If I Speak - 66: I’m right, you’re wrong, end of!

Episode Date: May 27, 2025

Moya has an intrusive thought about our need for certainty and Ash responds with an idea about how the internet has polarised our thinking. Plus, advice for a singleton with avoidant tendencies. Send your dilemmas to [e-mail] Music by Matt Huxley.

Hello! Hi! Did you forget what the word for hello was for a second? No, my brain is sort of short-circuited as I try to think of an unusual new way to greet the listeners if I speak. I think it's a big nasty one where it's like, hello baby, hello baby, hi. That is not in my oeuvre, is that how you say oeuvre, of songs, but then I'm not versed in Prime Grime. Prime Grime. This is, yeah, this is really where the countryside

comes in, like I was, I missed out on the entire grime wave. The only time it got to me was like, Dizzy Rascal tracks, literally years after they'd first dropped. You're like, this boy in the corner album is pretty album. It's really poppin' in 2011. Like wow, this stuff is crazy. But yeah, I didn't get that. And I'm always trying to think of like a new greeting and then it's like, you know what? Nothing's original in this world. It's fine to just say hello to the special ones by saying hello. Who are you? I'm Woyloothi McLean and you are?

I'm Ash Sarker and viewers, well, you're not viewers, which is why you can't see. But what listeners don't know is that me and Chal have dressed as the same man today. So Chal is our shadowy producer, the power behind the throne. And we've just decided to dress as the same person. So how are you dressed though? Describe to listeners. I'm wearing a white shirt with a thick blue pinstripe. It's very nice.

It's a shirt that's from M&S but bought via Vinted a while ago. We're both in our Vinted fits. A fashionista. And I really like it, it makes me feel like quite a wholesome person when I wear it, you know? Just a wholesome kind of guy.

It's a lovely shirt. I'm a big fan of pinstripe shirts. Well, they haven't yet found the right one for me. Also at some point, I mean, we won't talk about this, but M&S's revival, fascinating. I love M&S. I actually like, I'm like M&S Defense League, like here for it. Clothes are good, the sizing makes sense, love.

But that's not an unpopular opinion. What I, like, I'm seeing M&S all over the TikTok feeds. They have successfully revived their clothing brand for a younger generation who consume and they're making clothes. Like there's a dress that my friend bought this for their birthday, like a weekend ago. And I've seen that dress all over my feeds. It is a gorgeous dress.

It looks like a cos dress. I've always liked M&S because I was, my mother is 71 and therefore I was forged in the fires of the M&S cafe. Forged in the fires of M&S. So we went to M&S a lot and I've always bought things from M&S,. Fortune-ifiers of M&S. So we went to M&S a lot, and I've always bought things from M&S, but I have now noticed that the new collections are really getting the youngers going.

Like, fascinating. Well, look, I, as you know, I'm not on TikTok, so I've got no idea. I didn't know that was fashionable. I just like this shirt. Can I ask you some questions? Yes, please, please. Ask me some questions, not about M&S.

Okay, so this isn't the grand tradition of Condé Nast's 73 questions, but ain't nobody got time for that. So question one, and I thought about this at the weekend, and then I got so excited, so I was like, you know what, the princess of playlists will have a good answer. Tell me your top three ultimate Brits abroad bangers. So picture the scene. We're in Iron Nappa, we're in Ibiza, we're in Limassol and it is the kind of song which could maybe generate, you know, an oggy, oggy, oggy, oi, oi, oi. There are gun fingers, there are limbs everywhere. Right, you know what I'm talking about. Got two, one I can't get. Fit But You Know It by The Streets.

Yes. Cause it is literally set, the video I always remember is like set in an Ogi Ogi Ooi Ooi Ooi, my Ion Appa style resort. Holiday by Dizzy Rascal. Which was holiday? Get your passport and your bikini. You need a holiday.

Come see me. I know you're tired of the same old scenery. I could change all of that so easily. Holiday. Holiday. No, I was about to think it down to me then. I can't remember how the chorus goes. It's like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

It's so good. I think it might be another Calvin Harris collaboration. Holiday by Dizzy Ross? Ah, Ash, it's a banger. It might be a bit too pop for you, but it is a banger. Third one. What's an Ogie Ogie Ogie Oyo Oyo holiday song? Oh, what's yours?

This is hard. Okay. So my initial thoughts were number one, temperature by Sean Paul. Oh, five million and forty nattisharties. Like, like honestly, honestly, Brits loved that song so much. I think it's also. And I think it's also got the, tsh, tsh, tsh, tsh bit. People love it, people love it. So Temperature by Sean Paul. See, you've actually really like reminded me of, you know, the existence of Fit But You Know It. So I think that that's got to displace one of them.

So yeah, Fit But You Know It. It's got to. It's got to. And I think, and this might be a rogue one, but it's only because I saw like a room full of young Brits pop off to it quite recently. Clubfoot by Kasabian. The lads love it. Oh yeah. Like, oh God. Yeah. Any thing is when you're doing an ogee ogee ogee ogee oi oi oi oi, like indie bangers go up. I would say the streets kind of straddle, like a Jamie T song. I could probably put Sheila in there.

Mate, mate, mate, Sheila, like, it was my friend's birthday and the DJ played Sheila and it was like everybody who grew up in London, it was like we got Manchurian-candidated, like all of us immediately. Every single fucking word. And so like, obviously, you know, my partner did not grow up in London. And he was like, how did you all, did you all know this?

Oh, we all knew in Herefordshire, sorry. Sheila goes out with her mate Stella, gets pulled all over her seller, cause she says money ain't no bell bell. I'm not gonna do the whole song, but I could, I could. So I think like an indie banger, the choice between like an indie banger or a garage banger for when you're doing an oggy, oggy, oggy, oi, oi, oi.

Heartbroken. Oh, it's either heartbroken or it's the other one that always gets played. What's the other one that always gets played as well? I'll bring you flowers. No, not flowers, even though that would pop off, but that for me is so oversaturated. There's heartbroken, there's one other

in the same vein as Heartbroken, because it's Heartbroken, and there's another one. Baby Cakes? What's it gonna be? What's it gonna be? So what's it gonna be? Baby, it's you. That one.

Yeah, there we go. Those are, I see those two as like two sides of the same Bluetooth flip phone coin, but Heartbroken, you're right. Oh, wait, hang on, hang on. An honorable mention, An honorable mention for... Da da da, da da da, da da da da da da da da. Chelsea Dagger.

Chelsea Dagger by the Fitellis. All of those are definitely... Everyone's like four pina coladas slash lagers in and something primal is coming out. It's like the sweet Caroline of our generation. You know what, I'm gonna make a British Brit support playlist. That's going to be my advice. I actually have a playlist called Feeling Bolshe, which is all like indie tracks, like that kind of vibe, the Jamie T's, the oi, oi, oi, that kind of bit. So I would like to see your playlist. Anyway, that was a great question.

Okay, right, question two. Ice cream or ice lollies? Okay, right, question two. Ice cream or ice lollies? I usually go for ice lollies, but that's because I'm very sick in the head, whereas I actually prefer ice cream. A good gelato, like a raspberry gelato with a scoop of lemon sorbet. That is my-

Oh yeah, because you like tart. I love tart. I remember this about you. You love tart. But you don't like tart. No, I like tart. I like tart a lot. Oh, yeah, I love tart. But you don't like tart. No, I like tart. I like tart a lot. Oh, yeah. I'm wrong.

Tell me yours. What are yours, ice cream or lolly? I prefer an iced lolly for when the weather is hot. When the weather is hot, I want an iced lolly because I just need that juicy, refreshing and something which leans a little bit more sharp rather than too sweet. Perfect.

Like the Del Monte, like fresh orange juice, orange lollies. Del Monte, that's a name I haven't heard in a while. Literally, I haven't heard that name in years. Pretty good. Pretty damn good. And then there are also ones where you can get like mint in it, right? So like a lemon and mint lolly. I've done seen these.

And those are the kind of like random brands that you get at the bottom of some off-license and it's only like one off-license. And you're not gonna find it if you go to another one. You're not gonna find it anywhere else. I would say, I would say. Yeah, ice lolly is my preference. However, I'm gonna never tell you about like the ice cream

that I had, which I've never, I'll never be able to eat again and it was just like by chance I had it. And it was at like a little gelateria next to this bar that we'd been in in Bologna. So it wasn't like one of the big touristy gelaterias where everyone queues. It was just one that happened to be on the same street. We were like, Oh, fancy, I fancy a little ice cream and a sweet treat. Why not? And as a sort of, you know, part of their rotating weekly specials, they had a black sesame one. I think you mentioned this once and you were like, it blew your mind.

It blew my little mind. All right, final question. How do you self soothe? That's a really good question. How do I self-soothe? How do I self-soothe? Some of my techniques I would say is come back to this tomorrow. You don't have to do anything about this right now.

Your feelings on this will change, it will pass. How else do I self-soothe? I just like always have to remember, I'm the only one who can really get myself through something. So, like if something's happening, and if I'm upset and et cetera, I have to remember that no one else can regulate my feelings for me. That doesn't mean I always adhere to that,

but I think ultimately when I'm thinking about things, I've been thinking a lot recently about how, like I'm sure there's resentments there about various people in my life, et cetera, but how I kind of feel settled in like, there's not really much drama going on in my life. Give me time. But I've been thinking about the reasons why for that.

And I think it's Jenny coming down to the old adage that I've said before, no one else can feel it for you, which works for self-soothing. No one else can self-soothe you. You can go to people for support. Feel the brains on your skin. You can go to other people for support.

You can go to other people for even validation at times. But at the end of the day, you are the only one who can internalize the emotions and actually feel them and act them out. Someone else can tell me to the cows come home, you're fine, this is this, this is that, this is the way you can feel about it. Until I internalize that and actually feel it,

that's not gonna go over me. So it's like self-soothing. I'm like, I have the power to regulate my emotions. I am in control and that doesn't mean repressing them. Although sometimes I do. It means allowing myself to feel them and knowing I don't have to act on them. So that's the way I self-soothe. Like you can feel this thing. You don't have to act on it. I think, I think that's probably the mechanism of how to break it down, but I don't, I don't always live up to those standards. Let's just be clear. Mm. Mm.

I feel that there is more to be said on this, but. You're listening to me like, this bitch is repressed. Um. Alas. Oh, let us move on. What have you got to share with the group today? I'm guessing there's quite a link, I think,

for our middle segment, which today is an intrusive thought. This intrusive thought came out of a topic that at the moment is very fresh, but I'm sure by the time this comes out, it isn't so fresh. So I'll keep it brief on the actual like catalyst for this. But I've been thinking about uncertainty. I've been thinking about the role that uncertainty plays in my modern world, in our modern lives. And this started as a little musing on the good-bad framework. So something has to be good, something has to be bad. And how much that dominates the way we frame issues, particularly online. So I made a video the other day about an issue

that's impacting London parks in particular, but also parks all over, but I'm talking about London. And that is summer festivals in London parks. And what I was saying in this video was, recently there's been a court case that tried to stop a series of London festivals happening in a specific South London park. People were very unhappy because the ruling of this court case said that the council were unlawful for allowing these summer festivals to go ahead in the

South London park. The group of local campaigners who were like, this is removing the park from public use for long stretches, were like NIMBY were trying to shut down culture, etc, etc. And I was talking in this video about the complexity of the topic, which I'd seen reduced this framing of like music festival good people who can play bad. And I said, it's not really that that's sort of simple when you actually look at the the economics of it. And the fact that a lot of these festivals are big private equity backed things. The park is being removed for up to 37 days

out of the calendar year, which is 37 days is quite a lot of days in the middle of summer for big swathes of that park to be removed from public access and charging people 65 quid to enter that space. And I put this out there not to be like, we should stop all the festivals, this is totally bad. But just to say there's more complexity in the way this is working than simply these music festivals are this amazing good thing that's on the frontline

of culture when actually a lot of them are owned by private equity companies and are getting the park and an absolute steal and being able to privatize this public space for large amounts of the summer because councils are so cash strapped, they'll just accept the funds. That And I was like, there's more in this than just like good or bad. And even as I said this, I was so careful to be like, this is just complex. I'm not offering like a solution. I'm saying there's more complexity here and we should think about it when we're discussing it. There was like this reaction, obviously, like people had lots of thoughts. It was quite, actually, I thought it was an unpopular take.

It's quite popular, it turned out. But some people who replied, and this happens with everything, this is not unusual, were like, oh, you're saying the festival should be shut down? No, but this is a good thing and this is a bad thing. And I just, once again, was struck by the inability of people to hold complexity in their heads, to hold uncertainty. And this is true of so much discussion,

whether it's on the web or whether it's interpersonal. And I think, first I wanted to talk about the good, bad thing. But then the more I thought about and the more I thought about how much uncertainty and our attempts to get away from uncertainty and build certainty into our lives, I think it's doing a disservice

to the way we talk about stuff and think about stuff, especially on the internet. And I think we struggle with uncertainty so much today, and that affects everything from relationships to say housing. And those things are very precarious, they're very uncertain. But it's funny to me that when it comes to opinions, people hate it so much.

People want certainty about how to respond. They want to know how to think. Even if they want to feel aggrieved or knee-jerk, they don't stop to think about why that is or why they might feel a little bit attacked by a video about say, London Park festivals. That's because you like London Park festivals and you feel like somehow morally shame you for going to them, which I'm not. I'm saying, I love London Park festivals. It's great. I'm just saying let's think about it a bit more. So they had to package their grievance into sort of like certainty and that certainty had to take the form of this person saying this and they're wrong and this is good and this is bad. So yeah, I want to talk a bit about uncertainty and why we find it so hard.

I'm sure it's evolutionary. Do you have any thoughts, initial thoughts and feelings? Oh yeah, I've got loads of thoughts. The first one is that I think your read on the park video situation is a little bit off. Ooh, let's go, let's fucking go. It's spicy, picante. Let's go.

Okay, the reason why is because I think that there is a gap between the points you were making in the video, which were nuanced and were, you know, able to bring in lots of different kinds of thoughts at once. And the presentation and packaging of the video, The first thing people see when they click on it is, you know, you staring down the barrel of, you know, your front cam and some like blocky text at the top saying unpopular opinion, London summer festivals aren't your local pub. So true, Ash. So true.

Right. Continue. It's confronting, right? It is confronting in its presentation. It is confronting. It is confronting. It is confronting in its presentation. And so while there was certainly nuance and detail, I'm not sure uncertainty is quite the word.

I think it's something a little bit more like holding contradiction or bringing together things which don't all neatly fit one kind of argument, which isn't quite uncertainty. While that was in the video, that's not what you primed people to experience within the first few seconds of that video. And I think this goes to the heart of the thing that you're describing, which is the way in which we consume information and consume takes in particular, where what we think about what's about to be said is determined from the first second or even determined a bit before. I want you to like jazz hands for how right you are.

So I think that this was a situation where you primed people to think they were getting something and because of the way in which people have to consume so much information so quickly, and we've talked about this before, categorize it very quickly in a way, it doesn't matter what you say afterwards. And I say this as somebody who works in the same business. I play the same stupid games. I win the same stupid prizes. Um, you know, I will have like an hour and a half discussion about the pitfalls of liberal identity politics, but the thumbnail is woke is over.

I primed people to experience it a certain way. Now, I think that it's not as simple as saying, okay, well, therefore, Moira, what you should have done has been like unpopular opinion. I have complicated thoughts. Maybe you could have, and maybe people's relationship with you, because of who you are and because of the job you do, that's enough to bring people in. I think that the minute you are putting out some kind of take on YouTube or Instagram or TikTok, like you are playing by the rules of the attention economy. So whether it was conscious or not, you go for the thing, which is that bit more confronting and actually which, which has no uncertainty in it whatsoever.

It was a very, very certain provocative take. You got me there. You read me down. Okay. Topics over. Let's go to the next one. Time to go to Mighty Hoopla. Let's go. Time to go to Mighty Hoopla. Also, the reason I'm not going to Hoopla this year, I think,

not that everyone who watched the video is going to listen to this and vice versa, but in it I say that I'm not going to Mighty Hoopla this year and I realized it sounded like I was boycotting it. I'm not even that moral. Like I just didn't like the line up. I should not get to my T-blows ages ago with the line up camera. I went, oh, no, not for me. Like I was in the video. It looks like I'd be like taking a stand.

No, the standard taking is CBA with the line up. I think that's like there's something in here though, which is really interesting and I think is a lot bigger than people like us who have pinned our credit rating to our ability to yap. Great way of putting it. That's the fact that I think we are immersed in this culture of confrontation all the time. We're constantly being confronted by things, but also our tolerance for being contradicted feels very, very low. And we get this a lot with our dilemmas, right? We get this a lot with our dilemmas of people saying, you know,

here's this person in my workplace or my family or my friendship group, and they take positions which I feel to be harmful in some way. And it's not simply that they're going, I disagree with them, what should I do? It's like, this feels intrusive, this feels overwhelming. I feel like I'm being prodded into something. It makes me feel exhausted. And I think that that's something that's interesting because I don't read that as, oh, we've all just become massive wusses and we're bad people. I think it's maybe something about being so saturated with confrontation that it means that your real life tolerance for it is maybe lower than it would have been had you not been completely immersed in this online culture.

Doing thoughts, like sitting here real time thinking about that. Do you know what? It's like I get a physical reaction when people contradict me online. I get a physical reaction of burning rage and a desire to somehow... Salsa picante! of burning rage and a desire to somehow reek vengeance upon them and their families. And I'm trying to think, do I have that in real life? Not to the same degree, no. Often because the people who are contradicting me are people that I respect and like and I have an interpersonal relationship with them. But this thing about the dehumanization, obviously, when you are talking to someone else online and the lack of faith that comes often with the response to the confrontation,

like in the first place, if I say something and I don't perceive it to be confrontation, and then someone responds confrontationally because they're actually perceiving what I'm saying to be confrontational, I'm like, what the fuck is this? How dare you talk to me like that? But they've already thought that I'm talking to them like that. So, and I think this is a, like you point out, this is a register that just exists a lot. Why are we so aggy to each other as strangers? Why are we so aggressive?

I do think this comes into the real world as well, because there's people who talk to me, honestly talk to me like I'm shit on their shoe when they first meet me sometimes now. Not friends, not people who know me, but people who've seen me online or whatever. Talk to me like I am literal dirt on their shoe. Because they already have this preconceived notion of like who I am and how they can speak and the register in which they can speak to me. And it's utterly, I don't know, it's utterly bizarre.

I don't have very like clear thoughts on this yet, maybe because I'm too deep into the weeds of, and it's very raw, recently it's been affecting me way more. Why do you think that is? I don't know, but I literally like, I'd love to know why, I'm sure it's therapy. I think, I don't wanna be like, I have rejection sensitivity disorder or whatever the fuck people call it nowadays.

There's this whole thing where they're like, people with ADHD, you have rejection sensitivities for it. No. I don't care how many times people say this exists. I don't believe that exists. No one likes rejection. Yeah, it's going to be like, who doesn't have rejection sensitivity? No one likes rejection. And maybe some of us are even more attuned to rejection, but nobody likes rejection. I think that's so clear from the way we talk about it, as if rejection is, as you say, like a harm. And I guess confrontation in a lot of ways is a rejection. It's a rejection of a repudiation of self. It's a repudiation of what you're saying.

It's an inability to listen. When I see someone talking about me, I really believe them. This comment that we got recently about me being nasty and rude, really spun me out. Oh, but it's also like, maybe I am nasty and rude. Maybe I'm bringing it on myself. Maybe they mean that you're a nasty girl rather than a nasty girl. No, they just said I was rude and nasty. And it spun me out and I've talked about everyone

because it's a word that has come up repeatedly in relation to me. So I have to believe it soon. I have to believe that I am nasty. There's something going on there. There is a lack of softness around me. Then maybe people are responding to me with a lack of softness and I then am like, but I'm soft. You can't be like that to me. Okay. But now we're somewhere different. Now we're somewhere very, very different. Let's go with the currents. I'm fine with that. No, let's talk about confrontation. We can talk about confrontation. No, no, no, no, no. It's not a fair procession for me. I don't want to just

talk about me because the comment also said I talk about me too much. Okay, fine. Don't listen to the podcast. That's fine. Like that's fine. There are lots of podcasts where people don't talk about themselves. Have you tried In Our Time with Melvin Brack? Melvin talks about himself all the time. He's always like, when I was growing up, we didn't have any of this nonsense. To be fair, I do listen to only the history ones. The history ones. Melvin also is very rude. Oh yeah, no, he interrupts his guests a lot, especially for women, very rude. Melvin.

He's so, he's so rude. Like he's just like, shut up, you've talked too much. Sorry, we're going completely off piece. I realize this is very chaotic. Take us back Ash, take us back. The first thing is I think that thing about existing with a lack of softness is like, look, I really, really feel that.

Like, I mean, yesterday, or was it the day before yesterday, I softness is like, look, I really, really feel that people. I mean, yesterday, or was it the day before yesterday, I saw someone being like, basically that I should be burned alive. And I was like, oh, like, I mean, that's basically the kind of thing which I see most days, right? Deported, burned alive,

using the most racist and dehumanizing language. And then like the Instagram DMs is like full of people like asking for sexual or sexualized images of me, right? And I, you know, I was talking about this with my partner a few weeks ago, and I felt such boiling rage about it. And I was saying to him, I was like, I want to smash this person's face in. Like, I want to like, you know, when the bride looks really fucked up at the beginning of Kill Bill, like I want to do that to somebody's face.

Like I have a violent desire to, because I feel like I've just been absorbing the violent fantasies of so many other people. And it has stimulated within me this like real desire for violence. And he was just like, yes, this is a good feeling. He was like, because this desire for violence is about pushing it out of you.

And he was like, your problem is that you absorb too much of it. And you think that your job is to, and because I do this in so many aspects of my life, including like family and friends and relationships, is that I think that my job is to absorb whatever craziness is going on and to pump out calm and restraint. And so he was like, that this violent response like actually seems kind of healthy. He was like, don't do it.

Don't do it. But like, it feels like a healthy response. So I completely understand what you're saying about how when people talk to you or about you crazy and you go, what the fuck? The gap between my human self and what it is that you're reacting to and the fantasy you have of me in your head is massive.

And then it finds a way in, right? It finds a way in. If they could harness the power of self doubt or self loathing or self blame, like you would have an infinite renewable energy source. Like honestly, scientists get on it. And I think that again, like everybody has this in some way, which is even though on one level they know that

the impressions that other people form of them aren't necessarily based in reality, it's so hard to maintain that. It's so, so hard to maintain that principle. So, you know, I've been feeling, I realized this recently, I was like, oh, I've actually been feeling like mega body dysmorphic recently, like mega, mega body dysmorphic. Don't know if this is a trigger warning or not, but trigger warning, body dysmorphia. And like particularly to do with weight, because like whenever I go on national TV,

people are like, my God, she's so fat, she's gained so much weight, da da da da da. And the thing is, is that like, I don't know. Like I've got no idea, because obviously my weight fluctuates because I'm a human. I don't keep scales in the house like deliberately so that doesn't become an objective fixation.

And the flip side of that is that my sense of my appearance is very much determined by like what feedback I'm getting from other people. Now, because I exist in this like racist and misogynist space, like all I'm getting is like, she's fucking hideous, she's like a war hog, like, you know, her skin looks like shit, she's got a mustache, right, right, right, right, right? Like, like that's, that's what I'm getting. And my brain finds a way to try and let it in. So I don't, we're really far away from contradiction, because actually, I think what we're talking about is the ways in which an image of you exists in someone else's head and how that impacts your sense of self. And it's really fucking difficult.

I don't have an answer for like, this is what you're supposed to do. I think it's just work and I think it's practice and I think it's about cultivating some spaces where one, there are people whose feedback you actually listen to. I mean, there are people whose feedback actually matters to me. And obviously, because they love me, they'd never be like, bitch, you look hideous. But if I was being a knob, or I was being unkind, or I was being thoughtless, or I was being reckless, or I was being self-centred,

or unable to look beyond the parameters of my own experience, they tell me. Like, God knows knows my partner fucking tells me, right? My friends fucking tell me. So I think that's the first thing is that you go, well, actually there's a whole load of opinionating about who I am that I don't really need to listen to because I have these other sources of like really trustworthy feedback about who I am. And they're not people who just like blow smoke up your own ass. I think the second thing is, I've seen people evolve through this or like, you know, heavy social media users that sometimes they do just end up at a place of going like, it doesn't matter. And I think that I've gotten a bit better at that in recent years. It doesn't mean that I

always feel super strong in it, but certainly when people are hovering the sword of Damocles over your reputation and they love to do it, they're like, oh, she's really fucked it now. It's like, it doesn't matter. Like it doesn't matter. You are playing out your story. That's fine. It actually, it actually has nothing to do with me. And then I think the third thing, and again, maybe this is something which could be useful for other people as well, is engage with forms of confronting contradiction like it's sparring rather than fighting. And see if you can find some dynamism or enjoyment in it. And I've done it a few times where like people have like started by talking to me all crazy. And I've responded to the points that they've

made, but just with a lightness. And sometimes that does shift, right? How they then respond to that, like, oh, she's kind of replying and I don't have to like batten down her doors. And then they continue talking to be crazy. I'm like, peace. I'm out. So what I'm going to say, I'm gone. Do you think that we are worse at holding contradiction nowadays than, I don't know, 20 years ago? Do you think there is an inability to hold contradiction? Yes, I think that like, you know, there are lots of studies that have looked at the impact of polarization on people. You know, the ways in which we insulate ourselves from people who aren't like us. And it's because we also have this like massive technological infrastructure,

which is trying to create separate information universes for people to live in. Like I don't think it's our fault. I think it's a reflection of the material conditions that we live in. And I think that it makes us worse at thinking, like genuinely I think it makes us worse at thinking, like genuinely, I think it makes us worse at thinking. So coming back to your point about the video is that what I've realized is that people are looking for what is the left wing, and I'm sure there are right wing versions of

this as well and centrist versions, right? But like, what is the way of responding to this thing that marks me out as part of this as well and centrist versions, right? But like, what is the way of responding to this thing that marks me out as part of this tribe? And I've seen people, and I've done it myself, I've done it myself where I've then said like really stupid things, because actually the thing I'm trying to do is signal my belonging rather than having thought critically about something. And I think that everybody does that. Everybody does that now. And that also when you offer a take, which might not be right, right? You know, nobody has a monopoly on being correct, but is deviating from that tribe, right? People look at that as a form

of treachery and betrayal and the ostracism and the shaming and the kicks in. I've seen that happen a million times, I've experienced it a million times and interestingly it's also something that I've seen happen in offline spaces with people who are less heavy social media users, aren't public figures, aren't professional yappers. So I do think it's a bit of a feature of our time. I don't know, what do you think? I do think it's linked to what we talked about before, which is the lack of ability to think for yourself. And as you say, the need to signal a belonging to a tribe and an inability to think things through

and think about a sort of critical position, think things through and think about a sort of critical position, which might come with no resolution and no like solid answer and just be analysis and that there's no right or wrong. I think there's such a push on having this clear binary, going back to the good evil thing, clear binary villain and clear binary, like, either victim or hero of the story that's being told to you. And I guess everything has become like a story and a moralist play or whatever, like, where there has to be this journey is, and I can back this person and that makes me good for X, Y, Z reasons.

I do think the compulsion to, and I'm sure it's because of fairy tales, we can see that this goes back to X whenever humans start telling stories, but I think the compulsion to force things, I think the compulsion to force things, systems, companies that defy this specific categorization into a good evil binary undermines the kind of thing that I think people want to do in the first place, which is find the resolution or find something that actually works for the majority of people at one time, because they just want this quick, easy answer. And so they can be on the right side of history. But there isn't like a right side in some of these cases, because it's complex and difficult. I find it interesting that you say that because actually, I think that a rigid good evil distinction isn't necessarily our earliest form of storytelling. Obviously, what I know is mostly about the Western tradition and the Western canon, which

starts with Homer, but my understanding of other forms of myth-making and oral tradition has this as well, is that gods are capricious and selfish and jealous and petty, and there are these huge conflicts that they stir up one way or another where there isn't a sense of inherent goodness or purity. I mean, even just thinking about the Iliad, the first emotion, the first affect mentioned in the entire Western canon of storytelling is not about goodness. It's rage. Sing now of the rage of Achilles. But it's also been translated in ways which are fascinating. So there's a modern transliteration of the Iliad, which is, tell me about a complicated man. I was just about to say, Emily Wilson Odyssey Muse, tell me the story of a complicated man. Yeah. That translation slaps. I do not give a

rat ass about people saying that it's not a point. That is such a great translation. Oh my god. Oh, I mean, like if you want like great, great translations, Christopher Logue's War Music, which is about the ad is fucking amazing. So, so, so, so good. So, so good. So, so basically, actually, I think our earlier forms of storytelling are way more complex, are way more morally gray. more complex, are way more morally gray. Um, and a sense that what's powerful isn't purity, you know, that, that power is this like inherently, um, messy, uh, corrupting, corrupted thing, which is neither holy good nor holy evil. Like it's, it's, it's a reflection of our contradictory desires and thoughts and impulses.

And so I actually think that like the good evil distinction of like, here's a character who's wholly good and here's not, it's wholly evil. It's like, it's a newer, a newer position on storytelling. And it's, I think that we do have a desire for grayness and we have a desire for grayness and we have a desire for complexity as much as maybe we have desires for simplicity. It just so happens because we're in this age of like, I'm sorry, like the inshitification of culture.

Um, that our tolerance is being cultivated for one thing and not the other thing. I think you're so right, Ash. I think you're so correct. Oh my God, I love it when you say that. I love it when you say that. Also, when you think about like indigenous myth, the point of those myths are not like, the Earth God was this amazing good person. The Earth God is often like tricky.

The different gods, like you say, are tricky, and they're tricking the hero of the story, and the hero of the story doesn't win because they're morally pure, they win just because they outfox the earth god and there's all these other things involved and often there's transgressions, etc. And I think you are actually so correct. And when I think about the good evil thing, where do I come to? The fucking Bible. The Bible. The old Bible.

The old Bible. And also, the old Bible. And I actually think that our reading of the Bible makes it simple. I mean, like one, a ton of contradictions, right? Turn the other cheek, but also an eye for an eye. Even the really big stuff is inherently contradictory, and that's why there are so many fucking denominations. The journey of God from jealousy and vengeance to salvation and forgiveness, I mean, like, you know, that's a massive one. Jesus, also sassy, sometimes. There's one bit where I think a rich man's like, what do you mean? What do you mean, I can't get to heaven? Jesus is effectively like, did I stutter? Like, did I like Aramaic, motherfucker, do you speak it? Like, you know, I wouldn't say that the Bible is always straightforward.

And also, I mean, the starting principle of the Bible is that we are all enmeshed in sin. There are none of us who are wholly good, you know, and there are also none of us who are wholly evil. We all have the capacity to seek forgiveness and to forgive others. And we are all also steeped in sin. So again, it's more gray. It's more gray. Yeah, I guess I close out this set of musings

in which you've actually contributed far more than me. And I've mostly been like, teach me, give me, you're at the lectern. And you're saying, let me tell you the story of a complicated people's. And I'm like, I'm hearing the message. Closing out what I would also say is just like, all that stuff's way more fucking interesting than what's going on now in various discourses. It's so boring to just be like, this is good. This is bad all the time. It's so boring. It's so closees. It's so boring to just be like, this is good, this is bad all the time. It's so boring, it's so close-minded. Let's get back to the complexity,

because God, that's where you actually have an interesting chat about something, and can connect. Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I think maybe the last thing I'd say is that, like, it's not, I don't think it's wholly our fault. I don't think it's wholly our fault. We've just got this massive system around us,

which is making us dumber and making us more primed for reacting before thinking. And that's trying to create enclosed information universes around us, which separate us from a shared reality. So I think that if you're finding it difficult to, I think, allow for other people to be nuanced, so you're finding it frustrating that you're being closed down in some way, it's not your fault, but I think that we've all got a role in trying to like push against these walls a bit and create just like a bit more breathing room. Okay, let's create some breathing room for a listener in our... Look at that transition, smooth as ice, baby.

In our I'm in big trouble segment. Where can people send their troubles, Ash? You can send your troubles big, medium, small, smedium to if I speak at NavarraMedia.com that's if I speak at NavarraMedia.com. Why don't you? I was gonna say you can read out because I brought the issue to the table. But I feel I did a lot of talking so. No we need more Ash, that comment said we need more Ash. I think that's bullshit. I think that you should read it out. Look, the comment, the comment didn't tell the truth.

Read it out. I'll read it out. Right. Dear Hall of Notes, do we mention Hall of Notes? We must have. Do you like Hall of Notes? Because I quite like Hall of Notes. I'm so perfectly fine with Hall of Notes, although I feel bad for Hall because recently Hall went to Glasgow and did a concert and Hall was like 80 and can't hit any of the notes and Hall didn't sing, sing, You're Making My Dreams Come True and people on the Reddit were not happy. Oh, yeah, because Dreams Come True is a banger, but my favorite is still Rich Girl. You're a rich girl, and you can't do that. And you're not too far, cause you know it don't matter anyway. Shout out to Natalia Kills.

I think we've done that before. I don't know if we have. Shout out to Natalia Kills who covered that and no one remembers who Natalia Kills is, but I do. Dear Hall & Oates, I'm in big trouble. Or more accurately, I've been in a little bit of a pickle for an extended period of time and could do with some advice. Rename the segment. This is our London pubs renaming.

The key issue, I've never been in a relationship, serious or casual and would like to be in one. I'm a 28 year old cis straight guy living in London for reference. Most of my situation comes down to me not trying terribly hard to pursue a relationship historically. I've rarely had crushes throughout my life and the occasions I have they've uniformly been of long time female friends. I've been very, very reticent to possibly jeopardise my friendship with them by asking them out. Going beyond my immediate circle of friends feels tough, even if it's

probably necessary. I'm not really a raving extrovert, I don't drink much and I rarely find clubs that enjoyable, probably because I'm not drunk enough. Moaning of my hobbies are fairly solitary, reading, watching videos, videos running climbing. I basically never messaged someone I know just out of chat. I suspect I can come across as rather aloof at times. I have a fair few avoidant personality behaviors. You and me both babes. Because of the above my approach to dating so far has just been to continue on with my life as usual and blindly hope for somebody to ask me out in a sort of deus ex feminine. I think if you don't write already you should be writing because this is good shit. I know this special one is like this is good shit. You'll be stunned to learn that this hasn't worked out. It really doesn't help that I can be pretty oblivious to other

people at times so even if someone was trying to flirt with me it's a pretty poor chance I'd notice. You're gonna have to answer this Ash, because this is just me. All in all, I'd appreciate any advice about what to do. I've long felt a sense of shame surrounding all this. Out of desperation, I very recently started a dating profile on one of the apps. Is that worth pursuing? Or is there some sort of in-person setting

that would be better for me to meet people? Or should I just go to therapy and become content with being on my own? Answers on a postcard. Special one. Right. Special one. Right. Ash, you're going to have to take the lead because I need the answers too. I'll tell you what I think. I'll tell you what I think, the special one. One is, what a well-written dilemma, just to echo what Moya said. Oh, Lord Jesus, so good.

I think that you should just throw some shit at the wall and see what sticks. Because I think that actually what you need is just contact with people, women, where flirtation and romance is on the cards. So I think do some updating. I'm very skeptical of updating. You all know that I think that they should be banned but I think that actually would just be good for you to be like, oh here's how I feel when I'm flirting. Here's how someone else feels and reads to me when they're flirting. I just think that if you're worried about not

noticing, like being in a space where everyone's there for the same thing is good, there are also, I believe there are apps where you like, basically there's no chatting phase and it's just straight to meeting up for a drink. Maybe that could be good for you. So it's, it's a less alienated and atomized experience for you. The second thing, and Moira, I think you might disagree with me on this one, I think that there are maybe some problems with this sense of, I don't want to ruin the friendship. I think that there is a difference between looking at your friendship network as a kind of potential dating pool and sort of like just like fishing out women at random times from your friendship network, which I obviously think is bad. But also, I don't think there is always a neat distinction between attraction and friendship, right? You know,

magnetism and a desire to be closer is in there. And also friends to lovers is not just a trope, it's also a reality sometimes. So I don't want to give advice that people are going to take out of context and be like, Ash says shag all your friends and objectify any woman you know. Like that's not what I'm saying. Don't worry, people are doing that anyway. They'll do that without you. You can also just, you know, accept that bit if you want. Make it your ringtone. it, make it your ringtone, I don't know. But actually sometimes flirting with a friend or, you know, putting yourself in a slightly more date-like scenario with them, seeing what happens or, you know, a little snog. I just don't think that it's a disaster or the worst thing in the world. And I think that this fear of imperiling friendships can

sometimes be a little bit overblown. What I'm saying is don't be a perv, but, but do explore. I don't think you actually have a fear of imperiling friendships. I do agree with you Ash actually. I don't disagree at all. I don't think you actually have a fear of imperiling friendships. I think you have a fear of either rejection or something else, whatever, you're just very avoidant.

That's my read on this. Game, recognize game. Game, recognize game. Like if you weren't, you would have just asked the friends out because what is also quite clear from your email is that you form affection, romantic affection for people when you have, when you feel safe to. And that means long-term exposure.

That means knowing someone, it's quite clear that from one-off proximity, you don't feel confident enough to talk to someone or you don't feel the drive. I don't have the exact details on this, but what I do know is that clearly the pattern here is, only when you own repeated proximity to someone, do you start developing feelings

once you actually really know them, or at least acknowledge to yourself that you have developed feelings or developed affection for them or something there. That is normal, that's perfectly normal. I do also think it characterizes those who have avoidant tendencies quite a lot because it's like we create a space where we feel safe to do that. And often the spaces where we also feel there's no chance that we'll actually like make a

move and then have to deal with the messiness of a relationship potentially starting or even you know, just getting rejected. Any mess is how I would characterize avoidance. It's avoiding mess. It's avoiding vulnerability. It's avoiding being a bit raw to someone else. That's what it really is. It's not just avoiding relationships. It's literally avoiding anything

that might disrupt your flow and make you feel things that you don't want to feel, which can be hurt and pain, and even like deep caring about someone who might get lost. Like that's the main thing. We fear the loss of someone, we fear abandonment, we fear it's all those different bits, and you can be all kinds of different attachments

mixed up in one, but if avoidance is your main strategy for trying to get rid of pain, like that's often how it will come out. In terms of meeting people, it's hard because I don't have the advice because I don't know how to do that. I've very much accepted that I might be single for the rest of my life.

I probably won't be. I probably won't be. That's also what I've accepted. But I'm saying, I've looked at my life and I've said, if I was single for the rest of my life, it wouldn't be such a bad thing. It wouldn't be such a bad life to lead. That doesn't mean I've looked at my life and I've said if I was single for the rest of my life, it wouldn't be such a bad thing. Like it wouldn't be such a bad life to lead. That doesn't mean I don't get lonely. That doesn't mean I don't

hunger for the touch of another. That doesn't mean I should stop trying or being open to those things. But it's also accepting like, I could be single for the rest of my life. And that would be down to me. That would be down to the things that I am doing. That would be down to a choice that I have made or not made. I don't think it's also a case of like trying hard enough per se, because it's certain types of trying that matter. So I would say get off the dating apps. I don't think they work for people who have avoidant tendencies. I think they actually exacerbate avoidant tendencies because it's easy to have someone who's like a bit far away and,

you know, not really real to you. And you're looking at them as a collection of traits and you can judge them on it, something like that. Like we pick holes in everything. That's, that's an avoidant trait. The finding excuses for why you can't is a big avoidant trait. And I think when you are confronted with a disembodied person who's not attached to attraction, you often won't be able to A, pick up on the people you actually would be attracted to and have things in common with. And B, you'll find reasons for why you can't because there's not much binding you together.

So if you meet someone you go on a date, it's much easier to just be like, let that fizzle out even if you liked them, even if on the date you felt so good about them. You will let that fizzle out, I would say, if you're an avoidant person, if you don't, even if on the day you felt so good about them, you will let that fizzle out, I would say, if you're an avoidant person, if you don't have previous ties to them. I do think it has to be someone in your network. I just have come to believe this. You can yell at me in the comments, I've come to believe this. You have to have previous ties to that person, which means that they're regularly going to be popping up in your sphere. I think that's particularly true for someone who has avoidant tendencies, because in London, they otherwise they'll just fizzle away and you'll

just let it. You'll just let it. There's nothing bringing you back to that person. The only people you break through tend to be people who are massively unboundaried, will take you on a crazy ride. Cuckoo bananas. Cuckoo bananas. I love that phrase of yours. I'm starting integrating it into my like... Literally, cuckoo bananas will break through all of your walls and boundaries because I've said this before, but like, the only people who are willing to look at someone

who has that many walls up and go, yeah, I'll get through that are people who are crazy a fuck. That's not what you say, crazy AF. Like, people who are just literally like, I see your walls, I see the big sign saying fuck off. Or Mehmet the second. Yeah, I see the big sign saying fuck off. Yeah, or Mehmet the second. Yeah, I see the big sign saying fuck off and I'm gonna ignore all those. What kind of people do you think are the ones who are willing to say, I'm gonna ignore all these signals

and keep on going anyway? The sign can't stop me because I can't read. Exactly, they're not the kind of people who are going to restore your faith that you're not gonna be abandoned or that people are gonna create a secure, loving environment for you. I'm really sorry, like no one is coming to save you.

You have to do a little mix of like pushing yourself out there a little bit, a little bit, just like maybe actually, as Ash says, asking out one of the friends that you are scared of. I have a friend who recently, who also has variable tendencies, who saw someone in their friendship circle. And what they said about this situation was overall,

it taught them intimacy again. I'm sure I've said this before, but they said it's like a muscle. Intimacy is like a muscle. And in this space where they had become so entrenched in their avoidance and this person felt very safe to them because they didn't see that it was like a long-term thing, but they were able to like stretch that muscle of intimacy,

of being intimate with another person. They realized just how much it had atrophied. You have to practice intimacy. Like I'm preaching this from a really hypocritical place because right now I'm in my cave. Like I'm deep in my cave. I love being in my cave because it's so safe. I can control everything here. I control my schedule. I love being in my cave because it's so safe. I can control everything here.

I can control my schedule. I get to go to the gym when I want. No one is bothering me emotionally. Like no one is taking that. That's how it feels with someone avoiding tendencies. The inconvenience of other people's emotions and their ability to affect your emotions is like you don't want that.

But it sounds like you are longing for it. So you have to really look at your patterns and what you're doing and start unpicking them and start just practicing those little moves towards any form of intimacy if you actually want this. But you have to want it, otherwise you can just come back in the cave. Come, come, come with me in the cave. Cave, come into the cave. I mean, look, like very, very quickly, just like on this thing about like

asking out a friend, is that like, a friend of mine actually said this, um, years and years ago, and I was like, what a smart fucking guy. He was like the date form colonizes everything, right? Like particularly when it's like two friends, like sitting and having a drink and like, if it's a combination who find that gender attractive, that people look at you like a date, like there are date tropes which come along and it's something which I think about all the time because actually a lot of my friends are guys and so if we like go out for dinner or something like that,

I'm like, oh my God, this just looks like a date and sometimes it can send me spinning a bit. But there's a flip side to that, which is quite nice. So thinking about intimacy being a muscle is that there is something about that indeterminate space which can be quite good for you. Don't hasten to ask out necessarily. You can enjoy that space and you can just sort of

see how you feel and think about what signals you pick up. And I don't know, it doesn't have to be high stakes all the time. I think also part of what can make someone more avoidant is that they feel that in order to move, it's such a big, decisive move to shift, but it's not. These things can be very subtle and very gentle. Do you know how it's subtle and gentle? Yeah. I don't think that's true at all. I always said that there was this video of a massive cruise ship crashing into a pier

in Venice and it's just going, hang, hang. And I sent it to my partner and I was like, this was me chirpsing you. And it worked. And it worked. And it worked. Can't say no to the cruise ship. Wait, what kind of ship was he when he was chirpsing you? A sinking one, sending out an SOS.

I don't think that's true. Come back next week to tell us what the actual ship was. Oh look, I'll have a little think about it. I want the ship. I want the ship of Mr. Sarker. Right. Okay, this has been If I Speak with me more than a plane. Honk!

Honk! Right. And that was Ash Sarker. We will see you next week. Bye! Bye! Bye!