If I Speak - 70: Can you ever change what you want?

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

*We’ve got merch! The If I Speak Baggu is ethically made, comes in two colours and is available now from shop.novaramedia.com. Support the show and send a signal to fellow Special Ones.* In this episode, Moya and Ash talk about what to do with their impossible desires. Plus: Britain’s drinking problems, and and advice for […]

Hello and welcome to, at least on my part, a very grumpy and underslept, if I speak, because there's a plumbing issue in my house, which is making a lot of noise. So I'm coming to you from no sleep and high levels of resentment. But what about you, Moya? Who backed up the loo? That's what we want to know. That's not what happened. It's a pump issue. That's what they always say. That's what he said. I've seen a few pump issues in my time. I'm okay. I don't want to rub it in your face too much that I don't have any pump issues

because I really feel for you. A sleepless night is not the one. I was saying before we started recording that I feel so emotionally dysregulated because of it. I feel like I could cry any minute for zero reason. So are you going to be able to take the rest of the day off once we've done our podcast recording? You should have a sick day. A lack of sleep is a sickness. Yeah, too much work, too much work.

And I know you've got that same disease as me. But before we get into the intrusive thoughts that I have dug out of the ground for you all, I think you may have some questions for me. I do have some questions for you, but I need to go easy because I'm aware of what a lack of sleep does to a person. I don't know, man, push me to the edge. Okay, push me to the edge. Push me to the edge.

I haven't heard that in a long time. Right, question one. Favorite world leader. Who do you have a soft spot for? Oh my god, I can't think of any at the minute. Yeah, I picked the wrong day to do that. I'm going to sound so ignorant because I, I just, my memory has just completely imploded. Did anyone come to mind?

Did anyone pop up? There's the dude, there's the dude who's doing the nationalizations in West Africa. That's good. I've got no idea who you're talking about. And I don't, I've had like seven to eight hours of sleep. So I think the ignorant one out of the two of us is obvious. I think it's pretty clear which one of us ignorant one. I tell you what I really enjoyed. This was I guess a couple of months ago is now and Trump was

introducing his chaos tariffs. And so you had this spokesperson for the Chinese government doing English language interviews like Channel 4. And you know, you'd have like, whoever, like Christian Grimerty or Kathy Newman being like, oh, you know, how bad is this for China? And he was like, we don't care. We don't care. We're a massive country with a growing internal market and really good trading links with the rest of the world. We don't care. We're a massive country with a growing internal market

and really good trading links with the rest of the world. We don't care. And I thought this man, he's providing such good entertainment. So not a world leader, but does that count? No, that definitely counts. He's an envoy. You can have an envoy.

Also, there's not many world leaders who everyone's fans of at this point in time. Right. Second question, much more trivial. What is your summer Holy Grail toiletry product? Oh, I have actually a really good face SPF. It's a beauty powder one, which also works as a primer and it's slightly golden in tone so I don't get the ashy gray mask of death. slightly golden in tone so I don't get the ashy gray mask of death. So I think that's my holy grail. That's the...

Beast pie for listening. That's the sponsorship right there. That was just free advertising that I was giving them just because I feel really strongly about it. Send us some products. Third question. How do you survive when you haven't had enough sleep? What's the method?

I don't know. What's the method? I don't know. I don't know if I will survive. I think maybe, I think the key to surviving with no sleep is be in your 20s, which I very much am not anymore. Like I used to be able to live on no sleep and like do 9am lecture and it was all fine. Whereas now, I feel like, have you ever watched a film called Kingdom of Heaven? No, but it's the one that Orlando Bloom's in. Yeah, Orlando Bloom is the worst

thing about this film, but like everything else is like, it's really, really fun. And there's a king that's dying of leprosy and like towards the end, he's just sort of like wheezing behind a mask. And that's how I feel. I feel like I'm wheezing behind a mask. It is crazy what the 20 year old body can do because I remember being out all night

and then going to my 7 a.m. shift at work. Yeah. What? How did I, how did I do that? Like, if I, I'll go on nights out now, I won't drink, I will get home at a solid 2 a.m. Oh, the next day, absolute veg write-off. It's like the faux hang, I get a faux hangover anyway. It doesn't matter if I have a drunk,

because the sleep deprivation is so much. Hangover's a 90- A solidarity hangover. Yeah. A sympathetic hangover. Well, I'm not a very nice person, so I don't think I'm in solidarity with the other drunk people. But I'm certainly in the trenches with them. And it's it's it makes me realize that part of a hangover is obviously sleep deprivation.

Like that's what maximizes the hangover. Oh, a big old component. It's for me, like the key to avoiding a hangover is so I have this giant bottle of water. Asher's showing us her giant lilac bottle of water. It's the big lad. Often men find it very threatening. I wonder why. Whenever I pull it out of my bag.

I wonder why. I think it's also because it is in a sort of delightful. Oh. And it's also like a sex toy lilac. Yes. Is the color I would describe it as. So the key to avoiding a hangover is I drink loads of this before I sleep

and then I refill it and I keep it by my bed and you have the two paracetamol and then you have this. So then every time you wake up in the night and you're a bit like, you just drink more water. And while you wake up in the morning you might feel a bit tired. You're not gonna feel hangover, sicky, headache-y. Do you line your stomach before bed?

That's my cue. No, I line my stomach before I drink. Yeah, you should definitely do that. Everyone who's not eating before drinking, what are you doing? Like, eat carb-based meal. It fries me no end. I think Britain's attitude to drinking is bordering on the negligent

the way it's made the way we drink. But it's our one remaining export is drunk people to other countries. But if you wish to enjoy your night, right, and you're not there to get blackout, let's just say the average person who might not be drinking to obliteration, like that's not the goal. You need to eat a carb based meal beforehand. Otherwise you are not going to enjoy any of the point of the drinking, which is to get a little loose and have a little fun. You will be blacked out on the floor. Where is the rice?

Where are the chips? Where is the toast? Alternating drinks is the thing I do. Because also a big part of drinking culture is I feel a little bit anxious. And it's not just about the alcohol. It's about like, okay, I go to the bar so I can just sort of like have a little bit of time away.

Yeah, or like do something, or like just need something to do with like my hands and my mouth, like which isn't talking. And it's too early for the other thing. So just alternate with a nice soda water. This is, I mean, maybe one day we'll do an episode. I get so tempted to do a full episode on drinking culture in Britain

and the anxiety that fuels it and the self-loathing, but it might cut too close to the bone because obviously I'm very triggered by problem drinkers nowadays, because, and I don't mean triggers, like these evil people, I mean, like it upsets me so much to see how we use drink as a pain medication, and an anxiety medication, and the more as well that we make standard social interactions and the discomfort and slight awkwardness that comes with them into this pathological anxiety thing where it's like, oh, you felt nervous saying, hi, you've got anxiety.

The more I think people are driven to pick up a drink and just to try and smooth over that ride. So we're creating a nation of sort of like, I wanna say alcoholics, like people say, oh, don't say that one. No, there's a lot of people who are compelled to drink beyond the point that they think is, that beyond the point they want to drink,

and they use it not as a sort of extra in that they can put down, they use it solely as a tool to mitigate anxiety. And that to me is problem drinking. And it upsets me deeply that we have something else to say. I think we should do a whole episode on this because also I do prefer, I much prefer drinking cultures

where you are not having to make a choice between drinking or eating. So it's not just chic to have a little, you know, a Perotivo snack or like, you know, a little bit of tapas or something. It's also fucking good for you. And it also makes people drink slower. I mean, the, the, the other thing about like the way in which our drinking culture works is because there's such a divide between I'm, I'm going for food

or I'm going for a drink is that the pace of service for drink is just a lot quicker. So the cycle of I'm getting a new one is just like really, really accelerated. Whereas if you are having, you know, your bit of manchego or your hilda or something, you know, a little, a chic little salty snack, it slows it down in a way, which is very pleasant. But shall we move on to a very different introduce of thought? Let's go.

Let's go. Wait, wait, wait, wait a minute before we get into the meat and potatoes of this episode. We've got a very exciting announcement. There is a bag. It might not be a Birkin, but it is very special. We've got, I think it's called a Bagu, but I found it impossibly stupid to say,

but it's a bag for your items and it says special one on it. You can get it from the Navara Media Shop where we keep all of our merch and don't worry, it is ethically produced, although I am exploiting Moya right now to hold it up to camera. Moya, can you give us an aesthetic description of the item? It is I? Can't describe the material waterproof waterproof material Comes in a white or red and it says special one on the bag Special one and it's very trendy. I might I'm gonna wear it I said when we got this bag said I would even wear these and that doesn't I don't do that with much merch It's great merch. I'm happy with the merch next up cap I'm working on cap so if you want

your baggoo you can get it from shop.navaramedia.com by buying this item you help keep if I speak alive you keep the lights on and the mics working keep the lights on and the mics working. So, you know what they say, the heart wants what it wants. And my intrusive thought is, well, can you ever consciously change what you want? And so this started out as me thinking about a particular friend of mine who's been single for a really long time and she's killing it in every other aspect of her life. But that desire for romantic connection, it's really powerful. It's really impactful for her. And the advice that she gets from other people falls into camps, which are both equally annoying.

So I'm in annoying camp number one, because when she's telling me about this want of hers is that I'm like, oh, well, just go out and meet people or like go and do this, you know, as if she's not thought about it a million times. The second piece of advice is some version of well, can you just want it less than you do? So that can come in lots of guises. It can be, well, just make your life full and fulfilling or like find love from your friends or cultivate self-love, enjoy your own company.

And I think in various different ways, it's ways of saying, can you want this other thing less than you do? Or can you sort of shift the arrow of your want onto a different target? And that got me thinking because it's not just when you're single, you have to deal with wants which are painful or inconvenient. I mean, mismatched or disruptive or destructive wants are such a big part of why relationships fail or not. That's probably the easiest way to describe all relationship conflict is mismatched wants. And thinking about the context of my own relationship, we've had to manage that sometimes in particular

because he's a much more like freedom and exploration kind of guy and I'm like, I want everything where I can see it within the same postcode. And both of us have shifted a little bit more towards the middle over time. But we've had to, we've had to really work on the fact that when we're both pulling in different directions and we're, we're doing a tug of war. It does damage the relationship and our bond. It becomes adversarial and the space in between us, which is the relationship, becomes tense and resentful and all the rest of it. So this is my question which I throw to you, which is, do you have any experience of dealing with mismatched wants

or destructive wants in yourself? Have you been able to shift what you want? Have you been able to sort of move past things? And just for the point of clarity is that, you know, we could very easily start talking about things like addictions, whatever, and I just, I don't want to. This is about, I want something. It's not a chemical dependency. You know, can you move it along? Prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr I'm doing that noise because I don't think that this is something I'm very good at. I've turned my wants into, I've packaged them down, like the car squashes, right? So things that I want that I can't have,

I feel what I've done instead is I've taken a big crusher and I've crushed them down very neat and tight and I've packed them away somewhere deep in my solar plexus and then I don't look at them for like six months. You put it in the warehouse of things we never look at. Things we don't look at and then sometimes it comes out and the yearning for it is so powerful and so overwhelming it scares me so I then have to crush it down a little tighter. I would say romantic relationship is probably in that category.

Like that's the most obvious one, isn't it? Because that's something I don't have. But I think what's more interesting is thinking about why do we want something? Like I can talk about romantic relationships in a bit, but let's focus first, because you're a friend, right? Why does she want this thing so badly compared to the other places in her life, like what because a want is just filling a void is

filling a void you perceive and often like the when you don't have something you have a fantasy instead. So it's like what role is that fantasy filling in her mind? What does she think it's going to give her that she can't already get that That to me is a want, like, you know, I want a stable living situation. I want that badly and I'm gonna go get it. I'm gonna go get it. But so I don't need to change that want because I can achieve this, I'm not really stressed about it.

When there's something I can't have, like a romantic relationship, when I think about that want, I think it becomes more overriding or more overwhelming or scary because I know to have that, I would need to change a lot about myself. And I would need to do a lot of changing about myself.

And that's why it's out of reach. It's not out of reach because it's not economically possible, it's because there are things about me that I have not economically possible, this is because there are things about me that I have not addressed yet, or I'm not in the right place to address, that would have to change if I was going to have this sort of romantic relationship

that I want. And that's when it becomes, because I think we all have wants, right? We all have different things. I, on a day-to-day basis, I want this thing for my job, I want this thing for like small items to big goals. But there's what you're saying about your friend is that this one has become so much like a cloud that blocks out her son that you're aware of it. And it's the one of the first things you think about when you think about her. Is that accurate? Would you say? Is that accurate, would you say? I think it's a big part of what we talk about. And it's a big part of how she's thinking and feeling about her own life.

I mean, I don't wanna, you know, because she's not here, I don't wanna like drill into a friend too much. And I think that a contrast between the way you're describing the block or the obstacle to a romantic relationship and the way, not just her, but like other friends of mine who are in a similar situation describe it, is that I think you feel a real sense of agency

about the finding someone part. So it's not the finding someone, it's the sort of like willingness and resilience to reckon with yourself. I think something which many other people feel is, oh, it's the finding someone part. So there is this thing which is really outside of my control. And, you know, especially if you're on like the apps or whatever, it's like, oh, I'm sort of like at the mercy of like algorithmic distribution.

Like, I don't know, I don't know when I'm ever going to find someone to connect with. And I know that like, I'm doing it in a context, which is very uphill. And I think that can also, this thing about how do we feel about the thing we want? And how do we feel about ourselves? That's sort of about, well, what neuroses are you bringing with you to the party? that's sort of about, well, what neuroses are you bringing with you to the party? And I think for people who feel maybe a lack of agency or a lack of control or a lack of confidence or, you know, a certain passivity, that's what they're bringing to this feeling of, I want a romantic relationship. And just thinking about like when I had my own,

Just thinking about when I had my own yearning for one, it didn't feel... I felt like I had a real ownership of the fact I wanted it. Especially after I'd made some really bad decisions and I was in a sort of period of going, okay, time to fix up because this is not a great colour on you, is that it actually felt really empowering to be like, I want love. Like, this is the thing I want, because it became really clarifying about what I was going to accept and what I wasn't going to accept.

And so I don't know why. I don't know what is the thing which makes someone feel the block is me and I can't wrestle with the block or the obstacle is other people in my context and I don't have the agency to change that. I don't know what makes the chip cool. I think that kind of goes to the heart of what you're saying about the wants though.

Cause I don't think it's that I've changed like, not to turn your friend, let's say general people, we're using relationships as the example because it's the most obvious one, but it can be anything from like, I want to exercise more. You know, I want to be a person who can run a 10K. That can be a want, right? And something that you feel maybe you don't have the power to do.

And the difference between the people who do that, or at least feel they have some degree of control over, you know, the romantic relationship thing, there's a block of me, it's not just everything else, is I think that they know the want itself might not change, the core desire might not change, but the way you think about it changes everything, because it puts you in a position where you, you actually do have that agency. And that is something I changed. So that's something that I altered. Because for a long time,

and I still obviously do it for laughs. You know, I complain about the market. I don't think the market is amazing, but it's less productive for me as a person to say, well, it's every man out there who's just rubbish. And they will never like, yeah, I have core beliefs. I'm like, they won't recognize my value. But I recognize that's a mad core belief that I've developed from, you know, my childhood and various things have happened to me. That's not reality.

That's a core belief that I hold that I need to unpack. That's one of the things I'm talking about when I say I would need to change this, if I'm going to get in a relationship. And I can't, when did it flip? I think it really came into focus over the last couple of years. So I've been single three years now. I don't think I've, I've not gone on more than two dates with the same person in that time. Actually, that's a lie.

That's a lie, there was one person I did more than two days. But I haven't had any like things, any serious things. And I know that's down to me. But I haven't had any like things, any serious things. And I know that's down to me. And I think at some point along the way, I had to be like, who is the common denominator here? Who's picking these people? Why is it that everybody that I feel most attracted to

is of a certain mold who could never give me a stable relationship. Why are they always leaving the country within two seconds of me meeting them and me knowing about it? Like, I remember, I mentioned this before, but I remember just before I went to Glasgow, I met this guy and I was like,

I feel so attracted to him, like the most I have an age is my friend went, it's cause you're fucking leaving. She was like, wake up bitch. Like do you not think there's a correlation here? And this is a friend as well who said herself, she's like, I'm not always the most perceptive, but even I can see, she's actually very observational, but she doesn't tend to do the analysis in the same way

that I do cod psychology all the time. She was like, even I can see there is a clear correlation between the fact that you are moving and you've suddenly met someone that you're really crazy about. You know that kid who's like, it's so obvious that even my nan can see. My nan can see it. And I think when you get, like I am lucky to be surrounded by friends who give me honest feedback, not cruel feedback, honest feedback. So that's part of it. But it got to a point where it's like,

I also saw the people around me and God forgive me, I'm not saying this in judgment. I'm saying this in like, my own issues meant that when I see people around me who are like, this always happens to me, the passivity, I just thought, I don't want to live like this because it's so it puts them in such a sad place and I see the most You know both women men enbies too, but I see anyone who has that positivity Everyone's included in the the sad Meeting the reality around a moment camera. Do you remember when we Anna was like? Everyone's all jet and she just started listing every gender identity because she got really mixed up. But everyone's included in this sort of like sad sack case.

And I see the most like glittering people reduced their light stim as soon as they get onto this topic because they're like, why isn't it me? Why is it never me? I didn't want to give that power to everyone around me anymore and say, why are you never picking me? I needed to look at myself and be like,

why am I making certain choices? And I might not even have a chance, like I don't even have the agency to unpack that yet because I've decided it's not my priority for whatever reason, I'm not ready to look at it. But being aware of it changes everything. Giving yourself that agency back changes everything. It doesn't change the want,

but it changes the way you frame the want and your agency within that. I think that's the real change. That's the real thing that I could do. I mean, I think just like broadening it out a little bit, like, you know, there's one way of thinking, which is that wanting is the origin of all suffering. And so like the thing that you have to do is,

even if you can never get here, is aspire to an ability to sort of separate yourself from from your wants and to sort of, you know, not have this sense of incompleteness in yourself, which is then, you know, putting you in these cycles of chasing sadness, feelings of passivity, feelings of unfulfillment, so on and so forth. And there's another way of looking at it, which is that our wants are also generative.

That's where drive comes from, is where movement and change comes from, from our journey towards these wants. And I was thinking about the different ways, the different ways in which me and my partner exert power within our relationship, because all relationships have power struggles in them, all of them.

And I think that it's improved our dynamic immeasurably from us being able to have a shared language about, this is what I'm doing and this is what you're doing. And then we live in a shared reality when we know how the other person operates. His is that his emotions can be very, very powerful, really, really powerful. And he really feels them when he's in them. So when he wants something, it's like a huge tempest has rolled in. And for me, I'm so, or my tendency has been to be so out of touch

with what I want. He'll be like, so what do you want? And I'll be like, I don't know. I literally can't put this in language at all, but I'm exerting my power by digging my heels in really, really hard, resisting any change. So my superpower is like obstinance. And like his superpower is the sort of like strength

in which he feels his wants. And like I said, I think it's particularly in the last, you know, couple of years, we've been able to move a little bit more to a midline, which has come from understanding ourselves and each other a bit better. And thinking about how we create space for the other person, like in a way which means that they're sort of, oh, this is what I do

when I feel powerless, that that doesn't kick in, right? So we've come up with some better preventative measures. But it's still something I think about a lot, which is, you know, not only can our wants be conflicting, which I think is normal in a relationship, but how we express our desire for either change or stability or, you know, whatever, that they're so oppositional as well. Can you give me an example of like a want that you've changed or managed to bring closer to one of your partners? Oh yeah, I mean there's sort of loads of them. Let's teach the audience.

Let's give some lessons in relationships. I mean look, there's some stuff which I will never share with the pod just because it's too much someone else's story. But a really big one is the balance between work, responsibility, home and travel exploration experience. I am so scared of missing out on a responsibility and find it really, really, really difficult to go, okay, I'm going to like, either take time off work or like take time out of family,

take time out of my context of responsibility. And for my partner, he's just, he's got this real sense of like, here are all the things that I want to do in my life. So, you know, go traveling in places for a long time and all the rest of it. And we had this crazy tug of war. I mean, I remember this was like maybe four years ago or something. We had this tug of war where he was like,

I want to go traveling for like a substantive amount of time. And I was so, so obstinate. So he'd be like, all right, when might you be able to do this? And I would just like, I would find a way to do like, um, satyagraha, right? Like passive resistance in the conversation where like, he just couldn't get like the dates of my leave out of me because- You didn't want to go. Because I, because I didn't want to go and I felt so threatened

by taking so much time out. And then for him, he was like, okay, well, the storm's gotta come because it's the only way I can make myself heard to you. And we ended up, we did go away together for about five weeks and it was, I think we've learned to travel together a lot better now because we've become, we thought,

when we were in Mexico, we thought that compromise was mathematics, right? So you sort of take 50% of someone's thing and 50% of someone else's thing and you sort of glom it together. No, compromise is an art. And the thing that it requires is really understanding why your partner wants something.

And so then you can prioritize the ones and sort of cobble together the compromise. So I think that we're a lot better at doing that now. But yeah, him trying to get me to leave the country was such a big tug of war was such a big tug of war. Such a big tug of war. How did you change what you wanted, though? Which was to stay in Tottenham and what?

Stay in Tottenham. Is it even end of what? I never wanna leave. How did I change what I want? I think that I didn't, and that's part of why there was actually tension when we were away together. Because both of us felt like,

well, I've given you what you want. And both of us felt like, well, I didn't really get what I want. And there were all these unspoken expectations because we'd both been really bad at articulating why we wanted things a certain way. And so, like, you know, I remember sometimes we'd like, you know, like be in like our like rented hostel room or something, being like, hmm, it changed as the holiday went on.

Like, you know, we got a lot better at navigating that. And so by the time we're in Mexico City, it was actually really like, it was great. But it took a really long time for us to understand where we'd gone wrong, because it was resentment. Do you know what I mean? I think there's this feeling of, I'm not getting what I want, but you are. That is a recipe for resentment.

Yeah, because you can't express it, because technically you're both getting what you want because you haven't discussed, as you say, or identified the underlying things there, which I imagine, you know, in a situation like that, at least ones I've had in the past, what the partner wants is you to have a great time with them doing what they want,

because they're like, I want to share this with someone I love. And maybe if you were, you know, more reluctant to go, whatever, what you want was just, you can't even identify it. Because you're like, well, I wanted to stay at home at this stage in time. But now I'm here, I've arrived, I've done what you wanted. And it's like those two things have an alliance, you have to find the space in the middle.

And I can't think of anyone I've traveled well with who's been my partner, because our wants have been, actually, no, I had beautiful holidays, but there was like a lot of tension at different points. And that was because our wants were very misaligned. And now I love traveling on my own, surprise, surprise. How have you dealt with it in relationships? I'm not just talking about romantic ones, it can be also like family or friends, but when there's like a misalignment of wants,

or you're sort of in this space of resentment filled compromise, like how do you tend to deal with it with someone else? With my closest friends, we now have got so good at communicating. So that isn't really a problem because like if our wants are misaligned, we actually do tell each other

and find a space where we feel really comfortable together. That is the, my closest friendships are the thing that I'm most proud of in my life and most grateful for because like I'm proud of how I've brought myself to them and been willing to like listen and open up to these people in ways that I wouldn't to other people because I would never have learned and grown if I hadn't done that. And I'm so grateful that these people in ways that I wouldn't to other people because I would never have learned and grown if I hadn't done that.

And I'm so grateful that these people in my life because they have given me the space to do that and they're gentle with me. In other friendships, there was recently a situation I would say where we had misaligned wants and it just ended so badly because we didn't have that communication. We didn't have, yeah, it was misaligned wants,

actually more I'm thinking about. Misaligned wants, misaligned expectations, and both of us just got more resentful, more hurt. We compromised, but it wasn't, there was no communication with the compromise. We just did what we heard surface level or perceived the other person to want, what we heard surface level or perceived the other person to want wasn't actually what either of us wanted and it ended just in a big friendship breakup. Yeah, it's been rough. Do you think there's any way back? No, I don't actually think there's a way back.

I think there's civility and it's fine, but the problem was we hadn't laid the groundwork and we thought the groundwork was there when we hadn't actually put the time in and I think It's not that I haven't had like I told I've got conflicts with other friends I've had conflicts with the friends, but I can tell the difference now between when I'm willing To go invest and really fight and I had a concurrent like disagreement someone at the time that this was going on sparked in part by the feelings that had been stirred up

by this big friendship breakup. And with the other one, I was just immediately like, right, we're sorting this, like, tell me what you're actually thinking and feeling, tell me why you've reacted like this. I'll tell you what. And we do like, oh, I love you. This is, this is, this is this, this is this, you know?

Like I can see exactly. This one, I was just like, I'm out because that groundwork wasn't there. And what happened was so jarring, I think, for both of us. I just don't think there's a way back. But that was definitely mislead once and it once again taught me. It's really it really was a kickstart,, the current transitional period I'm in. And it taught me as well what I wanted. Taught me some more wants that I wasn't even aware I had.

You know, like, oh, oh. That is so, I mean, because there's another part to this whole conversation, which is how do you learn what your wants are and what they really are? Like not the ones that you allow yourself to have because either that fits with your sense of self or that fits with what you think

other people expect from you. And for me, like it in particular to do with like, okay, well, what is, like, what is my, what's my desire like when I'm not putting myself in a feedback loop with my partner? I mean, you know, we've lived together, we've been together for seven years and so much of my sense of like, I want to have sex

and I was like really based on like. Cues your game. Yeah, that's the energy that I'm getting from him. And because he was away for six weeks, it was like really, I mean, obviously I missed him like crazy, but it was really great for me going, oh, actually my sexual desires is not just pinned to like what I think he wants.

And like, it was just thinking, like, do you know what I mean? Like a lot of times it was just sort of like thinking about it and like understanding myself like a bit better. And it felt like, I think another part of what can determine a relationship's like failure or not is like, can you bring new things into your relationship without it sort of so dramatically altering the composition of your bond that like it falls apart? So it's a bit like, you've got this pool of water between you, and you need to make sure that it's not stagnant,

but you also can't just like pour a load of like toxic waste into it and expect it to survive. And I think that this was a six-week trip, which for both of us allowed us to bring, you know, like new water, new experiences, new perspectives into our bond and into our relationship. And I don't think we'd have been in a place where we could have agreed to being apart for six weeks had we also not been through like all of the fuckeries together first of like misaligned ones, you know, dysfunctional communication and all the rest of it. Like that was a product of learning. And it, I think it's an important thing. And it's so hard to do, which is how can you give someone you're really locked in with,

it can be a romantic partner, it can be a friend, it could be a family member. How can you give them the space to discover some of their own wants on their own terms and in their own time without it being threatening and destabilizing? Exactly. Like how is it not? So you don't see this as something that eclipses you or something that's in opposition to you. You see this is actually something that will enrich them and therefore enrich the relationship. There's also something you said earlier that I wanted to come back to,

which was this idea of like incompleteness. And I was thinking about the incompleteness and the future. You were talking about the future, you were saying, you know, something that you want to be part of your future. And I was thinking about the difference between the wants that I, or the way I've changed the way I've thinking about my wants and how much I don't have like a fantasy vision of the future. Like my vision of the future is very much what happens happens.

Like I don't know what's happening in five years. I just know that I- If it's nukes, let them fall. If it's nukes, but it's like I don't envision myself with a partner specifically. I don't envision myself in a specific place apart from vaguely London. I don't have an idea of a specific job I'm in.

I just know I've got some vague goals of things that I might wanna do, but I've really released the rigidity of that. And I'm thinking about the people in my life who I think have this great feeling of incompleteness without a certain thing and who are often like prone to fantastical ways of thinking about stuff and their very specific, very detailed ideas of what a certain future will look like. And the more I consider that,

it's like what is the difference between envisioning a future and what's the difference between just living in a fantasy? And I think those have a great impact on the way that you consider your wants and can like what you consider incompleteness, because if you if you think you're incomplete without something. The practical logistical thing is to try and change that, whether it's changing the way you think about it or whether it's like going after it So take the 10k example if you think your life is going to change drastically if you become the sort of person you can run 10k You become the sort of person who ups their cardio vascular fitness

There are people out there who will say okay. I'm gonna get the couch to 5K app and I'm gonna start this process. Recently, I wanted to up my core strength. What did I do? I started doing more core exercises. But there's other people out there who I think, because of perhaps the way their self esteem is or whatever, they like, I know I've been very lucky in life. I've got, you know, everyone's got low self esteem,

everyone's got insecurities, but I think I've really, I've more and more perceived, I'm like, I've grown up in an environment for whatever reason that's given me a core of confidence I can draw on. And I'm aware of that more and more in the way that I think about myself, even though I do have at times debilitatingly low self esteem

when it comes to like men. But it's given me the confidence that I, when I see something that like, I'm incomplete without, or I want this, I will start to usually go and do it. But there's other people out there who I would say, something I learned from, I guess, you know, the narratives we tell about ourselves, all that kind of stuff, therapy, blah, blah, blah.

We hold onto things for a reason. If you think you're incomplete without something, and you are holding onto the paralysis of thinking you can't have that and not going out and not making any action to the change the way you think about it or go after it, there's something in that feeling of incompleteness that you are wedded to.

There is something in that feeling of I'm not enough or I'm not good enough or I can't have this and I just need to sit in the yearning forever that you are wedded to. And I think that's quite a hard pill for people to swallow, but it's like the narratives we like hold about ourselves. I don't know saying like, I'm never picked. If you're holding onto that, that's a reason.

I mean, so I think there's a few things, a few things in there which are really interesting. So one is, I mean, you know, and I always think about this, which is, do you want a relationship or do you want to feel chosen? Because actually they're two wildly different things. Because feeling chosen is, as you said, that's about fantasy.

And it's about a fantasy of completeness and a fantasy of a moment which will sort of overcome and override all of your own feelings of incompleteness and low self-esteem. And you can have a committed relationship and never experience that moment. And I think that that's just, I just think it's really important for anyone to understand

but if they're coming from a position of like, I want love and I want a relationship, is that the reality of that relationship is always gonna be different from the fantasy that's in your head. And I think for the better, it's richer, it's more complex, it's more real, it's more authentic, it pushes you in different ways.

But it's never gonna be the swelling strings. And I think that that's the good thing about it. And I think that that's something which like about it. And I think that that's something which like people need to get their head around is that like feeling chosen, it never happens. It never ever happens. You never feel chosen. You can have a relationship, you'll never feel chosen. The second thing, though, is that there are things which are more dependent on the actions of other people. So obviously, relationships are part of that, right?

And the most common kind of dilemma we get for this show is people saying, I really, really yearn for some kind of connection, and it can be romantic, it can also be in terms of friendships, but they feel incomplete and disconnected, and they feel that they're trying really, really hard to put themselves in spaces where this is likely to happen and it's still not happening.

And so I think that it's, you know, there are limitations to agency. Another example would be having children. You know, we had that wonderful conversation with Renee who made a choice to become a single parent because she was like, I just want this. Like, I just want this for myself. I know it's gonna fulfill me.

And she made lots of choices in order to make that happen, which included financial ones, material ones. I think that it's reasonable for people to feel like, I really want a kid. I don't wanna do it by myself. I don't think that that's an unreasonable thing to want. I think that my mom wanted kids enough that she was like, I'll do it in the hardest situation

because this is how much I want it. I think it's fine for people to say, I want to do it in the context of a relationship and a partnership. And that is really dependent on so many things, right? Like, you know, your own biology, your body clock, you know, them, how they feel, rarararara. Yeah, that one is interesting

because then you're coming up against two opposing ones and one of them is more dominant. So you have, I want kids, I don't want to do it alone. And it's like, that one has over, if you really wanted the children as much, you would find a way to do it alone. And it's like that one has over, if you really wanted the children as much, you would find a way to do it alone. Like I've seen people do it. And I'm not saying that as like a stigma thing.

I'm not saying that as like, shame on you. You don't want this thing enough. It's just like, practically, being like a bit of a manna, logistically, logically, rationally. But it is saying that one want has overrided the other there. But you've got agency. Even if the people in it feel they don't have agency, they have made a choice.

It might not be a choice that satisfies them. It might be a choice that still leaves them feeling like they want something. But they have chosen one want over the other, which is I want a partnership in order to have these children. It's funny, because literally at the weekend, I was back home and I was asking my mum about kids and like, did she want kids when she had kids?

What did she say? Bit late now, love. No, she said, well, I did not want kids. And I said, if you didn't want kids, you wouldn't have had them. And she said, she told me about a time that she only had a child before. And she said, oh, I would have, I had have had the child if I was economically stable.

And that was a choice, right? That was a choice not to have that child at that time. But she wanted it. She just chose, said she didn't want to do it alone when she was economically, not, you know, didn't have that stability. Then when I was a surprise, she kept me because she was like, well, I didn't want, not want kids. You wanted children on some level

more than you didn't want children. There was, it comes down to that choice. It's like, I don't want children so much. Like I would do everything in my power not to have children. If I fell pregnant, A, it would be an immaculate conception. But B, I would have an abortion. I would have an abortion immediately. You think God's gonna let you do that

after he's knocked you up? I don't think God would choose me to carry the next son in there. You know, a lightning strike to the Mari Stopes clinic, like as you approach the sliding door. And I would still find a way because that's how much I don't want children. But I know there's circumstances where people feel

they don't have a choice, and there's definitely circumstances where you feel your choices are reduced. And I've written about this before, where it's like the choices are not all, they don't always feel good. They don't always feel like a choice, but there is always a choice.

It's just like sometimes it's overpowered by other things. Sometimes it feels out of your control, but it is still a choice. And that is a clear distinction I need to make. I think that this is an important thing in, both in terms of, of okay I'm navigating a feeling of wanting or yearning which is very disruptive and also when you're dealing with mismatched wants or misaligned wants like in any kind of relationship romantic or other

is you go well I've chosen this in some way which either means I can make a different choice, or there's something nice about that. Like, you know, the joy of a relationship and the hell of a relationship is the same thing, which is you are a different person to me. Like that is both what's wonderful about it. And it's also the thing which makes you want to throw things out of a window. And it's, it's really did change. I think a lot for both of us when we were able to look at each

other and go, I chose this problem because I chose you. And I chose you knowing who you the fuck you are. Like for worse and for better, a lot of the time worse, but I made this choice and it's you. And it's a reframing, which when I think also helped us get out of the tug of war feeling or, you know, the feeling where he's pulling on the lead and I'm digging my heels in, is that we began to look at it a bit more as well. Your wants come from character traits that I'm incapable of cultivating in myself, and clearly I want them in my life. So I've outsourced them to you. And it just, it brought the temperature down on conflict.

It brought the, you know, it created space in which compromise, which again, art, not mathematics can happen because it's like, okay, well, I'm in this situation as a product of my choices. You're in this situation as a product of my choices. You're in this situation as a product of your choices. So having both been like agentic in like jumping into like this quagmire, like we'll work our way out of it. And then the other thing is sort of, you know,

and I think that there is a difference between feeling like I chose this and self blame. That's the being chosen. That's the being chosen. And it's subtle. It's a subtle difference. I remember, I talk about this a lot as my period of a multi-car pile-up where I've made several bad relationship choices and decisions which were cumulative and left me feeling like really, really low self-esteem and feeling like I was in this really chaotic situation in which I had no agency. And, you know, I've said this before, but the advice of my friend who was like, you really want love and that's great. So you should like hold that and take responsibility for it. And then the second thing was me going, well, this guy treating me

like this. And then, you know, this guy kicking off like this, that's a reflection of choices I made. I chose them. I put myself in situations where I wasn't quote unquote getting chosen or I was getting chosen in the wrong way, which felt overwhelming and dysfunctional. This is a product of choices I'm making. So how can I clip the leash back on myself, you know? Like how can I like bring myself within my own control? And I don't think it was a single moment or single revelation, but just that reframed thinking of like, okay, well, what's in my life is a product of my choices.

Was really helpful. And it was different from self blame. Like it was it was really different from going, well, this is my fault because I'm shit because I'm this person who doesn't deserve and I was like, No, you just, you know, you made some shit choices like every human, you made some choices. That's the being chosen bit that you're talking about. This is you'll never feel if you're waiting to feel chosen, as in, I'm validated by their choice, that's not what you get. But when you say, I've made this choice, they've picked me for this reason, I've picked them for this reason, that's the agency. That's

the difference. In conclusion, I think with the wants, my take is, you may not change exactly what you want, but you need to interrogate why you want it and change your thinking around it if it is debilitating you and making you feel shit. That's my take. I'd say to quote the great E4E, everybody got choices. Everybody got choices. Shall we go on to someone who feels they have choices? Let's see what the dilemma is. I don't know if that segue works. Yes, we've got a choice one. There's a choice dilemma today. It's choice both in the terms of like a cut.

Go for it. But how do people tell us that they're in big trouble, Moira? Well, if you're in big trouble, which is the name of this segment, this wonderful segment, we really need to give you extra kudos for just the if I speak, if I'm in, someone came up with if I'm in big trouble, but Jose Mourinho, one day we should meet him and shake his hand and he'll be like, get off me worms. I think he'd be like, I'm suing you. Yeah, he'd be like, all kinds of copyright infringement. Here's, where's the money? If you're in big trouble, if you have a problem. Imagine if you got him on as a guest though, can you imagine the advice he would give to people? He'd be like, leave, get out, it's shit.

Leave. He'd be like. Jose, Jose if you're listening, we really want you on the pod. I always say his name wrong, sorry Jose, Jose Marino. You're not Jose, you're Portuguese. Jose, Portuguese, not Spanish. Clear delineation.

Anyway, if you're in big trouble, and if you're Jose Jose Jose Jose I'm gonna call it Jose Jose Jose Okay, if you're in big trouble Email if I speak and of our media comm that is if I speak at Navarra media comm We also take feedback which some of which we read out or If you have a response to dilemmas sometimes send them in if they're useful and we will read them out to Dilemma, do you want to read it or should I? I think you should read it.

Cool, I'll read it. Dear Ash slash Moira, love the pod so much. Thank you Moira especially for introducing me to Louise Bashaw novels. Sweetie, I'm so sorry that I introduced you to those because they are pure brain rot. I love them to pieces. Obviously they're like the most misogynistic, any kind of phobic that you can think of novels, but God, they're fun. God, they're fun. God, they're fun. Good God, you have to say it like that. You have to say it like that. Because she's so posh. You sounded very like Jolly Hockey Sticks.

That's because it is that she's Louise Bagshaw. She's Louise Mensch. You know Louise Mensch Yeah, she's she is fucking Jolly Hockey Sticks, but with like a big side of Having sex in some hotel room like everyone in her on of all goes to Oxford and private school It's that part. Anyway They've improved my quality of life. Love that for you. I'm a gay man in my early twenties. My dilemma is, should I stop being friends with straight people? I ask because I've just lost my best friend of four years. She is a heterosexual woman. We were very touchy and affectionate.

That is, until she got a boyfriend. We hung out as a three and got on well. However, about four months into her relationship, she started spending every night at his. Then every photograph of us together was removed from her Instagram. I saw her a few times in the flat during the day, but after pleasantries, she'd either leave to go to his or put headphones on. I think they lived together from that. When I texted to ask if I'd done something wrong she did not reply for three days. Only to say that she would return to the flat on the day our tendency expired deep clean. Okay they did. And we could chat after that. Upon receiving this I

had a mental breakdown. I felt confused, isolated and angry. Lovingly another friend let me stay with her for the remaining few days, though this meant I have not seen my best friend since. I don't know if I've genuinely upset my best friend if this boyfriend is super controlling. Being in the dark is what pushed me over the edge. We have lots of mutual female friends, and she's neither gone cold on them nor explained what, if anything, I've done to her. I'm hypersensitive to this boyfriend having a potential problem with me because it happened with another friend last year whose boyfriend said in front of us

that he did not want me sleeping in the same bedroom as her. Who should I blame? Myself, my best friend or her boyfriend? Should I be worried about this happening again? Funny enough, this hasn't been an issue with any of my queer friends in relationships. Thanks so much, special one.

Right, what do we think? Oh, I mean, okay. The first thing is that I think that you special one have done everything that you can do, which is you've tried to communicate, you've asked for an explanation. One hasn't been forthcoming. I don't think there's much more you can do unless or until your friend is ready to have a conversation. Um, friend breakups can be immensely painful, immensely painful. And I think part of the thing which makes them worse is that with romantic breakups, there's a societally agreed script for it. So you do something, they do something, there is a parting, often some kind of conversation.

Sometimes people have little ritualistic elements to it. The friends come and support you in a particular way. All of these things kick in when you've had a romantic breakup. With a friendship breakup, it's so indeterminate. That lack of a script can often mean that the communication and the certainty between you is completely absent and that's very destabilizing, very, very confusing. Also, the kinds of support and validation that you can get from other people, that doesn't necessarily happen in the same way. It sort of sounds to me, and I'm not, you know, I think that what part of your friendship with this person and possibly a previous best friend as well, is that I think that you were getting a lot of intimacy from each other. That proximity, which may have been either for both of you or

merely for one of you, a sort of substitute romantic relationship. And I know this because I've had these kinds of friendships, both with men and also with other women. I'm heterosexual, so when it's with these other women, there's not a sexual or romantic component, but there is the sense of we're giving each other the love that we, for whatever reason, that we weren't getting from a heterosexual man. I think that it's possible that, you know, getting a boyfriend, your friend has done something which is really common to people in their early 20s, which has disappeared into the relationship and sort of gone, oh, well, you know, this tap of love has turned on. So what use do I have for this other tap of love? You know, there are other possibilities and, you

know, you mentioned this with a previous best friend of the boyfriend being a bit threatened by the proximity and love and tactility with another man. It sort of sounds that if all of you are in your early 20s that everyone's got some growing up to do and I can imagine that for these boyfriends and their partners, part of the maturity that they've got to reach is how do you have a relationship, which has got boundaries and standards and all the rest of it, but doesn't cut you off from the context that you came from. Should you stop being friends with straight people? If there's one thing that I've learned by reaching the grand old age of 33 is that every

demographic of people will find a way to disappoint you. And it might play out in ways which are specific, but I've had very, very close male, like gay male friends who've disappeared into their relationships. I've had female friendships where, with heterosexual women, where they've gotten married and they're having kids, but we're super close and super engaged. I mean, is much more about maturity and emotional regulation and someone's ability to be sort of responsible within their connections. And I think that that's something which will hopefully change with time. But that's not to undermine your experience of pain, like it sounds really painful and really, really shit. And I do hope that your friend one day will come around to giving you an answer because it's horrible being in the dark. But I don't think it's always going to be this way with friendships. Another

thing which will happen is that your ability to find flexibility, and I'm not saying that's the problem here at all, but it is an ability which will also grow. So your ability to accommodate and allow for change within the world of your friends, that will also come with time as well. Everyone gets better at being friends is what I'm trying to say. Moira, what do you think? Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, first of all, I'll say, just because this girl has disappointed you does not mean you should abandon a bond that has been entrenched since time immemorial and That is between a gay man and his hag

Okay The ancient texts were written and they said Every hag needs her word. I can't say So Every hag needs her word, I can't say. Um, so it's, I get what you're doing in this letter. You're very hurt and you're looking for somewhere to apportion blame and even make it a bit structural and blame, like the concept of heterosexual relationships themselves and God knows they can be bad. But like Ash says, people of every walk can disappoint you. And people of every walk can also surprise you,

like the friend who put you up for a few days when you needed them most. You have lots of mutual female friends. I imagine some of them are straight. Have they abandoned you at this point? No, don't let the person who's fucked up sour you on everyone else and the potential beautiful friendships that you have.

And clearly these types of friendships are important to you because you mentioned the hag from last year where the boyfriend saw you as a threat and treated you as such. And I imagine that's probably left some scars already. So I think this betrayal will probably score even deeper. Just from my own experience of friendship breakups, like the one that I experienced recently already. So I think this betrayal will probably score even deeper just for my

own experience of friendship breakups. Like the one that I experienced recently has rocked me and is now impacting the way that I perceive other friendships. I am very paranoid now. The moment I sense a slight shift of energy I'll be like, are you mad at me? Have I done something? As this, you know, and I'll be like no it's fine girl. Like I didn't do that before. It's because I'm still reeling from the way that this friendship ended. And like Ash does,

because there isn't a script for it in the same way, I don't think I allowed myself to mourn it in the same way or like treat it in the same way as a breakup. So my main advice would be to you, treat this as if you have had a romantic breakup, because you need to be kind to yourself and you need to be able to process the emotions the same way, well, if you do it healthily,

that you would a breakup. And you need to be able to go through that thing of, okay, what did I bring to this dynamic? You know, did we M-Nesh? Is it M-Nesh or M-Mesh? M-Nesh. M-Mesh. M-Mesh in ways that perhaps were a bit too codependent

or whatever, because it sounds a little bit like there was a bit of perhaps co-dependence going on here, but also how is this about her and not me? You know, that's what I would do after a breakup. I'd say, what did I bring to this dynamic? What would I do differently in the future? But also, ultimately, the way that she has treated you is about her and her immaturity.

And I get that because when I was younger, my 20s, sometimes I treated my male friends like shit. I'm not saying I didn't ever treat my female friends like shit, but there was one instance in particular I'm too ashamed of to even talk about where I really just like cut a friend off, a guy friend. And I think it can also be sometimes because... I think young women are not taught to talk to men and it's better with gay men, but I think it's also kind of across the board.

I think we're not taught to communicate in the same way that we would with other women. And you learn that as you go, you learn that there's not this sort of like gender essentialist line where it's like, these are people from Mars and I'm from Venus. But I think when you're younger, that's something especially you don't know how to communicate.

And that seems to have come up in the different ways she's communicating with everyone around her. And I think most of what the reason she's not talking to you is guilt. She feels guilty about the way she's treated you. She feels guilty about the way she's disappeared. She doesn't know how to handle it and she doesn't know how to talk about it. And so when you ask her what's wrong, she can't reply to that. I'm going to say something quite rogue here. Ooh, I think I think that you should send one last message and I don't think the message should say, do you want to hang out or do you want to talk about this?

I think it should just say, Hey, I want you to know that, you know, this is how I felt about this. I was very hurt. I don't want to feel guilty. And I totally understand if you can't talk about this now and you're not ready to but I just want you to know where I stand which is this was hurtful if you'd ever be open to chatting about in the future and tell me why I Get it, but I also get that this is about your relationship and I hope that we can be civil etc. And I suggest sending that because I think In this these circumstances

I would probably suggest a friend sends that in a romantic breakup as well, because I think it will bring you at least some agency enclosure, but you have to send it not from a place of, I want answers and you've ruined my life. You have to send it from a place of, I really am processing this and I want you to know

that there's no awkwardness, but it's because of the unsaid stuff that is really, I think, eating you up right now and making you go crazy. Ash? You know, I think you may have found a piece of the puzzle because when you said the, you know, when you said, oh, there's a sort of co-dependence here. And then you talked about, you know, in your early twenties, when you sort of like cut a friend off is that I actually did the did the same thing, which is there were a couple of friendships where we were very, very

close, very, very tactile, like, you know, spent every waking minute sleeping together. Like, it was, you know, a real strong bond, but there was also an unsustainability to it. Like, it felt like that level of closeness also in a way was inhibiting for our growth as people. And when certain circumstances changed, I became incredibly distant and kind of ran in the opposite direction and felt really guilty about it. And now, I'm just having this realization now,

it's because that friendship was so close and so wonderful, but was also too much. You know, there wasn't enough room to like breathe or grow or experience other things. You know, it was codependent and I felt that I couldn't be an independent person, that there were certain needs which were going unmet. But because of a lack of maturity, I couldn't articulate that. And so then I just sort of ran in the other direction and cut someone off. So I'm not saying that that's exactly what's going on here, but it can be a response to codependency in my own experience

that someone runs in the other direction and can't explain why. You know, that just took me like 10 years to get my head around. Yeah. And you probably won't get an explanation from this girl because it doesn't sound like she's mature enough to understand it herself.

She won't until the future. I've been her, I've also been on the other end. What you have to do is focus on processing it and making this not sour or curdle your trust in other people and trust in the hags of the world. We're here for you. As you can tell, I'm employed by the National Association of Hags.

But yeah, that's my ultimate advice, which is I would actually send a text, but I would work on it beforehand. Because I think it is the unsaid stuff that is really going to eat you alive. And I do recommend sometimes a closure text. Sometimes I don't. For you bitches out there who are thinking I'm saying to you, send a closure text. Sometimes I don't. For you bitches out there who are thinking I'm saying to you said the closure text, no. If you're thinking I'm saying it to you, it means I'm not saying it to you. This is not for you, this is for this guy.

It can also be, and this is drawn from a very different experience, which is a romantic breakup, which is, I broke up with someone who was like a very good, like just a great guy, just like a really good person, but I just, I wasn't happy. When I broke up with him, I don't think I fully understood the reasons for it myself. Then we met up to sort of, again, it's a ritual which doesn't seem to exist for friendship breakups, but at the end of a long committed romantic relationship, especially if you

break up on relatively good terms, it's not uncommon to sort of have that final meetup where you just like talk about stuff. And he said, you know, oh, I was feeling really confused, but then I spoke to my mom about it and she said, well, I think Ash just needs to be an independent person. And that's why this has happened.

And when he said that, I experienced it as so generous because he gave me an understanding of myself and I'd been sort of oscillating between guilt and defensiveness. And he sort of slotted this key in and turned the lock and it allowed a different understanding myself to come in. So if there is something like that, you know, where maybe you could have some more insight into the situation than she's able to have, and that's very different from being like, well, I think that you behaved like this because you're fundamentally damaged, right? That's not what we're talking about. But like a sort of empathetic understanding of like, I think that you've behaved in this way, which was really hurtful to me for this reason, which is kind of legit.

That's an incredibly generous thing to do if you're able to do it. Yeah. And it also brings peace to yourself. But see if you can, because again, you guys are in your early 20s, so we get it. We get it. We understand things are not going to be perfect. And things are not perfect for 30, but you have a bit more perspective. I will. I will bring in that old cliche as you get older you do see things in a slightly different light it gets better it gets better much better all the shit that I pulled when in my early 20s I wouldn't pull half of that now I do new shit now new special

special my life crisis yeah well hopefully we'll be documenting all on the podcast this has been if I speak with me Moira McLean and not a hag but a geezer with hag characteristics Ash Sarker. Thank you for listening. Bye! Bye! Thanks for watching!