If I Speak - 92: Should we say something about women’s shrinking bodies?

Episode Date: December 9, 2025

NEW LIVE SHOW! Join us at Crossed Wires festival in Sheffield on 4th July 2026. Presale tickets available at 11AM on 10th December – go to crossedwires.live and use the code CW26EARLY. After watching the Wicked sequel, Moya wonders if politeness is stopping us from seriously addressing women’s shrinking bodies and changing faces. Are we allowing […]

Lord, bless us as we embark on this episode. See us through the next hour or so of content and guide us to make the right decisions. Men. Who are you? I am the second coming. No, I'm not. I'm not. Please don't strike me down. I'm Ash Sarka. Who are you? I am someone who would like to have a first coming. No. No, I'm guys, my sex life is fine. I am Moyloatly McLean. And it turns out I've been inhabited by the spirit of a particularly bawdy drag queen today. I mean, it was a real sort of Pat Butcher moment from you. I appreciate it. Do you think Pat Butcher says stuff?

Do you think she's like that? Pat Butcher. Was she a sex innuendo person? The borediest resident of Albert Square. Who is she? I thought that was Dot. No, no, no, no. Dot was very Christian.

Yeah, I know. Very, very Christian. Whereas Pat, she had the affair with Frank when he was naked apart from the spinning bow tie. Oh, I mean, I didn't watch his senders. I only caught it when it was on TV and my cousins were watching it. See, I'm like a fully paid up member of like the Pat Butcher Defence League.

Ride or die for that woman. Anyway, I have questions for you, none of which are you send as related. Go on, hit me with them. Hit me. Okay, so in the spirit of Condon asked 73 questions. We're doing 73 questions minus 70 because everyone has had their attention span

ruined by various forms of social media. So, question one. What is your favourite cold weather activity? How cold we talking? I'm talking a classic December wind chill you know an icy breeze whipping around your face possibly sleet sitting in a warm space no going to going to some sort of warm space like a gallery a pub or a restaurant and the juxtposition between coming from the outside and immediately you come in, there's this warm air and you know you're going to get to sit down and probably

eat something at some point and you're with your friends or a romantic interest and you're just like, this is the good shit. Let's hole up now. Oh, nothing like it. And then knowing afterwards, you'll go back out into the cold for only a brief moment, but you'll be all like rosy-cheeked and warm. Oh, so good. I love that. Yeah, holding up in a space that is not just my home, I would say. We were made for each other because that's mine. That's exactly mine, that feeling of like the warm air. And then you unwrap your scarf from around your neck and you settle in. You're like getting into the booth.

Oh, oh. And he's like, and someone goes, oh, what do you want? And you say what your drink order. And then they come over and you know you're just going to have the best afternoon of your life. I love that. Yeah. Yeah, big fan. Big fan.

Yeah. Okay. Great question. Perfecto. Question two. If you could compel any artist to cover any song, what would it be? Ooh.

That's too hard. Oh, it's the one I talked about, actually. I want Aretha Franklin to raise from the dead and sincerely finish her cover of Touch My Body. Because she always did in concert. I think I mentioned it on the pod. I've mentioned it like Lowe's recently. But she always would cover a bit of it as a joke.

She'd be like, I'm a Christian woman. I can't sing this. But it was so good. I need her to finish that cover. Aretha, come back now and finish that what you started. So I had to raise and finish the cover. I've touched my body because I think it would be something I'd listen to again and again and again. Or I need Whitney to raise from the dead and cover fully sweet thing by Chaka Khan,

which she did as a rehearsal for S&L. But it was just like a little one. I need to release it as an actual thing. Those would be my two. What about yours? Release the track. Release the track. What are yours?

Ooh, okay. I want Beyonce to do a change is going to come just because I think she would do it so well. I can hear it in my head. I can hear it in my head. I can hear it. I don't know if I agree, but I can hear it. I would like do a Leaper to do Make Me Believe in You.

I don't know that song. Make Me Believe in You is, a patty joe song but i think curtis mayfield actually wrote it like don't quote me on that but i think curtis mayfield wrote it and it's one of my favorite disco songs of all time and i think joel leper would do a great job with it she is very good with disco the only reason i disagree with bionce is not about the technical skill or anything like that is that when she does these covers sometimes she tends to get a bit overall and like just do you think yeah and like sometimes she loses a bit of the subtlety and that but the thing is a change is going to come

is going to... Like, you don't... It's not really a subtle song, right? It's a very overwrought song. No. I think she'd do a good job. I think she's my number one pick for that, but... Yeah, I think she'd do a good job.

I think, I think it's it... I'd like to see it. I'd like to see it. Maybe Kendrick can cover something. Just putting it out there. I want to see Kendrick cover something random. That would be, that would be interesting. Oh, my, what's the most random thing

that Kendrick could cover, that would still be good? Because obviously, like, Kendrick could do Mardi Baum, but it probably wouldn't be good. I was thinking also of, like, Arctic monkeys because I was thinking of the Arctic monkeys covering girls aloud and then what that yeah I don't know Kendrick doing Mardi Bum is like now then Mardi Bum that would be funny um what could Kendrick cover you need like a good talky song I don't know I'd have to come back on that it might be one of like the soul hits

I'd like to see Kendrick do some sort of cover of like a Marvin gay song or maybe and that would require him singing how much singing like he does that sort of like flat kind of like hazy singing like started seeing spaceships on rose cranes yeah i don't want him covering something where he's got to sing well then you'd have to cover someone else's rap song yeah and that's not really maybe gill scott heron yeah he could do a gill scott harran song oh no i'm really ill versed in gil scott harran so my favourite is really boring. It's the one he did with Kanye worst up, which is

it's like lost in the world, lost in the world. Oh, and they use this revolution to be televised speech. Oh, it's so good. Kanye before he went into psychosis was so I was talking about this the other day, talking about this other day, which is who's your Michael Jackson

and Kanye is my Michael Jackson. I mean, Michael Jackson is my Michael Jackson. Yeah. Yeah. All right, final question. Final question. Final question. This was inspired by reading a novel where I just ended up going, What are the things which can make you loathe someone else's writing? Oh, when they, it's hard to pin down when it's in front of me.

When they use too many descriptors, I think that's one all the time, just too many descriptors, when everything's too perfect a lot of romance novels do that really annoys me when the character's like a Mary Jane when

when someone has copied the Sally Rooney Star but can't carry it off that also annoys me hate that like you don't have to Sally Rooney style to make it literary and good um what makes me loathe

it's really hard I know when I load something because I just put it down I won't finish it and I can think of the book and oh no it's those it's those things but I can't really pinpoint I'm very bad at analysing my own dislike of writing it's just I'm like oh I don't like this and I put it down

so I'd have to pick the book up again and be like oh this is why I didn't like it but it's more you know you when there's certain tropes and it's just so I like a good trope but when it's so fucking I've tried to read a rom-com recently that was just so outlandishly stupid in what it was doing

and so so unrealistic i hate it when it's just so unrealistic that's i don't like that either um i don't like when it's too pretentious as well that's another thing yeah too stupid or too clever for its own good too stupid or too clever where's the middle how are you golden mean well the thing that made me go ugh was i was reading um the city changes its face which is Ama McBride's follow-up to The Lesser Bohemians. Now, I really, really liked McBride's first novel, which is a girl as a half-form thing, right? I thought that was brilliant.

And then I read The Lesser Bohemians, and I was a bit like, okay, like this couple, like, I'm finding them a bit annoying, but I get they're both, like, deeply traumatized people. And then it was a bit, especially with a male character, that the sort of suffering became a bit baroque. Like, it's the sort of thing which I found off-putting about a little life.

It's not that there was so much suffering, but it was gory. Oh, but it was just, it becomes funny to me. Like, if a character is suffering that much and, like, never really learning from it, it's like, okay, you'd think by the time he encounters his fifth pimp, he'd have learned to recognize what, like, Jesus Christ. Shuggy Bain as well. Get fuck. Oh, I mean, Shuggy, Shuggy Bain, what I'd like to put Shigie Bain in this is,

this is what for me is also different about a little life and different from the lesser bohemians, is that Shuggy Bain is like, okay, people who have really fucking abusive and dysfunctional backgrounds, like, they are unlikely to make it to the middle class world, which is familiar to, you know, the publishing industry and many of your readers. And so actually you're telling a story that's also about class. right and at least chuggy bain does that whereas in the lesser bohemians and also in a little life it's like don't worry he still became middle class somehow um and anyway in the city changes its face it's like the couple who are who are together still and i just found it so melodramatic to the point where can i do a little spoiler alert yeah go ahead spoiler okay right spoiler alert skip past this if you

actually want to read the city changes its face so there's this couple um he's like 14 she's like 20 and they've had this very tumultuous getting together because they're both like mega fucked up from trauma and we meet them sort of two years into their relationship that living together and basically what happens is that she kind of accidentally on purpose gets pregnant and then she freaks out a bit and then she tries to initiate a miscarriage by having very rough sex with her partner and then like goes into the bathroom and self-harm self-hams. And I was just like, but the thing is, it's I was just like, I just don't think anybody would do that. Like I just don't think anybody would do that. Like this doesn't, it's not passing the smell test and maybe because it's not deeply seeded enough in her character or it feels a bit contrived.

or it's not landing. And I just, I put the book down and I was just like, you're telling me she wouldn't just get a secret abortion? Yeah, I mean, probably, are you telling me that this was simpler? This was, yeah, this is like, it becomes very, uh, dynasty in the way that,

I hate when things become dynasty. Um, that reminded me actually a book I read recently, which I really wanted to like, because my friend loves it, but there was a scene where basically it's like, goes between flashbacks. of these two people who meet as teenagers and they instantly bond over like their crazy lives

and he's this mad drug addict and she's also got difficult life and then they bond and they have like this whole week of just drugged out bliss and then they, one's arrested and it flashes forward and they meet after 20 million years or something, you know, 20 years, 20 years and within a couple of pages they're having sex in a public art installation that just happens to have a sleep room where the door closes

and like, you've met this guy that you've been avoiding for 20 years and within two hours you're having sex in a public space okay, maybe that would happen, maybe that would happen, but the way it was written was so like, oh and then

it just happened to be the space and there was so many dramatic and they broke up like six different times this book and I was just like, this is dynasty, this is not what I signed up for. I don't want to read this Exactly

And it's not Like I think that unrealistic things can happen And that's fine I don't fall in love With a human And then a werewolf gets involved You know

Or like Someone can be drinking a beer Outside and then they see Like a horrible car crash Like these things can happen But there's a difference between something happening

Because you feel that The world of the novel has generated it in a way which is like it feels plausible for the world of the novel, whatever that is, or it feels like it sort of fits with this overall texture and something which is like, well, this is happening because you've told me that it's happening. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly. And when you said that, I was thinking about Amy McEwen and how, I think it's enduring love, it's like a balloon accident is very unlike to happen. And yet within that book, it feels totally plausible because the way he writes it and the fallout,

but it's not that the balloon accident happens and then someone falls on something else and then something else crazy happens like a balloon accident happens and yes it actually does lead to a chain of events where a stalker emerges out of the psyche of one of these people involved because of the conditions of this balloon accident whereas like oh there's a stalker

and now he's trying to kill us and he's trying to get a thousand million pounds off this ransom and then someone swoops in on helicopter and saves them that's very 50 shades of grey that's a different thing and then they have sex in a public art installation and then they have sex in a public art installation Like, I'm sure someone has a sex and a public art installation, but it just didn't, didn't pass the smell test, like you say.

That was a great question. I love that question. Shall we move on? Let's... I actually don't want to, but let's. Let's move on. Let's motor on. We should probably do a little content note for this one, shouldn't we?

Yeah, let's. The content note is we will be talking a bit about eating disorders at the very least. and that is your content note content note done so my this is our middle segment and today I'm bringing an intrusive thought to the pod

or maybe it's an intrusive moan it's all of an intrusive moan so my intrusive moan I think it's a big theory actually is it a theory do you think a theory I feel that it's a theory do you know what you're probably right it's December and I'm exhausted so I'm mixing up

my categorizations of things. And also I haven't, like, I haven't had chance to read a book in about three weeks and my brain's just stopped, stopped functioning. I'm very stupid right now. Anyway, on that note, so my big theory is politeness, specifically politeness between women, sometimes gay men get sucked into this, but mostly women, has been weaponised to excuse everything all the time or make sure that we can't comment on anything. and I am fed up. So this big theory comes off the back of going to see Wicked for Good.

I watched this on opening night with a gaggle of gays and girls, which was the only way I would have ever watched it. I had no desire to watch it other than that. But I did go and see it. It is a fucking terrible movie. That is a bad film. That is a 1.5 star film.

But the thing that struck me most, apart from Michelle Yo's all-time, awful performance like dog shit so bad there's a bit where she goes no no and we're just like cracking up it's kind of like showgirls and in the the quality of performance is showgirls the plot is just as bad um but the other thing i couldn't stop focusing on unfortunately was ariano grande's skeletal form it is really glaring in this verse I don't know why, because it was filmed at the same time. There were reshoots that were done,

but it was filmed the same time as the other one. She does look crazy thin in the first one as well, to be fair. But this one, there's a point where they put, like, gems on her clavicle. And you can just, like, there's some overhead shots where you just literally see, you just see her bones. Like, it's just bone. But you're not meant to say this. You're not meant to say that Ariana Grande is looking so thin.

She is on the verge of hospitalisation. You're not meant to say that she does resemble people that I've seen who are very, very sick. You're not meant to talk about that because it's impolite. It's impolite to comment on women's bodies. It's impolite to comment on their surgery. It's impolite to comment on women's choices. It's anti-feminist to comment on women full stop. So I do get this.

I see everyone, but I get this. You know, it's a correction for this like pervasive, oppressive, oppressive surveillance and convention that it's forced upon women. But I think that this kindness and politeness drive, you know, don't, you can't say that, it's not polite, it's really rude, be kind, etc. Tips has like melded with choice feminism, which basically says that everything women do is great because women are doing it. And I've noticed with friends as well, you know, I tip to her around being honest sometimes

even when I think it would be best and maybe I'm totally wrong there because I need to be polite you need to be polite about their choices it's not my business I need to be kind I need to be polite so I'm quite interested in hearing your thoughts and how politeness has been

or maybe it's not been maybe disagree that would be interesting I'd love to have some disagreement co-opted especially in the world of women that we inhabit and how this like sort of disagreement and conflict is framed as harmful or abusive or just out of line

I think we shouldn't do. Yeah. Where'd you want to start? This is so interesting because there are so many different ways in. Oh, okay, so the first thing, the first thing is that when you look at the cast of Wicked and the women who are in Wicked,

it's not just Ariana Grande, though of course she's incredibly thin, all of them have become so vascular. And like the weight has dropped off them. And I'm sorry, I'm not a liberal. I'm not a liberal. I don't think that whatever the individual does is sacred

as long as it like, you know, it doesn't hurt anybody else. Like, I do think it is harmful to not just women the world over, but people the world over is if you are presented images of beauty, which involve quite extreme forms of starvation. And like the ozempic pandemic has completely normalized in extremely thin body type. as the, like, most aspirational one. And I can feel it fucking with my own head.

I can feel it really messing with myself. And I keep feeling tempted to just be like, well, what if I just started taking it and, like, didn't tell anyone? And there are two things that stop me. Two things that stop me. One is I don't want to be constantly shitting myself, right? The diarrhea side effect is really enough to make me go,

that's not for me. I don't want to be presenting the sort of like, you know, hyper elegant, very thin body type, but the price that I'm paying is that I'm locked into the toilet 24-7. Just constantly. There is also an inherent comedy to that, right? Like, you know, for this grace and gazelle-like build, like you must pay the toll of shitting yourself constantly. And the second thing is actually that I know my partner loves me enough to not be polite. And I think that if he saw the weight dropping off me, he wouldn't be like, well, well, he'd be like, you know, what the fuck? Like, and it's, I know that there is a way of talking about this and you see it all the time on like TikTok, but also like women's mags, which is, you know,

Oh, I want to get Botox or fillers or go on a Zenpick or, you know, whatever, but my partner doesn't want me to. And it's always like, well, it's your body do what you want. But the thing is, is that it's not about his possession of my body or his ownership of my body, but he has an emotional investment in it as my life partner, you know, and his body doesn't only belong to him as well. If he gets a shit haircut, that's my business also. If he cycles without a helmet, that's my business also. And this is the thing about liberalism is that human beings exist in these webs of connection and obligation and love and affection with other human beings. And sometimes that network can be oppressive and intrusive. But for the aspiration to be sort of no

network or no obligation will do what you want. I mean, that is social death. That is what social death looks like. And I find it so upsetting that not just liberal feminism in terms of you are a feminist and a liberal, but liberal inflected feminism where you can't talk about, you know, hey, maybe it's kind of fucked up that like every woman I see. on social media has had bits of her face cut off and like skin removed and like tightened back and things injected into her and there are filters on top of that and there's a Zen pick on top of that like maybe it's fucked up that that's what I think an ordinary woman is supposed to look like.

Do you know what's crazy? No one ever looks good with it. This is the crazy thing. when you try and fuck with yourself to that level it doesn't even produce the intended effect I mean I'm sure we've discussed this before but it is purely a look made for a static image it's not made for real life

or for actually like or a video even you have to like really edit those video and put those filters on but the problem is is that it's a weapon that I only ruled against myself so I would never compare any woman I know friend, family, colleague, whatever, to those images that I see on social media, right? So I don't, you know, compare your face and be like, oh, like, wouldn't it be great if she

had like a ski jump nose and eyes the size of fucking dinner plates or whatever? I mean, we both have eyes the size of dinner plates, so that one's out of the question. But it's like I'm never comparing other women to that. I'm only ever comparing myself to it, right? Like it's a weapon that has only ever turned inwards. And, you know, Cynthia Arevo and Michelleo and Ariana Grande have formed the tip of that spear. And that's the thing is that you can't just be like, oh, well, it's about, you know, you and your choices. Like, I feel that they must be suffering.

I mean, if I am 15 minutes late to lunch, I'm suffering. So to not eat to the extent that you have to not eat to look like that. I mean, Jesus fucking Christ. And I feel like we, like, as feminists, have lost a lot of that language. And also lost some of the, like, historic comparisons. Like, Ariana Grande looks like Karen Carpenter. She really does look like Karen Carpenter. That's the scape.

I've seen people compare her at that. But there's this two poles are like, there's either like an extreme anger at Ariana grande and how she looks and have people like this is the most harmful thing in the world or there is an extreme laissez-faire you don't know what she's going through Chadwick Boseman's name is always brought up because it's like it's un it's impolite to comment on someone else because you never know what they're going through and that has become a mask for all kinds of things like yeah Chadwick Bosn was dying as well I don't think it's impolite to say that that man did not look well because he was literally dying like why is that impolite I don't

understand how politeness became so weaponized and yet, you know, we can watch genocide. And but people are still saying, you know, you to talk about, the way that sort of Zionists wield both politeness and civility culture to try and silence talking about a genocide, that's what, this is where it starts, this idea of like, you can't point out the obvious because it's impolite. Like, when did pointing out the obvious become impolite? I don't understand. It's not just, it's not, yeah, if you're pointing out something that's like, I don't know, disfiguring about someone or a cosmetic thing that's obviously not going to,

doesn't bring you any closer to something. But when it's something like, someone is starving in front of our eyes, why is that impolite? It's about the alignment of discomfort with victimhood. Like, that's the core of it, right? when you're talking about Zionists and the weaponization of civility, it's like, well, your articulation of an anti-Zionist position or your articulation of what is happening being a genocide or like whatever, like this makes me feel uncomfortable. I experience harm, therefore I'm a victim, right? It's like, doot, dot, dot. Purchase minority rule available in all

quality bookshops now. And I think that that is a version of what's happening here, because obviously if you are suffering, and I do think that if you are an excessively thin person because you have restricted your caloric intake or you are exercising to an extreme level. I believe you are suffering, right? That is a form of extreme psychological distress. That it must be difficult for someone to say you look really ill, right? Especially when you think about the particular role that like denial has in in terms of these illnesses of course it is a pain point for someone to say you look unwell but not all pain I mean not to be like conflict is not abuse I mean like conflict isn't abuse but not all pain is an attack not all

pain is victimization. Not all pain is oppression. I mean, you know, you could take this metaphor too far, of course, but like many medical interventions are painful, but you need them because the greater harm is not doing it. And I do think, because you're talking about how this plays out in the world of women, and as you were saying that, I've found that my straight male friend, are a lot more blunt with me about whether or not they think I'm doing something which is good for me

and I'm a lot more blunt with them than I am with the women in my life. I don't know if you find the same thing. As you know, I'm now lacking in straight male friends but when they're around... Do you want to rent some of mine? Yeah, actually, actually that would be a really good service. I could use that.

No, I actually do think there is a level of honesty that I'm willing to go to with men and maybe vice versa than I am with my female friends. And that's an interesting thing because there is obviously a line that you tread where it is like your choice is not my choices. I don't need to project my choices onto you, et cetera. But then there's also, I can feel myself sometimes holding back my thoughts, advice when asked for it

because I know that it will cause pain or disgruntlement. And sometimes I feel there is a barrier even between me and some of my closest friends because I can't say what I want to say. But then maybe that's right to have that barrier there.

And on some of the one occasion, I remember saying something to a friend and they took it so badly we just brushed over it and never went back to it but it was it was like I just hadn't built up the ability to say that and I know someone else could

but I didn't even though I would say they're like one of my closest friends and I don't know like maybe that is doing them good maybe it's just now my business I'm not meant to be the person delivering the message I'm not you know Jesus brought you this message this message was brought to you by Jesus

this message was brought you by Jesus it's really hard because sometimes I see some other friends giving advice and I'm like I don't agree with that but I can't say I don't agree with that politeness because like who am I to tell you how to conduct your romantic life

who am I to say this is where I think you might be going wrong with this thing you know and it's really difficult like is that kinder is that politer because they're still in pain. But I think also,

when you make it a habit and it's sort of integrated in your friendship all the time, it is sometimes less painful and sometimes it can be articulated in a way which is funny. I mean, I don't want to go too into it because it's not my story to tell

and all the rest of it, but there's a friend of mine who is making a choice that I'm like, yeah, I'm not so sure about this one, dog. But we're able to hold it quite lightly. I mean, obviously there's still elements of restraint for me so it's not like every time I see them I'm just like

but we can also joke about it like both of us do joke about it um like they're still going to do what they're going to do because sometimes you can only find out the hard way um but because it's very integrated in our friendship that they'll say to me like you know what you said it's just completely fucking mental or like you know that course of action they're that you embarked on is excessively deranged. We don't, I mean, obviously, there are limits to this, right? You know, if something was a source of like extreme pain,

we'd be sensitive to one another. But we're not so hypersensitive that we can't be jovial sometimes with certain things. And I think that that's, I mean, it's made me a better person. right? Like the fact that I'm getting that feedback from them has made me a better person who can make better choices. And so I think that, you know, maybe this is to do with how women are socialised and how we're socialised to take responsibility for everyone else's emotions. That means that there is such a high premium put on whether or not the thing you're saying or the thing you're advising or the opinion that you're offering. is going to cause someone else's pain because we're raised with the idea that we're responsible for someone else's feelings

and men I just don't think are in that same way. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just thinking about like when did we really get into weaponising politeness? Like, I remember when the Be Kind movement emerged in the wake of Caroline Flagstaff. And is it just because we're online now and we can see everything

that everyone's saying at all times that these people are loud like in the, you know, back in the days of pamphlets with these people have existed and been like when women were talking about things like suffrage that have been like, no, we need to be kind. No more votes.

No votes for women. But we just, the voices wouldn't have been as loud. It's interesting how kindness has become a premium and what I think is a very unkind world and how kindness is used to sell us stuff as well or like not question things like consumerism. The idea is that, oh, if you buy a thousand Stanley cups, you shouldn't be critiqued.

That's a personal choice. You've got to be kind. That's not, if you, you know, as you want to chop up the entirety of your face, you can't question where those impulses may have come from. You can't question why you might want to starve yourself thin because it's not kind to interrogate those things. But at the same time, we're also pathologising every single inch of ourselves.

So there's more navel gazing the effort, but this kindness idea means that we can't look at. outward. I mean, there are two things which are really quite extreme, right? So one is the sort of panopticon surveillance of social media and the fact that everything is subject to judgment and criticism and interpretation. Like, I remember this was like a few years ago. There used to be someone who was on Twitter where I've not, I've not seen very much of them for a while. I hope they're doing a lot better than they were at this time because they were fucking cracked um i had gone on holiday with my partner to morocco and my phone got nicked on like day one and you know i used my phone

for work and blah blah blah so like off my partner's phone and tweet i was like phone got nicked you know if you're contacting me for work you're not going to hear from me for a week until i'm back and i get to replace it and this person in terms of like and this what i mean but like the judgment Matrix was like accusing me of having lied about my phone getting stolen you know this is all a bit fishy and then accused me of like fleeing the country

at a time of crisis because there was some kind of like Brexit vote going on and I was like I'm not the Prime Minister like I'm just kind of fucking holiday Jesus Christ but it was you know when you are subject to that level of scrutiny and like everything you do is wildly overinterpreted

and And it's, you know, the self that you present on social media, it can't be the entirety of who you are. Or if it is, that's itself kind of tapped. You know, you want to create some kind of social norms, which is like, you know, hold your fire. Hold your fire, like try and be normal, try and be empathetic and all the rest of it. So that's the one thing. And then on the other is this like, you know, extreme sensitivity. So we've got two things, which is like extreme judgment

and extreme sensitivity at the same time. Like, no one is finding a sort of healthy midline on either of those things. So ever a time when you've said something that you don't think is kind, but you think it is right? Every goddamn day. I don't believe that for a second. I think you probably hold your tongue quite a lot. I mean, look, there's a...

I mean, look, marriage is an exercise and having to hold your tongue sometimes. Sometimes it's an exercise of being like, I've got to let you make your own choices and some of your own mistakes because if I have a complete say over what it is you do and throttle your autonomy to that extent,

like our bond is going to die. right so you know marriage is next side sometimes and like letting someone like make their own mistakes um but there's definitely there's definitely a couple of friendships I can think of where I have to be really careful and sensitive about how I offer an opinion because they experience me as a judgmental person um how do you deal with get it right yeah yeah I think I'm experienced as a judgmental person but the people always ask me for advice so maybe they want to be judged well I think that that is a contradiction right which is people really want advice and they really want guidance and they also really want confirmation

that they're doing because the thing is that people only want confirmation that they're doing something right if deep down they feel that it might be wrong yeah yeah but then if you're like this mine will be right they go Tonto yeah they spin out but do you do you go Tonto

because I think I must I go Tonto I think I used to go Tonto actually I used to I used to spin out a bit but I'll spin out first

but I will begrudgingly accept that it's wrong like yesterday you said something to me where you were based about work and you were like I didn't enjoy that at all but you were right

no but you were right I had to be like, you're right, you know? So it's, it's the people who like ask for the advice and you tell them. And even if they don't like it very much, they don't accept it's right. I'm like, yeah, no one likes to be told they're wrong, but accepting that you're wrong is fine. You know, you'll come to terms of this. It's the ones who are like, I've asked this advice, you've gone, what about this? And then they're like, da-da-da-da-da-da, you know?

like that to me is so long it's so long you've got to you've got to be able to practice this muscle of like I don't like hearing my medicine but I'll take it like I don't enjoy this cod liver oil but ultimately I'll accept it you know I think that is something yeah and to be honest I don't have anyone in my life that I can think of where they'd ask for advice and then they would like crash out about it Like, I can think of friends who will ask for it and then they don't like what they're here and they get a bit tetchy,

but I can't think of someone who will have like a big... I can think of a couple in my life who would crash out and maybe in a couple of days they'd come around, but like, I can think a couple if I actually was like straight out, here's what I think. Like you behaved in an inappropriate manner in this situation and should do this instead maybe. Obviously, much nice than that.

I think that they would react quite badly. I've definitely... I mean, I can't think of a specific time I've done it. And I think also, like, if I crash out, it means I'm very comfortable with you. So, like, my crash out as a sign of love. That's what one of my ex-friends said. Oh, no. They were like, it means I'm comfortable.

And I was like, no, that means that you have no. I think your crash-ups would be different. But I was like, that means you actually have no regulation. And that you're the way that you think you can talk to me is not actually comfortable. It's not comfortable for me. I mean, the only person I'd crash out with this. my partner is what I mean. Yeah, that's different.

That's different. And that's because with everyone else, I'm like, oh, no, I must be, but, you know. So when I say crash out, I mean like yelling. Oh, no. Yeah, I'm not talking about just like a bit of crying and like being like spiraling. I'm talking about like yelling and hooting and hollering kind of vibes. If I'm hooting and hollering, it's not because I'm crashing out. It's because I've made a choice to hoot and holler.

Yeah, it's like, I'm having a thumb time. time. No, no, no, no, no. Or like, you know, I have, I have shouted at people before, but I've made a very conscious choice, this is what I'm going to do. Yeah. No, I don't, I don't think your crash outs would resemble this person's crash outs, but that was, they said it was because they were so comfortable. I'm like, you're not comfortable actually. You're, you're actually in deep, deep, fight or flight. You're actually, you're actually feeling like I might be an unsafe and harmful person. That's actually what's happening. You're not comfortable at all. Anyway, that's a side note. That's a side note.

I mean, okay, right, I'm trying to think about my most recent crash out. It was actually, it was probably like a month and a bit ago, and I was really stressed about something to do with my family. My family is just like a never-ending vending machine of fuckery. And I'd just like come off her into my mom and it was very weird. It was a really weird sort of conversation and I came off at feeling quite stressed and like I came downstairs into the kitchen

where, you know, we've got a temporary extra housemate at the moment so there was an extra housemate who'd moved in that evening of a housemate, best friend and partner and best friend and partner I think just like misread my mood a bit and started like taking the piss a little bit of like, you know, my family, which most of the time is fine.

Most of the time is fine. And I had a crash out. I did a real stump off and like took my laptop on my arm and like bobbed upstairs like, fuck you. I didn't say fuck you. I think I said, I can't fucking be asked with you, which is the worst I'd go. And then I was like, oh, I think I might be.

stressed about something else, which is my family. And then it turned out that I was completely right to be stressed because later that week, my mom had like this crazy medical crisis. She's fine now. She's completely fine. But like I'm properly crashed out. Like for me, that's a crash out. Me saying to someone like, I can't be asked with you is a big crash out. Yeah, that is, that is a big crash out. Like, that's, that's definitely, there's definitely a crash out. But it's understandable. I'm fucking crashed out, man. I don't think my last crash out But then I apologised

Almost Yeah I mean you live with this person Your best friends with the person I think there's room for that crash out The last time I crashed out on a friend It was probably the person I was talking earlier That was probably the last time I crashed out But my crash out which is just like to go really withdrawn

And very quiet And cut off And that's what I do if I'm crashing out on a friend because I don't feel like I'm not it's not a yelling thing is it you know it's like a this very very very mostly the last time I had a big cry was not about it was actually about family and my friends were soothing me so there was no there was no yeah the thing is when I crash out is literally I just shut down

I just shut down completely so my crash outs don't look like other crash outs but they are horrible my friend once described it as having the sun on you and then the sun going away and like I'm very very cold and it's just I think that would be horrible for a person to experience and it's not it's not nice but I think I've also seen you have a big like you know overwhelm have to have big cry yeah I get hurt up and I'll cry but I if I'm crack if I'm mad at a friend or like I'm crashing out on a friend it will be very muted won't be able to meet their gaze very like okay fine the thing about crash outs and this is one

the things that's so annoying is that like you're at the height of feeling wronged right you just feel so fucking wronged but then you put yourself in a situation where you're like no matter what i do i'm gonna look really silly so like i'd like stormed out the kitchen and i'd like march upstairs on my laptop and then i was like oh but everyone's about to eat downstairs in the kitchen and i'm really hungry and then i like should i order a burrito? should i get like a little crash out delivery. Yeah. Because I can't go and eat that meal. It's like when you're like a kid

and you're like storming off in the dinner table, you're like, but actually I want my food. I've timed this wrong. It was a real like, oh, I've timed this wrong. And so then when my partner came up to be like we're all really sorry.

I was like, thank fuck for that because I'm starving. I bet that would have also played a part. Like, not be funny, but the hangar's going to play a part. and the ability to crash out. Oh, I was hungry and I was stressed. I mean, the thing is, is that, like, I think this is also where the way in which women are malcoded to deal with certain things,

is that, you know, what was happening in this conversation with, like, my mom is that I could tell that things were, like, wrong. And I was trying to be, like, let us introduce. a language of emotions to be like, you know, is this what you may be feeling? This what you may be feeling. Is this what you may be feeling? But she was so, she's so invested in her role and her sense of self is that it was really hard to get to speak in the language of emotions. So when someone is experiencing an emotion and then articulating it as an emotion, you just get something which is fucking batshit, like socially really, really weird to try

and process. And then because I'm like, well, I don't want to, you know, get the pickax out with her and make her feel, you know, drilled at by me. I'm behaving really weirdly too. I'm behaving in a way which is so, so weird. And then when you finish that conversation, if you haven't had any kind of cathartic release or like an ability to sort of get to the resolution or like identify what it really is, you are left with all of this. this really nervous, anxious, kind of volatile energy.

And like, you're taking that around with you. And so I think that this is a situation like, you know, now I'm thinking about this as like the case study, Ashes crash out. You know, the sin of, you know, my best mate and my partner was to sort of be, bit too blunt, bit too um, blase, you know, bit too on the nose. Um, that was actually a lot less difficult to handle than the weirdness that came from self-restraint. Like, you know, I had a bit of a crash out. Everyone apologised within 15 minutes.

It was fine. Like, we were all able to laugh at ourselves and each other afterwards. Everyone found it very funny that I was going to order a temper tantrum burrito. But with the self-restraint, there's nowhere to really, there's no emotion to cling on to because you're not saying anything. Or they're not saying anything. And so then the only way to handle it is politeness, right? Don't step on it.

Don't intrude on it. Yeah, fucking hell. Oh, well, okay. Shall we deal with some other people's problems? So we'll not be polite to other people. Let's be fucking real with them. Submit your problems to us. We really want to hear them.

I want to say we're running low, but we're not running low. We've actually got loads, but we want some new ones. Because I think we're going to have to start a new dock in the new year because now it's got too confusing. It's got too higgledy-piggledy. So if you'd like to give us some dilemmas for end of year

and then want some fresh ones for New Year, send them in if I speak at navarrowmedia.com please remember we will read them out this actually happened recently we were at a show

yes we're at a show and our fantastic live show Manchester actually went so well had Landry Baccaro with us amazing guest

everyone's on great form audience was incredible we love Manchester we heart Manchester we heart Manchester now it's official I think we'll have to go back at some point because it was just slamming

but we did read out a dilemma and later the person told us they'd been in the audience which is maybe a lesson to us to not be so some of these dilemmas we add a little bit of levity a little bit of spice we maybe make too many jokes sometimes I forget that the person might be there and it might really match to them they sent a very nice

message they weren't like pissed off but I was just like we weren't laughing at you I prop well we were but we weren't so just remember and they said in their message they were like even though you warned me a thousand times i still don't actually think you'd read out we do read these out we will be reading them out so shall we read it out now ash take away okay right so this is i'm in big trouble if you're in big trouble medium trouble small trouble email if i speak at navaramedia dot com that's if i speak at navaramedia dot com hi moya and ash love the podcast have been a day

one listener. I started writing this with one dilemma in mind and have kind of ended up here. A cathartic exercise that has put things into perspective for me, so I thank you for the space. There are many other podcasts that do something similar, but the advice you give and the kindness you employ sets you apart from the rest. You're both amazing souls and I wish you all the success and contentment from this life. What about the next life? Special one, huh? Want me to have a shit reincarnation? I see you. I'm writing this about a week after my boyfriend of four years broke up with me, weeks before we were supposed to exchange and complete to honour flat in London. I was 29 when we met on Hinge, him 28, and it was my first real relationship.

We had what I thought was an open and honest relationship, but I've always had a problem with how much he drinks. I had a heavy early 20s, but I now mostly drink socially, I have the occasional glass of wine on a weekday, may have the odd big night out every other month. He, on the other hand, at the beginning of our relationship, would go to the pub after work on multiple nights of the week and would have a big night out most weekends. I recognize that I may sound judgmental with regards to his drinking as it's something I've been shamed in my early 20s for. So just a content note for a discussion of rape. I have a history of rape which happened when I was drunk at 22 on a solo holiday. His lack of control when he was around alcohol was a trigger for me.

He knew about my past history with sexual assault, but I had only made the connection of the trigger to of the trigger after an emotional therapy session early this year. We discussed it once at that time, but never again since. I want to reiterate that the relationship was not bad at all. We loved each other, gotten brilliantly, the physical intimacy was up and down in frequency, but some of the best sex I ever had. There was true emotional intimacy, and I really cared for him, and I think he did for me. We'd spend a lot of time in each other's space as we both work from home slash hybrid,

and we never got sick of each other. We'd spoken about the future and we thought that we both wanted the same things in life, but his timeline for marriage kids was definitely more speculative than mine. The end came about following weekday, another night that was supposed to be a quiet one, but ended up with him staying at a nearby friend's house

after getting too drunk. I was angry, upset and had made that very clear. He went to stay with his parents for the weekend, came back to our flat on the Sunday, broke up with me, me in the flat alone. He says we are fundamentally incompatible. He claims that I was the one driving the relationship forward, and he is not sure of who he is, needs space to grow up. I was, and am hurt, but recognised I was trying to mould him into the partner I wanted him to be instead

of accepting who he was. My family and friends have rallied around me, but I'm still quite heartbroken. We'd already given notice on the property we were renting together, and so come the new year, I'll be moving back to my parents' house for the first time in 15 years. I've always been fiercely independent was already living by myself in London when I met this person. I was a late bloomer but by my late 20s I had had multiple sexual partners but no relationships to speak of. I thought I was coming to peace with the fact that marriage, partnership, kids might not be part of my story when I met him. During our relationship I had thought I was building a life with someone and this is why I think I was trying to make this relationship work for so long. I didn't realise how much I truly

wanted to have a family to call my own. Fortunately, I'm able to move back in with my parents outside the M25, but I can't help but feel like this is a regression. My career isn't a bit of a right at the moment, but I'm fortunate enough to have worked abroad multiple times and could easily pursue that avenue for a few years to build up some more savings. But I love my life in Zone 2, London, and I feel cheated out of it. 2025 prices means that I cannot afford to live here by myself anymore. I recognise the opportunity I have but I'm not sure I want to be by myself in a foreign country again and feel like I'm resigning myself to a life of loneliness. Am I making a rash decision applying to jobs abroad? I know 33 is not old, but now I've acknowledged what I really want.

The idea of not getting it in the future is scary. I feel like a failure and it was more at peace at 29. Help. We'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks again for reading. Even if you don't use this for the podcast, lots of love to you both, special one. there's so much going on it's really hard I mean your question that you've put forward is am I rash in applying to jobs abroad and my answer to that is yes so that's the basic place I'll start from yes

and I don't mean that you shouldn't go and work aboard and that you shouldn't consider it but I think a week after a breakup is a very clear through line of running away from a feeling running away from the fear of failure, running away from this thing didn't work out, I can go find it over here. But as someone who has a history of doing that, let me tell you, you're still going with you. And you love your life where you are. This painful thing has happened, but it hasn't changed the fact that you love your life where you are.

And you could still afford to live in Zone 2 London. if you manage to have a two-bed flat with this person you can afford to live in Zone 2 London somewhere it might be with housemates it might be a shared ownership thing I've just done that which everyone warns you about but is actually kind of fine I'll be honest if you find the right one you have enough money for a deposit with someone else

you could buy with a friend and have a contract like you're going to live there for 10 years or 5 years and if someone was you know there were ways and means of doing this thing If you have enough money, though, to rent in Zone 2 London in a one-bed flat with a partner, you can afford to rent a room. There's lots of rooms that aren't a million pounds. I know it's a scare story and I know it seems horrible, but like you can do that. I think what's actually happening here is you're like looking at your past and your patterns

and the fact that you didn't get into a relationship until 28 and you're applying that to your future. And you're saying, well, it's going to be another 28 years until I get into a relationship or find someone again. That's not how it works. that is not how it works once you've broken the seal on something like a relationship

and you've experienced it it's actually very hard to go back per se if you really are committed to getting the life you want you're already in therapy like you go to therapy you seem to have a lot of tools

at your disposal to keep digging into why is it that I went for this person because I think that's the most interesting thing about this dilemma you've now realised what you want is a family and a, you know, a committed life with someone.

So the question is, was the person that you were with before? Were they someone that you really thought you could build that with? You gave us extra context as well, which we're not reading out, but from everything you said that person was not, you know, on the level of someone who would be a partner in life. You saw them as a project, you saw them as someone to improve, you thought that they would get better in different ways that would suit you more. especially in the drinking.

And from what you've said about their drinking habits, they sound like they have a compulsive problem. That is not somebody who, I mean, you know, people procreate and build a life with alcoholics all the time, but it doesn't sound like that's something you're prepared to do. So why were you attempting to? That's the questions I think you should ask. Why do you see this person as a project?

And whether in the next relationship or the next time you date, etc., who are you attracted to? Why are you attracted to them? Those are the questions I think you need to be asking. what love do you think you deserve, not to get too corny, if you want to build this life with someone else. But there are lots and lots of people out there who are looking for a committed relationship.

And there's so many scare stories in the dating landscape, so many things like you'll never meet someone, you'll never do this, you'll never do that. I think that a lot. And then sometimes you do just meet something. You're like, oh, oh yeah, this is what it's meant to be like. You don't know, but you're like, this is what it's meant to be like. This is the ease, you know, this is the kind of thing.

and the things that change are usually you've gone to do you've worked on yourself and you're more open you understand yourself better at least in my experience at least in my experience i've had when did i start dating properly when i was 20 maybe i got my first boyfriend i thought i would never ever fall in love and i've done it three different times you know and i'm sure i will do it again in the future and in the interims you're like well i'll never meet someone and then you meet people who you really like or you meet people who you like a bit and you look around you get older and you're like this thing does happen and a lot of it is down to me and some of it's down to luck but some of it's down to me as well um and also i'm not going to lie if you want to get married you could literally

get married lots of people just get married they don't even have to love that person that much they just have the shared values and like well we're going to get married and when you look at the stats between love marriages and arranged marriages arranged marriages have more longevity and lasting love because they learn to love each other, whereas love matches start very high and then drop very low because of the way that we position romantic love. There are so many ways to build a life with someone if you want it.

I think what this dilemma is more about is why did you persist with this person for so long? Ash. You are so right, and that is exactly what I was going to pick up on, right? The dilemma is not about whether or not to work abroad for a bit, because the thing is, you've already said what it is you really want from life. If you really want a marriage, you really want a family. And you really want to do that in a context where you have connection already.

And I have a friend. I've got a friend who spent a lot of time traveling. And they were constantly mourning a sense of disconnection and lack of community. And I was like, well, that's because what you're doing and what it is you really want are not in alignment. You know, you're going from, you know, beautiful Southeast Asian city to beautiful Southeast Asian city to beautiful South East Asian City and then you're going, but why do I feel so disconnected from community? And I'm like, because you're not staying somewhere long enough. Like that's why. And it took them quite a while to like bring those things into alignment. So I think you already have an

understanding that, you know, there's something that you really want and that isn't fully coherent with the urge to flee, you know, the urge to flee to somewhere else and to work abroad. the real question and the real thing that you've got to do is make sense of this relationship and it's not about writing off what was good and it's not about making it one-dimensional and it's not about characterizing it is solely dysfunctional or solely defined by alcohol but as always people put the most important things in the email and you already know that your trauma to do with sexual violence and to do with alcohol has hugely shaped your experience of this relationship

and your ex-partners drinking I would maybe go one further which is why is it you chose somebody who's drinking you experience at the very least as dysfunctional and triggering and endangering? I think it might be something to do with wanting to change your own story by changing someone else's. So you choose somebody with a relationship to alcohol that you find dangerous and dysfunctional and self-destructive and you try and change that for them because if you change the ending to your story, maybe you change what happened in yours. You know, these things aren't rational, but they are the sort of emotional narratives that can be.

at the wheel for us, particularly in relationships, right? We bring all this stuff to relationships where we want to change the past by changing someone else's future. And I think that it's probably important that you didn't marry this guy, not just about him and not just about his drinking. moving. But maybe your ability to understand yourself in relationships as well and what it is you're really seeking. Yeah. I'm not moving in with him. He did you a huge favour. He was really right to recognise there was a fundamental incompatibility. And all the things that you've

picked out, you know, like that you really get on, that it was some of the best sex you've ever had, I promise you that will come again. Because like I've had partners. I loved so much, like so much it still hurts sometimes when I think about how, you know, we feel about each other now. I said to some of the other day, I was like, love is very painful and he said to me, but it's very beautiful too, which was lovely. And with them, like, I had all those things,

but they come again because what builds those things is the emotional intimacy. And you take into your next relationships and next, next connections, lessons, if you thought doing the work or whatever, but like you take those lessons and you think, okay, these traits are things that I really want. These are things actually I can't deal with and I shouldn't deal with them

because they're not good for me. They're not good for the other person either. If I started dating someone who has alcohol problems, my God, the level of damage we would do to each other is insane because of the trauma that I'm bringing around that, the way I would try and change them, the way I would resent them yet try and fix them, what they would get from me is like shame

and the feeling that they're not good enough, it would just be a shit show so I can't do that I can't do that I don't date people who I can tell from the get go to have compulsive habits around alcohol it's just not something I can get into for my sake and their sake

but things like emotional intimacy during sex like that just comes like the best sex comes when you're just emotionally connected someone and when you you'll find out you'll find out I know it's very hard because you're just straight out of the breakup it's raw 33 is very young though

honey like you're really young there's you've got so much life to live and so many people to meet so many so much love to experience in different forms like it's it is exciting and you'll feel very raw um for the next like six months and that will probably be some of the best times of your life as well because not you will be sad but my god you feel everything you feel everything it's like keyed up I wish I'd go through another breakup just so that I could feel that raw again that's actually always something I'm seeking now which is like okay I was really open the worst thing ever had happened but it was also the best thing because I'd finally been like cracked open and I was allowing myself to feel things and because my worst fears had been realized I'd broken up with someone I'd loved very much I could actually kind of relax a bit and just like feel

so I think those are all there and that your hyper independence and all that kind of stuff I think definitely have a look at that because often it signals a lot of barriers up and only certain people might be able to get past them but you I think you're on the right track

I see it's good for you Breakups are a really, really good for you. Like, I think about my 20s as being defined by particular breakups. And each one was like a fucking rocket under self-development and self-knowledge and agency and growing up and growing into the person that I am. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, you know what special one?

Best of luck. Lots of love. You will get through this. You can stay in zone two. Promise you. If you move, make sure that you just set up. temporary, first of all, to see how you like it. Don't just move your whole fucking live.

Six months, try it out just from, just from someone who knows, but you sound pretty happy here. And I would make the life that you want here. That sounds wise. Should we wrap it up? Let's wrap this up. Okay, you've been. I've been Ash Sarker.

I've been more Lady MacLean, and this has been, if I speak. We'll see you again next week. Bye. Bye. Thank you.