If I Speak - 58: I want to be fun again. Help!

Episode Date: April 1, 2025

Ash has an intrusive thought that she thinks Moya can help with: make me fun again! Plus advice for a listener navigating the identity politics of the student council. We’re now yapping on TikTok! Follow us @ifispeakpod Send us your dilemmas: [e-mail] Music by Matt Huxley.

Music Listeners can't see what just happened but Moira just did an over the head clap. Like she was singing, We Will Rock You. It was to start the show. It was like a film clap. That was not a film clap. It's because I had my pen in my hand, so it was a soft, muted, aborted clap. Okay, no. A film clap is sideways. Wow. So showing me up for Never Have Been on a film set.

I see how it is. It's... I don't have the word for it, been on a film set. I see how it is. It's, I don't have the word for it, but it's something ist. There's an ist going on here. It's something ist. It's something ist. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to what feels like a particularly giddy episode of If I Speak.

I feel giddy, are you giddy? I feel giddy. Do you think it's the sunshine? Do you think it's spring? 100%. Yeah, it makes such a difference. Just, I've been in a good mood. Yesterday I was walking around and I thought,

something's a bit wrong with Glasgow. And then I realised it's because it hasn't rained properly in about a week. And I was just flabbergasted by the lack of wetness around me and how dry and beautiful everything was. I had to go up north for a couple of days and when I came back yesterday, all of the blossoms were blooming.

So the apple blossom, the cherry blossom, there's some kind of mysterious tree. I don't know the names of trees and plants, but one of my neighbors on my road has got a tree where it's like the flowers of the tree are like giant daisies. Ooh, ooh. Send me a picture.

I might be able to identify. Interesting. They might just be giant daisies on a tree. No, but it's a tree, it's a tree. When you say giant daisies, so. They look to me like giant daisies. See, I need to know what you think is a giant daisy. Is it a tree tree or is it like a small tree?

It's a tree tree. I know the difference between a tree and a bush. I'm not that, I'm not that city filled. Sometimes people are very fast and loose with what's a tree and what's not. I mean, it could be a magnolia, but they're not very daisy like.

It's not a magnolia. I'll send a picture and then maybe we can invite special ones to cast judgment as well. We can share it on socials. Moya, before we get into the usual show, you have listener feedback to share with the group. Two bits of listener feedback related to the dilemma that we received about homesickness.

And I wanted to read both these pieces of listener feedback out because I think it's important that you know we do actually read and take in all your feedback. And these were interesting slash useful in different ways. And I'll let you decide which adjective applies to which. Are those adjectives? Those are just descriptors.

Not so good with my words. Okay. Okay, those are adjectives. Those are adjectives. Which adjectives apply to which? Right, first piece. Dear Moy and Ash, I've been listening since day one. Then the special one says those are nice things,

but I will skip to the feedback. I thought I would share some practical tips for making friends when you move abroad. This advice is coming from a seasoned hermit, an old time anxious person. And they say they moved to Spain three years ago, thinking they would only be there for one year, but now they have the happiest they've ever been and can't imagine moving back to the UK. And here is seven pieces, actually eight pieces of advice,

and I'll try and shorten it a little bit. Number one, get on Facebook groups. They say fuck Facebook and Metta, that's the same thing I'm afraid to say, but that's how they found their flat and how their friends found each other. And chances are out of five cringe expat events, you'll find at least one person you vibe with. Two, dating apps. Hate them for dating? Great for making friends. Three, look into living with other people if that's an option available to you. One of their housemates, they say, is now one of their closest friends and introduced them to all of her friends. Now they're all besties. 4. Exercise classes. Just a good way to expose yourself to different people and find routine. Great tip.

5. Try as hard as you can be to be more forward than you normally would be. If there's someone in your class you like, find a way to ask them for a coffee. Chances are they are a bit lonely and would love it if someone reached out. One of the first little groups of friends I made was because I complimented someone's jacket outside a house viewing. Six, find sanctuaries in the city and little routines that make you feel safe and comfy like a coffee shop near your house or a park you like to go to. And if you go regularly, these places will be familiar to you and hopefully make you feel more at home. I have this as well. Seven, seems counterintuitive, but don't call home or visit home too much. Obviously it's

important to stay connected, but I think too much of this can distract you from the present and make you miss home more. Preach. Finally, although it feels as though you need to immerse yourself in the culture, it's really important to have some friends from the same place as you, some allies. Quit the judgement that you're wasting your time there. Moving to another place is a huge deal. You're already doing amazingly by making that step. Know the option of home is always there.

And if you do go back, I promise that pushing through this discomfort will be so worth it for the confidence you gained. Special one! Clap for you because that is amazing advice and very helpful and practical. Thank you for giving us that. Now I have emailed two. Slightly different in tone.

The medicine. The medicine. giving us that. Now I have emailed two, slightly different in tone. The medicine. The medicine. Dear Ash and Moira, I'm a long time listener and admirer of you both. However, I was left disappointed at your recent episode for two main reasons. The first is regarding your response to the dilemma, the person struggling with homesickness and loneliness while on her year aboard at university. I understand that both of you have limited personal experience of what the dilemma writer had been talking about, and I would have expected either a degree of research to be put in or for you not to respond at all. Ouch. There are many

practical ways to help people in that situation, instead of pithily telling them to accept the feeling of homesickness alone and then talking about your own personal experiences, which in reality relate very little to your listener. I disagree slightly there. I feel like my experience of homesickness probably does relate to that listener's feeling of a homesickness, but you know, maybe that did not come across. And then the second point that left me irked was the bad mouthing of Manchester. Was this me? This was both of us. I, do you know what? I joined in and I shouldn't have joined in.

I don't mind Manchester, I'd take it back. Anyway, this was unnecessary and left a bitter taste in my mouth. We don't have to love every place we visit. We may have criticisms of cities, but you have a duty to your listeners, not to just downright shit on places from your London centric perspective. Many of us, yes, me too, and not from London. I'm not from London, nor do we live there. I currently don't live there. One thing I've learned in my years of traveling,

living abroad and meeting people from everywhere is that you should always be respectful of places. You may internally dislike a city but you don't have to say out loud. You're so right, we don't have to, we just chose to. Your podcast is comforting to listen to much of the time, you stare a lively date from afar for my friends and maybe because I have you on in my home it's a false sense of intimacy but I expected a little more respect. I mean all this in the friendliest way possible and wish you both the best. Listener, your words hurt. Your words hurt me. I take some of it on board. Some of it I'm like, I don't have a fucking duty to be nice about a place, but I will say I was too harsh on Manchester.

I do like Manchester. And it was a, it It was a little joke We're just having a little riff, but I understand that it pissed you off, but I do like Manchester Do you know I fucking hate though? Slough? No, I'm joking I actually don't care about Slough at all. I have no opinions on Slough. Come friendly bombs, fall on Slough. No, Slough is totally fine It's just I feel bad for Slough because Slough is because of Slough's name is a punchline It also got a raw deal on that John Betjeman poem. I thought it was more to do with the office, but is that Slough?

Yeah, it might be. It's in the midst of retail parking, the Slough or Swindon, I can't remember which one, but both of them become punchlines. What I'd say about the thing about like respecting other places is that I think that, respecting other places is that I think that, I think that you have to be a little bit flexible and have some nuance. I'm not going to go slagging off other cities in different countries. Why? I slag off Barcelona all the time. Well, unless they are sort of rich and famous and prestige enough to be able to take it. So fuck Paris, I'm sorry. Right? Like I feel like I can take it. Manchester is so buzzing up and coming. But like Rome

is that girl. Rome is that girl to me and always will be. So I think that I would be like a lot more limited in slagging off cities and other parts of the world, unless it's Paris. When it comes to this country, I think why is really important. So if you're effectively slagging off a place for being poorer than the place you live, that makes you a prick, right? That makes you a prick.

But if you're just doing some garden variety, regional beef, that's fine. Like I genuinely think that's fine. And like, I don't think that it's shitting on a place from a London centric perspective because guess what? I've got smoke for South London as well and the West. Yeah, on the homesickness thing as well, I'm sorry we let you down in our dilemma.

And so I hope that the one we read out before, which I might add, I was gonna read out before we got the second letter made up for it a little bit. We got our lovely special ones to do a bit of heavy lifting. And yeah, I'm sorry that the experiences we put forward you felt weren't helpful on that dilemma. Sometimes we will talk shit that you don't like. I'm so sorry. Can I say one more thing about slacking off Manchester? Yes, you can. And this isn't actually about Manchester, it's about my own motivations. about slacking off Manchester. Yes, you can.

And this isn't actually about Manchester, it's about my own motivations. So one, like my beef with Manchester isn't, like one, it's like kind of football related, right? So I support Tottenham, my sister supports United and was supporting United when Manchester United won the treble. That was a hard time for me. That was a really hard time growing up because my sister was supporting United when they won the treble and then all the rest of my friends a little bit later were supporting Arsenal

when they won with the Invincible season. Yeah I was like, how was Invincible for you? It was hard, it was hard and also like because Arsenal won with an all-black outfield team, like every single kid of colour was supporting Arsenal and it was just me and like the Hartford cheer racists being like, come on, who's this? Hard time, hard time. Second thing is my deadbeat absentee father moved to Greater Manchester. Not you pulling out the deadbeat dad being like, this is why I hate Manchester. No, it is. It is. It is. And I'm now holding like this like little contraption, like it's a little pistol, which is just so, I've had a little contraption on my desk, which I'm now like pointing at like my camera. So he moved to Manchester, Greater Manchester. Ash is doing guns with the contraption now when she talks about Manchester.

He moved to Greater Manchester. And when I was a kid, I know it's like, why don't you ever want to come and see us? He would be like, oh, it's too far. And he talked about Manchester like it was fucking Australia. And then I realized it wasn't that far. So beef with Manchester for providing a safe haven to a deadbeat. And thirdly, and finally, and this is important, I married into Yorkshire. I married into Yorkshire. I'm married into Yorkshire. There is a white rose.

There is a red rose. I am team white rose. So I'm sorry, Manchester. It doesn't fucking end here. I'm fine with Manchester. There's some delicious food there. I wouldn't want to live there. Something about the connections in the city doesn't, doesn't vibe with my spirit,

but that's okay. But I'm not from London and I want this narrative to end. I may be an adopted Londoner, but I'm not from there. I came from the West Midlands. You've got to start slowly and over time, like turning up your own regional accent. Oh, you like, you want me to turn up my regional accent. It's really bad. Oh yeah.

I can't do a formal accent. My accent is like, my accent used to be like a brr, it's like a lot flatter like that. Like that's the accent of a carer for sure. That's it. But my mum, when I was young, started hearing me do things like saying work like that, told me I wouldn't get a job, which I think tells you everything you need to know about her very specific middle class mobility position. And because she comes from a background of farmers. And yet everyone I know with that accent is very successful. So, there you go. That's that on the Waitrose snobbery.

Right, right. Do you have some questions for me? Yeah, I do actually. Let's go. I'm on the wrong page. I'm on the wrong page. Okay, I found it. I was like reading my notes being like, reality feels grueling.

No, that's not it. Number one, are you spring cleaning this year? Yes, I will be. I absolutely will be. I did some big cleans recently, but because at the moment my housemate is very, very busy. He's got a big project on. And I don't want to out him, but I'm very, very proud of him. So I've been doing a lot of, I've been doing extra cooking to keep him well fed because otherwise he would only eat crumpets during this crunch time. So I think the spring clean will have to be delayed until after he's finished with this project so we can all muck in. Are you spring cleaning? I actually just released a sub stack on my massive downsize slash spring clean that I've done

and how I'm getting rid of things that I've literally been clinging on to for a decade plus because there are books that I am getting rid of that I have had since even before university that I never read that I used as sort of fake fodder in my personal statement and never even opened the cover of. So no one has to read Mrs. Dalloway. No one has to read it. No, you were English. I was history. So mine are all things like, what is history? The practice of history. So different, different vibes. Um, yeah, so I'm getting rid of loads of stuff, loads of clothes, loads of books, loads of jewelry, loads of makeup, which is outdated, I just keep.

I'm never gonna use it and I just keep it. So I'm interested in like what you'd be getting rid of if you sprung cleaned. Like what would you do with it? I'm really not attached to stuff. I do a bit clear outs basically every year of clothes, makeup stuff. I don't hold onto things.

The one thing that I do hoard is books. Same. I don't ever let them go. Well, this is literally it, Ash. So I've been holding on to these books for so long, and so many of them I've never opened. And I just like to look at them and think, oh, one day I will read that, one day I'll open that. And I have different tiers of the books. So there's books that live in the living room, books that live in the hallway, my A list, which is in my bedroom, which are the books that either are very special to me or things that I am actively reading and I wrote this in my sub-text but even with the clear out I've got like six 60 litre crates of books and then two extra cardboard boxes

which I think is enough of a library for a 30 year old with no fixed address don't you? And then like five boxes of books are going. True, true, going. So there were loads of books I just didn't need that I was holding onto because I was like, hmm, maybe I will read Plato's Republic one day. Hmm, the skinner, maybe I'll actually bother reading. No, I'm not gonna read it. My favorite thing about Plato's Republic is how much he hates poets.

Well, I wouldn't know, I've never read it. He's like, they're not gonna be here. They're not gonna be here, they're fucking liars. It's so funny, man. Plato would hate rappers. Anyway, next question. What does your handwriting say about you? Probably that I'm quite repressed.

So I press down really, really hard and the letters tend to be very small. That's so interesting. Right. Third question. What colors suit you best? Black, white, red. Why?

I don't know, I don't know. I just, I feel it makes my skin look best. They're the colors that I am most drawn to. I don't, I don't really wear that much I am most drawn to. I don't really wear that much that that's not those colors. I mean, like I've tried and I've tried to be like, oh, maybe I'll wear pastel sometimes. I just look like a fucking Easter egg in them. Like I just really.

Like someone's just bitten into the mini egg. It's just like brown and pastel. I think you look really good in a bright yellow as well. I do look good in a yellow. I think primary colors will suit you. I would quite like to get some bright yellow trousers maybe. Maybe I'll do that. Bright yellow trousers?

No, you need like a bright yellow mini dress or like a bright yellow top. I don't really wear that many mini dresses. I've got one mini dress and it's black. But I would never get yellow trousers because they get so messy so quickly. You want it with yellow because it's such an annoying color

in terms of living in, sorry, I'm about to mention London, living in a major metropolis where it's very grimy. Anything like whites and yellows, trousers particularly fade quickly and get grime on them, whereas tops I find a much easier. I'm wearing white trousers right now. I'm wearing a crew trouser.

Wow, you've got your shit together. Wait, look, look. That is a good trouser. You have your shit together because every time I wear my white jeans, I get terrified that I'll get something on them. And they come out like once a year. Shall we move along?

Yes, sorry, we can move along. I'm just so into talking about these colors. I'm sorry, I was just like, ah man, we're on the trousers conversation. Abort, abort. The wrong trousers. The wrong trousers. Locking in, you have a big middle segment for us.

Go. I do, I have an intrusive thought and it boils down to, I want to be fun again and I'm turning to you Moira, someone who I think has a real appetite for fun, a talent for fun, for advice. So over the past few years, and I think that a lot of it has been down to 2019 general election going into a pandemic. I think I've probably tilted away from fun. I used to be someone who had a little bit of recklessness in them, a bit of carelessness. I would get up to all sorts on a weekday, no less. And now I've become someone who is drawn a lot more towards responsibility. And I don't think that that's a bad thing.

It's yielded some really great results. I've got a solid foundation in my life. I'm really proud of the work that I do. I'm proud of my achievements, especially this year. I feel that I can create stability for other people, that I can, you know, help them ground themselves. There's a lot in there for me to go that tilt towards responsibility has been good. I think the part of it is to do with age and sort of, you know, getting into my thirties and go, well, like, let's get this show on the road. But also, you know, there have been big externals.

So, you know, between 2020 and 2024, I had three very close bereavements. And so I had to be there for my family. And maybe because there were all these shocks coming at me, it made me a bit more tentative about embracing life. So my partner is very different. He thinks life is just gonna give him good things and he feels very confident as he moves through it.

Whereas I'm like, ooh, something terrible is just around the corner. But I don't wanna stay trapped in that place. And I think it's easy to get caught up in the explanations of why I am the way I am right now. I don't want that. What I want is a pathway to changing. I want to have fun again.

I want to be fun again. I don't want to worry so much about like, you know, if I'm out and I'm having a dance, like does someone recognize me and are they judging me for it? I want to be able to switch off my cautious, hyper-vigilant brain sometimes and embrace, abandon possibility.

I remember being in my twenties and being like, I will begin a night and I won't know where it will end. Whereas now I'm like, it will end at 11 o'clock in my bed. So my question to you, Moja, how can I be a fun person again? Well, welcome to the fun zone. To start, I have to ask you a question first. What are we constructing as fun? I knew you would hit me with that one. Obviously.

And I suppose. Obviously. I don't know. I mean, I suppose before a lot of it would orbit around music, psychoactive substances staying up very late. And I know that lots of people have very different music, psychoactive substances, staying up very late. And I know that lots of people have very different relationships with psychoactive substances.

I think I've been quite lucky in my brain chemistry, which is that they don't feel compulsive to me. I've always been quite good at taking or leaving, but I think I've been scared of feeling anxious or with certain kinds, like, you know, PTSD coming, like screaming in. So I've just not been, I've not been getting on it like I used to.

But that's fine. I'm gonna get into that in a second. We need to narrow this down though. When you were saying to me, I want to have fun, what images are flashing through your mind? This is an important exercise. What are you doing? I guess there are some quite specific memories, right?

There are memories of particular house parties, particular club nights, a circle of friends with whom there was a combination of really, really enjoying music and dancing together, but also goofiness. A strong, strong vein of goofiness. And just to say that in particular, that goofiness isn't something that's gone away. It's just something which I am able to access

in smaller spaces. So very much within the context of my home, a few pubs, which are like quite close to me or my friend's houses. It's not something that I feel I can tap into when I'm somewhere new necessarily. Whereas I was always going to new places before. Okay.

I have already got a slight diagnosis. Just an analysis maybe, more of analysis. Okay, so from what you were saying to me, what we're talking about here is not even the concept of fun, it's a very specific concept of going out dancing on a night out, right? Clubbing or live music or something that ends in the wee hours of the morning.

And as you say, might often involve psychoactive substances. It's a specific type of fun that I think is often presented to us as like the ultimate hedonism, the night out. And what you else were saying to me is that you still have nights like this and the goofiness, but because your zones of safety have constricted so much, they don't happen in a spontaneous way, any in the world or nearly as frequently

because you can't be out in a random space and feel safe enough to engage in the behaviors that you used to. Does that sound accurate? That sounds bang on. Wow. Maybe I should retrain. Oh my God, I'm so talented.

Maybe I should retrain. I'm so perceptive. It's not perceptive, I'm so perceptive. It's not perceptive. It's not perceptive. You literally are saying this to me. But I mean, you're kind of actually, you've come to kind of the wrong place because I am a massive proponent of accepting changes within yourself as is.

And specifically when it comes to a changed relationship with substances. So I know that a lot of people, there's so many different times we can go down here, because I also want to talk about how right now I think there's a big swing among people, a big longing, desire towards escapism and fun. This idea, amorphous idea of fun, it means different things to different people, but this idea of I miss a time when I felt light and free. And I want to get back there. And I think this is a direct response to the political conditions we live in right now. And you're seeing it with like brands as well. There's a real onus on what if you could just block out the world and live in like fashion, like whimsy, that there's a real swing back towards like escapism, fantasy, romantasy, all of that kind of thing. And all of it to me as, and I see it myself, all this adds up to me.

Like, I just want to have fun. I just want to have fun. It's like a defiant attempt to pretend that the political circumstances around us are not happening because it's like, well, what do you do? They've been grinding on, you know, you've got like this genocide that's been grinding for two years, the economic conditions in Britain, particularly are terrible, like America is obviously going to absolute shit. Everyone's going to be worse off by 2030. Yeah, basically every kind of household. The OECD today was saying that Britain has got like the highest living tax or whatever the fuck

it is on people with like the lowest wages in the entire economic block. And it's like, you see that news every day and you're aware now that things are not going to change anytime soon unless something massive happens. So I think a lot of people are retreating into, God, I just want a bit of fun. Like, I just want a bit of fun. And this is a conversation I've been having with my agent particularly, because we've been talking a lot about publishing and the publishing market and what the market's looking for. And there's a huge, like a few years ago, your book that's just come out, I mean, I think you would always get a massive deal

because you're Ash Sarker, but a few, like a few years ago, books like yours, they were snapping for them. They all wanted analysis of like what's going on, what's happening, political situation. Publishers now are like, no, give us escape, give us fantasy. The audience want just pure fun and escapism and froth. And that to me is so indicative of this shift. And I think what you're saying to me is also kind of part of that, right? Cause I feel it myself. I'm like, I want to have a fucking good summer

in a way that I, and I feel ready for it. And it also feels kind of gross compared to like what's going on in the background. And it's a very odd feeling because it's a sentiment that I haven't expressed in such a way. Like every year I'm like, oh, summer, I'm looking forward to summer. This year I'm like, I want to bake in and just have the most fun it's possible for you to have. And inside that little word, those three letters, F-U-N, it's contained all kinds of longing for a past and maybe a sort of like blissful ignorance that I can't get back.

Or a version of myself that was lighter, that I can't get back. And to come back to what you're saying, especially with the stuff around like, I want to dance like no one's watching, which is... I want to feel the weight of my skin! But this for you is a real thing, because the Ash Sarkar of even a few years ago, there were less people watching. People knew you and they come up to you, but there was far less hostility that you could perceive. You were less well known. Obviously you had a massive platform, but you were less well known even then. And now it's gone up another level. And that combined with everything else and the curdling political situation where you're aware of how you sit within that

and how you're viewed, that is enough to make anyone be like, how do I get that back? How do I get back to that space? And it's really hard because I don't think there is a way to get back to that. So we have to ask instead, how can I learn to accept this

and enjoy myself regardless? See, I agree with lots of your analysis. The bit I disagree with is that it's not actually about going back. Okay. It's not actually about going back. Because the things in my life that I have, you know, there are so many changes

over that period of time, which also include getting married. Yes. Do you know what I mean? It's like, and part of me is going, not how can we be in our twenties again, because I'm really glad that neither of us are. Like, you know, that this is a partnership

of two people who are the same age, who are growing together. But it's going, okay, this is a lifetime commitment. And if we're lucky, we're gonna get very old together. We're gonna get so old and so batty and be in our rocking chairs and complaining about kids these days and that's what we're gonna do. So I want to make sure that we have got so many memories and experiences that we can remember and enjoy and immerse ourselves in again.

And when, you know, the last few years have really been shaped by me subordinating myself to things which are outside of my choosing in terms of bereavement and outside of his control in terms of things like my work, I want to say, hey, how do I make the choice of having fun for both of us? And it's different from the kind of, you know, and yes, there's a degree of hedonism in there, but it is different from when you're in your 20s and in particular when you're single and in your 20s, where there's also just like a note of drama, like running through everything, and you're kind of like running around like headless chickens. I don't wanna be a headless chicken.

I don't want to create volatility. I really like that my relationship and my home life is just the opposite of volatile. But for instance, my housemate who is very, very gregarious person, and he just does not give a fuck about what people think about him. And it's the thing which I like the most. I really, really like being around him for this.

And part of me is like, I want to be a bit more like you. And so it's less about how do I get something back, because there are things from my 20s that I'm very, very happy to leave behind. It's how can I feel like I've got a degree of control? And I've got some agency and I've got some choice about what kind of person I want to be like. And I think that this is something that I imagine many special ones can identify with, which is how do you create changes in yourself, not from a place of self loathing, not from a

place of dissatisfaction necessarily, but just I want to do this. I just want to. I actually totally agree when you like the more I think about it as well. It's like the intentionality of fun. There's two different types of fun that we're talking about here, which is the sort of the hedonistic, totally escapism, I want to blot out the world kind of fun that I think a lot of us have in our 20s when we're trying to find ourselves and you're just like chasing everything, chasing the dragon, staying out like disgusting, disgusting hours. Yeah, you know what, like being like, oh, it's only 4am, you know, what do I think is going to happen after? I was thinking, yeah, like six, I mean, like, oh, we still have loads of time.

No, sweetie. No, no. Like, just pushing things to like the absolute limits to discover what yours are. And then in your 30s, when you've kind of, I don't know, not everyone goes through this period, there's obviously people who discover they can't stop. There's obviously people who maybe go a completely different route, but a lot of my friends I've seen as we inch towards our thirties and now hit it, we've gone through the last three years of sort of like completely scaling back, still going out, still having fun. Some of us have stopped partaking in various drinking substances. Some of us continue, but have really moderated how they go about this. And there's a lot more, there's been a lot more onus put on sort of the daytime

activities, the dinners, the lunches, the going to galleries. And now I'm definitely seeing people be like, I want to have a massive laugh, I want to have fun. And that's also why I started my club night, because I was like, I can't stand to go to a random night where I don't enjoy the music anymore, just to be out and about. I want to go out and have fun with intention. What if I just did this thing, created this thing where I can listen to all the music that I want to listen to. Anyway, back to your question, which is how do I marry this intentionality of fun with the person that I also have become since 2019. And I guess the thing is, you have to identify the spaces where you start flexing the muscles of pushing those limits in a safe way again, of pushing my safety zones a bit further, or expanding them. So you've got the places you feel really safe already to go out and dance. What is a night where the music is so good

that right up your street where you can go and you can just dance and enjoy yourself and it might be a new space. There's actually a night in Shoreditch that's just pure R&B that I was gonna send to you, even though I hate Shoreditch. There's so many grime nights about, you love grime. It's, it sounds like really trite advice,

but the first thing's first is music, when you're getting back into the swing of going out dancing and the music, when also when you remove substances from the equation as the great lubricant, the music has to be something you can totally lose yourself in, otherwise you will just find yourself drinking to make the night easier.

That's, when people don't enjoy themselves, that's why Britain as well is such like a nation of borderline alcoholics and undiagnosed alcoholics because we have a real baked in normalization of if you're not enjoying yourself just have a drink until you do, which is possibly one of the unhealthiest approaches to life because Because if you're not enjoying yourself, then you should be able to tap into that feeling and think, I'm not enjoying myself. I'm actually gonna go home and save my energy for another night.

I'm gonna save my energy for something I really do enjoy. What do I actually enjoy? What actually makes me feel good? Like, why are we not asking that question? So I would kind of start there. Where's the music that you really wanna go to if this clubbing thing is how you're defining fun? Where's a new festival that you wanna try

like that's small and intimate that you would really like? There's that, it's not way out here. There's another smaller one that happens all the time that people go on about that I think you would love because it's literally just all of London taken into a random field. But it's that kind of thing. It's like, where's a space that I can,

that I know I still feel a bit safe that's adjacent to the space I'm already in where I can push myself outside of the comfort zone a little bit, but not enough that I'm feeling totally discombobulated and I have like an anxiety attack and I have to go home. But it's like, step by step, step by step. Like what actually does it mean to have fun for me?

Is it the beautiful music, is it the people? Identify those things and then follow them. I think, you know what, I think like for me a big part is people. So I was thinking about this because a couple of weeks ago it was a friend's birthday and he put on like karaoke like at a local pub and it was just, it was so much fun. And I also, I like, you know when a little daydream sort of comes true? So like another friend of mine was singing Ready or Not by the Fugees and was struggling to like get on beat.

And so I like grabbed the other mic and I was like, I've been training my whole life for this. Did you do the rap? I did, all three of them, all three of them. Did you do the rap? I did. All three of them. All three of them. Like.

And that's like, how good did you feel in that moment? I felt one, I felt so good. And two, like a friend of mine, like Phil, me singing like a different karaoke song, which was Rich Girl by Hall and Oates. And I was like, oh, I look like I'm having so much fun. And I was like, I was having so much fun. And it looked like I was having so much fun.

Other question is, how much organizing of these events do you do? Because obviously you organize things all the time but how much organizing of like fun events as you would put it? I'm very good at organizing dinners. I'm very good at organizing people coming to my house. What about outside of your house? Or, no. Like. What about a group of people in another space, like a pub or a large room that you might be doing a party. Yeah, you know what, a pub, I can do a pub,

I can do a pub, I think like maybe if it's something with music, I feel too much pressure for everyone to have fun. And I'm worried that it won't be good enough. Do you know what I mean? You gotta push past that. First of all, I've been to so many occasions where like someone's invited me and the music's a bit crap

and we all go in a group. And it's fine because I will just leave as soon as the music gets crap. As I pointed out, my philosophy since I hit 27 is if you're not having fun, just leave. But the bit before where you're hanging out and you're having a great time, that's the bit that you're there to feed off.

Like I would start organizing stuff, Ash. I would start inviting people to things. I am gonna do it. I am gonna take all of your advice. Do you know this? I'm just gonna take it and I'm not gonna think about it. This is homework, okay? You have to organize a hang at a musical event? You have to organize a hang at a musical event.

You have to organize a hang at a musical event. And I want you to identify a space, a festival, something that you and your partner are going to think at least about going to and trying. Because unless you stretch these muscles, you'll never know. But start with like park hangs. Get the Bluetooth speaker in the park. And I know you're not in the London fields.

I love a Bluetooth speaker. Bluetooth speaker, it's summer. Like there's so many ways to go out and forgive me, but I wonder if part of this as well is, and you might tell me I'm totally wrong, but when my friends talk about fun, there's also this element of like, I want an element of surprise.

I want someone random to enter the picture and to interact with them. And I kind of get that from what you were saying about like this fear of being surveilled in the wrong way. It's like these interactions that you might have had in the past where you meet someone that's really fun and nice, they feel maybe inaccessible to you now because instead people are a source of like fear

and uncertainty where they might actually be holding hostility towards you instead of just like a fun random encounter where you can just be like, hey, I'm this person. And that, I'm, I'm this person. And that person's like, I'm this person. And instead now you're Ash Sarker. And that's the thing. That's the thing that my housemate is so good at.

So, so good at like we were, we were at, um, at pub this night, a while ago now, we were just like out of the pub and then he was just like talking to some random dude, um, and the random dude turned out to be a really prolific bank robber. Which I need to know, we need to find out which one. But it's these things of like being able to interact with random people and not be scared of them. And it's something, I've only felt a little bit

of this fear recently about the surveillance and the idea that someone is judging me. And it comes from, I think quite reasonable concerns about stuff that I've heard that people have sort of like fed back, oh, I saw this person here, I saw this person here. And I'm like, you shouldn't be seeing me anywhere. Like I'm literally no one.

But when you like have that times 10, I understand how scary it is, but to push past that you just have to go and interact with people in a space where you feel kind of safe. I mean, could I put this to you as a question before maybe we move on to the dilemma? with people in a space where you feel kind of safe. Like apart. I mean, could I put this to you as a question before maybe we move on to the dilemma?

Is it, you know, yes, flex the muscles, but also just be a bit less scared of being embarrassed? Like a bit of embarrassment won't kill me. Embarrassment won't kill you. Is that a thing, it's interesting you say embarrassment, because you haven't brought that up till now. Do you associate embarrassment with this idea of being out there?

Yeah, and feeling worried about like, you know, because it has happened, like that, you know, something as simple as like a bunch of us Navarro people went to a pub not that far from the office. And I just shared a couple of jokes, or what I thought were just like normal jokes about just about nothing, like about allergies with the person working behind the bar, except then it turned out the person behind the bar like really fucking hated me

and then was like tweeting about it. And like took all the things I'd said, which were just like normal and then presented it in a way to make me appear up myself and weird and that, this was a person who I think had their own main character syndrome going, so like, oh, I bet she knew this about me. And I was like, I didn't know anything about you other than you were pouring me a maddery.

That's the only thing I knew. But like when things like that happen enough, where you're, even the tiniest interaction can be blown up and presented back to you and really distorted is that it makes me feel quite anxious about, yeah anxious about that interaction. Do you think I just need to like get over it and just be like, this is gonna happen.

That's fine, it's not gonna kill me. It's not gonna kill me. It's hard to like get over, but I think there's got to be some level of acceptance because that tension is always gonna be there now. Like with any sort of person who has a profile, that tension is there. You know, there's people that, famous people that I've met who I'm like, ah,

They were long as hell, but they were probably just long as hell to me on that particular day in that particular moment There's definitely people that I've met I'm not famous but like there's a people I've met when I've been in a badass mood And they'll be like, oh my god, she's such a bitch So There is a degree of like either you don't accept it and you stay shrunken in a cage and think, I don't get to enjoy my warm, gorgeous life, or you do accept that that is going to happen occasionally and just have to keep doing those CBT techniques when it does like, this is not a reflection on me.

This is about their own person's narrative. That is not anything, that is not my business. And think of all these other narratives that other people have that don't chime with this one. But I suppose like, and you know, where it comes from, and I wonder if other special ones will identify with this even if they don't have a public facing job, is that I do deep down think that it's my job to give everyone a good experience of me.

Well, you have to change that narrative. Like every single person I interact with. Like that's in my, that's so fucked up, but in my tough, tough ass love, there is a difference between being kind and empathetic and being a perfect person because a perfect person doesn't exist. There doesn't exist. And in fact, if you're trying to give everyone a good experience of you all the time, all you're giving is an inauthentic experience. And I don't mean you be a cunt to them, but I mean like if you were to constantly be,

there is someone very close to me who has a great pressure on themselves to be perfect at all times. And it freaks people out. It makes them think that that person is like a robot because they can sense that there's such work going into this like Richter smile and the attempt not to be either, I don't know,

overbearing or aggressive or I don't know, what's the word, like inconveniencing in any way. And you're like so perfect and so nice and like this all the time. And it really upsets me because I know that person and what they were like before this pressure became overwhelming for them. And I know the real them who's like sharp and witty

and sometimes really grumpy and really annoying but also like so fun. And if you go around all the time having to be on, I'm Princess Diana mode, it's not going to endear people to you any further. It will just make people think at best if they're already like massive fans, then they're gonna be like, oh, that was like Ash.

Oh, that was nice. But they won't think they've had like a real experience with you. Sometimes you just have to be really, you'll be like, oh, thank you very much. That was great. Have a convo and then move on. Like when I meet people, I definitely say things sometimes like,

bitch, I'm filtered and they'll come up and say stuff like, oh, I love the podcast. And I'll say, oh, and they'll be like, how are you today? Blah, blah, blah. Like I've got to go now because I do have to go. I've got to go do stuff. But I hope I'm giving them the very, I don't have in my head that I have to give them the perfect experience of myself. I'm just like, they're kind of, I'll be nice because I've got no reason not to be nice, but they're getting what they're getting because otherwise the weight on me is gonna mean that I'm constantly performing in a way

that is just unsustainable and will cause you to break down. I think that is very wise advice. But before we move on to I'm in big trouble, I just want to say there were three of us in this marriage. So it was a bit crowded. You know I can't do impressions, so I'm just going to leave you. Shall we move on to I'm in big trouble? Before we read it out, we need to tell people how they can find help

if they are in a moment of distress. You should email ifispeakatnavaramedia.com. That is ifispeakatnavaramedia.com. There is no problem at too small or too medium. I need to give a disclaimer, which is we might give shit advice. I feel like we haven't given this disclaimer enough because- Oh yeah, I thought that was abundantly clear.

Yeah, we need to tell you, we're not qualified, we're not professionals, and we might give shit advice. We're not all testament prophets. We might give advice that makes you think poorly of us, or you might think we haven't done a good enough job, and in which case, please write in because we will probably read out your better advice. But it's also like the thing about a parasocial relationship

is that you want someone to feel like a friend. Name me one friend of yours that always gives good advice. You don't have one. I actually do have one person who gives me good advice constantly. At some point, they'll give you some advice that doesn't hit the mark because they're a human being. Yes, yeah, yeah. but they are really good advice.

Okay, all right, do you wanna read it out? Okay, let's go. Dear Ashen Moyer, hope you're well. Big fun on the show and I found it really helpful recently. You guys are great, I love the recently, like before it wasn't hitting, but recently. You've been on fire. I have a sort of dilemma,

but more something I think your advice on would be both useful and interesting. At my uni, all of the student council positions are split into roles representing different identity groups. There are six roles. Neurodivergent Officer, Disabilities Officer, Minority Ethnic Officer, International Officer, LGBTQ Plus Officer, Trans and GNC officer. Don't get me wrong,

I do not want to diminish the value of minority representation. I think there should be roles like this within the Student Union, but these are the only positions in the Student Council. It is impossible for someone who doesn't fit into these categories to stand for Student Council, and if someone fits into multiple categories, they have to prioritise an aspect of their identity to represent. I'm not out here crying over able bodied, neurotypical cis straight men,

straight white men, sorry I missed one out. But it feels problematic. It is not possible for them to run for student council. I myself, a queer and dyslexic, but would really not feel comfortable running for either role. I'm not very ingrained with either culture. I just sleep with men and struggle to spell. Get that on a t-shirt!

Most problematically, it makes lots of students disengage and not vote as well as disincentivising candidates to have policies. I didn't vote and I love voting for things. Especially when you're really funny. From my reading, only one candidate even used policy language, running for an LGBTQ plus officer on a mandate of, I will make seagulls gay, and she won. I'm a first year and I'm thinking of trying to get involved with student politics, especially as I've increasingly come across real issues with the institution. Outsourced halls, expensive travel, expensive cafeteria food, and a fucking cost of franchise in the SU bar.

Now that is egregious stuff. Cost is bad. It feels like you need- It's just milk. It was just such bad coffee. It feels like the uni is restricting student representation over the guys embracing identity politics. I don't really know how to complain or campaign about it without appearing as anti-woke and manospheric, especially as I'm a white man. But I just really don't like the fact my student council seems to be a vehicle for the university's virtue signal. Would love to hear what you think. Many thanks. What do you think, Ash? You wrote a book. This is so interesting.

You wrote a book and received both praise and critique for the identity politics section. So I feel like you should go first. Okay. Well, the first thing is that it's funny seeing how many places this exact dynamic is playing out. So in your case, special one in terms of the institution of the university and the student council, it's formalized, which is here are the identity groups. And if you don't fit into it, then you can't participate. But even in a much more informal sense, I've seen this playing out. So two people who are very, very close to me, one who is a white and working class man, uh, didn't go to uni. Uh, the other is a woman of color who I think did go to uni and they were talking

about kind of affirmative action, hiring and positive discrimination. And the white and working class man was saying, you know, oh, well, I just think it should be about talent and qualification. And then she was sort of saying, you know, but you're saying this because you're a white guy. And it was so interesting to me that in their conflict, there was so little room for there to be a sense of simultaneity that it didn't have to be either or necessarily, and that there was also no room to talk about class. Because it was like the framing of like, really it's about right wing versus liberal conflict just like took over. And the idea that you can come from any other kind of place, right? That you don't have to either be anti-woken, Manasferica, as you put it, special one, and you also don't have to be neoliberal,

id-pol. Like that space didn't exist. So that's a long way around of me saying that you, if you feel strongly enough about this to want to do something about it, will be occupying a really difficult position. You'll be occupying a really difficult position and you're going to be trying to carve out space which doesn't yet exist for you. And I think that the way you can do it and not be manospheric and anti-woke is start collecting like-minded people because I bet that there are going to be lots of people, including people who fit those identity categories who don't feel comfortable with this being the way that it's done. And going back to the Neolithic era, when I was a student, you know, I remember

that there were some people operating in bad faith who, because transgender people could run for women's officer, there were cisgender men running for the same category to like take the piss out of the whole idea. One of the problems is that, you know, that there will be these sort of, um, you know, anti woke provocateurs. And maybe if you get on the front foot and you start collecting those like-minded people who aren't coming from that political place, you're actually closing down the room for people with really bad intentions to come along and take up that space.

Um, so find some like-minded people. Um, I, I don't, because I don't know what uni you're talking about. Um, and it's a bit unclear to me. Do you mean student council? Do you mean student union? Because my, well, cause I mean, again, like I thought it'd be crazy if your student union didn't have a sports officer or a welfare officer. I was saying student council. Sorry, I was completely wrong. Student council.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe the student union has got a way of, you can test those elections instead and then it gives you a sort of platform on which to, you know, take aim at reforming the student council, but there are more avenues of openness going that way. And then you can organize to change the student council and be really clear that you're not coming from a anti-white place. I mean, I think that one of the strongest arguments you can make is that you've got all these identity categories and nothing that mentions class at all. And you couldn't really have a class category. That's a useful way to start exploding this framework. And to say that, you know what,

you can't reduce politics to identity, nor should you, nor should you. I don't know, what do you reckon? I mean, I reckon student politics is for losers. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm so sorry, everyone. What a waste of your beautiful time. No, I actually think this is a fantastic email written very clearly and I would agree with Ash. First of all, you need to collect allies and create a little coalition, as it were. And then I think you need to write a little manifesto in almost exactly the same way you've written this email,

which is, look, this is this platform we're running on. These are the issues we care about, the cost of the student union, the what else did you say? The outsourced tours, expensive travel. Here's some solutions that we want to pursue. Or these are these are things we want to campaign on. These are the people behind it. Here we are. These are our politics. And this is why we don't really agree with the setup of the student council as it is. You need to run on a platform just like cut through the noise party, the cut through the noise coalition and emphasize above all, like Ash says, that you were drawn together by focusing on the things that actually matter to students and that identity and class intersect and that you can factor them in to this.

They are the foundation of what you were doing, but you are not siloing them because people together are stronger than people apart, and you want to get the student population engaged and everyone on board in these struggles. That's the best way. I wouldn't put it, cloak it in like, even all this language of like, oh, I'll do it. Students sometimes get a bit a little bit too

in the weeds of theory. Don't do that. Just straight talk like you've done in your email. If you wanna get involved, find some people, write a blog. A blog is always a great way to start and you will get pushback from people. That's the first thing. You will get pushback and you have to learn

to take that on board and not blurt your entire mission or feel personally attacked, even if the attacks are personal, by that. Stick to what you have got here because you've got very good foundational principles here and I think they will carry you far. But the other thing I would say is, if you are frustrated by this,

you could also go out and have fun. No, I'm joking, I'm joking. Do what you're doing, because what you're doing actually could change things for the better, for all students. And if you get people on board, then you are much more likely to do that, because when you're on island, you're isolated,

and you feel bad and resentful. When you are together with people, you you're much more likely to do that. Because when you're on island, you're isolated and you feel bad and resentful. When you are together with people, you feel heard and there's power there. And also there's a very simple point to be made here, which is if the only way in which you can be politically represented is to have an identity category, but none of those categories are for, you know, straight cisgender white men. Don't be surprised when you start raising the salience of Manosphere, you know, white nationalist politics. Do you know what I mean? Because you're saying, well, the only way through is to have an identity. And if you're not, if you're not of that, you can't be represented. And I don't think that you're suggesting that there should be a straight, white,

male, cis, average height. I don't know. Like you're not saying this, but if you don't have political representation, which is capable of saying we're going to represent a much broader coalition than an identity group, don't be surprised when you're raising the salience of the kinds of identities that actually you don't think are politically useful to organize around. Don't be surprised. Universalism is important. Should we wrap up? Let's wrap up. If you start your cut through the noise coalition, then let us know because I'd like to see how it goes. I would love to know. I'd like to see, yeah I'd like to see how that goes. This has been

If I Speak with me Moelody MacLean and you... Anti-woke crusader numero uno. Right we'll see you next week. Bye! Just saying that to wind you up. Bye.