If I Speak - 52: Happy birthday IIS! Now ask us anything…

Episode Date: February 18, 2025

One whole year of If I Speak! Moya and Ash celebrate with an #AMA, tackling your questions on career growth, love songs, role models, Irish politics and whether they’re friends in real life. Plus: listener feedback on last week’s “return of the slur”. Send us your dilemmas: [e-mail] Music by Matt Huxley.

Hello and welcome to a very special first anniversary edition of If I Speak. We have had 365 days of wedded podcast bliss with me to celebrate our paper year is Moya Lothian-McLean. Moya, how are you going? I love what it says about us that you are thinking of this in terms of a wedding anniversary, and I'm just thinking in terms of a birthday. Oh, yeah. I'm like, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm one again.

And you're like, we've been married for a whole year. I mean, the thing is, the thing is, is that like, sure, we could look at the podcast as something separate to ourselves, like it's our baby, right? And this baby is celebrating its first birthday. Or we could look at it like a sacred commitment between the two of us. And I know what I'm more interested in. Hilarious that I'm like, it's my birthday. And you're like, it's the baby's birthday. You are a collective creature. and I am a selfish rat. That's my difference.

Also, side note, if we got married, how long do you think the marriage would last? Oh. I think we'd both really wanna work at it, but I think we'd do a lot of precipice driving for the first few years. No, years, I think we'd be six months. I'm a commitment-phobe. Yeah, but I, years, I think we'd be six months. I'm a commimiphabe.

I'd be at the door. Yeah, but I'm also, I don't let people leave me anymore. You're a great spouse though. So I would try and stay for a long time. And I'm a difficult person. So I think eventually you'd pull the plug. That's my prediction. Maybe, but I don't know if I am a,

I think like I brand myself as a good spouse, but like you'd have to ask him indoors. I feel like you're a good spouse. You believe in it and you have really strong values as well as your caring nature. I just, I just feel like you're a good, you're a good spouse. That's very kind. I think you'd be a very good spouse.

No, I wouldn't and that's okay. You would introduce all of the novelty and like excitement and exploration that sometimes I feel I'm not that built for. No, I think I would be a good lover for a couple of months. I think that's my role in life. Okay, all right. Well, that's still adoption. Keep it pushing. Anyway, so it's our birthday. It's our birthday slash wedding anniversary

slash child's birthday, all of that, whatever you want to call it. Before we get into the very exciting show that we have planned, which is going to be just a giant 73 questions posed by the audience. It really is 73 questions this time. This time it's 73. We have a quick feedback email from friend of the pod, Luca, long time listener, first time caller, just wanted to write in about something Ash said in your discussion on slurs, specifically that liberal identity politics haven't delivered any, quote, material gains for people from minority identity groups. So Luke says tracking cause and effect is pretty difficult, but, quote,

if we look at the 21st century, a period when liberals have been ascendant and the left largely very weak, there's loads of stuff you could point to as being real material gains. There's obvious civil rights wins like gay marriage, and then, less talked about on the legal side, there are things like the Equality Act and Disability Rights Act in 2010. Both of these are hugely flawed pieces of lawmaking, obviously, but my work brings me into contact with disability rights organisations who frequently cite the difference that those bits of legislation have made. And if you look at data on inequality, there's also stuff that suggests progress. The gender pay gap decreased from 27.5% in 1997

to around 13% in 2024. There's been a big deal of progress on racial inequalities in education, to the point that ethnic minority children now outperform white children in the UK. And obviously this is more complicated, Lucas says, if you break down by different ethnic minorities. Also, we shouldn't take for granted some of the cultural victories.

If you look at the British Social Attitudes Survey, saying there is nothing wrong with same-sex relationships was a minority opinion as recently as 2012. Now a huge minority say there's nothing wrong. This is a cultural change that has material benefits for people's lives. None of this progress is enough. None of this means that workplaces aren't sexist anymore, or schools aren't racist, there are also metrics like the ethnic pay gap and racial health inequalities, where there's been almost no progress in the aggregate. And that's before we get to the terrible backsliding

on trans rights. However, I think it's a real problem for the socialists left if we simply say these liberals haven't done things the way I like, therefore they've not achieved anything. They actually have achieved quite a lot lot we need to learn what's worked and then also understand what's not to go further For me that would be about fusing legislative and cultural economics But if we say that simply say the whole project was a failure then babies are going to be thrown out with the bathwater in A way that's really damaging anyway. That's to my two cents. Thanks. We made it this far love the podcast didn't just make this far also read out because sometimes it's useful to read out stuff as a counterbalance to what we said. Sometimes we read stuff that's a counterbalance and we're like, no, no.

But I thought that was interesting enough, even if, you know, not everything is grouped with. See, I think it's really interesting and I agree with a lot of it. And I think that what we have here is a classic case of me having failed to define my terms properly. But that's okay. I know, I know. And yet I am kicking myself in the head. Luca, Luca, Luca, I think you are right apart from, if I go back to what I really meant,

I'm talking about a different time period. So when I'm saying liberal identity politics, really I'm talking about 2014, 2015 onwards, where it's kind of marked by the absence of very clear and cogent civil rights demands, and also a lack of political organisations. So I was thinking about this, again, when I was in the shower, because that's where all my best ideas come from. Which is, I think, if you look at the trans rights movement, you've got some very, very small political organizations.

They tend to be quite small, quite localized. And then you've got bigger charities, right? Like, you know, Stonewall is a charity, Mermaids is a charity. So it's a case where you've got political struggle without political organizations. and you also have this wider context which is you know not just the case for the trans rights movement but lots of other movements as well where you don't have hierarchical leadership you have figureheads and role models but you don't have hierarchical leadership where there's sort of clear mandates and accountability and strategy. So you've got lots of people doing different things. You've got these charities who then work in a way that, you know, is inflected by how charities operate and the

spaces that they're able to get leverage. And that there is a sort of absence of organizing at scale, particularly with trans rights that's a reflection of just how small the minority is. But I also think that when you look at other movements that have popped up in that sort of 2015 to 2025 period, a lot of it is also sort of marked by lack of political organization. So I agree with you, Luca, in terms of you looking at a time period, which was, I guess, like kind of 1997 to like early 2010s, but I'm looking at 2015 to 25. And I wonder if we would actually agree. Hmm. Okay. Well, that was a very civilized rebuttal. agree. Hmm okay well that was a very civilized rebuttal. If I make it less civilized we'll be like fuck you Luca, how dare you. No we love Luca, we love Luca's work. Right shall we get on to the meat

of the matter as it were? The meat of the matter. The meat of the matter is that we wanted to do an Ask Me Anything where we would respond to your questions and we would do it with candor. Are you excited? I am actually quite excited, but I think we need to make some small rules, which are most of these we have to do as quick fire and then some of them we're getting deep into it. Right. Got it. All right. So I'm going gonna put the first question to you.

We're both gonna answer them, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool, cool, cool. But we'll alternate in the reading. The two brain cells just like... I didn't sleep very well last night so it is actually probably about two to three knocking about out there. Okay, okay, okay. Question the first, how would you spend your time if you didn't have to earn a living slash would you still do your job? I would write periodically and mostly

jaunt about the world as I wished and occasionally file an article. Probably just wanna like be a contributing editor somewhere to be honest, which actually was a title I hadn't wrote the novel, but I'm like a contributor editor in the sense of some big lifestyle magazines where they don't do fuck all that vibe. Just occasionally hand her an opinion, but mostly it would be reading and thinking and writing when I wanted. I'd probably write some books. That would be my vibe.

What about you, Ash? I'd still do my job. I'd still do my exact job. You've got Stockholm syndrome. I love my captor. Oh my God. This guy with the gun to my head is so charming and so nice. I think you would actually do your job because I know you see it as a calling rather than just like a job that you have to do.

You're like, this is my mission. Yeah, I would change like the context around my job. So I would think I would still do my job. I would do more traveling. I would do more working from other places. And I guess for me, the interesting thing is like, what if I felt that there was no longer a need for me to do my job? Like, I know maybe we achieved communism, then I would do something really different.

I think I would want to retrain as a chef. Oh, my God. That's what I would want to do. Ash Sarko Supper Club 2025. I would love to do that. I would love to do that. Maybe in the next thing I need to ask you, I'm going to put it on a 70 questions. What's your ideal supper club venue? Okay, next question. Next question. Okay, next question. How much time do you two spend together? You have such great chemistry. Are you close friends in real life?

I love this question because the answer is I wouldn't call us like close close friends, but I think you're like a dear beloved for colleague. Does that make sense? Yeah, I I think I call us like close, close friends, but I think you're like a dear, beloved for colleague. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think I think that like, the nature of doing this podcast has also like, the word colleague doesn't quite fit. Yeah, because you know my secret, you know. Yeah. And the job is that like, we have these like, really, like locked in,

highly engaged, emotionally intimate conversations. Yeah. Do you think that it would work if we were closer friends? No, I think we would fill in each other's gaps too much and we'd be too trepidus. There's friends that I can think of that I just wouldn't do. There's one friend I could do a podcast with, actually two friends I could do a podcast with, several other friends I just wouldn't do it with who were like

really close friends in real life. Also we like we'll text each other stuff every now and then, but we're not texting all the time. We don't like hang out loads outside unless it's a party. And I think that makes for a better show frankly. That's also because I do not leave my house. Like the extent to which I don't leave my house is like, I think that like, one of the things that like is really important for this podcast is that I'm really curious about you. And I think that if my curiosity was being satiated outside of the context of the podcast, it would mean that my interactions would probably like decline in quality. Yeah. Also, we disagree on loads of stuff and it's just better when you don't have, you're not around each other all the time when you can start agreeing too much.

Yeah. We have like, we have like very complimentary but slightly different ways of seeing the world. And so it's when I talk to you, I'm like, oh my God, that's a perspective that I would not have considered. And also if one of my close friends said it to me, I'd probably just be like nodding along. But when you're saying I'm really listening and being like, oh, oh, actually, maybe I should take this into my worldview. Okay, next question, which I'm just going to squarely aim at you. What did you think of Kendrick at the Super Bowl?

The thing is, is that I'm a bad judge of this because I can't be impartial. I'm just so excited it's happening. I'm just so excited it's happening. I'm just so excited it's happening. Like I woke up so early in the morning on Monday, so I could like watch it straight away and then wake up my whole house by like shrieking and laughing. And I think that I would have preferred him to be less focused on GNX as an album.

And I would have liked to have heard some stuff from section 80 and some stuff from good kid mad city because I would have wanted it to be just such a celebration of his whole career in rap but not like us and that gaze into the camera and the grin and it's the fact he's got these these little cutie patootie dimples as well Like imagine getting bodied by a cutie patootie. Well Drake doesn't have to imagine that. He has been tootsie rolled by the cutie patootie. I didn't really watch the performance I have to say. I only watched the Not Like Us bit.

So all I can say is incredible things have been happening in the world of bootcut jeans. Incredible things. Do you have a favourite Super Bowl performance? Um, not really. Do you have a favourite live performance you can think of? So one which was also televised? 100%. Whitney Houston doing All the Man I Need at the, I want to say Home for Heroes, I think they were coming back from the Gulf War.

Just literally her singing All the Man I Need. You see God, like you can hear God moving through her. And every time I watch it, I cry just uncontrollably, not because I'm sad, but because the emotion is so moving. Like that's that gospel. That is that gospel. She hits the timbre of her voice. It's just fantastic. I think that music's gotten worse now that we've got fewer gospel singers making pop and R&B. I think that's it. I'd be very interested to know which of the current vocalists are from a gospel background and understand the power of faith in moving your music rather than, but then also it's all the cannibalization of just like, you know,

can Tate McCray access the gospel spirit and let Jesus ride through her when she's singing a fake Britney song? I don't know, because I would say Britney, the spirit of God was in Britney. Britney Jean was a good Christian girl. She was a good Christian girl. We're getting into crazy stuff now. I'm into it. I'm into it. I guess I just don't think her- I'm not religious in any way. Yeah, but just like, Brittany, great in so many ways. Just, I don't like that vocal fry style of singing.

I can't stand it. Yeah, I totally understand that, but I'm thinking of the performance where I'm like, you were charismatic. You elevate a performance to something else. Brittany didn't even have to sing and she was elevating that performance. She loved her Jesus.

You know who else loves her Jesus? Beyonce Knowles. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like she was, you know, like she was in like child bootcamp for singing, like running on a treadmill for hours. I think what I'm pointing at here is it doesn't have to be Jesus.

There has to be a faith in something bigger than the capitalist world in order to elevate you to that next level of stardom and performance, in my opinion, because when you just believe in the money, not to call it Ariana Grande, but there's some things that are just like, there's a block, whereas the next level, the next level, now she's being powered by her faith in an Oscar. Anyway let's move on. What's your most toxic trait in a romantic relationship? Oh hard there's so many. Probably it's got something to maybe my defensiveness

probably like my guardrails can be quite spiky, can be quite critical, I guess, but it's something to the walls that are up. The general thing is the walls are up and it's hard for anyone to get through and the defense mechanisms will go off. What about yours? Did the walls come up when you feel a sense of threat? Or did the walls... I feel threat when any person is romantically interested in me because then it could lead to potential pain. So that'll do it. So there's no way of getting...

Those walls have to come down internally. Anyway, what's your most toxic trait? Oh, I mean, there's loads. I think one is that when I feel a sense of threat, I go very cold and the walls are like, and I withdraw and I cut my own nose off to spite my face. And I have to work really hard when I feel a sense of emotional lack of safety within the relationship to move towards connection rather than draw into self-protection. Like I find that really difficult.

And then also I think that I don't always believe my own desirability. And so when actually what's required of me is a sense of like belief in myself, like it's not there. And that can be very annoying for the other person. It's really hard because it's like I could tell my partner a million times that I like them or I love them or they're desirable to me and that but if they're not hearing it and then they're having to ask for it constantly as well, what do you do? Like, it also tends to a bit where you're like, you don't trust or believe me.

Yeah, and I think that that's how, I think that's how my partner experiences it. He experiences it as lack of trust, and it's not that I'm asking him to like, affirm and affirm and affirm. It's just that like, again, it comes back to, because always in relationships, like both of you will at various times experience a lack of safety or a lack of certainty that the ground's going to be in front of you for this next step, whatever it is.

And both of you have to draw on your inner resources to get there. And if I'm lacking belief in my own desirability, like my own like lovability, and he's like, okay, but like, I just do, I just do, like, can you believe that so we can like get to this next thing that we're trying to do? Yeah, really frustrating. Okay, next question.

How is your 2025 going so far? I think it's going all right. But I'll know when the book comes out and if it gets savaged or not. I mean, that's the thing for me, which is that like so far. What's the release date again? Remind us. 27th of February.

27th. 27th of February. Okay, cool. That's noted. And I'm very nervous about it. How's your 2025 going so far? Really good in some ways. Fucking disaster in others.

But overall, it's gonna be a W year. I've got some, I'm working on some things. I'm cooking up some shit. I love that you did gun fingers for like- No, that was a W. No, that was a W. And then you did gunfingers just as a... Oh my God.

Completely, unconsciously, you were just like... Buh-buh-buh-buh-buh! Take the clip off! Okay, the next question I'm going to read out, but I'm not going to bother answering it because it would take too long. How can we square climate breakdown slash fascist politics with planning our own lives and futures? Thank you for asking that.

That's another episode. That's another episode. I mean, I think that also the answer is you just do. Yeah. Next question. You just keep trucking. Dream guests slash interviews for the podcast and why? I'm gonna limit us to one answer each.

Okay, you have to go first. Sharon Horgan. Sharon Horgan. Sharon Horgan. Oh! I think she's the funniest woman working today and everything she touches turns to fucking hilarity and I would love to have her on. But I would probably flop it into her. Oh, that would be amazing.

I think she'd be fantastic. Esther Perel, it has to be. Of course, of course. It has to be Queen Esther. Thing is like when Esther Perel comes on, what do you ask? Like she's interviewed so much, like what do we say?

The thing is, is that she's gonna, she's gonna go in great directions. It's about interesting prompts. I think she's probably go in great directions. It's about interesting prompts. I think she's probably a downstream for you. I think you need a one-to-one with her. I think you need a special one-to-one. I don't think I could be trusted in a one-to-one. I think I would just be like, I love you.

And that's fine. I love you. Next question. Okay, if you had no prior connections but wanted to become more politically active, where would you begin? PS, this is my fave podcast ever. Ash will give you a much more useful answer but university is why I think we all got into it a bit more.

Where would I begin now? I would jump into the Clyde. I would jump off a bridge. I would just wouldn't. No absolutely this is now the point where you have to become politically active but Ash go on how have to become politically active, but Ash, go on. How would you become politically active? You know what? I would probably choose something that connects me to my local community and brings me into contact with people who aren't necessarily like me

when it comes to identity. So things like housing campaigns, living rent campaigns, acorn, like that kind of thing is where I would start. Yeah. Oh, this is such a good question for you. Okay, go on. What is the best love song of all time? Any kind of love counts?

I'm gonna say you get three. Oh, but it's still too hard. It's still too hard. Okay. Maybe we should split into categories. Contemporary, Hentai by Rosalia. I think it's, that's a song I see God in. That's a song.

It's kind of about sex more than love. So maybe it doesn't count, but I think you have to be in love to have that kind of sex that she's having, or at least very infatuated. Where it's just like, so, she's literally like, so, so, so, so, so, so, so good, good. The way she sings it, it's just this amalgam, the alchemy of bringing together when you love someone

or think you love someone, you're so infatuated. And then the sex, the connection is just liquid. That is, that is a religious experience. There's so many, but the problem is, because I know what I'm listening to at the moment, love-wise, I wanna say those. So I'm listening to the Bee Gees, How Deep Is Your Love, on repeat at the moment.

Oh, great song. Yeah, but the more you sing it, you're like, I really need to learn. Because we're living in a world of fools, Ash. And they're breaking us down. We are living in a world of fools. So that's what I'm listening to at the moment, but I don't know if it's a great song all the time.

And then I think, you send me by Aretha, no, two I'm torn between. These are not the greatest though, these are just the ones I'm listening to at the moment. I wonder if If I say an Aretha song which is definitely in my top three. Okay go on. I wonder if it's gonna be same as yours No, it won't 100% won't. What's yours? Okay, so mine's one step ahead No, it's not the same, but I do love that song

Mine would be I think Ain't No Way Which is technically a heartbreak song, but I think this is about love, right? It's about love. Ain't no, ain't no way for me to love you. Take me to church, Moira, take me to church. I don't have a church voice, sadly, but it's Ain't No Way for me to love you.

This is the voice of an agnostic. If you won't, yeah, exactly. That's why I can't reach certain notes, because I didn't have God opening up the pipes. But it's literally like this ballad and they say it was written by her sister Carol, I think, who was a lesbian. And they think it's like a coded queer song. But it's like there ain't no way for me to love you if you won't let me. And it's, you know, talking about the husband, just like this man who paid too much for what he got it's just the most heartbreaking song about like why won't you know i can't love you if you won't

let me love you and it's you can't tell if it's them talking to themselves about it or um but it's so beautiful and the the high note in it i think that's one of the most powerful love songs of all time and just yeah i'll just, I just, if I, I can't ever sing it in the right pitch, but when I'm singing it, you know there's certain songs where they'll hit like the minor key or major key and you just start crying and you can't help it. That's one of them for me.

So there's three songs, one at the moment. All right, three songs on the moment. One of them's gotta be Dreams by the Cranberries. Such a, you picked this for you, one of the best pop songs of all time, didn't you as well? So beautiful. The thing is, is that I think you can take anything by the Cranberries and you know,

you're sort of torn between Linger and Dreams. And I think that that was the name Dolores O'Riordan. I think she wrote them both when she was like 16 or 17. And it's just, they're so perfect because they're so true. They're so true to that feeling. And she embodies it in her voice. There is this sort of like slightly like ululating,

like lilting, like it's like something is sort of bubbling up within her and it's gonna sweep her away. For My Yearning Girlies, it's gotta be One Step Ahead. And that is a song where Aretha does not let her voice get as big as it could be. And so it's about this sort of like restraint and it's like not quite.

But the whole thing is about not quite giving in. And this. La la la la la. Like, yeah, like it's about not quite letting something happen. And that's just so reflected in the vocal. I love it so, so much. All right. And then, and then, okay, like love song.

It's really hard because it's like, okay, is it something which is about like, kind of like, you know, the abandon of love? Is it something which is about like heartbreak and a note of pain? Is it something which is like, you know, kind of tender? I can tell you're thinking because you're doing your special fillers, your filler words. You're like, is it like that's when you're that's when Ash is really thinking when the likes and you know, come out. That's when you're like, you can see when the likes and the you knows and the so and I mean, like these are all my the cogs are wearing my filler words.

What are you listening to? Let's make it easier. What do you what's the third one that you're listening to at the moment? A third one that I'm listening to at the moment. OK, I need to check just for those listeners who would like some love songs. I do have a giant playlist of every great love song ever. Okay, I mean, look, can I just tell you what, like the last search is on my Spotify.

No, it's X-Gone Give It To Ya and Back That Ass Up. Ooh. Sorry. Great love songs. Actually, do you know what's another great love song? 21 Questions by 50 song? 21 Questions by 50 Cent. 21 Questions by 50 Cent. Okay what's the last love song that like I... I'm sure Dimex said love songs. We should do one. Okay I guess like of these um All This Love That I'm Giving

by Gwen McCrae. I love it and it's got this bass in it which is like... I haven't heard it but I do love a Gwen McCrae. Okay, those are good picks and listen to my playlist if you want some more love songs. Favorite, least favorite bus routes in London and why? You can answer. Okay, can you do a Glasgow version of this as well? No, because I don't want to be sick. No, because I don't want to be sick. Because it's too horrible. I'll do London. I love the 149. Well, I don't want to be so. No, because I don't want to be so. I don't want to be so. I don't want to be so. No, because I don't want to be so. No, because I don't want to be so. I love the 149. Ah, London Bridge, a great route.

London Bridge to Edmonton. Yeah. Gets me almost always where I want to go. My least favorite. Basically any of the single decker ones which do windy, windy through residential streets and housing estates, they often make me feel a bit car sick. Oh, I understand that. Um, what's my favorite London bus route? What's a dependable? That's hard. The thing is, I think my favorite then became one of my most hated. So the 168 used to be such a very fond memories when I first came to London, it was the one that went all the way from South London to Hampstead.

There's a real special bus to me. And recently I got on it. Special bus. Special bus. Recently I got on it to get to Houston. This podcast is for all the special buses out there. We love you. Recently, I got on it to get to Houston and the traffic, this wasn't the buses fault,

but the traffic was so horrendous that I missed my train and I'd gotten in an hour early, but central London traffic's really bad. Also, there's a crisis with buses at the moment in London. You might have noticed this. They're not arriving when they say they're arriving. And no one seems to have- No, they lie. At first, people said,

oh, it's because of the cyber hack. It's because of the cyber hack. I don't think it is that anymore because I swear this was happening before the cyber hack. And I noticed it with the 36 and my friends have been reporting with bus routes that the predictions are no longer accurate. And then there's buses that just won't arrive

at the right time. I think it's something to do with drivers because here in Glasgow, it's the same sort of service, but something is happening to the London bus service. It's not good. Favorite route now though. That's makes it a name. Anything that goes through, you know, that like Houston bit

is, you know, the word I would use for that traffic is snarly. Snarly. That is snarly traffic. Yeah, all snarled up. What's a nice bus that I like going on now? What's a route that I enjoy? Probably just any of the ones like a 36 or that went from Peckham through into maybe,

maybe like the Marlin, maybe the number 12. I quite liked the number 12. I enjoyed that, but I miss my buses. I miss my buses. There's not the option to get the bus here because it costs like two pounds a pop and it's always, always, always late because it's privatised so they're all competing services. So you have to get the bike.

Railway network's great though. I'll give the railway network its props but I really miss sitting on a bus. Any takes on Irish politics? Yes. I don't know enough. No. My takes on Irish politics. Good god. Do you want me dead?

I have lots of thoughts and feelings, mainly to do with the 20th century. It's interesting that Ireland is now the only country that's actually doing economically kind of alright in the current circumstances around this neck of the woods, as it were. Well, the cost of living is insane. Well, that's the thing, like totally insane in Dublin. They've got this really great surplus, but the cost of living hasn't actually gone down, but they've got all this money to do more services.

So I'm interested to see how that shakes out and whether the cost of living will, well, it will actually ameliorate the cost of living at all. And they've, you know, I suspect this is not gonna be a circumstance that continues because now Trump's in the White House. One, the tech vibes, whatever is completely going to change. And two, which Dublin and Ireland are very built on. And two, because Joe Biden loved Ireland so much, he fucking hates Ireland.

Like he, Trump's allied, Trump's mentally allied to Scotland, even if Scotland doesn't accept him. He mentally, because of his mum, is like, Scotland, that's my one. And it's really funny that we've had these two presidents who, like, one is like, I'm so Irish in the most Pennsylvania accent you could ever get. And then- Was it BBC?

I'm Irish! I'm Irish! And then now you've got Trump, he's like, yeah, Scotland, amazing place fascinating that's nice stuff one of the things that was really interesting for me when I went to Ireland and I met some people who have been a part of Sinn Féin for a really long time was that Sinn Féin as a party for them, feels like such a political home and puts them in touch with a political history,

which you cannot compare that to anything that exists in the English political context. When it came to Corbynism, it wasn't as if people were like, oh, the Labour Party is my home. It's like, oh, well, we're, we've just sort of jumped on the, on the back of this thing that like wants to kill us. Like we're like on this sandworm that wants to kill us and we've got to try and make it go where we want it to go. Um, and it was the case of, okay, we had those five years and then like, you know, we were fucked before that, we were fucked afterwards. Whereas the relationship that people have to Sinn Fein

is completely different and they're operating on a different sense of time, which I thought was really, really amazing. Oh, okay. Do you agree with Sally Rooney? We're on an Irish theme, I see. Do you agree with Sally Rooney that career growth is overrated?

Did Sally Rooney say career growth is overrated? Did Sally Rooney say career growth is overrated or did she say that career development of your own craft is overrated? I can't remember what it was. I don't know if it was. I can't remember what it was. Let me double check this. Career.

Oh, she said she doesn't think about her growth as an artist. She says she doesn't think about how, and she says there's a huge cultural fixation with novelty growth. She says both. She says she doesn't think about how, and she says, huge cultural fixation with novelty growth. She says both. She says everything has to grow at the time, get bigger, sell more, be different,

novelty reinvention, and she doesn't find that very interesting. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, I don't wanna speak for Sally, but I guess like for me, the idea of growth has meant something different to me, and growth to me has meant, okay, I'm putting myself in a context where I haven't done something before and I've got to grow to meet the space I've put myself in.

I found that very nutritious as a person. It also means that I'm a complete stress head because I do it all the time but I like it. I think it's been good for me. What about you? I just think it's different Sally Rooney is talking about from the position of being Sally Rooney you know she does interview just after Intermezzo was coming out or just before Intermezzo was coming out and I would say that that book is her finest. It's an incredible book. When I read it I'm like like, I can see, I briefly feel within my grasp is a great truth. I briefly feel that I can see everything so sharply, so clearly. And then when you finish it, you're like, oh, it's gone again. That understanding is gone.

That kind of thing is gone. And I think that book definitely does show her growth as a writer, but she's not, I think she's talking about this idea of like having to reinvent yourself constantly, which you see in pop music like Madonna, Taylor Swift, Ariana, all these artists doing new eras. Yeah, so she's talking about that constantly for like reinvention and completely recreating your persona and yourself and the way you go at things. Whereas Sally Rooney, I would actually say, growth artistically is very obvious. She's sticking to a similar vibe and perfecting it. And it is getting better.

It's noticeably getting sharper, getting more interesting. And that's what happens when you work at something again and again and worry at the same themes, then you can really start digging under the surface. When it comes to growth as career-wise success, she's kind of the apex of what you can be as a novelist. So where is there for her to grow? I don't think that would be interesting to her.

It's, there's no else for her to go. And I imagine it's kind of stifling as well. Whereas- I'm just gonna be like, I'm gonna rewrite War and Peace. Yeah, was career growth for me, what does that actually mean? Like, there's so many different directions that could go in. And there's definitely so many different ways I'm like,

I need to grow as a creative. I'm very stunted. And so my answer is basically, you can't agree or disagree with that per se, because it's totally dependent on the individual circumstance. Right, next question. Who are your leftist role models? Okay, so there are lots of people who've got character traits or things that they do that I really admire. And I can think of those things, like with every single person I work with,

I'm like, okay, they've got this thing and I really, really admire this about them. So the thing I really like about you is that you're super quick. Like you're super quick and like your brain is making connections all the time. And I'm like, okay, I wanna be more like that. The thing I admire about like Michael Walker is that he's got such a stable sense of self.

He's like very good at absorbing criticism. You know, the thing that I like about like working with Chow, our mysterious shadow producer is that it seems to me that she really takes the time to think about things and like won't be pushed into making a judgment before she's ready to make it. So these are all things where I go, here are these people who I work with and they're the things that I admire about them

that I want to cultivate myself. And it's not just people I work with, there are, you know, writers, there are, you know, like, there's so many people. What I reject is this idea of leftist role models, because I think that there is and I know that people will say that this is something I've benefited from, but it's not something which I like about myself, is this like leftist influencer kind of thing

where there's then just too much expectation on them to maintain a personal brand, which kind of encourages the particular kind of parasocial relationship they have with their followers, which I think is really stifling for critical thought. And there are plenty of people in this world who occupy that kind of space. And I think that it can encourage a lack of integrity.

So I don't believe in role models. Yeah, is that same as a role model though? It's an interesting one, because you're talking about influence that less influences, but is that role model, like role models of long predated influences? Yeah, I suppose like I just don't, like role model isn't a thing, a term that I would use.

I would say, I find traits that I admire, but that doesn't mean the entire person is a role model. If you push me, I'd say Naomi Klein. Okay, next. No. No. No. The next is like,

what are your best, funniest, wildest moments from the last 12 months of If I Speak? I don't have any wild moments, we're not wild. Yeah, no, we're not wild, we're just making a podcast. Best live show or anytime that I'm talking to Ash and she says something and I'm like, oh, that's gonna change my life. God damn.

I think those are the best moments. But live show probably the pinnacle, like the embodiment when we've got to see everyone and realize that we had the most engaged, empathetic, smart audience we could ever hope for. And knowing we had an audience. I know that was that was incredible. But just like, see meeting the audience being like, Oh, you really should be doing this show instead of us. That was a moment I was like, God, I'm so lucky to have access to these people and hear what they're saying.

Like it's lucky to have that kind of feedback in real time and exchange of ideas, even though mostly it's one way, but we still constantly get emails and feedback from people who are that switched on and that curious about the world they're in. Like that is such a gift. So I'm very, very grateful for that. I often, I know this is really stupid but there's there was this one thing that you did

which is I think I was talking about how much when I was at primary school you loved the song Conkers and then you were doing an impression of the music teacher whose piano playing is so fire that like the keys are smoking. And every time I think about that, it makes me laugh. I can be just like walking down the street and I'll think about you doing an impression of this like completely like in the fucking zone rock and roll music teacher. And it will crack me up.

That was a great song. But when I think about the Conkers thing, all I hear is the, some people think I'm Conkers. The Disney rascal cover. But that was a very seminal moment. Some people think I'm Conkers. Conkers. Conker-er-er.

All right. Are you good sleepers? How much sleep do you get at night? I'm an excellent sleeper. I'm an eight hour babe. But today I'm tired cause I got seven hours and that really, that really rocks me. Ash? I'm a bad sleeper.

I'm a bad, bad sleeper. I find it hard to fall asleep. I find it hard to stay asleep. Like I find my partner like a good regulating presence for sleep and I sleep so much better when he's around than like if I've gone away or if he's gone away or something. But I'm a bad sleeper.

Always happen. Are you a morning or night person? Morning. Interesting. Good morning. Good morning. Hello. I'm obviously bright and early baby.

The night holds nothing for me anymore. The night holds. Yeah, I'm like, nothing good happens past 10 p.m. I should be in my bed. Oh, this is a question for you. What are your favorite recipes at the moment? Oh, OK. All right. One is chicken cacciatore alla romana. And this is important.

It is the Roman chicken cacciatore, whichana. And this is important. It is the Roman chicken cacciatore, which has no tomato, no tomato. And it has rosemary, garlic, white wine, white wine vinegar. The white wine vinegar is very important. And it's one of those dishes where don't get lazy with it. So with the chicken, you pat pad it dry you salt it fry it skin side down you take it out You deglaze the pan with your wine You know, it's all of these little little steps just

Create a flavor sensation. So there's that. I'm obviously cooking a lot of Roman food at the moment because I went to Rome. So I love making a amatriciana, which is very, very simple. Tomato, guanciale, pecorino, white wine, pasta sauce, very, very nice. And what else? What else?

Oh, I think one of the things that I made, so me and my partner cooked Christmas dinner this year and fucking smashed it out the park like what? And I think one of the kind of unsung heroes was making a red cabbage salad which had orange in it. And it was like ginger, soy sauce, orange, like all that good stuff. Cause you need something bright and acidic

in a Christmas dinner. You couldn't see it listeners, but I was going crazy in the mic when Ash said red cabbage cause I am a red cabbage apostle. I fucking, I eat red cabbage like every day in tahini salads, in roasted veg, in various concoctions, stick it in anything. So long as you've got that wine vinegar, whether red or white, you can do something crazy with red cabbage. It is an unsung hero. I am a cabbage stan. Recipe wise, I'm really boring. Like you've just listed all these beautiful foods and I'm like,

well, do you know what? I've been making one hell of a stir fry at the moment. I'm making one hell of a stir fry. I just need to break something. What's your secret to a stir fry? You have to get the best sauces. So like like don't fuck about with that supermarket shit. You want the Lee Kum oyster sauce. You want mushroom, dark rich mushroom soy sauce, right? And you want Chinese distilled vinegar. Don't, you can, you need to be going to the Oriental store.

I hate that they call it the Oriental store. That's crazy that they still do that. Longden, change your name. You need to be going to the East Asian supermarket to get your wares and that will just instantly elevate. Also udon noodles. Udon noodles will lift anything and make it seem because they're so thick and indolent and they're like,

I wouldn't chew them. Have you ever made yang-yang noodles at home? No, but one day maybe when I have patients. Really easy. Is it easy? Because they're my favorite. I'm a thick noodle, thick with two C's. It's got to be chewy like an earlobe.

Yes, exactly like. Earlobe thickness noodles. What's that called? The rice thing, the Korean one, tibokki? Oh yeah, tibokki. Anyway, next question. Before I- Very, very quickly, is there an ingredient

that you've had abroad that you can't really get here that you just wish was available? No, but there was that dish I talked about, which I'm sure has something in, Mansaf, remember? I mentioned this before, it's that Jordanian meal. And it's got, yeah, that you can't really get anywhere else. I've also heard recently that Injera bread is not in the UK is not anywhere near

what Jira bread should be in East Africa. Like it's not the same as Eritrea and Ethiopia because the water quality is so different here. It doesn't produce the amount of holes that's needed to make proper Jira bread. Another thing I can't make at home. Well, that's why like there's a Ethiopian food stall guide not that far from the office. I've not seen for a while. And he's why like there's a Ethiopian food stall guide not that far from the office. I've not seen him for a while. And he's always like, I import my Indira bread. He's very, very proud of that. See, I heard this fact and I was like,

I need to gather some more info. Now I've got the info. But the other thing I was gonna say that I can't make at home, which I would love to be able to do, which wasn't quite your question, but it's similar. Because I'm lazy. Custard buns, dim sum custard buns,

like steamed custard buns I had the other day. I'm just, I'm not a custard fan. Neither am I, but it's the, I love things where the two ingredients are contrasted or the two textures are really contrasting. So the steamed lightness of the bun with like the bit of, it's only a little bit of custard inside and the sweetness of it contrasting.

It's as good as those, have you been to, when you go to Chinatown, there's that Mameisans, which I got interested years ago, it's now big phenomenon, phenomenon, I can't even pronounce the word, phenomenon. Phenomenon.

And it's dough, like cooked, cooked dough, soft cooked dough, hot, with cold ice cream in the middle. So you've got like the sweetness of the day with the, oh my God, I'm so hungry. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Next question is, oh my God. Okay, a great one. If you could each fight one person from your past and win, who would it be and why? So many people. Would you always be that person at the party? Yeah, mine would be the person at the party who... You know what?

The thing that I most regret about it is that I was provoked into a fight, but I didn't actually fight them, but I've got all the negative consequences as if I did. So I may as well have just fought them. Who else? There are some of my friends' exes who treated them so, so badly.

There's one in particular, and I will not go into any details about it, but I think he behaved like a real dog. And he also like has a bit of a self image of himself as a tough guy. But he's not, he's a fucking dweeb. I wouldn't have to, you wouldn't have to say, well, you're guaranteed to win because of the question.

I would win anyway. I don't want to physically fight anyone because I grew up with, I don't know if you had this with your family, but with my sister, I engaged in WW3 on a regular basis and we both nearly died. So I have the experience of physically fighting someone and winning and losing and none of that was like a long-term satisfaction for me. However, if this fight was a legal battle where I would come away with monetary gain,

if this fight was a legal battle where I would come away with monetary gain, I think my friend's landlord, I think he is the worst, he is generally occupies a position in my mind, unparalleled to anyone else. He's one of the worst human beings I've ever heard of. And he's almost like a caricature of a terrible slum landlord. And I hate him so much. I've never met him. He doesn't know I exist. I would take him to court and rinse him and then re appropriate all his property and give it back to the community. And then I would be waiting for him outside the courthouse steps and I would jump him. Yeah you can finish him off. I think we should I think we should like do some being selective now. One at a time.

Okay, I'm going to choose the next one that I want to hear you answer. Okay, here's one. Are you ever nervous about taking up too much space? I knew you'd pick this. I just felt it in my mind. Yeah, I say it all the time, constantly. If you're interviewing me ever, I'm like,

I don't want to take up space. I don't want to take up space. But then am I just saying that because I know I'm taking up space? I constantly think I'm taking up space, which is funny because I'm five foot one. But yeah, I worry all the time about taking up space. And that's part of the culture that we exist in

where it elevates different people and I've become more aware recently of quite the... now I'm out of water, I'm out of where I existed... London... before I had a platform and there were a lot of people who knew me before I had a platform and I've realized it's quite a different experience to go somewhere where people just know you by your online persona. And the hell that you create for yourself by doing that. So there's also stuff there about taking up space and how much space you will already be allowed because people think you have too much space. You?

Yeah, I feel nervous about this all the time. And part of it is because I know that I am being asked to do things that I shouldn't do. And now I'm in a position where I feel confident and comfortable to say no. Like maybe five years ago, I didn't always do that because maybe I was scared of like the opportunities going away. But now when it's like, oh, we want you to come on a panel about like, you know, the geopolitical situation with Russia. And I'm like, well, I don't know about that. Like, I don't I don't know about that. And whereas that felt very frightening before. And I suppose I think platform you're being invited to take. I think it's good to be nervous about taking up too much space.

Okay. You want me to pick a question? Yes. There's so many I want to ask. Who do you find insufferable in the media but actually think their takes are pretty good? I knew you're dodging this one. Who do I find insufferable in the media, but think their takes are good? The people I find insufferable are people I think whose their takes are bad. I mean, that's the thing.

The people I find insufferable are people I think whose their takes are bad. I mean, that's the thing that's the thing is that like there are lots of people who I think are Not politically aligned with me and Who are who are agents of evil, but I go Oh actually like you're kind of on the money in this way and that's why you're such a an effective opponent because you're able to identify what's going on in social reality. Whereas the people who I find insufferable are just like, you know, the fucking like libs who say the same shit all the time and don't adapt what they're saying according to what's going on.

It's just like manifesting. Yeah. I would say there's a presenter on the most popular news podcast in the country who I think is a very good journalist, or used to be, has got a real disease of pundit brain. I get it. As a former pundit, political pundit, and now a just general cultural commentator. Of course I'm diseased with this too. I think a lot of their takes are good in theory. I think they do a lot of work. I find them increasingly insufferable.

Is it this person? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think the ego is getting a bit out of control and you can hear it in the work. The ego may have landed. You can hear it in the work. Okay, you pick a question. Okay, well this was one that I have for you,

which is that you seem really comfortable on camera to me and you make videos where you're speaking very candidly and casually about something you've been thinking about. And that is something which I find a real source of anxiety. If you're able to speak on camera, if I'm speaking to someone else, like we're in a conversation, I find it really difficult to like set myself up and like film myself. So my question is how has your relationships are being filmed changed over

time and is it as effortless and as chill as I think it is as a viewer? I think that's a difficult question. It does feel quite, I feel fine on camera, but as we know, there's times I'm like, don't look at me. Don't put the camera on me. It depends what we're talking about. Like what, what subjects are you referring to? Because if the camera is on me and I'm choosing to film something, just from the comfort of my bed, a silly little reel that I put online, or if we're talking here,

there's a lot more comfort because it's a space that I know I'm talking about. If you put me on politics live, fucking sweating like a crazy thing and having an experience so stressful that I wish to not repeat it and then I forget and I'm the opposite I'm the opposite politics live a light work. Well see you go. If you ask me to shoot a video in my own room I'm like okay this is the thing you know what you're talking about when it comes to politics and I know what I'm talking about when it comes to like a self-obsessed little real. So if I'm just chatting away, that's easy for me because it's just like, weee, five minutes live at the Apollo. Whereas you're doing is you're like, this is why the economy is not working.

No, I think it's different. Also, like the listeners can't hear this, but I was shaking shaking my head I don't think it's self-obsession. I think it's that I Become animated through conflict And if you give me loads of space, I'm paralyzed by self-doubt is it is it conflict or is it just because you have someone to Play off then it's like it's not even conflict because you're animated when we do the podcast So it's just having a foil that you can bounce off and respond to. Yeah I need a foil. Whereas I'm like me myself and I.

That actually speaks to our characters as well like the because you're like no I need people around and I'm very like get everyone away from me. Get everyone away from me but I also want the option of being near them. I want them away, but on call. There's so many really interesting questions here that I want to ask you. There's so many. How certain are you about your direction in life? So certain.

So, so certain. Certain to a point that I wonder if sometimes it's frustrating for my partner, who's much more of a like, exploration, creativity, possibility kind of guy. And I'm just like, I think this might be my forever home. And I think this might be for my forever job. And like, this is my forever relationship. But that's so important. And it's peaceful, because then you can concentrate on the other things in life, you can concentrate on like, okay, this is my forever job. And I can really just bank in. in life. You can concentrate on like, okay, this is my forever job and I can really just bank in. Every time I'm like, maybe this is my forever thing and then I undercut it. That's another change in direction. That's another whoop whoop. I can't, I'm a commitment-phobe. Like a real commitment-phobe. And I think one of the reasons you're so good at what you do is because you're able to be certain that this is the right thing for you and you really give your all

to it. But I think the sacrifice there is exploration and creativity. Well you just went to fucking Rome. You went to Rome and you've written a book. That's... Writing a book isn't necessarily creative but I know that that sounds crazy. I've read some... My copy's arrived and I've started reading some of the prose like it's creative. Okay?

It's creative. Okay. Okay, do either of you identify as LGBTQ plus? No, this is the thing. It's like so many people think I must be queer and I've tried it. Unless the Q is for queer baiting. The Q actually for me, my friends always like the G doesn't sound for gay baiting about men that he thinks are perhaps not being honest about their sexual orientation. No, I don't think I can claim that because even though I've tried, I've dabbled, I've had a good go. It's not stuck at all. And I don't feel, I don't think I feel sexual attraction to women. I think the most beautiful creatures in the world. But when my friend sent me the lesbian master doc,

I think I told the story, I read the lesbian master doc expecting to be like, yeah, I'm a comp heterosexuality sucker. And I came up being like, no, it's comp queerness for me. I feel like I actually don't feel any of this. And I actually think I've got to come out straight. But that's obviously married to a deep, deep mistrust verging on occasional misandry. And that's quite a problem and things I've got to deal with.

So I think no, but I'm this remember Darren Criss being like, I'm culturally queer. I don't think I can claim that, but I would say that my entire social circle is. He's not, he's not wrong. Like he's not wrong. Being ugly once does not a man make culturally clear. I don't know man. Like. It's a fun thing to say. I don't think you can call yourself culturally clear, queer,

but I think other people can annoy you. All I'll say, you know what? Where's the H in LGBTQ plus I plus. Where's the H for hags, okay? Where's hag pride? Sorry, I thought you were gonna say H for heterosexual. That was gonna be a bad word. It just defeats the purpose.

No, H for Hag, please. Okay, Ash, what about you? H for Hag. Hell yeah, I'm LGBTQ+, I'm queerbaiting+. Do you think you queerbait? Well, I don't know. You don't queerbait at all? What are you talking about?

You're the most wife-wife guy I've ever met. You're a straight lady. You're a straight lady. You're a straight lady. Yeah, but no, I'm not part of the queer family. Gave it a go, gave it a go. It's the thing, I think once you give it a go and you properly try to have a try and then you can be like, do you know what, actually, no.

When you've really given it a go, but until you've really given it a go. Have a look. Yeah, I really gave it a go. But until you've really given it a go. Have a look. Yeah, I really gave it a go. And then I was like, sorry to that lady. Like, sorry to that lady. Okay, should we do two more questions or one more question each?

Let's do one more each. One more each, okay. One more each. Oh, okay. Not gonna ask that one. I'm gonna ask who are the people in your life you hold really, really different views from? Okay, politically probably not that many.

I mean, if you, you know, I'm like, oh, but like some of my friends are anarchists and I'm not an anarchist and people are like, that is not a big difference. It's not as if I've got loads of people in my life who are really right wing. But when it comes to differences in views, in terms of values, like what are your most deeply held values in terms of what makes a good life, huge differences. So they're just, they're just not political ones.

They're the ones in values. Who do I hold really different views from? I think my stepdad, my sort of stepdad. Thing is, he's not actually right-wing at all, that's not the difference, it's the values, like you say, and the optimism. We have very different, you know, optimistic ideas, he's a pessimist.

But it was really funny, I remember over Christmas, he was like, you won't like who I voted for. I can't remember if I told this story and I was like, who did you vote for? I kept guessing and I was like, was it the Tories? He was like, no. And I was like, was it the, you know, was it the Dems? He was like, no. He voted for the Greens. I was like, why would I not like that? Also, it doesn't matter if I like it or not, but I just find it so funny.

Cause he was like, you're a labor. Like number one troll. I was like, catch up. We're all on the greens now, actually. Oh, that's actually a big secret. That's a big secret that I haven't said. Didn't actually vote in the election. You didn't actually vote.

I didn't vote. Oops. I voted because I'm in David Lammy's constituency, so I voted green. That was my, that was one of my questions. I've got, I've got a question. And it's a question that I've been wanting to ask you for a long time. I've got a question that I've been wanting to ask you for a long time. I've got a question that I've been wanting to ask you for a long time.

I've got a question that I've been wanting to ask you for a long time. I've got a question that I've been wanting to ask you for a long time. I've got a question that I've been wanting to ask you for a long time. I've got a question that I've been wanting to ask you for a long time. I've got a question that I've been wanting to ask you for a long time. I've got a question that I've been wanting to ask you for a long time. I've got a question that I've been wanting to ask you for a long time. I've got a question that I've been wanting to ask you for a long time. I've got a question that I've been wanting to ask you for a long time. I voted because I'm in David Lammy's constituency, so I voted green. That was my, that was into my questions. I've got, I've got a question and I thought that the phrasing of this was really, really interesting so I'm reading it out.

How do you manage to combat everyday biases, especially in the setting of older white people that may not have exposure to people of color? How best do we meet working class white people with compassion regarding their ignorance? Well, I don't know. How do they meet you regarding your ignorance? I know this was sent with like love and care, but it's like... Yeah, the response has got to be with love. Yeah. How do you... Maybe don't treat them just like? How do we best meet working class white people with compassion, regard, and ignorance? I think you need to seriously think about what you're asking there and who you have in mind and

the ideas that you have about this group, and maybe generalizations and maybe fear regarding this group. There's, I just think when we think of people as like a monolith and we also think that we know so much better than them in different ways. I'm not saying that, you know, members of this group won't have biases and that there's not ignorance within it, same as ignorance in any group, but I think when we start to be like, how do we best meet them? How do I best minister to my poor misguided flock? There's a superiority there. A superiority that is going to undermine any attempt you're actually making to connect with people who hold views and maybe convert them to your cause. I think that like, you know,

there are two contradictory forces and you have to hold both. One is, you know, obviously we live in a society which is deeply and profoundly shaped by racism. But also I am a believer that in social interactions is very often the case that you get what you put in. So if you're coming to it with mistrust, superiority and fear, that's what you're gonna get back.

And people aren't idiots, people aren't idiots. And they can tell when you're going to get back. And people aren't idiots. People aren't idiots. And they can tell when you're, you're trying to be compassionate, but from a place of superiority, rather than I'm curious about you. And I want to, I want to connect with you. Like people can pick that up. And I'm not, I've not always been good at this. And I may be, I may be still, I'm not always been good at this and I maybe still I'm not good at this. And there have been so many times where my response to feeling nervous or feeling of threat or anticipating disrespect has to come in with my own sense of superiority. And that's made things worse. And I think that that, you know, I want to split maybe this question in two halves, which is like, how do you deal with everyday biases?

Because that is the thing, that is the thing that like we have to deal with. And then the second bit, which is where we're sort of lovingly trying to redirect, is that like, if you're approaching like working class people of any race with the sense of like, well, I think you're ignorant and I'm the one that's going to show you the light. Like, they're going to treat you like you're a

prick because you're kind of being a prick. Like, you know? Yeah. Go back to the missionary, honey. And let's, let's go over the texts again. Let's go. Let's run them back. Let's go over the training. Book of Mormon time. Like, let's think more about how we're going about this and how we're thinking about people before we try and minister to them Because it's not gonna get you anywhere. Okay, that was asked me anything That was asked me anything. They asked us anything. This has been if I speak first anniversary Happy birthday slash paper anniversary slash child Versary to us. See you next week. Bye!