If I Speak - 84: How to ace a first date (by two very different daters)

Episode Date: October 14, 2025

*Flag your Special One status with a massive foldable Baggu bag, available from shop.novaramedia.com* Are you a stranger dater or a fan of the ‘indeterminate hang’? Moya and Ash explain their very different approaches to a first date. Plus: advice for an unhappy house-sharer. Send us your dilemmas: [e-mail] Music by Matt Huxley.

You are listening to the dulcet tones of Moya and... Ah, sh. Sorry, I was doing my Thatcher. Oh, yeah. If an impression needs context, I'm either too young for it or it's not been rooted enough in the conversation. Just like, some people steer me, you're like, I'm just doing my Thatcher. I'm just, I'm just do my Thatcher. Sorry, I'm just my Thatcher.

Okay, anyway, questions, questions. This is 73 questions, minus 70 because we don't want to step on Vogue's little toes with copyright. Okay, first question. Imagine this. You're with the love of your life. Would you rather fake a laugh for the rest of your life or fake an orgasm? Oh!

Oh, that's so difficult. Oh, that, I mean, either sounds really nightmarish. Really, really, really, really nightmarish. Okay, am I allowed to laugh or orgasm separately from partner? Yes. All right, that's important context. I think it's going to have to be fake the orgasm, and I'm going to tell you why.

I'm going to tell you why. The big belly laugh, or like that really stupid laugh you have with someone where you're both like wheezing and crying, I think is such an important part of like what the bond is. And I think that there are many dimensions to sex, which aren't just climaxing, which are important. I think that like you can have a nice time having sex

without actually climaxing but you can't have a relationship without real laughing I agree I agree I would I would also choose faking the orgasm although fun fact I've never faked an orgasm

I don't pretend I never have, never will if it doesn't happen I'm just like it's not going to happen I mean obviously I don't anymore but I sort of like you know, when I was younger and didn't really understand

that sex was also supposed to be for me yeah, man, I'd play the greatest hits. No, I never did it. And I think it's probably, I think honestly, maybe it's got something to do I don't know what it would have been. Maybe someone when I was young

told me never fake an orgasm and I'd forgotten it and internalised it. Maybe it was because I read so many books, like adult books, so I internalised the knowledge that you shouldn't fake an orgasm. Or maybe it's just because, I don't know, I didn't start having sex until I was 17. So by then I was well on my proto-feminism.

So it could have been a factor of those things, but I've just never, I've never done it, and I never will start. There's no point. Because I agree, you can have a really good time having sex without an orgasm, although preferably I would have a partner who knows how to come. Preferably, but also like...

No, definitely. Sorry, it's going to be a definite story. No, we should, we should, we should actually do a separate, a separate episode on this because I find whether or not I can is dependent on so many things and partner is just one of them. Stress, what's going on in my head, like whether or not I've realized that what I need is different from what I needed last time. Like it, it requires so many different pieces to be in place. And I sort of think that like the pressure that it puts on a partner

was ironically why when I was younger I would fake it because I was just like, oh, I don't want them to feel bad about themselves. Yeah. And I totally get that. I mean, I get the reasons why people fake them. I'm also, I guess in my life I was like, I want to normalize me not coming is not a response to like what's happening and also normalize it to myself.

because that took the pressure off in my way as well because it's so, like you say, it's so psychological whether you come along. And it's like, I had to teach myself I even could come using certain methods

and that's psychological too. Like, you know, you can use a vibrator or back in the day we use the shower head and the bee day. The bee day. Oh. You had a B day?

I'm not going to go into this because I know my family doesn't. But yes. Perfect type, perfect type. But then I had to teach myself that I could make myself come using the manual method, which is hands. And that's like a, you know, a block as well. Like you have to teach yourself. For those listening on the pod, Moyer did a very sensual gun finger.

Is what I would describe that as a really sensual gun finger. Sorry, we've got so derailed. We've got so derailed. I've got more questions for you. Okay, jump fingers gone. Okay, ready? Plant house or Trinket House? Oh, plant house.

Plant house easily. The reason why is that trinkets accrue dust. I don't like dust. I like a very, you know, if I'm dusting and I always, a damp dust, right? I don't dry dust. So I don't believe in the feather duster method because my mom always convinced me that that was actually really dirty. I don't know if that's true

but she was like she looked at a feather duster with like repulsion and disgust so I'm a damp duster so damp cloth a trinket like it introduces complexity whereas plants

they fill your home with oxygen isn't that nice that is so nice that is so nice of them to do I think you're right although you've now given me a new complex is that the right word

with the damp duster thing damn Fuck. God damn. Okay, right. Last question. Who do you trust most in this world? Can it be a tie?

Yeah. Yeah, fuck it. We like trust. Trust is good. Let's encourage lots of trust. I would say my partner and my best friend. but the trust is also like really different right so like the the tests of that trust are really really different i don't always trust my partner's judgment because i spend a lot of time with him

and i hear how much mad shit he says and also how much mad shit he does and here's a here's a thing about um heterosexual relationships is that like it is a little bit like having a child sometimes and you kind of have to work out how much do i stop you from harming yourself because the dynamic of like being the nag or like always telling them how to do something is like also sort of, you know, a poison to eroticism. So I remember watching him, um, cut down a box, right? So like, you know, cutting down a cardboard box to like, you know, be able to put it in the recycling. And he had the knife facing outwards towards his hand, which is steadying the box. And I remember the sequence of thoughts going thusly. Thought one,

well, that's a really fucking bad idea. Thought two, if I say this, he's going to get annoyed at me because it's such a basic task that I kind of have to make the decision about like do I tell you how to cut down a box or not and then thought three was oh that's a lot of blood um like it was just this sequence so I trust him with like my safety and my happiness and I trust him to be the person that I come to with absolutely everything and all states of uncertainty but when you see someone fuck up a basic like that and he sees me fuck up basics as well right it's totally reciprocal

of course that undermines your trust in their judgment in some fundamental ways and because obviously I don't live with my best friend and the context of that trust is built through again like oh we bring uncertainty to each other

but we also sort of we see real competence from the other person right because the other thing about our best friend is that they sort of swoop in They can do like a big swoop when you're feeling really shit about something and you're feeling really incompetent. I would trust my best friend to cut down a cardboard box. I wouldn't consistently trust my partner to cut down a cardboard box.

That blood story gave me the movie TVs. Because I'm so many, so many times throughout the day, I'll start doing something stupid and doing things in a dangerous manner. And then I'll be like, no, just think three steps ahead. And every time I don't do that, you know, like if I leave a bowl on the side, I'm like, wow, that's a silly place for me to leave a bowl. In never to be able to forget that it's there and it'll get smashed. That's happened.

It's the sort of like final destination foreshadowing. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. This is also the thing that, does it not smush the eroticism for you seeing him do stupid things? That's just a part of living with people, but I also think in particular heterosexual men. in particular

there is a level of acceptance of stupidity isn't there oops Corbelief jumped out put that back down put that back down in okay no today we're not doing this Andrew

today we're doing something else today we're doing something else today we're doing something else we've got a mystery question courtesy of chow so I'm holding the phone near the microphone Oh, and just before the mystery question, I want to say a massive thanks to everyone who, A, writes in, in general, but also writes in after we do episodes. We had loads of responses, particularly from the Mastondry episode.

Lots of people said they cried. We, you know, I crowed, you crowed, we all crowed. All crowed. But we really, we do appreciate emails. We don't read them all out because obviously they're quite personal. But we read them and they're very touching and moving and we're just glad that things resonate with you. So, cheers special ones. Right.

Chal, hit me. Ooh. Okay, mystery question is this. How do I ace a first date? Well, fascinating he does. Ash, a person who hasn't been on a first day in, what, eight years? Yeah, seven or eight years. Me, a person who has been on many first dates, but am I,

facing them. That's a good question. That's a great question. My friends have the impression that I'm quite good at dating. I don't know where this has come from. I'm not good at getting into a relationship, but they're like, oh, you're good,

do you know what, I'm good at getting on dates? Okay. I'm good at getting on dates. And I'm good at ending dates early. Okay, without having to fake a medical emergency. Yeah, I'm good at leaving dates. there's just bits in between that I'm not so good at. But let's talk about it.

Let's talk about it. What do you want to start with this? All right. I want to start by unpicking the notion of the date entirely, right? I love it. Okay. I've had a preview of Ash talking about the forms of dates and it's good. Okay, right.

So the first thing about dates, and this was something that was said to me by a friend, is that the date form, and he sort of used this, like, you know, the way Marxists would talk about the value form is that the date form sort of constrains and defines all kinds of social interaction in a way which sort of can have this like really oppressive weight. So any time you are hanging out with a person of the gender to whom you are attracted. You sort of can feel this like oppressive weight of the date form.

And it's something which is stuck with me every time I'm hanging out with someone who is a man. And we've talked about this before. Many of my best friends are men. And like quite often we'll go for like dinner or a drink just the two of us. And earlier this year, one of my best oldest friends took me for like a really nice dinner for my birthday. It was like a really, really nice dinner. And I remember thinking to myself, what if someone sees me and thinks that I'm cheating on my lawfully wedded spouse? I got like a sort of like, I can't remember if it was an unsolicited email or DM. And it was, you know, some rando being like, oh, you know, I met you in a Tesco's years ago. You'd been on a date at Lahore Kabab House. And I was like, we never

I've been on a date at Lahore Cabab House. I was like, no, I was interacting with a friend. And again, this sort of fear of, like, being perceived as a date, particularly within the context of my relationship. It's sort of, I always feel this, like, certain, like, squeamishness or, like, squickiness of, like, oh, no, like, can something be a date even when I don't want it to be a date? Can something be a date even when I don't intend it to be a date?

have I walked backwards into a date? Like is this speaking to some sort of latent desire that I have for a date with someone who is not my partner? I mean, all this kind of stuff. And yes, those are the thought processes of a completely insane ruminator. But that is actually what I'm like. So that's the first thing, right? The sort of oppressiveness of the date format.

The second thing is that I don't like first. dates in terms of how we normally think of them where you don't have a sort of like pre-existing like bond or or relationship and for that matter most of my first dates have come after i've already slept with someone in my in my dating history first dates have mostly come after i've already slept with them so there's actually this sort of like indeterminate period of like hanging out and trying to suss each other out in the sort of plausible deniability realm of like, are we friends? Are we not? Are we something else? And that's where I thrive. Absolutely thrive in that indeterminate space. And the sort of first date after that period of really

fun exploration and indeterminacy is like, you know, it's fine. It's different. It's not really a first date. But the typical first date of like we haven't had sex yet, we're sort of going because we fancy each other enough to like have a drink. I'm terrible at it. Terrible. Like it makes me want to have a, you know, nervous breakdown. So that's my take about like I think that the date form and the first date form can be really, really oppressive.

And I also have found that they're not fun. I don't have fun on them in the same way that I do in this interterminate space, which for me is the real test of like chemistry and connection. Because in the interterminate space, the thing that I now realize I was looking for, for is can I get carried away with this person? Okay. I mean, there's a lot to think about.

There's a lot to think about there. Firstly, the date form. I wonder if that's, if everything can become date form just because of, okay, so I was out the other day with a friend, and he was telling me about the audio lord essay about the erotic. Mm-hmm. And how the erotic is in everyday life and how people confuse the erotic with like the pornographic,

but actually the erotic is like this. especially for women, it's this sort of like power and energy that kind of infuse everything. And I feel like the date form is simply actually maybe just the fact that when there's two people together, there's an erotic connection often between them if they have any sort of like chemistry. And that can be with a friend. That can be with, you know, someone that you are romantically interested in. But eroticism being present doesn't necessarily mean that you are going to have sex. Like, for example, platonic connections have erotism. all the time and in sort of touch and creativity.

And it's like this, what did she call it? She said it was like, um, the, it's like this well of sort of, um, I don't know, it's just like a force. She was like, it's this, this source of power and resources. It's available to everyone. And it's, it's just like a thing that exists between you and that's the erotic and that's the erotic charge.

And I think just when you have two people together, there's probably gonna be, if there's any, if you have anything in common, there's probably an erotic charge. And sometimes that erotic charge will lead you to a sexual place, but sometimes it's just two people kikiing and finding, like, inspiration and creativity in each other. And yeah, she said, this is the Wikipedia page, sorry, I'm reading from now, I'm cribbing for

just to be really transparent. She said, it conceptualises on the erotic as a, this is the summary, conceptualise the erotic as a subliminal power that all women possess that provide satisfaction and joy in several ways besides lust and carnal desire. And I wonder if what you're experiencing when you're with somebody in the date form, whether there's someone that you're sexually interested or not, they're someone that you enjoy the company of, whether that is actually an erotic charge. And that's what you're used to associating the erotic charge with a sexual partner. So that's why you're like, oh no, do they think I'm on a day? And it's like, no, you're just experiencing the

erotic babes. Look, I think that this is entirely possible. And it's, I think, that my friend was talking about the date form, perhaps rather than the erotic, is the single most avoidant person I know. An avoidant king, we stand. So I think that, like, him trying to be like, oh, maybe what this thing is like an erotic charge rather than a sort of, you know, superstructure of some kind. Yeah, I think avoidant, you know, I don't want to pathologise too much, lull, given the fact I pathologise all the time. But I think as someone who is prone to having avoidant tendencies in certain situations, when I feel an erotic charge with people, whether that's a platonic thing or whether it's a sexual thing or romantic thing, I know I can

pull away and be thinking about it. I'm like, oh yeah, like when my friend, you know, we make a connection, sometimes I can get a bit like awkward and be like, you know, and that's something I've had to learn to lean into and embrace and be like, I remember the first time one of my friends said, oh, I love you. And I just was like, oh, that's nice. literally crazy shit man crazy shit like what's clinging onto the helicopter ladder as they pulled you upwards and away but it's like my friends will say things now like oh I want to see you every day and I'm like I want to see you every day and like that's that is eroticism I think that kind of connection that's deep spiritual connection um and when you're with someone

and you have that chemistry that's also eroticism either way I probably need to be the S info but that's just one thought I have loads more dates which we'll get on to but coming back to the date coming back to the first date and this thing that I'm saying which is that when it's this sort of indeterminate space of hanging out um I that's when in my experience I've got to sort of test the things which are really important to me which obviously it's like attraction the quality of conversation can I laugh with this person but also it's a very particular thing of like can I get carried away with them right can I can I it's a particular kind of fun it's not just like oh I've had fun it's like ah fucking hell that was insane um but you

You don't want to call it a date? Well, it wasn't because it wouldn't, you know, I remember, I remember this happening, which was someone with whom I'd been sort of like meeting up and we like obviously fancied each other and we were just sort of like, yeah, getting like carried away together. And I remember him like at one point and we'd like gone for dinner and a drink and after like bumping into each other like on a train and like gone for dinner and a drink and like, had loads and loads of fun and, like, stayed out really late. And then we went for another

drink and we were just like keying. And he sort of like just stopped. He was like, what are we doing here? Like, like, what is this? And I was like, I don't know. Like I was just like, bro, I think you fancy me. I think that's what's going on. And he was like, yeah, but I think you fancy me too. And then like, you know, away to the, away to the races, we went. But like, he had to sort of be like, no, no, no, I kind of need to know if this is a date or not. And I was very happy to like, sit in the space of like oh this could not be a date like who knows i'm doing a face the listeners can't see me do a face i think that has more to do with you and the patterns you have of avoiding naming things for fear of like getting her etc i think that's more to do with avoidance

i think that's more to do with avoidance because i've done this too maybe maybe but i also think that I was a fuck boy in a previous life maybe yeah you could but

fuck boy's not the most avoidant people of all time are they are they not part of God's

avoided choir um anyway moving away from the avoidance I fully believe that you should if you want to ace a date

right first of all call a fucking spade name it it's a date people are too scared of calling

it a date it's a date you can be like we are going on date we don't have to fancy each other this is

low pressure. I say to a lot of people that I go on first dates with who are strangers. I say this is no pressure, especially when you meet them off apps, because I think, Ash, you have talked about two different types of dates. One is the indeterminate hang. One is the date with a person that you fancy, but you're too nervous yet to both say you fancy each other, but you're sitting there and you're like, this is a date, but we haven't slept together or done any of that yet, right? You haven't actually talked about the stranger date, which here's where I come in. It's where I come in. I love to sit in front of strangers. Oh, my bread and butter.

I've never been on a date with someone that I already know. Oh. How's that? How'd you like them apples? We're the opposite. We are the opposite. Yeah. I try and keep my romantic life completely separate from my existing social life.

And anytime they've merged, it's been chaos only because it's my fault. Like, that's my fault. I understand that's probably to do with. my choices and my maladaptions, but I like to keep them very separate in the first instance. So I am a stranger dater. No stranger danger here, stranger daters. And here's the key to first dates. You keep your expectations low. And as a friend of mine, Megan, one of the most interesting people I've ever met. She's like a film character. And I love to every time I talk about Megan, I have to be like, she's like a film character because she's so

beautiful, she's so interesting, she's so unusual. She's one of those women who, if you wrote her into a book, they'd be like, oh, she's not real, but she is. She's very real. She always says to me, she's like, all I want is one good date. All I want is one good date. And that's what you should go into, too many people are going into dates, and I've included myself in this, going to your first date with the expectations that you have to carry an entire relationship prospects into this date and that this is either going to be the love of your life you're going to hate them when actually what you should be like is can I spend 90 minutes or more hanging out with this person having fun and on a sliding scale what's most likely going to happen

is you're going to sit in the middle somewhere where you have a nice time and it's fine and pleasant enough and you can stay there for about two hours at the bottom of the scale is that I need to leave after 90 minutes 90 minutes is the most I'll give it and I will then be like I'm really sorry I'm going to go at the top is the carried away and that's when you sit there till pub closes and you are like, wow, oh my God. And if you are someone drinking, you're probably going to either fuck it up by carrying on too late

because this is what happens when you drink booze on a date. You carry on too late and then you have over-satchezed yourself in a date. This is something that people get wrong. And I really want to get onto this, but I also want to let you speak. When to end the first date so that there is probably going to be a second. I think that is a key that people, a skill that people have, lost. They've lost the art ending a first date because they have scarcity mindset. So I think, she's gone for 24 hours and that means we're in love. No, that means you fucked

it. So my advice is actually the opposite. Literally the opposite. It's literally the opposite. Don't call it a date. Don't call it a date. And I'm talking here about non-stranger dates, fundamentally. Fundamentally, I'm talking about non-stranger dates. Because actually when it came to stranger dates. I was, it was like I had a fucking personality disorder, Moira. It's like I was completely unrecognizable even to myself. I'd forgotten how to have like a conversation. I didn't know how to feel relaxed. I didn't know how to rely on like any of the social skills that I know I possess elsewhere, right? And so I'm not saying that this is the mark of a healthy psychology, nay, nay. It is simply the mark of my psychology. And like, actually for me,

like, you know, I don't know what it was, but I guess I kind of felt like a date, and in particular a stranger date, it felt like this abstraction that we had to serve in some way, that there is this like altar at which we must sort of like make sacrifices and give offerings to create this thing called a date in a way which was kind of separate and like really, really alienated from my own sense of desire or fun or excitement or whatever else. Whereas in don't call it a date, indeterminate hangout, let's see if we get carried away, I felt really embodied. like super duper embodied in every single element of it. So not just talking about like sexual chemistry and sexual connection, though of course there is that, but also verbal play,

verbal sparring. Oh, ha, ha, ha, ha. Love verbal sparring. That's, that's like my favorite, you know, my favorite form of flirtation during these like indeterminate things. It's like intellectual play of like, you know, seeing how far you can take ideas, seeing how far you can take a conversation. And I found that like impossible to do like on a date date, but like in indeterminate, you know, oh, what is this? Could be anything date. Like the sense of possibility in that verbal play, it really, really felt endless. So my advice is don't call it a date. Do not call it a date. You know, don't name it. Don't call the spade a spade. Because what if it's not a spade? What if it could be many things? And the.

excitement of it possibly being a spade possibly being something else possibly being a hoe um like what if what if that is you know the the freeson the like febrile pulsing thing which makes it really really exciting so opposite advice don't call it a date but when you don't call it a date and what if it does turn out to the other thing what happens then you just sit in the uncertainty for ages yeah and then there's episode two what's episode two Hang out again. And then you hang out again and then what? And then maybe your friends.

Maybe you're friends and you've had these like really fun, intense shared experiences because I think you're right. I think there is definitely eroticism in friendship. And I think that in particular that magnetism, that attraction you feel, you know, it could sort of go either way. It's sort of like a stem cell. like it could develop into anything like it could develop into something romantic or sexual or it could

just be something which is um which is platonic um you know but a friendship which is like built on some of those like really like intense experiences where it's like oh you know we got really carried away that night or like you know it ends up spending like a whole day together and like running around the city and you know exploring together um i think that's also a good basis for a friendship. I mean, it forms that core pack of memories of the things that drew you together. The thing is, I think your advice is good.

Do I think it's good? Do I actually think it's good? I think your advice is really suited to someone who is trying to build something with a friend or trying to work out if there's something there with a friend, right? I think obviously it's not as applicable to a lot of the listeners who will be, sadly stuck on the apps

the other thing is like you are married so clearly this has worked in some fashion so clearly your method is working but I also more and more as I get older I'm like that uncertainty of those ambiguous relationships I find

to be quite damaging to me and I think they feed into a loop in my head of rumination and the brain loves the dopamine like brains hate uncertainty but they love the dopamine brush that comes with the hot and cold of it. And I don't think this is what you're saying, but what I'm hearing because of my own experiences when you're talking about this uncertainty

loop is, oh, let's get trapped in an ambiguous situation with a friend. It could go somewhere, it could go nowhere. And then we'll just like be stuck in this thing for ages and it'll take up a lot of time and energy and eventually it'll burn out and it'll be fine. And as I get older, I'm like, to me, that's hell, but to someone else that actually might be the best of getting a relationship. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm seeing both sides. I totally, I totally know what you mean. I suppose, like, I'm really trying to look back on my relationships and not just the one that I'm in, but kind of all the ones which felt impactful. So, so maybe it didn't, maybe it wasn't love, but it was sort of like intense

experience, right? Like an intense experience from which I could draw a, a, a less, or it was formative in some way. It showed me something about myself or it showed me something about how my desire worked is that absolutely every single one of them emerged from that space of indeterminacy. And I think it's because, you know, the way my particular brain illness works

is that I find it really hard to be myself when maybe there is a sort of cookie cutter picture of like romance or a date which I've just never really seen myself in. And so I think that's why I view it as this altar to which I have to make offerings. Like there's a leap, there's a distance, there's a artificialness about it.

There is something which doesn't feel rooted in me, whereas in that space of indeterminity, I felt that I could bring all the things that were either best about myself that I already knew or things which could be really good, but I didn't know about. It gave me an opportunity to really, really tap into it. An example of this is that when it came to,

choosing what to wear, right? So like, how do I present myself physically on a first date is such a classic staple of advice giving that I think that me and you've never spoken about it because it just seems so like obvious and shallow and wrote. But that's obviously a big part of what people are thinking about. When it was a first date, i.e., like a sort of stranger date, I'd be like, what the fuck am I supposed to do? Like, what the fuck am I supposed to do? Like, what the fuck am I supposed to wear and I'd like pull everything out and I'd be like nothing is right nothing is right you know either it's too like schlubby and comfy or it's too sort of dressed up and formal or making too much of an effort or it's it's obvious I'm trying to show off my best assets or

like oh no I'm hiding them away whereas in that indeterminate space obviously I'd be choosing things which I felt enhanced me physically in some way Ash is trying to say she was wearing

the skirt and the titty top and nay nay nay nay I know your ass is your favourite feature don't worry but also also no when I say enhanced physically it would also maybe be like

a really silly dumb t-shirt oh okay I'm sorry Like it could be that or it could or it might be the the low cut teetop right it was sort of like an element of myself that I want them to see and interact with and it could be like sense of humor or it could be you know ho ho ho she got a killer body underneath that t-shirt with her brother-in-law's dog on it oh oh you know it could be out of one of those things but it felt more authentic in some way and I suppose this is a maybe the thing I'm asking people to consider is like, does the idea of a first date serve you in terms of being able to authentically feel yourself? And I think that's one of the most important things in being able to connect with someone else. Yeah, but that's why I think

people should go on more first dates because then they get to practice actually being an authentic self. Do you think I would turn up as my authentic self years ago or like even in two years ago, do you think I bring my authentic self to a date? No, but now when I go on dates, I feel really calm. It's very odd.

Things have changed. I do think I, I do think I'm good at first dates now. And I think that the reason is practice and I think going on dates as well makes you more confident in A, being able to talk to people, B, being able to trust your instinct and gut,

but also not attach narratives to that. Like, this other person's a villain because he's really boring and won't shut up about his fucking vinyl shop. you know it's just we're not suited it's fine and then also being able to like survive an awkward moment and no one dies i think the resilience to friction and discomfort is something that people don't have enough of nowadays and i think what you're describing sounds really amazing and really good but i know that a lot of listeners will be like but i can't do that i don't have i don't have like

the lovely friends around me that i have a comfortable relationship with in a frizzon already to you know get into that amazing and determinate space like you have and i think that's also something people should maybe practice doing like you know i have no straight male friends but then maybe don't make straight male friends just to sleep with them i'm talking to myself not either um so i'm like so i'm like i do think i do want to give some like actual advice for stranger first dates just because i know that will also serve the audience and you can please respond to this so first of all how to set up the date whether with a stranger or whether with like or whether with someone on apps whether someone you've just met, whatever.

Simply ask. Ask. Don't fuck around, okay? You have on an app 20 minutes of chat and if it's zingy enough, you go, cool. If you'd like, so a line that I use quite a lot now is, which I won't use after I've told you this, but you can have it for free listeners,

is 20 years ago, people would go into a bar and they'd be able to tell if they fancy someone. Hinge is now the mechanism to get us in the bar text me on my number if you want to get in the bar. And then, but the main thing is you move them off hinge and you're like, okay, text me if you want to have a, if you want to hang out at IRL. And that is a clear action.

Think if it as a campaign, you're giving them a clear call to action, which is do this thing if you want to do that thing. And when they text you, the parameters already set, right? You're hanging out IRA so you say, what days are you free? And then you set something up. And then if it's like two weeks away, what I do is I say, cool, I'm going to message you in about five days to check this is still a lot. on and then I don't bother messaging them in between.

You can have a little bit chat if you really want, but don't bother doing that in between. If this is someone you have met out, get their number, and then text them and be like, hey, call me at you last night. Do you want to hang out sometimes? You want to get a drink? Done. I've been rejected.

I have not been rejected. It doesn't matter either way. The point is you don't know this person and you're going to hang out with them. When you are on the date, choose somewhere you feel comfortable, okay? Choose somewhere that even if you are. are having a boring time, you feel comfortable. That could be, as I like to call it, a B-list pub. Don't choose your A-list pub, so you don't want to take them to somewhere you really

love. That could be going bowling. Sometimes bowling is really fun. I'm not going to lie, it's a good stimulus. If you think they're a bit of a laugh, take them somewhere you can have a bit of a laugh. Don't go to the cinema. The point is you need to talk to this person. Sometimes an art gallery really slaps, but only if you think they'll have something

to say to you afterwards. You can kind of tell from the vibe of the person what's going to be like. having a stimulus can be really good, but it also can drag something out when you don't want to be around someone. Whatever. So usually it's a be-lis pub for me, but I've started veering away from that

and doing different things. When you're on that date, in your head, think of some basic questions to ask them. Not like an interview per se, but just things that you might like chat about with your mates. You know, did you,

it can be anything from like, oh, did you see this film? I had this thought about it. Things that are better to ask, don't be like, what's your job? That's boring. People are much better at riffing off stuff when you tell them things like a story like, oh my God, on the way here, I bumped it and don't make it up, like, it has to be something that's actually happened. But like, on the way here, I saw this like crazy guy who was running around doing something and it made me think about

this. And then people go like, oh, that's something, or like, mention something you've done, like, oh, when I was in Turkey, I saw this amazing sunset and I cried. And then they could be like, oh, oh, that would be like, you know, do you ever get that? Yeah, oh my God, like this is a thing. You have to have things where people can riff off them rather than things where it's like, what's your job? How many siblings do you have? What do you do this?

Like, it's got to be, if people feed off stories and narrative, give them stories and narrative and give them a way to tell a story about themselves. Always end the date at like, four hours, honestly, is like the max you should be on a first day. Sometimes I do break that rule, whatever, fine, we're talking. talking. I don't drink on my first date, so I luckily get naturally tired. And that means it doesn't matter how much fun I'm having. At some point, your brain shuts down, is like, I've maxed out what I can talk to this person about, even if I'm having the best time ever. And I think I could go on. My body's saying, no. No, I'm not going to sing that's our

Kelly. Yeah. I was about to do the same thing. I'm remembered. Yeah. Well, it's good that's like baked into us now. Um, yeah, so there's a, they should end the date like okay I'm not going to slouch anyone who's sleeping someone on the first date that is your prerogative all I will say is I would love to fuck on a first date however I have found it doesn't add up to a lasting connection and I don't necessarily withhold sex but I am like when I fuck someone and I don't know them emotionally often it ends up like this right you fuck someone you wake up in the morning you realize you have rushed physical intimacy without emotional intimacy and now there's a gap of awkwardness and that gap of awkwardness and that gap of

is the thing that people find impossible to surmount. For some reason, people, I think one of the things people cannot stand is awkwardness. And so that's when ghosting happens. People would rather disappear than confront the fact that you have known each other carnally before you actually know each other and that there's a weird sort of like, oh, that's how I describe that, that noise, there's a weird, uh, in the middle now. And so people just like, are like, oh, it's easy just not to confront that and like disappear. it. That's how I see it. And I just find having an emotional connection with someone,

even a little bit of one, means that when I've had sex with people, it's 10 times better. And do you know what? I had sex with someone recently and we ended it after that. I have no regrets about that because it was like we knew each other well enough where I didn't feel like I couldn't make up things about why it ended. I knew why we'd ended it. And I knew that actually had nothing to do with like anything I'd done or etc etc it was kind of my I kind of did it but whatever um it was it was I couldn't make up a narrative and speculate around it because I knew that person well enough and I knew their intentions well enough and I left it with no hard feelings and it just made the entire experience like a pleasant one rather than one that would be painful so yeah first day

I was think about calling after um you know four hours maximum if you want to leave a first day you just this is my trick don't make an excuse prepare yourself mentally it's going to be awkward for a moment prepare your bag so it's easy to pick up say i'm going to the toilet go to the toilet with your bag come back from the toilet after you've psyched yourself up and stay standing you're ready to leave and you go i'm really sorry this has been great but i'm going to go now i hope you have a nice evening and then just get the fuck out of that and then just get the fuck out of there and yeah sometimes they're like what happened where did you why did you go and you're like i'm really sorry i wasn't you could say i'm really sorry i'm not feeling this but usually they know

usually they know and it's fine you just ended it you haven't wasted an evening um those are my also if you want to see them again this is what you do you say it as well so at the end of the day you go i had a really nice time i'd really like to hang out again if you want to hang out again text me tomorrow and we can fix the day and again you've given them a clear instruction because on the date they were almost 90% say like 99% will go yeah I really like to hang out again but you kind of need them to you need to leave them some time to marinate and think about it and see whether they actually will follow through on their word and if they do they do and if they don't they don't you've been clear it's no sort of like oh did I have I made sure that I've let them know that I'm interested oh no you've told them straight up on the date you got in their first done go home have a nice sleep sleep the sleep the peaceful sleep of someone who's communicated with clarity and honesty. And my final bit of advice, behave like the person you want to date.

Behave like the person you want to date. If you don't want the person to play games, don't play games yourself. If you want to, you know, just say up, if you would like someone to just straight up, ask you out, straight up, ask them out. If you would like someone to straight up, say how they're feeling,

say how you're feeling so long as it's not absolutely mental and you've processed it first. Behave like the, but again, behave like the person you want to date. You don't want the person to date sending you a long paragraph about all their traumas before you've met. No. behave like the person you want to date, and then you will meet the person that you want to date.

That's my first date stuff. Shall I give advice for what happens if you're in this sort of exciting and determinate space? Ash is now going to give advice from the most beautiful, erotic, interdetermined, ambiguous relationship you can get. This is not for everyone. Right. Key is movement. Movement is so key.

Shifting from location to location. So, so key. So it's set up a quest of some kind. All right, the quest can be a night out where it's bar, it's club, it's house party, blah, blah, blah. But the movement from location to location, the walks you go on together through the city, like whether it's daytime or nighttime, like I think that's so important. The different locations, that's where events happen, events for you guys to participate in and like, you know, other people and it's chaos and there's possibility, but it's the walks in between

that are where intimacy is built or not, or not. Like if you find on the walks that you've got nothing to say to each other, then, you know, it ain't there, it ain't there. Second thing, you don't have to plan it by like taking a spare change of underwear and like a toothbrush. You can always buy a toothbrush. It's fine. Like, you'll psych yourself out if you prepare to that extent.

Obviously, thinking about contraceptives is, is always important and responsible, but you can get condoms from the news agent, it's fine. And you can also buy a toothbrush. So don't take it with you. You're going to psych yourself out. It creates too much expectation. No, I take it with me every time.

Ah, I mean, I... You know that I keep a toothbrush, a condom, a comb, a spare pair of pants, all kinds of things in my bag. But do you have that on you at all times? Yes, at all times. Well, okay, right, if you keep... it on you at all times great fine beautiful but i'm saying that thing on me you keep that thing no because i got that thing too i had to change that thing recently because they've been punctured by

being in my back too long oh no if i speak maternity edition oh no i'm implanted up the hilt i'm i got this hormones causing i keep that thing on me that thing is yeah i keep that thing to So, sorry. Please continue, Ash, please continue. Sorry. Like, don't plan too much. You're going to strike yourself out. Movement is key. Shift location. Set up a quest. You know, quests also don't have to be night time. You know, oh, we're going from party to party. It can also be errands. Like, I've done so many, like, tagging along with someone on their errands in a way, which has then turned out to be really fun. Like, really, really fun. And it's been, like, some of the most, like, basic shit. Like, I can't tell you. Sometimes it's like, I really need to buy a pair of sunglasses and you just sort of tag along and then like maybe you end up at a pub garden or like you hang out in a park. But that thing of like moving, doing things, oh like so good, so so so good.

I think a third thing which is, and this is the time when you're not hanging out and in between hanging out. like if both of you are sort of making an effort to be at the same place and be at the same thing but you're sort of not being like hey do you want to go to this party oh you fancy each other like you fancy each other um like I remember this happening when like after some it wasn't really quite indeterminate hangouts to be fair with with me and my partner it was a little bit more shared social settings which also like kind of political and like making eyes at each other across a conference room. But, like, there was a party.

There was a party that was raising money from McDonald's strikers. So thank you, John McDonnell, for hosting that party without which I'd never be married, maybe. And we just, like, really made sure that, like, both of us were going to be there. If you find yourself doing that, when you're like, are you going, oh, I'm going, are you going, are you going? You fancy each other. And just, I don't know. also find yourself in the same room in another way. You can.

You can. I'm joking. I think it's so much sexier to do that. Like, oh, we're going on a little party. You're going to be the party? I'm going to be the party. You're going to be at a party? So, yeah, I think, I like that we've got both bases covered, right?

Like, Moyni says, call it a date. I say don't call it a date. And we've both got concrete tips for you, whatever way you choose to go. Yeah. I think my advice is for the girls who are, who don't feel like they have access. to a seam, a rich seam of men in their life that they already have pre-existing relationships to. I'm not even men, actually. It's not for the girlies.

Do you know what? It's inclusive. If you don't feel like you have access to the kind of people you want to date right now and you have to go out and find them, this is what my advice is for. If like Ash, you are surrounded by erotic, indeterminate frisans and you'd like to maybe tap into some of them and see if they could go somewhere else, then the advice there is for you. And I know that we've got listeners of all walks of life, life of all frizons and all frigids.

No, I'm joking. I represent the fridges. But you're fucking queen refrigerator. I'm queen refrigerator. Yeah, I'm queen refrigerator. I'm fridge freezer. Oh, wait, I didn't get to tell my story, my date story. You know what?

We've really got to do. We've really got to do. We do got to do dilemmas. Dilemmas. Dilems. I know. down. Why don't you whiz through this dilemma?

And actually, why don't you tell people how they can send in a dilemma? You can send your dilemma to if I speak at navaramedia.com. That is if I speak at navaramedia.com. At some point, I need to tell this fucking story because it's good. And it's also about fourth dates. And we've talked about first dates. But fourth dates, first dates is when you, you know, you learn if you want to see a person again, just in the first instance,

fourth dates is when you see whether you want to see this person as a long-term thing or even like a short-term thing. Fourth dates is when you really get to know if you see a bump. Anyway, right, dilemma. Hi, Ash and Moyer. I really love your podcast and the way you guys dissect issues. I'm 20 years old and I'm now in my third year of university.

I'm still living with my housemates from last year and I'm not that close to them. I like to go outside at least once every day because it really helps my mental health. so I'm out of the house most of the time. This really bothers my housemates, and I'm unsure why. It's not even in a I miss you sort of way. It's almost like they're really offended by it.

They'll make snarky and passive-aggressive comments about me leaving the house, and they make me feel anxious to even tell them about my day because I expect aminosity. They're all closer to each other than I am, which is completely fine, but they seem shocked that I've started to go nights out with my actual friends outside the house most of the time instead of them. Again, they'll make rude comments like, oh, you're so popular, which is meant to be seen as a joke, but it's clear their intention is to subtly hint that I'm a bit offended I'm never around. I felt really guilty like a bad person because of this,

and I keep thinking I'm a terrible housemate. However, when I do spend time with them, I don't really have fun, and when I try and engage with them, I feel unwanted and they'll make snarky comments again. I'm unsure how to go about this. Last year, I talked to one of my housemates because she made me cry from a comment and was apologetic.

They still act weird around me, though, like I'm an alien in the household. It makes me feel anxious to be in communal spaces, Spaces and Spaces, Sean Connery. Spacious. Spacious. It makes me feel anxious to be in communal spaces and it makes me just like being in my uni house even more.

I just want to hear your thoughts as other people have told me they're being unreasonable and rude, but I still feel bad about it. Thank you for reading. Thoughts. Oh, special one. I think I might have some very loving, tough love. Some very loving, tough love. You want us to weigh in and tell you how mean and unkind and how unfair these people are being on you.

And that's actually not going to help you at all, right? That's just going to tie you closer to this narrative of you being victimized and everything's so bad. actually what you really need to hear is about your own agency right you don't have to live with these people you don't you can move out it seems like you've got other friends you can move in with them you don't have to live with these people because clearly one of the central needs of a household which is that everyone feels comfortable and psychologically safe and happy to be there and around each other isn't being met. It's not being met. And that doesn't make you a bad person. You know, it doesn't necessarily even make them bad people. I mean, look, I'm taking

you at your word in terms of, you know, the way you've presented it very much sounds like, you know, you're being bullied in this situation. And I'm only hearing your side of the story. But let me just take all of that as a given. The thing that you really need to hear is that you don't have to live in this situation. You really, really don't. You don't have to be friends with these people. There is no law saying that you have to be friends with these people. I think one of the most important lessons that we learn in our late teens and early 20s is what we really need from the people that we live with. And I've lived with people with whom it plainly, like we were in compatible. And I didn't really feel like I fit in. I felt constantly, like, irritated and

resentful. The best thing, the best thing for me was realizing I don't have to live with these people. And actually, like, friendships improved after that point, because we weren't in each other space all the time. I'm not saying that's going to happen here. But yeah, I don't think, I think what you want is for us to sort of reaffirm that these people are really mean and unkind, but why? You don't need us to weigh in on that. The thing that you really need to hear is that they're not your friends. You can move out. It's fine. Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with Ash. I think we're in university, obviously you're 20. I really want to take that into consideration. Everything feels so permanent and final. And when you're stuck in a situation, there isn't the

same understanding of your own agency and ability to leave it. There's also, I don't know how to describe it. You're just like, oh, this is, when you're in a bad friendship situation, you're just kind of like, oh, I guess I'm just in this and that's what it is and I don't know where else to go. And I get that breaking contracts seems like, oh, I can't do it, but you can, you can just get someone else to move in. It's so easy. You go and spare room and you get someone else to take your room. It's, and once you crack that, you can't. And once you crack that, you can't do it. And you can't you crack that code that you can just sort of get up and go and be somewhere else, it really makes a difference in how you spend your time and live your life. I think, I mean, I don't know,

there's two ways I could flip this. Either your housemates could be slightly, they're either like picking on you in a sarcastic fashion or they're picking on you because they, in some way, envious. But it also doesn't matter because the main point is you don't like each other, as Ash said. You don't like each other. You don't feel comfortable in the house and you want to move out. you should be so nice to them. I think you should be so sweet to them and kill them with kindness, but I think you should just move out at ASAP. That's the only advice for you to give. Life is too short, man. Life is too short. You don't want to look at university and be like, wow, I really wasted my, really wasted those years living with people that I hated if you

can get out of that situation. The other thing is, I don't know when you sent this email, but the university year will be over very soon if you're in your third year. um so you never have to see these people again after that and that's another thing just in yeah just just just go with the love is is my advice i think you said it all ash to be honest sure i wrap it up let's wrap it the fuck up i need to stop swearing please i need a we need a jar can we have an if i speak swear jar for me for me specifically yeah not for me i like swearing okay every time I swear, I need to put 50p in my tax pot. Ooh.

No, because then I'm rewarding myself. Yeah. I need to donate 50p to some cause. To me. Directly. No, I'm not donating it to you. You just had a best-selling book. That's not going to you.

All right. This has been, if I speak, I've been Margaret Thatcher. And you have been. I've been moly than the claim, because I've I can't do impressions. I'm not going to try. Right. Thank you.

Bye. Bye.