If I Speak - 64: What is the female gaze?

Episode Date: May 13, 2025

What do straight women find attractive? Too many men think the answer is ‘big muscles’ says Ash, who has a big theory about sensuality. Plus: what to do when your boss is a bigot. Come and see If I Speak LIVE in London on 21st May! Join Ash, Moya and special guest Monica Heisey – […]

Hello and bienvenue, if I speak. Spontaneously, me and Moït both did some French inquiring for where our recording link was this morning. Like at exactly the same time, we were both like, who, eh? Where's the link? Where's the link? And the link was up there. I've forgotten how to ask, how are you? So, ça va?

Comment ça va? Comment ça va? Oui, ça are you? How are you? How are you? How are you? Yes, I'm fine, thank you. And you? Oh, okay. You're not using the formal view. No, sorry.

I see you as someone closer to me than the formal view. Also, you look great. Listeners can't see this. Ash looks very, very smart today. Well, you know, it's because I've got smart things that I have to do later, but also my hair's quite greasy, so it is up, because otherwise it just hangs down by my face like the girl from the ring.

It just is a great look. I'm a favor, I'm a fan. Oh my god, stop. I've got questions for you though, unless you wanna do a quick catch up beforehand, we've been told that our catch ups run a bit long. No, no, no. Before the questions, we have things to promote. So as some of you may know already, we are having a live show. It is going to be in person in the flesh in meat space at Earth Doulston on the 21st of May.

You can get tickets on Dice. There'll be a link in the show notes. And it'll be great to see you. Are we announcing who the guest is yet or are we saving that? I don't know if we are announcing who the guest is yet, but shh, yes we are. So we just got a voice on hi,

just came in and said we're announcing the guest. The guest is the amazing author and TV screenwriter, Monica Heise, who is the author of Really Good Actually and created the show Smothered, has also written for Schitt's Creek and various other TV behemoths. So we're very, very excited to be joined by Monica, who I know from past experiences is extremely funny

and has lots of crazy stories. So I've never met Monica, at least I don't think I've met Monica, but everyone I've spoken to is like, oh my God, she's so funny. She's so, so funny, which I think is the best reputation you can have to precede you. Yeah. Incredibly funny. Yeah, that's actually a great question. I should have used that as one of my questions. What's the best reputational characteristic to procedure? Actually, let's do that as the first question, Ash. Okay. What reputational characteristic would you like to procedure?

Hard bastard. I think probably funny. I think I would want people to say, oh, Ash, she's really funny, but not funny. Like, she's probably funny. I think I would want people to say, oh Ash, she's really funny, but not funny, like she's really funny. Intonation is everything. What about you? I actually already have the reputation of character. I mean, actually I want people to say I'm funny, but the reputation of characteristic that people use to describe me that is my favourite is that I facilitate people meeting. So yeah, yeah, yeah, but you love that one. What do you think is your real reputation that precedes you?

No, people say I'm a facilitator. They also say what else do they say? I don't know. There's stuff I won't know. What's the one you don't want? Probably one that I have, which is something like, I don't know,'t know bossy no I am definitely bossy um the thing is what people say about maybe that I'm boring I hate people saying I'm boring but I hate that that's the one I really wouldn't want people saying I'm boring and I fear it more than anything else in this world that I'm boring when I start talking I stop halfway through now going sorry I'm being boring I've got a real prank we'll go don, we'll talk about that another time. We'll talk about that another time. I've got questions for you. We've got questions for you.

Right. Second question. How do you envisage your old age? Oh, hopefully, you know, growing old with my partner until we both get hit by the same bus. Where are you though? What are you doing?

Could be anywhere. Could be anywhere, could be anywhere to be honest. I don't- Says the woman who hasn't left North London. No, I mean, who knows? Thing is that I don't really, like he is very much like, oh, envisage the future with me and I don't do that. I am a gut led person and right now my gut tells me

I want to be here. But if my gut told me, okay, you want to be here but if my gut told me okay you want to be in La Condesa, that's what I would decide to do. I have a third question for you which is I'm deciding which one to ask you whether I ask you the boring quick one or the longer one. I'm gonna ask you the longer one. How do you organize your tasks every morning? Oh, it gives my partner so much anxiety because I just try and remember all the things that I have to do in my head. Yeah, that's pretty much what I do.

I just try and remember all the things that I've got to do in my head. So then the organization process is who's yelling at me? Do that thing first. Then the other things are according to an internal matrix, which I wouldn't know how to describe. Is that the best way of doing things? No. Am I able to change? Also, no. Have you ever tried writing them down? What happens when you write them down? It doesn't make a difference. It just doesn't make a significant difference. I'm better at keeping a calendar than I used to be. So that's an improvement, right?

That is an old dog learning a new trick. I just got this. No. Because I love my to- There is a pocket pad being waved at the camera. Specifically a to-do list and it's giant and I was I love a to-do list because it helps me I put like

Priority next to things the priority and tick them off and I thought I need I need a pad I don't know that's spending stupid money and then I went around to one of my close friends houses who is Very neurodivergent and she had this pucker pad that I'd been looking at and she says, you need to get it, it will change your life. And I was like, well, I cannot ignore the reference from somebody who I very much align with when it comes to doing tasks. So I'm now on the pucker pad. But I respect your system.

It's not a system. I'm being nice. I'm being good. I respect your way of doing it. I'm libertarian today. I respect how you do things. I love you like, bitch, I didn't mean that. I was just being nice. I hear what you're saying. Maybe I shouldn't have said, I respect her. I should have said, I hear your system.

I hear your system. I'm finding new ways to do like shade stuff. I hear your system. I hear your system. I'm finding new ways to do like shade stuff. Like I hear your system and then you don't say it and I respect it. The same way you hear a fox screaming outside. It's like it's not, I don't like hearing it, but I can. No, I actually do respect people who can still function even when they don't write things down because I, at the moment, my brain is a complete mess because all the stuff that's happening this weekend was very, very busy. I had about 60 things to do.

I haven't had time to sit down and do my normal to-do list and take them off. And I truly feel so, whoa, like that sponge with me. Well, he's just a blur. That's my feel right now. I'm full sponge with blur. Anyway.

I like that you did the dance of like an inflatable outside of a car wash. Those I think about all the time. I think about them every day. Like that's how I that's how I feel most of the time. Just like this. What's going on? Very, very, very, very, very, very quick story.

And I can move on to the big theory. And I'm going to try and find a way to describe the motions that I'm doing. So this was relatively early on in my relationship with my partner and it was his birthday and he got so drunk. I mean the drunkest I've ever seen him and it was because, you know, people just keep buying you shots and he's quite a tall, lanky, limmy guy, right? The limbs are very long and so he was dancing, I can only describe it as he was dancing like an inflatable outside of a car wash. So the arms are going up here. And then he developed this little sequence, right? So the sequence began thusly. It's up here, time of my life, good times, swan

dive down by the knees down here and then swoop back up time of my life. So that was the sequence and he was at every so often he'd like, like just knock a glass out of someone's hand and it would shatter on the floor. And then he would just keep dancing. He was like, that's someone else's problem, let's go. And then like, he got steadily drunker. Up here, time of my life, let's go.

Good times, swoop down, by the knees, still down, I'm down, I'm down for a really long time, still down, still down. And then me and his best friend, we're like, oh no, he just can't get back up. So we like grabbed him and we were like, scooping him back up into the air. And he was like, hooray, I'm back. Let's go.

When you were watching and participating and lifting this tall man, he's a big man. Were you like, wow, I really love you? I was, I was like, you're so lucky I'm in love with you. Oh, he's just down. He's just down there. He was still moving the whole time. He was down by his knees.

Oh my god. That was a great story. Thank you for sharing that. Also, I did the dancing with you, so now I feel really limber. It was so good. Let's talk about men a bit more because you've got a middle segment for us. You've got a big fucking theory. Sorry for swearing, listeners. I feel bad.

I feel bad at swearing. It's not cool. It's not smart. It's just a big sodding theory. Actually, it is both cool and smart. We've got a Thiccums theory for you today. Let's go. Thickum's theory for you today. Let's go. So I don't know if you saw this thing especially because you're spending less time on your phone. No, I saw it It was one of the it was one of the few tweets that came up when I was on my burner account

It made his way to me It found its way. A carrier pigeon came and dropped a screenshot. I only see like five tweets at the moment and that was one of them. Oh, well, you know, great. I'm glad that I'm on the pulse of popular culture. So this thing was that a researcher called William Costello, who I actually interviewed for downstream about incels, he posted two photos of, and you mustn't laugh, Olly Murs. And in both photos, Mr. Murs was shirtless at the gym. And in the first one, he was, I would say in good shape,

but he just had a little more body fat and he wasn't preening for the camera, I would say. He wasn't obviously preening. And in the second photo, he was preening. He was, I would say, oiled, right? Like, properly just dunked in oil and super shredded, really, really cut. And so you don't get that in a photo unless also you've really, really tried the lighting, the oil, you have to pump, like you probably haven't eaten, super shredded, super cut.

And William Costello asked his followers whether they found him more attractive before, so the one where there was a little bit more body fat, less preening, or after, super shredded, kind of oily. And the majority of men said they found Olly Mer's more attractive after, so super cut. And the majority of women said they found Olimar's more attractive after, so super cut, and the majority of women said before when he was wasn't so cut and a little bit more bear-like. And what I found really funny about this is that you had all these

manosphere types being like, why are women lying? Their commitment to seeing the world a certain way extends to the fact that if a woman is like, this is what I find attractive, and it's completely anonymous. I don't have a reason to lie there. Like you lying bitch, lying the way women always do. So that was something which I found funny, but it did make me think.

So there are two components to my big theory, and I do wanna make sure that we get to the slightly more fun one. The first bit, which is less fun, is that so much of the Manosphere is about getting men to cater to the male gaze, not the female gaze. And there was a piece on Substack written by Mary Harrington, who politically I really, really disagree with, and she was responding to the same thing. And she was basically suggesting that, you know, as part of the male gaze,

you know, the male gaze also shapes women's expectations of gender. So the famous thing of men act, women appear. The problem with Olly Murs was that he was trying to appear too much and that's why I wasn't attractive to women. And I disagreed, I disagreed with her take because I was like, well, actually, no, there are visual things that make me objectify men in which they are trying to appear. I mean, like me and one of my best friends were both absolutely feral for hands. So a shapely hand where you can see like a little bit of, you know, like, yeah, a little bit of back of the hand vein, feral, like absolutely feral.

Very funny you say that. Literally a conversation that was being had in the group chat just two days ago about hands. Finger on the pulse. The pulse is also on the hand. The pulse is on the wrist. The pulse is on the wrist. We're looking at the pulse on the wrist

and we're talking about the hand. And we're talking about the hand. Right, like really, really feral for it. So if I see that, I'm like hummina hummina ha. So I disagreed with Mary Harrington, but I do believe that part of why it was unattractive is that it was catering to the male gaze. It wasn't focusing on the things that maybe women want to see. And the second thing, and this is related, is that this super cut, super shredded, super oily,

it's look but don't touch. Because actually, if you touched, especially with the oil, it wouldn't feel very nice. And this isn't something which is unique to men in the gym who are super ripped. There is also look but don't touch for women. I would say that like, you know, the super sculpted, lots of fillers, very contoured, that's look but don't touch. I'd also say the Pilates body, which is the way in which we're packaging anorexia these days, that is also kind of look but don't touch. And there are ways in images, so not just someone being in front of you, there are things which visually are inviting to touch and also to smell, right? Like you can see

an image where you're like, I kind of want to smell that, smell that image. And I would venture perhaps that just like there's looks, you know, there's looks maxing, looks maxing for photos. There could be such a thing as touch maxing. So maximizing the things that you want to touch. For me, that's probably a little, a downy chest hair. So this isn't necessarily the super 70s chest hair. Lots of people like that, but I like a fine down.

A bit of body fat. Like I don't want pure muscle or like, you know, really, really vascular. Like need some body fat there, right? Otherwise like what am I supposed to touch? I don't know, crow's feet, love a crow's foot, love a crow's foot so much, trying to think about what else. But these are all things which invite me to touch.

So two things that I want to ask you on the basis of this. What for you is your invitation to touch sexiness, right? Where do you identify it? Where do you see it? What's the thing that makes you go, and what about this thing about the manosphere? Basically encouraging men to cater to the male gaze rather than the female gaze. I'm going to start with the manosphere just because I think, as you said, the second topic is more fun. So let's clear the turdsds up the way. Sorry, I shouldn't call you turds guys. I know that you're going through a hard time. And that's why

you've gone further into the arms, the deep depraved arms of the manosphere. So I think what we're talking about here is not even the male gaze. I think this is where we get wrong. We talk about the female gaze and the male gaze, which implies that there's a gaze inherent biologically to different sexes, which I don't think is true. I don't think when you're born, you open your eyes and you're inherently like, hmm, goo goo gaga, hard muscle or ooh, soft, beautiful statue. That doesn't make sense to me. I think what we're talking about here is the same thing, which is the patriarchal gaze, but I think it manifests differently

for people socialized as women and people socialized as men. And I'll use those two camps at the moment, because obviously this crosses over to cross genders, blah, blah, blah, but there are like broad brushstrokes here, right, that we're talking about. Just to say, I agree with you, but I still use the phrase male gaze, female gaze, to talk about socialization into this category.

Yeah, because it makes more sense. But you know that I love to throw spanners in the works and oh my god, I said something. Yeah. We were having a conversation, we were friends the other day about something. And someone was saying, oh yeah, you know, like, they were denying how serious it was, or they were, you know, undermining seriousness. And I said, oh, they were acting exactly as serious as it was. And my friend pretended to smoke a massive bladder, go, because I was being so pretentious. That's one of my favorite things to do when either I or someone else is being pretentious,

you just go. Anyway, anyway. So go back, go back, go back. Back to the patriarchal gaze. So, I think what we're talking about here is like the patriarchal gaze. And in the Manosphere, the patriarchal gaze obviously is completely disconnected from any idea of what women broadly, because obviously it differs depending on the different woman,

might be attracted to. The broad brush strokes of what men might be attracted to, because the manosphere isn't about appealing to women at all. This is what we're talking about. It's about dominating. It's about dominating women, dominating other people, dominating other men. It's about being the most dominating form of masculinity,

the most, the word should be dominant, most dominant, it's about forming the most dominant form of masculinity that you never feel bad or sad or any emotion other than power ever again. I don't even, is power even an emotion? It's kind of a state of being and an emotion, right? It's like invulnerability. Yeah. Right.

You will try to, they're trying to make themselves look like Captain America and feel like, I don't't know who's someone who doesn't feel any emotions that robot and the fucking marvels. But then they make him feel emotions and he marries the witch. Anyway, that's the last time I watched Marvel like 10 years ago. The void is, they're not appealing. You know Malcolm Tucker, when he's like, you know the space hairdresser, you know the space hairdresser and his best friends with a pedal bin, you know. What's that film that you love? What film? The one about the fucking hairdresser, the space hairdresser and the cowboy.

The guy's, he's got a tinfoil pal and a pedal bin. Lego! They're all made of fucking Lego. Star Wars. That's the one, right. It's like that, okay. Well, they make him marry the witch. Anyway, within the Manosphere... Who made him? Who made him? The writers. He marries a witch. Anyway, the point is, body of Captain America,

emotional vulnerability. So they wanna look, they don't want anyone to touch them. They don't wanna feel. They literally want to harden themselves into stone. I think that is the ultimate sort of goal of the Man of Sphere, even if people going to it go to it because they're lonely, they want human connection, but instead they're really attracted by this message of, well, I can make it so that you don't have to even connect with people because you've got complete power

and control and dominance. And that body plays into it because not only is it a dominant looking body, it's also a body where you have control over it. You've exercised the most control possible to get yourself super fucking shredded. And there's like, I think it's so obvious that it's appealing to other men because it's just a beacon, it's a beacon of, it's like a massive, wearing a massive sign that says, I have power, I have dominance, I'm in complete control, and I've spent this many hours getting to this kind of size

and shredded level, and that is, you can't do that, you pathetic worm. I think that's the vibe they're going for. Like, back to the second bit of the question, which is more fun. What am I into? What am I into? Do you know what Ash?

What am I into? It's so hard for me to like say, cause I don't think there's a specific trait. Like veins on the arms, absolutely. If I can see those veins flexing, ooh, ooh. The hands as well, hands are a big one for me. I think exactly what you said. When it comes to, if we want to objectify bodies and I feel bad because there'll be, if we were talking about women like this, then we'd be in shit. But I am

definitely way more attracted to and always have been like you say, somebody who keeps themselves in like shape, I would put it, but isn't shredded. I want like a bit of body fat. I want, I want to know that you go for a run or that you cycle and your cardiovascular health is probably good. You're not going to keel over tomorrow because that accords with the lifestyle I live, but I also want to be able to touch you and feel like your soft skin and like sleep on your chest and not be just like a wall of muscle hitting me in the face. I have on occasion had fornicated, I fornicated with the devil.

No, I fornicated with men who have that crazy gym body, right? Without fail, worst sexual experiences of my life. I don't know whether this stands for all men who go to the gym like this, but I think there is a correlation between men who put so much time into their bodies and the amount of time they put into the bodies of people they sleep with. And the technique, I do think there comes a point when you are that focused on your own body, where you see other people as just like flesh holes. And the technique is like... Every time I've ventured into that area, it's always been a jackhammer situation.

Oh, it's like undulation. Have you heard of it? I know, exactly. But that to me was very interesting. I think there was a correlation there between boiling people, like boiling yourself down to the last macro, the last calorie, the last like bit of how do I get rid of this body fat? And then the way that you start viewing other people's bodies around you. I think, I think that is a thing. I think that's very much thing. And I think with men particularly, this might not be true of everyone, but I think there's probably high degrees of like, rates of watching pornography among those demographics, just from what I've seen.

I think there's a lot of loneliness that I've seen. I think there's an inability, if you are that into the gym, I think sometimes there's a real inability to connect with other people. And I'm not talking about like, going four days a week or whatever, I'm talking about like, to get to an Olly Murs body,

you have to be doing some stuff that is above and beyond the normal levels. Like his body in the second picture is that of close to professional bodybuilder. And I know that all our gym going rates now are much higher, like the way that I work out now, why am I working out like I'm trying to be an athlete? Like it doesn't make sense.

Obviously I'm not doing as much as that, but like it's almost, I don't know, it's like athlete light the way a lot of us work out now. But there is a level that you get to where you basically peel off all body fat and that takes the exclusion of basically all else. And I do imagine it's a very lonely lifestyle. And I also know that like their lives are all around the gym.

Who wants to date someone who can't go out and have like a bit of a laugh on a spontaneous? I've been that person as well. It's not fun to be stuck in the gym 24 seven. And when I look at that body, I don't just see the hardness slapping against me. I don't see the great wall of China that I'll be trying to like cuddle up to.

I also see all the hours that we won't be able to spend together, all the times that, you know, we're going out for a meal and it becomes a big, I have to watch them struggle thinking about they're going to eat, they'll bring chicken with them. That happens. That happens. And I see somebody who is gripped by insecurity, gripped by insecurity to a degree that I think it would affect our relationship and relations. Like that might be toe to projection, but I also it would affect our relationship and relations. Like that might be toe projection, but I also think I know a bit of what I'm talking about because it's stuff I've experienced myself and I had to deal with.

So, but tell me more, tell me more about the things which are inviting to senses, which are not just the eyes. Um, smell. Yeah. Smell, obviously. Like what? Like what? But like musky smells what? But like what?

Musky smells. Woodie smells. Citrusy smells. The best man I ever smelled was wearing Davidoff cool water. Oh. Smelled so good. I was sniffing him like a dog and I was like, what is that? And he said, it's Davidoff cool water.

And I said, I thought that was like, you know, for children. And he was like, no, no. He says, this is a secret, no one wears anymore. No one wears anymore, it got too, it was too popular. I'm also melding a bit from something I'm writing as well and I've just realized in my head. But Davidov Kowalta, amazing scent. Anything that's like muddy, muddy, woody and musky.

Muddy, muddy, muddy. Little bit muddy, love a muddy man. Smell is crazy to me. Smell is from Lady Chatterley's love. What else is really attractive? If I say the next thing, then I'll get told off, so I'm not gonna say it. I like, I just like.

Oh. Just a little bit taller than me. Just like, just like a little bit. Cause I'm five foot one, just a little bit, personally, would be great, but I know that's a complete socialization. Can I tell you something? Which is that like, look, I know that I am married to a man who is tall, right? He's a tall man, as tall as the peniston viaduct. However, I have been known to, and still occasionally fancy, you know, when my eyes are torn from that of my

lawfully wedded spouse, a short king. But what I want from a short king is I want them to be a little bit furry. I want them to be a little bit furry. I want like a sense that they have like just a bit more body hair than average. Like that's the thing that does it for me with a short king. Furry. Herstute. Herstute. Herstute. Herstute. That's not the word I'm looking for.

Herstoot. Herstoot and herstoot. What else really attracts me to men? It's her, because I don't want to be too prescriptive. My friends say, as I've mentioned before, that my type is hunk. But as I get older, I can feel myself adjusting the hunk to levels that are realistic. Let's face it, I'm hit 30. It's not likely I'm going to end up with someone with hair. I'd love that, but I also don't, I think-

Hair on their head. Hair on their head. Hair on their head. There's a lot of bald men out there and they're very beautiful and that's valid. Like a beautiful bald man is great. What am I attracted to? There's loads of different things. It's also just like, it's hard because I've met so many beautiful men who are really boring and then it just completely turns me off. Yeah, but no, but like we're pulling away from the visual.

It's like, what are the things that make you want to touch? What are the things that make you want to like, you know, so like there are also good things and bad things about this, right? Which is like, I really don't want my partner to wear fragrance. Like it just, it doesn't like... I love it. But like with my specific partner, I'm saying like it just doesn't like... The thing about like his natural smell is like, that's the one that does it for me, right?

That is the one that does it for me. And if he's wearing, I guess, like normal fabrics, like normal t-shirt fabrics, it's like at the end of the day, I'm like, oh my God, he smells so good. There are two exceptions to this when I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, get the gun. One is when he's been wearing like sports t-shirts and stuff, because he's gone for a run. And there's something about that synthetic fabric and how it like reacts to his natural skin chemistry. I'm like, get like, get that in the washing machine right fucking now. And the second, and this was so weird. One time he came back from work

and like I gave him a hug and a kiss and like we're sitting on the sofa and I like smelt the top of his head, which I often do because that is one way in which I express and feel love. I smelt the top of his head and I was like, what the fuck is that? I was like, oh, like this is so gross.

Like what have you done? And I was like, were you wearing a bike helmet? Did something, what happened? And he was really unsoundly because my sense of repulsion was so strong. He was unsoundly quite upset. And I was like, I'm sorry, I've never said this to you before, but you do have to take a shower and wash your hair. I don't know what's going on with your scalp. And he did that and he came back out. To me, he still smelled weird. No one else could smell it. No one else could smell it. Like our housemate came back and you know,

my partner was like, Ash says that my head smells. And the housemate was like, I can't smell anything. He came back and was like, no, you still smell weird. And then a couple of hours later in the night, he had a terrible vomiting bug.

Like terrible, terrible. You smelled his illness! I smelled his illness, like a dog that can detect heart attacks. That's crazy. You guys are enmeshed. It was like the worst tummy bug he'd ever had. He was in real pain. He was throwing up. He never gets tummy upsets like that.

Wow. You literally smelled the illness on him. I smelled the illness. That's deep love. Oh, if it's the end of a summer day and I know that he's going to smell like sun cream and natural sweat and a cotton t-shirt. I think why you're finding this easier than me is because you have had concerted intimate interactions with a man in a recent period. Whereas I'm like trying to recall the things that I realized the other day it's been six years since my last relationship started, which is not like

like that's quite a long time ago. And it was a three year relationship. So it's been three years since that ended. And since then, there hasn't been any, the people that I've felt, I'm trying to think of the people I felt goo goo gaga about one was, and I didn't feel goo goo gaga about them for long stretches. It was like the initial attraction, the smell. I think smell is a huge thing for me.

Maybe all three people that I've realized, like I've got instant, no, four, there's four. They all smelled amazing. They all smelled amazing. There's certain features that I'm really attracted to. I love dark curly hair. I just love a brunette in general. I'm really-

Yeah, really dark hair. Always dark hair. I'm really big on brunettes, big brown eyes, huge on that, big win for me. Basically, if they look like me. If you look- Ethnically ambiguous. If you look-

Big brown eyes. Ethnically ambiguous. And you've got big brown eyes and dark curly hair. Maybe some tattoos. Like, let's fucking go. Um... Which is, I think the brown eyes are actually a massive thing. These are all things I can see though.

What can I touch? Can I ask you a question? Can I ask you a question? Are you on the apps currently? Have you been on the apps recently? I haven't been on the apps since October. I'm still clean. Oh, really?

I'm still clean. Maybe that's a part of it though, because I wasn't on the apps for very long at all. Like really, like only properly used them for like a month. Like in my whole, like, so I think that for me working out attractiveness was in a real shared space in which, obviously, there are the things that you can look at and see. And again, that can vary from person to person. So I really like a nose with character, but I'm not prescriptive about what that means. What that means to me is that I want a nose that announces itself in the room. Like, hello! I'm a nose. That's what I like. Dark hair, like for me, builds really, really very.

Like I used to love a yogi bare body, like kind of like long belly. Like, you know, it's like, you don't, you don't, I don't want a Jimbrow. Doesn't work for me. Heights vary, but I want a Jimbrow, doesn't work for me. Heights vary, but, like smell, I guess that thing of like invitation to touch, like the things that I'm gonna notice about them in real life, that just is so much bigger for me. So much bigger for me because I wasn't looking at pictures and actually like looking at pictures on apps

I found alienating, I think we've talked about it before because I felt unable to work out if I was attracted to them. Yeah, I mean, apps, when I was on apps talked about it before, because I felt unable to work out if I was attracted to them. Yeah, I mean, apps, when I was on apps, I felt like it's a deadening experience. Like, I'm not really thinking about it in that sense. I'm thinking about, like, because so much for me, it is personality. Like, as soon as I start talking to someone, that's really when I lock in. And I lock in so infrequently.

Because I lock in so infrequently because I'm just very, very worried about rejection, I think. And I don't think people will view me as a sexual creature. I know in reality that's not true. I know that's not how it goes. But in theory, in my head, I just always, my friend that I was talking to yesterday, she was saying, I just put myself in the friend zone

automatically, and I was like, oh, me too. I just assume that these the friend zone automatically and I was like, oh me too. Like I just assume that no one that these these men are not going to be attracted to me. So I put myself in there and it's only when it's someone that I'm attracted to in the first place, which is fascinating. Yeah, so personality as well. One person that I had entangled, it doesn't even entanglement, I'm gonna start with a couple times, had the softest skin I've ever experienced in my life. I don't usually care about that at all. It's not a prescription.

I like a laborer's hands, you know? But it was so soft. I was crazy for it. I was like, what the fuck is this? It's like Markle. What's going on? And that was an interesting experience. I don't think it's one you get very often

and I definitely don't. It's not even a thing that I would go for. But it was amazing when I had it. It was really fun to experience. They were the only smelled like the best as well. God, I don't know. I think it's hair, like touching hair, like being able to put your hands in their hair and on their face, maybe a little bit stubble, chest hair as well. Like all of these things, again, but it's not prescriptive. It really depends on the person. I think the thing that bonds these, these, the men I'm attracted to is often they do look slightly sporty in the sense that they've probably done something

a bit athletic in their past and now maybe like pints, but still engage in sports regularly. I like a rugby player build. I have to say that, but it doesn't matter where on the rugby pitch you played. You could have been a winger. I like a rugby player build, I have to say that. But it doesn't matter where on the rugby pitch you played, you could have been a winger, I don't mind. What about a kicker? You could be a kicker, I don't care. It's just the idea that you engage in

regularly moving your body and you care about it in that way. And I do find men with that relationship tend to be better lovers because they're embodied rather than constantly punishing their body. You said that if men were talking about women in this way, like it would be like, eh, eh. Yeah. However, I'm not sure.

I'm not sure I would feel that way because like ultimately, like, and it wouldn't be for my ears, right? But if I heard men zeroing in on like, oh, what are the things that make me want to touch? Right? And like, and it wasn't about like, what's the kind of women that gives me the most status in the eyes of other men? And it was actually like, what are the things that make me go like, there's this really funny video of old dirty bastard and he's just like, obviously off his face and he's like, when a woman's feet and you can't smell it, but you know there's a smell and you smell the smell like, like it was really, really funny.

He was a feet guy. I think, I think ODB was a feet guy. I'll write P2R1. But if there were men talking about women, because objectification is a part of sexual attraction. It is a part of it. And it's often the part that I found very difficult because all the ways in which I get objectified through my job are like horrible and intrusive and invasive, right? Like there was something like, I was trying to see if like, uh, we had special ones on Reddit.

No, they'll, they'll be there. They'll be there. Oh, but instead what I found was someone was, uh, asking if they could get someone else to role play as me to like do a rape thing. Right. I'm like, Oh my God. Oh yeah. But it's like, it's not like the first time I've seen things like that. That's insane shit. Oh yeah, it's like, it's really, so my relationship to being objectified is really shaped by violence, like just like so, so shaped by violence and to find ways to allow my partner to objectify

me where I know it is not dehumanizing, right? It's actually him experiencing attraction to me has been like a very fraught and something like delicate and fragile process. Like, it's so, like, you know, I need such thick walls to keep the outside outside to be able to enjoy that. But yeah, it's a part of attraction. And I think that if there were men talking about, you know, the things that they find attractive where, like, how other men view it wasn't in their minds. Like I would be like, oh, oh, but I don't know if their minds work in the same way. I don't know if like they pay such attention to the hand and the wrist or like, you know, like,

like sometimes, okay, so my partner's got like insanely soft feet. He doesn't deserve it. He does not deserve to have soft feet. He's never done anything to his feet. There've been no creams, no lotions, no potions, no buffing, no scruffing, no nothing. Right? Often his shoes are just falling apart and he's just like, oh, I'll get some at some point.

This is like many put Vaseline on their face. You have an amazing skin. He lived in denial about his shoe size for ages. So he was always wearing a size smaller because the size that he is is just like, a bit difficult to buy. Men are so funny. I know, I know. But his feet are like the softest baby feet you've ever felt in your So he's always wearing a size smaller because the size that he is is just like But like his feet are like the softest baby feet like you've ever felt in your life and I'm like but like You know like oh like this is this is a part of the sensory experience or like, you know When you see a man's pit, you gotta know that one smells good and I can't tell you how I know I just know I Just know like if I heard men talking about women in that way

I don't know if it's possible and I don't know if they do apart from- Oh they do, they all talk about like- They talk about soft bellies and like feet, not feet and hands. Like I've had men do that. Yeah, I've had men talk about that. I'd like to know.

Yeah, they talk about like- I'd like to know. I think a lot of it happens within the confines of an intimate relationship though. So you'll often hear it from boyfriends or you'll hear it from your girlfriends who'll tell you what their partners say about them. And I think I think I think they have probably have those discussions in smaller groups. But often when it's with men, they'll get to like our tits because unfortunately that's socialization.

But in one on one, you know, people will say to you, I love this thing about you. I really enjoy this. I love it when women do this or have this or et cetera. And it's often like a soft intimate thing rather than that scary like tits in your face. Do you want to know something funny before I move us along? Yeah, always. So this was my hen-do and my maid of honor, the wonderful, wonderful Nadia, like organized this game where my then fiance had to fill in certain questions and everyone had to guess what his answers would be when presented with the same questions. You did a couple's thing.

Right. Yeah, it was like a, it was like a couple's thing. And one of the questions was like Ash's most attractive body part. And, you know, some people said eyes, some people said hair. My fiance actually wrote hair, but my mom was like, it's the ass. It's the bunda. What are you talking about? She was so angry. She was like, how dare you not appreciate my daughter's ass? She was so mad. You know, when she found out that he'd written hair, she was like, the man's a idiot. He was probably respectful.

Well, he was. So like later I was like, oh, is it really her? He was like, no, no, no, it's us. But I didn't want to say that because I knew your mom would be there. I was like, no, she was, she was number one fucking like Bunda Defense League. We're in the Bunda Defense League. Like she was like... We're in the Bunda Defense League. Bunda Defense League.

That's the new movement sweeping the country, the Bunda Defense League. We're going up against reform. I guess, as soon as he said hair, I was like, this man's trying to be polite in front of everyone, like obviously. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was like, no, darling, it's actually your curvaceous little ass, don't worry. Let me objectify you a little bit. Just a little bit, a little bit. We should probably do a dilemma, although this segment has now made me feel deep, deep skin hunger and long for some touch.

So thanks. Thanks for that. That's what I wanted to do. I wanted to enjoy talking about something sensual. That's what I wanted to do. I wanted to enjoy talking about something sensual. That's what I wanted to do. That is great. I just don't have an outlet for it. So now I'm just going to have to like stand around and twiddle my thumbs for a bit. Sit on your hand until it goes dead. Do a wordle instead to get it all out. This is I'm in Big Trouble, our dilemma segment. And if you're in big trouble, and you would like us to try and address your problems, then send them to if I speak at

navaramedia.com. That's if I speak at navaramedia.com. We also accept compliments and comments. Right. Dear Asher Moyer, I'm in big trouble at work and can do with some advice. I'm British Chinese, 28, AFAB, and I work as a gardener on a big posh estate in England. It's a maternity cover job. Today at work, I overhead my eight-year-old boss and another gardener making very racist comments

about Pakistanis, comparing them to the non-Indigenous species of deer which keep nibbling all the plants, God stay classy, rural England. It's really rattled me. When I've heard people say bigoted stuff at work in the past, I've usually been able to challenge it, either in the moment or later, through the proper channels. I've had backup from colleagues. This is not something I feel I can do here. It's a small, fragmented workflow, and for all I know, they might also be racist. There's no structure of accountability for my boss, and no scope for me to say anything without feeling like an unprofessional, hysterical snowflake. Here's the thing. I love this job. It's well paid, it's a good professional experience, and very flexible.

I've struggled in work for years because I was on the autistic spectrum, and most workplaces haven't the resources to meet my reasonable adjustments. This is a great job for my autistic little brain. Loads of autonomy, not much pressure, I can work with my headphones on. It's so good that I ignored several major red flags in the interview. Like when my boss asked what my original language is, despite it very obviously being English. He also said, Well, you're very feminine, but I'm sure you're up to the job. I was wearing a plaid shirt and hiking trousers. The only thing particularly feminine about me is that day was I was I particularly

feminine me that day was that I literally just looked like a woman to him. I understand now how much I have compromised to have this job. I'm a fair skinned person of color, so I enjoy much more proximity of whiteness than my black and brown friends. And that helped me get a job which probably wouldn't have been available to them. But these comments felt like a threat to my dignity at work, even if they weren't directed at me. How can I call myself anti-racist and still work for a shriveled old bigot? I don't feel safe any work anymore, but the idea of finding another job feels very scary, because it's spring, so most gardens slash farms have already hired their workers for the season. Should I try and jump ship now, or keep my head down till November and then piss off?

So and maybe slash his tires on the way out yours anonymous and afraid And they've added a very funny PS which is the dumbest thing about this is the non-indigenous species of deer They were discussing were literally imported to the UK from China by the fucking Victorians for their stupid deer parks shake my head great fact at the end. Right. Just the same with Japanese knotweed. The Victorians imported it. Yeah, we imported a lot of stuff

that now we complain about. Which is funny. So many deer up there in my head. Anyway, sorry, I'm getting on tangent. Right, should this worker stay in their job with the bigoted boss or should they quit? Would the bigoted boss or should they quit? I've got advice that I'm not sure you're gonna like. Sorry, I had to introduce it with the song.

You say that there's no scope for you to bring it up and that you're feeling very unsafe. And I wonder actually if by initiating a conversation, you might feel safer and you might feel better because it doesn't have to be a conversation where you are seeking accountability. I don't know what the social world around this job is like. I don't know if you go for coffee breaks together or occasionally to the pub or something like that. But if you were in that kind of social, you know, third space, what it might be like to say, hey, you know, and you made those comments,

it made me feel these ways. Like I just, I, because otherwise you are boxed into this place where it's put up and shut up or leave. And I think that feeling trapped and stuck and passive is contributing to your feeling a lack of safety. I don't think that working in a racist environment necessarily does compromise you as an anti-racist. I mean, jobs are jobs. I've worked in racist environments before. When I say racist environments, I mean, I've worked alongside, not at Navara, I should say, but I've worked alongside some individuals who said and did some completely insane things. But I was poor and I needed the paycheck. So don't internalize that into your sense of self would be my advice. But I think that look,

safety is on a scale and I think you've got to really carefully think about whether or not there are threats to your safety or whether you are being made to feel uncomfortable, unseen and unwelcome. Because it sounds a little bit more like the latter rather than the former. And if it is the latter rather than the former, right? Where unsafety is like, oh, I think that there are real threats to my wellbeing here as opposed to like, I do not feel good in this space. Is that if you don't feel good in the space, I would initiate a conversation and then see where it goes. See where it goes. Because if there's one thing about Brits, if there's one thing about Brits,

they want to be polite more than anything else. And if they have reached that level of politeness, there is embarrassment. And I think that there is a way to tap into that, even if you can't completely change their views on things like immigration and gender. What do you reckon, Moya? I think it's really difficult. It's really difficult. I've been in jobs as well where people have said, crazy shit, and I have actually talked to them about it. And it caused them to grovel on their knees in fear that I'd report them, which I did not do. Kind of wish I did, but then also what was the fucking point of it? Like, they'd been reported for so many other things and still always failed upwards.

I do agree with Ash in the sense that... Actually, I don't know. I really don't know. It's difficult because I worry that you're going to like, spend the next how many months till November, just further feeling alienated and worried and scared if you don't address this in some way, even if it's just a light conversation. And then the gaps where that conversation could be, then you'll just retreat more into yourself and the fear of like, what else they're thinking, what else they're saying, what else they're doing, and getting very paranoid. None of that's your fault. But that is where the brain goes when there isn't like something concrete to hold on to, to know about what someone's

thinking. You've had a glimpse that they've got these ugly thoughts and feelings and sentiments, and then you fill in the rest. And that's when something that makes you uncomfortable and offensive language, offensive sort of ways of being become akin in your mind to like a direct threat to your safety. And I wonder if we're also like blurring the lines. I read in the book recently about this guy who is called the

gift of fear by Gavin De Becker. And it's all about violence and predicting violence and very, very good. It's mostly about psychology really. And in that book, he talks about the blurring of lines between safety and justice in reference particularly to battered women, as he puts it. to battered women, as he puts it. And he's saying like, often you will not get justice if you want to be safe. Those are two different things. And in sort of abusive relationships, he says his goal is to keep his clients safe,

which means removing them from the situation, removing them from proximity to this person. He cautions often against against using restraining orders because in a lot of cases that actually aggravates the perpetrator more, usually a man, because his goal is the control of the client, the power and the dominance and being thwarted and humiliated in the public sphere makes this person more likely to enact more violence. Restraining orders are just a piece of paper. He's like, if you come to me, you're not coming to me for justice, you're coming to me for safety. And I want people to remember that. And I wonder in this letter bit with blurring the

lines between the idea of like justice, which is holding this person to account and getting them to change their ways and like all of this and safety, which is where you're like, I'm feeling unsafe because I can't do this stuff. And I think if you think more about like, okay, I can't change this person's mind, what do I actually just need to do in this moment to make myself feel less feel safer, is kind of leads me back to what Ash said, which is, you need to have a conversation, because then you have more, you know, where you stand. And that conversation, I wouldn't be about preaching, I like I wouldn preaching. I wouldn't just go in thinking that you're there, as Ash said, to change their minds.

You're there to just say, you know, if they bring up, say, hey, I'm not sure about that. Like, taxi drivers all the time say weird stuff to me about things. Because we'll be chatting away, and I'll be like, oh, there's a lot of Chinese around. They do this in Glasgow a lot. They're like, there's a lot of Chinese around.

Oh, they're weird, aren't they? And I'll be like, I don't think so. I don't think they're weird at all. And then they shut up, because they know it's not a space where they can say that around me. And if they'll go further, then I'll be like, I disagree. I don't think that's true.

Ah, but it's, you know, this. And you don't have to have a full-on confrontation with someone to get the point across. And if they keep going, then you know that actually, maybe this is an environment that probably isn't good for you long-term. if they keep going, then you know that actually, maybe this is an environment that probably isn't good for you longterm, but if they stop, then you know that you can kind of stick it out until November.

I just, I think when you're thinking about safety, think about safety versus staying in this job and having a conversation first of all, or leaving this job and not having any money and being in a precarious situation, which is actually more unsafe for you right now, weigh that up and then you'll have your answer. I think like I'd tack on just two very quick things

because I think you've put it very well. First thing is that feeling safe and being safe are also two different things. So think about what you might need to feel safe is not always the same as what you need to be safe because our feelings of safety are informed by so much more than what the situation at hand is. Right? Like, you know, and this is something which I deal with all the time. There are so many ways in which I am safe and I do not feel safe. And if I turn that into trying to adjust and adjust and adjust the situation around me, like it never actually gets me to the place that I want to be. Like it just doesn't. And so

this is something which, you know, in terms of race and feelings of racialized violence, like I really understand it. I really understand it. But it's been helpful for me to know that feeling safe and being safe are not always the same thing. The second thing is that in order for you to be seen and recognized as human by these individuals, they also have to be human to you. And it doesn't mean that if you acknowledge their humanity and you treat them with empathy, that you're always going to get it back. Sometimes you don't. Sometimes people are just nasty and bigoted and awful. But what I do know for a fact is that nothing shifts without some real mutual recognition. And I think that this is where this is where some of the CBT stuff about being able to separate how something has made you feel from the actual sort of stimulant, which would like in this case be the person and the situation I think is useful. It doesn't mean that what they've done isn't wrong. It doesn't mean that, you know, these opinions are fine. It just means that

you're giving them a bit more space to move towards you if you're not coming with the kitchen sink and the everything all at once. So mutual recognition of humanity, important, feeling safe, being safe, recognizing that those two things are different, also important. Shall we wrap up here? Let's wrap up. Let's say bye. Bye. Love you.

Come to our show on the 21st of May. We're planning our fits. Which thing am I going to wear? I'm not planning my fit at all. I'm planning with my condensed wardrobe, which is difficult. It's difficult. I'm just going to see how bloated I feel on the day and go from there. Bloating is psychological you know. Bloating is all

psychological. Yeah I also do eat a lot of salt. No no no Ash I'm telling you right now it's like eczema. So when I have my eczema it's always psychological. I can have stresses and symptoms that, symptoms rather, the um I can have stresses and symptoms that symptoms other the I can stress is like if I use washing up liquid when my eczema has been triggered, then yeah, it'll get worse. But that's not the cause. bloating. I'm telling you the gut is always psychological. I've got friends who have like chronic bloating. And it always is a flare up when something's going on with anxiety, brain, whatever. And they've tried literally every sort of external fix, everything that would treat bodily cause. It's not that.

It's honestly the brain. Your body is crazy. The moment it's stressed, it will show you. The moment I'm stressed, it shows me. I'm not I'm not disputing it. I'm not disputing it. I am also suggesting that when I inhale two tubes of Pringles, this may also have. OK, two tubes of Pringles inhale two tubes of Pringles, this may also have an impact. Okay, two tubes of Pringles. Two tubes of Pringles. It's been done before. And it will happen again.

I'm not going to shame you. I'm not going to shame you because I used to be at one Pringle tube of Roque-Alain. And then I looked at it and I was like, oh my God, I did not realize. What the fuck are they putting in those Pringles? They shouldn't carry that much. They shouldn't carry that much, like they shouldn't carry that much. They should be less, you know, they're crazy anyway. Anyway, but two tubes. Should we leave it there? Yeah. Wait, what Pringles do you eat? Ready salted.

Best flavour. Best fucking flavour. Best hand flavour of Pringle. So I'm gonna go second, but ready, so. Okay, right. You know what? Final thought, final, final thought. Something that invites me to want to touch the Pringle man's mustache. Yeah, I want to strike that. Alright, bye. Bye.