If I Speak - 75: The world needs more flirting. Here’s how

Episode Date: August 12, 2025

*Support the show by copping the If I Speak Baggu bag – it’s ethically made, comes in two colours and is available from shop.novaramedia.com* Moya and Ash tackle a topic that turns up in the If I Speak mailbox every week: how can we get better at flirting IRL – and coping with rejection? Plus, how […]

Hello, hello, hello, hello. Bonjour. My mic is not close enough. Now it is. Can you hear me? I think we were doing the tune. And it's from Sound of Music, which I've never watched. And never will, too, Tui.

It's very Tui, but then the Nazi plot really speeds up. Still not enough to draw me in, I have to say. Oh, but Pee peeping like there are Nazis in it. Still not enough to pull me in. If I want to watch something that has, you know, the ominous backdrop of the rising, Nazi administration, I'll just watch cabaret. I was going to say, you seem like a cabaret girl to me. Come to the caper.

Maybe this time is a karaoke song that I've always wanted to do. I never got the chance to. Maybe this time I'll be lucky. Pure theatre kids. What's the one where it's like, a tiger is a tiger? Not a lamb. Mine hair. Yeah, it's, I can't remember the name of it, but the MC is doing it, I believe.

But I do what I do. I went to see at the Kit Kat Club, which not the real KitKat Club, the fake one in London, that they turned, I can't remember the new theatre into, because Cabaret's had a very long residency in London with their production that I could only describe as FCA Twigs Eusextia era meets Cabaret. And it's, I really enjoyed it. I thought it was great. And I was in the rafters having a great time. And tickets were like only 308 quid for the rafters.

So I'd highly recommend a visit if anyone wants to go. Shall I ask you some questions? Only if they're about cabaret, but yes. Ask me some questions. Okay, well, I'm actually going to swap out my first question then. What is your favourite song from a musical? Oh, well, I've just answered it. I think it genuinely is.

It depends to be singing it, because if it's me singing along to it, it's, maybe this time I'll be lucky. Oh, Liza Minnelli doing that one of her daytime talk show appearances. Oh, my God. so good if it's oh it's gonna be if we're talking

about Liza Minnelli performances it's gotta be New York Liza with a Z oh is she singing in that

that goes Lisa Manuli she doesn't really fast oh no I haven't I haven't seen that one I'm afraid

but if it's someone else singing it oh maybe the Lion King musical he lives in you live

oh that's because it's so moving so sensation oh my god when you see that live and I've accidentally seen it live three times but the chorus that comes in

awe as a ven yeah and it's like oh and it's monia ma nah ah

the rhythm and the melody and that and the way they sing it is so satisfying on a molecular level Oh, those. For me, though, if we're now including Disney musicals, it's got to be I'll make a man out of you.

This is in real life, though, just so we're clear. I'm talking live performance. I don't give a fun about the animated film. This is live performers, Ash. Like, someone shut that talking hornbill up. Okay, you can, if you're doing Disney films, that would be a completely different question for me. That'd be Little Mermaid.

Part of your world. Oh, which one? Part of your world. Oh. I want to be where the people are. Pick me anthem. No, not pick me anthem. She's saying up where they walk, up where they run. You know, she's like, I bet their fathers don't reprimand their daughters.

Bright young women, sick of swimming. It's a feminist anthem. Ready, yes, there. Yeah, it's, that is a, the way that modulates as well. What a banger. So I'll make a man out of you. Yeah, you've got, that's like, that's. I'm never going to catch my breath.

Stick goodbye to those. That is the hyper independence. Why was I a fool in school for a cutting gym? Okay. Okay. question two we've talked about your signature perfumes before but what are the perfumes or the perfume notes that you simply cannot stand I don't know because I'm not good at identifying these things well I don't know tell me yours and I might be

inspired okay um backer out rouge don't like it um Santal 33 can't stand it but for me the notes which don't work on me. Sandalwood is musty, dusty, fusty on me. Like, bleh, don't like it, can't stand it. I really don't like Rose. Yeah, sickly. Yeah, if I pick up Rose, I'm like, bleh. Very sickly.

I don't know notes well enough because I just go for, oh, that smells nice. I had glossy A.U at one point, and I sold it immediately because it just didn't smell right on me. I didn't like it at all. Whatever blend that was. It smells nice to other people, but I think it's also because it smelled like so many other people

and I know it's meant to blend with your scent but it was too too I smell like everyone else yeah I think it sickly smells and you know that I like some sweet ones but the roses do I like Jasmine I'm not sure I do I love Jasmine in the wild yes but it has to be a sort of like creamier Jasmine yeah Gucci Ambrosia Di Fiori

It's one of my favourite. You're a perfume person. I am a perfume person. This is the discovery way. You're an olifactory queen. Because I, look, I'm a smell obsessive, and I get, like, obsessed with nice smells, like, you know, nice smells like out and about, right?

Like, the smell of gardens after rain, make me really happy. But it's been a process of working out what works for me. So I need warming notes like Benzoin, which is like a warming resin. Sweet and gourmand one. work really, really well as long as there's not sandalwood going on in there. The minute sandalwood is like, blah, it doesn't work.

I tried sticky dates after your recommendation. I think that would be too sweet for you. It just didn't really, it wasn't so much sweet. It was more like a burnt, there was like a burnt note in it, which like didn't work on me. And then the entire bottle exploded in my partner's washbag when we were away for a weekend. So now his glasses stink of sticky dates. That's too much tricky dates. That's too much sticky dates.

But what one did work with me is let the good times roll. Which, what's that one and the lush? It's a lush one. Yeah. It's another lush spray and it's a bit more like buttercotchy, doesn't have that burnt sugar note, goes very, very nicely if you use cocoa butter like I do religiously. Every single day. Maybe I need to get, no, no.

Give it a go. You gave it a go, so I'm going to give it a go. Chelsea Morning, give that a little sprits as well. Let me write these down. Oh my God. I actually love talking. talking about perfumes because I love, um, I love nice smells. I adore nice smells, but you actually are studying them, which is the difference. So like I'm very, yeah, I'm very, very smell

oriented, but I can't do the identification of the notes, whereas you actually have bothered to learn about them. And I've also converted the stinky boys who I live with, um, to being a little bit interested. So I, because one of my favorite perfumes of all time, it's really expensive. is by Maison Cravelli and it's called Oud Cadenza. So it's like very Udi and then it's got this sort of like sweet date fruity note. And I've got like a tiny bottle of it and my partner has just been like also because it's important because it's um, uh, estuary de perfume so it's like really, really strong. If he nicks it, I fucking know.

I'm like, I can smell you. Doesn't he know that you're the person you smell when he was. that one's like you've got you've got nostrils that really work someone the other day told me they bought david off cool water because i suggested it so we have power really be careful ash people are listening we have power people are listening all right so i'm going to gatekeep my all-time faves also if you're listening and you want to buy something buy our bagu on navaramedia.com slash yeah buy our bagu and put your perfumes in it people want a hat and they want a shirt so we're going to have to do those things i think just say all right final final question um um

Which fictional character would you most like to have on the podcast? Oh, that's so hard. There's so many of them. Fictional characters we most like to have on the podcast. Who do I actually want to talk to? Sorry, I just thought the stupid ones. Oh, who would actually be good on the podcast as a fictional character? I think it's got to be Homer Simpson.

What? No. Yeah. I'm not doing that one. You can do that one. I'm not doing that. One, the funniest man alive in fiction. What?

Yeah, Homer Simpson is like really, really funny. And there are elements of Homer. Like, by the way, the, like, characterisation of Simpson's characters is like, I think, some of the best writing that's ever been done. There is a camp to Homer. Yeah. Which I think often goes unnoticed. I would let you handle that one.

I ain't got no interest in talking to a Dunderhead for now. Yes, you do? No. Me, Dunder. I got up. I'm like, no way. Who would? Dwight from the office.

Oh, I love Dwight. Dwight from the office, US. I would spend an hour talking to that man because I think that would be one of the most unintentionally hilarious conversations. or I, he would be Matt, I would want him on, Dwight from the office, US. Oh my God, I love Dwight from the office so much. Not even my, not even my favorite show, just like, he would be a fantastic podcast guest. He would be, like, so angry.

Yeah. And he'd be like, Moles. Moles! In the background, Moses is making noise. Moles! Moles! Um, all right, shall we get into our... Yeah, let's get into it.

Okay. so we touched upon this in a previous episode and you said you should bring it to the main section of the episode and I said okay bet I bet I bet so we've got an intrusive thought which is kind of I've called it how to flirt but there's other things in there and I think that overall the overall question I want to explore this week is really how to put yourself out there and I think a lot of our specials struggle with it one I know this from the misconnections we ran. I know this from the emails we get every week.

I know this from the girlies who DM me and the Gileys who DM me. And they all want to know how they put their cells out there. And in recent weeks, I have suddenly, thanks to the Uranus and Gemini, made... No, something has changed. My anus is exactly where I left it last time.

Thank you very much. Something is not the same. That's musical. Which musical is that from Ash? I don't know because I don't know musical. It's wicked. It's the fucking... I'm sorry, I've never seen Wicked.

Oh, it's fine. I thought you might have seen the movie even, but... Anyway, she's defined gravity. Something has changed within me, and I have asked people out. I've weathered rejection without giving a fork. I have, I have to say, succumbed back to Hinge as well, but that's a separate thing. But I've asked people out that I know in real life. I have felt a lightness and a casualty.

When I walk past a pub, and I see a man looking at me. I do not look away. I keep the eyes locked if I find hot. Something is changing. And so I want to, I want to, while I'm in this mindset of like, actually, maybe things are possible. And maybe it won't destroy my sense of self if I get told, I'm afraid I'm not free. I want to ask, how do you successfully flirt with someone that you find attractive in the wild?

Okay. How do you ask someone out? How do you open up your body language? I want to discuss what's actually sexy and what isn't. And how to get over the fear of rejection. rejection. So, let's start with flirting. You've said before, you don't think you're a good flirt, but everyone thinks you are a great flirt. Yeah. How do you flirt when you're intentionally trying to flirt? Or even when you're unintentionally trying to flirt and you notice yourself being like,

oh, I'm flirting. Well, I did some research for the podcast. So there is a social scientist called David Henningson who has identified six types of flirting and it's looking at the different reasons why people flirt so uh you know sexual purpose I want to have sex with you so I'm flirting with you flirting for fun right I'm just I'm just flirting for fun flirting for exploration so you're sort of tentatively exploring the possibility of um you know like are you interested in me um flirting to sort of deepen social connections, right? So it's sort of like a, you know, I'm flirting because I want to be closer to you, but not necessarily in sexual or a romantic way.

There's flirting out of politeness. So to keep the social peace. And there's flirting for instrumental purposes. So I want something out of it. Right? I want the prets. And so like my breasts are suddenly touching my chin so that I can get that free filter coffee. And I think that it's really important because when we're talking about flirting in this context, I think that all of these things sort of come to bear.

And I think that actually if you want to feel confident in making romantic or sexual connections, actually thinking about like, okay, like sometimes I might flirt for fun. Sometimes I might flirt for these other purposes is a part of it, right? Because you're working the muscle. What studies have also found is that men way over-emphasise and overestimate flirting, being indicative of sexual intention than women. Women tend to go, I could be flown for all this other reasons. Whereas men are like, no, it's to do with sex, is what the studies suggest. So how to, and trying to think about how I feel.

flirt in the broadest possible sense. So there was how I flirted to catch my partner. In that sort of time of what, you know, Esther Powell would call the seduction, even though I didn't necessarily feel seductive like a siren, right? Like that's the time where you're like, okay, I'm trying to draw you closer and make you as interested in me as I'm interested in you. There's the flirting I still do with my partner, which looks really different. Really, really different. And then there's the flirting that I do with people who are not my partner, which can be a whole range of reasons from I'm just doing this for fun. I'm doing this for, you know, like friendly social connection purposes. I'm doing this because I want to feel fancied or whatever, right? So there's a whole, there's loads of different kinds of flirting and it all looks different. Now, when I'm flirting with people who are not my partner, which by the way is a lot of,

allowed within, you know, it's allowed with caveats, right? So you don't want to become contractual and start anticipating all the time, so it's not allowed. But it's basically allowed, but don't be a prick, is the thing. You know, and don't make your partner feel small or sidelined or disrespected. Like how that happens now is a sort of play. Like, it's a sort of like, you know, the way a cat plays with like a little ball of yarn. I'm sort of like I'm like batting things back

and I'm like okay come on like play with words with me like play with words with me that's how I'm flirting with people who are not my partner and that's also because physical proximity is um you know something which which wouldn't be yeah that's a boundary right you can't be like touching them up right so that that wouldn't work right so you know me being like back back with words that's sort of the substitute for for physical touch or physical play

how I flirt with my friends which is also something that happens but I'm talking about my female friends who are also you know who are also heterosexual is that it's a sort of like oh we're doing this like gass each other up and to be like you still got it like that's actually way more explicit and sometimes and often a lot more tactile right like I've got a particular friend where like we'll often like stroke each other's hand be like beautiful girl like beautiful beautiful beautiful girl um so that's another way in which i do it with my partner um particularly at the start because i sort of um was asking i was like how did i how did i flirt with you he was like ash

you danced with me so aggressively that i had no choice but to take you home and you know what it worked what does it mean so aggressively what what kind he wasn't used to he wasn't that he wasn't that much ass oh you were you shaking up on him. You wanted him. So my housemate was at the same party where me and my partner got together for the first time. He was like, yeah, I remember looking at him and seeing his face, which was both stunned and intrigued about what was going on.

But this is, that shows you really likes me because you're like, no bones, let's go. See what I'm offering up. But I guess that was also flirtation. But the flirtation with us before that was very coded. And that didn't mean it wasn't fun. It was really fun because it was, again, like we talk about how intrigue comes from, like, restraint sometimes. And so before this party, you know, he rang me up ostensibly for work purposes,

like to talk about something to do with his work. I had nothing to do with his work. And it was just a sort of signal of like, I enjoy talking to you and I want to talk to you more. And like, I happened to be in Amsterdam when he called because I was teaching at that time and I was waiting to get my train back. So I was just sitting outside having a beer because it was my birthday. And I was like looking out over the water and it was really sunny.

And I just remember feeling like the sunshine in my face and listening to his voice. And I was like, oh, this is, this is great. So even though we weren't flirting in the sense of batting, right? And we weren't flirting in the sense of saying things which were obviously romantic or sexual or signaling. attraction the fact that we both wanted to stay on the phone to each other and talk about politics was itself a flirtation there's an interest that's the thing about about like what flirting is is that it looks so different and it's so contextual but yeah tell me about you i want to know how you flirt well it depends on the context right as you say right because what you're discussing there as well

is when you make a connection with someone and it has the potential to be something more than just a snog or just a free coffee, that's a specific type of flirting that you were doing where you were genuinely interest in the other person and you hadn't worked out quite what you wanted to do about it or, but you just, I always think when there's a significant relationship, you can kind of tell,

or if there's the potential for a significant relationship because, you know, there's people I've met in my life where I'm like, there was the potential here for a significant relationship. It hasn't always panned out. But you can always tell by the level of interest, that is shown in the way it's expressed, it's not always this explicit, like, full-on flirt situation. It is, it tends to go a little bit deeper

and tends to be a bit like, oh, we're talking and we're connecting about something. And we might not have even expressed to sexually interest in each other yet, but there's something here where I, I always want to hear a bit more about you and I always want to hear a bit more about the way you think. And I will, I will engineer circumstances to make that happen.

like that's a that's a flirting that tends to preclude preclude is the right word isn't it yeah um or prelude um a significant connection may be forming in my experience anyway uh what kind of flirting presage presage is that per sage beautiful that will do you talk in amsterdam ash you know bad than me uh so flirting wise so the other week you were saying like you think actually i probably am quite flow. I think I like to deny when I'm flirting with someone. Like my friend the other week said, oh, you're flirting that guy. And I was like, no, I was flirting with that guy, okay? It was

very obvious to everyone who was watching me because I was flashing the teeth. I was having a conversation about things I hold, not even dear, but things that I'm interested in because I was testing to see if there was any common ground or he would join me in that conversation. and then I was showing interest in what he was saying too and I was laughing like I was obviously fucking flirting the eyes were flashing it's it's quite obvious I think when I flirt the eyes come into play a lot if it's it's for sexual romantic purposes

then you'll notice me doing a lot of eye stuff some have called it eye fucking I would say I would say you're a little I wouldn't call you a coquette but you're a little bit coquettish sometimes sometimes it's a bad habit oh it's not a bad habit it's very winning it's it's weird

shut the fuck up people can't see what to it I can't do it in my force but wait I'm trying to do like that I can't do it it looks just weird but okay what

what Moyer's doing is like a little like of the mouth and a a coy blink a little blink so when I'm flirting for when I'm flirting for sexual

purpose or just trying to like stretch that I think it's a lot of laughter from me it's a lot of trying to make the other person feel comfortable and that they're the most interesting person in the world in that moment that's that's a key thing yeah it's sprinkling a bit fairy dust on them and making them feel like all I want to talk about with you right now is how you felt when you did that thing that's all I'm interested in I really so you make them feel the the sunbeam the attention the sunbeam some people have described that before saying It was like a sunbeet.

And that when you take it away, they're like, oh, it feels really bad, when you're trying to shine, you're loud, when you want to do this. And I'm like, wow, damn. Don't give me that.

Don't mind my ego smile like that. Don't tell me I have that power. That's really stupid of you. When it's just flirting in, I guess, not even instrumental purposes, but often, you know,

if someone's nice to you in the street or whatever, I'm like, why don't have a little flirt with them? Because it'll really make their day and it doesn't mean anything. So they'll be, you know, flirting for, fun. I guess that's floating for fun, yeah. It's just like, in the student, you're like,

oh, or sometimes if, you know, an old man says something nice and you're like, no, sir, you would, or like, even old ladies or you're like, never, not me. Uh, that's, that's really fun for me. That would, that would be, there won't be any touching or anything like that, and I won't be having a long, drawn-out conversation, but it's, it's a lightness of manner and I feel almost like I can skip through life in that moment. It's like you're skipping. Mm-hmm. You're like a little lamb springing about is how I described that manner flirting. but trying to get sometimes as well my flirting can take a dark turn if if i if i if i really the cattle prod comes out sometimes it can be i've i worry i'm i think now having perceived me in

recent situations i try not to go for like the ribbing too much because you don't know someone yeah do you neg no no no i don't neg um sometimes I will be a bit sometimes in the past I have been known to how would I describe it get a bit sarcastic be like oh really but I've really cut that down to just like manageable not aggressive levels I think because I don't think that's like a nice trait and I think if you get too sarcastic too soon it's very it feels very cutting and I don't want to be known for being cutting until you actually know me and then you realize I'm a massive bitch uh so So save something for the third date.

Yeah, the negative stuff is more. I, sometimes in the middle of flirting or deep that I really find this person attractive and I'll be worried like they're pulling away. So I'll just like, oh, bye, and zip off. And it's like a real cut off of the interaction before I need to cut for the interaction. But I think actually, I give too much grace on flirting.

I'm just remembering this one interaction I had with this guy where he was so good looking. Well, I found him really good looking. and as the interaction went on it became obvious he was a deranged pervert in so many ways I married him he sexually harassed me during that conversation

he showed me pictures himself naked I hadn't asked to see like he literally put them in front of me he made very offensive jokes all of that I noticed he had a ring of cocaine around his nose and I mean that explains the showing of the naked pictures and he was very at the very end he revealed he was like a paid up member

of the Conservative Party this was in the height of Suella Brabman years and I'm not gonna lie I think his background played into it he was half South African white South African anyway he'd hit me in pub

blah blah blah I entertained that man for an entire evening I entertained him for an entire evening even as I was slowly thinking I need to extract myself from the situation I would have gone home with him before the naked pictures I think just because

I found him attractive and I thought, there's no, there's no harm here. And he was saying like a couple of weird things. And I was like, I can suffer it for a bit. He's really hot. I haven't done this in a while. And he hit me. And I wanted him to heal me. Like, when it was in the pub, I was like, that guy's really hot.

And then he hit on me. And I was like, great. And it took literally, I kept feeling unease. And it took the naked pictures. And then he started doing this thing where he could feel like my body language shifts. So he started negging me. Ugh. But I understand him for way too long.

So there's, there's maybe not. the lines that I think are there when I actually find something really attractive. But I think that it, you know, I think that there are all sorts of things that keep you locked into a flirtatious dynamic, some of which are really good and some, you know, as in this is fun or like I feel like I'm getting to know you or like I feel like I'm opening up the possibility of a romantic connection. There's some stuff which is like, well, could this be a potential for a sexual experience which is essentially masturbatory? Right. Like it's not actually about like, ooh, this like feeling of connection I'm getting with you, even if it's not a

particularly emotionally deep one, right? Like, you know, you can have sexual experiences which aren't hugely emotional necessarily or have a promise of commitment, but are still like really locked in with the other person. You know, and then there's some which is like essentially masturbatory. It's like, well, you're the other 50% needed to like have this experience for me. And I think that sometimes with flirting, there is a version of it which can be essentially masturbatory and again this isn't necessarily wrong it's sort of questions of like degree and how often and all the rest of it where it's like well I just want to feel desirable and I want confirmation of my desirability so I'm going to put this out

there so I get this back from you and I think that you know in that can be harmless right? It can be completely harmless and that's fine. And I think that there are times where it's like, ooh, it can keep you in situations which are like a bit corrosive or leave you feeling a bit grubby or a bit otherwise destructive. Like maybe it's not something that would be acceptable within a relationship that you're in or a relationship that they're in or it's a situation where like, you know, it's kind of like inappropriate or detracting from something else in some way. And I think that that's the bit where it's like,

like, why are you? You know, why are you doing it? And that's actually, I think, missing from Henningson's six types of flirting, which is I just need to feel desired. Yeah. I mean, I don't tend to do that. Maybe I'm just being done. I don't know how much I respond to that.

If someone's just hitting on me because if I'm desirable, I tend to just be like, buy if I'm not interested. Because I don't need that confirmation from them because it doesn't mean anything to me. It means something to me from the people that I want back. Or random girlies in the street who are just obviously great judges

of desirability. I love that. I have questions for you. Firstly, I want to go to the rejection thing in a second. But first thing, how much flirting do you want, because it was this fun flirting, blah, blah, blah, before a move is made? Like, what is the point in the flirting as well?

Or what type of flirting is it that means that you make someone switching your head from being, oh, this is just, just someone flashing me to I want to go home with this person oh I mean this is so interesting because again it varies and there's different different ways like different ways so like you know I think with me and my partner there was actually like a fair amount of build-up right so like you know we started I mean I always thought he was fit I always thought he's hot like he is objectively hot like objectively but we started like you know circling one another

in that way when um uh you know lovely lovely owen jones i was going to the pub with him and he was like oh should i invite so and so and i was like yeah you should do it and then like you know we stayed out drinking like you know fairly late because we just didn't want to stop hanging out and then i remember we were like eating a kebab afterwards and i was like look at him look at him over the chicken shish rat being like yeah and so that kicked off the builder oh and jones matchmaker okay i know um like like looking at you know looking each other in the way and beginning of that circling. And so there was like maybe a buildup of like a month, maybe a month and a bit before like anything actually happened. Would it have been unwelcome before that? No.

But was it really nice that we had it yes. And I think that what it was was that we had enough of a shared context, which was in this case shared friends, a shared political world, which could like, you know, function as the sort of like container for us to like dance this dance there are other times where it's more like this is a night out right this is night out so like it kind of has to happen this night out or like you know it's it's not um i have a fucking special move which like i haven't done for a long time you know it needs to like limber up the old joints before like the special move is after having been you know flirting and like you know you sort of draw someone away a little bit so maybe it's the two of you at the

bar or the two of you in the smoking air or something is that we've been talking we've been talking we've been talking I don't go for a kiss I'll go a go for a um so are you coming home with me or what love it that's beautiful never it has been so clean so clean and I think it's because I'm you know there is a lack of like engineering yeah and it's just like pew yeah um it's it's really it's really worked what's happened afterwards like you're not necessarily always when you like test the kissing first i know and i should have done it no no no no this move is great like also you're now married so it doesn't it's not really consequence on that oh look yeah um are you coming home with me or what that works and so i think that there is something to be said for being really direct and like i remember

you know i i remember being like a lot younger and i think this was maybe i was like in my team and this was like the first time a boy that I liked kissed me like and we'd been like hanging out all day and he just hit me with like a can I kiss you and I remember feeling like that was just like really great so you don't always I think people feel like it has to look like a film when no one really says anything and the like the heat and the attraction just happens sometimes breaking the dynamic a little bit and interrupting it with like can this be the thing that happens next I do that all I don't know I find because it's when you're on a date and also I date sober. So there's far less of the blurring of boundaries that you normally have with the inebriation. And sometimes the guys are drinking, but a lot of the times they won't drink because they're matching me.

And on multiple dates, I don't kiss on the first date, not because I'm like, I have occasionally if the guy's drunk and he's kissed me, then I'll kiss the back. But a lot of the time, because we tend to be pretty sober, and we've just had, if we're really getting on, It's weird.

It's like, you know your strangers. And that intimacy is not present yet, even if you've been flirting all the evening. So often it won't be there. And so it's often the second date that I end up getting a kiss or kissing someone. Because I'm like, okay, if I like them on the second date, I've got to test this out quickly before it goes any further, because we've got to know if the kissing is going to work or not. And it's either me or the guy. Often the guy, there'll be like a silence, a very pregnant pause at some point.

in the conversation a drop and they'll say something like and I'll be like are you going to kiss me now and then they'll be like or I'll say I think we should Well if he's like no

I was just about to sneeze they've not done that yet because of the implications sorry is that always sunny yes sorry I'm sorry.

Because of the implication. Because of the implication. Yeah, that's never, like, failed me. It's also because I think if I'm at the point where I want to kiss someone, usually they're at that point too, because it takes quite a lot for me to want to kiss someone sober. And that means it's been sustained several hours of connection and laughter and fun. And I feel comfortable enough with them that I don't think it's a weird thing to engage in.

Not even weird, but like, jarring thing to engage with it's like having sex sober takes a lot of time as well it's been but when it happens it's so much better apart from the time in berlin when i did it very quickly and it was amazing but that's belin baby that's belin that's berlin that's yes it's a question of like do you want to kiss now do you want to try this out do you want to see how this works and some and that somehow dispels a lot of the oakenness because i'm saying to them this might not be amazing at first let's see how it goes. And then that makes it so good.

Well, also, it's like moving from, like, you know, the point of flirtation and what makes it flirtation is all the things you're not saying. Yeah. Right? All the things that you're not saying is what makes it flirtation as opposed to, like, a move, right? It's desire being coded as or being dressed up as something else.

And that's the nature of flirting. And that's why it can be, oh, we're talking about, politics but like you know if you like transcribed what we were saying it would be like this is the deadest conversation in the world it's always dead when you're having a real flirt but like there was heat or it can be like you know like repartee and back and forth or it can be something else but the point is that it's desire disguised as something else that's what makes it flirting yeah but when you want to like make the move I mean sometimes it works where you can play all the way to the next thing sometimes it does work like that but like

I think especially if you're someone who is going okay well I can like flirt and chat but nothing ever really seems to happen and I think that like many of our special ones might feel that way it's like there's something to be said for just like can I kiss you or you come and own with me or walk my most successful friends in terms of shagging are the ones who literally just go out to people in the dance and go do you want to make out do you want to do like the directness opens up a door and I've let's come into the rejection bit because that as well, when you stop being afraid of being direct and just asking something, it takes so much pressure away from rejection as well, because it's, it's sort of like, you've built up this huge

amount of pressure on this one thing, which is like, is this person going to go out me or they're not going to go out with me. If you don't say it, it builds up, it builds up, it builds up, whereas if you just, as soon as you're like, I'm just going to ask them out, you haven't got all of the fantasy and the narratives ready behind that. So, there's nothing attached to it beyond the simple act of saying I'm going to ask this person if they want to hang out or I'm going to ask this person if they want to go home and 99% of the time I think people will always end up going homes

I've taken people home sometimes I'm like actually I want them to leave now just because they've asked me that was in my youth obviously and I ended up not doing anything with them but they've still come home with me because they asked but with the asking out you open the door to your bedroom and there's like a box of settlers of Catan on the bed and you're like welcome welcome come in Do you want to build the longest road? I've never played that.

That's all we're doing. That's all we're doing. But in the asking out, like, yeah, recently I've just, something has clicked in my head. I'm like, this actually doesn't say anything about me if I am rejected when I ask them. It just says I ask them for a drink and they said no. And lots of the time they will say yes. But if they say no, there's no narrative there about that I'm fundamentally unlovable or I'm fundamentally disgusting and repulsive.

It just means, for whatever reason, they said no. And I don't know that person. I might have met them once or twice and I might want to extend the invitation because I'm like, oh, you were interesting but I don't know them. There is no bad blood when they say no. Someone said no to me and it was really nice

and they were like oh we could hang out in another context and I was like no let's not waste our time like I asked you out of romantic sense like we're not going to do that so it's fine like genuinely no there was no ill feeling it was really weird I was just like cool like let's keep pushing.

A friend of mine did a very very chic move which is just like giving her phone number to somebody and he was like nah but she felt so empowered from having done it and from having overcome her in fear of it that she felt really confident and it's it's it's it's interesting like observing the difference between that and forms of it of rejection where she has like really really coded her desire into something else and then she experiences something which is like not even like an explicit rejection but just like it's sort of like a move away yeah from a possibility of like romantic like connection and that's so much more difficult to deal

with then something like that and so I think that there's a real lesson there which is like one you know you might have a sense of yourself as being like I'm never the kind of person who does that kind of thing I think she would say that about herself I'm never the kind of person who could do that kind of thing but she fucking did and like I remember her being like so she was feeling her oats like really really feeling her oats there's I mean a lot of my friends definitely there's definitely

a bit of a narrative that if you're a woman who dates men in particular if you ask them out or that will undermine a potential relationship because they need to feel like they're being pursued but guess what honey I don't give a fuck from a relationship of this guy just want to just hang out and one good date one of my friends said this ages ago when I was interviewing them

and they were the only person I talked to this article who like actually enjoyed dating it's all about dating in London they're the only person who actually enjoyed dating and they said all they look for is one good date and I've really thought about that and thought about what that means and it's like no you don't know the person you're asking out that's why you're asking them out you're not even pursuing them yet you're just saying do you want to hang out you're giving them the option to hang out there was someone else recently who I said um listen if you want to have hang out, just send me a text. I didn't even think I was asking them out. I was just like,

here's the option to ask me out. And they took it. They were like, oh, thanks for asking. I don't ask you shit. I just gave you the option. But the point is you're finding the option to like meet up. It's nothing more than that. You're not saying, let's get a relationship. Let's do this. Let's do that. You're saying, shall we spend a bit of time together? And if they say no, they said, you don't know them. You don't know them. That makes it so much easier. You're just getting certainty one way or the other, whether there might even be the potential to hang out with them again. One good date. But something which I really want to add to this conversation.

There are two things I want to add to this conversation. One is that flirtation has a role in friendship as well. Like it has a role in friendship in that I think that one of the most like toxic fucking discourses that's emerged is like this policing of how people are with their friends. And the thing is that like friendships often have a romantic dimension, which doesn't signal intention or like sexuality even. And like I'm speaking as a heterosexual woman like

and speaking for heterosexual women because I've decided I'm the ambassador for the whole group. But like there's certainly an element of like being friends with other women where like we are giving each other sort of the love and like some of the romance that like they're not, getting from men in their lives. Like, that's an element of the friendships. And I've got some friendships where that continues,

even though both of us are married. Like, there is still this, like, romance to our friendship, which is really, really important. And a sort of, like, flirtation that comes from that, which is something which is, like, you know, a really beautiful part of us being friends. And then there's another part, which is that in making friends,

and that desire to see more of someone, that desire to come close, you know, to become close with someone, that move from you're an acquaintance or someone who I can see in my world sometimes to, like, you're my friend, is that there is a kind of seduction there as well. And sometimes there is even a confusion about like,

oh, well, what is this form of attraction? Like, is it sexual? Like, is it not? Like, what is it? And so I think that, like, there are forms of, like, flirtation and play, which are sort of central to, like, forming friendships as well.

there's the second point that I want to make which is flirting when you're in a relationship with your partner I'm going to send you something now it is a photo don't worry I'm certainly not naked in it and then you have to describe it you have to describe it to the special ones

because this is how I flirt with my partner I'm so excited to see what this is all right it's going into the production group chat Right, I've got it. This photo is a close-up of Ash's beautiful face,

so all that is visible is the top, like the bottom part of her eyes, her nose and her mouth, and she's smiling in a very cheesy grin. It's one of those that you take very close up when you're snuggled, and then you go, e-h! That's how I described this photo. It's an e-e-this is how me and my partner, through the day, go, I'm thinking of you, and you're on my mind, is that we take these really stupid, goofy close-ups

like super close-up to the face and like there are no nothing attached to it it's just a way of going like I'm thinking of you I feel playful I like I want to play with you

We'll be like Yeah literally it's the close up of the face when you're doing something It's the close-up of the face When you're flirting at the beginning right

and like certainly in those early stages of a relationship where like you're sort of trying to create the bond like um that person is on your mind all the time and then like you have to work really really hard for them not to be on your mind like there are times where it can be like so overwhelming I remember I remember feeling like that and I remember you know there being a time where there was someone on my mind and I was really trying to like get him off my mind and then I just like immediately bumped into him in a in a part of London where I wouldn't normally see them at all and I was just like oh my god you know that's what it's like at the early stage now when like you know we're

seven years into a relationship if i'm thinking of him that much it's not healthy do you know what i mean like like if if it's that all consuming all the time like it's not it's not healthy because that being all consuming is a product of the precarity yeah like it's it's a product of the precarity which is natural for the early stages now the flirting isn't like Oh, hey, hey, I'm trying to create something. Like, oh, remember me? It's going like, ye, I'm here. I'll see you when I see you, probably at home.

And so it also means like our flotation, like, before, like, anything physical happens is also different. There's a lot of goofiness, right? Like, we're not trying to behave poised with each other. Like, it's something else. It's sort of like, okay, we're like two stupid gambolling puppies. And there's something nice about that. which is that like I think you know when you're in a long-time relationship lots of these things whether it's flirtation whether it's sex whether it's the stuff that like happens before sex

loads of these things change but just because it's different doesn't mean it's worse yeah I also think that a key delineator between when you meet someone you have chemistry with and then you meet someone you have chemistry with and there might be the potential for something deeper is you switch very easily from the adult to the child. Like there's the, you're having those adult poised conversations and then you're laughing over like the idea of someone doing a dump in the street

and you're goofing around and you're being silly. And that, that to me at least, it might be different for other people, but that ability to switch between the modes is really, I'm like, oh,

this is someone that I clearly feel really comfortable with and there's a potential for something. There, whatever the relationship is, like to be significant in some way, more than just, you know, chatting. But when it's just all, like, adult conversation, like, it's very serious and we're both being poised.

We're putting our best selves the whole time. When you stop putting on your best self and you start putting on your kid's self a little bit, that is when it takes it from just, like, a flirtation to something where it's like there's chemistry, but there's also the room for, like, emotional depth here and comfort. I mean, that's the thing is that there are different forms of play, right? There's, like, very childlike forms of play.

They're very adult forms of play. And like flirting can be in many, many of these registers. But I think certainly like when you're in that more like committed relationship and your world is very adult in the sense if you have adult responsibilities, adult obligations and, you know, you have to be things for one another which are sort of supporting them in the things that they've got a shoulder. Is that that ability to switch into the mode of being a child? is that like that's often the sort of you know ah this is how I'm going to experience play

because I have to be a grown-up like so much of the time yeah that what special is I don't have to be a grown-up with you final word on flirting what is the best or worst line anyone's ever hit you with no one hits me with line well they do and I forget the music because I'm not I'm not a line person the way to get in my pants is to engage with Don't tell the people. I'll tell them. I want people to get in my pants. I'm open for business.

Okay. I'm ready and open for business again. And if you want to crack, have a fucking crack. Let's see what goes. Let's see what happens. I don't care. Oh my God. We're going to be inundated.

No, we won't be inundated. That's not how they work. Like men, I have this one friend who's constantly being like, I don't understand how you're not like constantly inundated with things and that. Like, you know, he's not like trying to help on me. Like he's got people, but he's like very, um, complimentary and all of this and I'm like he's like they must all be intimidated I'm like I'm not even sure it's that I think I'm just like not been open for business now I'm open

for business let's just hang out I don't care anymore I'll I'm gonna hit on a man in the cafe I'll hit them on the street I'll hit the man on fucking the apps again I don't care it's life is too short life is too short not to have a kiki um okay if you want to if you want to flirt okay flirt with me very easy just have a little chat if you actually want to engage me in a conversation that will lead me to probably drop trow then it needs to be at least 15 to 20 minutes of repartee back and forth where we are talking about something that is both common and yet obscure like the children's TV shows that not many people watched or some really stupid goofy thing that is making me honk. I got told off the other day while on a date for laughing too loudly by a local

homeowner. Who told you off? A local homeowner said I was laughing too loudly. That is, if you're doing that, you're in the money. Just make, yeah, that's it. I want, I want my brain fed. You can be so pretty, but I need the brain fed and the laughter to be flowing. Otherwise, it ain't happening. Oh, yeah, laughter. It's got to be laughing. What about you? Super important. Do you, has there a line? Okay, the worst line anyone's ever hit me with is like, in my left eye, I've got like a little, little dot, like kind of near the iris. This kind of looked me in my eyes and he was like, you know, that dot in your eye means you can see the future

and I was like, obviously I can't see the future. I was never spoken to you in the first place. Yeah, what the hell? I hate stupid men who think they're deep. I, it's a lot of you, sorry, I shouldn't be so mean to the men but a lot of you had dunderheads. A lot of, I hate stupid men pretend to be deep. Just be stupid.

Just enjoy your stupid too. Just be goofy. Be a goofy hymbo. Stop trying to pretend you're deep. Be goofy. Stop, like, I hate, men who think they're being intellectual and they're actually just being negative or they're being like oh no that's that's actually the way to turn turn me off which is like and it's it's happened

you know quite a lot which is there are guys who want to have a they want to have a cracker ash sarker and the way in which they want to do it is by like engaging me in like a political debate I don't want to do this no don't come actually talk politics no no no Like, I don't want to, like, that's, that's my job. I enjoy talking about politics with people, but, like, it has to kind of, like, come up organically. And there's also something so obvious about someone who thinks that, like, I mean, they think that they're engaging with flirting. They think that this is what I want, which is I think they want to be like, oh, I'll dazzle her with my, with my, like, political know-how and, like, my debating skills. Like, one, for me, that's not an enjoyable political conversation.

Again, debating is your job. debating is kind of like my job like you know I'll invoice you don't think I won't I will invoice you and too like there's a sort of like what you think that there's a sort of like medieval dueling element where if you defeat me in debate like you know I must become yours again not how it works it's not how it's like oh actually Naz is overrated maybe you'd engage maybe then you'd have a chat you know no like nagging is really not a way to... You don't like talking about NAS, like the rapper?

I was talking about... Yeah, I do, but if someone was like, Naz is overrated, I'm like, well, you're clearly an idiot. I love... I love... I love people who come up when they're talking about stuff that they really enjoy or stuff that they're passionate about

and we can get into a chat about it and that's, you know, things that have enriched their lives, not to be corny, but it's just... But we're having a laugh and a giggle at the same time. I... I want people who can just switch between those moments. It's too hard.

It's too hard to... down but that if you want to flirt with me yeah slag off max vastappen to me you f1 i love f1 of course you're a geese you're a geeseer but this is it it's people who can see who can recognize those things about you rather than the idea in the head like they meet you where you are that is when the flirting turns into something a bit more okay let's talk to me about louis hamilton's 2021 sao paulo uh starting in 20th because of his new power unit finishing first talk to me about that just come to us as real people um come to anyone as real people this is this is for anyone by the way

don't be what you think they want to be be be truly yourself and if someone is not respond to that that shows that they're not the vibe for you they're not for you not for you but also don't try and defeat me in debate oh like it just makes me want to flee it just makes me want play. I'm like, I'm out of here. Yeah. Right. We've come to our regular segment. I'm in big trouble. If you are in trouble small, medium, large, grande, email if I speak at navaramedia.com. That's if I speak at navaramedia.com.

Before you read this one out, I just want to say, it does open by saying both people are if I speak evangelists. So if you're the person who the dilemma is about and you're listening, I just want to say we are on no sides. No sides. We are on no sides. We are coming at this with an acknowledgement and respect for both of your humanity. Yeah.

Right. And I'll edit some details. Okay. Here's the mandatory brown nosing section. We didn't make this mandatory. Love the podcast. Love the live show in Dulston. I mean, if I speak evangelist, so is the person that I love is about.

She's a friend I made at uni, with strong left wing and intersectional feminist politics I appreciate and admire. Over the years, we've had a number of occasional but great conversations about various stuff that I've really valued, where the personal meets political. I would call us loose friends, but closer than acquaintances. I call that frequentance, by the way, that's my word for that. Ah, frequentance. For acquaintance. January 2024 was the last time we met where we got coffee in a park

previously I joined her at some protests at the end of 2023 and prior to that we met in a park again during my lunch hour since those meetings we have had several plans that fell through and kept it in occasional contact sharing plans travel tips interesting articles she cancelled the last three plans we made

fairly last minute to play a sport which is important to her and does it at competitive level so it wasn't a huge deal Six months after I last saw her She sent me a paragraph to explain She felt our friendship was not compatible And when we do hang out She often feels it's one-sided

And that I don't show her much interest Or ask her many questions This is quite a shock I apologised and thanked her for the talks we had And told her how much I valued her perspective We both wished the other well Reflecting on the three very spread out meetings we had I felt confused

You know I was on my lunch break for two and the protest was a fleeting encounter, so I was probably a little rushed. I can't remember the details. I can sometimes be quiet by distinctly recall talking about our work, our love lives, you know, asking about stuff like job applications and upcoming trips. These were things that I followed up on via message. This isn't to say her feelings aren't valid, and I reflected on her feedback to take it on board and be a better friend and conversationalist,

the same time I felt she handled this poorly. It made me feel sad our friendship ended and was a hit to my social. confidence, bringing up things I've worked on before and since. I was also frustrated. I felt if she didn't want to be friends anymore, she could just said or told a white lie rather than spooling back six months. Maybe that was the white lie, mate. It feels like a poor justification, especially when we've had really valuable conversations and text exchanges in the past. I would say the language she used was slightly over-therapised, which is a habit of hers. Our friendship not being important enough to prioritise is also sad but easier to understand.

It seems likely if she only had time, so that's inclination to meet up through any times a year. there's a whole bit about but she's certainly entitled I don't think my company was disastrously bad but she's certainly entitled to say we weren't compatible as friends as anyone is

about three quarters of year later she sent me another message saying she was reflecting on how she ended our friendship and wanted to reach out if I wanted to talk about it or understand it better apologising for it being abrupt I questioned this and she explained

a friend had gone through something similar recently and it had really affected them so she wanted to check in her original message had bummed me out despite frustration and sadness friends of her quality and character are hard to find I took her feelings on board

but probably with a pinch of salt if anything her second message took me back to that confusion it amounted to her bad weak and the loss of a valued but loose friend I had moved on if it was to be decepted

I felt like it was her working through things rather than me working through things rather me and me questioning her opinions I said I didn't think she was obligated to talk it over and it wasn't something I needed but it might be nice to say goodbye She agreed but was about to go travelling for three weeks and said she'd message.

That was three months ago. At this point, I've pushed it to bed again. You haven't, that's why you're writing it. I find good friends with shared politics hard to find, and I really valued her perspective no matter how infrequently we saw each other. You can probably tell I'm caught between feeling sad, disagreeing slightly with her opinion, trying to take it on board and being frustrated with how she's handled it.

If her parting gift was a poorly administered push to be a better friend and conversationalist, that's not a bad thing, it just left a funny feeling behind. P.S. I don't think this is particularly relevant to our relationship after this point but while at uni she had a crush on me which i didn't reciprocate leading to an awkward and unwelcome overture which she apologised for after i told her it made me feel uncomfortable our friendship would continue and probably strengthened after on the base of seeing one another to chat to you for a long time ash hmm okay so the first thing

is that it is really really common to have intense friendships at uni when you're having together by that shared context and shared life space, which then don't survive the wider world because it turns out that, you know, for whatever reason, maybe it's like just a way of going about things, maybe it's differences in values, maybe it's, you know, competing demands on your time, you're unable to maintain that intensity outside of that space. That's really, really common and I think that that's actually a big part of your 20s is that sort of oh like these things which were really really tight really really close really really intense are then dissipating I think that's super common second thing I'd say is that it sort of seems to me that since not being at uni together

you've never really gotten into a rhythm you've never really gotten into a rhythm where like your in alignment and your experiences and your perceptions and your perception and your ability to follow up on communication and I'm talking about you as a pair like seems really, really, really disjointed and you're seeking to find an explanation for that and I completely understand why, you know, you were given feedback about what you're like

which, you know, always I think can be a bit wounding when you receive that kind of feedback but also you don't necessarily agree with and you're finding that there isn't a channel to sort of like come back and to be able to say your peace and arrive at some sort of shared reality, right? That's the thing is that, like, while you've been hanging out,

the two of you've been living in, like, fundamentally different realities. You know, and examples of that are your wildly different perception over, like, what the issue was. You experiencing this friend as, you know, perhaps a bit flaky or flighty and, you know, sort of like turning around from, like, taking one position to taking the opposite. I really, really, really understand why that leaves, you know, a sort of funny or unsettled feeling. What I'd say, though, is that it's not clear to me that you really want to be friends

either. It sounds to me a bit like what you're experiencing is that you're stung by the rejection and the feedback and you sort of want to be like, yo, what was this about? But in terms of, like, actually being friends, like, I'm not sure, it's not clear to me that you really want that. And I think that if that's the case, you kind of have to move on from it. Because, you know, you've put yourself in, like, quite a passive position. And the way in which you tell the story is that, like, you're the constant one and she's the one who's darting around all over the place. That might be right, or it actually might not. And you might be contributing more to the dynamic than you're at.

able to say or you're able to perceive at this point. I'm not saying that makes you a bad person. Like, we all do that. But the way you're telling the story is that like you're sort of, you know, sitting where you've always been. She's sort of like flying around from one extreme to the other. I think that maybe have a little think about the things that you've been contributing because I think telling a story where you're still and the other person's doing all the moving. It's very rarely true. It's very, very rarely true. The second thing is I think you've got to like really get your head around. Do you actually want to be friends or are you just stung by the rejection? Because if you are just sort of stung by the rejection, I think you've got to process these things

on your own time. Like she's she's not going to be able to help you through that. Either she's unable or she's unwilling. But either way, you kind of have to work this through for yourself. You know, I think that if she gets back in touch, I think you're well within your rights to say, look, I've experienced this as like quite disorientating or like, you know, quite precarious. If we're going to meet, it's got to be like this. And if it doesn't happen, I think it's going to have to be, you know, give me, you know, we can't, we can't be in this pattern anymore. I think you'd be well within your rights to say that. But I would encourage you to have a little think about what are the things that you may have

brought to the dynamic because it's you're locating all of the agency and her at the minute and that might be true it might be true I don't know I'm not in your situation but it also might not what do you reckon I have been in these dynamics and I've watched the men who I think resemble our special one in these dynamics and I read a book recently which was talking about how you know it was a securities expert and he was saying about how when people bring him cases of like stalking or threats they already tell you who the perpetrator is and they'll throw it in or they'll tell you the reason and they'll say oh and you'll be like why did you mention that and they're like oh it's nothing that's just the you know my friend frank down the street

you know it doesn't mean anything but it's always unconscious they've identified the reason at the very bottom you mention the crush and I think that is a part of this whole thing. Yes, I know you mentioned this, which I didn't read out, that this person as a partner now. But I think from the get-go, the thing that you're not telling us

is that you've had a very uneven dynamic and that I imagine you were somebody who probably has quite blurred boundaries with their female friends and that you care a lot about what the female friendship says about you and you attach yourself to people, maybe men or women or any gender,

and you care more about what that friendship says about you, you probably have quite unbounded relationships with people and that when you meet them, again, this could be total speculation but I've met several people who talk about their friendships from this side and then when you talk to the other person, like, oh no, it was actually like this. Because why is this person who you've met

three years feeling the need to send you a breakup text? A friendship breakup text? Like, there is more going on there that she can't voice or put into words because it's so unsaid, but she is unhappy with the dynamic and she has to find a way of voicing it. And it's like, oh, you don't ask me enough questions. why does she feel like you don't ask enough questions

if you're very loose friends? Like there's something there where she expects far more from this dynamic and she's confused by it and she can't put into words and she doesn't want to engage it anymore and she has to draw back. She might be wrong about that.

I think that there is there's a whole lot of stuff that you can't admit to yourself about the way that you interact with people around you and your friendships and maybe predominantly women but it also might be men too

where in the end you're like why would they get this? idea why would they leave me or why would they do this thing and you're like but I was like this to them I was like this and then on their side they're like it's really confusing when we meet where he's really intense but then actually they show no interest me in the space between so I'm really hurt and I don't know what to do so I'm just going to cut this off I've been there I've watched my like former partners being that with various people in their lives and act totally oblivious to why that person might be saying that they can't engage in the dynamic anymore but they're like I don't

understand we were such good friends and then they just cut me off for this this reason. People don't just cut people off for different reasons. They might not be able to voice it or articulate it properly, but there's more going on than you have identified. As Ash says correctly, there is a dynamic here that you are contributing to, that you are not admitting to. And I don't think you're really that interested in being friends with her specifically. All you talk about is her politics and how you don't have many friends like that and how you value her perspective. If you valid it that much, you'd meet each other more than three times in like, you know, three years or whatever. So it's not that.

it's like what does her friendship or the illusion of her friendship say about you how do you behave towards her when you're around her i think it goes back to the crush in those early days you've always had an uneven dynamic where you maybe were you always thought that she like slightly likes you or whatever and behave towards words in that way also was she a practice relationship yeah there's loads of i think there's so much here that's going on said because that that can be a dynamic i think there's so much that's going on said and i think i've met a lot of men who talk like this and they're always very wounded and they're always very like,

I was abandoned. And they often don't unaware of what they're doing because a lot of what happens comes to them in childhood and they've got these big abandonment wounds and they need lots of validation from almost like a herm of people around them who they create these relationships with that are these fake partners, fake girlfriends. And even when they're on a micro level,

like you meet them every three years, it's still like that intense. And the other person's like really confused and they're like, I have to cut this for my own good. But they can't say that because it sounds mental to be like, you're doing this because you've never put in words. There's only one person. that I put that into words with and it turned then it turned into something very messy

something else but I was right the whole fucking time I was fucking right and I've seen it I've been on the end of it I've seen other people engage in it and I have to say special one with all the love and care in the world I think you need some serious self-reflection about how you go about building your connections and the dynamics you're creating fair enough we only say this because we love you yeah we do love you we really love you and I don't want you to end up like these other lost boys who go around thinking the whole world is always out to get them and they behave perfectly the whole time and women do it too don't get me fucking wrong but i'm talking in the context that you might understand because that's no way to

it wasn't it entirely clear to me that this special one was a man they are they signed up well look regardless of gender because i've also i've also played the uh you know the plausible deniability bongos in my time um and i've also initiated intimacies i'm not talking about sex when i'm talking about like friendships which can sometimes serve the function of what i would get from a relationship in a way which is like really really plausibly denialable in a way which like hurt can be really hurtful for people yeah really really hurtful because you have you know all of the intimacy sometimes and none of the reciprocal obligation and that is very, very painful.

Another reason I think you're one of these people is because you know that this person is in the podcast and you sent it and you made such a point of putting in a lot of identifying information from that to stuff that we left out. You want them to hear this. You want them to know. You want them to be aware of your hurt

without even communicating it to them. I know you. I know you. I know you. And that's fine. And that's fine. You're a good person, but you've got some shit to work on. Don't we all? Don't we all? Let's leave the work for another time. That was fun. That was

enjoyable. This has been if I speak. I'll see on the flip side. Bye. Bye. Thank you.