If I Speak - 83: Is jealousy the spice of life?

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

*We’ve got merch! It’s a big foldable bag just for Special Ones, available from shop.novaramedia.com* Prompted by Elena Ferrante’s novel My Brilliant Friend, Ash wonders what makes Moya jealous. Can friendships survive a power imbalance? What happens when YOU are the brilliant friend? And is jealousy a crucial part of desire? Reading: Wounded Attachment by […]

Everyone's fucking useless. Hello and welcome to if I speak. Hi. Just to confirm that when more you're saying everyone's fucking useless, she's talking about me and chal directly that's exactly what i was talking about i definitely wasn't talking about anything else it was obviously like logan roy yeah it's very useless oh that's a great question whose succession would you be i've never seen it okay but then how can we participate because i'm obviously logan roy you're obviously logan roy no i don't know who i think i'm probably

she has a bit of a tragic character isn't she i don't know she comes up medium on top but she ends up her dad. Yeah. I've never seen it. Yeah, I know the plot. Sorry. I don't know. Maybe I'm Greg.

Why don't we just get into it? Moyer, if you've got questions for me. I do have questions. I've got questions. Yeah. Okay, let's go. Question one. This is 73 questions minus 70 to remind maybe first time listeners who've tuned in for the

first time. Also, you're listening to If I speak with Moyloy McLean, Ash Sarker. Just to remind you, we're getting too complacent that everyone hears a long time listener but some of them are first time callers so we're doing questions this is just a way to get to know each other a little better and give you a bit of an insight into who we are so question one linked to something I talked about in the last episode what trait do you value most in your loved ones oh what trait insight insight insight into you or insight into the world or insight into other things both both the

thing which I really really value and which makes me drawn to somebody that makes me want to spend time with them the thing which I think is like enriching for me and like challenges me on my blind spots is insight can they get to the heart of something perception that's so good it's a great trait okay What do you think yours is? Is yours kindness? So yeah, I mentioned kindness in the last one. So me and my friend were talking.

This question has been prompted by a conversation that I had with a friend about what we really, what we really, really value in the people and what makes someone closest to us. And I think kindness isn't necessarily that thing. I think the thing that we identified was people who expand our horizons in some way, whether that's through challenging us, through presenting different perceptions of things, through just bringing us new things to think about and chew on and discuss and like through talking to them

then our world gets a little bit bigger I think that was the thing that we really identified but I just really realized recently how much I value kindness maybe because I know in myself that I can be unkind so it's a and my friends are like you are very kind person I'm like yeah because you have to it's something you practice and hone I don't feel like an instinctively kind person. I feel like I really have to try.

Yeah, and that's a good thing. Although sometimes there's instinctively kind things I do. I won't listen because I sound like a twat, but... But I think kindness, not to be like hashtag be kind, because you shouldn't confuse it with... Don't take my kindness weakness. You mistook my kindness weakness. I fucked up.

I know that. But Jesus. Lana Darry. Anyway. Kindness is a really valuable thing to cultivate. Okay, next question. Same vein. What's the biggest compliment you can give to someone?

What's the biggest compliment? There's not one size fits all. The biggest compliment that you will ever receive from me is one where I spend a lot of time describing you because it means I've really thought about it. That's a really good one. That's a great one. It means that you've got insight into that person.

Yeah. Like, so it's not just like, oh, it's like, you know, if I say this thing or I go, you know, you're great or you're really kind or you're really smart. It's when I've really tried to drill into how I see you. Because I only do it if I'm saying something which I think is good. You know, you might not think it's good, but like I'm only doing it because I'm trying to identify and grapple with something that I think is good. and it's me trying to really express how I perceive and experience someone so there's not one size fits all

you're seeing someone and you're telling them about it love third question what makes you lose trust in a person I mean I suppose it's just the usual stuff of like dishonesty callousness, selfishness.

But the thing is, is that we all do little versions of this all the time. And actually, what's striking is that it doesn't, you know, I think that if you've got like a hair trigger for losing trust in someone, that's quite bad. Like, we're all having to deal with these little micro-disappointments from people all the time. And it's about the strength of your relationship. in kind of like absorbing that and healing that. You know, there's sort of like micro tears and muscles that you have to heal all the time.

So I don't really think, okay, well, what's a, like, obviously if like my partner cheated on me and, you know, I found out about it, I'd be like, well, there is this huge breach in our trust. Like, I don't know whether it would be salvageable or not. I mean, we've not been, we've not had to deal with that problem. But like, like in a weird way, I'm thinking about. about it right now and I'm like well maybe we could actually like you know and maybe I feel confident enough in our um you know kind of like emotional skills that we would be able to repair a breach of trust of that magnitude um I mean if he's listening don't get any fucking

ideas um but yeah that that's that for me is you know I guess for me you know there's this question of what would be an irreparable breach of trust And it's so hard to imagine. I don't know. What about for you? What makes me lose trust in a person? I think it's a build-up of things. If they continually can't show up.

I think if they continually, continuously can't show up, whether that's emotionally or physically. Like, a couple of times it's fine. We've all got shit going on, you know? We're all in different head spaces. But I think if it's a continuous lack of reciprocity, then the trust goes. That's it for me.

But maybe you're less cynical than I. I really want to get on to your amazing... Would you call it a big... I think it's an intrusive theory. It's an intrusive long read. It's an intrusive theory. It's something which... Because I was going through our previous episodes

and I've tried to think about what are the big things that we haven't grappled with. And I don't want it to be, you know, just like, oh, well, we've not talked about... climate change or whatever. I wanted it to be like what is a big emotional theme that people are continually having to like struggle with and make sense of that we haven't discussed head on. And the other reason why I was thinking about this particular thing is because I've just started reading my brilliant friend. Oh my God. The first thing I'd written is my brilliant friend.

So don't, don't spoil it for me. Don't spoil it for me. Because when I say, like, I'm truly, truly in the foothills. But this is a big theme of my brilliant friend. So, drum roll, please. Thank you. I want to talk about jealousy. Woo!

Jealousy! And I want to talk about jealousy in all its forms because I think it's a really difficult emotion to talk about because there's so much stigma attached to it. nobody wants to be a jealous person. Nobody wants to be known as a jealous person. Like that would be worse than being considered stupid. You know, there's something so undignified about being jealous.

And there's also a gendered element to this, right? So no one wants to be a jealous person. It's even worse to be a jealous woman. And whether that's to do with a romantic relationship or being a little bit bad mind when it comes to other women, you know, a jealous woman is just, oh, truly, truly, contempt. But the thing is, I think that jealousy makes total sense when we live in a world defined by competition, comparison, and precarity. You know, I think we would have to experience these things even if we weren't living under capitalism, but seeing as we are, you know,

that the engine of consumerism in particular is a feeling that you're never enough by yourself and how advertising works and how marketing works and how social media works is that that were also bombarded constantly by images which reinforce a sense of personal inadequacy. So that's kind of where I want to start. And I thought that I could introduce three types of jealousy, because that would help us nail down what we're talking about. So there's what I'm going to use for the word jealousy, which is feeling possessive over the attention, affection, or desire of a romantic partner.

all right so that's what I'm going to use the word jealousy for then I'll say there's rivalry so a dynamic where you feel like the achievements or the virtues of another person puts you in the shade in some way and then there's envy or there's covetousness which is wanting what someone else has obviously these things can overlap and interact and a dynamic might have dimensions of both but that's what I'm going to talk about jealousy is feeling possessive over the attention affection or desire of a romantic partner, that there's rivalry. You being great puts me in the shade

and then there's covetousness. I want what you have. So big opening question, what have your experiences of jealousy been like? It's so funny that you think about my brilliant friend because when I was on holiday, one of the best discussions we had was all about my brilliant friend.

and one of the friends I was with had actually given me my brilliant friend as a birthday present because I hadn't read it and hadn't got around to reading it and I, this was like, year before, it was last year and I read it

and I fucking hated the protagonist. Actually hated it. And what I'm going to say won't be any spoilers. But we talked about why my friend loved the book and loved the, I guess loved the story I thought the book was technically excellent and I didn't enjoy it.

I could see all the brilliant things about my brilliant friend and I could see that it was actually the skill of the writing that made me hate it so much, not even hate the book, dislike it because the protagonist was written so well I just despised her and I despised her because she was weak because she let jealousy rule her

and I wrote I was talking about this and why it was so it felt really my friend was like god you're really animated about this my other friend was there she's like this is really like hit something in you and I think it's because jealousy is emotion that I have worked very hard

not to let into my life in a consistent way that doesn't mean I don't experience it that doesn't mean I don't get envious that doesn't mean I don't cover other things. It's because I think it is so potentially ruinous that when I experience it, I work really fucking hard to either distance myself from the stimulus of it

or process it and turn into something much healthier. I don't know if that's achieved all the time. Maybe I'm just repressing it, but I'm really afraid of what jealousy could do to me. My therapist recently said something like, she's like, you're very competitive, aren't you? And I was like, am I? And she's like, yes, and we're going to talk about it at some point.

and I think I fear who I become if I was put in direct competition with people and there have been a couple and we were talking about me and my friend what it is like in relationships when you are the brilliant friend because I think there have been about two friendships I've had

where I've been framed as the brilliant friend and then one friendship when I've been framed as not the brilliant friend I'm the second one and that doesn't mean I'm not the sidekick I think actually I put myself in a psychic position in a lot of my current very, very important friendships and I feel very comfortable there, but I described that as the Judy Greer role

because Judy Greer is always the best snarky friend in rom-coms. And I love that job. I think that's a great job for me. Judy Greer gets to fuck. What are you going to say? I just don't think that you're a Judy Greer. I just, I think fundamentally, you know, okay, all right. doing a thing where I say, how I see you.

Yeah. Incredibly quick, like, in terms of, like, all the people that I know and that I speak to, in terms of the speed at which you make connections in which you, like, illuminate them. Sometimes it's like a flash of light. And when you're disinterested in an idea, it's like a horrible, drizzly rain. Yes. When you're not interested in something, it's just like, oh, like this whole thing is dead. And when you're interested in it, it's like, bang, a flash of lightning.

Such a bad trait. You are also just like, you're so insanely beautiful. And I'm not trying to blow the makeup of your ass. Like, you just are. Like, you know, I've been around you in like a pub or something. And like the effect your beauty has on other people is like mental. And I think that part of, I just, I think that like this thing of like, oh, I'm, I'm the sidekick. I'm the Judy Greer.

I think it's a story that you tell yourself because I think that you're trying to make your brilliant and the impact that you have on the people around you more palestine. to yourself. But we all see it's a game. You're not really Judy Greer. I don't really know who Judy Greer is. Your name other fucking, you know, you're the Lila.

You're the Lila from my brilliant friend. Yeah. Wow. This is what the discussion was about, right? So I think there's only been two friendships in my life where I have been the Lila overtly. They have let it be known that they think of me as the leader. And this is the crunch point, right?

I would say the friendships that I have right now, the ones that are so special and so meaningful to me and so supportive, it's because they don't view me as main character. They see as like, we're equals, we're peers, we have different strengths, we have different things, we're mutually supportive. Whereas the two that I'm thinking of

where they explicitly positioned me as the Leela and hated me for it, because they put me in that role. You put someone in a Leela role. You put someone in the role of your brilliant friend. There might be, there's always going to be someone out there who might be sharper than you in some ways or like seen as more attractive in some ways. There are so many people out there who are that person for me. But the trick is not to just focus on those qualities.

You focus on all the things like you have to build your own self-esteem up essentially. And the relationships where I've been, the brilliant friend, have ended so horribly, so poorly, so distressingly because I did not see myself as the brilliant friend. and I wanted a relationship of equals but because they put me in this place they couldn't help but resent me for it and I then disdain them in turn so it just became this horrible grinding thing and the only relationship I've had

where I've seen someone as the brilliant friend also ended badly and that was because I behaved I wouldn't say like in the same way but I definitely did things where they were like oh I don't like this behaviour and ended it and that's why I just think a brilliant friend relationship is so unsustainable that's also why I'm so scared of jealousy because I think it's such an obstacle

to creating the healthy connections that really will build up your self-esteem and it will take you out of this lane of competition and instead this lane of mutual support. Put you into that one. I totally agree with you, right? And I think this is the point of the, like, Eleanor Ferranti novels, which is an examination of the ways in which society

sets women up in comparison to one another and punishes them both for it. You're punished for being beautiful, you're punished for not being beautiful enough. You're punished for being brilliant, you're punished for being stupid. You're punished for making the most of your potential and working really, really hard.

You're punished for not doing that. And that's why I think the novels are about. And that's why I also think we can use these things as shorthands of like, oh, the Lenu, aren't you, the Lila? But it's so damaging to see that as, well, this is how friendships between women are always going to be, right?

Or also between men. I mean, the thing is, is that I was talking about this with my partner and talking about his friendships and talking about, you know, he's got a particular friendship with a woman where they very, very much see the self in the other. I mean, like, I think that if you told me that they were siblings, or like, you know, fraternal twins, I would believe you. You know, they're very, very similar. And there's no sense of rivalry.

and he's got these friendships with men where their interests are similar, their sense of humour are similar, like even how they look is really similar, but there is this rivalry that comes in. And you can try and avoid that as much as you want, but it's there because, you know, there isn't that difference in gender,

which means that you're not going to be competing over the same thing, whereas when you've got that, when you are the same gender, here comes rivalry. And so that's why he can have this friendship with a woman where it's very much, well, I kind of see her and me and myself in her, but there's no, there's nothing that's destabilizing about that because you're not going after the same things.

And is that jealousy, well, you talk, obviously, you're talking about rivalry, you separate them at start. The rivalry, obviously, is like, it's when you realize that you're not a totally unique person. Yeah. It's when you realize that others might not see you as the special individual that you see yourself and that feels threatened even if that's not what's actually happening

it feels like a threat right to your personhood to your sense of uniqueness when someone else has similar qualities and similar skills and I think that's where the competition comes in where you're trying to prove that anything you can do I can do better because I'm the OG I'm the original

I'm the real slim shady I think that's my that's my so I don't feel like I have rivalries with people or other women and part of it is because I feel so confident that I'm the real slim shady But then what if there's another slim shady? I'm going to get totally fucked.

We've not seen another slim shady of an Ash Sarker. But I think I had to... I've had to learn quickly that there's other slim shadies because I am just a random mixed race girl. But you're not. You're not. I'm not. And that's like I have self-esteem so it's fine.

But like I think that was also good for my self-esteem as well to like not define myself by the things that, you know, when I was a pundit or whatever, people were telling me about how unique I was because I'm like I promise you like I used to get sent email sometimes I remember one time as well because I was always your like I wasn't always your backup

but I was just like back up brown girl of color brown girl of color doesn't make sense I was just back up brown girl of color and it's like people producers quickly make you have to realign where you get your sense of self from because best fucking believe they're going to leave you on the email chain that says oh we can't get Ash Sarker who the fuck else is around

who can fill her slot I guess we'll go for this and I was like I can see everything you've said you know or you know someone else has pulled out they're like oh this person's pulled out who else can we get who's you know B tier or C two or whatever and then when they can't get you you see who's filled in for you and you're like oh you just went and shopped around

for another random brown person who can chat of it interesting interesting so I was like there's no slim shady it's also like in terms of like the slim shadiness of it you know, me and my partner talk about, and this is shift, you know, rivalry has a relationship to sexual jealousy, right? Like these things, these things are connected. And, you know, I say this to, you know, my partner for whom like, you know, obviously I experienced jealousy. And sometimes that jealousy is sort of exciting, right? It's the little bit of spice in the soup. It's the little

thing which enhances his value to me is to know that he's desirable to other people. Um, And, you know, that there, of course, can be morbid jealousy, which I'm very lucky of not experienced with him, where it's, you know, the Othello kind of like, I hate how much I love this person and it makes me want to kill them and destroy them because they could be possessed by someone else. I don't feel that way.

Good to know. Good to know. Just in case you're listening, I don't actually feel morbid jealousy. I'm actually really well-adjusted. Like I don't feel that. But particularly at the start of our relationship, not really at the start of our relationship,

before we got married, I think visible wedding rings really change things. But before we got married, it really fucked with the brains of some white women that there is this tall, very conventionally attractive white guy with someone who they don't see as conventionally attractive. and how they would treat me would be really weird and there'd be different flavours of weird, right?

So sometimes there'd be outright hostility. Like one of our early dates, there was a waitress who was just like such a fucking bitch to me, right? Like she was, she rolled the dice of conventional attractiveness and won. And she was horrendous, like, just like horrendous. And my partner was like, that's really weird. I've never experienced that in my entire life. Like, I've never seen that before.

Um, you know, he was like, that's normally someone who'd be like laying it on really thick and she was talking to you like you were shit on her shoe. And I was like, yes, but I'm still going to tip her because I was trained to tip workers. I was, I was trained to tip. So there's that. Or there was someone who like, um, yeah, and this happened quite a lot of times, but I remember someone in particular who was, um, kind of like trailing me around at a friend's wedding. Um, just being like, you know, your, your boy. friend so good looking so good looking I was like yeah he's you know he's nice to look at but like kept doing it as if I'd won the lottery and I was a bit like awful vibe I was like okay you need to you you're trying to process how you know dark skin McGee over here like you know ended up with someone that you think of as high a value and and you know there have been times or I've been like well hang on what if he what if he sees that his value on the sexual marketplace can get him, you know, he gets really angry at me because he's like,

you use really disgusting words to describe yourself. And I'll be like, you know, what if you see that you can do better than pumba? Ash, you can't because it's a fucking pumber. What the hell? Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. I'm disgusted too. I'm letting you into my most fucked up thoughts

in Jealousy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I just, it hurts, it hurts me to hear you describe yourself as pumba, that's, look, my sense of self is not healthy, we all know this, um, I'm a podcaster. No one has a healthy sense of self. Um, you're adorable. You know, like, what if, you know, what if like, you know, this community of women who I've been socialised to understand as my rivals, right? And my rivals in particular for the attention, affection and desire of men. Like, you know, what if he realizes he can go for one of them? And where my, well, I'm the real slim shady kicks in, is that I'm like, okay, but I, you're never going to meet anyone funnier than me. I fucking guarantee it. Like, no one is going to be able to make you laugh the way I do. I have a chokehold on your sense of humor, a chokehold. And, you know, there are the things where I feel like, it's not that I don't think there are people cleverer than me.

Of course, there are people cleverer than me. but like I just I feel so confident in like being funny and clever that I'm like sure there are going to be people who are more attractive than me or you you you know even you my partner who should never be looking at another woman anyway but like you know maybe you could even think they're pretty and me you are never going to find someone who is a better partner for you because of these other things because I'm the real slim shady do you ever think about whether he's worries about you finding a different partner yes and And he used to say things like, I know, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just never jealous. And I found that really annoying because I was like, well, I know I experienced jealousy. So does that mean that you're, you know, you're too confident in, in my lack of desirability or something, right? So that's how I interpreted it. And then he experienced a bit of jealousy and I was so happy. I was firing off like, you know, smoke flares and stuff like, yeah, you're experiencing jealousy. And so that's what I mean by like jealousy and this is different, you know, jealousy rather than rivalry. So jealousy being this thing which exists within the partnership is that the total absence of jealousy in a weird way didn't make me feel good. too much jealousy and it can very easily

tip into too much jealousy and I think that too much jealousy is when you know there's you know it's coming from you know attachment anxiety there's controlling behaviours psychological aggression

there's scrutiny that's surveillance there's blame like that I think is unhealthy jealousy but that little bit of jealousy where it's just, it's not, it's not full on precarity, but that's little like, oh, what if I lost you? I think you need that in a romantic relationship. I think you need that tiny little bit because

that's kind of also where like, you know, erotic thrill and desire and pursuit can come from even when you're really committed. Yeah. I don't know. I'm quite scared of jealousy as a thing. I think in my relationships it's manifested as I've definitely gone mental internally and I'll just be mental and then I'll find out that my partner is also going mental but it's manifesting as control which is equally unhealthy

like I used to imagine and also get quite titillated by this but also like would sometimes imagine my partner just cheating on me all the time and I never went through their phone or anything like that but I'd just be like imagining it and then I'd repress it and they'll come out in a different way

okay but why is it titillating right because it's a tiny bit of the spice in the soup yeah spice but that was too much on my part and then I think they they definitely were a bit threatened by my brilliance and I found out of things afterwards like they'd say to people oh it's fine if you fancy it by the way and I would never even have considered

that other people would be attracted to me was in this relationship or that they'd notice it like really weird obviously mental for me to think is blah blah but um i didn't realize that that was something as well that they were experiencing that there was you know they were trying control the jealousy and trying to control me in the way of presented myself in lots of ways anyway but i also want to talk about just general like what are your general triggers of jealousy because i think when i'm thinking about what would trigger my jealousy it's not achievements in terms of

like winning an award or anything like that I think I think it's a mix of beauty and brains if someone also has beauty and brains then sometimes I think I could be jealous of that but then I quickly try and turn into admiration because I'm like I'm not letting this kettle on me and I think when I think about jealousy

and I've been trying to separate jealousy from like as you've said rivalry and covet I can't say it covetousness covetousness which I think covetousness can sometimes be good fuel but I think jealousy I think if you'd make it right I think jealousy can't

I think jealousy is paralysing because I think jealousy is a combination of a feeling of lack and complete feeling of impotence because you feel you lack something and you don't think you have the tools to attain it so instead you just stat there in your little swamp

festering with jealousy whereas think covetousness when I'm like I want this thing I want to do this thing I want that thing they have I'm like, okay, so how do I get it? How do I go and get that? Can I get that?

Is it a dream? It's so funny. I think I feel maybe the opposite, which is I think, so I think covetousness, you will never be happy when you get the thing. Yeah, maybe. And so I think that covetousness, covetousness is the grass is greener. And the grass could be someone else's partner. It could be someone else's house.

it could be someone else's lifestyle it could be someone else's body it could be whatever right and the thing is is that once it's yours you don't want it in the same way okay so that for me has never it's it's never driven me to make choices which make me happier hmm rivalry have I experienced a sense of rivalry yes not recently um and I I don't know if that's because my sense of self has become healthier or less healthy, one of the two. But I've definitely experienced a sense of rivalry

where, so like I had a weird friendship where now looking back on it, they perceive themselves as the brilliant friend. And they really had to let me know it. You can't choose yourself as the brilliant friend. That to me says that you are actually the brilliant friend and they were trying to re-assert the dynamics.

No, no, no, no. I mean, they like, you know, I remember them saying a couple of things about, like, them being, like, more beautiful than me because, you know, they're... What the hell? Skin colour and hair colour. Oh, that's low self-esteem. I think, look, we were, we were in our early 20s, right? Like, it was, everyone was fucked up and trying to, you know, we're not close now.

And it's funny because actually some of the traits that they have, at least physically, you know, blonde hair, blue eyes, pale skin. that's mirrored in my best friend with whom I've never felt anything but a relationship of equals. Like, I worship at the altar of her brilliance, but not in a way which feels like it puts me in the shade. Like, it, and I think that there is such mutual admiration. And the way we talk about each other, it's like we talk about soulmates, you know, both of us talk about each other like, oh my gosh, the greatest thing that's ever existed. We talk about each other to our partners, like, you're, you know, you're my husband, but she's my soulmate because she's the most brilliant thing that's ever walked to the air.

We both do it. And I don't think she's ever tried to put me in the shade like that or ever tried to establish, you know, this dynamic for anything other than equals. Professionally, rivalry. It was really striking to me. I didn't feel it as rivalry, I don't think, but I remember people saying to me,

you know, when Grace Blakely sort of like first, like, exploded, you know, onto the media scene trying to be like, oh, Ash, oh, Ash, are you going to be out of a job? I mean, you know, and there was also like a little bit of a hint of like, oh, well, you know, she's also, she's also prettier than you. And I was like, oh, this is horrible. The way in which, you know, something which is strengthening the left, right? It is strengthening for the left for there to be multiple people that can go out and make

the case for our politics. And not just that who can be different, who have like different strengths or different points of views. who can like contest that publicly that this strength people are trying to use it as a sort of knife

like a knife in my heart like I remember people really trying to do that Were they people on the left? Yeah there were some people on the left and it was men on the left. I think men on the left can be some most jealous little bitches in their lives sorry I think they can be really jealous

that's also a thing actually when we you know we've briefly touched on men being you know experiencing jealousy but we don't talk about men and their jealousy of women there's there's a real there's a jealousy of women that sinks in sometimes and it's like because men are socialized to be um you know especially particular men if they've got particular backgrounds they're socialized to be very entitled um and even the ones that fight it that's still a lot of conditioning to own under overcome women also you know lots of as a social to be entitled if you come from say you're a white woman you feel entitled to certain partners maybe or certain access to certain things um but yeah uh men i've experienced definitely covered me as a partner and then they get me and then they're jealous of me and they're jealous and i think there's a lot of men out there who are jealous of the positions that you might have been in and the fact that you can make these arguments and that you have built a space where you are a person people go to to make these arguments

and they're so rubbing their little rubbing their little paws together at the thought that you're going to be knocked down a peg or two by this new white lady commentator who's on all the screens oh ash because that's how they think of it they're like oh she's going to be humbled now

oh she's a bit too big for her boots and I see this all the time on the left the left has a real problem with jealousy but I think I think that everyone has a problem with jealousy and the problem is is that when you can't accept jealousy, rivalry or covetousness as an emotion that you experience. I think it just has more power over you. And when it comes to, I mean, that's why I really liked, there was this essay called

My Beautiful Friend, Envy as a Way of Life, which looked at the ways in which women are put into these relationships and dynamics of rivalry. So you can never have two equally beautiful women, right? There's a Yates poem, which is two girls both wearing kimonos, one beautiful, the other a gazelle. And so this being a part of patriarchy and misogyny is that you can never have two equally beautiful women. And that one's beauty is enhanced by the other's plainness. And then one of the things which is really amazing about this essay, which is envy as a way of life, is that it doesn't just go, oh, well, you know, I'm put in the shade. I'm plain, is that then there's also this kind of attachment to like, well, I'm plain,

but then it means I'm more diligent and I'm more hardworking. And so that becomes part of your story. And one of the lines in this essay, which I thought was really great, was, you know, that the relativity, right, you know, her leonine features, you know, my plump ones, you know it's an addictive relativity you know my envy which i've made like many women the secret passion of my life and towards the end it says i might not i might be no great beauty but i'm no innocent either the only thing that feels better than being chosen is being slighted so then there is also this facet to patriarchy and misogyny where when we see this beautiful woman right you know this one where we have given them or we see them as having this otherworldly

power we then also sit there quite smugly going well you're going to be you're going to be punished for it one day and my plain Protestant work ethic of a face will be rewarded in this other way but that is also misogyny right the the one beautiful or the other a gazelle that is patriarchy and that is misogyny but then also this feeling of like well me little miss plain jane will be rewarded in the kingdom of heaven, whereas, you know, this beautiful woman will be punished for her beauty, misogyny also, patriarchy also. I think in a patriarchal system, it's like you can't, as you said earlier, you literally can't win, and it's men, women, whatever. It's also capitalism, because it's all competition.

We've built an entire economic and social system on competing with thy neighbour rather than working in community with them, community, your word, working and working alongside them to build like mutually it's like one always has to be above the other like you say whether that's in beauty whether that's in intelligence whether that's in literal capital that you accrue someone always has to come out on top there has to be a number one and a runner up um rather than just being this non-hierarchal system and but also humans really fucking love a hierarchy like we love a little pyramids it's it attracts us um but when you're at the top you have so far to fall which is maybe why I'm always like I want to be Judy

grew. I never want to be Catherine Hegel. Because of the way in which beautiful women are punished. Not just beautiful women. Just anyone who's seen at the top, it's always like everyone wants to shoot you down. If you humble yourself a little bit and there's much more to learn and also it's less threatening, like you said. And then you can quietly get on with your own business without being bothered. Without being a threat. It's not nice to be a threat. It's nice to be liked and support other people and you get more out of it too.

who wants to spend their entire life looking over their shoulder, wondering who's coming for them because they hate them. Instead, you can make yourself non-threatening and you spend time with people who love you for it. And you can mutually support them, and you can pour the love that you have into them, rather than constantly worrying you're going to have the rug pulled underneath you by someone who's posing as a friend,

but secretly is fermenting, he's fermenting too much, marinating and resentment. But I think that's the thing, which is that, like, covetousness and rivalry, it's poison to friendships and it's poisoned to happiness like it really really is and it's also

so mythical do you know what I mean like it's just like it none of it is real like we don't really exist in this hierarchy of one versus the other we're constantly having to create it

for ourselves and give birth to it again and again in our dynamics but then again I do think that there is something about jealousy and relationships where I can't stop thinking about it as anything other than like a spice which is like you know too much and the dish is ruined but you need this like just enough and there is a line from Esther Perel which is

you know that two's company but three makes the couple so the sense of oh there could be this this third person that draws you away from me that's where I experience our coupleness, you know, most intensely. And that you, yeah, you just, you need a little bit of that jealousy for thrill or for desire. Because, you know, one of the sort of like theories of like erotic drive is that it's when there is distance to be closed, right? When there is precarity, when there is unknown. That's when you feel the most erotic drive. And it's when you've, you know, kind of like merged and you've established.

commitment and emotional security that you feel the least. So then jealousy becomes this thing that you can like introduce in a manageable way to like recreate, you know, the thrill of an erotic drive because it's like, oh, there's distance to close even though we're very, very committed.

But beyond relationship, like romantic relationships, I do think jealousy personally is such a destructive mode of being. And I think one thing obviously we haven't touched upon because it feels really obvious to us, but I'm sure listeners will be like, what about social media comparison? And that not

only breeds jealousy, it also breeds jealousy on the most boring traits possible, which is mostly just like being beautiful and having things. Which I find so potent and yet so fucking boring, because they're not making

you grow as a person in any way, shape or form and having a constant fixation on, you know, is this person more beautiful than me? does this person have more things than me? The answer will always be yes if you're on social media. There will always be someone who the answer is yes for. But is that growing your mind?

Is that growing you as a person or is that making you more hollow? The more buffed and shiny you are and yet there's nothing going on in here. You're not thinking. You're not doing X, Y, you're not going out. It's not making you go out to a gallery or read a book or actually think for yourself. That's also a thing.

Actually, sometimes you will go out and do stuff, but you won't actually think or engage with it because you're doing it constantly to try and seem like you're living a life that you covered rather than actually engaging with it from a very real place that hits you in your solar plexus rather than just as like I can put this on social media.

That's something I think about a lot. It's jealousy useful. I feel, I don't mean this in a smug way. Maybe it is smug, right? Maybe this is coming from my like, my superiority complex, my real slim, shady complex is I genuinely do not feel jealous or covetous of anyone that I can see on front cam like and I'll tell you why I tell you why right the minute someone goes I have to

record this beautiful moment they're being driven by some some kind of lack yeah and I was thinking about, you know, all these things that we experience, or that we're kidding ourselves is an authentic moment, but obviously it's not because we can see it. There was one of, like, Rihanna being like on Barbados, having a mango and dipping it in the sea and eating it. And everyone's like, oh, like, I want this. I want this for myself. I want this, you know, carefree, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, no, it's content. It's content and it's branding. Like, it's branding as authentic. The minute you can see this happening on a video, it is no longer the thing that you think it is. Exactly. Exactly. And I know this because obviously I've done

this. Like the moments that are most special to me when I'm away, you're not, you're not going to see them anywhere. You can't see them. They're only up here. The things that have really meant a lot and really have changed my life or really have made me grow or really have fed me. They're in here. The stuff that you see on social media, I've gone back and taken a picture. Something else. Because it's too special to fuck with and make into content. I think that's the thing which is like, like I genuinely don't feel social media inadequacy. I do I guess a little bit about body shape because it's like well you know I've got my belly I've got my my hips and my hip dips and blah blah blah like is this you know is my body okay

um is this how a body should be obviously that has an impact on my sense of self just like it does for everybody but I think in terms of the covetousness of a lifestyle don't experience that like genuinely I don't. Yeah, you don't, but other people will is the problem, so how do they stop? But I also think age comes into it. I think age comes into it, which is, you know, I can remember smartphones entering my life.

I can remember life pre-smartphone. I can also remember when smartphones weren't good enough to make, you know, to create content that anyone would feel jealous of. Like, you know, it'd just be like two pixels and some like horrible noise. And I think that that makes a real difference for an ability to see the art of it.

and to be like, because for me it feels bizarre that someone experiencing a moment that they enjoy would want to put it on social media. Like that still feels really weird to me. And particularly when people film themselves crying, I just think, my God, like come friendly bombs, like fall on our society. Like the idea that you'd be crying, you'd be like, wait a minute.

I just think that's insane. But then also, but then we're getting into like the live streaming of conflict, which also is actually a very useful thing but that's journalism that's a different thing that's different from like I'm crying and I'm feeling upset and I want to turn it into I want to turn it into content and look I think this comes back to what are the things that genuinely trigger covetousness it's not what I obviously feel the urge to consume right and you know I want to buy the shoes I want to buy the outfit I want to by the Porello olives. I want to, you know,

I want these markers of taste, which mean that people will experience me as like a, you know, essentially we're having the markers of like bourgeois social status, right? Like obviously I feel like I want these things. But I don't feel covetous of people's lifestyles and social media because the minute someone's pulled a camera out, I'm like, eh, like, oh, you are like me,

a little hog driven by, self-loathing, ha ha ha ha. Like I don't I don't feel them as being superior to me. And where I do feel covetous of things other people have, often where I feel most covetous and most envious of people and having something that I want is when I feel that people can move through the world in a way which is easier and less anxious and more fun than me. That's where I really feel covetous. I totally get that. I was just thinking about the same on my end,

what it was, and it's the freedom of movement is the thing. I definitely cover it. Or covert, I don't even cover it's the right word, because I want to do this. I want to achieve these things when I'm thinking about it. So I think there's another side to,

like is there an adjacent thing to cover it that's less destructive? Because I do feel motivated to go and make this, of reality but like you say I think you feel motivated to go and make yourself less anxious and have fun in the world and do this because so you're saying that covetousness is only something that when you have it you wouldn't enjoy it but I think you would enjoy that if you had it but I feel envious of people yeah I feel envious I feel a sense of envy sometimes but the thing is is that I don't know what's going on in their head I don't know if they really feel the ease that I'm

no everyone gets anxious but what I what I earlier when I we talked about covetousness you were like covetousness if you get it, you then still want something else. Whereas I feel like having coveted certain things, like certain body types, then I've got them. I feel great. I love it. I've coveted certain wealth brackets and got them. Great. I love it. I've coveted certain ways of traveling. Got it. Love it. I'm very happy. The other thing that I cover it right now is the ability to maybe be a full-time writer who doesn't have to go to a 9 to 5 all the time because I see my friends who live like that.

Fucking A! Oh my God, just the freedom to go and move. But then maybe that's not covetousness. That's what I mean, what's the other word? Here are things I want for myself whereas I'm talking about, you know, when I can see someone I go like, oh God, what I would do to swap places with you.

Yeah, but I've had that with people and then I've achieved it. And then I'm like, this is great. Whereas the thing, maybe, yeah, so there's like, maybe you're healthier than me. I don't think I'm healthy than me. I don't think I am because there's things that I would cover it, like generational wealth, which I will never get.

But it's like, what can I actually tangibly change and achieve that I also, so I can't think of the word that's not covered, but there's things that I'm definitely envious and I'm like, okay, well, that's something you can get, go and get it. Go fucking go. And that's why I think just, when I said jealousy earlier, that's why I don't, that's why I'm not categorizing as jealousy, because I think jealousy really is marked by its stagnation.

It's defined by being stagnant. It's defined by feeling completely impotent because I've talked to friends who are like, I'm so jealous, this is eating me up, I can't deal with these emotions. And it's like because they truly feel stuck and like they can't go get it. They have a lack of agency around this desire. And that's where the jealousy comes in and eats you up. Whereas I kind of am like, there must be something else other than covetousness where a word for it where you're like, I want this thing that you have.

and I don't want your thing I want it for myself and its own form and I'm going to go and get it I think you're on the money for the paralysis of jealousy and the sort of like attachment to the sort of like inferior position

you've cooked it you've cooked up attachment attachment to being inferior but we now to go solve problems don't want Wounded attachment great essay by Wendy Brown thoroughly thoroughly recommend who is Judith Butler's partner Oh my God

do you know that's I didn't know that at all Again, bring it back to my favorite weird couple of all time. They're not weird, but this reminds me of them, Andy Street and Michael Fabricant. Who I've mentioned on here before, but again and again, every opportunity, Andy Street and Michael Fabricant. I love it. I love it. We have come to our traditional final segment, which is, I'm in big trouble. If you're in big trouble, give us an email. Email us at if I speak at navaramedia.com.

That's if I speak at navaramedia.com. Moyer, why didn't you read this one out? Sure. Right. Dear Asha, Moya, hope you both well. I'm 20F. And in the last couple of months, I've realized that I've been falling for my friend,

also 20F. When we first met, there was definitely a vibe. But I didn't go for it at the time for superficial situational reasons. I was close with her ex and best friends with her childhood friends. She's the best person I've ever met And this would otherwise be great news

Except da-da-da she has a girlfriend Of a year I thought they were really happy together So I've been trying to move on by dating other people With mixed success Because I'm in love with her She's been starting to come to me About issues within the relationship

And I feel icky receiving this information with her Oh, with her not knowing I have feelings for her I don't want to tell her And form a wedge in the relationship or have her thinking I've time telling her how I feel just after she's opened up about her relationship problems. The advice I've given so far has really helped them, I presume that means the couple.

But now I've manoeuvred myself into a very awkward position where she keeps coming to me specifically for relationship advice and rightly so because we are friends. I just feel icky for basically lying to her and getting all this sensitive information that I don't think I should have. Also, I almost feel like I'm becoming a third, which I'm not yet open enough to be into her. How do I dig myself out of this pit

I've created without harming her or their relationship? I don't know if I should distance myself without being a bad friend to her. I feel quite stuck and not crazy confident in my own judgment right now. Anyway, please help. I love the podcast sending love, best wishes. Oh, 20F, 20F.

When I was 20F, I fell in love with my best friend. Wow, I didn't know that. And it was... Agony. Oh god, it was such agony. And I remember what it was like to be like sitting next to him watching every single episode of The Wire and being just so aware of like the warmth of his arm on the side of my arm and just not wanting to move and feeling like I was in limbo that I felt so. so alive when I was close to him and also so paralyzed at the same time and because we were such close friends I mean we spent so much time together and you know he had this ex who kind of like kept coming back on the scene and then there was you know somebody else at that time and God every single one of these things

was like a little knife in my body and yet I was so addicted to it I was so addicted to this pain and this agony that came from you know this feeling that I wanted him so much and loved him so much and couldn't really

couldn't have it and that I felt so at the mercy of these forces outside of my control anyway we ended up getting together and we were together for two and a half years. And it was a really wonderful relationship in lots of ways. It didn't work out, but not because anyone was a bad person. It was just, I think we both fundamentally wanted different things from life. But I remember that agony so, so well. I remember that agony so well. And the reason why I'm talking

about this is because the advice that I'm giving you as a 20F, it's very different from the advice I'd give someone if they were a 30F or a 40F. Because I think that this is, is a part of life. And I think that you have to experience it. And I think that you have to just go through this feeling of like horrible, agonizing aliveness and also paralysis. And it's going to play out the way it plays out. I don't know if you'll get together. I don't know if you won't. I don't know if one day you'll end up making a big declaration or if it's going to fizzle out. But I just think that you have to let this experience play out. And I think that you have to be a supplicant to it. You know, you're not really agentic when these things happen. And you have to

feel it. You have to feel it. I would, you know, if I was in a position to receive advice from people at that time, they might have advised me to like, you know what, I think maybe you should like draw away, you know, maybe you should date other people, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I didn't have that kind of power over myself at that time. And I think it's because I was really love with my best friend but also because I was 20 you know also because I was 20 I just fundamentally lacked that power over myself so I just think the only way is through special one act as though you are a small ship on much more powerful currents do you know so the best advice that I've ever sort of internalized what's from a children's book oh it's from Michael

Rosen's we're going on a bear hunt and it's you can't go over it we can't go under it we have to go through it and i know it's a children's book but i think it applies to so much in life like whether it's it's funny because obviously it is just written as it's a children's book i don't think michael rosen wrote any big subtext but if i was doing like english gccase and i had to analyze where going on a bear hunt i'd be like you know this is talking about any sort of emotion particularly things like grief uh love you have to go through it you can't circumvent these things you can't try and think your way out of them sometimes you can't over intellectualize them you just have to go through it however the advice i would give to you as a

third year old is thus you i i preface this with uh acknowledging what asha said and that i know you won't take any of this advice and that's okay you're just going to go through it and that's all right but here it is if you want it tell her tell her and tell her that you You're in love with her, you don't expect anything from it, but explaining why this is why you're going to distance yourself and they're going to remove yourself from this friendship for, you know, a while because you don't think it's fair, the situation you've ended up with. You have to cut the gaudy and not.

And sometimes the answer to love is a confession, an acknowledgement and a recession from that situation. Otherwise, it leeches out of you. The love, the frustration, the love, the love, the love, low self-esteem that you're feeling, all of this stuff leeches into the way you are with this person and you are tortured. And you can either choose to stay being addicted to the torture, which many of us at 20 love to do. We want torture. Or you can, as I said, cut the knot and open up your little heart to the world and let that just play out as it plays out.

but right now you're sort of like living vicarious you're putting yourself in the position of the third and I think that's probably I can't speculate too much but I'd imagine that's something you feel more comfortable with than putting yourself in the position of the first like otherwise you would have just gone for it when you met her you said although these superficial situational things

I think even if there weren't you would have found a reason not to have gone for it with her I think there's something else there about your confidence and maybe avoidance and where you feel safe where you feel safe giving affection from but ultimately if you really did want to sort of start healing you just confess to her

and give a very sort of measured message about maybe in person maybe maybe even by phone where you're like look I have all these feelings for you they're not going away I feel really conflicted about the role I'm now playing as your advisor I don't think I can give you fair advice I'm worried it's going to affect your relationship

but most of all this has already affected our friendship it's irrevocably changed I'm not able to be neutral in it or like see you as a friend I think I need to take some time away and step away you won't do any of that but if you were 30 you might so I just don't confess just embrace the torture every bit

20 is the age to be tortured oh my God like I just think like I kind of miss it I kind of miss that feeling like the love I experience now I wouldn't trade it for the world I wouldn't trade it for the world and it's got its own kind of intensity right the lover experience now has its own kind of intensity

to the point where like you know I was talking to my partner about how you know we don't want kids but I was like I mean this is the sort of mad thing you say when you're married someone you're like you know if you ever got a terminal illness I would like want you to donate your sperm so I could have your child because I can't live without a part of you I just want you to know just want you to know I can't be alive if you're not alive

so and I just like said that over like the chicken I was making one day right so the lover have now, it's very different. It's still deranged in its own way, but it's very different. But I will never have. And like you just don't. Like even before I had this partner, right? Like even before that, I didn't have that, you know, total full body agonizing paralysis, torture. You know, you'd listen to Leona Lewis, bleeding love sometime, Ginny. You're like, I really understand where she's coming from. Um, you don't, you don't have that when you you get older um really and i think that it's no not in the same way not in the same way

because i would there's no way after i you know got a job and like a like a proper fucking job that i'm like passionate about that i would watch 60 hours of the wire with somebody just because i was in love with them and i couldn't say i'll be so for real ash i think that's just because you're now more well-adjusted and i think there's plenty of people out there who still behave like teenagers in love because they're maladjusted. Oh. But, okay, all right. Well, maybe I'm better adjusted.

Yeah, I think people do let it derail their lives in a very tortured way still. Okay. Well, I guess the thing is, is that, like I said, the advice would be giving you if you're 30F is very different. But because you're 30, but because you're 20F, I'm like, embrace the torture. Yeah, maybe. I mean, within a year, it sounds like you might be at university. Within a year, you'll be going your separate ways anyway.

So it, this two shall pass. This two shall pass. It will pass. So, like, I don't know, the intensity of that feeling, like, when you become old and desiccated like me, you don't, you don't feel that anymore. It's not true. It's just because you're a long-term relationship.

Like, I still get those, my friends still get absolutely fucking mental. What, the torment? One of them gets really tormented. I think I also could get very tormented, but I'm too afraid of being tormented to let that really rip. I don't know

I just keep coming back to 60 hours of the wire without making a move 60 hours it's such a long fucking serious I know someone who literally had a friend and did a similar thing but with a different show

and they were well into her 30s it still happens it still happens torture lovers torched love but get out your system now so you don't have to do it later because I'm sorry but at 30

you've got other shit to do you've got to take the recycling out there's rent to pay keep bleeding keep me in love see if you'd have come to my cum lights

you'd have heard us play that you'd have heard us play Leona Lewis bleeding love but you never come Ash you never come I'm waiting for Godo waiting for fucking Godo over here

you never come I'm sorry it's all right it's fine when I have my house warming though. If you're not there there will be something to pay, not hell but something.

Consequences. If you play bleeding love. I will put I'll play bleeding love all the time. Play it multiple nights. Should you wrap it up here? Yes. Wrap it up here for Moia kills me. Goodbye listeners. Thank you for listening. Enjoy the torture. Enjoy the pain because it's all part of this beautiful tapestry we call life. This been if I speak. I've been Moira-Lade

McLean. You have been. No, you were Prince in that moment. moment. Dearly beloved, we're gathered here to celebrate this thing called life. Um, yes, he's also dearly departed. Right. Adios, Ash, you didn't say your name. Bye, bye. She's been Ash Saka. Bye.