that public shaming could result in some form of justice. I've definitely done it. I've been on the end of it. It sucks.
Starting point is 00:10:37 But I think the culture's greatly changed. And I saw a TikTok the other day, when I was not looking at hours on my commute about how the smallest interactions between people are now offered up as these morality plays for everyone to kind of look upon and make a judgment and for us to witness. So I want to, yeah, where do we want to start with this? I've got a list of little questions I could tick off. So is there a difference perhaps we could start with between online shaming and public shaming? I had to like take my jacket off for this and really get into it. I'm like, this is a hard pivot from sandwich talk. I'm like, right, let me get into this. So like yourself
Starting point is 00:11:12 Moya, I definitely have been on the receiving end of, you know, so-called account, like accountability culture is a real thing, I'd say. But I have been on the receiving end of like what might be considered that and might also be considered public shaming. And as you said, that does suck. I have also very much done it to myself, which I would say sucks less, which isn't great to say, but part of the reason that it's such a popular form
Starting point is 00:11:38 of like, accountability is because it makes you feel better about yourself and your own wrongdoings and your own misgivings. That's like the me sowing versus me reaping thing. It's like me sowing. It's like this is great. Me reaping is like, wait, what the fuck? Honestly, every time, but the thing is,
Starting point is 00:11:52 when you casually, let's start with social media, because when you casually retweet something, right, which I'm sure all of us done, and just add a comment about how bad this thing is, or how bad this person's, the way they're talking or the way they're saying is so stupid, you're like, that means nothing. It means nothing. They're not getting noticed this. They fucking notice. They fucking notice.
Starting point is 00:12:10 They see it and it goes in. And when you're on the receiving end of it, you feel completely different about it. And so you're like, why is everyone being so mean to me? What happened to nuance? The nuance that you didn't have when you're quote tweeting someone else. And I also think like it's really interesting that like, I don't know, someone says something stupid, someone else quote tweets it and offers it up like, look how stupid this person is. That one person doing that isn't enough. All 463 of us also must quote tweet and reiterate that thought. And I guess my point is what would they learn from the first, what would they learn from the 400s and whatever number I just said, like quote tweet that they wouldn't't have learned the first time someone said look at this fucking
Starting point is 00:12:47 idiot. How have you felt when you've engaged, like what's your thought process when you've engaged in, because we're doing online shaming first, let's do social media shaming first, because I think there is a separation between wider public shaming, which we can talk about, boo boo, tomato, tomato in the stocks, and then online shaming, which often is the primary way that we shame people now, and there's obviously different reasons and we'll get into those why people might be shamed. But when you have, can you remember when you have like quote tweeted something? How have you felt when you've done it?
Starting point is 00:13:13 Actually, I also want to ask you because you're very active online. You're very active and you call people stupid online. Just call me mentally unwell and be done with it. We're both mentally unwell, but we both call people stupid online. And I want to know how you feel when you're doing it. I think so. I haven't done it in a long time. I certainly have had the urge to but I haven't done it in a long time and I think it's because I didn't like, I liked the way I felt if I'm being completely honest when I used to do that shit in my 20s. Now in hindsight, I don't like that I liked the way it made me feel, if that makes sense.
Starting point is 00:13:42 I felt much smarter than I was. I felt really important and I felt like some sort of, I don't know, moral arbiter. I felt like I was in a Roman Coliseum and being like, you know, yeah, like, do you know what I mean? It was really giving the, you know, thumbs down in like a, yeah, I don't know. I'm not proud of what led to me thinking that was a way to behave, if that made sense. I think that being said, to make it out that I was just a sociopath that wanted to inflict cruelty on random strangers online just also wouldn't be, I guess, accurate summation of what it was.
Starting point is 00:14:20 I think part of me did think that maybe it was ushering in some form of change if someone said something. All of these things, oh there it goes, a lot of these things really were stupid and racist and sexist that were being said and I was reacting to. I guess some misplaced part of myself did think that it was part of creating some sort of dialogue or creating therefore some sort of change, but I wish I could say that was the driving force. A lot of it was just fucking showing off as well because it's also public and performative. Look how funny I am, look how insightful I am. Look how much meaner I can be about this person but in a funny way.
Starting point is 00:14:55 I want to throw it to you Ash because you're active online. You do a lot of quote-tweeting. I do. I suppose there's a lot of things which are being sort of bundled up within the thing of online shaming and I wonder if we can draw it out. So one is there's a form of online shaming, which is as you say morality plays and it's a sort of like I'm going to narrative, narrativise a set of interactions in a way which makes me look morally righteous and like a victim. There is so much social capital in being perceived as a victim and people race to occupy that space first. And you can see that logic play out in like really macro ways, right? I think that that's something which plays out politically. I think it's something which is really interesting that we're seeing going on right now in the context of an ongoing
Starting point is 00:15:43 genocide. And you've got people who are here in the UK kind of making stuff up and being like, well, I felt very threatened by this like slogan, or like I misread something and it made me feel really threatened. There is a race to occupy the position of victim because it's a way of obscuring power dynamics, or it's a way of making something seem more morally justifiable when it's not. And it's a way of making something seem more morally justifiable
Starting point is 00:16:05 when it's not and it's a way of advancing a set of politics and I think that's an increasingly big part of our politics. I wouldn't necessarily call that process online shaming, I think it's something else. There's another form of online shaming where it is about saying, it's playing out political conflict or ideological conflict in a way which is like kind of barbed and personal. And that is definitely something that I have done and still do.
Starting point is 00:16:32 How do you feel when you're doing it? Great. I distinguish in my head between private citizens who might say things that I disagree with and someone where it's like, okay, I'm really going to go for them and take apart what they've said because they're a public figure in some way. I think that's an important distinction by the way. And I didn't always draw it. I didn't always draw it. I think that there are times where someone who is a private citizen says something I want to say, well, I think this shows something interesting. But I have my gloves on for that because I just think that, you know,
Starting point is 00:17:08 this person just came on Twitter today. They didn't they didn't want their whole life to be blown up. Do you think we're good actors of what the gloves are, though? No. And I think that they there is a feeling of regret that comes from having been too mean, too quick and written somebody off when they really didn't deserve it. And I also think that it can be really counterproductive. And I see it all the time, which is someone is,
Starting point is 00:17:33 steps out of line, right? Wherever the line is, and by the way, the line is constantly moving, so good luck keeping up with it. Someone steps out of line. And instead of there being a discussion where you can also accept that maybe think different things, they are subject to such intense public shaming
Starting point is 00:17:50 that it kind of drives them mad and drives them away. And I think that it's something which the left is really, really bad at doing. And we play it out again and again, which is someone steps out of line, there is this huge disproportionate response, and then they get driven away and into the arms of often the far right and then we go
Starting point is 00:18:05 Oh see They are this way and they are the way that we always said they were and we neglect to look at our own Part in like driving them into the arms of these like like waiting fascists who are like, yeah I will be nice to you or fucking horrible to everyone else But we nice to you and there's one last form of online shaming which I guess I want to talk about which is There's one last form of online shaming which I guess I want to talk about which is something which I get a lot which is people who are trying to sexually shame me in some way online. And there'll be people who will have pretended to have had sex with me at uni and will be like, oh yeah, I can tell you so many things.
Starting point is 00:18:41 I'll be like, let me tell you. You're going to have to have the most boring story ever. Like, we're like, yeah, she just kept trying to eat crisps the whole time. Like, you know, she was like, you know, watching Formula One over my shoulder. Like, she doesn't really check it out. But it's a form of sexual shaming,
Starting point is 00:18:59 which is like trying to cut to the quick of a person and through the public persona into something which is intensely vulnerable and to try and violate you through using that kind of language. And I think that that is something which doesn't just happen to public figures. I think it happens to lots of people on the internet and simply because they've got some kind of social media profile, others feel they've got a sense of ownership of them and it's so weirdly sexualized. I wanna know, do you think there has been a shift
Starting point is 00:19:29 from people coming, because in the early days of, I said the early days of the web, but the early days of the 1990s. Which was nice. The early days of my use of the web, like the 2015s. Do you know the sound of a dialogue modem? Yeah, of course. Okay, right, so you know that, yeah.
Starting point is 00:19:42 We had a dialogue, thank God. Oh, I know the sound of a dialogue modem. I was intimately acquainted. It's on Wikipedia looking up Jack the Ripper. Yeah, I course. Okay, right. So we have a dial-up. Thank God. Oh, I know the sign of a dial-up, I'm ready. I was intimately acquainted. It's on Wikipedia looking up Jack the Ripper. Yeah, I remember being like, Mom, why is the phone screaming? Yeah. Anyway, but I'm interested in thinking about like, when we got Twitter and when we got social media and we were able to start sharing experiences online for the first time,
Starting point is 00:20:00 do you think there has been a shift in the way that public shaming is done? Obviously, John Ronson wrote his book, So You've Been Publicly Shamed. When was that? 2018? Maybe earlier? 2015? A little bit earlier. But do you think it is ramped up or do you think this is just a perception of the cycles moving faster? And do you think we are all doing morality plays, no matter what the level of the person is? Because that was happening way back. Do you remember that woman who got on the flight and she made that awful racist joke and then by the time she got off the flight. Justine Sacco.
Starting point is 00:20:28 You know her name, see? It's burned to... That's all she'll ever be known for. Yeah. Yeah. Like a cat and a maid. It's like, oh my God. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:20:36 But now I wonder if like, that ruined her life. And I wonder if now the public shaming that's done is almost less life ruiners cause we're desensitizedized but it happens at a faster lick. That's a really interesting question. I don't necessarily think it's gotten worse. I do think it's become more run-of-the-mill. I definitely think it's more normalized and I think that the ramifications are potentially, I think you
Starting point is 00:21:03 said something like it happens and maybe people move on quicker, so maybe it's not as like life-destroying as it once would have been like in say 2015. That being said, I do feel like who it can happen to now feels a lot more arbitrary and random, and it does feel very much like you can wake up, misspell something on Twitter and suddenly be viral. I think, even just like people, I don't know, a real normalised thing I've been seeing is people taking pictures or just a selfie that maybe, I don't know, someone that isn't necessarily conventionally attractive, that's my really like, kind of, you know, I'm trying to sound articulate about
Starting point is 00:21:41 saying someone isn't attractive, but I don't know how to say that. You're like their butters. Right. Someone who's clapped. But what will happen is, what I'm seeing, I think, is really quite mad, is that someone who is clapped for lack of a better phrase will go viral for that reason.
Starting point is 00:22:03 And people will quote tweet just being like, this person's ugly and it will have 250,000 likes. And then I'm just kind of like, and maybe it'll be that person is unattractive, but they're a conservative. And it's not even necessarily they're a Tory, they're an actual politician. It's just, oh, well we've checked that person's bio and they voted Brexit and they're ugly. So they're fair game. So they're now, do you know what I mean? So now they're fair game. I have a I mean? So now they're game. I find that weird. I have to flip side to this question
Starting point is 00:22:26 of this cycle moving faster. Do you think it's undermining actual campaigns to get justice? So everything is treated with the same sort of triviality and infirmity, because I'm thinking about Me Too, for example, and all the work of Me Too, even though there's obviously massive, what's it called? There's lots of things you could criticize about that campaign
Starting point is 00:22:43 and what he's doing and how it went about, and I think the list touches on some of those. But like Harvey Weinstein, all the convictions are being overturned because no one gives a fuck anymore. There's just the ability to give a fuck is just undermined by the sheer deluge of public shaming that we have. And it's because we tell ourselves that that is justice and that someone getting dunked on is a form of justice even if the world continues turning in the exact way it was.
Starting point is 00:23:04 I've got a big theory about this. Let's go big, let's make the actions. Let's go. Guys, I feel a big theory coming. I've got a big theory about this. All right, the attention economy is real. Our attention has been turned into a commodity. What's that you're saying?
Starting point is 00:23:19 All right. Get. And the fact is, is that all of these apps that we're talking about, like TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, whatever, the way in which they work is that the content is like a morsel of cheese and the platform is a mousetrap, right? So the content is keeping you engaged and the longer that you're there, the more your data can be harvested and that is in itself a commodity. Right? So you've got the emergence of this new section of the economy, which didn't really exist before. Right? Didn't really exist before.
Starting point is 00:23:52 So there's that thing. Second is you've got the hollowing out of all of these civil society institutions, which used to be really powerful. Political party membership overall across the last 40 years has dropped for basically every party. Trade union membership dropped. People's ability to participate in activist groups, which are big and meaningful, has plummeted. What has grown? Online activism. Online communities. And so much of what people argue about is like, are you giving the right thing attention or the right kind of attention? And you see it all the time, which is like, there'll be one news story and then people
Starting point is 00:24:27 go, well, what about this one? You're not talking about this one. And it's like fighting over attention is the political conflict. And the thing that I would ask people to think about is, well, if you give this thing adequate attention, does that mean this thing changes? No, not always, often not. And I think that online shaming is people's only experience of power, right? And it's a really limiting form of power. And so then when it comes to other ways of doing things, other ways of feeling powerful,
Starting point is 00:24:55 it's like, well, that doesn't exist. This is the only way in which I know how to feel powerful. Just wanna note that actually melted chocolate is more effective at getting mice in traps than cheese. Really? Why do you know that? It's just my experience. Just don't go with the cheese. Melt a little bit of a chocolate butter on a mousetrap. That's what you're going to get. But back to this, what about when it's an institution that's being shamed? I want to know your thoughts on this because we're talking about
Starting point is 00:25:18 the interactions between people and accusations between individuals. But can good come of public shaming? And also I want us to know if we think good good come of public shaming? And also I want us to know if we think good can come of public shaming individuals, but like can good come of public shaming institutions? Online or IRL? I would say yes, in the same way that I think what you said about,
Starting point is 00:25:42 I think, let me think. Let me think before I speak. I- No. Mrs. If I speak. You're like, let me think before I speak. I- No. Listen, if I speak- You're like, oh, because if I speak- No, like the podcast industry is not built on people thinking before they speak. You're not allowed to chew over your thoughts.
Starting point is 00:25:55 It's actually illegal. It's actually illegal. Say some shit, we'll decide if it's good after- And then quote tweet when I'm getting dragged for what I inevitably say. I think I'd say yes to institutions and I would say yes when it comes to powerful people to some degree because I don't wanna conflate, I don't wanna suggest that Me Too was simply
Starting point is 00:26:14 a big public shaming campaign, but there was an element of so-called public shaming which I think led to its effectiveness. And whilst it might have been defanged over the past few years, it definitely did achieve some things. And I think where I feel uncomfortable is, I suppose, lumping it in with public shaming,
Starting point is 00:26:35 because I feel like it's... I think you were saying it's a slightly different thing. I do think that institutions, I do think people with power are essentially fair game. I think where the issue comes is that once upon a time when verification for instance on Twitter meant something, literally just being verified was seen as a form of power. Having a hundred thousand followers but also being like a completely normal civilian person that works nine to five like anyone else is
Starting point is 00:26:59 seen as a form of power. I think what we consider being powerful has been kind of skewed and become quite strange. Like loads of Twitter followers, loads of Instagram followers, being highly visible online, being someone with a platform, having a blue tick when it mattered. Those are things that people consider powerful. Therefore, people will apply the same kind of standards and level of public shaming to a random random TikToker that still, you know,
Starting point is 00:27:27 lives with their mom as they do to like fucking Shell. And I'm like, that makes no sense. Do you get what I mean? As well, can companies even be shamed? Cause shame is- Yes, exactly. It's an emotion. But this is the thing.
Starting point is 00:27:37 It's an emotion. It's an emotion, right? It's an emotion, right? I'm not wasting the inside out. You know, it's an emotion. But that is a brilliant point. I think- Well, that's about reputational damage, right. I'm not wasting it inside out, you know, it's an emotion. But that is a brilliant point, I think. Well, that's about reputational damage, right? Yeah, and I don't think that institutions can feel shame,
Starting point is 00:27:52 even though I think that kind of links into that weird kind of like humanizing we're seeing of companies and brands. And when you see like, I don't know, pretty little thing online kind of talking to you, like, hey girl, like, God, I love this love island. I'm rooting for her to win. I'm like, not to get all existential, but who are you? Is this like shot, my friend?
Starting point is 00:28:09 How are you sent? Exactly. Sentient shots. What's going on? So, yeah, I think that even the fact that we think that they can be shamed, it's like, well, they can't because they're brands. And yeah, as you said, is this... I always think about that bit from Succession where like, Chivaroe is going, we get it. After like the horrible sexual violence epidemic at like Wasteland.
Starting point is 00:28:28 She's like, we get it. We hear you. I mean, but I think that there's a sort of interesting thing and Naomi Klein writes about it, which is social media has turned us all into brands and brand ambassadors for ourselves. And so we're thinking about managing reputational damage for ourselves, whether or not we're public figures. Yeah. And you know, you talked about, you know, well, what do we define as having power?
Starting point is 00:28:47 And it's not just about the number of followers. I think that when good ideas become bad because they've just sort of been used willy-nilly, right? I kind of think Bordeaux has a lot to answer for, right? So many of these ideas, were kind of came from particular left-wing thinkers, you know, within the context of humanities, they were trying to make sense of how power works through all of us. So Foucault writes about this, Baudrillard writes about this, Badger writes about this. Yes, they are all different people, they sound very similar. They're all trying to
Starting point is 00:29:19 say, well, okay, power works through us and it's not just through institutions. And I think, well, yeah, that's a good and important idea. Right. And power does work through us. But then it sort of becomes applied to everything. And the example I'm going to give is, do you remember West Elm Caleb? Of course. West Elm Caleb. Right. This dude who was just like your common or garden fuckboy. He like, you know, ghosted women.
Starting point is 00:29:44 It got turned into this morality play. And then everyone's like, I got West Elm Caleb. I got West Elm Caleb. It was like, me too. Like it was like, for me too for ghosting. And I was like, one, this is so undignified. Like, I was like, I've been- He was not hot enough to merit all of that, Jesus Christ.
Starting point is 00:29:58 Not hot enough. And two, I was like, just take the L, talk up to the game. Like- Exactly, the game is the game. But then people are like, no, but he had power, or he was manipulative, or he was gaslighting, or he created these uneven expectations of commitment, and that was a form of abuse, really. And saying, well, because he's a man,
Starting point is 00:30:18 and because it's within a heterosexual dynamic, he has power, therefore he deserves to be shamed in this way. And I was like, oh, seems like a bad use of a good idea. Yeah, that's just the intellectualizing of like being really fucking mean, it's just kind of like trying to make something that is just kind of understandably out of like spite and like malice but trying to make it sound like super clever and valid, I guess. I think you see a lot of that online, right?
Starting point is 00:30:46 Where people are just like, I wanna say this person's butters, but I've got to find a way to be allowed. So I'm gonna point out their tweet from 2012 in which they said something sexist. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so it's gonna be filtered through a structural lens of like harm.
Starting point is 00:31:01 Yeah, no one just wants to be a dickhead with their chest anymore. Like everyone's trying to make it some sort of intersectional... It has to be part of a moral crusade. But again, this is the thing about, you know, thinking about publicly shaming in the way that you were writing about it, which is that there are allegations being made against particular people. What worries me...
Starting point is 00:31:21 So like, first, do we have any anarchists in the room? Yes! Oh, yay! We've got one, alright? I'm not an anarchist anymore, I love the state, but I used to be. And I think anarchists all have very, very good critiques of the state. One day we're going to find out how you went from anarchist to state lover. Climate change, I think anarchists are bad when it comes to infrastructure.
Starting point is 00:31:40 Let's not get into this, actually. I asked the wrong question. I asked the wrong question, I'm so sorry. I read Xi Jinping thoughts and I was like, oh, That's not good. I asked the wrong question. I asked the wrong question. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I read Xi Jinping thoughts and I was like, oh, this is a good guy. No, but you used to be an anarchist. And so there were always these accountability processes.
Starting point is 00:31:54 And it was supposed to be an alternative to carceral state justice. So allegations would be made of usually sexual wrongdoing. And then there'd be a sort of process of what were effectively self-appointed individuals going, all right, well, we're going to define what accountability is. We're going to be in charge of designing the process and we're going to try and like make this thing work. And one of the things I learned from it is that while there were so many good intentions going into it, I think it actually ended up being more punitive and more carceral in some ways than actually just like going to the police because it was never ending. It was never ever ending. There wasn't a sense of like, okay, well, this is how we're going to determine what's true and
Starting point is 00:32:34 what wasn't. Because all these rules came in of like, well, you have to believe the victim. That's the tautology. When you say you have to believe the victim, you've already believed that they are a victim. And what I think is that like, false allegations are incredibly rare, but you can't write them out of possibility. That's not a just process. And also they're incredibly rare in a police station. We do not know how rare they are online, because the internet. And I think I'm amazed at that even being like a remotely controversial point of view. I'm always saying this like we grew
Starting point is 00:33:11 up watching catfish. It's got nothing to do with you know thinking that women are randomly making things up. Everyone is randomly making things up because we're on the internet. That's literally the first rule of the internet and I think yeah sorry I just had to claim it. It drives me mad. I think that's linked to the shaming. I think that's linked to this change in, because we don't understand what justice is anymore.
Starting point is 00:33:34 What is justice when it's online? What are we actually asking for? What is the end? Yeah, what is the wrongdoing? How do you establish what's happened? And online, it's not like this, as you say, a process, and even your Kafka espers that you put forward there, but it's not like a process where there's-
Starting point is 00:33:48 There's all these people with fucking anemia, in a room being like, we can deal with this. I'm like, you can't even deal with your own calcium intake. Yeah. Do you think, what I'm interested as well is we're all, I think all of us are part of very specific subsections online and we've been in them. And often there are spaces where people feel that they're more devoid of power, that they
Starting point is 00:34:15 feel they don't have access to power. Usually there's very legitimate reasons behind that. And so the shaming and this idea of we're going to get justice through the only democratic way we know, which is the online platform, happens more frequently. But do you think that's warped our understanding of what power actually is and how we could actually have agency, if we think that's our only recourse to an idea of justice that we're not even sure of what it is? Again, I want to think, but I realise there's literally a clock. You love to think. I can I'm like I want to think but I really like this
Starting point is 00:34:46 literally you love to think I love okay go on it Ash can answer for me. Ash is just going to go. Again just call me mentally unwell and be done with it. It's not mentally unwell. I was just thinking about a time where I actually did leverage the threat of publicly shaming someone and so what happened was, is that there was this guy who is like really, really rich. All right. When I say like rich, I mean like richer than God. And can you introduce me? No, you do not want to meet this guy. I'll see where the story goes.
Starting point is 00:35:21 No, I'm sold. I met him in like a professional political context. and he always gave me a weird vibe and one time he was like, I just want to give you money, no strings attached money and I was like, I've read... Okay, no, can you introduce me now? Wait a minute. I was like, look, you know... Get in line.
Starting point is 00:35:37 I'm no economist but there's no such thing as no strings attached money, so I was like, no. And then a while later, he got a bit drunk and he was like incredibly sexually harassing. Like, I mean, it was just like, it was horrible. And the thing which like flipped into my mind was like, well, you are incredibly rich and you will tell the world I'm lying.
Starting point is 00:36:01 Like you will tell the world I'm lying. I'm not sure like how much you're going to escalate this. So what I did was, I did a series of tweets where like I did not name him to be like this happened at this time, like immediately when it happened. So I was like because if I get into a court with you and you're trying to sue me for libel or something I'm gonna fucking point to that and be like no that's evidence that I was telling the truth and that my version of the story has never changed.
Starting point is 00:36:25 And I didn't name him in it, but I always sort of like reserved the right to do it as a way of saying to him, don't fuck with me. Yeah. And was that the most direct way of dealing with a problem? No. Was it one which worked because that was power that I had within that situation? Well, yeah.
Starting point is 00:36:49 That's a really good example. It seemed justifiable because I knew I was telling the truth. Yeah, I still think it is justifiable. Is there? Okay. That's kind of, because I was like trying to think of an example that would make me think yes, and that is an example which makes me think, well, that is the very specific power that you had against his millions and billions and zillions. I just don't know if, I mean, I know there are examples, but it's like I'm
Starting point is 00:37:15 trying to draw on one that isn't at that. I'm not just going to steal from Ash and like change the name. I've got an example of when it's a murkier thing. When does the shaming, when does your truth telling become shaming to someone? Yes. Because, okay, here's an example of someone who'd fucking hate me talking about this. There was someone in my life at one point
Starting point is 00:37:36 who I said we had an intimate relationship, and I said something online about an intimate relationship I had. Didn't mention them, I didn't say any of that. Just managed to talk about it. And they went mad at me. They said that I was ruining their life, or even referencing something that they thought
Starting point is 00:37:53 could apply to them, I won't say whether or not. Hadn't mentioned any details or anything. And I thought I was just commenting on a facet of a relationship. I was like, this is an experience that I had. That you were also in. That I had. I didn't say it was to do with this person, I didn't link anything.
Starting point is 00:38:07 They read it and said, is this about me? How can you think that you're going to ruin my life? Everyone's going to know that's about me, et cetera, et cetera. To this day, they despise me. And I think a lot of it's projection personally, but, you know, I was telling my truth. I was telling my truth. But was I, without really being aware of it,
Starting point is 00:38:26 being cogent of it, publicly shaming them? Because I was so like, in my experience too... I don't think so, Moira. You say that, but it was my... You're far too kind. I mean, they weren't... It doesn't sound like they were even identifiable. But there's other things as well. I'm a writer, sometimes. Mostly a talker. But when I've written things, I've brought stuff in where I've been like, it's perfectly fine to write about this. And in the past, when I was younger before, I actually grew up and this is a lot of content
Starting point is 00:38:49 that we produce online is like useful, and the useful white heat. And in the past, I've written explicitly about breakups, explicitly about things that happened. And even now when I've written about breakups or whatever, I've been like, oh, they were like the love of my life so far. They still fucking hated that. It's like, what is one person- Is it because you put so far? It's like when I introduced my husband, I was like, oh, they were like the love of my life so far. They still fucking hated that. It's like, what is one person-
Starting point is 00:39:05 Is it because you put so far? It's like when I introduced my husband, I was like, my first husband. It gets really upset by that. No, it's because my, my, what I think is humiliating or shameful is not the same as another person's metric. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:39:19 And what I think is the truth- And there's no universal kind of standard is there at all. And there's no universal truth either. But then it's also, that's the issue. It's like, it is your truth. And it's also something that you were in. I could be mad. But, I don't know.
Starting point is 00:39:30 How do you decide whether you should talk about these things in public or not? I have such a bugbear, which is I hate the phrase my truth. I hate it so, so much. I don't want to point the bit, to be honest. I hate it. And again, this is me being like a crotchety old Marxist, but I just like, why are we talking about the truth? I understand that there's like different
Starting point is 00:39:48 perspectives and that people have different points of view on things, but I really hate it when people go, well, it's my truth. It's like, yeah, we're talking shit. Yeah, exactly. They're like, no, it's my truth. Like, and how do you feel about it when it's your truth? Do you feel it's your truth? No, I think it's the truth. No, but I think it's important to like stake a claim on a reality that's outside of yourself. Because also when you do that,
Starting point is 00:40:10 like you, I think I'm a bit more encouraged to think about what might have been the case for other people. So if you say, well, what's your truth of the situation? I'll be like, well, that's one way I'm right and everyone else is a fucking idiot. Like if you were trying to, if you tried a different approach and you went, well, what was the truth of it? I'll be like, well, I did behave in these ways.
Starting point is 00:40:30 And if I'm being honest with myself, I did that for these things. And it probably had these consequences where people responded like this. And I think that social media allows us to create tailored realities and tailored realities, which aren't always good for us. On Twitter, it's a tailored reality where you think that everybody is either like an anime tankie or a literal neo-Nazi because that's how- It's very specific to you.
Starting point is 00:40:56 Right? That is how my feed looks in front of me or on TikTok or on Instagram, all of these things algorithmically shaping your reality based on how these platforms define you, right? And so they give you a tale of reality that's not always good for you. And so I think that the fact that we go, all right, well, I'm going to speak my truth. Right. And I'm going to I'm going to not have the responsibility
Starting point is 00:41:19 of making a broader claim on what reality is in a way that includes other people. I think is bad. I thought of an example where public shaming actually is good but it's offline. When someone is being racist, misogynist, whatever, and they're on the tube, for example, and someone else is going, shut the fuck up, and everyone's like, boo. That's like, what the hell are you doing? That's public shaming. That's the essence of public shaming. Or do you not think that because do you think shame has such stigma attached to it that you categorize that as something different?
Starting point is 00:41:48 Depends on the racist. And this, and again, it's like, I'll explain what I mean by that. I'm seated. Because I said that. We're listening. And I was like, because some racists are hot. No. I'm joking.
Starting point is 00:42:01 I'm joking. Can't wait to quite tweet that to you. That is going to catch. No, the thing is, is that like, you know, there are people who are like ideological racists. There are people who are, you know, confident in expressing their racism because they are on a shit tonne of cocaine. And then there are people who quite obviously have like mental health issues or substance
Starting point is 00:42:19 abuse issues who are being filmed in that moment being like horrendously like, you know, racist or sexist or homophobic. And I go, I don't think this is right. I don't think this is right. Like, yes, they are victimising people around them, but they also so clearly are victims of other things. And I worry that our own sense of moral righteousness, we really need things to be clear cut all the time where there is a victim and a perpetrator, but life is more complex. 100%, and I'm just thinking about that example you've given,
Starting point is 00:42:51 and there's absolutely no context within online. Anyone would suggest that person wasn't deserving of that shaming. You'd probably get like the odd, like Ash being like, hang on guys, maybe, but everybody else in the world would be like, no, get that racist out of there. There'd be people like, why do you love racism so much?
Starting point is 00:43:04 Like literally 100%, you'd then get counseling with love and there. There are people that are like, why do you love racism so much? Like, literally, 100%. You'd then get counseled for love and racism. When you're, yeah, when you're quote treating someone and you're just calling them like, for whatever, across the spectrum, from the pettiest to the most serious, what in your head, how do you envisage that person?
Starting point is 00:43:18 Oh, I'm trying to like, access the part of myself like from my 20s where, because I mean, I'm so terrified of being quote treated myself, I wouldn't possibly dare unless it was such a I removed myself now I just tweet the most boring things I'm mine is just constant retweets of my you're the last one standing ash and I was in your head when you have an avatar of that person if you if they're not like I don't know Eric Pickles like you've got a turn your head of the person. An image.
Starting point is 00:43:45 It's never gonna be, yeah. They don't have humanity. I'm not sure I've always had one. If I'm being completely honest, I've always said that like, when I started being on the receiving end of shit, or when I was on the receiving end of shit, I was like, these people think I am just a sim
Starting point is 00:43:59 in their computer. That like, I'm not, I'm literally just, the screen is literally making this person think I am pixels, like lots of pixels in a trench coat, essentially. And I'm like, well. A Burberry trench. Right, right. Right.
Starting point is 00:44:12 Always. But I think if I'm being honest, that dehumanization that I was constantly decrying, I don't want to stand here and be like, I wasn't simultaneously doing the exact same thing. Because so often I would just quote tweet so unthinkingly and also do it when I'd notice that like say 70 people have quote tweeted someone. I'd be like oh yeah I've bunged my old my old little like drag in there as well why not one one extra one for luck and it was rare that I'd like go onto that's profile or platform and actually, if I'm being so honest, it doesn't paint me in the best light,
Starting point is 00:44:47 but I'm being frank, I don't think often I bothered to, because I was doing it quite frequently as well, and just joining in. I wasn't taking the time to read the bio of, like, mother of three loves dogs. I was just like, I don't know who this is. Fuck your kids and fuck your dog. They're not human. So maybe this is the thing, it's like, can good ever come out of a shaming campaign that doesn't take into account who the person is in the context and also what the purpose of
Starting point is 00:45:13 the shaming is. I doubt it. I wouldn't go as far as to say no, but I think I feel less confident that it would than I did 10 years ago for sure. Hence why I was like, should we give up shaving or should we just carry it? Cause then what is this useful? It works in certain contexts, as you said, like the example you gave of like in person,
Starting point is 00:45:32 I think was a really good one, but then the broader context that Ash brought to it then also made me think that too comes with its. But look, it's nuanced, it's all this nuance. We're all too clever, that's the problem. There's just so much going on. I just quote me and don't think too much about it. I mean, look, I think there's like a few things here.
Starting point is 00:45:50 Like one is that when you are doing the old quote tweet, you're not actually looking to persuade the person you're quote tweeting. You're actually looking to stage a conflict for an audience. This is exactly the issue. Do you think about this? Because DMs are open. And you're like, I want this conflict. Absolutely. Are you saying, I want these hands, I as a failure though? Because DMs are open.
Starting point is 00:46:06 You're like, I want this conflict. I'm showing these hands. That's absolutely what it's about. And I think, you are not the only one, I think every single one of us that does that nine times out of ten, that is what the purpose is because people have direct messages. I think that's always been my thing.
Starting point is 00:46:22 People have even just commenting underneath a post. I think one of the weirder things I've seen is when Someone is you know, there's a pile on on somebody and someone who is friendly with or knows that person Quote tweets and joins in and I'm like you probably have that person's phone number You could just text them and be like you're being a cunt. You don't need to stage a dramatize There's also fear of conflict in there because we're talking we're talking now about the interpersonal, when it's like a fear of confronting someone. Because it's like, it's so deep. I'm thinking about when I've had direct links to people and I could have reached out, but I've not,
Starting point is 00:46:54 I've been too scared to. But did you find it more confrontational to go, no, I see it. You're a bastard and I'm going to put that on like a PowerPoint and tell everybody. My twisted little head thinks it's less. Because it's so deep. So deep.
Starting point is 00:47:05 Depersonalized. It is very depersonalized. Well, I think it's also like. So interesting. And I say this all the time. And it's this, is that human beings have evolved with only one way to stay alive. And that's social connection with other human beings.
Starting point is 00:47:20 If you put a human being alone in the wilderness, they will die. The only thing that keeps us alive is each other. And then we've created these platforms which are playing out social ostracism all the time. Every day, if you're on TikTok, particularly TikTok and Twitter, it's a bit less on Instagram, you're seeing people being like cast out of the circle, which I think activates something really primal within us where it's like oh I've just seen somebody die right I've just I've just seen someone like cast out into the wilderness to die and I think
Starting point is 00:47:54 RIP Paddington's Hole, you were a good one. Paddington's Hole? It's just Twitter names. Okay I was like leave Paddington's Hole out of this. I love your brain. I love that's what you've conjured. Just look at that. I was like, that was a nice bear. You were a good one. We had some good times together. But like, you're seeing this play out all the time. Like, you're seeing people die in front of you.
Starting point is 00:48:16 And I think that creates this sense of panic, like heightened panic. I think the real reason why people rush to denounce people who they know, rather than reaching out is because they're scared of being caught up in it themselves. That's what it is. It's so, so cowardly and nasty. But what if the person has been accused of something really serious? Like, sexual abuse. Is it cowardly then or is it like, what is the... But I just still think that that conversation can happen in two person. I think for me the problem with, so my best friend who was my co-author Elizabeth, if you've ever been any, like she came off of Twitter the
Starting point is 00:48:50 minute that quote tweets were introduced. The day they arrived she went peace I'm done, like I'm gone. And it's because she was like it's the spectacle. Like yeah she was like there other than you know quote tweeting something to sort of say it's funny and you agree with it, what else? I mean, even that, I don't know, I find the quote tweet function so fascinating because unless you are expanding on an original idea that's been said in the tweet,
Starting point is 00:49:14 what is it other than, haha, I concur, I agree. You can do that by retweeting. And I think there is value in a quote tweet function, but I think in conflict, for me, it often does just feel like there is very little to it other than performance. And she was just like, this is going to take dunking that we see from, you know, when we see like somebody tweet something, something rather, and someone reply and they get dragged and they get 10,000 likes underneath that. It's going to go from something that
Starting point is 00:49:39 people look for to something that is... The purpose. The purpose, right, exactly. And it's saying that's how you level up. Exactly, 100%. And I think she is a soothsayer because I'm like, yeah, she was 100% fucking right on that. And like, I think, yeah.
Starting point is 00:49:52 Can we even still publicly shame offline anymore in the same way? I've given the one-to-one, but if you were going against Shell, that's just like a campaign. You're just doing activism if you're outside Shell, being like, stop this. I mean, you obviously can publicly shame people offline. But like, de-pantsing them by humiliating them,
Starting point is 00:50:10 not like, you're not being like, you use this word wrong. That's why I wear jumpsuits, no one is fucking de-pantsing me. Like, you will have to bring a seam ripper with you. I mean, no, you can publicly shame people in real life. Tell me how, I wanna know. No, you do not need this guidebook for it. But I wanna know, how do you think you can do it
Starting point is 00:50:31 this effectively? Do you need this? I think sly comments should make reference to things that you've done and that you would rather not be known. But that's interpersonal shame, it's not the same thing. Yeah, no, I think that it kind of is and people feel that sense of,
Starting point is 00:50:45 you know when all your sphincters go, like, you know, because someone's mentioned something you'd rather not and you're like, oh, this feels very pointed, like yeah, that's a form of public shaming. But like 10,000 people can't see it at once, it's like maybe some people are party-seekers. That's true, that's true, but like, that's the thing is that we've created platforms where 10,000 people can see you be publicly shamed and they did not exist before. Okay, well we've got to shame some other people in a minute but to wrap it up okay public shaming do we think any good come out of it? Yay, nay, boo. Let's go to the binaries. Where we at? I think we're at it depends. I think I'm kind of at the wrong place.
Starting point is 00:51:21 I'm more this, I'm this on the spectrum. I think it's bad. Will I stop doing it? No. That's me with literally 90% of things. So fair enough, no judgment here. Shall we solve some dilemmas? Let's solve some dilemmas. Okay. All right. So you must be introducing this, but I can if you want. Oh, great. I'll introduce it. I'm on the right page.
Starting point is 00:51:42 You can introduce it if you want. I would love to introduce it. Okay, you go. Because I get so excited whenever I introduce. I'm in big trouble. I do introduce it. I'm on the right page. You can introduce it if you want. I would love to introduce it. Okay, you don't. Because I get so excited whenever I introduce. I'm in big trouble. I do introduce. Which is our regular dilemma segment. And if you are listening to this podcast
Starting point is 00:51:53 or if you're in the audience and you've got a problem that we couldn't possibly make any worse. And that's important. You have to be confident that we can't fuck up your shit even more. Or if that we do, you're not gonna hold us
Starting point is 00:52:04 account. Leg legally liable. Don't publicly shame us. No, I was more like, don't sue us. You know what to do, email us at if I speak at navaramedia.com. That's if I speak at navaramedia.com, mwya. Before we get into this though, what we want to do in this, we're going to go through the problems and we're going to give our advice and then we want to ask someone from the audience what they think as well. So just be listening and get some advice ready and then... So prime those advice giving glands.
Starting point is 00:52:33 I think there's ushers but if not I'll run around with the mic again. Okay, do you want to read out Shaline? Yeah, you read the first one. Dilemma one. If you're here, he's written this in by the way. Enjoy. Hello, As the way. Enjoy. Hello, Ashton Boyle. First of all, I want to say a massive thank you for all the work you do both on and off this podcast.
Starting point is 00:52:52 I think you're both amazing human beings. I do very little work off of this podcast. Also, it's so nice when people send in lovely things at the start, but you don't have to. We'll still read it out, don't worry. No, pay the toll. Pay the toll. Pay the toll. Pay the toll. About a year ago, I, 23, female, single, was diagnosed with PCOS, and unsurprisingly, this has brought up a lot of complicated feelings to me. I don't know if I want kids,
Starting point is 00:53:15 but the prospect of being infertile has loomed large over my mind for the past year, and it's something I've definitely not come to terms with yet. In addition to the fertility anxiety, my relationship with my body has worsened. And whilst I know these thoughts are a product of cis-heteropatriarchy, I can't help but feel like my body is a broken and undesirable failure. Oh, babe.
Starting point is 00:53:36 I've tried to discuss both these feelings with some of my close female friends, but I've come to the realization that often these conversations leave me feeling even more isolated and sometimes resentful. Even though none of my peers are planning to be parents anytime soon, babies and parenting are increasingly popular topics of conversation. Every time this comes up, it sends me on an emotional roller coaster, and I just don't feel like my situation or my feelings are at all considered or handled sensitively. situation, all my feelings are at all considered or handled sensitively. If I do bring up my infertility, I either feel overly pitied or outright dismissed, but I don't even know
Starting point is 00:54:12 myself how I want people to broach this topic with me. I also fear and know that these feelings are only going to intensify with age as these hypotheticals become realities. I don't want to resent my friend's happiness and hopes for the future and I know this bitterness is largely unfair and only going to isolate me from those I care about. With all this in mind, I'd love to hear both your thoughts. Am I being selfish in this desire for others to center my negative feelings on this topic above their own positive ones? If I were to bring this up with them, what can I even ask of them if I myself am sure of what I want? How do I maintain close and fulfilling adult friendships without spiralling into existential dread
Starting point is 00:54:52 every time someone makes a comment about motherhood or babies? Thanks for reading to the end. I'm wishing you guys well always. Oh, thank you, special one. Right, does anyone want to start? Do you want to start? Me? You don't have to start. She addressed that to Moira Nash. I'm like, guys, how? Do you want to start? Do you want to start? Me? You don't have to start. She addressed that to Moira Nash. I'm like, guys, it's above my pay grade.
Starting point is 00:55:08 I'm literally like... So the dilemma is from someone who's got PCOS and she doesn't know yet if she's infertile, but she's got fertility anxiety and it's changed her relationship with her body completely. And her friends are talking about babies and parenthood quite a lot. Even though they're 23, which is early to start talking about. It's terrifying. Guys, guys, guys, babies having babies! What a crusty year, babies having babies.
Starting point is 00:55:31 But she doesn't know how to deal with these emotions and she's like increasingly angry at her friends when they talk about it. I mean look, so the first thing I would say, and I always do this where I front load the advice and then all the analysis comes afterwards, but the advice is be open with your friends about what you're thinking when you're thinking it. Because I have often felt the need to keep my difficult emotions and the ones which have got like a lot of shame and anxiety bound up in them, I felt the need to keep them to myself. And that's actually made my friendship suffer rather than made them better. And when I've been able to introduce to my friends when they're talking about something that they feel very good about, very confident in,
Starting point is 00:56:11 they go like, and I can say, I really like that for you, this is actually someone I've found really difficult and I want to know how you've gotten to this place and feeling better about it. It's actually been generous because it's offered them the opportunity to be needed whereas I'm always more comfortable when I'm the one being needed and it flipped it around. Obviously this is different because you know you're talking about something to do with your body not potentially not being able to do something that your friends may be able to do but I think the point still stands which is it is going to bring you closer to other people to express these feelings when they come up rather than thinking that it's something that
Starting point is 00:56:50 you've got to deal with far away from the daylight and far away from like the gaze of other people. So that would be my advice but I suppose my analysis of it is that we all have this idea about what your body is supposed to do and we wield that idea against ourselves, like we're whipping ourselves with it, like self-flagellating. And that can be to do with things like disability, it can be to do with things like sickness, it can be to do with things like appearance. We have this idea of what the body is meant to do. And I think even if we know it's not our fault, feel an intense sense of shame and
Starting point is 00:57:28 failure around it. And I'm just thinking about the way in which my stepdad dealt with illness, a terminal illness, he was so unable to open up that conversation at all and I think he felt so angry with himself that his body wasn't allowing him to do the things that he wanted to do. It made him really isolated and I think that it wasn't just the illness that isolated him from other people, it was the fact that he turned all of that shame and anger inwards rather than saying I'm dealing with this And I find it really really fucking difficult. That was such an excellent answer funnily enough one of the reasons I took a big step back is actually a really close friend of mine was diagnosed with
Starting point is 00:58:15 PCOS when we were 25 and for the past near decade. I've never Genuinely known how to support her through that, other than saying whenever you feel like you want to talk about this, and whenever you feel that you don't want me to talk about certain things because of it, there is never going to be a period of time in which that's not appropriate. That being said, from her perspective, I know that she is super concerned, as I imagine that this listener perspective, I know that she is super concerned, as I imagine that this listener is, of being that friend. And that's a cross that she's kind of forcing
Starting point is 00:58:52 herself to bear by virtue. And I get it, because she feels like she doesn't want to be this dark cloud that everyone's talking about a certain thing, and she's like, I can't partake. And I think sometimes there's such a miscommunication because I can't express to her how much we're all fine with that being the case, and she can't express properly how much she doesn't want to feel like that person. And yeah, it's like a big disconnect, but that answer was just so brilliant. I feel like I just want to get a stereo and just press play next to it. Next time I see her and be like, this is this is how I feel.
Starting point is 00:59:27 This might be recorded. The thing, the thing I yeah, Ash always gives the best advice, but the thing I'm getting from this that's really jumped out at me is decided about hypotheticals become realities and how this listener says that she feels either overly pitied or outright dismissed when she brings up her infertility. And I think it's because for her friends, this is all hypothetical still. Their talk of like...
Starting point is 00:59:49 Oh well, you might be fine. You might be, but also their talk of babies is totally hypothetical. They're 20 fucking three. Like it's all this dream world for them. And it's not a reality, whereas she's having to actually face this now. And that's because it's become much closer to her, this idea of, I might not be able to have children and I don't even know if I want them yet, but that might have been taken from me as an option, as an outcome that I thought was there.
Starting point is 01:00:09 Whereas her friend's like, everything's open. Everything's open still for us because they haven't yet discovered the different ways that their bodies might not be working in the way they thought. And that's something as you get older, you find out, you go through the smears, you find out what's growing inside, you find all these different things. Things stop working the way you imagine they would, and you have to change your idea of outcomes, and that's a fucking hard process, but it's one that, you know, you still have this amazing life, you still have these amazing things. You don't really learn at 23 generally, right? Yeah.
Starting point is 01:00:35 But it's like, you still have these, your life is still going to be so full and so amazing, like whatever happens, it's just like changing the outcome. But for them, this hypothetical, I think they don't want to think about it. I think they don't want to look at it because it's not real to them and they don't want to have to like deal with and they don't know what to say and I'm wondering with your friend as well do you often like just check in and talk about it or once you have that conversation you're like let's not go anymore so you both are aware you're feeling different ways but you're not actually constantly just like warming yourself up it's like a muscle right you have to keep going until you're like comfortable and like practice in having that back and forth dialogue.
Starting point is 01:01:08 It's strange because she was diagnosed at 25 and we were all, I guess, kind of weirdly simultaneously in this dream world because there are people that have PCOS that go on to have children. It's not a complete impossibility. So we, of course, and I guess Christian, you know, Christian backgrounds, like whether you actually leave the church or not, it's all, you know, hard times you always refer to God's will, just pray about it.
Starting point is 01:01:31 Do you know what I mean? Like, honestly, that is always the kind of default. So 25 years old, we're all just thinking when it comes down to it, it's a bridge that you'll cross in your 30s. Now we're in our 30s and, you know, periodically for the past however many years, we've all been sort of checking in but what I've realised for her is that I think it's a very different situation where this person clearly wants to express and communicate and discuss. Right now, my friend is at a part of her journey where she's always kind of consistently been
Starting point is 01:01:59 quite evade, but she's not ready I think to face it head on in the way that this listener is kind of facing that reality. I check in, she's always kind of candid about the fact that she'd rather not really speak about it. So my stance has just been, just know that whenever you do, if ever you do, I'm literally always, it could be three o'clock in the morning and it's a random Thursday and you just want to suddenly speak about this thing, that's totally fine. But yeah, it's... I'd love to know as well, we can't because it's a letter, but how the conversations were set up. Because she says,
Starting point is 01:02:34 I tried to discuss both these feelings about close being my friends, but I've come to the realization they leave me feeling even more isolated and oftentimes resentful. And something I've had to learn from my friends is I try and fix shit. Like when they come to me with their problems, I try and fix shit. And they're like, I don't wanna fix, I just wanna vent. I just wanna talk about this and just for you to sit and listen and say, that really sucks. That's really hard.
Starting point is 01:02:55 Or like, whereas I'll be like, this is how we're gonna sort this, everything's, as you've heard, like I was like, you gotta have a great life, and she will, but like sometimes she just wants to talk about how she's feeling. My partner is such a fixer. Like, and it's also, that's his job, he's such a fixer so I'll be like
Starting point is 01:03:07 I'm dealing with this thing, I'm finding it really difficult and I can see, and he's now tried to learn and I can see him like sitting on his hands, like he's just sort of like and then like he'll listen for a bit and he's like are you ready to hear any potential solutions for this? What should I keep listening? I've started doing that, I've started being like, do you want a vent or do you want me to give solutions? And often they'll go, I want a vent. So even then I was like, imagine if you,
Starting point is 01:03:34 no, no, no, no, no, such and such, you can't fix this. You gave me an idea. I love that. Which was maybe what would be good for our special one who has written in is to maybe talk to some older women, maybe some who have had kids or have, or not had kids and experienced the menopause and have had like, basically had to take the idea
Starting point is 01:03:56 of becoming a parent or not becoming a parent a lot more seriously, because when I was 23, I couldn't, I mean, I'm 32, I still think, if I got pregnant tomorrow, I'd be'd be like a sad victim of teenage pregnancy. Like literally. I'd be like oh how terrible. Even though I've had two kids when she was my age I'd be like oh so sad. But like I you know when I was 23 that wouldn't you couldn't have been a reality that I could very much understand. Maybe the best that I could do is like, oh, this is kind of a shit situation for my friend here. Anyway, I have experienced this too. I wouldn't have been able to say this.
Starting point is 01:04:32 So maybe talking to an older woman. And the also thing that we're picking up on this is not just fertility anxiety. She says her relationship with the body is worsened and she can't help but feel like it's broken. We touched on that, but undesirable. And that's what she says she's also tried to discuss with her female friends. And I think that comes up a lot because again, if you're trying to talk about being undesirable, your friends go, no, you're so gorgeous. You're so gorgeous. You're amazing. You've got the sexiest ovaries I've ever seen.
Starting point is 01:04:56 What do you actually want to hear? When you come to your friends, you say, I feel undesirable and my relationship with my body is really getting bad. What do you actually want to hear? What do you want them to do? Is there anything you can say? Sorry guys, I do want to hit that unbuff flag. I'm gonna keep it 100. I'd be like livid if it was like, that is a solution of prejudice. If someone was just like, oh no, of course you feel bad.
Starting point is 01:05:13 Like you exist under like, you know, white supremacist patriarchy and you're like, and I'm hot. Exactly. I'm gonna use you. But I think it's more difficult because I think if her friends went unbuff, she has this extra layer of worry because now she has a diagnosed condition. And even if nothing has changed that she's aware of in how she looks, or her relationship
Starting point is 01:05:33 has changed because the awareness that she has a condition that she didn't know she had before, it does change the way you think about yourself. Because like you said, even if that's affecting you in a certain way, but it might be affecting in the ways you're thinking, it's still changing the way you're thinking about yourself. And it's still making it, and when people go like, oh, but no, this is your perception, but this is how you're actually seen, and this is how you're actually moving around the world.
Starting point is 01:05:53 You go, you don't understand, you don't have this. 100%, there are all kinds of symptoms that come with PCOS as well, like hot flushes and weight gain, and they're things that she will be navigating that her friends won't be. I'm sure she has like TikTok and there's lots of people on TikTok who talk about stuff. That's actually one good thing that TikTok can do.
Starting point is 01:06:12 But it's like when you're the people around you directly, this is the question, when people around you directly don't have the same experience as you and can move in the world in a different way, how do you still relate to them? Because we all do it, we all manage it. Yeah, I mean the thing is, is that like sometimes you just have to like take the L sometimes.
Starting point is 01:06:31 Sometimes you just have to go like this is kind of- I'm gonna listen to you being like, you seriously, it's really fucking with me, you're like take the L. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not talking about that. Talk it up for the game. I'm talking about like feeling really different
Starting point is 01:06:40 and at odds with people. Sometimes you just have to go, well, that's the price you pay for connection, is sometimes coming into contact and going, we're actually really different and at odds with people. Sometimes you just have to go, well, that's the price you pay for connection, is sometimes coming into contact and going, we're actually really different. That's the price you pay. You can't always be the same as the people around you or have the same experiences. In a different way, right? Of all my friends, I'm the only one who people want to murder because of my job. People want to murder my friends because they're annoying. For me, it's just my job. I'm the only one who experiences that thing and so sometimes I talk to them
Starting point is 01:07:07 It's like they don't always understand my partner doesn't always understand But I would rather be annoyed by they're not understanding a bit because it's not happening to them than to feel isolated And deal with it on my own. That's what I mean, but I take the L. She feels she's talking to them But she still feels isolated. I want to say it's the audience Let's start with the audience. We got some hands Anyone know what, but she still feels isolated. I want to throw it to the audience. Let's throw it to the audience. Anyone got something they want to say on this? We've got some hands. Anyone?
Starting point is 01:07:28 No one wants to give some advice? Oh, we've got one at the back. Have we got a mic? Are there any mics? There we go. Keep your hand up. I hope this is good advice. Don't let me down.
Starting point is 01:07:36 Also, you know how you were saying, like, you want to hear that, like, your buff when you're, like, not feeling great about yourself? Oh, I want to hear where I'm buff in any context any Right now deadly serious. I was once I'm freaking out to my sister about it I was like, I'm gonna feel really unattractive to that. My sister went. Well, you've got a great personality She said she said stop complaining she said cuz if you keep complaining you're gonna get what you don't want to hear Yeah, she's not gonna reinforce you. She was like my you've got a great personality Okay what you don't want to hear from me. She's not going to reinforce you. She was like, well yeah, you've got a great personality. Okay, has our advice giver got the mic? Yeah. Great, kick off. Okay, just following on from what Ash was saying, I wonder if instead of
Starting point is 01:08:15 maybe looking for some of that mutual support that actually there are communal groups, especially around PCOS, who would have an understanding of the symptoms that they're going through at different stages in life, that maybe they could reach out to them. So maybe their local community are not going to have that experience, but actually maybe it's about finding and identifying with other people. That's great advice. I think it's great advice. Fantastic advice. We should be paying you. I don't know why I didn't think about that. Do you want to get up here? There's someone in the front row who has some advice. It's fantastic advice. We should be paying you. I don't know why I didn't think about that. Do you want to get up here? There's somebody in the front row who has some advice. Front row?
Starting point is 01:08:47 Wait, wait, wait, wait. We've got a mic. We've got a mic. We've got a thank you very much special one who just gave that great communal advice. Yeah. Yeah, give a clap. Come on, everyone. Hi.
Starting point is 01:08:55 Okay. So a few years ago, I was diagnosed with a chronic illness. Fine now, but at the time, it felt really isolating. So I can understand her experience. What I'd say was the best thing was to actually, instead of feeling like I was further away on an island or floating away from the island, instead I would try and create connections with those friends. And what mattered always to me was the ways they then tried to connect to me to be like,
Starting point is 01:09:24 what foods can I provide you with? If I'm coming over for dinner, what thing can I do for you? How can I look for your needs that might be different? So leaning into those connections still, but obviously looking for those groups as well. I think that's great advice. That's really good advice. Focusing on the things that bind us and the ways they want to care for you and show up for you. Because you can't control like how people... Should we take one more hand?
Starting point is 01:09:48 One more? Do we have time for one more? Yeah, we've got one more. Yeah, go on, one more. Come on. We always indulge talking one way on the actual other pod, so we may as well indulge the special ones now. I just wanted to say that we almost take for granted this relationship with ourselves and
Starting point is 01:10:02 it's something that we have to build. Because if we get into a new relationship with a guy or a girl, we take time to get to know them, but we expect that we will just know our body and we will not change. Actually, we're evolving all the time and when something like this happen, actually it's time to stop and look at yourself,
Starting point is 01:10:20 speak to some specialist and get the facts and then sort of decide, okay, where do I go with with myself who do I need to sort of you know figure this out and sometimes our friends will be some of those people you know so many people are affected by different fertility issues you know there's so many stuff that's sort of taboo that we do not talk about like miscarriage you know affairs this time the other that we can't speak to people about and it can be really quite isolating. So how do we sort of start having these sort of sisterhood, brotherhood, start talking to people that are close to us about the things that really matter to us and yeah,
Starting point is 01:10:55 just get to know ourselves as we evolve, as we change, go through the menopause, have a baby, lose a baby, blah blah blah blah blah, you know, adopt a dog, all manner of things, you know, because there's different ways to be a mum without carrying one as well. So it's not the end of the world. Sensational advice. Why is it weird? That has just been instantly internalised, the fact, you know, like, the relationship with other people, you have to build the relationship with your body again.
Starting point is 01:11:23 All three of those answers, they cleared off, man. Oh, gosh. They cleared us up. Out of a job. We're gonna go to the next, the last dilemma. All right, you wanna read it out, Ash? I would love to read it out. Prepare yourselves, we're gonna do this again
Starting point is 01:11:34 because you guys were amazing on that. That was fantastic. You did such a good reading the first one that I now feel a little bit illiterate. Dear If I Speak, I've reconnected with a school friend of over 15 years who moved back to London after travelling around South America and then living in Colombia for the past four years, who returned having broken up with his girlfriend of one and a half years and
Starting point is 01:11:54 is now hoping to start a music production course. He's living at home to save up money, I'm a teacher looking to buy a flat and settle down into a committed relationship. We spent about a month seeing each other both with with mutual friends and one-on-one, and built up a really strong friendship, walking each other home, cooking for each other, late-night texts, etc. Yeah, you're not friends. The attraction was there in the sweaty summer heat, only intensifying feelings. I brought this up when no moves were made for this month, hoping to find out what was in his head.
Starting point is 01:12:28 When he said he liked me, but couldn't manage a relationship so soon after this breakup, I was devastated. What I had read as the beginnings of something was instead of friendship, and for him, an antidote to the pangs of newly single loneliness. He said we had a strong emotional connection and there could be something down the line but didn't want to keep me waiting. Very triggering. Not for me. I've seen through that.
Starting point is 01:12:52 He asked if I wanted something casual, which I didn't, and expressed his frustration at not being able to easily meet people for this. We agreed we'd be happy to continue the friendship, but I worry that feelings won't disappear slash boundaries will get blurred and this may end in more hurt. I really cherish the friendship, but worry that I'll struggle to move on in the quest for a long-term partnership. What do you guys think? I know exactly what I think. I know exactly what I think. This special one has something very valuable. They know exactly what they want and this person has quickly shown them that they not what they want. They want a committed relationship They've said I want XYZ this person said I don't want any of that and I can't meet your needs get the fuck out Like why this also the the the guy being like he's
Starting point is 01:13:38 Expressing his frustration not being able to easily meet something people for something casual He doesn't want something casual you could easily meet someone for something casual if He doesn't want something casual. You could easily meet someone for something casual if you wanted to. What he actually wants is a blurred lines, emotional affair, with sometimes maybe accidentally sleeping with each other, oopsie daisy. Special one. Special one.
Starting point is 01:13:56 You have enough self-awareness to literally list out what you want. You want a committed fucking relationship. You want the things of cooking with someone and doing all that stuff, but you know that what he's able to offer is not it. Yeah. Well, he wants that, but without you being his girlfriend. Yeah, he doesn't want me. He literally says, you're not happy to continue the friendship
Starting point is 01:14:13 because it wasn't a fucking friendship. Yeah. What do you reckon? Um, that. But literally that. And I was going to say that, I think, in terms of her, if she wants to preserve, I mean, as you said, I don't really think it was a friendship, but I don't think it's impossible
Starting point is 01:14:28 for them to be friends. I'm actually, my one skill set outside of writing is being friends with exes. Really? Yeah, I know that always like gets quite- This is not an ex. That's true. Not an ex. Do I have any situationship friend?
Starting point is 01:14:40 Yeah, I do. Yeah. So I'm across the spectrum. Exes, people that I had weird romantic connections with that didn't like become anything. I'm quite good at like maintaining those relationships as friends and I think it's because I'm very boundaried and I'm very fucking good at drawing a line under something. So I would say that I don't think that it's a complete loss in terms of them preserving a relationship.
Starting point is 01:15:05 I do think that if she wants them to be friends, she probably has to stop speaking to him for about four months. Yes. And... Maybe forever. She can also, yeah. I also love you writing a prescription.
Starting point is 01:15:17 You're like, stop talking for four months. I'm like, this is my bombing. No contact for four months. Serious questions, no anything about a situationship. I'm like, right, let me tell you. I have the answers, let me tell you. The 12-step program. Quite literally.
Starting point is 01:15:31 But I do think that sometimes, I don't know, I think that sometimes we live in a culture, like, we live in a throwaway culture, and I think that people can know each other very intimately, and once it doesn't work out in one way, we're taught that it cannot work out in any other way, and I don't actually agree with that. He doesn't sound like a level of fuckboy that means that she can't pursue a friendship with
Starting point is 01:15:52 him. I think she just needs to not be around him drunk and I think that she needs to not speak to him for a sustained period of time and I do think that they can reconnect and probably be buddies. I reckon. Maybe buddies but the things that is part of this friendship that she's written here, which is like a strong, really strong friendship, working at the home, cooking for each other, late night texts. She used to cut all that shit out.
Starting point is 01:16:13 You were seeing, all about walking each other home. You can see him at the pub. I mean, like what they had is an emotional affair. 100% right. 100% without coming. 100%. We don't know what those're saying in text for about. No, she would say. Okay, she would say, she would say.
Starting point is 01:16:28 I trust her to be honest. I mean, look, I've been in this situation before, I've been in this exact situation before and actually we did turn it into a really solid and strong friendship that like- Did you have a sexual relationship or not though? We did. They didn't.
Starting point is 01:16:42 I think that's what's important. They didn't pop the chain. No, no, I think you're placing too much importance on sex. No. Because actually, it's not the sex. It's not the sex that you're thinking about. It's a moment of acknowledging what's actually going on and having it all be out in the open and the sort of mutual recognition of this is how we feel. You can have sex with someone and still never have that conversation
Starting point is 01:17:04 and I know it because I did it for years. What I think is this is that you can have a friendship and you can have a boundary friendship and you can have one which is very nutritious and good. It takes both of you to have met someone else. Oh. It takes both of you to have met someone else because if one of you is available, there will always be the other one thinking, you know, or you'll be thinking, you'll still see each other as an option. Whereas when you've both met someone else,
Starting point is 01:17:32 you can then be friends. I think the last thing I would say, because I'm really interested in hearing from the audience, is this. One of the most toxic things I ever heard, but that was fucking true, is that like, if what you want is commitment, you're either dating to break up or you're dating for commitment. Tell them we heard this. Didn't we talk about this in the episode?
Starting point is 01:17:51 If you want to get married, you're either dating to break up or you're dating to marry. This is coming on the new episode as well. So you'll hear this in full. Look, I think it's fucking true. And it took me a stupid amount of time to learn that. And I'd had like a few, I call them like, you know, car crashes, but they were just relationships with, which like was stupid. And so after a few in a row, I was like, I've got no one to blame but myself.
Starting point is 01:18:14 I've got no one to blame but myself. I want love. Drag me, I'm like triggered right now. I'm like, yeah, not sure if I'm ready to hear this. I want love, and I think that I can find love in not-love places. So whose fault is that, him or me? Me!
Starting point is 01:18:29 If you have the list of the things you want, and you're seeing, and this person's saying, I can't give them to you, and you're saying, you can't give them to me, why are you looking at them? Then what else is there more to it? Why are you in the trough? It's so true.
Starting point is 01:18:39 Because what it is often is abandonment issues. Yeah, of course. It's abandonment issues and going, well, if I just hang around long enough, they'll change their mind. They won't. Because what I need to complete me is to feel chosen. And then you keep putting yourself in situations
Starting point is 01:18:54 where you don't get chosen. And in fact, I want people to think about all the times they've rejected someone and that person keeps coming back to them and how you feel about that person. That's how that other person feels about you. Right. Let's go to the audience. That is facturing.
Starting point is 01:19:07 Oh, oh, it's disdain all the way. Let's go to the audience. He's got some advice. Hands up. You're telling me people don't have more opinion on situationships? Oh no, there's a confident armor. Situationship, opinion in the back. Okay, I just want to open by saying that men will literally go to South America and start a music production company instead of going to a therapist to get over their breakup. Women will do that too. All genders will do that. But it leads me to... Imagine if Beryl had gone to therapy instead of making dance music. It would have changed from UK music for the worse. I think sometimes men shouldn't do
Starting point is 01:19:42 therapy. And do music production for the worst. I think sometimes men shouldn't do therapy. And do music production courses. Maybe Fred again should have done therapy. I mean maybe the music will be... Sorry, sorry, sorry. Special one, go on. Okay. Well, one, I think it's interesting that this comes after a previous breakup on his behalf and I think that there's something about him outsourcing the emotional labour that his ex-girlfriend was doing in that relationship. Yes. I've gone through it too. Great picture.
Starting point is 01:20:08 Yeah, so I guess I would say to the listener to think about what work she was doing and whether she wants to continue doing that. And also the second half of what I want to say is that, you know, if he is okay with having this relationship with her where she feels unfulfilled and she has directly communicated to him that she's not getting everything that she wants from their interactions and he continues to seek those interactions out. You are with a man that is okay with you being unfulfilled and you're with a man that is okay with you not feeling whole.
Starting point is 01:20:39 And if you think about that, maybe you'll be okay with not seeing him for four months. That's all. Feed me Seymour. That was incredible. Where were you in my twenties? That and rise. Also, that just applies to everything. If you've expressed explicitly to someone why you're unfulfilled by something and not
Starting point is 01:20:52 in like a, you need, I don't know, get me an Uber every time, why you're unfulfilled, and they say, like a, you need a, I don't know, get me an Uber every time. Like, why you're unfulfilled and they say, okay, well, you're gonna remain that way. That person does not give a fuck. I needed you in 2017. We need you now. Is when I needed you. Need you on the podcast. Okay, anyone else?
Starting point is 01:21:15 Anyone got any situationship perspectives? No? None? All right, does anyone think that you can have a romantic, blurry, boundary friendship and that's fine and you should just sort of see where it goes. No.
Starting point is 01:21:30 You're all saying no, but you've all done it and some of you probably still are. That's why we're saying no. Some of you probably still are and you're like, no, that's so toxic. Anyway, I hope he calls me. So I think we've got to wrap up. So we've got to say thank you, Steve.
Starting point is 01:21:44 Thank you so much. Thank you guys. Thank you for having me. Next episode is out on Tuesday. I think that's all we've got to plug for now. Yeah so we've got to plug for now but thank you so much it's been so lovely seeing you in real life. And listening to you who are wiser than us. Remember, standards everyone. Thank you, bye!

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