If I Speak - 65: Has your smartphone broken your brain?

Episode Date: May 20, 2025

Ash and Moya face up to all the ways their smartphone has warped their minds. Plus, advice for a trans woman struggling to interact with the world in the wake of the Supreme Court ruling. Come and see If I Speak in London on 21st May! Final tickets are available now from Dice. Send your […]

Hello! Hello! I'm currently wrapped in a blanket So I'm even, I don't know, more smashy into the mic than usual. You're wrapped in a blanket because, although I make great acoustics, that'll really soften the acoustics being wrapped in a blanket. I mean, not when I'm getting caught on the pop shield. How are you, Maria?

Um, how am I? I'm actually really good. I'm really good. I'm doing a lot of thinking though. Don't do a lot of thinking, guys. Let me just warn you against that. You should never think. Stop thinking. Don't think. Talk instead. That's what podcasts are for. What's going on with you? I've got too comfortable with this podcast because I'm drinking coffee

at the same time. You know what? I had an incredibly wholesome friendship weekend. It was really, really nice. So on Friday, I caught up with a friend who I've not seen for a while, who's moved back to the city, then went for cocktails. Love a cocktail me, an old fashioned, so good. Saturday, hung out with some more friends and like did a little bit of communing with nature. What did nature say? Which brings me, Okay.

Brings me to my icebreaker questions for you. Are you ready? I'm so ready. I'm actually stretching. That's how ready I am. All right, limber up. First question. When's the last time you communed with nature?

Well, how deep does the communing have to be? Like describe what you mean by communing. Cause I go for a walk every day. For me, it was a walk through the park and then looking at my garden when I'd had a little bit of Shumi chocolate and I was like oh my god the plants are so friendly. You were like the biggest consumer of Shumi chocolate in North London. Love it. Well do I have to be under the influence of... No no no, no, no, I'm saying that's what it was for me. That's what it was for me. It was me being like, the tree's waving at me.

I think I commune with nature every day, not to brag. Not to brag too much. No, I commune with nature a lot. So I go for a walk to a park, has to be to a green space, at least three times a week. And walk around and just think about grass and trees and lots of other thoughts as well. But that's how I touch, I literally touch grass and I have a favourite park in both London and a park in Glasgow that I go to regularly. Because of proximity, but also they've just become the faves. And there, but I have to get to a park, I have to be around some grass, I have to be around some trees. And then when I did some deep dive community nature, that

was probably about that was Easter, because I went home and I walked every single day on a long 10k loop around the common into the woods down by the fish pools through the blue bells back out again, It's all just green. It's just green and sheep and lambs and trees and deer. So I did a lot of looking and thinking about this world and how small I am and how big it is and how the fields will be here long after I'm gone, even if they're changing, the climate's changing

and all the bones that are in them and how we become dust, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. And the fact I'd seen like a funeral in there, like lots of different things. The last time I cried at Nature was last Wednesday, which was I was walking through Necropolis in Glasgow and- And you thought about Captain Tom? No. Why would Captain Tom be in Necropolis in Glasgow?

I don't know. That was just the first thing that popped into my head. I was walking through the Necropolis in Glasgow and there is a... So from my window, I'd seen there's this big empty patch that's been there for months and like it's slightly... it's got like a small white fence around it and it's in the bottom. So the Necropolis is on like several tiers. There's like the big bit at the top of the hill and then there's a big bit at the bottom and there's graves on all of them and it's very full of nature.

And right now Glasgow is absolutely blooming because it's spring and it's rained and everything's very lush and fresh. And when I walk, I hadn't looked out of my window at this patch for ages. So when I walked down, down the Acropolis into the bottom bit and it was about 7am, I did an early morning walk and I got a real shock because it was all wild flowers and they were so beautiful. They were, it was like lots of tulips actually, lots of tulips. I'm not a huge, huge tulip fan, but these were the kinds that were kind of feathery. So there's tulips and other wildflowers and I looked at it and there was this little sign on the fence that I'd never noticed because I

never bothered walking down right down to this. I've always walked past it and because it's just a patch and it said that this was the memorial for 8,000 unmarked graves that were underneath And it said that this was the memorial for 8,000 unmarked graves that were underneath the wildflower do. And I just started crying because it was more moving than any of the stone graves. Because I was like, oh, that is such a powerful memorial. It was such a powerful way of marking those people's lives and deaths. It was so beautiful. The fact that it bloomed slowly and come up. I was just incredibly moved by it and moved by nature, moved by the cyclical nature of nature. So that was the last time I probably communed on a deep, deep level. Does that answer your question? Favorite herb? Favorite herb? What's my favorite herb? Rosemary.

Next. Associated with memory. That's good, I like that. I associate it with roast potatoes, but whatever. I associate it with my memories of roast potatoes. And finally, do you wear perfume?

And if so, what is your most frequent spritz? I have a signature scent, babes. I've got a signature scent. And I've had a signature scent since 2016. My signature scent is Cannabis Oil by Marlin and Goetz. And if any of you motherfuckers go out and buy it and ruin it for me, I will be so pissed off. Get stuffed.

No, I'm sorry, that was very aggressive, but I'm very territorial. I'm very territorial. So I have an territorial. I'm so aggressive. I'm very territorial. So I have an everyday. I've got an everyday and no other vanilla scent has ever worked as well for me as this one. It's Vanilla Nu from Beauty Pie. And it's kind of amazing

because I tried lots of expensive ones and da da da da da, but this is perfect because it's a little bit soft oriental so it's not just like a You know like a sweet treat hitting you in the face. I love it. I think it's one of the best smells I love it so much, but what I've realized is that the note which I like is because it's got a base note of benzoin and so Benzoin? I lots of benzoin.

How do I say it? I'm thinking about benzos like the drug. It's got some Xanax. It's got a real Xanax-y note in there. So that's been, yeah, like that's the note which, and if that's the base note of a perfume, like I'm probably going to like it. But I've been, I got a few perfume samples so I could like try some out. And the like top note, the like very quick review of it

was Jo Malone, Jasmine, Sam Back, really, really nice. Really, really nice. And then I looked through it and what's the base note? It's Benzoin. So this is the thing that you love. So that's the thing which I think is like the base that I love. What's your goal with perfume?

Because also when I go out, I wear now, I put on, so I wear like cocoa butter all the time and I always oil. Yeah. I also wear like Lush's date thing. It's called Sticky Dates. Cause it's, Annie put me onto it cause this girl on Love Island had it.

She says, I always want to smell delicious. And it honestly smells like chocolate. So I wear that as well as my perfume. But my goal is always to smell edible. Like whether that's citrusy, whether it's chocolatey, whether it's vanilla, I want someone to want to eat me, which is what this girl said as well. But, and I was like, that articulates exactly

what my goal has been for so long. Like I want someone to smell it. And lots of people have come up and been like, that's actually the best compliment someone can give me. I know we talked about this before. When someone comes up and they say, you smell amazing. And people have done this to me and they're like, you smell so good.

I always want to smell good. I want to smell good. Look, I always want to smell good. I think maybe for me, like too edible. I don't like. You don't want to smell like a sweetie. Yeah, there's something about like too edible, which is like, I don't know, a little,

like for me, it's like, that's not what I want. It's like maybe a tiny bit juvenile for me, just like a little bit. And like I tried some like super duper Gourmand perfumes recently, I tried Acro Bake, which like for me starts like so lemony, like it's like really, really like lemon oil, but then it becomes quite sweet and I liked it. Like I was like, oh, I really, I'm enjoying the smell,

but it just wasn't my personality. It's too childish, yeah, it becomes quite sweet. And I liked it. Like I was like, Oh, I really, I'm enjoying the smell, but it just wasn't, wasn't my personality. It's too childish. Yeah, it's too childish. Too childish. Then I tried the chocolate greedy by Montale, which just smells like cocoa pops on me. Yeah. And then I was like, okay, well, maybe I'm a grownup, so I'm going to try a Tom Ford one. So I tried Bitter Peach and it smelled like my friend told me, I was completely wrong about this, but I was like like it smells like sweaty taint There's a base note of sweaty taint. Yeah, just wrong

Yeah, I think I think for me it's gonna be sexy and woody and was edible. I've not found I've not found anything as good as my Vinyl knew but I did like the Jemma line. Um, shall we move on? Yes Let's let's move hastily on. Let's beep beep. So we've got a mystery question today. However, my phone is off and in the other room I've just realized, so it's going to have to come to Ash. All right, hang on. Wait, I've got to turn it on.

Look at us. Look at us. Disconnected. All right, there we go. Hit me. Right, mystery question. Wait, I've got to turn it on. Look at us. Look at us. Disconnected. All right. There we go. Hit me. Right. Mystery question. Beep beep. Peep peep.

Beautiful ding. What a solid ding. Oh no. I don't like this question one bit because... I don't like it. Great reaction. I'm excited. Oh, I don't like it. I don't want to dig into this about myself. All right, but let's go. Oh, perfect, let's go. How do you think your smartphone has changed your brain?

Oh, oh. Oh, I mean, to be fair, this is too easy. This is almost too easy, isn't it? Oh, I don't want to, oh, I hate thinking about this myself because I'm just like, I'm an idiot. Right, well, this is ripe, let's go. Okay, Ash, do you remember when we started talking about femininity and I was like, no, I don't want to discuss this in a second. And that meant it was really good. Let's go. When we talk, why don't you want to talk about the smartphone changing your brain?

Like what comes to your mind when that question is asked of you? It's made me stupider. It's made me more anxious, it's shortened my attention span. I probably have less fun because of it and while it certainly has been good for my career in the sense that, I don't know, like without and without social media, would I have ever become a journalist? I mean, probably not. So, I mean, that's one good thing. But I would like to feel less like my nerves are constantly being low level stimulated. Because that really is the base note of anxiety. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. The sense that there is something just running over your nerves that you can never drop down fully into your body because there's going to be something that requires your attention. And knowing that I've got a portal to all sorts of things that demand my attention, ranging from the genuinely interesting and illuminating all the way to the horrific and the violent. Not good. When you say it's made you stupider, why do you think that? What are we talking about here?

Why do you think that? What are we talking about here? I just feel like it must have. Like it must make me a stupider person. It must, because it invites you to communicate before you think. So if we're thinking about muscles growing or atrophying through use or idleness, if the muscle which is getting worked a lot is talk first, think later, rather than think first, sit with it, be deep and then talk,

well that must make me stupider. What about connection? How does it impact your connections? Both people you know and people you don't know. Oh, it's actually probably been really good. Like it's probably actually been fine for that. Like I'm close with my friends. I'm in touch with my friends. I see my friends in real life a lot. I think, okay, the one thing which like I can't stand is family group chats. I'm in there, I'm in there because if you're not in there, it's taken as a statement. Do you know what I mean?

Or like certainly within my family, it's taken as a statement, but I cannot abide the family group chat. But how does it make you view other people? Like people you don't know, et cetera. And I'm not saying just through the lens of it. Like, do you think that it's impacted how you approach connections

or how you perceive other people will be approaching you? Yeah, well, it has changed how people approach me. I mean, something happened a little while ago, which I found really weird. There were a lot of people in my home because my housemate was doing something which required lots and lots of people in my home because my housemate was doing something which required lots and lots of people to be coming through the home.

And I spent a lot of the day just like kind of like in my room working, but like, you know, come down. And I also, because my housemate was so busy, I wanted to like keep him fed. So just like every so often make him something, bring him some food. And one of the people that came around was like, really nice to meet you. I didn't know you lived here, da, da, da. Can I have a photo with you? And I was like, it's really kind, but I don't-

In your own house. But I was like, this is really kind, but this is my home. So like, I don't do this here. And then this person, I caught them taking a sneak photo of me. And I saw them do it in the kind of like low angle of the phone and then like noticing me noticing and then sort of scurrying away. And I felt so violated. So, so violated because I'd specifically said no. I'd been nice about it. I'd explained why. And I still feel quite grossed out because I'm like this was in my this was in my home like you did this to me in my home and I haven't seen them since but

if I do I am actually gonna rip their asshole out of their body. That's hilarious but that is all that is I'm so fascinated by the relationship people have with photography and phones, and having observed it myself, I think the desire to capture is not, it's not actually about capturing that moment at all. It's because people are outsourcing their experience to the camera.

They're outsourcing the idea of like, the proof that I was here, the proof, I was reading an essay recently. How do I tell this story to other people? How do I tell this story to other people? Also, you never think of all the fucking photos you take. How many do you actually look back at? Yeah, not that many. Not that many. They're very ephemeral. They're either going on social media or they just sit in your phone. And when we dig into like the, why would you take a photo just just sit in your phone. And when we dig into like the, why do you, why would you take a photo just to sit in your phone? It's not getting developed, you're not putting on the wall. It's just there to sit. So in that moment, when you're taking that photo, what is the purpose of that? Is it that you don't trust yourself to experience this on a level and

you're trying to freeze it forever, archive it, and then you never look at it again, because you've already, like in the moment, because you've interrupted your experience of it by taking a photo, it ceases to be a moment that you actually experiences, and instead becomes simply the action of taking this photo. So you've ruined it anyway, like I think, like, if you go to a concert, I dare listeners who have a habit of filming stuff at concerts, to try this, go to a concert where you film something through your phone phone or take loads

of pictures all the time and a concert getting your phone out thinking I've got to get a picture this I've got to get a picture this and then go to a concert where you're not doing that and see which one you remember. Yeah. See which one you actually store in your memory because what we're doing is we're using the phone as an external tool and this is how it changes brains. We're using the phone as an external tool as like an external hard drive for our actual memory, like our actual recollections. We're using the phone to store the memories as if we can recall them the way we would if they were in our brains, but they're not in our fucking brains because you've done, you've outsourced the action to your phone.

So I keep doing this thing where, and I'm doing it for several years now, where I'm like, I'll be on, I know, I'll be somewhere and I'll see something so beautiful that I have to take a photo. I want to take a photo. And instead of taking a photo, I'll go, no, take a photo with your eyes. It's called a memory because one you cannot capture the beauty of a sunset over the bridge with your phone. I'm sorry, it's not going to look on your phone the way it looks in your eyes. You cannot capture all of it. You could maybe get closer with a professional camera,

set up on the right tripod from the right angle, if you understood light and composition, but what you are seeing, and the beauty and majesty of what you are seeing is never gonna be realized by your phone. And that's also not why you're doing it. You're doing it for a reason you are not even comprehending.

There's another mechanism going on. If you really want to be in that moment, you have to stay in that moment. You have to stick with that moment and not try and interrupt it. Why are we always trying to interrupt our experience of life now with the phones? That is a huge question.

But yeah, that person, they're not taking that photo even so they could show it to other people. They're taking that photo for some reason, like that they probably don't even quite understand that they have to get you on camera. Some sort of proof just that you're on camera that they were there and you were there and they will never look at it again. Unless they're like accidentally saw it too. I think they were sending it to a friend because they said to me like, oh I want a photo with

you because my friend's going to freak out. And I was like, so I think it was way of being like- That's equally as bad. It's like, why are you doing this to your friend? Why do you have to send them a photo? Why can't you just say, I met Ash today? I should be allowed to dash your phone. Yeah, you should. Like I should be fully allowed to dash your phone. But this links into this recent discussion

about playing music out loud or playing calls out loud or playing TikToks or whatever out loud. Oh man. So I go to yoga a lot. I try and go to yoga three times a week. I only managed one last week because I turned 33 and immediately hurt my back. So it's been like a little bit. I've got sciatica if that helps. Oh shit. My mom's got sciatica. Well it's just a trap nerve but it's like I've hurt my back.

I had to do lots of gentle stretching at home before I could like go to a class. So it was my first class back and there were these two girls who were like, both American. So, you know, that was, that was strike one. You know, strike two was, I get it. It's like, you're young, you're in your twenties and you think your conversation is really, really interesting.

So it's just occurring at a volume, which is like that bit more intrusive for everybody else. And so I was like trying to, I was trying to be my best self and I was gonna be like, okay, like what you're feeling is judgment. You're being very judgmental of other people. And then what that does is that that makes you feel

more judgmental of yourself. And that's not gonna be an experience that you want, right? So like try and let go of this judgment. Just try and let the noises of their conversation and the inane conversation about the boyfriend's brother, just like let it pass you by. And then one of them started like showing a video on their phone with the noise turned up.

And this is like when we're all waiting to like get into yoga and so people are like beginning to center in themselves. And again, that should be another situation where I'm allowed to dash your phone. Like legally I should be allowed to dash the phone. And then I was like, no, being too judgmental. And then in the class, in the class when like,

you know, we're cobra-ing and we are, you know, downward facing dogging, we should never use dogging as a verb, like that means something different. You know, but we're doing this thing, like they were both like, like, chanting to each other. And I was like, lady, shut the fuck up.

But that, the thing, you know, I was able to sort of like get my head around, like accepting like the intrusion of noise until it was that specific tinnyness that came from something on the phone in your environment that you're not privy to with the sound turned up. Yeah, I think there's been a lot of articles about this. People playing, you know, music in spaces that all... Most often it's like on a TikTok video or an Instagram video and sometimes it'll be you're taking a call on speakerphone and sometimes it will be just like you're listening to music. But often I've seen on trains recently where it's just people playing videos out loud.

Yeah. But what I haven't seen is an exploration of psychology behind it. And I'm really interested in that. I think it comes from seeing other people's NPCs. I think that's part of it. I think it comes from a phone addiction so strong as well, which is all part of this, that you can no longer separate between, as you say, like your experience of something and how other people are perceiving it or even think that they can hear it or affecting them, which I think is what you're saying about NPCs, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Like, basically, it's like, well, I'm, you know, basically, the world is my experience of it. Yeah. Other people don't really have experiences of it. They don't really have things that they would rather be doing. They don't have thoughts and priorities when they're in the space with me. They don't have interiority the way in which I have interiority.

But I think it's, yeah, I think it's that. And it's when people are playing music or videos, it's often like a fleeting thing. They'll watch it for a second. And it's because they're registering it so little. They think everyone around them is registering it so little as well. So they become so desensitized even to the stimulation.

They're so overstimulated, they don't notice this is stimulation anymore. That they're like, oh, it won't disturb anyone. It's not disturbing anyone. Cause they can't hear what it sounds like when you're just sitting on the tube and suddenly there's like, well, you're on a train and someone's playing TikToks out loud

about match of the day, which happened to me a couple of days ago. And I was just flabbergasted, just kept going. And I really want to understand this quite, it comes from a deep separation from other people's experience and also a separation from your experience. You are so locked into your phone world that you,

it's not you've forgotten you're in public, it's that public has become a complete, like you're in a bubble. When you're off in the phone, you're in a bubble. You're in a bubble at home, you're in a bubble in the world, you're in a bubble in the cinema, and you really don't think that outside of this bubble,

people can hear what you're hearing or see what you're seeing. And the stimulation is so much that you don't even recognise it as that. That's why I think. I think that's in there. I think also part of it is that like I was talking about this with a friend at the weekend, which was about the tragedy of the commons, which is also this idea that public space isn't something that we're creating all together. So, you know, what you do, you know, if you are playing shit off your phone or whatever, that's like spoiling it for everyone.

And so then like in that, and also no one's going to, especially in England, especially in London, maybe, that people aren't just going to be like, can you put some headphones in? Because like we don't do that, right? We're all just so frozen and paralyzed in ourselves and we don't want to be impolite and we're scared of what happens if we interact with another human being that we don't know. If that, then you've, you know, you've got a government like ours being like, okay, well, the only means we have to stop people doing these things which are like annoying and shit is like £1000 fine. It wasn't the government, it was the Liberal Democrats. Oh, it was the Liberal Democrats, you're right.

The government is so right. The Liberal Dems were like, this is a policy that's going down like hotcakes. Let's get behind this. It wasn't the government. I wish Labour would suggest something like that. If they were to really do anti-social behaviour, that's the only one I'm really like, let's go. Let's go. Let's get punitive.

But also I think like one thing I would say I want to keep is sometimes people playing music off the phones at the back of the bus. I'd rather not, but whatever. I would say I want to keep is sometimes people playing music off the phones at the back of the bus. I'd rather not but whatever. But it's the proliferation of it en masse and that's a sign that people's brains have been changed. Their way of experiencing the world has changed, the way they understand the world has changed and the way they're interacting with the world has completely changed because they're just in their phones. And I'm saying this as someone who you know is only recently trying to break that cycle. I was going to ask you about this. So I've got two things. One is a very, very quick, I guess, like positive phone anecdote. And then the second is a question. Tell the positive phone anecdote.

Okay. Positive phone anecdote is that actually a smartphone really allows me to keep an intimate friendship going where we send each other lots of voice notes. And that means that we don't have to schedule calls, which is sometimes difficult. We do it whenever we can, we schedule calls. But it's a way of being let in to the innermost thoughts and feelings of your best friend. So that's been something which has been really important, over distance voice notes. And it's a really special thing when I get one, it feels like a special thing when I send one. We've got a whole lexicon for them, we call them mini podcasts. That's been something that's really important. And then the second thing, and I was thinking about how use of messaging has changed over the course of my relationship,

which is at the start, you've got the sweet agony of thinking about every tiny bit of the message you send. And then when you're in the early stages of the relationship where it is an extended seduction period, right? Like you're trying to like create that bond and that certainty and that companionship, like through seduction and sensuality, is that, you know, it sends sexy photos and stuff. I have not sent a sexy photo in so, so long, but the thing which me and my partner

do, you know, most days is I don't want to say what it is because I don't want to spoil the specialness of it, but there is a particular genre of really dumb photo that we take and send to the other person. And it's a way of saying, I love you. I'm thinking of you. You're in my brain, but it demands no response. Like it's, it's because you can't do that. You know, we've been together seven years now, right? You can't do that seven years in where you're like demanding.

They're like, Hey, are you thinking of me too? Like, it's very much like, I'm thinking of you. You don't have to respond to this. We understand that as the genre of the photo. So there are these ways in which the things that you do, the ways in which you send messages, it can become part of the stitching between you and someone else. You can also send notes and letters and postcards.

This is the thing about smartphones. But those are too cloying. Those are too cloying. Like, like they would be too cloying for me and my partners, do we? Again, at early stages of the relationship, we used to, in the morning, leave handwritten notes, which were really romantic and stuff like that. And now I do it for special occasions.

They're too cloying just because you have the option of the smartphone, but I am fully on board with the idea that even though smartphones are now integral to the world we've built and we've knitted them in, I do think they have done more harm than good to our little brains. And I think a lot of the excuses we made about what we can't use, et cetera, et cetera,

don't actually stack up. Like, it's because we were talking about this the other day, the frictionless thing, like it takes more effort. If you wanted to write non-clawing notes, you'd write non-clawing notes. But it's just because you have this other option. No, I think with the notes, it's not that, with the notes, it's really not that because the...

You'd find, if you didn't have the option, you'd find a way. It's just cause you have this option. There's this way. I mean, sure we'd find a way, but the thing I'm saying is that like, we had smartphones in the period where we were writing the notes. We had the option, but we've allowed the smartphone to be this thing, which is non-demanding. But I've got a question for you. The question is this. Yes.

You've been in phone recovery. I'm trying to be in phone recovery. It's hard, but I'm trying to do it. I wrote this on my newsletter this morning. My SIM is back on my phone because an excuse that I've made for do it. I wrote this on my newsletter this morning. My SIM is back on my phone because an excuse that I've made for myself is that I actually can't ride my bike without GPS, which is very hard.

I could do that if I really fucking put the effort in to sort of black cab memorize every road and had a proper like drawn out map and also baked in about 20 extra minutes to 30 minutes of my journey. I've actually got something which I could give you. What is it? So it looks like a little compass.

And you put it onto your bike and you connect it to an app so you can put the destination in your phone, check the phone somewhere else, and then the little compass will show you arrows of what directions you're supposed to go. That is very useful. Maybe I'll try that because I want to get better directions anyway because I think again so much of this problem with phones is outsourcing our thinking to the phone.

Oh it's enfeebled you, it's atrophied you because the muscles you don't use. But what are the differences that you're noticing in your behaviour, in your psychology, in your body? What's it like? Well, it's interesting, I've noticed when I get compulsions to look at my phone, so I'll pick stuff up and just click it. And those compulsions only... Yeah, I had a pedometer, which I need to get another one because I accidentally washed it. That's the problem with extra gadgets. Sometimes they'll leave you wash them, you'll leave them in their pockets and they will

get washed and they'll die. But there's an urge to click things and tap things and look at things and open stuff. Every time my brain has a down moment, I'm looking for something to sort of like fill it because I need that stimulation. But when my phone is off, there is a great sort of like weight off me because I know there's no notifications coming and my brain isn't constantly checking. It wants to, but it's not, it knows that the phone is off.

When my phone is on, it wants to check way more. It's aware when my phone is off. It knows when my phone is off. It knows when the notifications can't come through versus when I should check it just in case they have come through, which is fascinating. Yeah, when I like in the morning, I haven't got a radio yet in where I am. So I'm buying one, but like this morning I had my phone off, but if I hadn't had my phone off,

I definitely would have like just gone on to have noise. So I just had to sit without the noise. And that was very like, once the initial panic is over, it's very calm. And you can actually think, I'm doing a lot more thinking and I've read a lot. I've read like four books, which is also interesting, because it's just like, I do, I need to fill my, when I'm bored, I want to fill my brain with space. And I'll do that. I've had like six ideas for think projects I want to do as well, which I don't have time to do obviously, but all of that, and I'm planning different things. So it's just like my brain will fill the space. And if I gave it that space, it would actually work. I don't know if I'm doing

thinking smarter yet, but I'm definitely thinking more, which is a start. So I haven't been doing a methaphone, but certainly for the last few weeks, I've been trying to think about how do I use my phone when I want to have fun? So again, me and my partner do like, we call it algo time, where you just do like a little bit of like Instagram reels together so you can laugh together. It's a bit like watching stupid TV together. Like, okay, this algo time, then you put it down. And so then when I'm alone, I'm like, okay, algo time is not for, it's not for when you're alone.

And one of the things that I found myself doing is writing for fun. Little snapshots, little scenes, little bits of short story. There's like a bigger writing project that I'm interested in doing and I've been working on that as well. But also just like writing things which are like unconnected to it. Like completely unconnected. Yeah, and it's been really, really nice. I'm trying to work out and it's a way of also trying to work out like how do I write dialogue that feels real and then going back and editing it and taking stuff out to try and make it sound like, okay, these are characters, they're not fully real, but they talk in a way which resembles real

people rather than full perfect sentences. And that's been really nice. It's been really nice. And it has also had the benefit of taking me further away from my phone. I mean, like one last very, very quick question. How different do you think your life would be if a phone could only be used to make calls again? No texting, no internet, no nothing. How do you think it might change how you live, how you connect with people?

Do I have, is it, is it that phones have always only had this or is it just now they've reverted? Well, no, no, no, I'm saying like, if, if, if your phone, like, and it could still be, you know, like a dumb phone, sort of smartphone, but, you know, with features taken off, it could be a flip phone, it could be a bakelite with the two separate bits and you hold one to the ear and one to the mouth and you say, Miriam's dead. And then you chuck it away. I mean, like, are we saying, are we imagining this from like the age of 18 or imagining this from- No, I'm saying right now. Right now. Like if that changed.

If it changed immediately, I think it would take time for people to call again. But I already was talking to people more on the phone when I had a flip phone. I noticed that changed. I still have it and I need to put this in back in it. But I noticed immediately like I called people more because it was just like quicker and easier.

I think I would talk to people in the street more because I'd be wanting that connection. Like I noticed that as well. I talked to strangers more, especially when I was in a place where I didn't have that immediate friend thing. I'd go around to friends' houses more, I think. I just think I would be more willing to interact with the world around me

if my phone could only make calls and I couldn't just text someone for a sort of junk food illusion of connection. Because this is something I've realised being away from. My friends, WhatsApp is great at managing relationships in the short term when you're distant from people, but it's it's got limitations and those limitations like you can send a voice note, but people can't hear you like they can't see you they can't get and I know people use FaceTime or whatever, but all

of these things, they have a limit they have a limit to how much they can like furnish connection, there's gaps and then those gaps can form misunderstandings and misreadings, and it's only when you like get on the phone or can finally see someone in person that you can buttress those relationships a bit more. And I think we just go to WhatsApp so much because it's like that frictionless flat register,

which is so easy, but we don't realize what we're being robbed of at the same time. I'm quite pessimistic now about a lot of technology, even though obviously I'm still engaged in using it. But I want to find a way where I'm not like that because I think it's a very boring position to be in, just being like, oh, waves fist at cloud and the cloud is shaped like an android. But I do think there's such defensiveness when people talk about logging in, they're like, I can't log off. I can't do this and I can't do that.

And I get it, I get it, we're all phone addicts. If that was, if you like, if, you know, think about not to be boring again, but like the classic thing of think about if you talked about heroin or used heroin the same way you do your phone or even alcohol, although a lot of y'all do and we'll talk about that another day because we are a nation of alcoholics and we've completely normalised that. But yeah, a lot of us are massive phone addicts and we make all these excuses

which are really just ways to keep up our hits. Yeah, well, you know what? Heroin never showed me endless videos of when dogs and cats become friends. That's not true. If you did, you'd better hallucinate into that. I bet you could, I bet heroin could give you some crazy visions. Shall we move along? Let's move along. Let's move along. Um, it's I'm in big trouble. And you can read it out.

But if you are also in big trouble or medium trouble or little little trouble little pickle go to if I speak at NavarroMedia.com that is if I speak at NavarroMedia.com. Alright so this was a reader comment and pickle. There is a pickle. There is a pickle. There is a pickle sorry not reader listener. I've cut it down a bit So we because they they she gave us push to editorialize Great So 30 year old trans women here and during my early transition your podcast has been immensely helpful for me Allowing me to tune into two women putting the world to rights and discussing topics that I've had to do a lot of soul-searching On particularly the episode around conflicting feelings on femininity. See, I told you that was a good one. It's been a great support, partly because of that, it's fair to say, there's probably

aspects of a parasocial relationship due to this podcast, but also your own individual journalistic endeavors. My dilemma is I found myself in the last two weeks actively not wanting to listen to this podcast. In the time since the Supreme Court gave its ruling on the definition of a woman being strictly biological, my mental state has really gone to shit, as you can likely imagine. I find myself wanting to talk about this issue all the time, it's at the front of my brain constantly, and all I can think about is how precarious my current healthcare arrangements are, will my HRT be suddenly withdrawn etc. As you hear about happening anecdotally more and more these days. Part of the problem I'm writing to you about is the struggle to manage the dissonance and loneliness

I feel when key people in my life don't seem to care about the news and the vibe shift this ruling has brought about for me, either through not bothering to reach out or when I do raise it with them being vaguely dismissive or automatically optimistic, assuming with no real justification that my worst fears won't come to pass. The result is that when it's not been raised, I feel extremely reluctant to be the one to bring it up as I know these people are politically engaged and will definitely be aware of it. So instead I'm withdrawing from key support networks which usually nourish and sustain me. Coming back to your podcast and my parasocial relationship with yourselves, I find I'm

trying to fill that gap with what my faves on social media think and the takes and shows of support they've put out. I want to completely acknowledge this is not a healthy or proportionate thing to find yourself doing. Looking back, I realise this stems from the difference between this being an issue that is all consuming for me as a trans person and this being one of many grave problems going on in the world right now for anyone else. I know this because I'm the same with other issues.

I of course know that what is going on in Gaza is infinitely worse and more horrible to comprehend than what a court in the UK said about my bathroom access. But I have been able to experience moments of happiness in my life over the last two years in which the genocide has been ongoing and haven't felt close to feeling the fear this ruling has caused me, because I understand that this hits me personally in a way that it doesn't for most commentators. In short, how do you interact with the people around you when the issue that is burning at the center of your world is at best just another box to tick in the bingo card of competing crises and at worst something they couldn't seem to care less about? I don't just

only want to ever listen to podcasts or have friendships purely with trans women who are as scared as me. That feels like closing myself off to so many people and a recipe for disaster. And just to add, because I remember reading the log version of this, I think that was definitely an expression of disappointment at the kind of coverage that I had done on this issue, which I think is important context.

So yeah, Moira, do you wanna begin? Yeah, also I should say that this, I will reveal at the end a nice exchange that I had with this special one. Oh, I would love to stick it in the Slack channel. Stick it to yourself. But she sent this in before our episode came out so that's another thing as well. We do record, our recording schedule is like, means that sometimes we can be one week

behind sometimes we'll be two weeks behind so often there'll be occasionally events where we might be a couple weeks behind. However in general I think it's this is a really pertinent issue and something that I've been in big discussion with my friends about the last couple of weeks because as one of my friends who's directly impacted by the ruling but also the way that government apparatus or other the quangos like the EHRC yeah yeah so bad the same rights yeah but it's so bad that they have the same, it's so bad that they have like the same thing almost as the ECHR. But the interpretation that they have chosen to take, because Baroness Faulkner and a lot of the other commissioners were appointed during the Tory government. And notoriously, just very hardline, very transphobic, I would say. I mean, look, this is what like, just like, but in, but this is what the EHRC is.

Yeah. Like, its job, its job, like, fundamentally is to be stacked with people who can inhibit causes in favor of equality. And because it's still got this reputation from when it was basically a Blairite quango, it's like, it's like oh okay well you are the arbiter that Islamophobia in the Tory party isn't a problem or that this is how the Supreme Court judgment should be interpreted because it's got that reputation but what its political function is is very different and it annoys me so much when it's like, hashlock are you a brown woman you must love the EHRC why are you not

backing them when they say, rararara? And it's like, well, because I've got a fucking brain cell. That's why. So I've got Trevor Phillips and Baroness Faulkner are just two of the notorious names you've run through that. Anyway, so Faulkner is in charge of this long history of transphobia and transhostility. Now is absolutely an element along with a lot of other commissioners who are just really reveling in the fact that they get to hand down the most draconian interpretation of this ruling possible. We talked about this before completely in the report. Anyway, anyway, going going back to the point, obviously, we've, I've spoken about this a lot to friends. And one

of my friends said the way that she was feeling about this, and she's given me permission to share the tenants of this conversation, is psychologically segregated from, especially from cis people. She's like, I feel completely psychologically segregated. She is feeling a lot of instinct to blame a lot of cis people as well for not doing enough, for not listening enough to the warnings. It's not up to me to say whether that's fair or not. These are just, I'm just describing the feelings that are going on and the feeling of like, you will never understand exactly what it's like. And I think this, this special one kind of puts their finger on the issue here,

which is there's always going to be something where no one else is going to understand what it's like except someone who's from the exact same identity category and background as you who's being impacted this much. The question is, how do we stand in solidarity and actually make it so, you know, as a cis person that I'm doing material things to help rather than just words? Because another thing my friend said was like, there's not much you can say right now that will help like actually. Yeah, like this, there's material things like using the platform doing this and that. And I was trying to discuss things about, you know, what I could do. And I was like, should I be, should I be with my with my club night? Like, should I be making more emphasis that this is

like an inclusive space? Should I mention the toys? And she was like, I actually think it's so crass to mention the toys all the time. It just puts the focus exactly where they want it. And it was a really uncomfortable conversation, to be honest. Like it wasn't a fun conversation. I felt like I was saying the wrong thing a lot of the time. I felt like I was misstepping. I felt like I knew that she was angry with me and angry with a lot of other people, but that's also a natural reaction to this. I think it's kind of like fair when your rights are being stripped from you, you are being segregated psychologically. You're also, they're trying to forcibly segregate people in society.

Like, what other reactions is there to have? And the question that this listener is asking is how can she, like, move past that at some point to make sure that she's not cutting herself off from everyone. And that's the question that I'm still grappling with. And I think lots of people are still grappling with because this is still fresh as fuck. It's still also in a period of complete uncertainty. So it's like what challenges are going to be put in place?

What legal challenges? What should we be doing? Who's organizing? Everyone's looking around going, who's organizing? Who's organizing? And it's come at a time when the left historically very weak, even though there should not be a political spectrum issue like that, often the onus is on like, you're on the left, you should be organising. And that's, we're in complete disarray. We've been routed. So a lot of trans people like, why are we having to do this again, when we're already like, not listened to, marginalized to all hell by this judgment, particularly. And now we're

having to think about, we're literally thinking about just protection of the self, like different passports, whether whether like they should relocate, whether they need to like stock up on hormones now, if you're going through a medical transition, before that that care is taken away. I've got people around me who are making big decisions about things like, you know, moving, medical stuff that they wouldn't have made if it wasn't for this judgment threatening that in a few years, perhaps,

if it keeps going this way, it's likely that access to medical pathways will be taken away. The ability to travel freely under the medical pathways will be taken away. The ability to travel freely under the correct gender will be taken away. It's just happened in America. All these things are very legitimate fears. I kind of wanted to say them because it's so people can hear them and understand the depths of what's happening. I think when something this terrifying happens, when it isn't directly happening to you, there is that slight remove.

Like there's always gonna be that slight remove. How do we overcome it? Can we overcome it? And if we can't overcome it, how can you stand in solidarity with someone the way that perhaps we have with Palestine? But even there, there's like, there's been a fading of consciousness.

Like I've noticed that. I've noticed it myself. How do we keep up the momentum? How do we protect people? How do we create something robust? The only way is through a political movement, but where the fuck are they? I don't have a clear answer.

I just, it's something I'm still really struggling with. Yeah. I think to start from the point of, is this always gonna be something that if you're not trans, no matter what your intentions are, you're going to experience it out of remove. The answer is yes. The answer is yes. And that's not a mark of callousness. It's just you can never fully inhabit the experience of another. There is going to be a deeply imperfect act of translation and empathy in that form of connection. I mean, I'm Muslim, I'm not Palestinian. I am not Palestinian. I don't know what it is like to be part of a people,

part of a culture that a well-armed state is trying to obliterate from the world. I can try to imagine and there are stories and there are images which call to a universal humanity, just as when you really think about what it means to be a trans person and to have the sword of Damocles hovering over your access to hormone replacement therapy. Like, it's all kinds of things. It's not necessarily like, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Oh, like, I do have to imagine things like that, though. I do. I do have to think, I do have to imagine things like that though. I do. I do have to think, what would it be like if I was dependent on my doctor and the NHS and whatever other bodies agree that I can have access to this thing just so I can live in a way which is livable for me. I know it's not just hormones, I know it's not just toilets, I know it's not just this thing or another thing. But if you're cis, you do have to

consider these things. You do have to consider, well, what if in all these aspects of my life, a barrier could just be erected? Like a barrier could just be put up and so like, you can't do that anymore. Can't have that anymore. Like you cannot cross this threshold anymore. Like I think that's really, that is really important. And part of the reason why I'm saying this is twofold. One is that there is a comparable period of time, which I wonder if it's instructive to learn from, which is during the AIDS crisis, in which homophobic legislation made a comeback. And actually, the freedoms and advances made in the 1970s started going into reverse. And there is something to learn about the kinds of political mobilization that happened in that time, because you have a small minority,

you have a media culture, which is incredibly hostile, which is degrading, which is playing on forms of body horror. And you had forms of organization against it. I wonder if that is a time to revisit politically. And the second thing is that when it comes to, oh, here is just a new barrier that didn't exist before. Is I was Muslim during the war on terror. And I may have been young for a lot of it.

I remember what it was like to go from my cousins just being able, because my cousins would come down from up north to stay with us. And so, you know, kind of like scruffy Asian guys were very proud of the new stubble that they've just grown and they've got their backpacks full of dirty laundry because no way you could bring down clean clothes. And I fucking remember what it was like when, you know, the, the barriers to movement suddenly went, they're up.

They weren't there one day and they were another. The conversation in the media was about indefinite detention, indefinite detention without charge. And the idea that if you were suspected of something that would become your whole reality, right? Like it is not a perfect comparison, but I remember what that was like. And I understand that there may have been some people at the time being like, okay, but when you're emphasizing backpacks and tube stations, you're,

you're putting attention where like it shouldn't be. And it's like, I get that. But that's also maybe the part that like people who aren't Muslim can understand. You walk around with a bag on your back, you know, you've got a teenage cousin with, you know, a new scruffy beard that you're so proud of having grown. Like, you know, it's just, I think that the stories which can facilitate empathy are not perfect. They're not perfect, but they are important.

So we have any, do you have anything else to add? I don't really have anything else to add. Just, this is an incredibly hard time. And I think it's a natural reaction that when you, when something horrible is happening, the stress is initially will be taken out on people closest to you. Oh yeah.

And then- Oh yeah. All people that you feel have, you know, as you've written in this, a parasocial relationship. And what this special one wrote to me, because I replied personally to her. And then she went back and she let me know that as a result of writing her email, she listened to the episode, she said it was actually really good.

And she was just, she said thanks for writing back. But she also said that as a result of writing her email in the first place, she'd then taken that email to some of her friends that she felt hadn't stepped up and they'd had a really good nourishing conversation as a result of that. So even the act of like writing out your frustrations and identifying where they come from means you can then have those conversations within your friendships.

Because the last thing that anyone needs right now when you're going, as you identify a special one, when you're going through something this difficult is that following that inclination or acting on the inclination to distance yourself from the people who are there to support you. And there is always space to talk to people. If you feel they haven't stepped up. Yeah, it feels really unfair that you have to do

that. And sometimes what you're saying might not even be totally fair. But the point is having that conversation because otherwise how can you discuss it? Sharing frustration is a form of connection. Yeah. Like it actually is. And again, like an imperfect parallel, but like I'm in a relationship with a white man. Like I'm in a relationship with a white man who grew up in a very, very white town. And sometimes when it comes to navigating issues, race and racism together, I come across that limit.

I come across that limit to his capacity to understand or inhabit. And that limit has changed. come across that limit to his capacity to understand or inhabit and that limit has changed. It's changed through proximity to me and his understanding has changed but it's not the same. Like it is fundamentally not the same. And actually an important part of our relationship is that when I feel the frustration, I share it with him and I don't take it somewhere apart. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. And on that note, let's wrap this up. Let's wrap up our frustrations for another week. Yeah. Bottle them. Bottle them. Come and see us. 21st of May. We're

very excited to have you come to the karaoke afterwards. That'll be banging. I'm going to be running it like a boot camp. Oh my god, I'm so terrified. Oh, it's going to be good. Okay, right. See you guys. Let's do some connecting. Bye. Bye. Thanks for watching!