If I Speak - 72: Why does it always have to be me taking responsibility?

Episode Date: July 22, 2025

*We’ve got merch! The If I Speak Baggu bag is ethically made, comes in two colours and is available now from shop.novaramedia.com* Ash and Moya descend into the guilt vortex for a conversation about family, responsibility, and parents who need to be parented. Plus: advice for a special one with a workplace crush. Send us […]

Hello. Hello. Hi. I thought we'd try a different intro today. I wanted to be mysterious. I want to be like, hi, who is this? Who's talking? That's not mysterious. That's slutty. I wouldn't know slutty if you put me on the ass at this stage. I've forgotten what it's like being a s- I've forgotten what it's like to be a hoe. Let's do that as a topic. How do I be a hoe again?

Make more a hoe again. Make more a hoe again. Bring back hoedom. Teach me the ways of the hoe. How do I flirt? How do I hoe around town? How do I throw this cat around? Big questions. How do you flirt would be a really, really interesting discussion because I also, I've been told I'm a flirty person and yet I've always felt like I'm really bad at flirting. That is fascinating. Like, why do you think you're bad at flirting? Um, because sometimes it involves this sort of like, slightly coy cat and mousey thing, which I've never felt

particularly good at, or like a driving conversation towards like a more sexual place, which like, again, that doesn't come naturally to me. But I think the reason why I am perceived as flirty by others is that one, I'm like curious about people and I really, really like asking them questions. And then two, I love banter. And you're very charming. I just love it. You're very charming and charismatic. So I imagine people... Danke. Danke. But I would say that you are a flirtatious person.

Really? Yeah. She says, flashing those pearly whites with me. I can't help it if I've got a lot of teeth. Okay? That's just nature, baby. I think I'm probably quite flirty unless it's somebody... I don't know if it's, it's not conscious flirting. I like to try and, as you say, be interested in people and charm them and smile.

But if it's someone that I actually am physically attracted to, then I shut down. I'm just... Then it's complete, never look at them again. Don't interact with them. Go very red and quiet and mumble. So I lose all my... Only looking at them through the tail of your eye.

Yeah, I lose all of my skills, whereas I've got a friend who's like so... she's Marilyn Monroe. I call her Marilyn Monroe. She's so good at it. But the thing is, is that as you're doing that, like listeners to the pod won't be able to see, is that Moja's doing some real like... It's just ADHD stretching. able to see is that Moja's doing some real like kind of you know I don't know how to put it into words it is not ADHD stretching it was vamping. I was vamping. Vamping was what was happening. Yeah that was vamping. Oh maybe I well. Who me? I'm not a flirt. Okay, well I just need to learn how to convert the vamp, or transfer the vampdom from the general population who I find it easy to talk to, to men that I may or may not find physically

attractive. Maybe we should keep doing with flirting. Maybe we should sack off what I was going to talk about and we should talk about flirting instead because there's a lot of fertile grammar. I think I would like to do my homework for flirting. Okay, cool. Right, we'll flirt another day. I would like some time for prep,

but we can flirt another day. All right, question one. Show me and then describe the last photo you took on your camera roll. Oh, let me just check it's safe for consumption. Oh, it's fine. Okay, can you see it? This is the photo. It's a sign that I can't read. It says Wigmore School and it was on my Instagram story and it is yeah it's a picture of a purple

sign and it says Wigmore School and it's on a driveway and I took that picture because Wigmore School and it's on a driveway. And I took that picture because I recently went to my old high school because they asked me back, woo finally, what I've been waiting for my whole life, they asked me back to give a talk to the student, the attend students and do a workshop on journalism. And I was really gassed about doing that so I took a little picture as I went in to be like back at the old, the old ends. Back in the bits. Back in the bits. So that was the last picture I took a little picture as I went in to be like, back at the old ends. Back in the bits. Back in the bits. So that was the last picture I took on my camera.

All right, question two. Context for this is last week, I found out some very alarming information about a colleague, which is that she just doesn't like any sauces, you know, like ketchup, mayo, hollandaise, et cetera. It was very distressing to me personally as a lover and a fan of the sauce. So if you were trying to persuade someone

about the virtues of sauces, which sauce do you think is the best ambassador for the whole sauce family? I don't like sauces that much. Okay, no, let me get this right. Let me get this right. Okay. I don't like mayonnaise. I'm not a big fan of hollandaise.

I like sauces that are not dippable. For dippable stuff, I want dips, right? I want my slight bit of, I want there to be that texture. I want there to be that thickness, that viscousness. Okay. So if I'm dipping like bread, I want there to be slightly more substance to my dips. Sources wise, I think the sources work best in tandoor,

which is why if I was trying to persuade someone of a sauce, I would be like, okay, you need to have the mix of whatever they're putting in the lamb shawarma wraps on Seven Sisters Roads. You need the garlic sauce and whatever secret sauce they're using. But then there's other, you know, like there's other sauces as well. Like the blends that you have on a stir fry, whatever, I don't know if like roti canai even counts as a sauce, because it's sauce texture, but it's like curry, but it is literally sauce and you have the chicken in it. Those are the, those are like saucy, sauce adjacent, but they're not sources

because they don't stand alone as additions to the meal that you can leave or take. So I think the most practical answer is obviously ketchup because it's just the most bargain basement one. However, the answer I would give is my mother's St. Lucian recipe. She's not from Saint Lucia, she's a white British lady, but she got it from Saint Lucia.

Saint Lucian barbecue sauce recipe, which she put specifically on barbecue ribs, which I ate when I went home, which is one of the best sauce I've ever eaten in my entire life and only, I never make. What are the components? What are the components?

Loads of ketchup. There's ketchup, there's all kinds of things. She sent me the recipe once. There's like Worcestershire sauce, I think there's a bit of soy, there's obviously sugar, like marinades for a night, there's loads of different bits, vinegars. It's both sweet and sharp. Oh my god. I've only made it once for another person and that was my ex. All right, final question.

And I wrote this before I saw what your theme was about this week. Do you think that you've been changed by doing this pod? Yes, absolutely. I think this pod has acted as mini therapy for me, which is probably quite unhealthy. And I think it's made me confront things. But I also think most of it has been changed because every week I listen to the pod as well. So obviously I get to talk to your mic, but then I get to hear you properly.

Because when we go back and forth, I hear you and we respond, but then I get to like listen again and really take in. Like sometimes I listen to episodes three times because I'm really going over and marinating with the stuff you're saying. And because we often have, we come from similar places, we have different viewpoints, it's been so useful to hear like your wisdom and perspective and ideas on things.

And I think that has really changed the way I approach things and it's changed the way I consider things and it's also made me like try and sit further with the idea of different angles, et cetera, which you don't always hear in the moment, but afterwards it's had a real impact on the conversations I'm having with my friends, the way I conduct my relationships,

and also about myself. I feel, I wouldn't say I feel like ready to date again, but I'm definitely considering like fully ready. Will I ever be ready without like hardcore therapy? But I know I need to go ready to date again, but I'm definitely considering fully ready. Will I ever be ready without hardcore therapy? But I know I need to go back to therapy. That's a huge thing. It's opened my eyes too. And as soon as I get the shmoney, I'm there.

But it's also changed me in the way of like, oh, I feel much more aware of some of the issues I didn't know were up there and the soft spots I worked, didn't know were there, the trigger points. The other way it's changed me is I realized I just need I need to get paid more money to doing less work because there's so much so many jobs I have that's a practical thing. There's so many different jobs I'm doing it's like I would love to be able to just give put my entire pussy into like one or two rather than spreading myself more thinly. Rather than spreading the pussy.

Spreading the cat around town over like three or four. So that's a practical way it's changed me. How's it changed you? Oh, it's changed me in loads of ways. One is I think the dynamic of the pod has also made me feel a lot more comfortable with someone contradicting me. And actually, because that's become not just a really enjoyable part of the podcast,

but also something which is like really generative and like challenging in a good way, is that I think I seek it out more because I go, oh, like you've shown me that like, not only can it be done in a way which like feels very psychologically safe and like good. Um, but it's become such a source of like joy, right? It's like, Oh no, this thing, this, this thing is like, she loves to fight, but it's not a fight, but it's not a fight. It's not a fight at

all. It's a discussion like a real, like a real challenge, like, like not a,'t know, it's a discussion. Like a real challenge, like not a, you know, and not one where I'm always gonna, my perspective is gonna win. I think it's really made me feel quite comfortable with the idea of being changed by someone else's perspective, like in a way which feels really, really good. It's definitely made me more reflective, better at giving advice.

One thing which is really annoying about it though is if me and my partner are at some kind of impasse, right, some kind of impasse and like we're, you know, we're clearly like, we're clearly like caught up in our own feelings and getting annoyed by the other persons is that he's now started throwing the pod back in my face being like, and I know you can be more empathetic than this because you do it for a living on the podcast. No. Low blow, Mr Sarko. I'm like, hello, hello. Hello, hello. How dare you? Yeah. How dare you? Yeah, well, this is the thing.

It's like when you're in a disagreement with a romantic partner, it's very different than when you're on air having a like safe disagreement where there's much less almost at stake. And also the job is to have different perspectives that different members of the listeners can be like, oh, I really agree with that, I disagree with that. Like we are avatars, right? Whereas in your romantic interactions, that you're not avatars by yourself. It's so annoying.

It means that he has higher expectations of me as a person. And I'm like, no, damn. You know, I had the upper hand in the relationship when your expectations of me were nice and low. Damn bro, you've been held to those high expectations. Well, that leads us on very nicely to your middle segment, which I think you'll probably have a lot to say about. I really, really want to get your perspective on this because you are in a happy, healthy relationship and I am not.

Happy? Don't know how healthy it is, but we're happy. I feel like you guys definitely work towards healthy relationships. That's the goal, right? So I think you will provide something very useful which is you know you're in a relationship. Anyway okay so this is my intrusive thought. Ever since we discussed compromise the other day, I can't remember when we discussed it, we were discussing compromise we were talking about, when was it? Oh yeah, that it's art not a science. Yes, or it's art not maths. Which episode was it in?

It was in the one where I cried, I think. Maybe. It was very recent. Oh no, it was the one before, because it was about, can you change what you want? Yes, yes, yes, this is a good one. And how do you deal with conflicting ones? So ever since we discussed compromise, I have been turning this question over my head,

and it's one that already kind of plagues me in both relationships and friendships, and the question is, how much should we change for other people? Okay, how much should we change? Because there are two wolves inside me, and one wolf, as we know, is a little soft cub, and you know, meow, meow anytime it hears sort of feedback that

it's maybe a bit more negative or says I need to change or grow or evolve then I immediately fold and I'm like I should do that I need to change everything I need to do this I need to do that I'll really work on this in fact I would say would say less of wolf and more of flubber. There is a flubber-like substance that just wants to kind of bounce around and mould shape in the way that I think or perceive other people want me to in order for them to like and love me. But the other wolf is actually a wolf.

And the mere suggestion of change, it bears its teeth and starts growling. Ah, argh. So that goes for both personality traits and habits. the mere suggestion of change, it bears its teeth and starts growling. So that goes for both personality traits and habits. And I think this is linked to, to, and probably this is a better way, there's a better way to put this in this, but I think both of these sort of like, very polarized stances of like,

I must change everything, I'm not changing anything, are linked to extremely diluted fields of, or schools of cod therapeutic thought, which is one that's like, don't abandon yourself for others, always know your like, know your self worth, know yourself, stand your ground, don't let others change you to be what they want you to be. And then the flip side of that is, you need to grow and change and form a community. You have to compromise. So my question is, how will I know when I should change? How do I know when to compromise versus how do I know when to stand firm

and say, no, you must come to me? Oh, this is so interesting. How much should you change for someone else? I mean the first thing is how much is it possible to change? So before you even get into what you should do I think that there is this question of what is realistic because is the thing that you're doing really moving, right? Moving from one place, one set of patterns into a different one or is it elastic which is going to snap back? So you stretch and you stretch and you stretch but ultimately the shape has got to come pinging right back. So you stretch and you stretch and you stretch, but ultimately the shape has got to come pinging right back. And I think that very often in my experience, when change is being

demanded of you or you're demanding change of someone else and you're saying, be different, it's elastic, that's going to snap back. And when it comes pinging back, it does so with all this added resentment, frustration, You're coming back to the place that you started but with a decreased capacity for generosity and empathy and reflection and consideration. But there is this other thing which is about the change which you need, change which relationships need. And I think that central to that is thinking about what relationships are. Esther Perrell, she says that the relationship is the space between two people. And I think that's really important because it means that you don't think of the relationship as something that lives in you. So it lives and dies on the basis of you being able to change or adapt. And also it doesn't live in the other person,

right? Like, you know, it's a sort of, you know, a pattern of thinking that either agency totally resides in you or totally resides in the other person, which means that you're flipping between a kind of victim and perpetrator narrative of who is to blame. The relationship is this thing, the space between you. I often think about it as like a pool of water where you're pouring things into it. So you change it, but it's something which exists in the space in between. I'm trying to think about

times when me and my partner, but also other people, have made demands of someone to just be different because I think that something that me and my partner have learnt is that the question isn't, can you be different? Can I be different? The question is, can we do this thing differently? And I think that that's really important and it maybe even speaks to different models of therapy, right? You know, there's the systemic model of therapy, which says that your capacity for change by yourself is actually really, really small.

model of therapy, which says that your capacity for change by yourself is actually really, really small. Because the problem is, is that you exist in this system, which conditions you into certain behaviors, rewards some, disciplines others, makes particular demands of you. And the problem with doing loads and loads of work on yourself and saying, I'm going to be different is that if you're in that same system, because we're social animals, you know, you, you phrased it as two wolves, right? Responding to the demands made of you by other people, either in terms of, like get away versus like, I'll be whatever you want me to be. Um, you exist in that system, so your old patterns are gonna come back out.

So literally in some forms of systemic therapy, they won't let you do it alone, right? You've gotta bring the mom in, you've gotta bring the sibling in, you've gotta bring the partner in, you've gotta bring in the system with you, and you will do this therapy together because it's starting from the place that

like you can't really change by yourself because of the way in which the system conditions you. So I think that when me and my partner have been thinking about change, we do tend to think about it in this more systemic way. We think about like, what are the demands that we make of each other? What system of like rewards and discipline do we have? And in doing that, we've created space to change. Because we've obviously, we've been together seven years.

It's going to be our second wedding anniversary next year. A lot has fucking happened, just like life events, but also we have changed a lot in that time. There are things which are consistent, things which are, you know, somewhat stable, but they have but there has been a lot of change. And it's very rarely come from demanding it of of someone else. Where actually I really struggle with that is because within. My romantic relationship.

There is permission to say, well, let's think about the system we've created together. With friends, I've got a habit of rolling over the minute someone says change and probably making unrealistic concessions and taking on an unrealistic amount of responsibility because for whatever reason I find it harder to ask for us to address the system that we've created together which includes their patterns and their behaviors as well. So that's my first way in, which is that like, I think I buy into like the systemic model of therapy when it thinks about change and thinks about people's ability to change.

And I think that, you know, the tug of war model, right? You change or I change and it's adversarial. Even if you might have a big shift for a certain amount of time, it's time limited and you're always going to ping right back into place, you know, or get really, really entrenched in your position because you're experiencing it as threat. Why do you think you find it harder in friendships? Let's get into that.

To kind of enact change within both of you, like together, to say, how can we do things differently instead of saying, okay, I will change. Because I'm a guilt-laden person. Like, I feel so much guilt all the time. I feel it with regards to my own family a lot, big time. Like, I feel like I'm never, never doing enough. And then also because I feel overwhelmed

by the demands that are put on me, I become avoidant. And then I feel really guilty about being avoidant. And then I feel overwhelmed again and like, and all the rest of it. So like, I think that, you know, I've spoken about this with my mom, which is that like, I think that when I was growing up, she gave me feedback about myself which wasn't always true or accurate. And I think that what it was a reflection of was like, her having very high expectations of me and having, when I say high expectations, I'm not talking about like academic expectations. She needed me to be her double, right? Because she's someone who takes on so much responsibility in life, in the family, with everything, is

that I think she needed someone who she could rely on to do that as well and share that with and that became me. So my sister will always be her baby. I'll always be my mom's second self. And it's ironic because my sister's six years older than me, but the dynamic is so, so different. So because of that, my mom would sometimes, like the thing that she would clamp down hardest on me on was what she would perceive to be a selfish or being bad at reading other people.

And so there'd be this narrative of, oh, actually you're really bad at reading people or meeting them where they are or conversing with people. Like, I remember she'd say to me that I was bad at conversing with people. Fascinating that those are all skills that you're sort of prized for now. Well, it's also, I think I was just a teenager, so like they were in development, you know

what I mean? Like maybe sometimes I was bad at those things, but like I was a kid. Like I was learning how to do those things. And the thing that I carry with me is, oh my God, I'm bad at these things. I'm bad at meeting someone where they are. I'm bad at meeting their needs. I'm bad at these things. I'm bad at meeting someone where they are. I'm bad at meeting their needs. I'm bad at seeing what they need from me. I'm selfish.

I'm blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I come in with a load of guilt. And so even though like my mom doesn't say those things to me now, I'm still like so shaped and like conditioned by feeling like, oh my God, I'm just like, I'm a really bad person. Like I'm a bad, ungenerous, selfish, unempathetic person. So then if a friend is telling me something which hits on those notes, I roll over.

Because I'm like, yes, I am, I am all of those things. But that also is doing a disservice to that friend because I can't really change in the ways that I've just said that I'm gonna. Do you feel like there is a debt that you're constantly paying off then, this guilt debt? This, this, I need, is there a point in your head where you feel like you'll have done enough,

you'll have listened enough, you'll have, you know, that you don't feel like you're a bad, selfish person anymore. Do you think, like, how do you tackle that? Because everything you're saying, I feel very deeply, but I'm really interested in it coming from you. My mom is 67 years old. She spent her career first in teaching and then in social work, in child protection, no less,

dealing with child victims of some of the worst abuse that you can imagine. She has been the most responsible party within our family. She cared for first her best friend in the last months of her life, my grandma in the last years of her life, and of course, my stepdad as well. She cared for my sister who was a very, very unwell child and still cares for her when she's unwell. She takes care of her granddaughter, very big loving presence in her granddaughter's life. She will respond in a crisis like no one else you know and she is still plagued by guilt that she doesn't do enough. And she says like, it's funny I'm 67 but I still have the same problem I did when I was a kid,

which is I feel guilty even if I haven't done anything, and then I'll feel guilty because I must have missed out on something if I can't think of what I've done wrong right away. So she's 67 and she's still there. I think that I've moved one step further in that I can name it, and I can say, all right, I know that I'm really conditioned by guilt in a way which is like, so it becomes such a vortex, right? And that leaves me feeling very, very stuck and incapable of change

when I'm in the guilt vortex. And I think coming back to something that we were talking about last week, which is acceptance, which is, you know, you need acceptance for change. And the problem about the guilt vortex is about all these things that like, I can't accept or that I'm afraid of, or, you know, things that I worry about myself with. And I suppose, you know, coming back to your,

your cub and your wolf is, how does shame play into it? Because you've got the cub which says, I'll roll over, I'll be whatever you want me to be, please just don't leave me. And you've got the wolf, which is, you know, prowling the perimeter and baring its teeth and growling. But the point that they share

is like some kind of vulnerability. Like there is something deeply, deeply vulnerable and the cub wants to deal with it by being no, no, no, stay with me, stay with me, stay with me and the wolf wants to deal with it by saying get away. And what is that vulnerability? Well I think we know the vulnerabilities, it's like we don't want people to leave us. We don't want people to leave us. I have questions for you though still. We do a lot of analysis on me, but we don't tend to do as much on you. I did the jujitsu.

You flipped it around and I said, no way, mate, no way. Okay, I guess one of my key questions here is, when you think about this guilt and you think about, I am not doing enough, When you think about this guilt and you think about I am not doing enough, why in friendships is it appeasement that you think meets that brief of this is how I care for this person, this is how I make this person happy, rather than having that difficult conversation which you're willing to have with the partner? partner? I think because with my partner, I can't even describe the trust that exists between us. It's not necessarily always come easily to me. Before we got married, I had this freak out where I was just like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, what am I doing? Like I've, I've,

I've picked a person to make and, and made my happiness dependent on them. What the fuck have I done? Um, but ultimately, um, I don't feel more powerful than him. I don't feel that he's more capable of hurting me than I am capable of hurting him. I know that in order for the relationship to work, it has to be a relationship of equals. And we've really, really pursued that from the start. And I think that a lot of where the guilt comes from and how it plays out in friendships and in other kinds of relationships as well is again part of the story and this goes like way back into childhood is like basically having an inferiority complex that stems from either a sense of superiority or being told

you've got the power to really hurt other people and you have to reign that in at every turn. Certainly in terms of how my mum would try to deal with the dynamic between me and my sister. My sister physically was obviously very, very vulnerable. When she was a kid, she was in hospital a lot, she nearly died. So in my mum's eyes, she became defined by that vulnerability. But then it would play out in all sorts of ways, even just normal conversations or just normal arguments that sisters would have, which is my mom would rush in to want to protect my sister from everything, which would also include me. So then I think I had this sense of being a sort of like, you know, kind of like a giant that can like crush things under my big feet

and needing to protect others from my own ability to hurt them. How similar our lives are in so many ways. I also have a critically ill sister that was framed to me as a much more fragile person than me and I was always the one thumping her on the head metaphorically or literally sometimes. Like little bunny foo foo. Yeah, like this.

But okay, so talking, obviously the dynamic you're describing here in some friendships is a codependent one, in which you are putting the needs and the perception of this person above, you're tamping your own feelings, thoughts down, because you're so worried about hurting someone else. But the thing is, if you don't treat them as an equal, they will never be an equal. And it doesn't matter what they say, whether even they perceive themselves as inferior, whatever, you have to treat them as an equal. You have to hold them to that standard. Because do you know what you said in this episode,

I was even gonna say, the earliest episode you said, your partner is holding you now to high expectations, right? And you have to meet them. If you don't hold your friends to the same expectations, like whether they like it or not, they might not like it. They might not even stay friends with you. But if you don't address them as equals and treat them as equals and stop bending over backwards in a way they

haven't maybe explicitly asked, but also have got used to, the codependent dynamic will never break. And obviously, you can have a conversation about it. But you are also feeding that dynamic. I mean, oh my god, like, you know, one, you are completely correct. Two, I already know this. Yeah. Three, and this comes back to your initial question, what is my ability to change it? And I hate, ability is the wrong word, capacity to change it. And so here we're not talking about your ability in the abstract. It's like, oh, how much of a real grip do I have on myself in this regard. And it's like with, I mean, there's certain things that I don't share

on the pod because they involve other people. And one is like, I have a family which is like very, very loving in so many ways, but there's also been a real, really high level of dysfunction for a really long time that comes from things that other people are dealing with. And I'm never going to be able to share that with the pod because you do have to hold some things back. But one of those things was that one of the individuals in my family system who is the most unboundaried, volatile, difficult people, is that whenever another family member asks me, do something to help this person and taking on real positions of like legal and financial responsibility, I don't feel able to say no.

So I just say yes, even though it's bound me closer to this person that like I actually find really like just like incredibly difficult and like, um, you know, like, like very, very, very triggering, but because in my head, I'm so scared of being perceived as selfish and being perceived as someone who doesn't, you know, show up enough, is that I'll always say yes to doing the most difficult thing. And then how that's played out in like times of grief,

is that like, you know, you'd think that I was keen on watching people die. I'm not. I don't like it. It sucks. But the minute something like that's happening, I feel like if I'm not there, I will have been a bad person. And one of the things that I still feel like a real sense of shame about, and like, you know, the night everything happened with my stepdad, my mom rang me and she was scared and me and my partner went over is that, you know, I went in to

see my stepdad who was in the living room and he was, it was, it was horrible. Like it was just a really, really horrible situation. And so then I went into the kitchen and I found it so difficult to go back into that other room. I found it so, so, so, so difficult. And I could hear the noises of distress and I could hear the vulnerability that was going on in there. And my partner was in there and did a lot of that stuff. You know, the thing I did was like,

you know, my stepdad didn't want the ambulance to get called. And I did, because I was just like, I'm just, if you're going to be mad at anyone, be mad at me. Like, it just, it has to happen. But I was so frightened of going back in there and I felt so horrifically and I still feel really horrifically selfish about it. Because I was, I couldn't do it. Like, like it was the thing I couldn't, I found, and in my head I'm like, no, but you should have been able to because that's your job. Your job is to go into the horrible room. But I can do it.

You know that that's not your job. You know, I don't. I don't. You know, you can't feel that. But theoretically, obviously, if I if I was saying this, you would say that isn't your job. You've been put in a position throughout your life, where people have made you feel like it's your job. And because of the condition you have, and the type of person you are, you've taken that on and

said, Okay, that's my job, then. And then they will put more on you to make it your job. Because once you step into a role, and show that you can do those things, other people abdicate their responsibilities to you, right? That's because other people might be more able to be selfish than you. And you, for various reasons, have become the person who is, you know, we have mass complexes, all of that,

but you force yourself to do these things because you think other people won't. And obviously in the case of your stepped as passing, that is a very specific thing. I don't think I would be able to go into the room if my stepdad was in great medical distress, like even thinking about it. I would be out of the house, like it would make,

it would really, really, the fact that you feel shame about not being there, I really understand that, but I need someone to say to you that wasn't your job. You did, you showed up where you could, which is you physically showed up to that house. You called an ambulance. Your partner was there to support you.

He also did, he was in that room. It's, if you don't leave that space, then people continue to abdicate the responsibility onto you all the time, they will continue to put things on you, because you will just say yes, there will be no end to the yes. And this is the problem with having the the master complex and the supporter complex and all of this stuff. Other people don't have the same hang ups that we might.

They'll have different hangups and do different things, but you will come across people who fit with you very well because they want to emotionally, I don't want to say dump because it's unfair, but they have a lot of emotions, like the need thing we talked about, right? They have a bottomless pit of emotion and need, and they need to get it out,

and you're there and you'll receive it all. They have a bottomless pit of emotion and need and they need to get it out and you're there and you'll receive it all. They have endless jobs that no one else wants to do because they're really hard, but Ash will do them because Ash always does and then Ash always shows up. And you are the only person who can start saying no to that and that's the unfair thing because again, the responsibility is on you to say no.

The responsibility is on you to push back. But then it comes back to the system of relationships that you're in because the problem is, or like how I see the problem and when I think about that room is that, well, like obviously thank God my partner was there. And if he wasn't, I probably, or I hope that I'd have been able to put myself in there.

But for me, and especially when it comes to the family role, it's like, okay, now if the room is a metaphor for dealing with the horrible thing and taking responsibility for it, is that if I don't do it, then my mum has to do it alone. And so I think that like, you know, and again, just broadening out a little bit in terms of like, what is your real capacity for change? And I think one of the things I'm identifying is like the system of incentives, obligations, disciplining, all the rest of it,

is that obviously other people love my mum. It's not that other people love my mum less than I do. But for various reasons, whether it's proximity or capacity, there are many things that would leave her alone in the room. That would mean that she was alone in the room if I didn't put myself in there with her. This is very hard to discuss because I also know exactly what you mean. Like I feel this exact responsibility for my own mother. I feel the exact responsibility for a lot of the problems that she has.

I see it as like my responsibility to support her financially now. Like as I'm getting older, I see it as my responsibility to take on so much of what I've seen her do for me and for my sister. And I suppose the slight difference is I know that there are people around her that will also take that on as well. But more and more, I feel like I should be doing it as the first born.

And I presume you've probably reached out to the other people around your mum and asked them, can they take on some of this stuff? And that you've probably explored those options already. So there isn't like an easy answer. And I don't I also don't want to be like, no, you should do this. You just because you've probably thought of that and done it already. But I, I do wonder if it's it's more of a conversation conversation again to have with both your mum and your partner and these other people and say,

I can't handle all this and sometimes I will need you to do these things and that I feel like otherwise I'm leaving you, my mother, on your own in this room. So I need these people to do these things as well. Like, is that a conversation that you've been able to have? The thing is, is that the other people within the system made choices that put their own needs ahead of the obligations which existed. And it left my mom like holding it all together, right? People moved far away.

People, you know, they literally would be like, see ya, like for this stuff. And it meant that it all fell on my mom. And then when it came to like dealing with some of the emotional fallout of that stuff, my mom took that on again. And I think that like, you know, and then it's funny because like there is a mirror image of me and my mom in the family, which is one of my stepbrothers and it's the one who I'm closest to. And so when it comes to, you know,

because obviously stepfamilies, like it's, it's a lie to say, oh, it's all just one family. Like it's, you know, there are, there are these sort of like, you know, the, it's not a wholly separate family either, but kind of like within the system that he primarily exists in, shall say like you know he's very much a parentified child because because he's had to be right it's like you know like the responsibilities that exist like you know like I think that and this this is so fundamental to the conversation

about change right which is um when it comes to dynamics, right? There are some dynamics which have less of, shall we say, like a material basis for them. And I think that you can start shifting them with introducing different thought patterns, introducing different coping mechanisms, introducing introducing different coping mechanisms, introducing, you know, new, shall we say, moves, like in the dance of you and this person or a group of people. And then sometimes in life there are just like, you can't change that someone is very, very ill. Yeah. You cannot change that, you know, finances might be a particular way. You can't change that there are children who need to be looked after. You know, you cannot change that, you know, for, you know, that someone is incarcerated. You can't change those things. And they have a gravitational force. And I think that people who understand this because it exists in their social system, whether it's a system of friends or their family.

Get it, right? Like, because sometimes the advice that you get from other people is like, well, you know, maybe you should opt out more. And it's like, no, you can't. You can't. You just can't. I can't, I can't Brexit this one.

Yeah. Like, I can't do it. So it's funny, like, you know, in my family, and I always say this, right, like, you know, sometimes it's just that there's two types of people, right? Like there's me and my mom, there's this particular set brother, and then there are the sort of volcanoes, right?

The expressers, the people who just drop it is to just express. And I think it's so hard for me to change, you know, the thing about my romantic relationship is that it is a relationship of my choosing. Both I have chosen this person, but also we choose each other every single fucking day. And that's a really important thing

for when you're trying to navigate things which are difficult, because it is also a solution to resentment. Well, you can't be like, you're doing this to me. It's like, well, I'm here because I want to be. Yeah, I'm here because I want to be in. I'm here because I've chosen you. Um, with family and I think with, with things which feel like family.

You have not chosen this, right? You've not, you've not chosen the circumstances and it is so difficult to find room for change. I would so agree with the family aspect. And that is why I'm gonna say what I'm gonna say next, which is sometimes there are friendships that feel like family, but they're not. And they don't have the same material concerns,

considerations, choices, and you actually might have more room to bring the relationship or bring the dynamics that you and change the dynamics that you have done, you know, with your partnership with those, then obviously you would with the family situation. And I think that's why it's an impetus, especially if the family situation is one

where there isn't that much room for change and you are kind of like, well, sometimes things are the way they are and they have to be the way they are. And it's horrible, it sucks. That is even more impetus for why, when there is a relationship that feels like you can't change the dynamic, but actually, if you examine it, you can, there is that still maneuvering thing.

There is that so that room that would be hard and it would be tricky, but it can be done. It's not like you're locked in and someone's chronic leal, you're locked in and you've got someone's got to look after these children. And you know, no one's going to step up but someone and someone else and it's gonna be them whether whether you know, no one's gonna step up but someone and someone else and it's gonna be them whether, you know, there's not really another choice. But with these friendships that sometimes feel like family

because of, you know, whatever, longevity, the bond, specific dynamics that might mirror those you have within your family, they're not. That is a key thing. Like I have a friendship where it does mirror some of my family dynamics. And that's one of the reasons I'm so drawn to it. But also crucially, it's not that.

It is not that. And that because of that reason, we have really managed to address after, I would say several years of dancing around the issues and me probably rolling over quite a lot, we've actually gone and said, I've actually managed to stand up and go, this is the dynamic. I think we've actually discussed the dynamic and that is so hard, but we have done it and no one died. And in fact, it brought us close together and it might not always do that. But I think when you take so much

on in one portion of your life, you have to lessen those burdens and those instincts to be atlas elsewhere, otherwise you will crumble and you won't have that space and then you can't do anything and you will just stop one day. But you see, I'm so fucking toxic, right? I'm so fucking toxic because you're like, you know, you can't be atlas because, you know, one day you'll crumble and I'm like, not me, I'm different. No, no. I can hear my mother's voice in that. I can hear my mother's voice in that so much because she'd be like, not me. But think about it this way.

Your mother had, you know, not you'd, and then she had you. And she split that burden with you, you know, and I'm not saying that in like a way, that's just me talking. She split that burden with you. Who are you going to split that burden with you, you know, and I'm not saying that in like a, no, it's just something you told me, she split that burden with you. Who are you gonna split that burden with? You're not having children. You don't want to, you wouldn't even want to pass it on. So like, who's gonna, who's even gonna take that?

So yes, you will, you will crumble. And I say that because I'm talking to myself here as well. As I inch towards 30, the choices and the dynamics and decisions, it's not even choices, the way I was, the patterns I have, the Marta complex, the co-dependency that I'm drawn to, the fixing nature, and that like very forthright, this is how we're going to change your life and then completely running out of energy and having to get the energy back again, no, we're going to fix you.

Then running out and having these disagreements with people because they think I'm trying to fix them, but what they want me to fix, all of that stuff. Always being the mother, always being the maternal, always being the firefighter. That has led me to some very, very bleak mental places in recent years. And I'm realizing the weight

of carrying that for 30 years. You are two years older than me. You have even more responsibilities than me. They are gonna go somewhere because your mum put them somewhere. And it's up to you to decide whether you're gonna lessen them now, or if you're gonna one day have a breakdown,

or is it gonna be you're gonna draw your partner into those responsibilities and it won't be the teamwork thing anymore like these are questions you have to consider because that and the energy always goes somewhere I choose breakdown no option be option B is talk to the friends that That's option B. That's my option B for you. The hilarious thing about this conversation is me trying to fix it. Me sitting here being like, let's sort this out now. I just think it's things to consider. There is usually somewhere where there is a little bit of room for making people take responsibility for themselves. and it's not in the family sphere. You've got the romantic sphere sorted

like you actually are equals. So that leaves one sphere to me quite obviously where those discussions can be had and you can talk about changing the dynamic rather than changing each other's people. This was a crazy place to end up from change. It was crazy. Look, I'm one of these days, one of these days like, you know, when everyone is dead, I will explain the family law because it's actually fucking crazy. When you've got the memoir in. Shall we read out? What section is this? What section is this? This is, I'm in big trouble. And if people would like to tell us about the exact ways they're in big trouble, they can submit dilemmas to if I speak at NavarraMedia.com that is if I

speak at NavarraMedia.com. You can also go to NavarraMedia.com slash maybe shop and buy one of our pieces of merch if you'd like to support our advice giving financially. It's a gorgeous new item called a bagu which says special one on it. And I actually wear mine out all the time now, which is crazy narcissism. I've been using mine and it really, really, really... It carries a lot of weight and like not emotional baggage, what I mean is like groceries. Yeah, it's really handy.

I took it to the beach, I take it to the store and it goes with my outfits. I really like it Maybe we should get a cap that says parentified child. No, we should do that for ourselves And then everyone else gets a special one Because I don't feel like everyone's gonna wear a parentified child out But I do I do believe that everyone would want to wear a special one cap It's sick. That's true. That's cool. Well, maybe But I do believe that everyone would want to wear a special one cap. It's sick. That's true. It's true.

Or maybe Atlas holding a third. No, I've got, you know, I've got my tat off that already. Really? Yeah, that's my Atlas tat. I don't know if you can see it. It looks crazy, though. That's Atlas. I see.

And there's the world. I got that for my 30th birthday. To remind me to stop holding the world on my shoulders. Have I done it? No. Okay. No. Right.

You're reading out the dilemma. Yes. Dear Ashen Moya, firstly, I want to say thank you for providing such a great podcast each week. I started listening a few months ago on my morning walks to work and I haven't missed an episode since. Your discussions are dynamic and thought provoking. Now onto my dilemma. The short version is I fancy my supervisor at work. The long version.

I am a woman in my early thirties and have historically been a serial monogamist. I've been single, however, for the last two years and this time has been really good for me. I've learnt a lot about myself and feel more independent and comfortable being alone. Having said that, I know now that I am ready for a relationship. Like many people, I've become increasingly fed up with the modern dating landscape and the apps of doom as well as continually dating emotionally stunted men. I decided a while ago to come off the apps and commit myself to making IRL connections the old-fashioned way. I wrote a list on my phone of everything I wanted

in a partner and a relationship, what the ideal would look like. Part of me secretly hoped it might manifest that person into my life. Well, fate works in mysterious ways. I started a new job a few months ago and I met this person who ticks pretty much all of my boxes. The problem is he is my supervisor.

We are both single of a similar age and seem to hold similar values and interests. We get on really well and with ease. I know that this may not seem like a problem. After all, a lot of people have met historically through work, right? Yet whilst it's not explicitly stated, I get the vibe that my current workplace isn't somewhere which would tolerate romantic relationships between colleagues. I quite like my job and want to continue to do well and progress. The thought of making my working life difficult in the future through pursuing a romantic connection fills me with dread. With this in mind, I accepted my fate and decided to just be friends with the man.

With him, none the wiser of my feelings or internal dialogue. However, as time has gone on, I still can't shake this feeling. I've gone on dates and spent time with other people, people who are generally good with loads of green flags. Yet I still find myself thinking about my supervisor instead. If I were any younger, or in a different place in my life, maybe I wouldn't be writing. But I'm at the point now where I'm ready to meet someone I can have a genuine connection with.

I want a relationship, companionship, and ultimately, at some point, a family. I don't want to settle for someone who isn't quite right, as we are repeatedly told in the dating world, it is the trenches out there. I don't want to mystify or romanticise my experience too much, but this off-limits man would literally be a perfect match if it wasn't for these circumstances. Of course, he might not even feel this way about me either, but I can't help but hope that the feelings are reciprocated. Do I just focus on my career and leave this well alone? Do I wait it out and see if anything develops naturally? Or do I attempt to form more of a flirtatious or romantic connection? Professionalism be damned. My friends think I should go for it, but I wouldn't even know where to start. Would love to get your thoughts. Yours,

I should go for it, but I wouldn't even know where to start. Would love to get your thoughts, yours, special one. Boom, boom, boom. Dun, dun, dun, dun. I mean... Have you ever had a workplace fling? No, I don't shit worry. I haven't had a workplace bling because I work with, in media and I have a rule that I don't date other journalists.

Because I've never done it. I've never done it, but. I'm always fascinated by those who do though. And I have lots of close friends who have done it. And it's always, I think the thing, and I don't know if this holds you back as well, is you have to cross a certain boundary in order to do it. And I would never cross that boundary.

Like it's so hard for me to even flirt with someone I'm interested in in the wild, let alone in a context where I'm not meant to do it and I might get rejected by someone I see every day. That seems impossible to me. So that's why I've never had a fling, a webplacing, but everyone else used to shag all the time. They'd always be at it.

Yeah, I mean, okay. Do you want to lead with advice for a special one? Yeah, although, okay, there's sort of two routes you can go down here, right? What do you prize more? Do you want love? Do you want a romantic connection? Or do you care about your career more?

Those are the two things I would say. What do you actually want more? Because the sensible thing and the morally correct thing and the ethically correct thing, I don't mean morally, ethically correct thing, is leave it alone unless they hit on you probably. Or leave it alone altogether until you get a new job. I don't know if more ethically correct to wait until male superior. Yeah, exactly. The main thing is leave it alone unless you get like a clear signal of interest and then

you can do it back because again, otherwise you are sexually harassing them if you're like trying to DM them, blah, blah, blah. The other sneaky thing that's obvious you should do is just go to the pub. Go to after work drinks. See how you get on, see if there's a vibe. If there's a vibe, ask them to come to the pub, just you and them, you're asking them out, that's it. But if they say no, if it goes tits up,

just be prepared that you might have to get a new job. That's the basic thing, isn't it? It's like shit will get off the pot, otherwise you're gonna be sitting fret you might have to get a new job. That's the basic thing isn't it? It's like shit will get off the pot otherwise you're going to be sitting fretting on this work crush for so long. It could also just be a proximity crush. You won't know unless you go to the pub with them as maybe in a group or work thing, but you have to see them out of hours and see how you vibe and see if there's anything there because right now it sounds like you're just having in-office chats and that's a mate. So what I would say is that right now, this man is not your perfect man. He might turn out to be one, right?

He could be, I'm not foreclosing that at all. And, and, you know, um, might be the right thing for you. But right now, he is still to a certain degree a fantasy because you are in a situation where he is not his full self. He's at work, you're in proximity, but there's still enough lack of knowledge that it's possible to project a bit and to take the details which resemble your sense of what an ideal partner is and you sort of fill in the blanks. Work is perfect

for that because it's proximity without emotional responsibility. There are other forms of responsibility, but it's not the emotional responsibility that comes from being in a real relationship. And I think that's why work crushes can be so powerful for people. Again, it's not really happened for me and I don't know why. I think it's just because I'm incredibly cautious and risk averse when it comes to anything to do with my money.

Avoiding at hands also don't, I think, go for work relationships as much. Yeah, that's true. Cause I'm like, I'm around you all the time. So I've never had a work crush, I'm around you all the time. So I've never had a work crush, but it's, right now it's sort of like, fantasy that's born of proximity and restraint, right?

People always think that like constraint kills fantasy. Oh, no, no. Constraint is the, one of the defining and conditional features of a fantasy. Yearning. Yearning. You can't yearn for someone you can have. Do you know what I mean? Like you need the obstacle for the yearning to kick in. Again, this doesn't mean that something real can't come of it. It's just, I think it's important to bear that in mind when you're thinking of your feelings,

which is that right now it's a fantasy. But then again, so are all crushes, right? And crushes turn into real committed things all the time. It's just right now it's a fantasy. Thing two is that you have to be ready to take responsibility for what happens next. The problem with, oh, like nothing can happen and I'm going to sit here, is that like, things do happen, but you've walked backwards into it, right, rather than forwards and taking responsibility for it.

You know, I think if you are going to, because there's no such thing as wait and see either, right? What there is is I'm going to remain in this situation and in ways which are plausibly deniable engineer situations. Again, that's another form of walking backwards. I think, yeah, do what Moira said, which is, you know, go to the pub, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But know that if something does happen and you start seeing each other, you are going to have to inform work. Like, you are, you are going to have to. And I think that maybe it's also important to bear in mind that something real happening means the death of the fantasy. Like, it means killing the fantasy. It means that you would probably have to stop working directly underneath this person. You'd probably see each other less at work.

And you would have to have a real relationship. And, you know, the forbidden fruit is always the sweetest, is it not? Do you want your work husband or would you like a real husband? Yeah. And for me, it'd always be a work husband. I've never had a work husband in my life. I'm too repressed to have work relationships. It's really, really funny because my partner is going to do some work for Navarro Media, helping

us with some strategy stuff. And what that will involve is me being in a meeting with him. And I feel so weird about it. I'm like, ah! Not the professional and the personal spheres coming together. Maybe they'll have a cute little snog in the corridor for Bidin. We are not having a snog in the corridor. I know, I love that. Something really perverse that I have done in my past is when I am in a relationship, often their fields will overlap with mine, so I'll drag them into doing something in my professional world,

which is so perverse. I'm like, you should appear on this. You should appear on this with me. You should come on as a guest. You should write this for me. I'll commission you. Fucking crazy stuff. Like that's, there's a weird, there's something going on there.

There's something going on. No, but I think that there's a weird, there's something going on there. There's something going on there. No, but I think that there is something about, okay, it's not just crushes, but what I'd say romantic intrigues, right? So the thing where before it is a relationship and something which operates out in the open, which means known to yourselves and known to other people,

but when it's in this sort of space of like half secrecy or like a lack of clarity on like what it is, like people do really mad shit where like even if it's completely counterproductive, like one thing which I've noticed and I've seen this happen multiple times and I'm also pretty sure that I've done it myself, is that when a woman and a man have a romantic intrigue, but it's sort of like, oh no, it's just, you know, but it's not a relationship, it's not gonna go anywhere, is that the woman often offers to set the man up with someone else in her world. I've seen it happen so many times,

and I also know that I've done it. My friends have accused me in the past of doing that. Mine is more disease though because it'll just be someone that I find attractive but I'm so repressed I won't go for them so I'll just give them to someone else. But the thing is it's not giving them away and you have to know this about yourself. Yeah, it's keeping control over there. It's not actually giving them away. And you have to know this about yourself. It's not actually giving them away. It's control and it's a sort of vicarious fulfillment.

Luckily my friends go, I don't want your slobby seconds. I'm like, but I haven't even gotten that. And they're like, mentally you have. Mentally you're there. Mentally you've done it. Sometimes people will ask me out and I'll be like, oh, they're really hot, but I can't, and I'll immediately talk myself out of it.

And I'll be like, but what about my friend? Oh, terrible, ghost. At least check me into Bedlam. It's time. Disease, disease brain. I can't be walking the streets. I can't be walking the streets. Nah, mate, it's too late for Bedlam.

Dignitas, one please. Dignitas, One ticket to Switzerland. Right, let's wrap the show up. You've been? I've been a parentified child from now until the end of time. Forever. I've been Moir Lady Maclean. You can call me Miss Maclean if you're nasty. Right, bye.