If I Speak - 71: If I’m so angry then why am I crying?!

Episode Date: July 1, 2025

*We’ve got merch! The If I Speak Baggu bag is ethically made, comes in two colours and is available now from shop.novaramedia.com. Support the show and find fellow Special Ones.* On this episode, Moya presents an intrusive thought from a Special One about why some women struggle to express their anger. Should our ‘outlaw emotions’ […]

Come on then. I don't know what's wrong with my coffee situation at this point in time. I have one normal caffeine coffee, then I go on to tea. I'm always yawning. What's going on? I don't understand. Listeners, if you're not, yeah. She's calling, I'm yawning.

Listeners have any tips on perking myself up? Cause I love mornings. I feel most awake in mornings, but I yawn all the time. How do I get less yawning? Tell me. Are you gonna introduce the show? No, I thought we'd just do rambling and make it all guess.

I thought it would be a fun, absurdist exercise in what is this. This is If I Speak with me, Moiré the McLean, and my wonderful co-host. Oh, we're talking accents now. Well, I try not to do too much of accents because I'll get canceled all hell. Well, I try not to do too much accent because I'll get I'll get cancelled all hell. This is Ash Sarker.

Oh, you're allowed to impersonate the Austrians. Okay, great. They won't mind. Sigmund Freud won't mind. We're in a post-Woke era. Okay, right. Let's get serious. Ash, how do we start every show?

What do you have for me? Oh, well, this time we're starting a little bit differently because we had a reply from one special one to another. So you may remember a couple of episodes ago, there was an I'm in big trouble submission from someone who was worried about the speedy cars in their area. And this is what the other special one had to say. Hi Ash and Moya et al. Love the podcast. You guys have helped me think about how to be better in ways I didn't know I could or should be. This is a quick suggestion for the special mom who was

worried about boy racers in her area. At Acorn, we are a community union as well as a tenants union, and this could be a case taken on by her local branch in the same way as an eviction etc could be. There should be a form on the website where she can write up her experience and we'll get a call back from their regional organiser. We've managed to get similar issues solved here in Norwich via the union or the best of the whole team. We actually also had someone write in saying that they lived in South Manchester too and if that special one wanted to be mum friends then they could because their husband had thought it was them writing and just changing some details.

Oh really? How funny? But I feel like that would be GDPR to just give out info like that. So I can't. Yeah, no, we can't do that. We very much cannot do that. So our traditional way of opening the show

is 73 questions minus 70, AKA three questions. And I've got them for you. Are you ready? Are you prepared? I'm ready. I'm ready. Okay. Question one.

What is your all time favorite romantic comedy? Hmm. Honestly, it's changing as I get older. Used to be 10 Things I Hate About You. I don't know if I have a new one installed yet, but 10 Things I Hate About You was the all-time favourite, because it's so smart, so funny. It's got the com,

as well as the rom. It's got the com. And many fail on the com. Some fail on both the rom and the com, but that one has both in spades. Oh, it's so good, so well put together. Where is that in nowadays? Maybe I should re-watch that. You should. I feel Oh, it's so good. So well put together. Where is that? But nowadays- Maybe I should re-watch that.

You should. I feel like you should. You should watch it for so long. You really should. Something that doesn't get, I think I mentioned it before, but 27 Dresses is a surprisingly good comm. It's got comm in.

And I re-watched it recently. I've never watched it. Oh, it's got comm. It's got quite a lot of comm. I laughed out loud. Something actually that's happening at the moment. So Materialist, that new film by Celine Song, would have been out a couple of weeks.

That's what inspired the question. Everyone's pissed off because it was marketed as a romantic comedy. I could tell a thousand miles off that was a drama. I could smell that that was obviously a drama and also that there's no chemistry between any of the three leads. Obviously, miscast till all hell.

But if it wanted to be a com, it would be a completely different You'd need a completely different cast that is not a romantic comedy cast It is obviously gonna be a romantic drama. Anyway, people are very annoyed about that I could see Pedro Pascal in a romantic comedy comedy He would be a comedy but you need to put him with different people like I've seen Chris Evans in romantic comedies Also the Chris Evans is profile now is completely different. Like he's not a romantic comedy actor. Back in the day, he wasn't even a romantic comedy actor. He's not the right type. You need to put him with someone like

Jenny Slate for him to be in a romantic comedy because she brings all the com. Chris Evans is funny, but he can't, it's not right for romantic comedy. I can't describe it. Dakota Johnson, again, so dry, but this, she was very self-serious. Like it's obvious what it is, but it was marketed so wrong. And I just want to say that it's not a romantic comedy. There are two very old school romantic comedies that I love. Go on. Like super duper old school.

One is, gentlemen prefer blondes. I love it so much. Because Marilyn Monroe's line deliveries like still just kill me. And I think that thing of the way she played dumb but be very in on the joke was super sophisticated and doesn't get enough praise. But also the brunette friend who I think was played by Jane Russell has this great musical number called Is There Anyone Here For Love? Which I adore, I adore. And the second one is even older. It's His Girl Friday.

Oh, never seen either of those. It's got Cary Grant and Rosamund Russell. And it is the archetypical, fast paced witty rep party and the couple at the heart of the romantic comedy are already divorced. And so it's a reunion story where he gets her to realize who she really is and can do that because he knows her so well and so intimately. And he's bringing her back to her professional fulfillment. The thing she wants to be is this, you know, scoop breaking journalist rather than a housewife. So I love it. I love it so much. Obviously that is your number one.

It speaks to all the things that you find interesting. Like this is where, this thing about romantic comedies, right? I think our favorite romantic comedies obviously speak to our deepest romantic fantasies. And yours is like someone who can support you, if I'm overstepping, tell me, but like someone who can support you in achieving professional aims as well as like your personal emotional growth.

I didn't realise that's why I loved it. I think that's why you like it. Whereas I look at 10 Things I Hate, how about you? It's a great film. Sometimes the line delivery, because it's that very 1930s screwball comedy, it can be a little bit, why-ya-ya-da. It can get a bit that, but it's great. All right, second question.

Who are the actors, and you can name three, shall we say, who can make you watch any film or TV show? So you see them cast in something and you are like, I must watch watch I don't think they actually exist Michael B Jordan maybe oddly I find myself willing to watch most Michael B Jordan although I haven't seen any of the Creed maybe so maybe that's bullshit but I went to the I went to see Sinners, but it was it's the mix of Ryan Coogler and Michael B. Jordan. I think yeah, that really got me and also I went to see Black Panther and I watched Black Panther the first one like three

different times in the cinema and then out and I loved Michael B. Jordan. I probably will go watch Michael B. Jordan. I don't even think he's like an amazing person. His old interviews are really funny because he was like so wild and a bit of a dickhead. And then like as he gets, that's why he's so private now because he feels like he let too much out in the early interviews. He's maybe one, but it's really hard for me

to think of others. I'm not sure they're a really, I'm not a huge actor head. It's really hard for me to think of any that I'd go and watch. Oh, Saoirse Ronan. Oh yeah. Saoirse Ronan, if Saoirse Ronan's in something. If you cast Saoirse Ronan,

I know I'm gonna have a good day. I'm gonna watch it. Keira Knightley actually is my third. Really? I've just realized Keira Knightley is my third one of those where it's like if she's in something, I'll go watch it. Apart from Bennett LeBecca, which I've never seen, and what's the other one?

Domino, I also haven't seen Domino. But I need to watch Bennett LeBecca because apparently it's amazing. Keira Knightley for me is a real, puts me off. She's a chin actor, like everything's like this. Oh, I look quite pretty, but I fucking love her. I've loved her since 2005, Prime Prejudice. I loved her in Black Doves.

I thought in Love Actually, she did, you know, I hate the role, but fine, she was fine. Atonement, obviously. Oh, Joe Wright and Keira Knightley's collaboration. The perfect mix of posh lady and director with probably one of the best eyes at the cinematography I've ever come across. Oh, lush.

Well, who are yours? Okay, Mark Rylance. Put him in anything. Put him in anything. I saw him in Jerusalem. And I'm watching it. I got taken to the revival and I'm not a theatre head. Oh my God.

I was like, oh, this is what theatre should be. Good God. Yeah, I'm seeing something special right about now. I was like, this, hairs. Hair's coming up. When I, see, I saw Mark Rylance in Othello and actually his choices for Iago were wild. He played him like Mario the Plumber.

So I just pretend that that didn't happen. And I think about all the other roles that I loved him in. And it was one, I was so glad he got cast in Wolf Hall because as you know, I love Hilary Mantel, so the combination of like favorite actor and like favorite, favorite book that was being adapted. It was in safe hands. But probably beating all of them, it's got to be Cate Blanchett. Of course. Amazing choice. Amazing choice. Yeah, Cate Blanchett. I went to go see Tar with no expectations, with zero expectations for what it was going

to be like and what it was that I might see. And I was just, I came out of the cinema so excited and all a flutter in a way that hadn't felt in ages. All right, final question. For someone going to their very first Glastow, I guess by the time this is out, what's the key to having a nice time? Oh, this is for you.

It's for me. But also for anyone else who's going to a festival this summer. The key to having a nice time. I mean, there's like several tenants that I would add to this, which fall in different categories. So it's like, watch the boarding of the house. Okay, take those bags that you can wean that go hard.

They're like portable, you're running us for women. You just take them, you wee in them, and then it goes hard and you can just put them in the bin. Take those, they will change your life. Not because the toilets are shit. I actually like the glass-soil toilets because I have queued for Mighty Hoopla, et cetera, Day Festival is poor.

These are not poor-to-loose. They build long drops in, people complain about the smell. I don't care, there's no queue. So take LuRure with you. But if you take these little piss bags, then you can a, not have to leave your tent at night, which is amazing. Uh, and B, if you're stuck in long queues at Glastonbury, you can literally, if you're wearing a skirt, just whip them out.

Amazing. Life changing. They've take them, wear a skirt every day. That's why I'd say, um, other one. What's another one? Uh, do a, this is a personal preference of mine. Take a, I'm sure you'll do this anyway, cause you're going with someone who is a long time traveler and seems very like festival adapted,

just from the sense of him. Oh yeah, he doesn't mind being stinky. I really mind being stinky. Okay, I hate being stinky. So take a massive empty bottle of water, fill it up when you're there. Every night you have a smaller mid-sized bottle of water, and that's your main shower and water.

Every night before bed, I would do a bucket shower. I don't like going to, and that way in the morning, you only have to do a small wash. Nighttime, stand in your bikini, whatever time you get back, just shower yourself down, little bit of soap, wash it off. Like, that is the key. Having a shower at night changes everything.

You go, it doesn't matter how late you get back in, just do the little wash because it changes everything when you get up the next day. You feel fresh, ready to go, perfect. Other things, you don't have to take too much food. You take a bit of a couple of snacks because there's so much food on offer. Just take like some snacks for night, morning, whatever.

What are other things? Oh, yeah. Don't feel you have to stay stuck in the southeast corner. Go there at least once for like nightlife, but ever else at night is amazing. There's a whole like background situation going on. Go up to Strummerville. That's up on the hill that just go on a walk on your own at some point, so good. What's another top tip that I have for Glastonbury? My main thing is like the bodily function.

So like get yourself washed and get yourself somewhere that you can pee easily. Because when those things are satisfied, then you'll be a happy little lamb, a happy camper. And also don't worry about camping too close. A happy camper. Are you camping an artist or Are you camping somewhere else? Artists.

Okay, well, it doesn't matter. I always say camp like as far away as possible if you can because the facilities are better. The noise is not as much and it's a nice walk back that you can calm down on every morning. Yeah, also if there's someone who's really oversubscribed, go at least like an hour to two hours early before. And I would plan like one thing a day that you really want to do,

but then leave the rest of it kind of free. Those are my those are my that's my advice. That sounds like great advice, and I will be taking it. But before we get to the meat and potatoes, as all special ones already know, we have a bag for sale. It comes in two colorways red and white white and red and you can get it at shop.navaramedia.com that's shop.navaramedia.com I can't remember if I said this or not because I'm very sleepy but it says

special one on it special one numerical if you want to show you're a special one to the rest of the world, get this bag. I'm working on caps. I say this all the time, I'm working on caps. I'm obsessed with hats, but I don't know if everyone else shares that passion. I like a hat. I love a fucking hat,

and I feel like a little hat with a special one. Let us know what other merch you'd like to see, because we wanna know what you'd actually wanna wear. We'd love to find a way to show special ones that they're special ones, because it's crazy. I've been in journalism for what? How old am I, 30? Since I was 19.

I have never, and I've been much more on screen than I am at the moment, never had so many people come up to me as I do now. And new special ones are everywhere. I'll be at my other job and someone will email me and go, after edits, they'll be like, by the way, I'm a special one. I'll be at my other job and someone will email me and go, after edits I'll be like, by the way I'm a special one. I'll be out and about and someone will come to the event and they'll go, I'm a special one.

Someone whispered it to me on the Tube platform, which was a little bit startling. It was a little bit startling because they sort of came up like here, like just behind me and they're like, I'm a special one. And I was like, what? It's so nice. I was walking down East like Lordship Lane the other day

and just trotting along and some girls who were beautifully dressed, may I say if this was you, chefs kiss on the outfits, went, love the pod, I'm a special one. Oh, there's special ones everywhere. You're never more than 12 feet away from a special one. Wait, Ash, you've gone quiet. You're muted. I muted myself because I live near a nursery and the children are outside playing. So I

muted myself so that you wouldn't be able to hear their screams of joy. Or terror. Their screams of joy. You have an intrusive thought, Rumor has it. Well, this is a collaborative intrusive thought with the special ones. So we had an email from a special one. Thank you special one. I can't say your name because of the GDPR thing we have, but you know who you are. And I'm going to read out the email that inspired this topic. Because we want to give credit to our listeners. This is a collaborative process.

The listener also says that she got mugged while listening to our episode on cultivating optimism, which is very ironic and I feel deserves a free bagu. I don't know how producer Chal or Ash, you feel about that. I think that might deserve a free bagu. I think we should send the free baggy. So listener, I've made an executive decision

if you want a free baggy, either us, or we'll sort that out. Because you got mugged and I think it's our fault. Okay, so this is what the email said. I have a not quite big theory, more a topic that I think would make a great discussion for both of you on an IAS episode. It's basically an examination of anger through a gendered lens, specifically what I see as a

general female emotional impotence to feel and express anger as compared to people socialized as men. For disclosure, I'm a 26 year old cis woman in a straight relationship, a fellow wife guy. I'm fortunate to have lovely men in my life, partner, brother, dad, all are very emotionally available and here lies the issue. At various points I've witnessed men have outbursts or tantrums, not necessarily directed at people, but expressing their frustration with their own feelings

or circumstances in a very visible outward way. For example, throwing items on the floor. What the hell? What the helly What the hell? This infrequent but not uncommon behaviour makes me cringe for its naked childishness. But then a secondary feeling crops up. A sort of jealousy. Why can't I throw a fit at the unfairness of things? Mainly because I don't care to denigrate myself in such an uncouth display. Did I write this?

Maybe. But also because when I feel anger from the big picture of our political leaders taking part in genocide while making poor, disabled and trans lives harder, through to my own situation of prolonged unemployment, brackets thankfully over, it manifests more inwardly, curdling into a sadness. I cry instead of rage. But rage is powerful. A couple of years ago, I read a book by Alva Gottby, London-based academic and organiser, called, they call it Love, The Politics of Emotional Life,

a Marxist feminist account of how emotions hold up capitalism. I recommend. In the chapter Feminist Emotions, Gottby introduced me to the concept Outlaw Emotion, coined by Alison Jagger in 1992. My understanding of these Outlaw Emotions are expressions of feelings that do not conform to social expectations slash roles, often in a very gendered way. Women's anger for instance is not just frowned upon but often weaponized against women, especially racialized women, hence the angry black

woman trope. In talking about this with my friend, she pointed out how by suppressing or repressing anger we also give way to its mutant form, resentment. Anger is of particular political importance. It's a powerful force and can be a key mobilizing political tool. Ultimately, women's inability to express anger, or rather our disciplining to suppress anger, serves patriarchal disciplining to suppress anger, serves patriarchal capitalism and the powers that be. Therefore, it may not only be of personal interest, but a political necessity to honour our anger.

But how do we do this in practice? This really stuck a chord with me. We're back on me now. Erm, because I realised- What about me? What about me? I realised at the moment I've been feeling very raw and resentful and then guilty about the resentment and I suppose as this list points out resentment is an aftershock of

Anger unexpressed. So that's what I want to talk today about today. How do we express anger? Do we express anger and also first of all, what makes you angry? Do you even know? I mean, I'm a real... ...bottler-upper. Mm. And resentment fiend. And in my family, it's not particularly gendered. It's got much more to do with what role you play with regards to other people.

But generally, there's two types of people in my family. There's the... ...resenters, which is, you know, you feel frustrated and unexpressed and bottled up and you've taken on all these tasks that nobody asked you to do. And you've got the volcanoes who have these big emotional eruptions. But after it's moved through them, they often feel a real sense of catharsis and they're like, things are great again. And you're like, what the fuck?

That was the worst day of my life that you just gave me. And so there's a real division between the volcanoes and the bottler uppers, and I'm a bottler upper. And it's been really important, again, this has been something which is a feature of the last couple of years. And it's mostly work that's being done within the context of my relationship is understanding that anger, when you take responsibility for it, is actually a really healthy emotion. And I think I talked myself into

this false binary where I thought, well, my only options were to explode in a way which was completely volatile and unmanaged or be really resentful and curdled and fermenting and getting all weird. And there is a third option, which is you can express your anger, but you don't abdicate your responsibility for your behavior. And for some reason, I just never got taught that that was an option, or actually to be more precise, got taught that that was an impossibility. And so that's been, I mean, it's really funny because this is one way in which me and my partner are really quite similar.

I think both of us have taken on roles where we've been the more calm person to a more volatile party. And so now we'll do a thing where if we can feel ourselves getting a bit resentful and bottled up and weird, we'll be like, should we have a fight? Like, should we have a barney? And we don't actually have one which involves shouting

or raised voices or disrespect, but we just have to create that permission for us to have our conflict out in the open rather than through suppressed psychological warfare. I think that anger with responsibility is one of the most healthy things in the world. I think it's really, really important. I just think it's hard to achieve. I realize I didn't answer your question about what makes me angry. I think that it's hard to achieve. I realised I didn't answer your question about what makes me angry. And I think that that's because I find it quite still difficult to tap into that emotion. I find it difficult to go, okay, what makes me angry in a way which is real and

not just sort of abstract. Easier question. What makes you resentful? Oh, at least as long as my arm. Feeling that I'm taking responsibility when other people aren't. Feeling disrespected, trodden on. Feeling like my needs are unmet. Feeling judged. Especially feeling judged by people who I'm actually judging. Oh yeah, that's a recipe for resentment. Feeling like others are resenting me for things which are outside of my control. And feeling like my peace and my boundaries do not exist to the people around me. I would say that's my list of things that make me feel resentful. How do you separate your feelings of resentment from anger? Because I would say, listen to that list, right, I have a lot of them in common.

And I also say I'm someone who thinks they skip the anger stage and go straight to resentment. But all of these things clearly make us angry. They make us angry. That is anger that we're feeling. I guess it's if we're framing anger as this explosion, like you say, then, because I have a very clear idea in my head of what anger is.

And then I have a clear idea in my head of what resentment is, I think. But the resentment actually maybe is the anger. It's just we're expressing it in a way that isn't societiesly framed as an anger. Like resentment for me as well, when you resent someone, it's just like this lingering ongoing feeling, but that is just anger and expressed.

Like, and because you're not yelling at someone, that doesn't mean you're not angry. I had a romantic partner once who used to claim that they didn't get angry. They were so fucking angry. They were so angry and they've been angry since childhood. But because they didn't shout and they hated shouting, they thought that meant they weren't angry. No, they were very angry. And I understood it. They had good reason to be. I think resentment is like a stink bomb. And that's how I describe it, which is it's still,

because resentment still exerts power on other people. And this is the lie at the heart of resentment, which is those of us who tend towards resentment, we tell ourselves, well, we're actually the more adult party because look at all the ways in which I'm not letting someone else be impacted by it. So I think it's also closely related to martyr complexes, which I feel confident enough to say,

maybe both of us share. I think we've both done martyr complexes. I was gonna say that the next sentence actually. And so resentment is based on this lie, and it's based on the lie of I'm so generous and I'm so regulated that I'm not going to have an impact on other people. But the thing is, is that you are just kind of stinking out a room. You know, it rolls off you like pheromones, like through your body language, the way you hold your face, the pace at which you talk or don't

talk. I mean, it's funny, I think me and my partner are like, we're also quite attuned to one another, but there's no way we can disguise our resentment with one another. And we try and play this game. So sometimes you'll do your open resentment where you're a bit monosyllabic and you're jutting out your jaw. And sometimes we're really resentful, but we're talking like this and we go, is there something wrong? And it's like, no, no, no. Why would you say that? Is there something wrong with you?

Like, it's like, you're speaking like somebody who's in the midst of having their brain shocked. Like, that's why I think there's something wrong. You know, you create this, I think in a way which is quite cruel to other people, right? Like, you are cloaking yourself in this sort of plausible deniability, which only exists for you. It's only plausible to you and it's not plausible to other people. There's a sort of gaslighting about it because you're trying to tell yourself that you're concealing your anger. And maybe it's because I don't know about you, but I'm trying to understand why I can't just express, oh, maybe I can express anger, but I am doing it through the resentment. Even with resentment, it's like you're bottling it up

and you think you're not expressing it. And it's like, why can't I, in some situations, just express that? Why do I find it so hard? And part of it is probably because I know that a lot of it comes from my own choices and actions. And when I'm resenting other people for something, for example, recently I've been feeling resentment about a perceived lack of people

just asking me how I am or checking in on me or caring about my life and how other people find it so easy to just ask for that and share those details and just be like I'm doing this, I want this, I like this, and I resent that they do that and then they don't do the same for me. But that's because I've built a pattern where I don't share that stuff. I've built a pattern where they assume that I will share things when I'm ready and that I don't need to be asked and I don't need to have those questions put to me or that I don't require that. That's my fault and I'm aware of it. So I'm sat here like stewing at myself and stewing at the things that like trigger me on that. But that's not their fault, but I'm still

resentful. So I'm aware that that's my own thing. So it's like, it's not really legitimate for me to feel these things, but I feel them anywhere and I don't know what to do with that feeling. So it just sits there in my gut. But then, but then we've got like another word that needs to like enter the chat, right? So like we started with anger, we found resentment and we found multi-complex shame.

Oh, the shame. Because you're saying, well, I feel the situation in which I'm feeling vulnerable, sad, fragile, distressed is a result of my bad choices. Therefore, I need someone to sort of notice me and come to me because I don't deserve to reach out to other people and intrude on them because I've got something to feel ashamed of which is my choices.

It's the intrusion thing as well isn't it? Because I think that plays a role in not expressing anger, this idea of intrusion. Like you're intruding on other people with your unwieldy emotion and other people find it so easy to intrude on you. I've got people around me who, the moment they're angry, you know, oh, you know. And they also make it so that you have to come to them and ask them about it and do that work for them. But then not necessarily it's the same way back, but that's fine.

People don't always work in the same ways, but that doesn't mean that I don't have resentment around how easy it is for other people to ask for that help. And the other thing I guess was like not, it's not even like I don't think that I'm being better than other people by not expressing my resentments. I think there is something that I'm like, if I express these or talk about these, I have made myself a burden and then you won't want to like be friends with me anymore because it's long.

It's so stupid because the advice you'd give to someone else would be completely different and the narrative that you have in your head is cuckoo bananas because actually that sharing of, you know, the parts about you which are are unmanaged or unmanageable, which are frightened, which are vulnerable, that is often the core of an intimacy, right? And not just talking about romantic relationships,

also talking about friendships. And it's something which I have to remind myself a lot is that actually my friends wanna hear this stuff from me and it brings us closer. Yeah, I'm gonna say something so bad right now though. I wanna hear this stuff and I wanna like be close to people. Sometimes people take up all the fucking oxygen with too much of this is the thing,

this is the number and this is why I feel a burden. Sometimes it is a fucking burden when it's just like one person all the time with the same stuff over and over again. But do you think that's you? But do you think that's you? No, I'm trying not to be me, which is why. No, but this is something, right? And I know this because I'm looking into a mirror right now and I do this all the time, which is I create in my head a person and it can be drawn from reality, like it could be a particular family member

or someone who stresses me out. And I go, well, I don't want to be like them. I don't want to be like them because I experienced them as being so difficult, which means I'm going to just cultivate the opposite neuroses. And that's not healthy. And I think this is the thing about shame and superiority complexes can really exist like hand in hand and in tandem, right? You can feel like an intense sense of shame and you can also feel this sense of superiority to other people. Like you just called it like bad mind, which is there are people in your head who are in your life who become a totem of everything you don't want to be. I guess it's not even that I don't want to be. I think there's probably an envy there about people of certain traits because it's like-

Oh yeah, envy and repulsion again, like these opposite things which are like- They are really comfortable expressing how much they need. They are really good at expressing how much love and support they need. And I can't do that. And that makes me very envious, I think, like, that they feel a right to express that bottomless pit of need. I also have a bottomless

pit of need. But I think if I expressed it, I would find myself rejected. Also, because of the person I am, there's certain people in my life, and this is who is much easier to love and I don't mean I'm unlovable I think I'm lovable and like people care for me but I and we've gone through this on the pod as well like I come off to certain people as like brusque and nasty and like very hard and there's people in my life who are very soft and it doesn't matter who they encounter they will always be treated are very soft and it doesn't matter who they encounter, they will always be treated with softness. And I don't even think that I envy that

because like I love them so much. I'm like, I totally get this. You are so soft and like so, no one can resist being soft to you. Even when they fuck up, everyone treats them with softness. But because of how my choices and what I've cultivated, I haven't given myself the space to be soft

and have that be received as a soft person who needs care. So I think these are two separate things, right? So one is how are other people treated? You don't know that someone is always treated with softness. Like, like, like you don't, you don't know that, right? That's part of it. Oh, they tell me. They are. It's an agreed upon thing. It's also like how you perceive people. There are also maybe other things missing from that, right? And other things missing from that might be respect.

It might be a sense of, oh, you can rely on them to do certain things. I mean, I found myself saying this the other week, which is as a particular centrist, very pro-Israel presenter and their producer wanted me to come on their show to talk about the madeleine, the freedom flotilla. And the producer was like, yeah, we're going to get you on at this time. And then five minutes later, they called me back to be like, oh, we've moved things around. And I knew exactly what happened, which is that this presenter was like Ash Sarka, no

way. Then after I like hung up that call, I like went to my partner and my housemate and I knew exactly what happened, which is that this presenter was like Ash Sarka, no way. Then after I like hung up that call, I like went to my partner and my housemate and I was like, it's so good to be feared. Like I was like, I know it was super fucked up, but I was like, so good to be feared like this. I was like, I know exactly what's happened. This person is like, has anticipated that I'm going to take his head off and he's like, I don't want to, I don't want any part in this. So like, you know, that person that I'm gonna take his head off and he's like, I don't wanna, I don't want any part in this. So like, you know, that person who is always soft, right? And like, and who gets people to treat them in a way which maybe should we say recognizes their softness

and I don't think that's the same as being treated softly. They might not get that feeling where it's like. But do they want that feeling? Maybe, because we all want the things that we don't have. I don't think they do want that feeling. And I think you are romanticizing other people. And I think you are making, I think that you are turning people into totems of things you lack. And I think that there is a story that you're telling here,

which is like not a full appreciation of either your self and what you're capable of doing and changes that you're capable of creating if you are more open with people about anger rather than resentment, you know, fear rather than certainty or whatever else kind of binary. And I think in order to make the story about yourself work, you're telling one about other people, which isn't necessarily true. Potentially, yeah. I mean, yeah, obviously there's a story I tell about myself,

but I recently went to my friends after the whole nasty debacle, and I was like, what do you think of this? And they were like, they don't see what your good traits, but like sometimes you come across as brusque, you know, like, and that's an amazing thing. And for us, we get to see all like the softness and all of this.

And I was like, that's not the answer I wanted to fucking hear. You're saying that I do come off across as a bitch to random people. I wanted to hear I've got a furry belly. And they did say lots of nice things, but all I heard was the bit where they were like, oh, some people just don't get it and don't hear it.

And I'm like, no, what you're saying is I am a bitch. And I've cultivated a bitch persona and now I have to just lie in my bed. I'm angry about that. There you go, I'm angry about that. I'm angry about that, there you go. I'm angry about that. I'm angry about the lack of support I perceived. I'm angry, I'm angry. I'm angry that people can be a dick to me online

and think that it's okay and I'm not a human being. I'm getting upset. Because it's upsetting. There you go, I'm resentful. We're doing therapy on the mic. I'm angry about that. I'm angry about that. I'm angry about people just thinking things and it's my own fault because of the way I present myself.

Like I have to sit in that and realize if I choose to present myself a certain way and I don't change that, then that's how they're gonna like receive me. And I guess I feel a bit powerless because it's like, God, I really am getting upset. I guess I feel it's a bit powerless because it's like, God, I really am getting upset. I guess I feel it's a bit powerless because it's like, oh, that's just me.

I've just got to accept that I am a bit of a cunt. I... Don't cunts deserve love! One, you're not a cunt. Two, you're talking to someone who understands very well that you will be presented with perceptions of yourself, which are ugly, which are at odds with who you would like to be, which feel like arrows. You feel like Saint Sebastian tied to the fucking pole and you're just being filled with all these fucking arrows.

And when I'm listening to you, I'm hearing, I feel really out of control and really powerless. And then your sense of self kicks in and you go, but I'm actually this really agentic person, which means that the situation I'm in, in which I feel powerless, is actually my own creation and I made it happen. Oh no, I feel really powerless and this feels really shit, sense of self kicks in. Oh no, but like this is actually my fault, right?

And I think that something, there is something really good. and this is different from going, I feel out of control. It's going, this thing isn't within my control, right? And the thing about people's perceptions is that, you know, obviously if I went outside now and I like, twatted a child in the head, people would think I was a nasty person, right? That would be, you know, I could see the cause and I can see the effect.

So I don't want to say, oh, you know, everything people think about you has got nothing to do with you, all right? That would be, you know, I could see the cause and I can see the effect. So I don't want to say, oh, you know, everything people think about you has got nothing to do with you. All right, let's be reasonable. Let's be reasonable. However, when you are a human being who is flawed and a work in progress and is, you know, partial, and then your job also is about presenting yourself publicly and again, you know, partial. And then your job also is about presenting yourself publicly. And again, you can only ever do that in a partial way, whether that's in terms of the arguments you make,

the sides of yourself that you present. And we exist in a culture of like hyper criticism. I mean, this happens all the time. And I've now found a way to find it funny, which is, you know, I'll give an interview about something and someone will be like, why didn't she talk about this? What reason did she have for not quoting this professor who I'd never heard of? And it's like, well, well, that's my reason for not quoting that professor. Like I'd never heard of it. And I remember once replying to someone being like, well, the reason I didn't talk about that is

because I didn't know about it. And then they'd be like, well, why didn't you know? And I'm like, that's such a difficult, that's a philosophical question of like, do you know, to what extent am I responsible for things I don't know? And so the thing I'm saying is this, is like, you know, if what you want to do is find space for people to see your softness, you can do that. It's probably not going to be on a podcast, and it's probably not going to be on social media, and nor should it be, right? Nor should it be. There will be people around you, your friends, your family, potential romantic partners down the road once you start dropping the wall down a tiny bit with whom you can be soft and with whom you can experience play, gentleness, care, challenge as a form of love rather than a form of threat,

you'll be able to experience all those things. It's not going to happen within the realm of your job or your public persona. And that's the bit that you have to accept is outside of your control. You made choices to have this job. Having the job is within your control, but some of the things you experience through the job, that is not in your control. And it is okay to be angry about it. It's okay to, even though it's a product of your choices,

it's okay to be angry about it. Like when I get fucking people messaging me for like sexualized photos of myself, I feel angry. And like, I want to like screenshot them and shame them and I want to I want to inflict a kind of humiliation on them for making me feel humiliated by treating me as you know a sexual object and and assuming that they can in some way pay for a sexual service from me when that is not my job you know I feel angry it's a result of choices I've made to be in the public eye I still feel angry about it. Same with racism, same with

misogyny, same with interpretations of my character arguments, which I feel to be unfair. Is that, you know, you can always strive to improve, but that feedback that you're getting is still fundamentally outside of your control. And you have to separate those two things, separate the ways in which you want to be better from the feedback that you're getting from an audience of people who are going to be reacting because they're bringing their own shit to the table. You know, like I've heard you for weeks now talk about this nasty comment and I can see that it's... No, no, no, but I'm not shitting on you about it. I can see that it's really hurt you.

It's because of the friendship breakup, they said the same thing. So it underscored that. I got it from a person who I thought knew me, at least a little bit, even though one of the reasons we broke up was because it turned out we didn't actually know each other at all. That was a reason. And then this comment came in at the worst time. And it was like, oh, 360 degrees to strangers, I'm a nasty bitch, to someone close to me, I'm a nasty bitch to someone close to me. I'm a nasty bitch.

An ex-partner also said it in a very horrible message that they sent to me. And I'm like, wow, that's three. Three's a fucking trend. Also, I'm crying. Exactly what the email said about expressing emotion just turns to tears. Well, I mean, I think that like,

rage is sometimes the clear bright line between you and humiliation, right? And humiliation is always targeting something you feel vulnerable about. Oh, I'm humiliated. And do you think, you know, and rage can sometimes protect you from that feeling, you know? So like resentment is protecting you from the reality of your anger, anger is protecting you from the reality of your humiliation,er is protecting you from the reality of your humiliation, and that's related to your vulnerability. Like bang, bang, bang, bang.

And I think that that's why so often we cry when we feel angry, is because like the journey through the anger is the other side of it is being in touch with your vulnerability. I've got no idea what happened between you and this friend. And that's the beauty of this podcast, is that actually I'm not so in touch with your life that I've formed my own opinions of it. I've got no idea what happened between you and this friend. And that's the beauty of this podcast is that actually I'm not so in touch with your life that I formed my own opinions of it. I've got no idea what happened. I've got no idea who behaved and what stimulated what and whom.

I say I would say there's two bad behaviors on both like equal bad behaviors, I would say. Like and and there'll be things that you can learn from it. There'll be things that you can learn from it. I've learned. But you will always be the villain in other people's stories in your life as well, and including people who are close to you. Again, I think that's just something that we have to learn to accept. I think the problem is that I've, I, what I learned from that is that, because when I take from a situation, what can I learn? Like, how can I change?

I can't control that person. I don't want to portray them as a villain. I don't want to make out that they're like all at fault. And when I say 50%, like I genuinely mean it, it was a 50%. I'd done something that, or like hurt them. And they came to me and talked to me about it,

and they said, oh, you responded really well. Then they did something, and the thing that they did I couldn't deal with. But out of that situation, what I learned was that I'm the villain as well. I'm not just the villain in their story, I'm also the villain in my story. So I think I'm grappling with this idea

of me just being a villain, and I don't just being a villain. And I don't want to be a villain. I think that something that's really helped me, and I think this comes from being in a really committed relationships, is that the minute you get into what I call like a victim perpetrator narrative, either where you perceive yourself as like a villain who's done these awful things to this other person, or the flip side is when you see yourself at the mercy of their villainy, is that it makes it just impossible to solve problems. Like, and in some ways that feeling of I'm a villain is just as paralyzing and just as, um, like

unagentic as the I'm a victim and I'm at their mercy and it takes time. And I think it's really difficult when you're in a, in the crisis moment of it, where you're experiencing it as a crisis, but with a bit of time, you move from villain to human. Yeah. I think now I'm in the, on both sides. I think now I'm in the... On both sides. I think now I'm in the processing and the safe stable place, away from it all.

Now I've got to sit and process it, but it's just very difficult to grapple with because we can't get closure, not yet, for various reasons. I don't know if closure exists, to be honest. By closure I mean like I can't I can't say why but it's for me it's it's not like we have a final meeting we have a final summit all that it's like not yet got the distance properly and the feeling like that chapter is closed for various reasons and when

that happens I think it'll be better. I don't know I say this all I say this constantly which is the magic ingredient is time. Your life changes, what's in your life changes. So what's in their life changes a bit. And through these like additional experiences and the sense of distance from the situation, insight and perception can happen because, you know, what's happening in your body

and your nervous system is different. And also your ability to integrate bits of information that have come from other places are different. We talked about this last week as well, which is how painful friend breakups are, like in particular, like really, really painful. And I think it comes from, even if you go, oh, this crisis, this rupture was brought about through us not really knowing each other, that feeling of, oh, but I was really known by you, even if it wasn't right, even if it wasn't correct, it means that there's just such an incredible capacity to hurt one another, like really, really massive. And especially when, you know, there's a certain code

of wrongs like in romantic relationships where it's like, you know, if you're in a really toxic relationship where you're doing each other wrong, but they cheat on you, it's the best thing, it's the best thing. So you're like, aha, you've done the shit thing and it's all on you in this sort of societally like accepted way that like you're the problem.

Like those codes don't exist quite in the same way thing and it's all on you in this sort of societally accepted way that you're the problem. Those codes don't exist quite in the same way for friendships. It means that the nature of the wound and what is the hurt you're experiencing can sometimes just be really difficult to get your head around and understand. I think coming back to this thing about nastiness and humiliation and anger and how these things are all sitting together is that I don't think anger is the same thing as lashing out. And I think that you can feel that emotion and move through it without necessarily acting on it in a way which is lashing out.

And you can get to this thing which is on the other side. And when it's come to either things that I've been dealing with, you know, on my own terms, like, you know, the impact of like racist and misogynist abuse, but also in terms of navigating conflict with my partner, the thing I've realized is that like, let's imagine like, you know, anger is the river. Like you can't get to the other bank unless you go through it. And you let it go through you. Yeah. I do think shouting for me is like, if someone shouts at me, that's a lashing out, whereas in anger I can deal with, I can torch them.

And when you say like lashing out, it's like the thing that the email writers have said about throwing a fit. That is a tantrum, that is lashing out. That to me is not a useful expression of anger. That is people being socialized to think that they can behave how they want. And that is entitlement. I would say, if yelling at someone, you know, that's not.

Perceiving, you know, and so that's not the same as it existing, but feeling like you perceive someone else's entitlement is so often the core of resentment. Because the flip side to a martyr complex is other people's entitlement. Yes, yes. Okay, shall we do other people's problems? I'm in big trouble. And if you're in big trouble.

And if you're in big trouble, you can send us an email too, if I speak at NavarroMedia.com. Do you want to read out the dilemma? I do. Dear Moya and Ash, I love you both so much. Your work, your humor, your takes, et cetera. Thank you for the pod. It's been a blessing. And just to draw your attention, Moya, did the word nasty appear in that once?

No, it fucking didn't. Listen to the praise as well as like the private email though. That was public review. In short, my best friends are getting turfy. What do I do? I'll give a bit of background. I'm a 30 year old gay man from an extremely religious conservative background. It was hell.

I barely survived, but ultimately lived to tell the tale. At university I met friends that became my whole world and truly saved me from a pit of self-loathing. Think crying in the club, crying in the counselling service. Sorry the way in which you wrote that special one was really funny. Time has moved on and they're still my family. I've created a workable situation with my actual family but I'm still not out, need weeks to recover when I return from home and my friends are always there to build back my dignity and sense of self. Our relationships have grown and

matured at the core but at the core stayed the same. They are intensely beautiful, funny and kind people and we really live our lives together. I'll never be thankful enough for that sense of belonging. However, there are cracks. A few have started to make little comments about the quote-unquote trans debate. This came to a head recently. I got heated and upset, trying to engage with their questions but ultimately being hit with some rough stuff. My closest friend even said that they didn't know if they believed in trans identity period. These are people that were so progressive all the time I've known them. And I really thought we all stood in solidarity

with trans people. What do I do now? I never imagined I'd have this conflict. I'll protect the dolls with my life if it comes to it. But what if the call is coming from inside the house? Hmm. Thoughts and feelings. This is a very difficult one because,

I've said it a thousand times, but when you were trying to stop someone's slide into a sort of radicalized position, it means building more community with them when the instinct is to build less and the instinct is to loudly disagree and stake your position and go 10 toes down, telling them all the ways they're wrong.

And that is a natural reaction when we hear something that is repellent to us or disagrees with our moral compass. But life is not a TV debate show. The difference with like a TV debate, right? And I think that's something that informs the way we think about disagreement is those people on the TV debate are not trying to convince each other, they're convincing an audience.

Different thing. When you're in conversation with your friends, you cannot go at them about something the way that you would go at an opposition on a TV debate because it just doesn't work. And it feels like you are being morally bankrupt if you're not immediately being like, you're so wrong. These are the reasons what you're saying is bigoted.

It's wrong. I get it so much. It feels like a betrayal, particularly if you're defending a cause very close to your heart or the rights of people, which you are in this case, but the long-term outcome What do you want? Would you do you want to drive someone further into a position or do you want to slowly show them Not tell them show them why they're wrong. And if you're the outcome really is

them why they're wrong and if you're the outcome really is interpersonally you want this person that you love to understand why the human rights of other people and the dignity and the right of some other people to live their lives in peace then the strategy has to be different and this is also hard because you know with a lot of time with like groups of people who've been made into boogeymen, as it were, like migrants or whatever, it's often because the person in question doesn't have exposure or interaction. But you can't just be like, let's go meet some trans people because that's offensive to everyone and potentially like exposing people. Like rent a doll. Like you can't. Yeah, like that's so fucking, it's just like such a ghost suggestion. So the thing you have to do is really hard.

You have to stay calm and you have to say why a lot. Why do you think that? And then just occasionally be like, you know, they're saying, I don't believe in that. Like, okay, why? And they'll say blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, no, does that make sense? Or why do you think that?

Why is that useful to hold? Don't you think that, you know, wouldn't you want to live your life as respect? Does it hurt you? Does it impact you? Does this impact your existence? And just be like, well, I think, you know, we should be respecting everyone's right to live

because if this happened and then you give them an example that directly speaks to their own experience I would say. That's how you start and it's called like a keep going down that path. Take some pride as well. I actually think the starting place is somewhere slightly different. Oh Ash go ahead you're good at convincing. I think the starting place special one is first for you to understand yourself because the vibe I'm getting from this, and I could be wrong, is that your experiences of having to survive an extremely religious background where you could not be yourself openly around your family and you still can't, has given you an insight into what it is like when someone is not accepted for their identity. You have experienced

the extreme psychological pain and distress and you said it yourself, you barely survived. You know that this can mean life and death for people. And this has given you insight into the experience of trans people. And when you see trans people under attack in the media, by the law, like through forms of transphobia which are interpersonal, you have a form of ready-made empathy because of your own experiences. That also means, however, that it's a trigger. And that's not to undermine and to say like, oh, you're just bringing your own bullshit here, because like I said, it is an insight. It's also a trigger because your experiences with your family are still ongoing. You've said that you're still not out with them. You need all this time to recover.

It is ongoing, the trauma, even if your ability to manage it is different, it's ongoing. And so I think that's why you're experiencing this is such a rupture with your friends, because your friends were the acceptance and the tie to life and to sociality that you needed. When you see them behaving in a way which you think wouldn't be that for trans people. It has a destabilizing impact on you. And so that's not to say that this is all on you. I think it's just helpful for you to understand where you're coming from. And it's probably also something that might be helpful for you to express because you're not just having a debate about, what do you

think of trans people? Thumbs up, thumbs down. The actual conversation that you're having with your friends is about, well, what's the window of tolerance for acceptance? That's the conversation you're having and they might be having one which is abstract. And so I think that if what you want to do is have a conversation which is honest, I think you've got to say, well, this is kind of why I'm feeling this way. These experiences that I'm being shaped by and that's also why when I was talking to you, very close friend, I got so heated and upset because this is activating all of those kind of adrenalized survival instincts and perceptions of threat that I developed through these experiences with my family. And I don't think that's about like emotion. It's not emotionally manipulative if the next bit isn't, and therefore I'm right.

It's sharing and generous when you go, you know, I was interacting with you on this basis, and I think I was maybe unaware of some of the things I was bringing to the party. I think that just opens up something where you can also persuade people through a real recognition of where you're both coming from. I think that Moyad is completely right, asking why, but also being interested in the answer. Because in real life, so much persuasion is through listening and really, really listening. And I think that if what you're experiencing is this sort of, you know, it's a panic response, it's sort of PTSD response. It's like heat and distress.

You know, you've also got to think about how best you can listen in order to persuade. And so I think just a bit of reckoning about where you're coming from is going to be helpful. I have nothing to add. That was so comprehensive and so well analyzed about the emotions behind this as well. And how those can be turned into something productive so that your friends actually recognize the humanity of other people. Which, you know, is sad when people don't, but also that's a thing that people would also do. So it's- Nobody is right on everything the first time. Yeah, yeah, so true.

Right, let's wrap, let's wrap this up. Let's wrap this fucker up. We will see you, wrap this up. We will see you next week. I have been Moya LM with me. I have been Moira L.M. with me. I have been Ash. My middle name also begins with an S, so my initials are ass.

It's terrible. You can't see the face I'm making right now. That's amazing! That's amazing! That is an incredible tidbit for us to end on. Shake that ass, watch yourself, shake that ass, show me what you're working with. Oh, that's so good. All right, see you next week everyone.

Bye. Bye. Thanks for watching!