If I Speak - 50: The return of the slur

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

After hearing the R-word on a comedy podcast, Moya offers an intrusive thought about the limits of language policing. Plus: what to do about a horrible housemate. Send in your questions for If I Speak’s birthday AMA episode on 18th February! [e-mail] Music by Matt Huxley.

Hello! We are so back! I'm Moira McLean, this is If I Speak With Me, it's slightly under the weather. Flem Monster. Flem Monster. What's the name? The Flem Monster Sarker. It's very nice to be back and even more excitingly, our one year anniversary is coming up, our paper year. Onth of February. It will be a whole 365 days since the very first premiere, If I Speak, and we are planning an Ask Me Anything.

There is no question too dumb, no question too deranged, that we won't at least read it out, even if we coyly demur. So if you've got questions for me and Moia, send them to if I speak at navaramedia.com. That's if I speak at navaramedia.com. You can also DM us. I think I'm going to put something on my Instagram being like, we're doing an ask me anything. I'm collecting questions. Ask me anything. Because people do love to ask me anything. How many of the responses are going to be, do you sell feet pics? Do you think? Um Actually, none. People, my feet are not good.

My feet have suffered a great hardship in recent years. They've, they're not doing that well. I'm not gonna go into details. I'm not gonna go into details. But yeah, I don't have the best feet. We talked about this before where you were on that feet site and you got like four stars and I got like three. Five stars, please. Five stars, sorry, yeah.

Five stars, you're five stars. How dare you? How dare you rob me of a star? The foot fetish community have been very supportive. I tried to undermine your feet. This is all about you shit, but it's all about feet. Anyway, please ask us questions, give us questions. Ash, do you have any updates since we last talked

before we get into the other questions? I don't know, because ask us questions, give us questions. Ash, do you have any updates since we last talked before we get into the other questions? I don't know because like I said, the last seven days have just been in a mucusy haze. So I cannot remember if anything of note has happened. Although I ate haggis over the weekend, that was exciting. Do you know what's so funny? You in London had more of a Burns night than me in Glasgow, because I was I was meant to be in London for a party

and I got stuck because of the storm Eowyn, which was totally fine. But I just demurred all Burns night plans. I'd been invited, very kindly invited to do and also wouldn't have probably felt like I should go yet. I don't know if I'm, you know, Glasgow enough to really deserve my place at the Burns Night table. So I did not do anything,

but you actually had a Burns Night. Yeah, there was a Burns Night in my house, but I was sick, so I just hid in my room all night. And I was saying before we went live that I was like Eleanor of Aquitaine in the Lion in winter. And people just had to like come upstairs to pay homage to the sick old lady before returning down to like festivities. Comparing gifts. Okay you have

questions for me? I do have questions for you in the grand tradition of Condé Nast 73 questions. We've deducted 70 from the total so here's three. Question one in honor of the cold weather. from the total so here's three. Question one in honor of the cold weather, radiator socks or radiator pants? Neither. I don't put anything in radiator except my towel. So also I'm so bloody fed up of layering. I thought this this morning as I pulled on my tights, my double socks, all my, I'm fed up of layering. I'm so bored of it. I don't like winter and this proves that I'm not a good dresser because in winter, I'm just like, what am I going, I don't know how many fits to wear.

I can't pull a fit off. Like, oh, it's just jumper over jumper again. Oh, it's just not some more layering. I think you look, I mean, you know, to describe for the audience, I was wearing like a black jumper with like a white, a white roll neck underneath it. And I was like, oh, she looks like a sexy nun.

I do look like a sexy nun, but it's not like getting a filth. But anyway, I don't, I don't use the radiator to dry stuff. I use the radiator to dry my, oh no, what am I talking about? I use the radiator to dry my towel. That's it. And then everything else I have drying racks, which I place my wet clothes on.

So it's a system. I personally love a radiator sock. I think on a cold morning pulling on a pre-warmed sock. Yeah that's genius but like I get dressed as soon as I get up so. I see. Not post shower? No so I shower at night and then I do a bits wash in the morning which is quicker unless there's been something that's prevented me showering at night, which because I will do an early morning shower,

but I'm a night shower and then a little pussy rub, a little face rub in the morning, just to freshen up those bits and then we're off. It's just much quicker. Efficiency. How many showers a day? Wow, no, my ex would hate that. My ex would really hate that, I'm afraid,

but that's good dedication. We all wash our legs. It's because I find it very calming. It's very calming for me. Okay, question two. What micro trend have you embraced? Oh, so many. What, recently or in general?

Recently, recently. What micro trend have I embraced recently? Ah, um... I tried out an eyeliner look the other day that looked fucking terrible. Every time I'm like, come back, okay, so, you know, makeup beating your face. My face actually doesn't suit lots of makeup. And I still haven't accepted this. I still haven't accepted that I look best when I'm wearing like minimal amounts. Like if I beat my face, if I was to ever wear full foundation

or go full heavy on the eyeliner, I look shit. It looks terrible, it just doesn't suit my face. Maybe something to do with the roundness, I don't know. But every time I wear heavy eyeliner, it just looks bad. And I don't even think it's the application anymore. I can do the application, it's just, it's not giving the cat eye that the girlies are giving. It's giving, I would, I would say like it's giving drag queens, but drag queens have the best beats of the industry. So that's completely wrong. It's

giving like botched, it looks terrible. So I tried that. Other micro trends, like they're just ongoing ones. You know, I slick my hair back, I wear a lot of rings. I have things in my cartilage, clip-ons in my ear, et cetera, et cetera. So, oh my God, I nearly did this. I tried to buy a rugby shirt on Vinted. Ah! Luckily the person rejected my offer, so I was saved by the gods, but that was probably the-

So a rugby shirt or a rugby sweater? They call it a rugby shirt, like the ones that in trend now and it's you know the ones with the big collars and the stripes and it's like no no you don't need this you actually don't need this but that was my it looks a bit super hoops what's your micro trend and being ill I suppose is my latest micro trend. I don't know. I don't know if I'm a particularly trendy person. And that's cool. That's very good.

That's the coolest thing of all. Not joining on the micro trend. I just, I can't keep up with things. Yeah, it's also silly. It's just, I have a bit of a shopping addiction and that's my real Achilles heel. So I have to constantly battle that every day when I'm feeling down.

Anyway, next question. All right, final question. Would you read out the last text you sent not to the If I Speak production team? Yeah, why not? All right. The last text I sent was, like humans completely mooting the luck,

which will make no sense to anyone. But I'll tell you what it's about. It's about, I sent a video, a TikTok to Sean, my friend Sean, this morning, which was about how people in countries where Year of the Dragon is like very evocative, like East Asian countries, because Year of the Dragon,

if you're born in Year of the Dragon, you're meant to be like really lucky. But this video is like, theyocative, like East Asian countries. Because you have the dragon, if you're born in the dragon, you're meant to be really lucky. But this video is like, they've actually fucked the luck because by trying to engineer destiny, it's like in Singapore, for example, there's a 12% higher birth rate. Maybe it's 12% higher birth rate. And because there's so many kids born in that cohort,

they actually have worse educational and financial outcomes than kids born in other years because the resources don't stretch that far even with like the Singaporean civil service which is the best in the world and they put more resource side it still is not enough to support the massive spike in birth because all these parents trying to get their kids to be you have dragon babies but because they're trying to engineer it it's actually completely reversed the sort of suspicion superstition about being lucky and those kids don't fare as well. But maybe they'll go on to do like great things

in other walks of life, but it's not in the traditional educational or financial sense. That's a lesson, you don't try and engineer luck. It defeats the whole point. Defeats the whole point. Yeah. Okay.

Would you read your last text? Hang on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, like it's okay. There are lots of like two word text There's one which says it us in response to a little thing that a friend sent to me Which is about not wanting to move when your cat is on you There's one sent to a friend going. Are you not around this weekend weekends? Probably increasingly hard as book stuff ramps up

We're trying to make sure that we've made enough time to go to yoga together And then the one after that is in the house group chat. I'm just going to have some leftovers because I'm knackered. Sorry, I'll cook later in the week. I mean, it's really boring, really boring. I don't have a lot of like, I guess like creative or like ideas flowing text conversations like for me like texting is like quite practical voice notes is the sort of like Imaginative deranged or emotional most of most of my texting is practical You just happen to catch me on the day when I'd actually sent something that was interesting

To someone and not yesterday because if it was yesterday, it would have been like I can't read these out. These are too tea spilling. Sorry Anyway, I- We should change our recording day. Well, we did. We already did. That's you have the dragon luck, baby. I'm actually a pig. You have the dragon luck.

I'm actually a pig. ["Dreams of a Dragon"] Okay, I have an intrusive thought, I guess I would call it, or rather an intrusive concern. An intrusive thought, I guess I would call it, or rather an intrusive concern. An intrusive concern, hit me with your intrusive concern. Right, so this is what I wanna bring to the table this week. Slurs are back, right? So I've talked a little bit about this on Instagram

because I guess I was tipped over the edge by this podcast I was listening to. But I wanted to bring it here. I wanted to bring it to the table where I think we can have a better discussion. So I was listening to this podcast by two comedians. They're Irish guys. They live in London. They're like 26 and 31, I want to say. So bang on our age group. 31 I want to say so bang on our age group and They identify as progressive I would say and in episode after episode they kept using the R word and gay as a pejorative like willy-dilly alongside all these random lazy racist jokes about like black and Asian people which afterwards they do this really annoying thing. They make the joke like, oh, oh, oh, we fucked it.

We fucked it. And it's like, you're embarrassing. This is really embarrassing. And so it was this very weird game of halves when I was listening to it, because you might be like, why did you keep listening? Firstly, I was doing it for a bit of research about what young men are like tuning into, what the spheres are. And secondly, I was just like, some of it was really funny, you know, they'd one minute they'd be doing this very sharp bit about like soldier f and then the next minute they'd just be going

like musical theaters gay. Which technically, demographically, yes, but in the way they were saying it, no. You know? So the funny thing was, they were at the same time ridiculing right-wing bro podcasters and figures like Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson. They do this very extended impression of Jordan Peterson, like watching Shrek and being annoyed about like, donkeys with dragons. So it's funny. That sounded a little bit like a Southern Belle, like the way you did. I can't do it. I can't. Donkeys with dragons. My it's fun. That sounded a little bit like a southern bell, like the way you do it.

I can't do it. I can't do accents as well, we know this. And they were making fun of these attitudes that the riot holds towards like race and women, but then minutes later they'd be making some like ironic joke about how women are cumbuckets or something. And the last episode I listened to, which is my final one, I think, because it was just like, I can't do this anymore. They were actually made to address why they used gay and the R word so freely. And it was funny because the person

who kind of forced them to address it was, themselves a comedian who has been accused of extensive emotional abuse. And I read the book of their ex-girlfriend and detailed it and they're like you know a generation older I would say or micro generation older and he was like are these words in use again? Like I felt really weird hearing them like we don't use those words anymore and it was like crazy this guy was calling this out you know and these guys when they've like made to address why they felt it was okay to use these words they one literally said well the R word's back you know and it's but it's fine because we And these guys, when they've made to address why they felt it was okay to use these words,

they one literally said, well, the R word's back, and it's fine because we don't use it to describe disabled people. And the other host was like, when it comes to gay, I actually don't like using it as a pejorative because my brother's gay. But still, when the other one's using it all the time as a pejorative, he's laughing along and being like,

oh, just not saying anything? And it's this weird culture. They had this extended discussion, it was so fascinating, where the guy who'd called it out was just like, oh, you know, like, making out like he probably would go along with the words and he didn't want to say anything because it was like, he's on a podcast and you're meant to laugh along. And then that other guy revealed, oh, yeah, I don't actually like it when he uses gay that much because my brother's gay. And then the other guy revealed oh yeah I don't actually like it when he uses gay that much because my brother's gay and then the third host was like but you had Christmas said the f-word when you were singing Christmas fairy tale in New York with your brother and he was like but he's there and it's this weird

sort of like justification for which words you could use in what context really fascinating dynamic but these guys embody a wider tendency that I'm seeing so over Christmas someone very close to me, a young woman, very much identified as a progressive, just casually tossed out the R word, like just said it about something. And it really scared me. Like it really woke me up to how insidious this social creep has become. Because language matters. I'm sorry, language really fucking matters. It does. And the right have waged a very long

and successful campaign, aided at times, I think, by the left, that portrays a concern about language in terms like this as boring, pointless, a distraction. There's an article that's just come out in New York Magazine, which is all about the cultural tendency of the right, a topic we've covered before, Ash, which I think you weren't that into at the time. No, I just didn't think it had anything to do with the trousers.

I'm going to come back to those fucking trousers because it has everything to do with trousers. But this- I sound like RFK Junior at the moment as well, talking about the ascendancy of the right, Jesus Christ. But this article, there's one line where it says the set of these new cool, what I see is these new cool young people who are all very hardline conservatives, don't identify as Republicans, but identify as conservatives. And what their most visible political stance is, this article says, is a reaction to what

they see as the left's puritanical obsession with policing language and talking about identity. And then it's just basically list after list of people being like, I'm so glad I can say the R word now, I'm so glad I can say the F word, I'm so glad I can say all these slurs, make all these jokes about Mexicans. That's basically the bulk of the article in their main political stance.

And I don't think being concerned about the return of using gay as a casual pejorative during huge rollback of LGBTQ rights is boring or poignant. I don't think it's virtually singling to be concerned. And I don't think objecting to the R word, you know, becoming synonymous with stupid or dumb again, when there's a simultaneous massive push on eugenic strains of thinking, should be characterized as silly or nitpicking. I think these things are actually very serious signs of how far along the process we are to this

new shape, this new epoch of dominant right-wing thought. And I want to talk about why people are going back to them again because when I brought this up on Instagram people messaged me saying like some of their theories were as well like people are becoming more comfortable saying stuff they've always said in private etc etc and that's not my experience but i'm wondering am i just really sheltered with the people that i hang out about and i want to know why people think it's you know why are ironic slurs accepted again am i overacting does this matter and also how do what do we do about it without playing into that trope of being you know policing language policing and not fun which the right have so successfully sold to us.

What do you think? So I think I disagree with you in some ways and I agree with you in others. I agree with you that there is a return of the slur. The slurs are back and that the Trump victory, back and that the Trump victory, the so-called vibe shift that it's initiated, a lot of it centers around the idea that we can use these terms that a censorious liberal left or corporate HR culture had tried to stamp out. So I agree with you in that way.

I agree with you that language matters. Where maybe I disagree with you is how much and in what ways? And I think that I also disagree with you that this idea of the censorious liberal left that's obsessed with language is just a figment of the right's imagination. I never said it was a figment. I don't think it's a figment at all. I want to point that out. You were talking about it in terms of like that they've so successfully conjured it up. I think there's truth in it. I said it was aided by the left and what I meant was it's been aided by the left

occasionally doing that. Well, I also don't think it's just occasionally. I think it's been a really big part of liberal left-wing discourse and subsequently become a big part of left culture because of the sort of proximity to liberalism. I think that liberal, DEI, corporate HR stuff achieved some good things. I think it's good that we went from people having to endure slurs in workplace settings

to norms emerging that that's bad and you can't do it. I think that's a good thing. But there's a journalist called Talman Joseph Smith who writes for the New York Times. And it was just a tweet that he fired off but thought was really well framed, which is all the advancements of so-called woke have been, you know, cultural and, you know, in terms

of representation. There weren't any material gains for people from minority identity groups. The backlash, however, is pretty goddamn material. And so I think that if we're taking stock of the moment that we're in looking at what's coming next, you also have to look at the failures of what came before. I think that woke politics, by which I mean, an emphasis on language, prioritizing minority identity over class, I think that that's been a horrendous failure. And I also think that the, you you know with the backlash that it's generated

You've really got to look and go that wasn't worth it the gains which were made were not worth the backlash which has been generated and you have to go back and look at the the strategic errors and the sort of cultural bad vibes that it created And I think that we were defensive of because we were so scared of giving any ground to the right. Well, look what's happened. The right's taken the ground anyway, and we weren't honest about what the mistakes were. I am not someone who uses the R word. I'm not someone who uses gay as a pejorative outside of very particular circles of friends, which include gay people who say it.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, back up. Give us an example. Okay, right, so I've got some friends who are gay who will say themselves like that, so gay is a nod and a wink, which is like they don't mean it. Yeah, but would you say it as well? With those people only.

Okay. And that's not something where I would go, ah, well I'm repeating it elsewhere, and it's fine because my friend said that, I could. It's very much within that context and I wouldn't take it outside of it. Similarly, there's a way in which me, my housemate and my husband, both of whom are white, will make jokes about race, where I'm like, don't say that outside this house.

This is a product of our friendship and the trust that we have amongst ourselves. If you get beaten up because of this, in Tottenham, I'm not standing up for you. Like, that's on you. And so I think that there's a sort of, you know, lived flexibility that lots of people will intuitively understand. The problem with, I think, how the discourse played out and how it would play out in workplace settings is that there was very little room for flex. It was, you can never say these things. And if you do in any context, or if you,

if you did and you haven't sufficiently groveled, you're going to be hauled over coals. That's a, that's a bad vibe to create. And I think that the, you know, obsession with language policing very much was an obsession to the point where things that people couldn't say weren't just outright slurs but there was more and more language being pulled into it and I think that a moment that showed me how ridiculous it was all getting was when I saw pro-Israel advocates using all the same techniques around language policing in order to close down space, to articulate solidarity

with the Palestinian cause or, you know, just be left wing. And that's a moment where you go, these are not rules or ways of thinking, which are good for society. Like now I'm on the receiving end of it. I can really see some of the things that I was doing wrong. Does that, does that make sense to you? I realized that I was just completely rambling and part of it is because I'm 80% mucus But the 20% brain power that was powering

Yes, you see where I'm coming from the bad culture created by the left I it makes sense I think but I think this is also a tendency that we again have, which is when we have these discussions, we tend to focus on what the left have done wrong a lot of the time, which is saying, you know, we're talking about the tone policing of the left. I agree with you. You assumed that I didn't agree with you. I totally agree with you that the tone policing of the left has been off putting.

And that's why it was able to draw, like, that's why it made some, I don't want to say unwelcoming, it's the wrong word, I don't wanna say unwelcoming, it's the wrong word, but at times it was unwelcoming, and also the right have managed to make a big thing about it. Or even people who don't identify on the right, people who just knee-jerk, don't, no one likes being policed or being preached to. This is a thing, right?

People don't like- And also cry-bullying. Yeah. People don't like cry-bullying, and I think that the language policing was sometimes the vehicle for cry bullying. Like, can I give you an example of something crazy that happened?

So this was like an organizers conference that happened, I don't know, this maybe two or three years ago. And they were doing these icebreaker games where you had to pretend to be a kitchen implement and everyone else had to guess what it was. So, you know, you'd do your best at sort of like acting out the action of a spatula and people have to guess you a spatula. This game initiated a complete breakdown of the entire conference because someone said that the kitchen

implements being chosen were emblematic of white supremacy and classism because not everyone would have these kitchen implements. And then the person who was acting out the salad spinner got very upset because they were like, but I'm from a working class family and we had a salad spinner. And this entire conference stopped functioning because of the controversy around the salad spinner.

There are so many instances of something like this happening where sensitivity was at such an extreme level that nothing else could happen. And so I think't, I think that it's not just, oh, your focus was on the wrong place. I think that it was a way of putting the brakes on anything productive happening and allowing the most dysfunctional personalities to wield an awful lot of power because they could dress it up as a kind of woundedness. And I think that that's what the backlash is to.

And I think that we were in denial about that and pretending that it wasn't a big problem when it was. Well, this is the thing though, I agree with you about the backlash. I agree with you about the causes of it. I think what I'm trying to ask instead is about these, where are the red lines of like what we should be making space for? Is it silly for me, and I don't think it is personally,

but is it silly for me to be worrying about the casual return of what I would say are very loaded slurs and not just, and I'm not talking about, you know, the hard right or the people who now are aligned with the hard right who feel comfortable using the N word at all times because then they're kind of a like a cause that I have no say or ability to influence at this point in time. I'm talking about people within the orbit that I inhabit who might not identify, you know, as radical left or political, but they hold left-wing values or progressive values. And the person who said the R word around me at Christmas, just very casually, like

this is someone who definitely, definitely identifies as progressive and as you know, very like talks a lot about decriminalization and feminism and all the, all these other things like, and is themselves a person who could, I don't think they think of themselves as this, but definitely could be classed as disabled, but they were there using the word as a pejorative, just about like their own functionality and someone else's functionality, and not physical, just like mentally. It was used as like, oh, what a stupid moment, you know? That vibe.

And this is this podcast as well, and I talked to a lot of people about this podcast because I was like, young men, is this the venue, like is this the kind of things you're listening to? And it's the kind of podcast someone was like, oh yes, kind of like D're listening to? And it's the kind of podcast someone was like, oh yeah, it's kind of like dirt bag left bros, you know, like giving the, but the messages that are being sent out

are not of values of like empathy and kindness. It's this casual cruelty that's returned. That's what I worry about, the creep of casual cruelty. And what that means, I think that, like I'm not talking about fucking salad spinners here, and then being a reflection of class divergence, I'm talking about what I think is much more worrying, which is the return of a cruelty and a lack of empathy

and a lack of ability to, you know, like, oh, but we're not using it like that, so it doesn't mean anything. It does mean something. It means something very clearly, and you can deny that all you want. And I think the denial is a very worrying space to be in because then people get defensive

and it's like the complacency of this cruelty as well. That means something, because we're worrying less about other people and being less able to put ourselves in other people's shoes. I think that means something. I think that is important to try and combat, but the question is how?

I think you're completely right about that. I think you're completely right about that. I think you're completely right about that. I think the point that I was making is that language policing was also a vehicle for cruelty. And it was so obviously flawed. We were so defensive of those flaws, I think. And I think part of the backlash is being driven by, well, you were disingenuous about your cruelty because you were trying to dress up as a virtue.

Whereas this is just obnoxious. And at least there's an honesty to it. Now, I think you're right. There's also a deep dishonesty to it, as you've pointed out with the particular podcast that you listened to, but I think you're completely right to be. Um, worried about cruelty and, and, and worried about cruelty and worried about cruelty being held up as something taboo busting.

Well, what do you do about that? How do you change the use of language without becoming language policing? Can I read you a quick quote from this article that I think really will sharpen up as well what we're thinking, which is, this is a quote from someone. I need a sharpener. I need a sharpener.

You need a whiskey. I need a whiskey. This is a quote from someone who is very much far right influencer, runs an account, I think that's like Libs of something whatever. And they're 31 and it's the article takes great pennies to say that this woman you know she says I look like a liberal she's like a classic what we'd call gold hoops girly and she gives a quote to the the writer of this article and she says says, "'Conservatives used to be uptight, "'but the left has become the funless, sexless party.'

"'Not that the party, the right is the party "'of sex necessarily, we have fun. "'What does a conservative even look like anymore?' Sorry, you paused, I was like, is Ash still there? What does a conservative even look like anymore? No, no, no, no, no, I was listening intently. And I think this is like a really key point getting at what we're saying here,

which is like somehow A, cruelty has become so anonymous again with fun, a liberation, a freedom, and the left has become uncool, unsexy, and funless. And the question is like, how do we once again equate empathy with fun and cool because I think that's such a strong draw. At the end of this article, the writer says that he then goes, I've actually noticed that I started saying these words again, that I started doing this. And it's a really strong ending paragraph. He's like, this all the ways that and he's a gay man writing how this is this sort of like, this cultural

creep has entered his life over the summer. And he ends the thing with like, he was smoking talking about like freedom with someone like this. This is not even a Republican party, it's a conservative party. It's a party to celebrate Donald Trump's inauguration. And he's smoking and then he ends and he's like says this stuff about you know, freedom, blah, blah, blah. And then he ends with this line being, the next day I woke up sick.

And I think that's such a punchy line. It's all about like the rotting of what this does to you without you realizing it, the erosion this has on like your empathy and your kindness and how it rots your own soul. I think that's, this is, I've always said that my politics are driven by, my politics are driven by love, but they're driven by this like need to be kind

and compassionate and I might not achieve it at all times but above any ideology that is what I focus on kindness and compassion and I think I can see a massive erosion of that and it really worries me why are we gonna be fun when are we gonna be fun yeah I'm so fun I'm so is this not attractive and fun sounding I can have fun. Okay, I think there's a lot in that. I think that, you know, the right have embraced a kind of death drive and that's got more to do than just slurs. I mean, it's also the idea of drill, baby drill on a dying planet.

It's really like actually fuck this. Fuck this. There is no future. Let's just fucking like maximize extraction while we can. What's the point in being empathetic? What's the point in anything? Let's just go pedal to the metal on letting all of your intrusive thoughts win. I wrote a sub-stuck about this. The fuck it, why bother? I did write it. Fuck it, why bother? And that's become a whole political north star. And as you wrote in your sub stack,

you can see why that's appealing. Did you read it? I did. Oh my God, Ash. Sorry, sorry, carry on. You have so many books to read. I was just like, you're so busy. I didn't know you read my sub stack.

Wow. I'm a lurker. I lurk on everything. Meanwhile, I've been trying to get proof of your book for the last three months and still, still no one has given me one. It's not worth it. At Bloomsbury, where is my proof?

The hardest proof for me to get is the book of the person that I co-host a podcast with and have the number of and text all the time. Why this why is this I will make sure you get one I will make sure you go I so there's a lot in that and you can see how if you go all right we're going to say that self-discipline, restraint, curbing your tongue, all of these things don't matter anymore. You can see how there's a desire to go, yeah, like this feels like freedom. I can completely understand that. And I think that if we are able to admit that the sort of liberal idpol project was about imposing constraints on people rather than

encouraging real empathy, then I think we can get somewhere. Because empathy also has to go two ways. One of the problems with competitive victimhood, which I think was so much a feature of that left liberal it poll of the last decade or so, was that it demanded one way empathy only. And it was based on who could best present themselves as a victim. And it gave those people a license to behave with cruelty. And it was not based on kindness or compassion.

If we're honest with ourselves, if we're honest with ourselves. Because kindness and compassion sometimes means giving people a pass on things. Yeah. Right, we do it with our friends and family all the time. We've recognized that they're imperfect and we go, well, we've got to get along with you anyhow.

And more than that, have to love you anyhow whereas that idea was not only absent but treated with suspicion there was guilt by association why are you still friends with this person they're problematic in all these ways there was such derangement after Trump's victory. I mean, I remember seeing a segment on MSNBC, which is, should you go to Thanksgiving dinner if family members who voted Trump are gonna be there? And I was like, what the fuck? You can't really behave like this

when you're on the losing side. You're just gonna lose harder and worse next time. So I think that if we're looking at why is it that the values of compassion and empathy and kindness have withered, again, point of finger three pointing back at you. I think that there are ways to move forward, ways to move forward, which lean into values and dominant cultural norms, which can advance the cause of anti-racism, the fight against transphobia. And talk about slurs, not in

terms of you shouldn't say this because it makes you a bad person, or saying your intention doesn't matter. Obviously, intention and context matter a lot. But inviting empathy. So the moment that you described, which I actually don't like saying, because my brother's gay, suddenly it turns gay from a word where that word triggers the lips or marks you out as being taboo busting and turns it into a person. Now that means if you're saying that context matters, people matter, that it also gives you a little bit of flex where you could go alright like

there are some places where you know me and the people I live with making jokes about race, that's fine. There is a human context which makes that fine. It cannot exist outside of that space. Whereas the one size fits all. Never say this. If you do, it makes you a bad person. Obviously that doesn't fucking work.

Similarly, if you're thinking about, I was thinking this about trans rights when I was in the shower, and I was thinking about what are the missed opportunities of the last 10 years? And I was like, well, actually, a missed opportunity is that English culture certainly, and I can say this confidently, isn't super conformist. English culture is nowhere near as conformist as German culture, as Dutch culture. We have a strain of enjoying eccentricity and people who are not the same as everybody else. What we don't like is imposition and this is what everyone has to do even if it doesn't

affect you. And so I was like, okay, that creates some room for not everybody has to be the same. You do not have to fit into a binary and that we can enjoy that and we can celebrate that. It just sort of means that I think that if you're doing everyone in the workplace has to do pronouns, that's going to fall flat because people go, you're imposing something on me. Respecting other people's pronouns, again, a strong cultural norm that we have in this country is manners.

So if you fold respecting people's pronouns into manners, rather than this is coming down from HR and everybody has to do it, I think you end up with more success. And I think that this up with more success. And I think that this is something for us to think about in the next few years. What are the things that are culturally dominant that allow you to change some cultural and social norms

without it being sent down from on high and imposed on people and making it feel like an imposition. I think that, you know, the British celebration of nonconformity or English, certainly, I don't want to impose that on the rest of the nations, but that sort of English tradition of celebrating nonconformity and the power of manners. I think you are onto something of the manners point. I do think as well, though, there's a flip side of what you talked about before, which is that I did that it was placing restraints rather than cultivating empathy, which is such an incisive understanding of what was going on,

because you're so right. It was a superficial change. It wasn't like a deep rooted empathetic change. And in fact, if you look at the rise of the right, it's the same thing. It's like, they're just saying we're being honest. We're being masked off. They're just ripping off that very thin veneer of like politeness and very thin veneer of like, oh, we have to do this and being like, well, nothing changed underneath. We're still the same old like Cronenberg we've always been. And it's funny to me because the cycle that I was thinking about when you were talking was like, you know really restricting yourself, because obviously I think

about all things and eating, restricting yourself and eating and then absolutely binging, just gorging yourself sick. And it's interesting as well with the rye. I mean, I don't know how much of a disconnection this is but I was thinking about how this rye like body fascism is really up like the very strict parameters now that you're seeing culturally of what people expect a body to be like with women it's gonna

be very skinny with men it's very very rich like it's got a lot more extreme in the last few years and they're practicing like ultimate discipline and restraint in things spaces like that and also you know dress manner like that kind of vibe but then when it comes to language and I guess emotion into personal interactions it's like fucking let the get the clip off let's just go we can do whatever we want there. It's fascinating when if you read this article as well they talk a lot about appearance like the aesthetic it has they're like we have to we may take such care to present ourselves in this particular way. These new conservatives actually scorn the classic, I guess, the Mar-a-Lago faked hand, kind of like bombastic. This lot are like glossy, they're an

updated version of the 80s glossy set, the Reagan set, and they're like, we need to look like this. I make sure that I look like this. Very, very strict parameters, but when it comes to language, it's, you know, everything, whatever, everything goes, I'm free. I'm liberated. And yeah, it also reminds me of feminism a bit. And I've talked about this before, how we have obviously had gains within gender equality. Like I would not want to be back in the seventies. That would be shit. No matter what people say, things have changed, there has been progress, but there hasn't been like this deep-rooted emotional revolution when it comes to patriarchal thinking. And we see that in cycles every few years, we try and take a step forward and then we see,

you know, underneath it all, there's still the same roots of misogyny, both internalized, both embodied in men. Like, it is men. It's there. We haven't had this emotional revolution where people really believe that women are equal, that other genders are equal to men, should be equal, that men shouldn't hold a dominating position in society. And until that changes in people's brains, until they really can think past that, then it's not going to change on a wider scale. And I think the same sort of patterns are at play with this kind of empathy.

It's like until we really engender like an emotional revolution, which sounds so wanky, like an emotional revolution, but until we, like, you know, Mark Fisher was like- Okay, Mary Ann Williamson. Mark Fisher was like, we can't think past anything. So we can think past, think differently. Actually, it goes deeper than just like,

we're gonna change our language, we're going to actually really make an effort to be empathetic and it takes that on a grand scale, not just like one or two people, but one or two people is a good start. It isn't gonna change, like we're just gonna go through the same cycles. That's what I think.

I think that, you know, accountability culture can be very toxic, very, very toxic. It's a bit like that short story called The Lottery, where, you know, the little girl stands in the middle and turns around and points the finger and then whoever the finger ends on gets stoned to death. It felt like that and you're witnessing these sort of kangaroo courts of social ostracism playing out again and again and again. And if you think about what that does, that creates an environment where there is a pervasive lack of psychological safety.

Like that's a lot of sort of accountability culture. And this idea of any mistake or error or sloppy language you use, you have to grovel for because you're afraid of being ostracized. That's not the same as a change of language which is rooted in, I can empathize more with someone else and that's why I don't wanna say it, right?

It's something based on fear lasts only as long as this way of doing things is something to be scared of. And when there's been a big political defeat, well, there's nothing to be scared of anymore. And so, I think that's why, you know, that change of language had such shallow roots, such shallow, shallow roots. And I'm not saying that people shouldn't be held accountable,

that you shouldn't criticize people. Of course I'm not saying that. But the way in which it was playing out, particularly online, and this isn't just Twitter, it's also, as you've pointed out, the morality plays of TikTok and Instagram as well. I think it was this sort of pervasive cultural mood. And there's a reason why pretty much

every major world religion has an emphasis on forgiveness. Because if you say that being judged during an executioner is for every human being, watch society collapse. And I think that there was a sort of skepticism or suspicion of things like forgiveness or solidarity or things that meant that you had to deal with and accept and embrace the messiness of other people Because it was like well, I'm not I'm not doing that Why should I let harm into my world and it's like well because guess what you cause harm in other people's the reason why?

You should extend forgiveness is because you will need it from other people the reason why you should extend forgiveness is because you will need it from other people. The reason why you should extend solidarity and grace is because you need it from other people. And I think that there was sort of, you know, people's sense of what was socially possible was crazy, by which I don't mean socially possible in terms of big political change, but the expectations you can have of other people of sainthood was nuts, completely nuts. And again, it's like after that restricted diet, the binge. The binge, when are we going to learn to actually moderate? This is my question. And also, does moderation include using the R word? I don't think my moderation will ever include using the R word. Someone when I was talking about this,

suggested to me, they said, I don't know how many, it links to the empathy thing, they were like, I don't actually know how many disabled people people encounter in everyday life anymore, which was quite a fascinating thing. They have a disabled sibling and I thought it was quite a fascinating thing to think, which I don't know how true it is, but I was thinking more about this idea of like bubbles and the fragmentation and how there is like a siloing off and the more that you slip into polarization,

the more you intentionally silo yourself off from different people and communities, which was quite interesting, but that might be a one for another day. I mean, what it takes, I mean, like, you know, the R word is not a freedom I want. It's not a freedom I want, like, at all. And it's because in my head,

there is an image of a disabled person who has had to contend with that word. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? That's empathy, that's just empathy. That's why. person who has had to contend with that word. Do you know what I mean? It's like that's just empathy. That's why. And how you introduce that empathy, I think, is not through someone who isn't disabled

being like, I don't think you should use this. I think it's about either someone who is disabled or someone who can speak to the experience of a disabled person in their life saying, this is how it would affect someone like this. Yeah, but what happens if you hear someone using it and you don't have like your neighborhood disabled person, why should they have to fucking come around?

No, no, no, no, I wasn't saying that. I wasn't saying that. It's that you need to, it's about saying, this is how someone else is impacted. It's not about saying you're a bad person. It's about creating, do how this is how someone else is impacted. It's not you're a bad person I was about creating do you see what I mean? I just I just be like When I when I've heard it, I'm just like why do you use that word? Like what does that word mean to you?

It's asking those questions Yeah, I mean again like it's different contexts different tactics. I mean with it some I mean, again, like, different contexts, different tactics. I mean, if it's some, I mean, the R word, I'll always do that. If my friends are calling me an F-ag, like, I'm just like, yes, yes, I am, you know? Like, I don't, I mean, that's a different context. Like, I don't give a fuck about that. But it's confusing. If I'm hearing two straight men on a podcast just throwing up being like, yeah, it was so gay, man, it was so gay.

And it's like, first of all, this fucking lazy. Secondly, one of them is so insecure. I just want to like, jump through the my headphones and like, not even slap around the face, but like hug him and go, it's okay. Like, it's okay. You're a good comedian without all this. I can hear the insecurity. But he just falls back. He even said the other other day, like he just falls back on these jokes as like a lazy way when he's worried he's not funny enough, and I'm like, why do you think this is funny now? That's what I mean by the funnest stuff. I guess it's like, so you know, in an interpersonal context with someone who I was close to, I'd be like, why are you using that word? If it was in a, I guess, more conflict driven environment, I'd really go for it.

But also I think that I would, rather than trying to say this makes you a bad person, because nobody cares about that anymore. Yeah, no one cares. That card has lost all of its power. If I'm honest, I'd probably go for a little bit of ritual humiliation if I was in that conflict driven environment.

Is that a good thing? Maybe not. I just be like, this is boring. Like you're being boring and lazy. But I think also there has to be a willingness to make decisions as you go about what things are going to be red lines and a cause for cutting someone off and what things aren't. And I can't say, here's my, you know, ordered Excel spreadsheet where I can slot in each slur and then here's what the response would be because I don't know.

All I know is that the threshold was too low for a long time for cutting someone off. Yeah, and none of this I'm saying cut off. I'm saying how do in fact I'm saying the opposite, which is how do we draw people back? Like, how do we pull them back when these opportunities come up to, like, talk to someone. I think that people are so much more empathetic when it's no longer an abstract argument. Whereas if it's an abstract argument about words, of course the person saying use whatever words you want

will win. And whatever words I want to use now are, I'm in big trouble. I'm in big trouble. I'm in big trouble. I'm so big trouble. I'm in big trouble. I'm so sorry if I was lacking coherence. I genuinely feel like my head's been stuffed with cotton wool. You're actually very coherent and challenging.

Your incoherence is my coherence. On a good day. I don't think that's true. I think you're an incredibly coherent young lady. Sometimes. What am I talking about like? I don't know. Chapelrone. Right, you're just missing your wimple. Where's my wimple? What's a wimple? It's what nuns wear. Oh, a wimple. Okay, right. Yeah, a wimple. Okay, cool.

I don't know how I've been as a nun. I mean, I'm practically a nun now, but I think I've got quite bored. Maybe I am just a nun. Maybe I'm meant to be a nun. I mean, look, watch this conclave once. Actually, still haven't seen conclave and I really need to. So good. All right. I'm in big trouble. How do people submit to I'm in big trouble? They should know by now. If you don't know how to submit, you don't fucking get to ask us any questions. You submit by going to if I speak at navarramedia.com. Send us an email, drop us a line, stating points of view.

What song? What song is that? Is that when I'm 64? Yes it is, which when I was 10, my stepdad turned 64, and me and my sister secretly dressed up as old people by ruining my mum's eyebrow pencil, by drawing lines on our faces, crying downstairs with sticks and shawls. I just remember everyone crying with laughter

as we performed this song. That's so funny. That's so, so funny. We used to be little showgirls, but we've lost all that sadly. Okay, I'm in big trouble. Oh, this is a lengthy one. Dear Moya and Ash, first of all, I just wanted to say thank you so much for your podcast.

Some of the biggest relationship lessons I learned last year came from you guys. No more tests, taking accountability for my own needs and desires, realizing it's okay if your friend doesn't like brats as much as you do. That's pointed, but fine. Last July, I moved into my dream house. I'm a 26-year-old female postgrad student living in a small city. The house is beautiful. Wood floors, a fireplace, huge kitchen, four big bedrooms. The landlord liked me and even said I could bring my cat. However, we had to sign within the week and that meant finding more housemates.

We posted online and found two post grads, one man and one woman. They were already friends with each other, which we thought would be good for the house dynamic. They both seemed nice and were really keen on the house, so we went ahead. I really like the female housemate, but I've had problems with her friend from the start, i.e. the man. The day after we agreed he started an argument on the group chat about my

rent. I don't mind discussing the rental price but I didn't like the way he went about it. It should have been raised earlier and in person before we agreed with each other. He always says his arguments are logical and rational in a way that I feel is meant to shut mine down, but a lot of the time his logic doesn't make sense. Our room price was already proportional to the size, but he said we needed to divide the rent up exactly according to our share of the bedroom floor space, even though the big advantage of this house is the shared downstairs. He also chose his room because he doesn't like carpet, and his is the only one with wooden floors and a fireplace, something that obviously isn't factored into a rent based solely on the size of your floor plan. He'll always ask my boyfriend or my male housemate about their days,

their lives, their upcoming plans, but he usually keeps his headphones on if I come into the room. On several occasions he's mansplained both my degree and my female housemate's new job to us. He always tries to debate or disprove everything I say and sometimes I just have to get out of the kitchen because it just feels There's too much conflict. He's always complaining. I don't think I've ever seen him Enthusiastic about anything he's selfish with chores, which I'd understand if we were all really messy But we're a really clean household me and my friend will always wash up after each other or offer to cook for one another but I feel like the overall house vibe is kind of limited because I don't want to do stuff for him if I know he'll never do it for me. We don't spend that much time in the lovely living space downstairs anymore which I think is pretty sad. I don't think this

is just a me problem. He rarely has plans and doesn't mention any friends. He's never made much effort to be friends with us. Me and my friend used to invite him to the pub into parties at the beginning, but we've both stopped now. If we have someone over he won't say hi or introduce himself, just walk past and then maybe later come interrupt to ask me to move my washing. I'm not saying that I'm an angel to live with, but I really prioritise making spaces feel homely and building connections with my housemates. At first I tried to kill him. At first I tried to kill him with kindness but that hasn't worked so now I'm just left wanting to kill him. I want to ask him to move out before we renew in July and the

friend I moved in with agrees with me but it's difficult because he hasn't really done that much wrong apart from being one of the most unlikable people I've ever met. I've recently had surgery and I'm currently hopping around on crutches and he has been really awful about that too, not asking me how I'm feeling, not saying hi when I got back from the hospital, but I'm not sure any of it is tangible enough for me to have the moral upper hand to say that he has to go. I'm not great with conflict in general, I can fight my corner if I'm backed into one, but for hours after I'll be shaking and

crying from the anxiety. At the same time I don't really see any way for me to come back from the dislike. Please tell me what I should do. I kind of love this dilemma because the letter writer is the special one is not trying to pretend there's any like structural evil that this man has done. They're just like, I don't like him. We don't get on and it's not enjoyable to live with him. And I think when you're thinking about like, trying to ask someone to move out, the question is, you know, how bad is the rental crisis? Would you be doing their made great evil in turn

if you asked them to move out right now? I am like, no. It sounds like this city actually has, I'm sure Ash will disagree with me. it sounds like this city actually has, I'm sure Ash will disagree with me, it sounds like this city actually has quite a lot of housing provision. Like he found this house very quickly. He was around with another female post grad.

If you tell him we'd like, the thing is if you say, we wanna renew in July, we don't wanna live with it anymore. There are two ways it can go. He might say, yeah, I agree. I'm gonna spend the next five months, we're in January right now, yeah, five months looking for a new place. Or he might say, no, I don't want to move out.

You've got to lump it, if he says the second one. You can't force him to move out. You can only say, we would prefer not to live with you anymore. And if you, and I think you should say it now, because then you have five months to maybe find a new house, because I don't think you should keep living with you anymore. And if you, and I think you should say it now, because then you have five months to maybe find a new house, because I don't think you should keep living with this person. Living with someone that you don't like to this degree, it really does

impact your wellbeing. I've found this out through experience. And it's very difficult when you have like, you know, when you don't want to go to the living room, when you don't want to go to these shared spaces, that is going to be having a massive impact on your life, even if you don't really realize it, because you're like a frog boiling in water, slowly inching into this, I hate this living situation vibe, but you're like, it's fine, I can lump it. And then when you get out of it, you're like, oh my god, I didn't realize I could ever be this happy. Everything's aligning. So I think you should have the conversation sooner rather than later, because either way,

someone's going to need enough notice to find a new house. The problem here is mutual dislike. You both cannot stand each other. It's like each person was created in a laboratory specifically to annoy the other. And I think both of you have been trying to find ways to deal with it. I think that your way has been killed with kindness, trying to create a homely living environment.

I think his way was like headphones on in shared spaces and trying to create his own little world within it. That doesn't mean that the way in which he's behaved hasn't been hurtful towards you, but, you know, as you've pointed out, it's not as if he's committed the crime of the century. I was in a situation like this, and it was a circumstance where me and this other person, which is clearly not compatible people, right? We were just not compatible as people, certainly not as housemates.

Circumstance threw us together and we spent so much time just annoying the shit out of one another. And it all came to a head over something which I thought was really minor and I was like oh they're like just just could we do this thing a little bit differently and they it all came out from them it all came out and what this argument was, was a vehicle for them just really not liking me at all. And we tried to have a house meeting, and they were crying, and I was crying,

and it got a little bit racialized. Like it was a bit like, you're really aggressive. And I was like, I'm many things, I'm many things, but I know I'm not aggressive. Like, this is just, blah. And ultimately we just couldn't stand each other. Like that was the problem. Like they weren't an inherently bad person

and neither was I. We were just never ever meant to live together. And let me tell you, when we no longer live together, I'm sure that we both became better people in general, because we were forced into proximity, and the hackles got raised, and, you know, your tolerance shortens, and no longer living together was a good thing. Ultimately, special one, you have got to pull on the big girl pants. The big girl pants have got to go on.

You cannot wait for the situation to resolve itself by itself and you have to say to this person with a good amount of lead in time, I don't think we should live together anymore. And so when the contract comes up for renewal, I would like to find a new housemate. Now, obviously, if this person says no, and it's a 50-50 split within the house, then maybe you've got to be the one to take your lumps and move out.

And it's sad. I too know the siren call of a wooden floor, but you'll find other places. You'll find other places. Because at the moment, you're living in a situation where everything this guy does is gonna be interpreted through mistrust and dislike. So every time he doesn't say hello, it's gonna stack up on top of every other time he didn't say hello.

And that's a powder keg. Trust me, that's a powder keg. The next thing you know, there's a house meeting where people are crying. And oh, that's the powder keg. The next thing you know, there's a house meeting where people are crying. And that's the worst thing in the world. We've all had house meetings where people are crying. Do we have time for another or do we not? I think we may have to wrap up.

Okay, we wrap up. Actually, there is just one thing I wanna say. So we got sent a dilemma that I won't read out and it began to Mother Mawr and Auntie Ash and the letter writer who was signed off as a very conflicted special one and they were just asking can they break up with their boyfriend and I just want to direct them in case they missed it to the episode we recently did which said just break up you will find everything you need in that episode everything you need okay we've done this we've

covered it we've actually given you a resource, listen to that and then break up. I just wanna say that. Also, I think the special one is quite young. So we started dating when I was 15. We've been together for years. We don't have to date, it's just a standard. That means you're 19.

That means you're 19. And I know that people have been saying to you like, oh, don't let this man go. Let him go, let him go. Let him go. Let him go. Let him go. You will both find happiness elsewhere. I just wanted to say it because I didn't want to read it

all out because we've done many dilemmas on that vein. We covered it all in that episode. You're allowed to break up. Ash even says, you're not a bad person. All the questions you have in your letter are answered in that episode. Peace be with you. Write in again, once you've done it.

Peace be with you. Write in again once you've done it. Peace be with you. None energy. I'm in my none era. Like what could I say? And to everyone listening, peace be with you my children. And also with you. Thanks for watching!