If I Speak - 59: Does my ex owe me money for the house we renovated?

Episode Date: April 8, 2025

Moya and Ash offer advice to a special one who’s lost everything after renovating a house with their ex. Plus: what if some of us are ‘relationship people’ while the rest are better off alone? We’re now yapping on TikTok! Follow us @ifispeakpod. Send your dilemmas to [e-mail] Music by Matt Huxley.

Hello and welcome to another episode of If I Speak. I don't wanna say it's a beautiful spring day because it might not be by the time this is pumping through your little ear drums, but hypothetically, it's a beautiful spring day when we're recording it, which is definitely not in the past. Ash, how are you?

You are like a little bit operatic in your delivery today. So you're like, hello, this is if I speak. Yeah, this reminds me of that meme of Azulio Banks. Have you ever seen it where it's the pig singing on a ship and someone was like, that's how Azulio Banks, have you seen that meme? No. Okay, so there's a pig on a ship and it sings like this and someone said, and it's like, hello, hello there. Hi there, boy. And someone was like, that's how Zaleo Banks sings. And it literally is how Zaleo Banks sings because she sings like, I'm at chasing time. She's got this amazing trained voice that she did at LaGuardia, but it's very high. Like a Broadway voice.

Yeah. It's edging Broadway, but it's not quite got that much control, but she's actually a very good singer. My favorite sort of like, I guess like old timey classic Broadway song is like Meet Me in St. Louis, which is the one where it's like, clang, clang, clang with the trolley. You know, I never heard it all the way through, but I know. Sing, sing, sing, one of my heartstrings. Yeah, know exactly what you're talking about. Proper old school, like you're seeing a musical vibes. Know this fucking Lin-Manuel Miranda

rapping on stage about the founding father shit. I don't want rapping in my musical. I want jazz hands. Jazz hands, baby. And New York City. Okay, right. Let's go. New York City. New York. Before we get into the questions, I have an amazing email that we got sent, which is so sweet that I have to read out to you. And I don't know if you've seen this yet, and I presume you have because you're on the script,

but I'm just going to read it and I want your reaction, which is from a special one. Dear Moya and Ash, thank you so much for the podcast, which keeps me awake and present during long commutes up and down the A9, Glasgow to Inverness and back. Shout out Glasgow. It's going to be like shout out safe driving. Yeah, shout out safe driving. I love the sharpness and the wisdom and the compassion. I wanted to ask- This actually hurts my heart a little bit. I wanted to ask, and forgive me if you already talked about the naming of the podcast and I missed it. Does the podcast title come from the part in

the Bible, 1 Corinthians 13, which begins slightly paraphrased, if I speak but have not love, I am nothing. Just wondering. Ben. Ben. That's so sweet because that's like the opposite. That is such a beautiful quote. If I speak without, what does it say? If I speak without love, if I speak but have not love, I am nothing. That is such a beautiful, pure of heart, faith-driven quote. It's so pure and it's so not the person that we're actually quoting. So anti the ethos of the bitter revengeful petty man that this podcast is named after, which is the one, the only Jose Mourinho. No, no, no, no, no.

You did the Spanish pronunciation. I can't, oh, did I? Did I Spanish? Yes, you said Jose. Oh, how's he actually say it? Jose. Jose, sorry. He's Portuguese, right?

Am I fucking that up? Where's he from? Yes, yes. He's Portuguese. Okay, Jose. Jose Mourinho. Jose, see, he would be so pissed off if I'd got that wrong.

He would, I would be on his enemies list. And it comes from, Ash, explain where it comes from because you are the football head. I prefer not to speak. If I speak, I am in big trouble. He was asked, what was he asked about? About a refereeing decision. That was it. And he was trying, he,

Josie Mourinho is probably one of the best shade throwers in the world, because as we all know, you throw shade by not having to explicitly say the thing. I think that, to paraphrase another quote, shade, a read is when I tell you you're ugly. Shade is when I don't have to tell you you're ugly because we both know you're ugly. Shade is when you know you're ugly. Yeah.

And Josie Mourinho. Dorian Carey, Corey, from Paris is Burning. Josie Mourinho did not have to say how he felt. We all knew. So, you know, this person from Paris is Burning who we're referencing, I don't know what pronouns they went by in life, but they were a drag artist and they were sort of the like, the, you know, they could tell you about the history of drag and the art form and the involvement of black people and people of color. But you know, after they died,

they discovered a dead body wrapped in plastic in their dressing room. Yes, yes, I do know that. I actually, I very much do know that. Another part of the crazy law surrounding the people of Paris, I was gonna call them Paris, and I was like, it's not, no, they're real people, they're flesh and blood people of Paris. I was gonna call them carrots and I was like, it's not, no, they're real people. The flesh and blood people of Paris is burning

and the legacy they left, just like so many stories. But yes, I do know about the dead body, but I can't remember the exact circumstances of if Dorian was pegged as the murder or not. But I do remember the dead body. I think if the dead body's in your dressing room. Well, sometimes you could just be an accomplice. You probably had something to do.

Oh, you have something to do with it. But did you do it? That's the real question. Anyway, let's pose some other questions because Ash, it's time for 73 Questions Minus 70, where this time you are asking me three questions. Let's go. Okay, question the first. where this time you are asking me three questions. Let's go. Twa.

Twa. Okay, question the first. Based on a conversation we were just having before we went live, what makeup trend do you refuse to engage with? So many because I can't do makeup. So it's actually silly for me to engage with a lot of makeup trends

because my makeup skills are so poor. There's ones I've tried too. Any type of eyeliner I engage with a lot of makeup trends because my makeup skills are so poor. There's ones I've tried too. Any type of eyeliner I've tried a lot and looks terrible on me because I have oily eyes where it just comes off immediately. Also, I don't put enough makeup on. You have to put lots of makeup on for the makeup to sit in the first place. That's another thing. But I'm going to just pick the one that we talked about, which is I'm not putting the fucking blue peel-off stuff on my lips. It is a gimmick. There's enough lip stains in this world where I do not have to peel things off.

I have a very good one that I use all the time. It's Dior, darlings, from my sister. Ooh. But that wonder stain stuff, where it's like you're putting the blue things on your lips, that is just a gimmick, okay? They're selling you a dream. I need to know how long it actually stays,

but I'm not spending every morning peeling stuff off. There's so much of the beauty trends nowadays just add extra steps into a routine to make us feel like we're doing something lasting. And it is very impressive the way that brands manage to inject more things to do to make us feel like we're doing more scientific stuff to our faces. Even when we're not from wonder stains to the various, when people beauty influencers put makeup on now they drip it onto their face because it's more

pleasing. It looks like they're doing like a pipette situation like sciency and then see the foundation or skincare or whatever the whole, you know, morning shed thing as well. All you need is the Homer Simpson Blonderbuss, you know? Like shoes, smart things. So I won't be doing the Wonderstain, I'm afraid to say. Okay, question two. What's the last thing to make you cry? Oh, it's actually very thing to make you cry?

Oh, it's actually very sad. Oh no. It was the 24th Palestinian journalist, Hussam Shabat, who was killed. That was the last thing to make me cry. And I think the thing about when a genocide is going on is the worst thing is when it becomes the hum. And for so many people, it's not the hum, it's the forefront. But there is an element of when you are living in the West, it becomes, it does become, I don't want to ever say normalised.

It's not normalised, but it becomes integrated into parts of the everyday, the news coming out every single day about what's been happening. And I think because so many of us had followed him for so long, and he was in northern Gaza as well. And it's like every day you would check to see if this reporter was alive and he would still be alive and he's still reporting. It's almost like this Sam as well. And I couldn't believe it. I actually, when the news came up, I was obviously on Instagram and someone posted that he'd just been killed. And I went, oh! Like that.

And it feels silly in some ways because this person is one person that has so many, I think it's like 500,000, I'm moving on, so 50,000 in official figures being given, but it's obviously so much higher than that. And yet the parasocial relationships, I think, formed with him as well as him being a colleague, a global colleague.

So when I saw that news and when I saw the videos, I cried quite a lot. Anyway. I don't think it's silly. I don't think it's silly. I find myself... It's not silly, but it's like, I don't have a relationship with this man. No, no, but I don't think it's silly. I find myself. It's not silly, but it's like, I don't have a relationship

with this man. No, no, but I don't, I don't think it's that. I mean, like what, what it is with the genocide that will make you cry, it will vary from person to person. So for me, when I see the death of a journalist and you know, dozens and dozens of Palestinian journalists have been murdered by Israel. I mean, yes, you know, over a hundred have been murdered by Israel and there's evidence to suggest that they've been deliberately targeted for the crime of doing journalism, reporting on an ongoing.

His car took a direct strike. It's just, so I hear that and I feel rage is the emotion I feel. I feel an emotion of rage. When I've seen the images of children, I've also felt rage. Where I've cried, it's sometimes not been to do with death necessarily, but the images that you see sometimes

of children separated from their parents or separated from their family. And there's something about that, and something about that fear, because you can remember what it was like being a kid and feeling really scared sometimes, and it would last for a moment. It would last for a moment of you being separated

from somebody, and it would be in objectively quite safe settings. And that's been the thing which has made me cry. The other thing's made me feel rage, but that was the thing that's made me cry. The other thing's made me feel rage, but that was the thing that's made me cry. I suppose final question. Right now, out of 10, how well do you feel like you know yourself?

Oh. Maybe a seven. A seven. Maybe a seven. I think I would have said like an eight or nine, maybe even six months ago, but maybe six to seven, because I think I'm going through a massive period

of change or things clicking into place that have been brewing for a long time. And what that has done is given me like a really exciting, not blank canvas, I'm not a blank canvas, I'm 30, there's no blankness here, but a new page to fill in where I'm writing all my new narratives about who I am now and updating. The software's being updated. So I'm having to come to terms with parts of myself

that maybe I didn't want to acknowledge or recognise and other parts of myself and that I perhaps embrace too much and need to let go of. So it's a very exciting time. So it's a really good seven. It's a seven of, this is a seven of potential opportunity, not a seven of I feel so lost.

A seven of possibility. Yes, exactly. What's yours? What's your number? Ooh, right now I feel like an eight. Lovely, lovely. I feel like an eight, possibly an 8.5. Solid foundations, very solid foundations. That's a good place to start.

But it shifts and it moves. I'll tell you what, Ash, time is moving so quickly. How is it, like, April? This is going on in April. Time is moving fast and we have to embrace it. Like, this is going on in April. Time is moving fast and we have to embrace it. I am breaking the IIS rules this week, creating a new hybrid category

that I like to call intrusive question. So never say that we don't innovate on this show because I didn't think this, I did think this was quite an intrusive thought, but I thought it was also a bit of a mystery question. So it's an intrusive question. Intrusive question. Right. We did big intrusion before, right?

Big intrusion, did we do that? It was like half theory, half intrusive question. Love to play with formats and words. So a friend and I were having a debate the other day. She described someone as a relationship person and I said, hang on, what does that actually mean? And she was like, well, lots of men aren't relationship people, they're not actually looking for a relationship.

And I disagreed. And I said, I think most people are looking for a relationship, they're just super ill-equipped to find one and not really sure of the qualities they want in the partner. And she said, no, I think some people actually are more predisposed to want relationships than others. Well, she didn't say predisposed, I'll be fair to her. She said, I think some people naturally

just are more comfortable in relationships, they want a relationship and that makes them a relationship person. And I was like, no, that doesn't track for me. I feel like a lot of people want that relationship. So my question to you is, do relationship people even exist? What the fuck does it even mean? Why do we use it so freely?

And are some people more predisposed to thrive in relationships than others? Debate. I have more questions before I can get my teeth into it. So first is, I think I need to know a little bit more about what marks a relationship person. Is it that they're a serial monogamist? Is it that they go into dating with a really firm sense

of what is they want? And what they want is a committed relationship. So that's what they're looking for. And they're not going to, you know, mess about in the situationship era and stuff like that. Is it that they've got qualities which are conducive to building a committed long lasting relationship? Like I think I need more information on what this is. So my friend is super smart, so she wouldn't use, I feel bad now that she says she wouldn't use the first one,

but I want to use the first one because I think it will speak to more people. She was referring to somebody who's super, who's super, super intentional about that they want a relationship, that they want a committed, that they want a committed, monogamous relationship specifically, but I think we can get onto talking about

whether a relationship person is monogamous. But yeah, she was talking about someone who's very clear that they want a committed relationship and they're very intentional about that. Whereas I think what we should talk about is the first one more broadly, because when we say relationship person, it tends to be someone who describes themselves as,

you know, I love being in relationships, I'm better in relationships, or their friends or people around them say, oh, they are a relationship person, they're always in a relationship. So it's probably gives us a wider scope, but she was talking about the second. And the third didn't come into it.

Okay. And I suppose, I suppose also like to be a relationship person, does that mean that your desire for a relationship has to be met by reality? Because I suppose I know lots of people of, you know, various genders and sexual orientations who say that what I really want is a committed relationship, but for a variety of reasons, and I think we can get into whether or not those differences are marked by gender, then that's not what's happening for them. So I suppose, you know, is what it means to be a relationship person marked by your desire, or is it marked by what's happening? Do you see what I mean? Well, that's why I want to say, do relationships exist?

I think when we talk about relationship people, we're talking about people who are consistently in relationships. Or, yeah, we're talking about people who are consistently in relationships, and say they are better in relationships than out of it. That's what I think we're talking about. But I want to obviously unpick the latter thing, because my thesis is everyone's a fucking relationship person. There's no such thing as a relationship person, because I think so many of us are searching for connections. That might be monogamous, that might be polyamorous, although everyone who looks for polyamorous... No, who looks at polyamorous,

no, I'm not gonna go that way, I'm joking, I'm joking. I need to stop being so flippant on Mike because I realize that there is an audience who is deeply invested and who might be very hurt by me making pointed rude jokes. I get that, but I think if we weren't flippant, I think if we weren't flippant, the thing about flippant is that obviously you run

the risk of your words having impacts that you don't intend and that doesn't mean you're not responsible for that but there has to be a bit of give, a bit of give. Imagine if we weren't flippin' you wouldn't listen to this. Okay I will rephrase my joke to say and those who are polyamorous about 90% of you shouldn't be polyamorous and need to learn what polyamory actually is, there we go. But my thesis is there is no such thing as a relationship person. But then I think of someone like you, Ash, who I'm like, wife guy all day long. The wifey-est of wife guys. And I guess what I want to boil down is we're quite good examples, right?

Because I am somebody who is hyper, hyper, I would say, avoidant, and it's getting worse. Like it is, my friends are having words with me about it. Over the last few months, my levels of avoidance, which is definitely becoming more entrenched. And I've started to use it as a descriptor, which you shouldn't do it shouldn't be an identity characteristic. When you start doing that, I think there shouldn't do. It shouldn't be an identity characteristic. When you start doing that, I think there's clear signs. It's getting a bit worrying. And then there's you who's in a like secure, happy relationship.

But definitely, I think from your dating history, what you said to me, prefers being in a relationship than maybe being out of it, even though you can be out of one. Whereas I'm... It's funny that you say that. I don't see myself that way. You say that, but think of like consistent relationships. Whereas I suppose it's like how we think of ourselves. So maybe I don't, even though I've had three relationships,

one of them quite short, I would say, like four months, in my twenties and two of them long, longer term, like two years and three and a half years. But even then I think of myself as someone who isn't drawn to relationships. So the narratives we tell ourselves here are also very interesting. I'd like to get into those.

Okay, so the first thing I thought of when you were presenting your intrusive question was a situation that a friend of mine was in not that long ago which is she was seeing somebody and it was quite, while I wouldn't say it was necessarily emotionally intense like they weren't on the roller coaster of emotion there was certainly a high degree of emotional intimacy, but he described himself as just, I'm not a relationship person

and I don't think this is ever gonna happen for me. And it put her in a dynamic, I think, of like, you know, trying to work out like, you know, oh shit, am I trying to persuade him, dah, dah, dah, dah, it didn't work out. And then not loads of time afterwards, I would say a respectable period of time. He ended up in a committed relationship

where he felt very happy. And I think in a sort of blundering way sort of was saying to my friend how happy he was now. And so she felt like, well, why am I the girl before the girl? And so in her mind, the way in which she pieces together and forms connections between experiences, one of the things she said is like, why am I the girl before the girl?

Like, you know, you say that you can't be in a relationship with me because you just can't see that happening for you at all. And then suddenly it happens. And I was thinking about this. And the first thing is that it's, you know, the way in which we internalize the things that have happened in relationships or dating situations, it's just, it can be so corrosive.

It can be so, so corrosive because it doesn't matter what your friends say or what the people who love you say, you're always inclined to go, well, the common denominator is me. And then you go looking for failure in yourself and it's something which can just really like rip out the self-belief from a person.

But the second thing I was sort of interested in was like this guy who was so, I don't think he was just fronting. Like I think he felt very, very certain that like a relationship wasn't going to happen for him until it did. And so his sense of who he was, relationship person versus not relationship person, it switched and it switched as those circumstances did. And, you know, who knows, who knows if this relationship that he's in is going to work out. It might be, you know, something which is lifelong. I can't say, I've got no idea. But I think that if you'd have asked me before me and my partner got together,

whether or not I was a relationship person, I would have said no. And that's because my sense of self and the situation I was in, these things were mirroring each other. And various things had to happen before those things could shift. things had to happen before those things could shift. One ingredient was realizing that I didn't want situationship, that that wasn't making me happy and actually it was like undermining my sense of self. Second thing was me having to realize that nothing is better than something I don't really want.

And having to really feel it and believe in it. So it wasn't just a sort of abstract principle I was holding in my head. I was feeling it in the entirety of my body. My behavior and my thoughts and what Third thing was I had to, I think, be less afraid of rejection by putting what I want on the table. So I think sometimes this thing of I'm not a relationship person, it can come from a real place of fear, a fear that if you put that desire into words, what you'll experience is rejection and it will hurt all the more because you put yourself out there. And then of course, last but not least is meeting the person who in that moment,

we were very much in alignment and then going through the relationship and experiencing times when we were less in alignment, we both had the tools and the will to bring ourselves back together. So I guess that's a really long way round of saying that I think there is such a temptation to look at the situation that we're in and essentialize it to being something that comes from deep within us. And I just don't feel like that's true. I think that people who call themselves relationship people and are serial monogamists, shall we say, right?

People who are like monkeys holding onto branches and they can't let go of one until they've gotten hold of the other. They might say, well, this is just an expression of who I am. No, I think that's self and situation mirroring each other and being mutually reinforcing. And for whatever reason, you can't let in that chink of daylight, which would allow change to occur. And then on the other hand, people go, well, I'm just not a relationship person. This is never going to happen for me. Well, that's because, you know, all these ingredients, right? Self-knowledge, self-ownership,

a feeling of emotional resilience, you know, all these things just weren't cooked enough yet for you. And more life will happen and those things can and will change. I don't know. What do you think about those things? Well, I've got a sub theory, right? and those things can and will change. I don't know, what do you think about those things? Well, I've got a sub theory, right? Which is, everyone is very maladjusted. And some people are maladjusted in a way

which makes them cling on to other people. And some people are maladjusted in a way which makes them push other people. This is romantically, but it can obviously be like, platonic, et cetera, that makes them push other people. This is romantically, but it can obviously be like, we just wanna kill et cetera. That makes them push others away. And I've been noticing recently among my age group and close friends,

how as we inch into our 30s, we get sicker. A lot of us are not getting better. We're actually getting worse because I think, and again, generalisation, I think a lot of us assumed that the problems would iron themselves out, that someone would come along and the way we would react to them would help us relationally work it out. But if you have either of those issues, you can't just depend on another character entering your life, who you will then be ready to work it out with.

Like it might happen. It so might happen. But it also, take me for example. Did I tell the story before about my friend who's met someone they're dating and how that made me really reflect on my avoidance? Have I told that? I probably told that.

No. Really? I swear I've told that recently. I'm gonna repeat that story and listeners, I'm so sorry if I've told that already, but I talk about a lot of things to a lot of people so I can't remember what I've said and when. I feel like I haven't heard this.

And I'm sincere in that feeling. Okay, well, in the words of Plan B covering a song by a band, I can't remember. Stop me if you think that you've heard this one before. The Smiths. The fucking Smiths. It is the Smiths, isn't it? Well, let me just say there is a light that never goes out. So tell me about how your friend met this charming man.

So, oh, now we're cooking. Okay. So my friend has met someone that they are seeing, going well. And they just met the my RL and they had a breakup, a respectable amount of time ago from a large relationship. And in between... A large relationship? Well, a long term relationship. Very good. And in between, a long-term relationship, a significant relationship,

they had a breakup a respectable amount of time ago, at least 12 months. And in between that they saw someone, but it wasn't quite right, so eventually they ended it. In that time, I have dated precisely no one. I have been on dates, I have not dated anyone, my sexual activity has been limited to one or two night things, and seeing my friend meet this person, this new person IRL, and get on with them, made me realize how much of the problem is me.

Even if you want to, you can call it a problem, or how much agency I problem is me, even if you want to, you can call it a problem, or how much agency I actually have in this situation, how closed off I actually am to potentials. Because my friend is not closed off, my friend is the opposite of me, and is very open to potentials. And I've done a lot of work as well on, you know,

how they enter relationships, like None of us are healed, let's just put it like that. But a lot more open to seeing someone and being able to pursue that. Whereas I look at that situation and I'm like, oh my God, it was me, that all of me. It's not like, obviously there's the normal excuses, the market's terrible, oh, X, Y, Z. But at the end of the day, I'm not open and I haven't been open. Even if I think I am and I'm starting to get closer to the idea of like, I want a relationship,

I want something intentional long-term, my actual actions and the actual way that I'm going around to the world does not back that up, right? The actual way I'm going about meeting people, entertaining options does not back that up. When either there has been someone who is a real potential, sacked it off. When there is someone who is clearly when there is someone who is clearly unserious, yeah, let's have a go. Let's have a fucking go, mate. So-

Clowny shoes. The narratives, and I've had a lot of friends come to me recently as well, something's in the air, I think, has come to me recently and asked me, why never me? Why can't I find love? And I have said, because you actually don't want it.

Because you, well, no, you want it, but you are not taking the action that would even open you up to it. You want it, but you're not open to it. Because when there is a person in front of you who you actually, you know, could have something with or you actually are attracted to, you're so scared of what that will do to you,

that whatever reason is, is self-sabotage, or you move away, or I've seen it happen time and time again. It's made me so much more aware of how much I do it myself as well. whatever reason is self-sabotage or you move away or I've seen it happen time and time again. It's made me so much more aware of how much I do it myself as well. And these narratives, I think a lot of young women tell themselves about being, you know, I just can't find someone, I can't find someone. Some of it's true. A lot of it's us. A lot of it's us being like, I'm not having that person for that reason. I'm not having that person for that reason. I'm not, you're not actually open to this. I think avoidance and fear of making a decision and committing to something is

so much more rife now. And that's because of not to go with Eva Ilywitz, but the economic circumstances and the way that choice is presented to us. Uh, and the idea that, you know, making a decision will affect our social status, all of that kind of stuff, like all bound up in that. a decision will affect our social status, all of that kind of stuff, like all bound up in that. But I do think we outsource this idea that this is actually reflection on ourselves and we're powerless over it and helpless, or I'm not a relationship person, it's never going to happen for me. These are narratives we tell ourselves. So then they become true, like you say, they become

a mirroring and a reflection of the situation reflects itself. But so much of me not getting into a relationship or me not meeting someone is about me. Like, sweetie, if I really wanted a boyfriend, I'd have a boyfriend tomorrow. It's funny listening to you because there is a mirror image of you. It is funny listening to you. End of sentence. It's funny listening to you. Welcome to If I Speak. It's funny listening to you because there is a mirror image of you in my life who is a heterosexual male, yes ladies, he's single and a very, very, very close friend. Hook us up. Let's get mad together. But how he feels, and he's, he's in the exact same situation. It's been a very long time since his last relationship.

Um, he similarly just isn't interested in dating. And I think, well, not, I think I know that he thinks about it in a way which is very, very different from you. And rather than seeing it as like, I'm avoidant, I'm this, I'm that, his take on it is, well, I'm just waiting for love to come and batter down the door. That's how I've experienced love before and that's how I want to experience it again. And he's really comfortable with that. He's really comfortable with that. He's really comfortable with that. And you might think that he's wrong and you might think that his expectations are too high, but he's just waiting for love to come and batter down the door and he doesn't want to treat, and this is me putting words in his mouth, but coming from knowing

him very well. I think he thinks, you know what, I've got enough chores and I've got enough jobs and I don't want to make seeking love, seeking a relationship into a job. I want the clap of thunder, the voice from the burning bush, terrible phrase for this, for talking about romantic love. but what he wants is, is, is for, um, the coup de foudre they call it in France. Yes. It might be coup de foudre. It's lightning bolt. The lightning bolt.

He wants, he wants the lightning bolt and he's just very happy living his life until that lightning bolt happens. And there's another friend of mine, also a heterosexual male, not single, ladies, I'm afraid. And I think that when he was in his early-ish mid-ish thirties, he was just like, I just don't think that a relationship relationship is going to really happen for me. Like, you know, and if you want to talk about avoidance, I mean, you are like little baby compared to this particular friend of mine, you are like little, little baby.

He's engaged and you know, him and his partner have been together for, you know, quite a few years now. They're very, they compliment each other very, very well. They've built a world together, which is just really, really beautiful to see. And I'm getting choked up thinking about it because I just get so happy when my friends are happy. I'm just so happy for both of them.

But I think that if he, if you'd asked him eight years ago, where would his life be now, he would not have pictured her, their relationship, their commitment, their plans for living life together. And I wonder if there's something in that, which is, you know, entering your thirties is so loaded and like we have all of this cultural baggage, which comes from earlier periods in history, which is, you know, by the time, you know, your mother or it might be your

grandmother or whatever, like was your age, they would have a kid, they would have a marriage, they might even have their first divorce. And so we carry those expectations also, so knowing we live in a very different kind of time. The economic circumstances are really, really different, social norms are really different, and these things are colliding, right? They're colliding with each other. The expectation that we have from the past and the knowledge that we have of the present, right? And it's chaotic. And I wonder if we fill that chaos with these sort of thoughts which are attempting to wrangle it into an order. And the thing that it can't account for is just, you know, a lot of love is outside of your control. And so my friend who is single has just accepted this. My friend who is engaged has experienced

this. And I suppose I think that there are things that you can do to ready yourself for being a good partner if the thing comes along. And I think that if I'd met, you know, a partner to whom I married earlier, I probably wouldn't have the toolkit that would have been able to create the committed relationship that we have now. But I couldn't engineer meeting him. Yeah. And I also think I actually, in terms of my feelings about being single, I'm very much like your friend. Whereas I do not expect love to batten down my door.

I also don't particularly want it. Like I know if I'm really ready for it, I'd go and try and find it. Whereas I talk all the time like, fucking have to compromise? All the admin that goes into having a partner? Getting in the way of my work? Are you kidding?

I've got so much to do. But then if the thing's better's down your door. But if the thing's better's down your door. That's the thing is that, but you say that, you say that, and then people can impact you in ways which are outside of your control. And the thing about avoidance,

the thing about avoidance is that it's a myth about how much control you have as well. It's not just a series of behaviors, it's also a story you tell yourself. And it's a story about control. And it's a story about, well, I can stop people from having an impact on my life that I don't design for them, if I am an avoidant person. Guess what, bitch? Love can come for you anyway. It's not that it's more that the people who are able to, if you are someone who is quite avoidant, okay,

and I'm being very generalizing here, there's all types of different attachment styles, blah, blah, blah, I'm just saying, if you are somebody who has that kind of control and those levels of boundaries, the battlements are up, then the people who often cross them and get to you are the ones you do not want to be crossing those moats because the secure ones who respect that just disappear. They hear what you're putting out, which is don't fucking come near me, don't touch me. And the ones

who don't hear that are the most unsuitable who will just reinforce your thinking. And I know that because I'm not stupid. Like I can see patterns between the people who I have let come into the castle, even a little bit physically, not emotionally, but physically. And they are some of the, as Charlie Murphy says, habitual line-steppers.

Habitual line-steppers. Habitual line-steppers. And it's obvious that this is something I need to work on and it's a practice of just like opening yourself up to intimacy. And it's, you know, the more you retreat, the more you have to force yourself to get back out there and stretch that muscle of being intimate

with another person without being disgusted by it and running away. But maybe, maybe, maybe how you meet someone will be different. And by this, I mean, I know that, um, you know, hooking up with friends gets a bad rap, um, but like I, friendships can turn into- I don't have any straight male friends. I don't have any straight male friends. I don't have any straight male friends. And let's just say I've learned lessons.

Don't do that. You, you can learn lessons about a particular person or a particular way of going about things. I just think that there are plenty of people who've had friendships evolve and it's been really wonderful because they're inside your guard. Anyway, that can happen. Two things before we move on. One, the sub theory about people, friends, lots. A lot of that I think is honestly, I've talked about this elsewhere in my sub stack, but proximity

to people is how you create a relationship. Extended proximity, extended affection, and it's so cliche, and it's happening in my friend group right now, that people who've been looking around for ages and ages are suddenly like, oh well, you know what? This person's here and I really like them. Let's just have a go and just end up with their friends. I think that happens a lot of the time in heterosexual dynamics.

It obviously happens in queer dynamics a lot, but I actually think they get them a lot quicker. They're like, no, this isn't working. Let's move on. Whereas a lot of het people are like, let's try everyone. You're the final boss. Okay, let's do you. Final boss. Well, it's just like you lots of people go around the friend groups. There's so many friend groups I know. It's just like incestuous dating. But that's because they all get on. So they was I'm very like, I don't want to shit worry. And when I have shit worry, it's been really a mess.

Like a mess mess. So that's something I think about. But I also think if I do meet someone, it will be in real life. It won't be via apps, mainly because I'm not on them at the moment, but I just don't think that that method of dating is good for me because I am someone

who doesn't like being confronted with maybe the reality of someone or whatever, or I find it boring very quickly. So I need, I want that extended proximity. I want that getting to know someone properly, intentionally, slowly. I want to have the time for someone to unfold in front of me and me to unfurl and turn. And the other thing, I do think there is a gender element to this a little bit, which is that you have cited men all the time and it's, it's like, there was a time in my life where I was very willing to make things possible for men. And I think when I closed that down,

and not in a bad way, just like, it doesn't mean I was good at it. It doesn't mean that I was like this perfect, amazing, sweet partner. A lot of my partners would definitely complain about me for sure, as well as saying that I gave them a lot of things, vice versa. But now, this period of my life, I think what a change is I've shut down the willingness to be, to make things possible for someone else at my expense, which is obviously part of partnership, compromise. Like there is a level in between that you can meet

which is balance and compromise and being willing to meet in the middle to create something new. Whereas I'm very much like, this is my fiefdom right now and I'm not coming down from this tower. You either have to climb up and get me and stay here. And also don't disturb me when I'm at the gym and I want to eat what I want to eat at what time I want to eat it.

That's not really conducive to a relationship right now. So I'm kind of like, it's fine. That's funny. I guess like last thing is that. So I'm kind of like, it's fine. That's funny. I guess like last thing is that I think that that's how my partner thought we met. Like he met you, he met you. Where's my me? I'm here.

Do you see what I mean? I'm here and he's away right now. So come and get me. Come and get you. I'm low hanging fruit. It put us, yeah, it's like these men are meeting, these men are meeting like the Ash Sarkas, right? Where is the version of that for us?

That's what I'm saying. Just someone who's- I'll tell you what they are. They're in relationships. They got in relationships at university or about five years ago in their mid-twenties and they're currently planning for a beautiful summer wedding. That's where they are. Guess what? Things go wrong.

Oh. Oof. Okay, right. Sorry, that was really dark. That was such a dark note to end on. Things do go... I can't believe the wife guy ended it with like breakups happen. Wait around. They do.

They do happen. They do happen. Okay, Dilemma. Do you want to read it? They do happen. They do happen. Okay. Dilemma. Do you want to read it? Yes. So this is our regular Dilemmas segment. I'm in big trouble. And if you are in trouble, big, medium, small, send us an email at if I speak at navaramedia.com. That is, if I speak at navaramedia.com. I'm going to read this one out. Dear, if I speak, long time listener, love the show, a truly necessary addition to the world of podcasts. And it's rare anyone would say that these days.

Also hearing such clever women disagree constructively is quite revolutionary for me. I really enjoy that as well. And you've taught me how to disagree safely, Moira. And I really appreciate that. I imagine the theme of exes and finances have come in from special ones before me and I think the situation I'm going to describe or adjacent scenarios may come up increasingly for couples in this era. My Dilemma. A few months ago I broke up with my long-term partner who had inherited a property through the early passing of his parents.

He had lived there for a few years while he set up his own business and the house was in relative disrepair. Once we became committed to each other, the plan was to get it sold and move on together, buy our own home, etc. We had no money so almost all the work to get it sale ready needed to be done by us and we both also worked full time. As time went on, he needed to move out of the space to facilitate work getting done, so we decided to move in together. It's a natural step in a relationship, but on this occasion it was mostly so he wasn't living in a building site. I moved out of my extremely cheap rent-controlled studio flat, a genre of flat which has now gone extinct and which I adored. The flat had allowed me to work my badly paid NGO passion job. We moved into an expensive but sadly normal market rate priced

very small place. The move was not a practical one and it made me nervous. I have generally chosen travel over saving and wouldn't describe myself as good with money but I know how to look after myself and this was to me a precarious move. I voiced my concerns but the agreement was that it would be short-term and was in service of our future mutual financial stability. My partner is a workaholic and owns his own small business so this significantly dragged out the time it took to get things done at the house to the point where sometimes jobs had to be done twice as time had undone our work. It became quite a bone of contention

between us and we fought a lot. The whole thing took well over two years spaced out, and the last summer when we lived together was particularly hard. We spent nearly every weekend working on the house and hardly saw friends, didn't go to festivals or leave the country once. I said no to plans and invites. I became very depressed and resentful and had a lot of anxiety about money. To try and get his perspective to some degree, he may feel he didn't force me to do any of this. He will also likely feel he has done the bulk of the work because parts of it were manual labor and it's true he will have spent more time there overall. It's also undoubtedly and legally his property.

But I still spent a huge amount of my time and energy over two years on this project. There were many other unquantifiable efforts and details too. My strong feeling is that if I had used this time and energy on something I wanted, I would have achieved something significant and of value. And while we didn't discuss what would happen if we broke up, I just trusted he wouldn't leave me with nothing. Not long after the place went on the market, we broke up. I had to move home with my parents and I'm currently super broke and out in the suburbs feeling like I don't have too many

prospects. I'm incredibly lucky to have the option to do this, but it's far from ideal as I'm in my mid thirties. The house has now been sold for a significant sum of money. 550,000. Don't know what currency, but 550,000. And he has remained living in the place we shared. We have no contact. The breakup was a bad one. I haven't been able to discuss the situation with him properly. My questions are, if it's cheeky to have multiple,

am I entitled to anything? If so, what? How do you put a number on something like that? And if I'm not owed anything, how do I move on from the grief and anger I feel about my lost time and having to start again from scratch? Finally, for everyone in the audience, how do you guard against this happening? Lots of love, broken, bitter, special one. This is a great dilemma, isn't it? I mean, it's not great, but it's definitely, it's meaty and it's really relevant because the bit that I,

I cut out a little bit of this dilemma because it's really long, which was talking about how more and more we'll see this problem come up where one partner has intergenerational assets or wealth and there'll be informal arrangements of how that's shared with their partner at the time, but then no structures in place to keep that support going

or ensure that if someone has helped generate more wealth from the existing asset, there's a share of it at all. And especially in this world where it's like, monetary value is attached to relationships and just value in general, like what did you get out of something? What did you take from this relationship? What value did you get?

And I think this dilemma is all about, I sacrificed personal value and literal financial gain in this relationship and I've been left worse off. But I'd like to hear what you think first Ash, as a homeowner. Okay, so there's just a factual thing and then there's what my advice is. And then actually steering in two different directions. The factual thing is that you don't have to be married or have a civil partnership

to demonstrate what's called a beneficial interest in a property that you lived in together. However, that means taking your ex to court basically, and you might not win. You'd have to prove that there was an informal understanding that you would financially benefit from this property and that you had basically taken actions that you wouldn't have otherwise had you not had this expectation. Now, there's legal precedent for it can be an informal arrangement and not a contract, but it's a fight and it's a slog and you might not win and you might end up losing out on money. If you lose the case, that's a practical thing. The actual thing is that either you speak to your ex,

which you've said is very difficult because you've had a bad breakup, or you move on. And it's, I think it's probably, if you've had a bad breakup, going to be quite difficult to get your ex to see your side of things and to see your financial circumstances as part of his responsibility. Like I said, if he doesn't see it your way, your option is to take it to court, but that's a risk. Um, also don't take my legal advice as like golden by the way, like I'm just someone who did some Googling preparing for a podcast. So like talk to a solicitor if you actually are thinking of going down that path.

But I actually maybe think the most healthy thing for you to do is move on. are thinking of going down that path. But I actually maybe think the most healthy thing for you to do is move on. You're not the first person to have a breakup in your 30s and to have to move back in with your parents. I've known a lot of people for whom that's the case, people where their partner had the generational wealth and the house and you made your plans around that being

the financial foundation and then the relationship ended, but their life didn't end then. And I think maybe the more important question is, how do you move on from the grief and anger you feel about your lost time and having to start again from scratch? I think that many people feel that grief and anger, particularly with long-term relationships ending.

Yours has got a financial manifestation to it, but how do you move on from the grief and anger the same way that everyone does? You eventually detach from your emotional investment in that relationship and the hopes and the aspirations that it represented. You live life, you do more things on your own terms. You know, you've said that you made a lot of sacrifices in terms of travel and how you spent your time and how you made financial decisions. You embrace that autonomy that you have again. And yeah,

you're having to start financially from a position that you wouldn't have wished to, but you also have control. And you've talked about how much anxiety seeding financial control to your partner, your ex-partner caused you. Maybe there's some freedom here. And in the coming months and years, you're gonna feel really good. What do you reckon? I think I have to say, how do you guard against this happening again? You listen to what your mind and body is telling you

because all the way through this, you talk about all the different things that you felt uncomfortable with and yet you pressed ahead anyway. There was something saying you didn't wanna do this, you didn't wanna do this, you didn't wanna do this, you didn't wanna do this. It's done now. You have to learn in future that when your mind says,

I don't wanna move out of my rent controlled apartment into this precarious living situation, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Don't overrule that. Don't overrule that instinct. If your partner is truly somebody that you can build what we were talking about earlier, this committed foundation with, if you talk to them, they would understand

that. And if they don't, then you don't you don't be with them. But I think throughout this letter, I get the sense that you really regret constantly pushing past what you thought was the right or sensible decision, and doing something and taking a risk that felt very unsafe. And then it playing out exactly as you might have deep down suspected. And that's, there's a shame there, the shame in that, right. So it's like, how can I recoup my losses? How can I recover from the humiliation of what this

person has done for me, which is I feel taken for a mug. I have a friend all the time is that, have they fucking taken me for a mug about different people. And I have to be like, most of the time, no, they haven't taken for a mug. And even if they have taken for a mug, it doesn't matter in some ways. It doesn't matter. What matters is how you process that and move on from it. There are, there's some people, I say some people, there's an individual in my past who hasn't moved on from what they think I owe them, from the investment they feel they put into me as a person.

And it has caused such hatred, such souring of relations. The way they speak to me is honestly disgusting on the very rare occasions that they say something. And it comes from such a place of hurt and betrayal and grief over a situation that did not warrant that at all, over a very, very standard situation of just separation. And every time I get a missive from this person, I think, oh my God, I feel so bad for you that you cannot move past this resentment, that you cannot, that you were still, sorry, I'm going to quote

Taylor Swift, help, I'm still at the restaurant. She has this song where she's like, help, I'm still at the restaurant sitting in this corner, it's like about a breakup where she's just stuck in the same place. Everybody moved on, but I'm still here. You don't want to be the person still at the restaurant when everyone's moved on. You don't want to be the person who sacrifices more of your life, as Ash says, to this thing. It's not wasted time. It's time that you've spent. It's time that maybe you could have spent doing something else, but you didn't. It doesn't matter. It's happened now. You have to move past that. I don't think there's any way to recoup these losses financially, but the way that you can recoup them spiritually is to think, okay, that was a relationship. It didn't end the way I wanted to. There are things there that I maybe would have done differently.

I have the knowledge of hindsight and maybe if I listen more, now you have that opportunity in future. I know it sounds trite to be like, this is a fresh start and it doesn't feel like that. It feels like scorched earth, but there is a life out there waiting for you, as Ash says. You just have to literally take it. And yes, it's horrible living with your parents at this stage, but use that as motivation. Like use that as a way to rebuild yourself. And the thing that should be underpinning all of this

is the idea of like, I am not going to go back to the person that I was who was willing to push past all my boundaries and do all this and etc. And then resent my partner for it all the way throughout. I am going to be someone who is much more intentional about why I'm doing something and what I feel comfortable with, without becoming a mental garden person like me, which is a hard balance to tread. But I just I think you have to start trying to process this grief and anger. Read a lot of grief books. Listen to a lot of grief podcasts. Do all the self-help you can. Do yourself a one-person therapy course using chat GPT if you have to. The other day,

I found myself Googling how to glow up spiritually on chat, Googling chat GPT, which is a disgusting way to use AI that's using the environment. But I just needed a touchstone in that moment. And I read it and I was like, oh, yeah, I know this stuff. I've got this, I've got this book. You've got to start trying to do this stuff because otherwise you will still be at the restaurant and the food has gone very cold. Also, like, I mean, I think you've given great advice,

Moya, especially the thing about like, you know, you were ignoring your belly mind throughout this whole relationship, it seems, when it comes to finances. And so advice for special ones is don't. But the other thing is contracts, baby, contracts. I'd like, the thing about relationships and commitment is that there's always a degree of financial

risk, right? Whether it's spend time or moving in together, it just is. You have to accept that if you are taking the step of moving in with somebody, there is always an element of financial peril there, always. But when it comes to things like, especially when there's something like property involved and there's an understanding that it's supposed to be a shared asset, is that you can have contracts which reflect that reality. Marriage and civil partnership is one such contract, right? There are all sorts of implications that they have for things like splitting pension

parts and the division of assets. But another is whose property the name is in. The other is you can draw up a contract with a solicitor specifically for this thing. It is not a sign that you don't have faith in the relationship if you want to draw some of these things up. Like actually like, can be just like quite a practical step because I got married at about the same time as me, my partner and our best friend bought a place together.

Is that how that deed works? Is that like everyone gets out the money that they put in. So didn't feel the need to have a separate prenuptial arrangement, but like could have a post-nup if I wanted. And when we talked about this, it was not a big deal. He was like, yeah, man, fucking do it. And then we just didn't do it. Cause we were like, oh, don't think that we have to. People think that being so clear and, you know, anticipatory about financial arrangements means that you're saying that you don't have faith in the relationship. It's not that at all.

It's not that at all. You can see it as a way of enabling you to make a choice with a degree of confidence and safety, rather than, you know, putting like a doom cloud over the relationship. That's my advice I would give to other people. Contracts. I don't have faith in relationships. So let's wrap this up. Love you special one. Love you all special ones out there. This has been If I Speak. Love you all special ones out there. This has been If I Speak.

Speaking like a cult leader. This has been Ash Sarker. Featuring. Moya Lothian McLean. Bye. Goodbye. Thanks for watching!