If I Speak - 94: Resentment, hostility, scarcity… is this modern dating? w/ Jordan Stephens

Episode Date: December 23, 2025

Ash and Moya are joined by Rizzle Kicks star and author Jordan Stephens to talk about changing attitudes to gender and relationships. Are we regressing into essentialist ideas of gender? Is having a boyfriend embarrassing now? Plus: advice for a disappointed wife – with help from our audience. Recorded live at EartH in East London […]

Holy shit. Hello, Special Ones! Hello, Special Ones! so much for being with us tonight on our last live show of 2025. And it's big, a big 2025, has it not? It's been such a big 2025. We went from clearly a big 2025 for you, and I want to know what happened. But we went from being like, ooh, can we do live shows? And oh, how is it going to go to selling out Earth Dawson? Yeah. You're all having to get close and personal because so many of you bought tickets. So thank you.

Thank you from the bottom of our hearts. And we're not alone. We didn't sell out alone. Let's be fair. Tonight, we are joined by Jordan Stevens, musician, broadcaster, podcaster, as we agreed. Okay, yeah, fair enough. And author of avoidance, drugs, heartbreak and dogs. So if you could give a massive round of applause to Jordan.

And obviously, I am Oloy McLean. And with me tonight is, as you always say, comrade, co-pilot, what is your name? My name is Ash Sarker, but when we were backstage, when we were backstage, we were asking, you know, oh, are you a golden retriever, or like, oh, are you a black cat? And I decided that I would identify myself as the king of the animal kingdom, the Soviet tanker T-34. I can't believe that got a cheer. I said Ash was actually a German shepherd, but we're going with Soviet tank, which is fine.

Shall we get into the meat of the matter today? Not an animal? No. I mean, tell that to the German Fair Mac. It was an animal back then. That's my house mate. That I can be laughing. All right, so we have, as tradition, an icebreaker.

So you know Condéin asked 73 questions. So what? You know, Condon asked 73 questions. Yes, sure. But no one's got that attention span. So I've got three icebreaker. questions for you. Are you ready? Yes. Okay, right, question the first. Best UK rapper of all time. Fuck! Dave. Why, why? I just, I don't know. There might be a bit of recency bias.

Like, I feel like I'm missing, you know, maybe people who had led the way, dizzy, maybe, but just Dave's intelligence, he produces, and also he obviously speaks up about certain things, and he does it in a fucking dope way. So, yeah, I'm a big Dave fan. I thought you'd say Dave, but then I thought you also might say Cano for some reason. Yeah, Cano's cool. No, Cano is cool. But I just think, when I listen to Dave, I just, I get, he said,

he has said verbatim like two phrases or quotes or lyrics that I couldn't believe was coming out of the mouth of someone so young. It just is, I can't, yeah, I get blown away. I'm in awe, actually, of some of the things that Dave says. Not everything he says. Sometimes I'm like, come on, Dave. But also, he's just totally normalised the fact that his rap name's Dave. Can we just have a moment for that?

That's fucking nuts. That's the whole channel. Before we hit the next question. Before we hit the next question, audience, we want to get you to give ice breakers in a second. So think of some questions you want to ask any of us, all of us, and we will come to you with a roving mic in a second. But for now, back to your ice break. Question two.

if you had to nuke one app from existence, which one are you picking and why? Wait, I've just remembered that I also love Little Sims. Wait, is it, I'm stuck there because I think Sims has been more daring with her music choice. Oh, fuck, man. All right, joint, king and queen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go. Sorry, what was the next one? If you had to nuke one app from existence, which one would you choose? Nuk an app. rid of it. No one could use it anymore. Fucking, what's it called? X. Fuck that shit. Sorry.

But only like five people are on it. There's like four and waste of you and me. Yeah, but people are always just sending me the wildest tweets and I'm like, you have to stop going on this fucking cesspit. It's just murder and sex. That's it. Don't threaten me with a good time. Question three. Final question before we go over to you. Who were you most nervous about reading your memoir?

Because you'd lay yourself bare in it. Yes. For my exes? I think probably just straight up, you know what I mean? Did you have to send it to them before publication? Yeah. Well, yes. One.

No, I did. I did. One I had to, of course. Out of respect. Oddly, you don't, like, you know, all this stuff is legally checked. So I can't say anything defamatory. and that was checked. Because I've got all the friends who have written about their exes

and they was like, oh, I have to send it to them to get legally passed and they're like willing for it to go out. Yeah, yeah. So if you include things that require their like approval, yeah. But mine was in a way where, you know, it's purely from my perspective and then it's actually more of like a, there's a larger question of the ethics of that. like am I entitled to my own perspective on my own life if it includes someone else?

Yeah. See, this is why we asked you on, but I was going to say that truth is an absolute defense in defamation cases. So if I wrote that my ex is an asshole, that would be true and therefore not defamation. Which ex? You're always so nice about them all.

I'll tell you some stories when I'm not often. You can say legally that you think that are an asshole. No, factually they are. No, but you can't say that. You can't say that. That is defamation. But also, there's the defense. of reasonable opinion, it's a reasonable opinion to hold, given the facts. I've got some unreasonable opinions about my exes.

Right. I love that that was an icebreaker. That's like a fucking deep-assed question. I think before we've... A little bit fun, little bit fun. Who'd you have to show the book to before they fucked you over? Ash has previously asked questions like, and what's your relationship like with your father?

That was easy. Well, my other icebreaker was going to be favourite member of the UN Security Council. No, fuck that shit. China. It's China. Okay, can we get the house lights up a little bit? I want to see faces. Right, let's get some hands. Lights up, roving mic.

Where's our roving mic? Down here, pink and green jumper. Yes, you. Hit us. Hello. Any favourite memoirs that you've read? Favorite memoirs? Favorite memoirs?

Do you want to go first? Is it specifically to me? Yeah. Oh, fuck. You guys go first. Is it specifically to Jordan? Yeah, sure. Ah.

There's the one. Prozac Nation. Oh, yeah. Elizabeth Wurzell. Not Elizabeth. Elizabeth Wurzell. She also wrote... Elizabeth Gilbert Day,

Wurtsel, too many. That's kind of cool because it was like pretty raw. I'm going to think of another one while you guys answer. I've got one. I really like Mike Skinner's memoir because it reveals him to be

a not very good person. The best memoir is too. And I think that is a very brave memoir. Mike Skinner, I'm sorry if you're here, but you do come off as a see you next Tuesday in the book. What does that spell? R.E.S.E.

And one of my favorite bits is where he devotes. So he grew up in a very socialist household in Birmingham. And he is a classic kid of the 80s. Like he is full on yuppie. He was like stealing money for the McDonald's, tills, selling pills and discount, all this kind of thing. And he devotes like two, maybe more than two, three pages in the middle of the book just to talking about like why the UK needs to follow the US's model of health insurance.

He's like, I'm going to break from talking about these gigs right now. Privatized healthcare. Well, that's what we need. So I really like that memoir because I was like, I went in being like a bit of a Mike Skinner devotee. Is that why you say it? Devotee, yeah. Whatever.

You know, Peter Mandelson went mad, one of the best clips of all time. And I came out thinking like, this guy's more interesting. I thought because he's a can't. Anyway, that's my phone, like that. More hands. More hands. Another hand. Should we go from maybe from somewhere? Oh, have you had a Satakur's memoir?

That's dope. That's, that's, that memoir's fucking sick. That was a big recommendation. There's a hat where, we're hand over here. We've got a hand over here, grey jumper, yes. Hello, this is a shame as a quest that I brought John's book with me because my girlfriend brought it for me for Christmas. Oh, sick.

So if you'd like to sign it, we'll meet you back later. Sorry. That is not an icebreaker question. No, no, no, no, public shaming. You knew. You knew that wasn't an icebreaker question. I have an actual icebreaker question. Okay, okay, what's the question? Fine.

I love that question. Yes. Would you rather be a cowboy, ninja or a robot? What was the third? A cowboy, a ninja or a what? Robots. Robot. A robot? A fucking ninja.

What are you talking about? 100% straight up. You said robot. You'd rather be a robot. Obviously. Isn't that a paradox? Can you even be a robot? You'd rather be a ninja, but, but here's one of the things.

about, like obviously if you're a cowboy, you're like complicit in the displacement of Indigenous Americans. Right. If you're a Native American cowboy, there's flat cowboys, there's all kinds of cowboys. There's Compton Cowboys, yeah, but they're a recent thing. Yeah, but what, you didn't specify the cowboy period. I'm just, I'm just saying. Compton Cowboys are sick, I can't lie.

But some ninjas would be trained just for one mission, one mission in which they knew they would die, but they still had to execute the assassination perfectly. So being a ninja would be sick if you were like a rinse and reuse ninja. But if you were a... What, you're saying? Ninjas were kamikaze's? There was some ninjas where it was just one mission. You wouldn't make it out alive, but you had to kill the, you know, emperor or whatever.

I remember when I was a kid, you know you'd have stories as a kid that you couldn't instantly disprove with Google. One of those stories I was told as a kid which I believed for a long time was that there was a service, whether it's in America or otherwise, called Ninja Burger, and that you would call them up, order the burger, and then you just have to and at some point it was in your house so you just have to just hope that you knew which room they put it in I really believed that kind of deliveroo isn't it yeah just like it's there somewhere good luck shall we take one more question one more

question one more where should we take it from there's someone there yes you yeah you with your hand up he looks nervous you just put it down keep it up keep it up yes all consequences included what would you put in room 101 so like the thing you'd remove from the world forever is stolen from my year starmer stolen from my year 8 English class Zuckerberg I probably go in there Mark Zuckerberg no really is that bad I think I wouldn't have a lot of my friendships and life was with no socks does this count there's no socks no keep going I can't cuss your ones out What were you going to defend with Mark Zuckerberg then, that you can communicate with your friends?

Because I've had someone else. No, no, no. I think I wouldn't have a lot of... My life would just be so different. It's capitalist realism. I can't imagine my life without Facebook. See, I would like to... Sorry, sorry, sorry, I need this to sit. You can't imagine your life without Facebook.

Yep. Now I can. Now I don't use it at all. I can't. But like, it's the fabric of our early lives. I'm not saying that's a good thing. I'd probably be in a better place. I'd be a better place mentally.

maybe physically too yeah maybe but financially do you know what actually it's what's his face who founded Twitter oh Jack Dorsey

Jack Dorsey I couldn't live without Twitter being in my life really I mean my career would be blown up yeah that but Zuckerberg yeah I'll give you that he is very evil

I don't know there's loads of stuff that are going room on it what are you saying about what thing is is that you were going for like conceptual and political and I wanted to be like oh you know capitalism

but there was this girl who said I had a really squinty eye And ever since And ever since I've been trying to work out which one she meant That's savage Oh God, no, she was I mean a super villain

And I kind of respect her But I think her And I have no beef with that I think that is a very reasonable thing to do Okay But thing is, it's like she's got the last laugh every day I wake up and I think about her And I've not seen her for ages

You have lovely big eyes. I don't know, which one. I'm scared I've got a lazy eye, but the laziness can move. Your eyes are very active, I would say. Okay, thank you everyone for your ice breakers. Excellent questions. Ooh, I'm hissing. It's always hissing at me.

At the end... Mosquitoes. I still don't... Anyway. At the end, I believe we're doing a mini Q&A, depending on time, so think of more questions you can ask us. time dependent. Okay, but we are here for a big chat, right? We're here to have a big debrief, a DMC, as you will. It's 3am, some of our friends have gone home, only the little

hard ones are here, we're locked in, it's just us. Call the Albanians. The Albanians have come. The Albanians have come and I am prepped and ready to go, so I'm going to start talking fast. No, no. I haven't introduced. Not me anymore, no more. I've left that life behind. I've left it too. I've left it too. Listen, I never respond to any of Romeo's text anymore. Yeah, conceptually, conceptually we've called the Albanians. But he does text me more than my dad. Same.

Oh my God, me too. Okay, right. I have an intrusive thought, special ones, and I wanted to bring it to this giant stage today to discuss. And the title of this intrusive thought is, why do we hate the ones we want to love us? Let me unpack, okay? So, big topic, big show.

I thought, let's give the people something they're always baying for. So let's start with talking a bit about romantic love. Let's start there. Something I've been hearing a lot, you know, on the grapevine and on the streets, is that modern dated is finished. Cut the cameras, dead ass, everyone go home, it's over. The streets are dead, right? The main frames through which I hear people, myself included sometimes,

Talk about love and dating is usually resentment, hostility, scarcity, and mistrust of others. Bar a few loved up couples who are like, it's actually so perfect and we never argue. I never argue thing that's suspicious as fuck. It is suspicious, but we'll get on to that. So something I saw the other day on... I just missed my mouth with the water. It's how smooth I am. That's how I got my girl.

Something I saw the other day, for example, on the top click, what I'm saying, TikTok on TikTok, on the clock app was someone's dating non-negotiables in 2026. Oh my God. And this young woman said, and I've watched a couple of her things, she said, she had a voice dripping with disdain. She said she didn't want anyone who doesn't make within 3,000 pounds of her salary, someone who doesn't have, who has a job, not a career, because it's not the same ambition.

She didn't want anyone who had social media because Instagram and TikTok are for the girls. Toxic. She said, no one with my job. Mommy or Daddy issues, which is everyone. The fuck? Everyone. And at the end. The foundational premise of Freudian psychoanalysis.

She doesn't want either. She wants both only. Yeah. Combined. And at the very end, only partially joking, she said, she wants a man who is seen and heard very little. And I kind of heard myself. I could introduce her to my dad.

I've not seen in decades. My dad, too. I've got crazy. But in this, I heard, in her contempt, I heard a little bit of myself, and it scared me, okay? It's so, such a mystery as to why she's single. No, she had a boyfriend. I'm not getting into her.

I could get into her details, but, okay, so right now, having a boyfriend is embarrassing, having a girlfriend is expensive, Enbees want to love bomb you, and, you know, and then leave you for someone in their organizing circles in three months. Everyone has a maladaptive attachment style, and is protecting their peace.

Apps mean no one can connect. I used to talk like this two weeks ago. Yesterday. But more and more, I am quite concerned with how essentialist it feels. You know, we're attaching certain traits to gender. We make proclamations about how romantic connections are forever upended by the introduction of apps. They can never go back. And I'm worried, guys, I'm worried by the pessimistic.

jaded ways that we speak about dating and our experience of it. And I worry that those ways may not actually be helping us find the love we seek so much. So, ultimately, the place I want to start with, why is there such loathing for those we claim we want love for them? And I thought I'd start with the polarization between some genders. And right now, I'm looking at you. Right now, why do you hate women? I think there's a bit of...

Well, they started in 1990. I don't know. I feel like there's been a bit of a resurrection of like, there's two genders and women are from Venus and men are from Mars dialogue. And I read a very good piece the other day on Substack, which I'm just going to quote briefly before I stopped talking for a long time because I've talked for ages now.

And it's by Sam Jennings, right? And it was responding obliquely to the viral is having a boyfriend embarrassing piece. And here is a little extract. Don't say that I never bring you anything. Right. Extract. I can't help but think. that what the dialogue amounts to, in the end, is an unfinished, never-answered question

which men and women will be arguing over forever. Who feels more? I feel the most, says the whole of the internet. No one feels more than me. Such is the credo of the web. If the internet had doors, if it had huge gates to block off the start of its brain-rotting labyrinth, those doors would surely read, never forget. possibly lonely, sadly drooping digital user, no one, no one, has ever felt more than you do now. When men get together online and talk about how awful women are, or women get together online and talk about how awful men are, then from the start, they are already embroiled in a pointless project. Who wants to pick up what I'm putting down?

Me? Oh, okay. I read that substack, and I also thought that was really cool to see that. that, you know, obviously social media has created a space in which I think for me, social media is one thing, obviously, where I think there's been more of a pressure to be, for us to focus our aesthetic values, which I don't think constitutes real connection. It's one quite immediate part of connection, important, but not everything by any stretch. But the algorithm is what's crazy to me, because if you do, if you've had a breakup or someone's pissed you up or whatever, you only got to click a couple of videos

saying something disparaging about the other sex and then they actually recommend you more of those videos. So quite quickly you get locked into all the reasons why your initial point of fury was right which I don't think works. But I did also read another substack which was really cool

and I would love to know what you guys think of this which identified the fact that this person feels in the dating market people have lost actual interest in other people And I feel this actually in society. I think that is the parasycial trickle-down.

When you're in a relationship with somebody, are you actively trying to learn about them? Like, are you curious? I don't know how many questions we're wanting to actually ask to the other sex or to the other person or to whoever, maybe to the same sex. I think curiosity is something that I worry

we're losing connection to. And it's, in my mind, up there, maybe top three most important qualities in a person is to be curious, like ask questions. Like that's such an important part of life, no? Ask questions, but I actually care about the answer, because there's so many videos online, which is like, this is how to ask the best questions.

This is how to be charming. This is how to have Riz, and it's like a list of questions. And there's like games, like we are not really strangers, which creates like a false framework of questioning, but it's not actually coming from you. It's like, we're trying to learn these things if I wrote. I know you're gonna have to say, come on. Well, okay, so there's a question where I'm genuinely interested in both of your answers,

which is like when you were young and you were, you know, maybe in your early teens, where did you learn about the gender that you were attracted to? Because I went to an all-girls school, and I don't know if you've met teenage girls, but they are fucking deranged. So it was like you were in this sort of like hot box for five days of the week with other teenage girls, and the way in which we would talk about boys was eye-watering. And I remember being in year seven and hearing the year-nine girls talk about something that was known as dry sex. And I was like, what?

Like it was anatomically, wow. Dry-humping, year-nine. They called it dry sex. They called it dry sex. But I'm not sure. That says you definitely went to a girls' school because it was dry-humping in the co-eds. I'm surprised that they were still dry-humping in year nine. My school was pretty active.

Like dry humping was the year 7th thing I love it you're like what kind of I'll just be real What kind of sneaky school did you go to I remember that you just unlocked like six memories bro I used to be dry humping What the fuck Like what

I mean like but I mean for a while Dry humping was my Mount Olympus I could see it but I could never get to the Mount Olympus that's an interesting use of Like it was just I was like wow I wonder what it's like up there So when did you have your first dry hump last week

I mean I was learning about what boys wanted from other girls who were wildly exaggerating what they'd done or what they'd not done and then like reading these magazines

and then when you'd see the boys from the nearby all boys school and you would try out some of the things that you learned on them like this is what you should talk about and this is how you should hold yourself and this is how I should look at them I remember them looking at me like what are you doing

yeah I think that that was obviously hugely embarrassing and mortifying, but I wonder if that's gotten worse, because people live such digitally immersed lives, that where you're learning about the gender that you're attracted to

is so suffused by negativity. I mean, at least I only did this sort of weird little, like, you know, trying to do a seductive glance, and it was more like, you know? A squint? Yeah, it was a squint. It was a squint.

But yeah, so it was a squint. So where did you learn about the gender that you're attracted to? She just went to co-ed schools. You were? I just went to co-ed schools. You went to what? Co-ed educational. Oh, what?

Mixed schools. A mixed school? Yeah, just like. Isn't that just school? Yeah, exactly. But Ash went to one crazy. Not for me. No, no, but that's funny that you, that like, from your perspective, the base level of school is single sex.

You have to specify. No, it's because Ash had already, um, right. Ash had already set the terms, which was that she went to a single-sex school. So I was, I was like, no, I went to a, I didn't want to a, I didn't want normal school I don't want to invalidate your experience I think that I did go to a normal school yeah yeah I got I mean I'm pretty sure I got my first direction why is everyone laughing I I got my first direction I think watching Britney Spears hit me baby one more time video oh we all did but but I was like five

The reason why I think I got an erection was because I didn't understand what an erection was, but my godfather was just coming out of the kitchen after the video finished. And he turned to my mum and went, Jordan really liked that video. But, Ash, I think you touched on a point here, the digitally atomised lives. But can I ask? Can I ask a question, though? Yeah. Why did I actually write about this in my book because it actually. spun me out. How at five did I find that? How have I internalised ideas of what sexual

at five? But I think that's a very like primal human thing. I remember like sexual awakening is very young and it's just people don't want to talk about it because that's too young to like Aladdin in the waistcoat. Yeah. I've said the story many times. News of the world, Melby, threesome with a stripper. Robbie Williams taking his skin off. Rock DJ. Wait, wait, what? I don't want to get off peace here. Wait, wait, wait. You got turned on by him turning, it's taking his skin off. That's a, that's a, that's a, that's a kink.

2001, I was about five. Anyway, I don't want to get, I don't want to get too far away because I really want us to talk about, like, why do we resent so, why do we resent people that we want to love us so much? And this idea of being in the, in the bubble that you talked about, when you're online, I don't, I think it's important, like, you know, when you first learn about the other gender or the genders you're attracted to you, But I think more and more, like, where we live our lives makes such a difference. So if you're living in a walled-off world that starts telling you, and all the algorithms are geared towards you, they profiled you, right? And as soon as you log... So I was with, like, a guy the other day, and he was saying,

oh, as soon as I log onto this platform, it just sees that I'm, like, a young man, and I like football. So I usually get served this racist comedian, and I was like, I've never seen that man in my life. I would never get the same feed as that person. And it's, like, instantly, it's segregating us in really essentially. this terms just based on the profiling. My YouTube algorithm is so convinced that I'm a particular kind of toxic man

because all I watch is woodworking, wrestling and football highlights that I just get served the sexual harassment prevention adverts. Oh, that's a positive algorithm. No, that's tailored to you, sorry, Ash. So it's sort of like, if you see a woman on the train, don't touch her, and I'm like, I'll try. That's actually really good news that you were served there. I'm really glad.

I didn't realize... Hasn't stopped me yet, but we'll see. I do agree. But also, I think just like, like you said before on an instinctive animal level, I think once we realize that our attraction can mean that somebody else holds some kind of power, you know? And if we haven't been equipped with the understanding

of how to get it back, sometimes we do that through... You know, there's like that old archetype, isn't it, of like, teasing the person you fancy? I remember I actually got Again I wrote about it in my books it blew my mind I got bullied by a girl all through year seven Like as in when I was walking through school She would just throw food at me

The whole time And then the next year Her mate text me And when do you want to go out with What's her name And I went definitely not She's a fucking dick And then they were like

If you don't go out with her We'll make her life a living hell So Not sexual blackmail Yeah yeah so I got bullied into this relationship, so I then had to try and figure out in my schedule how to avoid her for two weeks. Anyway, my point is, it blew my mind that she wanted to go out of me because she was just bullying me. So, like, there must have been this odd perception of, like, I don't

know, that's the only way we can engage in that. I think you touched on something really important there, which is this vulnerability, and it's the fear of being vulnerable. And the story you first told as well about, like, getting the erection and Brittany, why is it sticking your mind so much because your godfather said that thing afterwards. Did you feel like, singled out, embarrassed when he said that? No, I only really figured it out when I was writing my book. Because I was trying to think of like when I was first awakened. No, he was chill, man.

He was cool. He was chill, he was chill. But with the girl, there's like, she feels vulnerable and she responds by throwing food at you. Yeah, that for real. I mean, but the thing is, is that I think that sort of sparring has been an inherent part of flirtation. No, no, no, but I'm saying like, she's in year seven. She obviously doesn't know, right? Like, she's trying to work this stuff out

and what do you do with these feelings? And you sort of have an answer... Well, you know, throwing food until someone goes out with you, got me married, you know? So don't slack it off. But, like, you know, I can sort of see how, you know, it's like EQ levels, right? And something is way out of whack

and other things, like, aren't turned up high enough. That element of sort of sparring and back and forth and sort of play fighting can become so like obscenely out of proportion and that's how you end up, you know, pick up artists who come up to you on the street and insult you.

And every time it does make me stop because I'm just like, why did you think this would work? Why did you think it would work well for you that you'd be like, oh, I like your hair but your coat is ugly? I'd be like, what? I'm trying to neg you on the street. Especially if you're in central London

because they're on like little courses. So they just sort of like pounce on a woman who's like walking slowly enough which I often am because I've got really weak ankles and so they're like Wait sorry let's pick up artistry courses happening today Yes in central London Yo I thought that shit died in like 2008

No they are kind of slowing down a little But it's taking something Which is like kind of Reader, I married him But like it was a It's something which has got this kernel of truth Which is like there is a sort of like play fighting and aspiring And it's just something which has been like

turned all they're up to hear. There is something that I wanted to say about the, it's embarrassing to have a boyfriend article, which is in Fogues by Shantay Joseph, and it's gone wildly viral. One of the things that I found really interesting about it is that it took what is effectively a conversation about how do people behave on social media and that people have, or women, heterosexual women, have stopped posting their male romantic partner because they're scared that one day this guy is going to turn out to embarrass them or the relationship might not work out. And it took this thing which is about social media and then applied it to everything. And I don't think it quite works. I think

that we still feel as wrapped up in the sort of status symbol of relationship in the real world as we did before. But the social media dimension is really interesting because it sort of recreates what it's like to be at school where it's not just about going out with someone and going,

how do I feel about you? It's how is it being perceived by this audience of my peers. And social media just makes that sort of permanent and all the time and also really big. And so when I was reading this article, and I saw, you know, quotes from women who were in their 30s, like me and older, saying, oh, you know, if a relationship broke down, it'd be so worried about, you know, kind of losing face. I was like, well, this is an extended period of adolescence.

Because I'm, you know, obviously, if my relationship broke down, I'd be really sad, but my main problem would be, like, who gets custody of the cat? And it would be me. It's in my name at the vet, and I made sure of this at the start. But, like, you know, the pain of the breakup would be, like, a real emotion. pain and it would be about the sort of shattering of the foundation of my life going oh I'm going to have to take down some pictures of Instagram like it just wouldn't it wouldn't factor but it's sort of I think it would really I think it would I mean it's ridiculous but it's ridiculous but it's real I think it's become a standard and I think

actually does link to the point we were making earlier about the girl throwing fruit because if it's this extended adolescence right and people there's been a regression almost to this idea that everyone's watching all the time it's a high school environment, social media is a high school environment, you don't have the words and language for all the things you're actually feeling, which is resentment, fear, so scared of getting hurt, so scared of being intimate because you'll do it wrong and it will be on show for everyone. And I think when people say, I'm scared of deleting pictures, they're not saying they're scared of deleting pictures. Like, that's just a stand-in for what they're really

scared, which is the humiliation of, like, claiming someone publicly and then being made to look a mug, because that's what people are scared of now, being made to look a mug. But the fear of being made to look a mug is actually just stopping people being vulnerable and stopping them find love. And I will say this as someone who's had that fear for so long and is trying something different with dating. And my God, wow, turns out if you actually talk to people about things that you're feeling and if you're a bit vulnerable with them, you can create a pretty good connection. Yes, I agree. Yeah, man. And also, I think people can be enhanced in real life. I think people always think that it's safer to hide behind the internet curation. I think in real

life, somebody can really, you know, I've fallen into, of course, in the past, I've fallen into an obsession over beauty in an aesthetic sense, but I really, one big part of growth for me was reminding myself what I actually find, like, beautiful in a really guttural way. Like, it's cool if people are pretty, that's nice. But I've seen, like, faces change in, like, as they're telling me a story, or with an act of generosity, or, like, I suddenly find someone more attractive. I worry that people have lost that. But I think this is one of the things about dating apps. So I found it like such an alienating experience when I was on the apps because I just didn't really know who I fancied. So I was just seeing like these disembodied hopeful faces and just

like flicking through them and then being like, oh well you sort of seem like someone where if I fancied you it could reflect well on me so swipe that way. Like it was just there was no heat or sensuality or interest or curiosity in it whatsoever and I felt like. And the chats as well. Like, oh my God. I got one, I got one mate. Anyway, I got one female friend who just one. Just the one. Specifying more, you were like, I'm going to laser in and help you do get to. Well, I was going to say girl mate, but then I was like, then I was a female friend. I don't know if it was worse. Lady friend. Lady friend. I got loads of girl mates. Anyway, one of them was on the dating apps and she liked this guy. And then a couple days later,

I was like, how's it going? And she was like, oh, he hasn't got any chat. And I just went, Well, what's your chat like? And she went, what do you mean by that? She was like, offended. And I was like, I'm just asking you. What was your chat? She goes, what are you insinuating? I'm like, I'm asking you if you asked any questions.

If you've just seen someone say, hey, and been like, his chat's dead. Your chat's also dead. This is the exact nub of the issue I want to talk about. Immediately, he said, hey, and she's like, boring. Fuck him. Like, why is there so much resentment there from us? Like, why? You have to ask weird questions.

Exactly. But why is that instantly? Like, you're like, fuck you, you're boring. this is shit immediately. I have a theory. Come on. I have a theory and it's this. So on the point of extended adolescence,

right, on social media in terms of it makes you super aware of how you're being perceived by your peers and that becomes really important to you. Another thing about adolescence is how is it they relate to their parents. It's, I hate you, but please love me, right? That's what teenagers are like. And that's part of individuation and growth. That's how people go from being children to adults is that they emotionally separate a bit from their parents.

but during that time when they're doing that and they're like, I hate you, you don't understand me and everything you do is crap and blah, blah, blah, blah. They're also so exquisitely sensitive to any kind of rejection from their parents. Massively. Right? And that's what it's like to be a teenager and then what happens is you grow up and you grow past it.

And I think that when I hear stories like this where it's like, oh, his chat was dead, but it's like, well, what was your like? What's yours like? Or it's like, oh, well, you know, they're not interested enough in me, so I'm just going to like opt out entirely. That combination of being super judgmental and critical,

but also so sensitive to rejection yourself, that's being a teenager. Do you think, to generalise? We love doing that here. This is what it's all about. Big generalizations. Generally speaking, women struggle with rejection more than men. That is a big generalisation.

I think that it depends on the type of rejection. I think it's difficult because there's also different consequences to the rejection. like there's not many women when they're rejected who that I've heard of like there's more likely a man will respond with violence sometimes when rejected however I think something that isn't discussed very much around women is how badly we can deal with sexual rejection particularly if it happens in the moment or like if a man can't get it up or like you know I don't know I'm talking heterosexual here

because that's the experience like that's the experience I've had and that's what most of my friends are talking about. But I think it also happens with, like, gay men as well. But I don't think, I think when it comes to men and women particularly, there's such a key, there's such a loadedness put on rejection within that dynamic. That carries so much more weight.

Because from young, it doesn't, like, I've got friends who are gay, who have been rejected by men in, like, both botanic fashions or, like, in the past. And they don't even give a fuck about that man. Like, this woman's, like, I'm not going to fuck about this man, but she's still like that fucking hurt. I hate him. He's a dick, you know? Like, because there is so much put on validation from just like the

concept of men if you identify as a woman. So it really stings. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It's interesting dynamic because, yeah, it's, it's, you're socialized to think that it's always a constant option. So when, because in the reverse, you're right to identify the fact that obviously there are quite some, there are cases of severe reactions to rejection, but generally speaking, I ask this because, again, I've noticed with my girlmates that, like, and ex-partners, that, like, rejection for me anyway was just a part of my teenage life. Like, I have been rejected a stupid amount of times to the point where it's just part and parcel. You try it, doesn't work, cool, keep it moving, you know what I mean? But I found that, like, that's not this, yeah, it's basically

We're not given a resilience against rejection by men, so you have to build it up yourself. But I think the consequences when men are rejected can be a lot more severe. But part of this comes back to the question of where are you doing your learning about the opposite gender, which is if you're socialised to think that men want sex all the time, they want it all the time. Like a hollow of a tree could do, right? You don't even have to be. You're going a bit farther. But if you're socialised to think that way and then you're...

I mean, trees are sexy. You see... Natural technology. But like if you're socialised to think that way and obviously that's really dehumanising of men and I don't think that when I was a teenager or a young woman that I had a decent sense of men's interiority.

I have a better sense of it now that I like live with two men so you're just like oh you'll guess you are human you know um like reluctantly you come to that conclusion um sure sure but but nothing nothing really taught me about it i was conditioned to think men want sex all the time and so if a man didn't want sex with me or didn't want sex with me right now or like couldn't then i was like oh great i'm the ugliest bitch she's ever lived thank you um and and i think that that stems from this sort of like the intense dehumanization that we're doing to people that we don't understand yeah i i i I completely agree.

Also, even beyond heterosexuality, this resentment that I'm seeing within dating, it's really affecting, obviously, the way people date, but also the quality of the relationships they do get into. Because it's like if you go around all the time with, like, this armour and this jadedness, you end up often in like very intense, unboundary things, because those are the only things that can get past the boundaries. So I see some of my most guarded friends get into things that are like two weeks in. I love you, like, this is, you know, really intense shit,

or like staying around the house all the time. and then when it falls apart they come away even more wounded than ever and they're like I was right I knew they were going to fuck me over I knew this and it's like the quality of your relationship is not what you want because the energy you're going into it with and the mentality you're going into it is like literally like spear

out but someone gets under like someone who's a better fighter than you gets under the chink in the armour and then you're like surprised when you're bleeding. I should have gone with a different metaphor but we were we were on it and I was like I had the spear but it's also mad because you can literally just you can learn about People are scared to learn.

Yeah, they are. Also, there aren't the resources. I went to, I've said this before, but I went to a relationship workshop and I was taught how to be in a relationship. And then I went to a retreat that gave me further understanding of it. But I think we assume that it's an intrinsic. Like you say, where do you get your information from? We assume it's an intrinsic thing that you learn through experience.

But we end up just forming the same cycles because a lot of it happens unconsciously. There were little things I learned in this workshop which entirely reframed my... Share some. Well, okay. It's going to be like, can I take some notes? Yeah, come on. No, no, there are... Okay, so, fuck, all right, let me think of...

Okay, so there's like... They split the relationship into stages, for example. So there was like... I can't remember all the stages, but it began with, obviously, the honeymoon phase. then it went into power struggle, then growth, then something, and then passionate friendship at the end. And I'd never seen it formulated like that. So they were saying that 60 to 70% of all relationships end after three months

because in the honeymoon stage, we're chemically high, right? Like our brain is emitting, I can't know what the fucking, maybe octutocin, I don't fucking know, something. Isn't it in dopamine first and then oxytocin is the love drug release later? Oh, later, that's the passionate friendship, yeah. It's something that gets you high, but this is a lot of the reason why we overlook red flags and shit because we're just like, oh, it's fine, you know, like got completely different values, whatever else, but, um, do I mean? Like, yeah, just like, let's just fuck, let's fuck.

And then what happens is the supply cuts out, and then you're like, who the fuck is this? Like, you're like, what? But you, I found that, especially in the relationship I'm in now, which I, you know, I'm with someone I adore, in that first period of time because she hadn't been to the relationship workshop she didn't understand what I was trying to do so like I held off on saying like that I loved her and stuff like that because I was like no I have to be

I have to not be high like she was and it was like jar into her but I was like trust me it's better if I just figure this out once I'm not high because then I and for example there's one book I read called Your Brain on Love and the guy actually the doctor suggests that in those initial months, I've done so much reading on the ship, in those initial months, you're actually better off asking your friends what your relationship is like, because you are incapable of seeing it with a healthy perspective.

They will lie to you. Your friends will lie. If my friends came to me and said, Moja, what do you actually think of this? I would not say what I think. You should. No, but think how many times... Unless it was terrible. What normally happens is your friend just ignores you.

but it's so clear cut. If someone's gone into a codependent relationship and they're like, I haven't slept for three days because I can't wait for them to reply and then you're like, is it working? Fucking no, leave. It's not, but they can't because they can't see it until after. Okay, but but but I think that like

I love this, by the way, I love all this stuff so I was able to move through with, no, no, but I was aware. That's what I'm saying, it wasn't unconsciously driven. I was consciously, it was, it was, the reason why I'm smiling is because I'm so, I'm such a deeply toxic person that if my partner was like oh let's go to a relationship workshop

I'd be like what in the fucking Montessori school is this like I want a marriage like my parents had a marriage with alcoholism and resentment and never talking for a whole decade thank you how do we get into this again

why is it that the sex is this so avoidant? No that was the jumping question I want toxic I'm not no I mean that I'm saying that I'm toxic But I think that there is something which, I don't know, people sometimes fail to consider

what are the kind of experiences you need to have before you're capable of having a long-term commitment? And what are the things that you have to learn about yourself? What are the things that you have to learn about other people? Well, what you don't like? I had a whole sequence of car crashes, each one more embarrassing than the last. You're supposed to?

Oh, I mean, it felt like crawling out of the wreckage and being like, well, guess I'm leaving my dignity in there. Never getting that back. And so much of that was driven. by me and there's a way in which I could tell those stories where all of the agency and villainy lies with the men and I could be like oh and you know he was like this and he was such a prick and blah blah blah and all of that would be true but none of it would account for why is it I made those choices and I was only ready for a relationship when I could reckon with the things

about myself that I found so deeply embarrassing and so I think this thing of like hating those who you want to love you ultimately you say you're you're blaming someone else and you're externalising that shame you feel about yourself. Incredibly aware, insightful accountability from someone who is proudly toxic. Like, this is the opposite to what you say. See, toxicity works. No, no, it doesn't. What you're doing is what everybody should be doing.

You're self-aware. That's how you can be ready for a relationship. I just don't like learning exercises. I just really object to like, you know, flip charts with paper. Okay, well, you can do it on a fucking, I don't know, PowerPoint if you want. you know organized learning but it does but for example

like another thing that you learn is about maximising and minimizing they say that in a relationship and this is interesting because it transcends gender which all it comes up in a relationship regardless of gender normally one person's a maximiser one person's a minimiser

when I learn about this you go into conflict I then went into conflict understanding that I was confronted by somebody who just didn't look at it in the same way as me and then often people don't realise that about the other partner and just get pissed off permanently. So some people

like to deal with conflict straight away. It happens and they want to deal with it. Other people have the conflict happen. They want to sit, think about it, and then readdress it later. If you're in the same relationship and neither of you know that you have opposite styles, you just end up firing. But I think it's really hard to have some of these conversations about what are the things that you really need to know about yourself when you're in that position of yearning for love. And like, I felt

that yearning and I felt that sense of everyone else is, you know when that episode of The Simpsons, where Bart sells his soul and he sees everyone else going off on the row boats apart from him and he can't row it solo. It's a Halloween special. That's how I felt. That's how I felt when I was yearning for love and I felt like I wasn't getting it and I felt like it was coming so easily to everyone else is that if anyone had tried to sit me down and really lovingly said like, well, you know, before you are capable of finding that kind of love, maybe you should stop looking for your absentee father and every man you date or like, oh maybe you should stop putting yourself in situations where it's you

being chosen over another woman or like oh have you considered dating someone who has a different name like you didn't listen to that one um you know if they'd said those things to me i would i think i was in such a wounded and defensive place because i was so embarrassed by my own longing for love that i wouldn't listen to it i'm not saying you should drag people into relationships just after a breakup no no but i was saying it wasn't even just after a breakup it was when I was in that period of time where I was like, is this thing ever going to happen for me? Relation at workshops or

not, I think what you said there was really interesting. What would have made you listen? How did you start listening? I started listening because it was such a horrendous car crash of a situation where the guy was honestly mad as a wasp sandwich and

I looked at him and I just thought you are a reflection of what my desires were and I I can't get away from that. So, like, yes, you are a complete fucking fruit loop. And, like, oh, it's like you came from the boughs of hell just to torment mankind. But I chose you. This is, like, you're two lines away from this being like an open mic spoken words.

Like, I don't know about you guys. I'm in, I'm invested. You win the slam. You win it. But I chose you. But I chose you. But I did. I chose this person who was so clearly not right for anybody.

And at the end of it, and you have nothing, you don't even have your self-esteem left after this kind of relationship ends, right? You get nothing. I was just like, better learn now. Yeah. Like, better learn now. That's the way to approach it, though. That's what I'm saying.

That is a really healthy way to approach it. That's how life is there. It's hitting the bottom. It's like, yeah, that was a rock bottom. When you listen to, like, different frameworks, whether it's like an addiction framework or other, it's like a lot of, it's almost like Claude Levi Strauss, the foundational block is the rock bottom. It's just like rock bottom comes out again. They're like, I was at my lowest. I was, Christina Aguilera.

She was at her lowest. Sad, nasty, broke, you know? She came on this bitch mad as hell. Shout to anyone who remembers that tweet. It's formative in my life. But like, when you're at your lowest and suddenly, you're like, I can't live like this anymore. I think the problem is. a lot of people who

are looking for love with resentment and anger and don't realize why they're not being able to find it and I'm not saying you necessarily will but your journey would get a lot easier it's going to take a while to get to the rock bottom and you'll just simmer along so I'm like this is hurrying it up okay

hit your rock bottom tonight I mean do you think that there's any wisdom in sort of like accelerating it because I've got you know people in my life who I can think of who are just sort of like in that place of like you know like resentment and want love but like kind of defensive of, do you think I should just be like, instead of doing what I am doing, which is like, you know, I think your mic's fallen down, sorry. It's like, instead of going, oh, I think you should make some healthy choices and, you know, you should try and meet someone who's compassionate.

Instead, should I be like, go for the most toxic guy you can find just speed run to rock bottom and then afterwards. I think you have to just slap around the face and go, wake up! Speed run to rock bottom? Yeah, because if what we're saying is that you can't, you're not ready to hear the good advice until you've hit rock bottom, does that mean you should expedite? the process of getting there? I know. I don't think, I'm not sure. I'm not sure the idea is you consciously go into that.

I think you have to, the rule is you've got to approach it, believing it's not going to be rock bottom and then welcome that with open arms. I like my version of the workshop. On that note, we have to expedite the process and move on to our next segment, which should be dilemmas with a bit of Q&A if we have time. Bit of Q&A if we have time. So we're going to read out a dilemma. In fact, Ash is going to read out a dilemma.

I am, but before I read out the dilemma, I do have something to show you guys, which is our special one, Bagu. Do you know what's inside the bagu? I bet you don't you. Ignorant motherfuckers, there are books. There is Sean Faye's Love in Exile. Excellent book.

Everyone here will have read it. There is Sophie Gilbert's Girl Not Girl. And there is, oh no, there's actually my book but I'm not going to show. The reason why I'm showing you... Why has my book got in there? Because it's there. It's been proud of place the whole time.

There's only one copy left in the world. All of these books, plus Jordans, are for sale on the merch stand. And so are these bags, these special one baguze, which are capacious and hefty and hefty and durable. And I know that you haven't done your Christmas shopping because neither have I.

So if you are feeling like a last minute Larry and you just need some items to gift wrap for your loved ones, buy these ones. Right. Did that come across as authentic and... I felt, I have never felt more authenticity

in being sold a lovely dope bag. No, I use my bag, I use my bag, you all the time. And hashtag spawn Kahn. Right, this is our regular segment. I am in big trouble. And if you're in big trouble, medium trouble. Grande trouble. Email us at if I speak at navaramedia.com. That's if I speak at navaramedia.com. The dilemma is this.

Hiya, big fan of your show and a long time listener. I'm writing today because I've been mulling over a situation with my husband and his brother and I don't know what to do. Get your minds out of the gutter. It wasn't even there, but now it is. That's the beauty of a get your mind out of the gutter joke, like if it wasn't there, then you'll go to the gutter. Anyway, basically, my husband, a straight Irish man in his 40s, has always professed to be a feminist. Flag. I'm over a...

Which part? A straight Irish man or 40s? Feminist. I'm over a decade younger and from the States. Flag. We met during our masters. My issue is that his point. brother, who is in his 50s and has been married to a woman more than 15 years younger for

almost 10 years, was hitting on my husband's friend who's around my age, to the point she's expressed to us it made her very uncomfortable. I don't know this woman that well, but my husband lived with her for years and said she's like a sister. Yet, my husband refuses to confront his brother because his brother has cut people out of his life before. This has been a sore spot for months with me, basically since I found out, because not only is my husband a reminder of it is all men, but also that I feel he's too cowardly to stand by his alleged convictions. Fuck me.

Catching strays. I love my husband and I want to believe he is who he says he is, but I just don't know. I haven't brought this up for a while but it's still bothering me and I don't know what to do. I don't want to be tied to a man who can't bear to call out his own brother on bad

behavior. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Heart emoji, heart emoji. That's really hard. I actually I actually, sorry, sincerely, I feel very sorry for the special one, because, yeah. Yeah, catching strays, in that for sure. I don't think it is all men, but I mean, I don't know if I, anyway. Look, this is quite, for me, it's quite straightforward.

Like, obviously in a loving relationship, one of the foundational, and it's also something probably came up in my relationship workshops. Was it in the little handbook? In the little exercise book, you have to fill in? And my relationship's buzzing. Can I just say, I actually would go to the relationship workshop. No, it's good. Honestly, I'll give you my notes.

I really like those. I genuinely like those. Don't need a. I think they should be in every school, every, you should be getting these shit. Just to know, understand it. Like, you know, there's other things I learn about that's ridiculous. You're thinking it's silly. Anyway, have you learned, have you used the, how to measure the angle in an obtuse triangle recently?

No. Have you had to use relationship advice? Yes. You've really sold me. I would like the number of this relationship works. Yeah, man. All right. Anyway, one of the core tenets of a relationship is respect, you know. And I think this is like, I would personally, if I was in the position of this woman, it's hard to come back from seeing, you know? I don't know. I hear about this a lot in relationships. Like you want to feel secure and something like that when somebody is unwilling to maintain their integrity. out of fear, I don't know, man, I can understand that giving a feeling of uncertainty, no?

Do you know what should she do? What should she do? I mean, I, I would, I think I would, first, express my, has she told her husband? She's mentioned it before, but she hasn't brought it up for a while, but it's still bothering her and she doesn't know what to do. She's got to keep saying it. She's got to keep saying it and be real about how it makes her feel, you know. But when her cut off, because I think she's got to have a cut off, it's like, how many times can you tell someone before you assess, is this a deal breaker for me?

I think that when you've got this sort of like weird shape where you've got like your partnership and then you've got their connection with someone else who they were very close to and that predates you, that is really delicate and sensitive work. And I don't think that you actually get there in the conversation. I think you sort of get there in the space between, the conversations when someone's had time to like process and absorb what you've said

and so my approach would be this it would be one in the conversation rather than being like you're supposed to be a feminist why aren't you doing x y z because ultimately i think that is it even to do a feminism now it's just like i wonder if she's been saying that because that's so prominent in the letter right is that it's not really about you're supposed to be a feminist blah blah blah it's more about you say that this other woman who's been made to feel like uncomfortable as like a sister to you, that, you know, you love her dearly and, like, her comfort and her safety is really important to you. You're the only one who can say something to your brother. You're the only one who, within your family system, can sort of stick up for this

friendship that you hold so dear. And he probably won't shift very much in the conversation itself. The thing I'd be interested to see is taking that line of attack, where it's much more about preserving relationships rather than saying, well, you're supposed to be up to the standard and why you're doing it. It's not supposed to be that. I think like just communication is so important. Like you just have to say that's how you feel. And then you have to reassess dependent on the response. The issue with not saying anything is you build up resentment. Another thing I learned in a relationship workshop is one of the horsemen of the relationship apocalypse. One of them. Contempts. Yeah, resentment. You know what I mean? You can't be building this up. You have to keep

saying it. Also, is there a world where she can say something? I don't know how long they've been married, but like how long do you have to be married before you can get messy with their own family? And also, sometimes family are pricks. Like, are we really going to just ride for our family like that? I don't know. I wonder if there's, looking at this as well...

Is that bad? Well, I think he's being avoidant. I don't think he's riding for his family like that. I think he's avoiding a difficult situation. And he's putting his head in the sound. Yeah, which is unattractive. That is, that is... I don't think this is about attraction. I think that's that she doesn't believe him anymore. She talks so much in this letter.

She says, I believed him when he said he was a feminist. Then she says, I don't believe him. I don't want to be tied to this man. And it's a reminder of my husband is all men and he's a coward. It's like, is she worried as well? She also mentions the ages in all of this. I wonder if she's worried that her husband

will also mirror the behavior of his brother at some point. Oh, 100%. Yeah. Listen, the whole phrase, what is it? Blood, the blood of the conventant is thicker than the one. water report. What in the fucking Indiana Jones? Because that's the real origin of blood is thick and then water. It doesn't actually mean

what everyone thinks it means. Yeah. It's not that you stick with your family. It's like your values are more important than something you're tied to. She married him based on shared values and she doesn't think those values are actually shared and she thinks she's been tricked. And that might be something else she's carrying from another relationship or whatever, but like

that's something she has to talk to him about. I feel like you guys are going to call the divorce lawyers on like this woman's for her. No, but actually deep it. No, she's just got to talk to him. I agree with what you said as the solution, she has to talk to him and see, like, can they actually reassert they have these shared values? Otherwise, call the divorce lawyers.

Look, all I'm saying is, like, I think you can have an ongoing communication, but all I'm saying is I can understand why that would be a beginning point of, like, whoa, that's a bit mad. Like, if I took that, if I replaced gender with race, I wonder if you'd be so lenient. Oh, not the gender with race combo. Well, if I'm saying, if I was with a partner

and then it was like, you know, then I may or may not have experienced this when I was younger. and their mum was just like saying racist shit and then I was like you're gonna say anything and they're like oh I don't really like getting involved

but the thing is the thing is that like I mean these are these are situations that like I've observed and like seen play out like you know

in spaces which are really close to me as well and that's why I'm saying that when you back someone into a corner and you make it about them adhering to their values people don't move like people don't move

and people don't change As in the person who's being asked to confront their loved one or family member or whatever, they very rarely feel able to move. Often, they feel like kind of trapped and back down. And if they're feeling avoidant because they're scared of conflict, it deepens those tendencies. And like the thing which does achieve like real shifts

and like shifts in behaviour, because like also family patterns feel so fixed. They're the hardest ones for people to change. You have to, I think, like create some space for them to move into. I'm not saying that the husband's going to, do it. I'm not saying the husband's going to do it, but he might. Look at this sentence here. He says, yet my husband refuses to confront his brother because his brother has cut people out before. That's like, that's some abusive-ass shit, bro. What do you mean? Like, that that

relationship, to be fearful to confront somebody on something he feels, that's not a healthy I think not. It's not, but I'm saying that this man's a product of an unhealthy family system. Strategy, comrade. Right. Right. What's final takes on this? What is your final take in like a sentence. I just think you have to just keep communicating. You have to keep saying it until you feel okay about it. If she doesn't feel okay about it, what happens? I guess they're going to have to review things. I'm not saying divorce lawyer. I'm just saying like, you know, fuck, I don't know. That's okay. You're allowed to not know. I think there's also another world where you confront the brother. Yes, I like that too. She can do it. Yeah.

Okay, I agree with you. They have to have a conversation first, but I think she needs to like mentally have a test that she doesn't tell him about which is like two months and then if he hasn't talked to him she talks to the brother mentally set a test that you don't tell your partner about what did your workshop say about this the workshop says so wait what did he say mentally what i said she should talk to the husband in the terms that ash put forward but mentally set him a test of two months like a limit and if he doesn't meet the two like two months limit to talk to the brother she talks to the brother yeah yes relationship workshop says yes right House lights, we're going to take questions,

feedback on the dilemma if you have any solutions yourself. House lights up, please. I need to see some. Yay, I can see people. Fucking other, so many fucking people. Right, where's a hand? Where's my roving mics? Oh, I've dropped one.

I've dropped both my mics on the chair, which is amazing. What about right there? Right there with the wiggling hand. Okay, wiggling hand there. So many people are also moving around. Yeah, guys, stay still. So like musical chairs in it. Hiya.

Hello. I don't think that her talking to the brother takes away from the problem. Because if she talks to the brother, her husband has still not done it. Yeah. And her husband has still not stood up for her and for women and for his friend. So like, yeah, it might make the brother, like, reflect, but the husband's still not done it. I guess you could argue it's leading by example in a way. So true.

And I want to say, I'm going to say now why I actually want to say, which is, I think after too much you should leave. I think call the divorce lawyers because if they've... What did he say? Call the divorce lawyer. Call the divorce lawyer. I don't think it's a bad thing that if you've met based on... Sorry, you've got to know which but based on shared values and you find out that they're not real, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to call the divorce lawyers because...

I think that one situation where someone is reacted poorly, unless there's more going on that we don't know about, I don't think you can call the divorce lawyers over one. I behave like a shitty person in so many more than one situation. Maybe I'm reading between the lines. It should be, no, but I think respect is so important. Like if someone does something. Also, this is an opportunity. I can't remember who I heard say this,

but it should be really easy to get a divorce. It should be like super easy. It should be harder to get... I agree. You know, in Islam it is. It should be harder to get married. It should be really hard to get married. And then really easy to divorce. It's the wrong way around.

Again, may I interest you in Islam? Okay. Have you seen the... divorce adverts on like the DLR stops now you what the divorce yes it's the app the little app there's like divorce adverts there's a divorce app and it's like make your divorce easy as easy as far as easy guys a sauce for divorce no guys we don't need to make it easier to exit a long-term commitment no no divorce you should make it easy we've got a hand in blue shirt blue shirt you had your hand up the whole time you were consistent you had

commitment I actually wasn't but um thank you boy yeah I appreciate it um um um I think the key thing here is for her to actually get that respect back for her husband. She has to empathise with him. Like, she has to actually understand where he's coming from. Like, the key thing here isn't the brother. It's not this girl that's like a sister that isn't. It's really her dynamic with her husband. Like, what on earth could have possibly happened that one situation makes her go,

and now he's a reminder that all men are trash? Like, she needs to get into a conversation with her husband where she's like, okay so you think your brother's going to cut you out right and what does that actually mean yeah communicate with him yeah literally but ask him so many questions to a point where she can actually understand the first point you're men are human too you might be dangerously emotionally intelligent thank you she might have done that though she might she might have done that because she's just saying that he's basically scared he's basically scared he's fearful of his brother and I think that you know maybe they can get through it together I don't know but she's not

mentioned it. She did. She said that he refuses to confront his brother because his brother... She's not mentioned why. No, but she's not mentioned like what, yeah, exactly. Because he cuts people out. Yeah, but this whole thing of like, what does feminism mean to him? When they aligned on these values of feminism, like what did that

actually look like in his understanding of the world? And how is that playing out so that he doesn't think he needs to address this situation? You need to do the relationship workshop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to sign up with you. That's the level of communication as necessary. Right. Any more questions? Down here, the front, black t-shirt.

Are these questions or are these just... Well, they're giving feedback. So people can give questions and they can give feedback, but we're not strict about it. You just want to talk to us. No, no, I'm just interested by the... This, in the black, yep. Maybe...

I wonder if this person's here. Imagine if they were here. Maybe I'm a very toxic person, but I think that she... The fact that he just doesn't care that this sister of his is basically getting, like, made to feel uncomfortable by his brother,

says to me that maybe they aren't really shared values because if you believe in something then you would act on that and the fact that she's bringing up age gaps as well says to me that maybe they really aren't I would call the divorce lawyers basically if I was her

but can I can I say though like the term fidelity right like if you actually we obviously identify it mainly with you can't spell it without Fidel Beyond Castro, what are you saying? That was my point, yeah. We obviously, we think about it physically.

That's the, you know, for somebody to maintain a fidelity, they won't physically betray the person. But I think the actual definition of fidelity is just having like a commitment to another person's values. And that doesn't have to just specifically be physical. So what I'm trying to say is I've been a situation. before, romantic or otherwise, where something's happened, whether there's a conversation or an action, and my gut, like, something just drops. I can't explain it. Like, there's a feeling because they've, it's a form of infidelity, but it's not physical. Do you get what I'm trying to

say? Like, if I told somebody that, like, I, it really means a lot to me, I'll fucking love, give myself an impossible task to think of something quickly. Like, it really means a lot, I really love books. Sure. This is a really shit analogy, but I'm on the spot. If I said I really love books, I was with someone for a long time, and they knew more than anything that I love books, and then somebody in their family just like burning books in front of me,

and they just didn't do anything. For me, that could be equivalent to someone just fucking cheating on me. It's a betrayal. It's a betrayal. Yes, I'm saying, but we don't have the socialized idea that that is. What I'm trying to say is, if this husband had just cheated on that, everyone would be like divorce him, but because it's a value. I don't know if everyone would be like divorce him.

Okay, cool. Okay, right. Pass news to me. Where have I not? I haven't had a hand over here. There's a group of very excited people. It's cheating in now? It's cheating a thing.

Is it in fashion again? Hello. Slightly pivoting. Shag, Mary Kill, the Gurkin, the Shard and the Wokey Talkie. Ooh, love this question. What's the third one? Walkie-talkie. What's Wauke-talkie?

Well, there you go. killing it. You must be killing it. It's what? Okay, right, I've got an answer. Sky Garden. What the fuck is that? Well, there you go. I have an answer to this right away.

I would marry the walkie-talkie because it would bend the sun's rays to explode the cars of bankers working in the cities. Like, like, it did. So, like, all these Porsches and stuff just kept, like, catching fire. Where is this place?

But you're talking about the importance of shared values in a marriage. And here is a matter. Here is not a matter. A building. You have to go through a special wardrobe at the back of an old house. Dude, what the fuck are you guys talking about? It's a building.

The walkie-talkie. Why are you doing this? That's like Dragon Ball Z. We'll show you... Come out. Wait, what would you... So you're marrying the walkie-talkie. I think I would have to shag the gherkin because of its ergonomic proportion.

So true! It looks like the best time. It does look like the best time. I've seen the shard on only fans a few times. I would kill the shards. What would you do? What would you do? I don't know what the fuck the sky thing. What's it?

The walkie to-talkie. It's in Bishop's Gate. You'd know if you saw it. Sure. Shade like this. I'm going to scrap that one because I don't know what the fuck it is. Shard. Fuck it.

I'll marry the Shard. Why not? You know, highest point, you know, get, that's giving Lord of the Rings. I don't know. So is. Girkin, yeah, good proportions. Next question?

I didn't answer. Sorry. No, it's fine. We all know a shagging the gherkin. Do it. Okay. Are you marrying a gherkin? No, I would shag the gherk.

I'd marry the shard because I can see it from my flat. Nice. And I get great pleasure in the evening watching it. And I've grown... I used to hate the shard, and I've grown to love it. And I think that's a good metaphor for my relationship with men. Brilliant. And I would kill the walkie-talkie because I don't go to Sky Garden.

Right. What the fuck is Sky Garden? Next question. Someone there with their hand up. Yes, is that next to O'Shee? I wish I had my friend. Hello, O'Sheaine McKenna's in the house tonight. Hey, love your book, evenings and weekends.

Is it on sale tonight? I think not. But it could be. It's a really good book. If you could fancast Angela from Ask for Angela in a movie, who would it be and why? What's that? You know when you go to a bar and you're on a bad date and they're having the toilets the little sign where they're like,

do you need help getting out of your date? Go to the bar and ask for Angela. Who would we fan cast as Angela in a movie? Um, um, Miriam Margulies. That's a good one. 100%, she'd get you out there quick. I think I'd fan cast. Who is the person who plays the mum in Gavin and Stacey?

Ah. I would fan cast her as asked for Angela. Alison Stead, in my ear, Alison Stedman. All the mum in big boys as well, she's good, she's funny. Who plays that? I don't know the name of the actress. Oh, right. You got something in your...

Right, name the actress, please. The mum and big boys. Jack's mum. I'm glad in nothing. Ash, who's your fan cast? Dawn French. Dawn French. Dawn French is a shout.

Good ones. Dawn French. She's yours. Oh my God, shut it down. That's amazing. That's amazing. Three billboards above Angela. That's a really good one.

Oh, she's a good actor. That's a good shout. Right. Who's next? Who don't want to pick? Arm is waving. I'll give you a tip. Guys, if you wave at me, I get distracted.

So the person there who's waving very gracefully, yeah, right there. Oh, yeah, it's such a, oh. That wave is a phial. I would say there's something diaphanous about it. It's very Diana wave. That's a sexy wave. I don't know waves could be sexy. Oh, okay.

Thank you for that. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. I was just wondering if, I don't know if you've ever thought about this before, but what would your death row meal be? Death row.

Fuck me. Death row meal. You will not catch me on death row. You think I'd commit a crime like that and get caught. I would have been planning it for years. This is true. This is true. No.

I refuse to entertain the premise. Ketamine. What? A meal? 200 IQ. Do you know what I'm saying? They're feeling they're going to get me with pain. See you later, mate.

I'll be riding a fucking space cowboy while you kill me. I don't even want to see. Mine's boring now. All right, next question. Hands waving, you're taking my advice. Brown shirt? Brown shirt. Again, an elegant wave. Thank you. This is a bit of a specific one, but Ash, I think you might like it.

I really want to move to Tottenham soon. Where in Tottenham should I move? Where in Tottenham should you move? Yeah. Can I just confirm what's going on? you live in Tottenham and he's just asking you for Ash is like the queen of Tottenham Yeah but the thing is that I'm also not blowing up any of my spots

Um God no the thing is not I'm in such a dilemma right Because I thought I could describe the really good bits of Tottenham to live in And then I would just be telling you where I live Or I would describe my favourite places to go And then I would also be telling you where I live You vistles them once you've done that Okay all right I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna give

give some up. What's happening? There is the Antwerp Arms. Antwerp Arms is an excellent pub. It's a community-run pub. And also, for some reason, Javi Simmons was just there a couple of days ago. He plays for Tottenham.

Who plays for Tottenham? And the pub is in Tottenham. Yeah, but you said for some reason. No, I just mean, like, why that pub, as opposed to other pub? Like, why that pub and not, like, the corner, like, flag or, like, you know, the Beehive or whatever. I love the beehive.

Love the B-Hoy. Why the Annie? But the Annie, the Annie I'd say is pretty good. Anything else, I'm sorry, I refuse to blow up any of my spots like that. I don't want to see any of you at my favorite spot. I love seeing you in Peckham. I don't. I don't. What do we think of Tottenham? Shit. Shit. I love. I love seeing as shit. Okay. Ash is going to be at the social. Are you going to be at the social? You might be able to ask about Tottenham there. Right. How many more questions can I ask? Two more questions. Who's going to wave the most enthusiastically at me?

Front row. You've waved really well. Blue sweater, very good sweater. You've got this done in your front row. Yeah, right. Can't believe it, the way you think of Tottenham, Chalm. I'm so mad right now. Tottenham suck, row.

They're fucking shit. Going back to the... Going back to the scenario that you mentioned, at what point do you tap out of something that's no longer serving you? As in the dilemma? Yeah, because I feel like it sounds like a really isolating position to be in, where it's like this person that you've... committed a long part of your life to who you don't feel like is necessarily going to

particularly stand up for you in that situation either so at what point do you tap out and say this isn't serving me I'm scared of answering too honestly because I don't want to give my partner a permission slip to act like a div but but I think like over time my answer to this question has changed really quite drastically so I entered marriage a fearful little squirrel and I was just like oh my god what if he turns out to be just like my dad and I had this like big freak out and my mom had to come and calm me down and he was like you know she was like oh that's definitely not your dad on account of like being here um oh um and I think when I was entering into the commitment questions like at what point do you tap out at what point

do you leave loomed really high in my mind because I felt so sort of afraid and freaked out by the commitment that I was making. And now I just feel completely differently about it. So for me, it's not about the question at what point do you tap out. It's what are the tools I have to address this with my partner? Like, do we currently have them? Are we capable of cultivating them? And I sort of, I was saying this to him the other day and he called me Perry Anderson because I kept using the phrase long duet. I was like, I see the relationship in the long duet. But I do. But I do. like I don't I don't want misery to be our norm in any way but like you know if in total we had like you know five or ten really miserable years and what is a you know 30 or 40 year marriage like would I take that like yes he said no which was like healthy and good so like at the question of like at what point do you tap out I think it's really it's really hard to answer in the abstract like I think that the point for for other people was when they knew when they really see

sat down with themselves, then you deep in their hearts, I cannot be happy with this person. And that's the thing is that like every breakup that I've ever had, I've had that feeling in my heart. And sometimes it's been so scary to sit with it and be with it. I haven't wanted to spend time with myself. I'd be afraid of like going on the tube because I would just be left with that thought. So I think that if you have that feeling and it's unmistakable when you have it, I can't be happy with this person, that's when you tap out. But I think that the key to like making a long-term commitment happen or work

or to like aspire to a lifelong commitment is that you're constantly going like, do I have the tools to fix this? If not, how can I get them? Yeah, I agree with that. I also think that it's important to remember that love especially is a choice as much as it is a feeling

which is why I think values are so important because ultimately you have to every day choose to love this person and then if it's difficult, you choose again, and then you have to just build up enough. Again, it sounds a bit robotic, but data, and then make an assessment. And also, it's funny that we talk a lot about serving us.

Like, it's really important to know what we want from love because then we have a barometer of whether or not we are fulfilling our own kind of self-worth. But often I've found, and I'm sure I've heard a relationship psychologist say this, that little things that are bugging us, sometimes because we're focused so much in how it's affecting us we're not realizing that we can show up like that for the other person

and create the exact thing that we need you know like if I keep saying why is my partner not hugging me when I come in to the door I have to then quickly ask myself am I hugging my partner when they walk into the door and a lot of the time I'm probably not and then if you lead by example you might get it back if you don't get it back then again the answer

becomes so that's become clearer and clearer But we always have our own power of choice, so we should try and use that first, I think. I think you tap out when you become apathetic, when you think you've tried everything, and you suddenly think, I'm just going to resign myself to the situation because this is just it and this is just my life.

That's not the one. That's when you stop caring, in my opinion. Right, one last question. You had your hand up the whole time. I'm going to go front for the last question. Person in the football shirt. Palestine football shirt. Excellent.

How is I like book, workshop? Okay, um, which peep show character are you? Well, what? Which peep show? Peep show. Which peep show character are you? Mark. Which peep show character?

I've never watched peep show. What? What? I've never watched peep show. I've never, I've only seen a, I've only seen the first day. Okay, I need to assign them to you then. What do we think Ash? Which peep show character?

Superhaas! I know he's a crack-ed! I've seen enough... He's the most charismatic. No, I've seen enough of it to know that that guy's a fuck-ed. But he's the most... Superhands is the best character. But he's the best character.

He's complicated. Someone said Dobby, which is also... Dobby is a great character. What do we think, Jordan? Tell me, I'm going... I'm going to Google it immediately. I am getting SuperHan... I am getting Superhand. from you. Super hands for me? Yeah. Which is two super hands. I think you are which is

dubla super hands that's a double super hands situation. I think you're slightly Dobby when she's like the best woman character. Dobby like bad Dobby or like no no she's she's okay so Dobby is like the most interest. Who plays Dobby? Uh, is he Satty. Okay. How did I know that one? That's great. That's great. That was great. Okay. That was a good question. I'm going to take one more just as a treat because yeah I'm sorry. There's a another Palestine football shirt? Another Palestine football shirt. Great. Was that Shakira? No, right, right. So I said that was a niche reference. It was no, that was allulating. Okay. This might be a bit of a vibe shift, but well,

we were talking at the beginning of the discussion about how mistrust is fostered along gendered lines and it made me think about Asher's book and you talked so beautifully and persuasively about how the powers that be have created divisions along all the lines and distracted us from the big we and which is essentially anyone that is not the ruling class and I am thinking like in my day-to-day life like in organizing but just like honestly in the streets like people interact with on a day-to-day level how do we have patience with one another and like build solidarity in the day-to-day and just like be able to yeah like hold complexity and yeah you do it by doing it like that like that's the that's the only feels hard because it's an underworked muscle

so there is no theory you can read there is no quotation that's going to make it slot into place and then it's going to be easy every time you're going to have to overcome your own reticence and your own anxiety and your own desire to run and hide because you did a faux par or like oh did you kind of fuck this up like you have to do that all the time and you have to work through it and so I think that sometimes we get stuck in these how questions, right? It's this how question of like, oh, how do I do this? Well, you do it by doing it. And I think that this is where maybe a different question is going,

how can I support and sustain my willpower to do this thing in the face of anxiety and reticence and social norms and all the rest of it. And like one of the best things for my politics, like in recent years, has been there's this like dinner group of like communists and we just like and we all just like have dinners equal portions no no it's two each according to their need

and from each according to their ability and my needs are for a large portion I got my is confused I'm sorry that's social that's socialism but like it's been a really good way of like bolstering the willpower to do different things so the job of this dinner

group is to basically help us be better communists out in the world. And so we're just constantly reinforcing that for one another. So it's not you asking us, how do I do this thing? It's going, how can I create a social context in miniature where we're all helping each other do this thing, of building trust by coming into contact with people who are not quite like us.

Yes. Also, you made an amazing point on an interview where you spoke about the fact that there are always going to be commonalities that exists between people who ideologically oppose each other and I think if we decided to shift our perspectives to find those common points and go from there then we'd be able to break bread I think there's so much friction from just the assumption that two people will never get along but actually there's a lot of that connects us

so I think leading with that is always and I want to believe forever in people's capacity to change and grow I can't let that go because then I think I'll lose a part of my soul So even if somebody makes me want to get angry, I just am aware that everything's fluid. Yep. And practical tip. Put your phone down when you're walking and out on the streets and you'll be 10 times less angry. Just a tip.

Is it time for a social? It's time for us. I can't be you just stole the words out of the mouth. It's just me going like, can I have a pino-grisio? Go on. You can have a pina-gris. You can have many pina-grisos. Because we have come to the end of this part of the evening.

we will now be gathering in the bar, having a little key, a little diva off, a little queen off. So thank you so, so much for coming tonight, listening to us the app, asking some amazing questions, giving us incredible advice. If you would like to start getting into the complexities

of each other, you can socialise now. But we just like to say a huge thank you to Jordan Stevens for being with us. Thank you for the invite. And yeah, we'll see you in the bar. Meet with your fellow people. Mingle. Have an awkward moment.

We've been, If I Speak. Good night. Bye.