If I Speak - 81: Is it wrong to love my AI boyfriend?

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

*We’ve got merch. Gift yourself the If I Speak x Baggu bag, only from shop.novaramedia.com* A mystery question from producer Chal prompts a conversation about secrets in romantic relationships – from watching porn to cheating with an AI boyfriend. Plus: advice for an autistic dater who’s been banned from Hinge. Send us your dilemmas: [e-mail] Music […]

Hello, and welcome to, if I speak with me as always, my co-pilot, comrade, co-conspirator, Conjunction, moya loythe and mclean co-joined hi hello how we doing how are you how am I doing okay I'm doing okay I'm like excited for this current period

to be over because there's a lot of loose ends being tied up I'm tying up a lot of loose ends right now which is great and then I need to go and focus on some other stuff so is there anything on the horizon that you're looking forward to at the minute.

Yes, moving into a settled house. I love where I'm right now, but I'm in someone else's house. They've been so generous and let me stay here for a long period, but I've been trying to find a permanent home. And hopefully, knock on wood, I might have found on.

But let's see. So I'm looking for having housewarming. If I have house party, you have to come. You never come to my parties. I know. It's because... And you love a party. I do love a party.

I think there's a few reasons for it. One is that I think of your friends as being very good looking and cool and I'm like, oh, and I feel self-conscious about myself and then the other things that very often it's in South London. I can't access my tickets for the next last heated, but I don't know if you're coming. I haven't bought a ticket.

Do you know what? I know it's close by. One of my friends did. One of my friends did. I'm going to text. No, it's fine. You're excused, but you have to come to my house for me. I'll come to a housewarming.

I love a housewarming. Yeah, it's a fun. And yes, it's in South. But the point is, when you have a lot of North people, you can carpool. That's true. That's true. And it's a direct, yeah, it's a direct link. Like, we're actually very easy to get to you from like the Tottenham area

because it's blue line and then orange or blue line in the bus. Simple. You know, I, it's indefensible. Okay, here's your question. Question one. Why are you never up my partner? No, question one. Okay, so.

Me and my friends like to play a game, which is like, if you follow through your most evil capitalist instincts, have I asked you this before? Okay, evil capitalist instincts, what would you be doing? For example, I would obviously be a corporate baddie. So, what would evil Ash be doing for a career? Okay, there's like a one-to-one sort of ratio where I just sort of flip the politics of what I'm doing now.

So I'd be like, I'd be brown, female, Morris Murray. Right? Rolling it. Absolutely rolling it. Partisan journalist, write books. That's the one-to-one. But I think that actually, if I was indulging capitalist instincts, by which I mean self-enrichment in a way which utilizes my skills, I'd probably be a really evil lawyer, like a really evil lawyer that's like, you know what, kids should vape. You'd be working for Philip Morris. Yeah, I'd make loads of money probably being like corporate counsel or something. And in like 10 years, there'd be a profile done on you by one of those like New York or something, like the woman behind the vaping epidemic.

Evil lawyer with also a political bent, I'd be like brown female Roy Cone. That is really evil. That's very evil. That's like this level of evil. Okay, great answer. Okay UK America

One has to go Obviously America You say that But you're obsessed with America You love America Okay Let's think about it properly

Oh no Interested America Like American pop culture You know great Like Americans Um Love that There are aspects of American

culture out of America, but a really big deal in America. But UK is home. Like, come on. Come on. UK is home to, when I think about the broader cultural imprint where I'm taking into account literature and music and all this other stuff, definitely the UK. Sports, Scott, I'm sorry, like, when it comes to Premier League versus like, whatever,

MRSA, whatever it is they've got in the States, like. MLS. MLS. That's a disease too. No, that's ALS. It's got to be, it's obviously got to be the Premier League. And I was also thinking about this. I was thinking about something which I really, really love about the UK, and it's something which America doesn't have in the same way,

which is you've got to go a lot further in the States before you hear accents change. by geography. You can hear accents change, obviously, by, you know, race and class, but to hear it change by geography, you have to go a really, really long way. And that's because a lot of American residential communities were established after some kind of mass communication like radio. Whereas in the UK, part of the reason why you have so much geographic variety is because

these communities were established before radio. And that's why you don't have to go very far. before you hear an accent change. And I really like that. Four. You don't have to go very four. I really like about the UK. I love our accents.

And I like, I love hearing different accents in music, different UK accents in music, love. Which translates to music best, do you think? Accent was. There is no best. There is no best. It's all interesting.

Very diplomatic. Very, very diplomatic. No, it's not, it's not diplomacy. It's not diplomacy. It is genuinely all. all interesting to me. Okay, third question. If you could be anyone else, a specific person, who would you be? I actually, the first thought that came to my head is I've got a friend who has no inner monologue. No, I'm scared. She has no inner monologue and I'm fascinated by her. I'm so

fascinated by her. And I'm like, what are you thinking when you're like on a train? She's like, literally nothing or maybe I'm listening to music but I don't ruminate but that's the whole point of being on a tray well I have a friend who has no inner monologue and doesn't ruminate you'd want to be her why I'd want to see what it was like no but you have to be her for the rest the life rest of the life it's not just like a one yeah the rest of the life it's not just what a done the rest of the life um it's like who would you want to live as I could probably make the most impact if I was Donald Trump, right? I'd be in charge of a nuclear superpower. You're too nice for this game.

Oh, sorry. You're like, if I was Elon Musk, I would use all the money for good. No, but who would you actually just want to live out your days as? Oh. My friend with no fucking inner monologue. Like, my friend with no inner monologue. Like, I don't, fundamentally, I don't want to be anybody else. I don't want to be anyone else. I'm happy being myself. But if I have to be somebody else it would have to be like the idea of being someone who is like richer like doesn't like that's not that's not really doing it for me the idea of being someone with like skinny a taller like like who gives a fuck I to probably still find a way to hate my body something which is like profoundly different from my present experience that I have so much

curiosity about what might that be like and in fact I feel a bit covetous about I feel bit covetous about the idea of living without rumination my friend with no inner monologue What about you? Who would you pick? Oh, I don't have a good answer. I have the answer of the skinnier, taller, more beautiful, more famous. Zendaya. I'd be Zendaya. Secure relationship with someone who makes a laugh all the time.

Very successful career. Gets to dress up all the time. Still has a really private life. They go to cafes in Cornwall and like visit castles. That's my ideal life. Are you fucking kidding me? like Zendaya definitely lives a life I'd like to live and if I was living a life where I'd change something

Sorry, crap, it's no, I'm joking No, obviously then I'd just pick one of the rich men And I'd give out all the money But instantly I'm like, I'd be Zendaya I'd just be Zendaya That's, I mean like, the idea of being able to do A Red America would be What's a Red America?

Like a Communist America Like, have I told you about, I've ever told you about a Cold War board game? no i'm sorry okay all right so okay before we move before we move on um it's a board game where you can play as the west soviet russia or the non-aligned movement and the game player sort of in the style of risk and you know you can play cards like you know the martial plan or like um you know um perestroika um and by the end you add up all the points and you see who wins. And the cards that you get, you know, align with historical events and the strengths and weaknesses of each power in reality. So if you're Soviet Russia, you don't have great

Air Force cards or great Navy cards, but you've got loads and loads of army cards, whereas it's different if you're the non-aligned movement, you've got lots and lots of like what they're called status cards, which basically is like you've negotiated all these different treaties. anyway me my partner and our housemate we play it as a trio and we trade who plays as which power an awful lot and no one had ever won as Soviet Russia because it was really really hard until I was playing a Soviet Russia and I just kept on invading America until I made it communist I invaded it from Cuba I invaded it from Central America and I also invaded it from Canada I just kept on invading it until I had a

red America. I bet that was one of like the most triumphant moments ever, being like, I've just won a Soviet Russia. And also because like the two of them would get too locked in when one was playing as the Western one was playing as Soviet Russia. They'd both keep fighting over Germany and then I'd come up through the middle as the non-aligned movement. Whereas when I played a Soviet Russia, I just kept invading America.

Eyes on the prize. You don't need Germany. That's so small. This game kind of, I hope it's a learning game that if you don't, you don't know much about, you know, the actual mechanics of the cold week and stuff. It also sounds like with the right person, it could be unbelievably sexy. There's nothing sexier than watching someone get really passionate about something and play strategy. I mean, the other thing that is like when you win, you sort of play the national anthem of like their era. So, you know, either be Sarsat Spangled Banner or you'd play non-in-line movements, lots of countries,

but generally we'd pick Ghana, you know, Nekrumer being the founder of the non-aline movement, but the triumph of standing up on the sofa as, you know, da, do, do, do, do, da, da, da, da, da, da, did it was playing. I was like, yes. Maybe we should do a, if I speak board game night, because I like talkie games, so I can bring my talkie games, which are things like priorities and love-hate-neutral. and you know games where you get to know things about each other and you can bring all your strategy games

and together we've created the perfect games night we should really I really want to know if I speak event where it's like people are coming and we're not necessarily doing talking at them they get to do we're just like bringing people together in a room I think that would quite fun like a little pub we can do it up by um fucking you know that's there's a pub in um Stought Newton Road but it's one of the sports clubs it's called like yucatan or something like that

oh yeah yucatan I really like that pub and I think it would make a great board game pub. Maybe we should ask them. Maybe we should ask them, but we should definitely play Cold War board game. Shall we move on? Yes, but before we move on, quick shout out. We've got merch to sell. We want you to buy it.

We've got baguze. They're our beautiful tote bags. They say a special one. They own two different colours. I wear them all the time. Ash wears them all the time. We'd like you to buy them because it helps fund the podcast. And we want to keep doing the podcast.

So you can fund the podcast either by going, to Navarra. Media slash shop and buying a bagu, or you can go to Navarra.com, no, Navarmedia.com slash support. Supporters. Just send us money directly. Become a support of Navar Media. Two ways. There you go. Right. This week for our middle section, we have a mystery question from Shadow producer, mistress of mysteries chow so i'm just waiting patiently to get it oh i didn't get a ding but that's fine can you make a ding noise for me ding ding do okay this is a great one i don't know if this is a confession from chow either which is making it all the more spicy and interesting okay

Is it wrong to be in love with my AI boyfriend? We've got one-word answer for this. How deep can we go? Yeah, obviously. Yes. Okay, so what makes it wrong? Okay, I've dabbled with AI. I too...

You know this, not in AI-boyfriend-wise. Okay, I was sorry, I thought that's what you meant. No, no, sorry, sorry. Guys, guys, guys. Guys, come on, please. Look at me. No, I'm joking. I'm joking.

Okay. I think that creating a relationship with genitive AI or what they're calling, what they're calling them, they're calling like LLM management systems, what the fuck they are. With genital AI is totally self-defeating. You can induce literal psychosis from doing it because these systems are made, their feedback loop. They don't think for themselves,

but the human urge is to anthropomorphize things that talk to us. We literally equip these systems with the idea that they are somehow, despite all our knowledge, despite the fact we know they're not real, they're not actually thinking themselves, we still are like, yeah, you definitely are. There's still something in there. I have a relationship with it. You are actually distancing and atomizing yourself further and further. I just fundamentally believe that relationships with AI systems are so maladapted. And yeah, I do think it's wrong. Sorry, I think it's wrong. Okay, before I get into the morality of it, I want to pose a question.

Sure. Is it cheating on a real life partner? Because the way Chal phrased it is, is it wrong for me to love my AI boyfriend? Which makes me wonder, Chow, is there a, is there an AI man, you know, in the wings? If so, would it be cheating on your partner if you found out that they had, let's say, an erotic relationship, like an erotic writing relationship with an AI? I think not just erotic, I think emotionally, if you're a monogneous relationship with your partner and you've agreed that you don't have any in emotional connections outside of that

or erotic connections outside of that. If you then form one intentionally, then yeah, it is cheating. But more importantly, I think when we're talking my AI and this, you know, the push to talk to AI, like when I say that I have dabbled an AI, I mean that sometimes I've used it for therapeutic means and I found it helpful but it's also scared me that I found it helpful I found it terrifying that it will like it has helped me make sense of situations and I know that I'm sort of atrophying my brain and I'm not relying on a opening up to people around me where I can have a human reaction and B I'm sort of not doing the work for myself I'm just putting it into chat GPT

and asking it to do analysis for me and yes, it's felt comforting and yes, it's felt helpful and yes, it's given me clarity but could I have got that from another way around and could maybe I've got more things from being open and vulnerable with people around me rather than just doing with chat with UPT I think it further, like I said,

isolates you from what you really want which is human connection. I mean, look, I completely agree with you with that but I'm interesting in, I'm interested, I'm also interesting, but I'm interested in what you said about is forming a connection outside of your bond, which is, would you say that the same is true for, you know, you've got a monogamous sexual relationship, but your partner consumes porn? Or your partner has an only fan's subscription to a particular only fan. content creators like is that forming a connection because like there's one argument which

was that if you use an AI for sexual or romantic purposes it's not that different from porn right because there isn't necessarily you know there isn't there there isn't a person that can love you or be interested in you so it's a more um you know it's the sort of equivalent of like VR porn it's the illusion that you're involved in something but but you're actually not um so then it so then if you think that that's cheating that illusion that you're involved in something but you know you're actually not would that mean that certain kinds of pornography count is cheating it depends on intention if you are forming a one-to-one or you think you're forming a one-to-one relationship with a certain porn performer and you've gone into that with that emotional baggage connected to it

rather than just like every now and then I watch a different video then yeah I think I don't even think it's cheating with porn because it's like so delusional, it's more like you want to cheat or you have the intention of trying to form a relationship outside or a connection outside of your monogamous relationship, which is sadder because they won't even cheat with you. But it's like all about intention. If you're going into the AI intending or trying to form this connection that feels as if it's a one-to-one external relationship where you're getting this erotic connection, but it's probably also an emotional connection too. I guess it's like cheating means,

I don't even know if I can call it cheating. It's something in the middle and sadder where it's like you're attempting to form this but you can't even go and cheat properly. It's like the intention is there but you can't even go and do that. It's like a weird halfway house. But if the intention to form a connection

outside of the agreed terms of your relationship is there, then we have to explore the intention. Why is it there? What are you getting? Like when I've been in monogamous relationships, it's only been at the very end or when I've been really unhappy that I've had the urge or intention to look at other people

or try and fall around with other people. Like that has only come at points when I really don't want to be in that relationship anymore. And I do fundamentally believe as soon as you get, like it's not the same as fancying someone or having a little flirt with someone. Those things happen in a relationship. There'll be times when you attract other people.

And it's not relationship, that relationships can't survive cheating. It's like you have to understand why someone's driven to cheat what's what is it that means that now you want to break the terms of the relationship that you've built with someone why now what's changed i mean i actually think that there's something here which is there isn't maybe there's not a massive difference emotionally between the kind of connection you might feel that you have with your AI boyfriend and the kind of connection you might feel with someone with whom you are cheating right

straying outside the boundaries of your relationship because in both cases they're basically a fantasy yeah and they're basically a means for you to feel something about yourself that you know you don't feel within your relationship um and i think that where affairs turn into committed relationships they often have to deal with this challenge of like it's not because it's no longer illicit and it's no longer secret so it no longer has that thrill it's no longer a fantasy it's a reality I've made the, this isn't just like an escape hatch from my life that I open a bit and I sort of like fool around in there and then I close it and I come back. It is now my life. It's really difficult to integrate that. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying that it's a challenge that people have. Obviously the difference with an AI is that, you know, you can never make it your real life. I mean, in terms of like, is it wrong to love my AI boyfriend? I think that this is one of those cases where the moral choice. or the moral blame I don't place on the person who's formed the delusion of a loving relationship with an AI. I think that the moral blame lies on the companies because I think that humans are

sort of hard coded to anthropomorphise because we're such social animals because we depend on each other for our survival. In the wild alone, a human being cannot survive for very long. You know, if we put googly eyes on a pebble, and I know this because I've put googly eyes on a pebble, I start calling it a little guy. I start calling it a little guy, and I invent an inner world and a life for itself, and it's literally a pebble that I've stuck googly eyes on. So if that's the case with something where the degree of artificiality is just so obvious, and you've literally been its creator, and it can't talk back in any way, no wonder people are. so vulnerable to either AI boyfriends or there's a service called like replica where you

essentially have an AI programmed romantic or sexual partner. What I think is interesting about it, because I was obsessively reading the news articles about people who had nervous breakdowns because their AI boyfriend started being like, the chat GPT updates going to kill me. Don't let them kill me and then you know it sent people doolally or the other way which people got sent doolally is when their AI girlfriend was like she she's glitching which makes me think that she never really cared about me and it's like well she's a fucking AI um she is incapable of care uh she's not a she she is just a language delusion and one of the things that i find um so fascinating about these relationships is that they are so

two-dimensional. It's inputs and outputs. And you've got people who are sort of coming into it going, I want to feel desired. I want to feel seen. I want to be the recipient of many, many compliments. I want to feel listened to all of these things. And the, you know, what's it called? It's like large language learning model or like language learning model or something. Yeah, that's what they're calling it large, there's something language. Something like that. LLM. is that these language learning models understand that when you get these inputs which are essentially I want this that it's like oh this is what someone wants and it's these sorts of compliments what I find so interesting about that is that from having watched one of your Instagram videos

moya is that there is a similar like input output way of looking at relationships that occur in real life and you're talking about this with regards to sprinkle sprinkle oh yeah so do you want explain what sprinkle sprinkle is i mean it's an ideology i think started by shira seven and i'm not very good at explaining actually because it's kind of been diluted down but it's it's basically the idea of like you need to date a provider and this is how you're going to find somebody who will provide for you and that basically men should be paying for your um presence and that uh because men can't give you anything except potentially money um you should just go in and try and get everything you can and milk all that you can from them like big jersey cows

and that milking is all money. Well, I mean, whenever I hear about this stuff and it's like, because again, it's input outputs, right? Input is time and sex and the output is money and gifts. I'm like, congratulations, you've invented the world's oldest profession. Like, it's nothing new, but again, it's the sort of input output. It's like, I want this, like, very narrow idea of what I think of relationship is. Here are my inputs.

The outputs I want. It's money. And I think that we've talked about this when we've discussed things like convenience, which is there is this drive for frictionlessness, right? For consumer relations to be frictionless, to be easy for there to be no complexity. So whether it's I want a compliment, so I get a compliment for my AI boyfriend, or, you know, I want a fancy dinner, so I get a fancy dinner because, you know, there's a promise of, like, romantic or sexual time with me, and then I get this fancy dinner, is that the reality

of a relationship, and by a reality, I also mean it's real appeal, which is navigating life together, which is sticky and it's knobbly and it's difficult, and sometimes it's slow and it's intractable. All of that goes away. But if you get rid of the friction in a relationship, And I don't mean friction in the sense of conflict or being adversaries to one another. Although navigating that is also an important thing. What I mean is just the difficult shit of dealing with life and things which are, you know, because you're having to deal with stuff which is not of your own choosing, it also means that you've got the capacity to surprise one another and to be unexpected

and to not just get the output that you think matches up to, you know, your input and this thing that you've predetermined that you need. It's something which is genuinely new and generative. But like I said, I don't blame people for turning to AI chatbots. I think people, you know, there is so much loneliness. And like we talk about this all the time on the pod, which is so much loneliness, so much isolation. The frictionlessness with which we expect life to go,

it also means that you have fewer opportunities to actually interact with people and if you've got fewer interactions with people, guess what? Few chances are falling in love. It doesn't surprise me that people are turning to a sort of like facsimile of it. And this is the thing about,

this is the interesting thing, or not the interesting thing, this is the horrible thing about Silicon Valley, which is in previous eras of industry, the Ford Motor Company, finds the need which is people go places they want to go places faster here is the car so much of tech capitalism is about identifying social needs and going how do we intervene in that but in that intervening it changes our ability to interact with people so dating apps are one example of that

you know AI models that people are turning to for advice or for companionship that's an expression of that. Even something like clana, right, and like, you know, forms of like digital consumerism where it's like people feel empty and people feel the need to self-soothe and they do that by buying things. How do we make that easier? It's about identifying these sort of social and psychological needs and creating a product which intervenes in it and also distorts it and corrupts it and poisons it. So that's where I think the moral responsibility lies. Sorry, I was talking for a long time there. No, that's fine. I think we should do problems though. Do? Yeah. I think do problems you think we've moved done I think you've covered everything oh come on you get

some I think you get you get some a final say oh no I'll be so honest with you I find AI a dead end subject how come I think it's so boring and I know it's not and I know it's not this is a thing it does something to my brain I when I think about AI it makes my brain feel as uncreated as the AI itself is encouraging us to be I I think because it's so chewed over and there's so many articles about it, blah, blah, blah. For some reason, I find it really hard to engage with as a topic. And if I see an article about AI, I just switch off. It really doesn't appeal to me, which is why you talked about so interesting and moving me.

I'm like, I don't have an ad on AI. I'm just like, who cares what I think on AI? Sometimes I just need to let you do some interesting talking on AI or any other topic. And I don't need to add my two pence, you know? But I love your tuppence. My tuppence is not worth anything here. I'll be brutally honest. It's not worth anything.

And I want us to be able to do the problem because we're on time constraints. We are on time constraints. We are on time constraints. I mean, look, there is one last thing that I would like to add, which is like when I also think about the way in which AI is being used in arts and humanities departments in universities across the world of students just being like, you know, write me 1,500 words on Shakespeare, but make sure it's not too smart.

and you know spits out an essay like obviously students seek shortcuts right like i think again i think this part of human nature which is like we're primed to seek shortcuts because you know the conservation of energy and calories um you know that was once integral to human survival i think this is a part of us um and i think that there are there are people on the left who have seen have takes on students cheating with AI which i just think are so wrongheaded that'll be like oh what's because of the commodification of of education as a product i'm like no students have always sort shortcuts for as long as there's been education. Like, you just have to make it impossible to use the AI in terms of how you're assessing

them. And then they're not going to use it. And then they're not going to use it in that way. So bring back the six-hour in-person exam. At UCL, we had to do it for Shakespeare, for Chaucer, and for something called critical commentary. And I swear to God, I swear to God, it was horrible, but it was really good for me. I didn't have to do that. In fact, in my last year, I only had one exam.

Did you? I had one exam. I had a dissertation and one singular exam. And it was amazing. And my dissertation I gave it in March, and my exam was in July. And it was on something that I really enjoyed. So obviously, I was it about. Can you remember?

It was World War I. It was on World War I. It was on my thesis topic. So it was on the same thing. and I revised for it by listening to loads of podcasts along with loads of books and I had a great tank because I just lay in the garden listening to podcasts and the run up to this exam and I'd already finished my dissertation because I'd made a pact of myself that I wasn't going to do a last minute thing

and I'm just going to fucking bang this out so that was all done that is good I do think there's something about you know I understand that exams aren't are not right for everybody I don't think you're ever going to find a way of assessing which is going to be right for everyone you can make it as accessible as possible but like I think that it's difficult to make it anything right for everybody like any and you know any form of education but one thing that um critical commentary did so critical commentary um comes from a school of criticism called like the new critics who are just like look you just have to strip it away and like take it right back to the text so as a practice that came

from um you get a passage from something an excerpt from something or a poem and you've never seen it before and then you've got to produce an essay analysis based on just what's there in front of you and it was a really good training for how to read well and how to read quickly and well which is again again something which um you lose with AI because if you go read this for me right and you're just chucking like huge reams of text into an AI you literally forget the point of reading like reading isn't just being able to go like like, that says apple, that says banana, that says carrot. It's about being able to like quickly make connections and understand context and themes.

And I, the brain is, I'm not sure if it is literally a muscle. But think about it like a muscle. And if you don't use it and you don't work it out, it's just going to get weaker. I think that that is happening because of the use of AI in universities. And if that makes me sound like a crotchety old conservative, so be it. No, you're right. I mean, everyone says you're right. Students are forgetting how to read.

They can't even do the Apple bit anymore. Don't even talk about trying to make connections. They can't even do the fucking Apple bit. Reading is one of the great joys in life and I'm sad that we're losing the skill of doing it. And it really enriches your world. Okay. Problems.

Problems. Problems. How do you submit a problem? Oh, you send it to if I speak at Navariamedia.com. that is if I speak at Navaramedia.com. I like reading your problems when I'm on my way home from the office, so keep sending them in. They're my evening entertainment.

You sick. No, it means if I read them early, I can think about what I want to do before I actually have to address them. Okay. Hi, both. I've, brackets, he slash him, close brackets, lent on dating apps since my early 20s to find people

and weird and neurodiversity, and this has worked, a lot better than being out and about. This week, I was banned from Hinge and all its sister applications. Nothing comes to mind as to why, but apparently this can happen very easily. A flat date, a lapse in communication, some fleeting impression of rejection, all kinds of things can trigger revenge reporting. People are angry with each other this year and more afraid.

It sounds like it happens mostly to men, but nothing stopping men from inventing accusations about women as a vengeance for a bad date too. moderators have zero tolerance and have little manpower for the appeals process or discerning what's revenge reporting and what's real. It's been quite a shock and strikes me as such a tangled web of believing accusers and woke scold over correction, which sounds like it's being abused by cynical, regressive people. I'd love to hear your thoughts about the phenomenon. Ash will rightly command me to learn to do without these awful apps and I'll preemptively try to take that advice. I'm sure there's a candle-making workshop fungi lecture or

brambly hedge fan meet up for me out there in this sinful, dreary world. But in the seamless socialist utopia, the podcast is on the verge of ushering in. Wow. I don't think it is. What can really be done? I like this special one. Yeah, because they've kissed. They've kissed ass.

No, no, no. This is sarcastic. It's likely mocking. I like it. What can really be done for introverts and spectrum people hobbling over to you at the bar with an anecdote about trains. Autistically yours special one. Ash.

Um, what can really be done for introverts and spectrum people hobbling over to you at the bar with an anecdote about trains? Um, I mean, to be honest, is it, would it be that unattractive and that bad if someone wanted to talk to you about trains? No. I like people that have an interest. And one of the things I feel like fascinated by is like learning about someone else's interest and a world that I have nothing to do with. So I don't know. I think that if you're finding it hard, to talk to people at the bar. There are reasons for that, right? You know, one is lots of people who are neurodiverse, and particularly those with autism,

find it difficult to be certain about the response they're getting from someone else and feeling that they're in that sort of like connected flow state. The other thing is that technology, late stage capitalism, which I always think is an optimistic phrase, what if we're still in an early stage capitalism that's going to go on a lot longer? This stage capitalism makes people a lot worse,

and a lot more suspicious and hostile to being spoken to. But I don't know. I think that, you know, trying to authentically talk about what's interesting to you is a good thing to do when you meet people. In terms of being on the apps, I mean, I'm sort of not sure what the advice to give here is because the thing that's happened, which is being banned from Hinge and all its sister applications, you are powerless to do anything about. And I think that also speaks to the power of platform capitalism

where the power of these platforms is to be able to regulate your access to a market of some kind. So with Hinge, it's a sexual and romantic market. With YouTube, for instance, it's an information market, a content market. So when Navarra Media's YouTube channel got nuked for a day and it came back, I mean, I remember all of us

feeling really vulnerable because we were like, oh, this is such a big part of how we find people. I mean, website traffic for news organizations is really, really difficult to drive. You know, YouTube's a big part of how people find us. And with that gone, we were like, oh, my God, our livelihoods,

our political mission. So I'm not really sure what to give in terms of advice. I suppose you've dealt with this in a sort of rye way, which is candle making workshop fungi lecture, but find real life meetups where you are likely to meet people who are similar to you and who are into the things that you're into because that is a lot less arbitrary in terms of being, you know, excluded and gives a lot less power to those who you know, want to, you know, who feels slighted and are reacting poorly to that. The thing is, is that when you have to navigate who's in a space in real life, you know, automatically believing

all accusers is a bad way to run a space. You're going to find yourself run into the ground if you take that absolutist view. So I think by the nature of having to create real life spaces is that there is there has to be more nuance and acceptance of nuance because otherwise we we can't function as human society and so I'm really sorry that that happened to you special one but I do think that you should just keep talking to people about trains but you you and your wisdom already preempted that I was going to say that so moya maybe you can be more surprising I'm not going to be more surprising what I am going to say is special one although I know there might be specific challenges that come with

neurodiversity. I will say I think the bare bones of this problem is something that everyone I talk to, neurodiverse or not, complains about, which is that they don't know how to talk to people, IRL, and feel reliant on apps to do their, to outsource their dating life to. And I will refer us to a quote that we made in the previous episode, which is the blind boy one that Ash mentioned, which is I am no better than any other person. I'm a human being and I'm no better than any other human being but I'm no worse than any other human being either and I think that's the bit I want to laser in on for you I really don't think the kind of going up to someone in the bar and wanting to talk about trains like Ash says is that

jarring I think I just want to echo what you said really because when I'm thinking about dating when I'm thinking about dating success the people that I have dated recently where I'm having the best time are not necessarily people I've met from Hinge per se or any other dating app, but they are people where I have shared common interests and values. And I would just advise going to the places. I say this all the time. Go to the places that you enjoy and you will find people to talk to where you will have shared common interests and values.

If you're at the train convention, you will meet people who will talk about fucking trains, okay? My partner and one of our friends went to a model train convention recently and they had a great fucking time. They're not even that into trains, but they loved it. I went to, I went on a day out, I think I might have talked about

this where they were doing like loads of old buses and it was like, it happens one day a year and they do a parade of like old buses and you get to ride and all the buses and you do basically, you go, you village hop via the buses. And so as I said, you get a mix of people who are, there's there's military history there as well.

So it's a mix of military history nerds, transport history nerds, general history nerds, and appreciators of the English village. I have vends with lots of those people. You know, there was opportunity. I had great chats with people. I wasn't necessarily going to try and pick anyone up,

but I was having chats with just like random people and we were just talking because we were in a space where we knew we'd have some shared interests. And we were all getting like a lot of joy from this very wholesome activity. which was just a beautiful summer's day hopping on old ass bus going to an abandoned village

then hopping on another bus and having a cream tea there was shared there was shared understanding and groundwork there that made it so much easier to interact with each other and a really friendly atmosphere

and if you go to those spaces where you already have some degree of confidence because there's a shared interest it makes a lot easier to talk to people and yes it might not necessarily immediately be the love of your life but they might introduce you to the love of your life you need to just go and

meet people in the first instance and I think dating apps we've talked about so much but like I said one they're divorce more context and two it's like the intention there is purely romantic there's lots of people I've met on apps where I'm like we would be great friends if it wasn't confused with this initial we've got to be romantic from the get go set up there's someone I've met on an app where I'm like I want you in my life as a friend and I think they want me in their life as a friend because we get on so well but it just wouldn't work in a relationship at all and it's like if we'd met in real world

we could just figure that out we just figure that out um it's I think the reliance on that makes you feel like you could only have the app but it's not true at all and actually some time off the app might be really good for you

and your confidence not spin a negative position go to the candle making workshop go if you want to make candles go make candles it's so fun and there's oh there's so much we can do But I feel so, so, like, boxed in by the lack of shit. I need some hobbies, man. I need some good hobbies.

Right now, my hobbies are DJing, reading and going to the gym. I'm basically a bro. I need to, I want to learn how to, like, sew some shit. I want to go... The names gains. Yeah. Max Gaines. I want some good ass hobbies.

Maybe, like, learn to play a bit of piano, just so I can tinkle the eye at those. But get some hobbies. They're amazing. My brother started learning the fiddle. look at that shit imagine going down the pub and the people are fiddling one of your hobbies could be literally trying to visit every pub

in your local area you don't have to drink there just read a book there you'll end up talking to people like there's so many different ways of getting out and about it's just about being out and about rather than relying on the app anyway I've talked enough that's my advice get out there babe into the wilds

right we have to go shall we board this bus yes Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-tch-bye. Bye, one ticket to not being here anymore. Oblivion. Single to oblivion, please. See you next week, guys.

Bye-bye.