If I Speak - 95: Does British culture need saving? w/ Lanre Bakare

Episode Date: January 6, 2026

Culture writer Lanre Bakare joins Ash and Moya in Manchester to talk about the precarious state of arts and nightlife around the UK, Black cultural identity outside of London, and the rise of ‘cultural deserts’ – as well as the unofficial launch of the ‘BAMÉ Army’. Plus: a dilemma about a difficult houseshare. Lanre’s book, We […]

Hello and welcome to a very special live edition of If I Speak, here in contact, Manchester. We weren't shot on site when we entered Manchester for the things we've said about. No, I was saying earlier, I've squashed my beef with the city of Manchester. I've squashed it. I'm over it. We'll see by the end of the evening. We'll see by the end of the evening.

See, this is the exact shit I mean. I can't remember what I was saying now. We're just welcoming, welcoming everyone. We are so pleased to be here. It's really nice to be doing our first show outside of London. Be nice to us. Don't eat us. Don't have a nosebleed yet.

With me, as always, it's my co-pilot, my comb raid. We're Lothene McLean. Thanks, guys. Thank you. And this is our probation worker. We're so pleased to be joined by Lanre Bakari, the author of We Were There. We will be talking a lot about your book. Also, an arts and culture correspondent for The Guardian, so please give Lanre a very warm welcome.

Also, at some point, we'll be asking the audience themselves. So you guys will be talking to you. So be prepared for that when it comes. Yeah. It's like crowd work. You know, so we're going to be like, why are you here? Are you guys together? Why aren't you together?

And that was me prepping you for what's about to happen, because who is here is familiar with 73 questions minus 70? Yes? Yeah. Okay, as you all know, this is when we ask 73 questions minus 70, which means we're going to ask you some icebrokers, Lanre. Right. Three icebrokers.

However, we would like to invite the audience, once we have asked these icebrokers, to ask us some icebrokers of your own. They can be directed at any of us on stage. All of us, none of us, us, a few of us, whatever you want. So, think of your icebreakers now, the questions you desperately want to know. This is your opportunity to ask. But they have to be, like, keep it breezy. Don't be like, why did your dad leave? Because we can tell you. We can tell you, but that's a

conversation for outside. Okay. Right. Question one. Obviously, it's going to be a Shagmary kill. Ooh. Right. Go on then. Shagmary kill. This is turf wartime. Bradford, where you're from? Manchester. Or Birmingham? him. I thought I thought we were coming to talk about my book. I'd have to marry Bradford, obviously. Any Bradfordian's in? Yay!

Oh, man. What are the other options? Manchester Abram. Shag-Marry Kill and marry? Yeah, you married Bradford, so you can Shagg or kill Manchester or Birmingham? Well, obviously I'm going to shag Manchester. Get ready for that. And then Birmingham's dead. Why are you killing Birmingham? Because we're in Manchester. Okay, fine, accepted. Okay, question two. What is your favourite British cultural export? Anything from music to art,

person, a thing? Oasis, John. Wrong audience. That we're done for you, yeah, yeah. It's not funny. I'd have to say, like, bad boy chiller crew, I think. Really? Because of Bradford?

Was of Bradford. Did you know about them before they blew up? Yeah, I did, yeah. What was the first thing you heard about them? There's a track called Pablo, which they filmed a video for it. They're driving around in a corsor on the backfield where my mom and dad live.

And I was like, who are these idiots? And they went on YouTube, and about three months later, they got signed to Sony, and it was like, fine. The first thing I saw with Bad Boy Chiller Crew was when they did that cover of five, what song did they cover? What was it? Can I even remember?

They covered like Keep All Moving or something like that in the back of the car. Anyway, it was very good. I don't know what they're talking about either, by the way. This is before they got famous. They know, these guys not. Yeah, yeah. It's a rap group from Bradford. They're very cool.

Vice loved them back in the day when Vice was alive. Anyway, third question, book-related. Hardest bit of your book to write. Oh, wow. The ninth chapter, it's about Edinburgh, is quite heavy. It's to do with this Somali refugee student who ends up getting murdered. Sorry, doing the vibe down. That was pretty hard to read.

Sorry, hard to write. Just research it and talking with friends and just realizing this guy had it all in front of him. That was pretty brutal. Sorry, that was quite heavy. This is a podcast that can go anywhere. We go heavy, we go light. That's the point.

of it. We actually arrange. And now to the audience. Yeah, and now to the audience. Right. Who's got a question they want to ask? Where's a hand? There is a hand here. Oh, wait, wait, wait for the mic. Please, we're going to give you a mic. We're going to give you a mic. Also, while we wait for the mic, top three Northern Soul tunes. How come are you going to do an extra icebreaker?

Because I wanted to know this because the book starts with Northern Soul. Um, um, The vibrations, waiting for the heartbreak. Oh, yeah. That's a banger. Frank Wilson. Do I love you? Indeed I do.

Absolutely a killer. What can the third one be? I don't know. What's yours? Tony Clark Landslide. Oh, right, yeah, that's lovely. Martha and the Vendella's Jimmy Mack. Yeah.

And, oh, shit. can I get a witness? Can I get a witness? Boom, all right. Funky. Question. How did you squash your beef of Manchester? This is for Ash. How did I squash my beef with Manchester?

We got them in a room together. No, that's not what happened. I just had a nice time. I just had a nice time. But the reason why I've got beef with Manchester is like... Well, yes, because of my sister. Because my sister supported Man United, and when Man United won the treble,

she was fucking unbearable. outfit. And then the other reason is that my absentee father lives in Manchester. So I'm like, what are you a sanctuary city for assholes? Double. Like, come on. Double reasons. Okay. The beef can be renewed at any point, by the way, so it'd be nice. What if they beef us? Anyway, okay, next question. I can take it. Next ice broker question. Who's got a hand? Who wants to put a hand in the air? No one's got a question? There's there. Over there. Where's the mic there? Keep your hand in the air. Wave it like you just don't care. Um, what's your lipstick. It's really nice. Mine? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, Lannery. Um, right, it's a layering

situation. And it is Nix, you know, like, Nix's new smudge, they've got this new smudge lip product. It's the light, it's a light pink version of that. But the main ingredient is, it's a Mac lipstick, chili, mac chili. If you've got like warmer coloring like me, I'm actually deep autumn. You should go for like terracottery reds as opposed to ones with a blue undertone. That's my tip for you. Do we have any other icebergs? More questions, more questions, there we go. My blusher is, no I'm joking. If your personality could be described as a cocktail,

what would it be and why? All of you. Do you want to start? Point at me. What would a cocktail? Jesus Christ, man. I'd say a Long Island iced tea. So every bit of alcohol? Yeah. That's so potent. He's got a problem.

That's what you're trying to say. That's a cry for help. Ash, what's yours? Okay. I know what I'd say for you. The thing is, is that I know my favourite cocktail is not one that in any way

embodies my personality. My favourite cocktail is an old-fashioned. I was going to say old-fashioned because I'm like, you're a classic geyser and you drink. But you drink like a delicious, really nice whiskey bag. She drinks a whiskey drink? No, but I was like old-fashioned.

But I don't think that's my personality. I would say that my... An old-fashioned is what I aspire to, but then probably an espresso martini because it's dark and basic, just like me. I was going to say old-fashioned for you. An old-fashioned, that's so nice. What about you?

Obviously, I'm a spicy margarita. Like, come on, I drink it and I am it. I drink, therefore I am. Right, one more icebreaker. This person had their hand up before. With the red cardigan. It shot up, I saw it, and I was like, you've got to ask question. It did. Hopefully, you can hear me.

I can't hear myself, it's weird. So what are all of your opinions on the phrase being looped into something? I feel quite passionately about and is quite relevant to my life right now. What's your opinion? I use loop me in all the time. I fucking love it. I'm like, loop me in. Why don't you just loop in?

I'm just going to loop in my colleague. I love to be looped. I am basically a circle. What? Who hurt you? My very avoided a housemate. We've got a whole situation. I was going to write in a file.

But now we're here. We came to you. Yeah. And we're coming here. Just a tenancy ended deposit gone because of his lap of cleaning. Oh no. He kept me looped in. Oh.

Where are you on... I mean, I'd... Would I want to be ignorant to all the details, though? Maybe it's important to be looped in and find out, you know, just how bad things aren't. You've got to face up to your fears. Stop being scared. Do you ever circle back? Never circle back, you can never circle back.

I've never circled back in my life. Circling back is like when you're deep into corporate culture, whereas I just like, I'm microdosing it, you know. I mean, start-up culture. so I do a lot of looping. When you really get in there, you're circling. And shall we circle back to the middle? Smooth as ice.

Thank you so much. Smooth as ice. Right, we are now in the meat and the potatoes of our evening. So, as I said earlier, meat and potato. You are the meat and potatoes. Lanre, of course, has written an excellent book. We were there.

It really is good. Really, really recommend that everyone read it. There was so much in there about Black British history that I'd never heard of or things. which I only knew snippets about and then it was fleshed out in a way which is just so captivating and so rich. It's great narrative writing.

So good. And it made me think about something which is a question that basically every news channel and every newspaper and every right wing shithead is asking all the time which is does British culture need saving? And for me the question that came up from this book is

well does British culture need saving and if so, from what? And then I think there are questions about what is British culture and what the threats it faces, blah, blah, blah, blah. The political right has a definitive answer to this question. They say, yes, British culture needs saving

and what it needs saving from is immigration and racial demographic change. And I think that the sort of flags protest, which is an astro-turf campaign, right? It's the organised far right, going around in vans, just like jumping out with cable ties and putting flags up in random places.

is. But it sort of speaks to this sense, whether it's a fantasy or a nightmare, that British culture is under threat and something is being taken away. And I always think to myself when I see these flags, okay, let's say that you get what you want. Let's say that there are Union Jacks and St. George's crosses as far as the eye can see. Let's say that every immigrant is deported tomorrow. Let's say every person of color just magically disappears. What are you left with? What is your culture? How are you going to live? And it seems to me that the right don't have answers to this. And there was a line in your book, Lanre, which just leapt out at me, and it comes fairly early on. And it's that Wigan Casino, which is one of the most

culturally impactful dance clubs in British history, was demolished in the 1980s to make way for a shopping centre car park. The Reno, which is in Manchester, was similarly just ignominiously, knocked down. The original Caval Club in Liverpool was demolished to make way for a Mersey Rail Tunnel, I think. The Hacienda's become flats.

There are all these elements of like British material culture which has just been completely eliminated. And so I think that British culture does need saving. What it needs saving from is the cult of the car and American style consumerism. I think we've done a bad job

compared to European countries of holding on to kind of our like local and like regionally distinctive shit like you go anywhere in the country and it's the same shops that you can find anywhere else that's really fucking boring um but i want to know what you make a bit which bit which bit the the flags the flag stuff and all or anything like you know if if you if someone puts this question to you which is like does british culture need saving if so from what how did you answer it i was thinking about this on the way up on the on the train and i was thinking about the olympic ceremony the opening ceremony in 2012

I'm like Danny Boyle's big vision of Britain and you know it's Mr Bean David Beckham the Queen Daniel Craig and then like loads of stuff about the Industrial Revolution and everyone was absolutely buzzing off it I was reading all the reviews on the way up

and yeah the Guardian loved it didn't they yeah so I did like the telegraph and stuff like Tim Stanley was like absolutely creaming and thought it was amazing I thought it was absolutely brilliant what a frightening visual place you just took us to you started with a show My brain got scrambled. I'm drinking a man going Lassie. Help me. But yeah, I think

that 2012 moment, I remember it vividly. I remember being in Kings Cross and people were going out to East London to the Olympic kind of site and everyone had their kind of Union Jack flags on. I remember thinking it was one of the first times in my life where I've been surrounded by people with either St. George's flags or Union Jacks and not feeling like, are you going to shank me? Because people were just genuinely joyous and, you know, there was the Moabot and all that kind of stuff. And Danny Boyle's doing the South Bank 75th celebration next year. And that's not built as a celebration, really. They're saying in the press release for it, South Bank is saying that this is a moment where we need to come together again and they're kind of clinging on to

Danny Boyle and hoping he can deliver this region of Britain where everybody can get behind it again. I think it just shows how kind of things have changed in the last 14 years. I think the temptation to look back at 2012 and think like, that was a good time. And in a way It was, but also it speaks to a kind of thinness that's baked in the British culture, where we do look at Mr. Bean and go, oh, yeah, that's us. Like, is it? It's that guy. It's that guy, isn't it? Or, you know, David Beckham or whoever, like Daniel Craig,

like trying to shag the Queen or whatever was going on. I can't really remember. It was weird, weird. It was a strange time. It went on for three hours. And kind of what underpins that and kind of speaks to your point about what we've lost, like the material things we've lost, which is clubs like the Reno, which on the face of it, which is just the site is like not, from here at all but who cares it's just a nightclub but that was like a real incubator for black british culture black mancunian culture and it totally changed the city like the music that

beamed out of their change the city and the political work that was done in in there change the city as well and we're missing that we're missing these places where people can go and gather and meet and you know obviously i'm a cultural journalist so i think about it's from the arts perspective maybe play music together and stuff you know nightclubs are massively in decline few people going out and that's that's dangerous especially at the time when you've got the right trying to kind of claim culture and say this is what we are and they've got an incredibly narrow view that is very kind of exclusive and probably includes mr bean i don't know don't know what Farage is up to yeah i think it's i think it is a dangerous time and i think

we need to get back in a position where we are building again where whether it's community centers whether it is nightclubs whether it's something else i've not thought of like we need a place to go and gather and come together. I mean, places like contact are really, really, really important. And a lot of places like this around the country are under threat. Like, that's a reality. So, yeah, it's a mixed picture. Mr. Bean was funny, but like, maybe we need to...

Is there not more? Is there not more? Can I be a provocateur? Go on. Well, isn't some of the onus on the people? So you're talking about these places closing, right? Like the arena, like the hacienda. I think that is kind of the natural life of a club.

It's not around forever. Even the rave movement lasted, if you talk to the ravers, they're like, actually lasted just two years, and then it got a bit messy and scary in the 1990s, one movie three or four. But it's like, I think what we're suffering from now is also a cultural stagnation. And I think the kind of elephant in the room

were like, oh, these clubs are closing down. Well, I ran a club night, and I know how many people go out and buy tickets. And there's actually got a bit of a crisis in people just going out. It's not just, and it's not a case of money. Like, some of them are really cheap. Some of these places, you know, are really affordable.

it's the internet and that's something we don't mention and when we talk about culture and we're like these places you know shutting down etc I feel like we don't talk about this cultural stagnation and the way I see it

sorry I know I'm between interviewing and I'm going on more look It's your podcast thing, do what you want That's actually so true the way I see this cultural stagnation is we look at these certain flashpoints in history like the Reno

like the Hacienda like the rave movement and we say God that was magic how did that happen but it's become this thing where you're sitting online all the time and just kind of venerating rather than creating and because we have got this ability to access more imagery more sort of like primary sources than ever before

people are pulling from them and trying to do like pastiches but they're not actually just going out and doing the thing and that's what's funny to me because I see like so many people running these nights and running these really cool things that if people actually went out and went to them they'd be raving about in the same way they're like this is amazing this is the best thing ever like not to brag but people who come to my club night

like, this is so fun. I can't believe more people don't come or don't know about it. And it's like, I cancelled two gigs last week just because I could stay home, just because I had the ability to stay home. I'm sure there's people who are meant to be here tonight who just stayed home because they can. And we've got like a crisis of staying in. And I don't think it's just the venues.

I think it's the people. Yeah, I agree to a certain extent, but I think the thing that's kind of missing in that is the fact that the Reno chapter in the book, really kind of big thematic thing that underpins it is. urban renewal on this idea of Manchester needing to kind of be redeveloped and the Reno had to be knocked down in order for that development to happen. That was the argument that the council made, even though they built nothing on that site in the meantime. And I think that is a pattern that we've seen increasingly, you know, like I live in East London now, sorry, I was supposed to be northern,

but you know, whatever, it's down there. You still got the accident, it's fine. Yeah, I'm just going to have me up even more. Shastily, Shastily. God, what's happening? Oh, isn't it quick? I've had too much mind. I've had too much mind. I've had too much Angolasi by Bundablus, which is really lovely. So many clubs now are closing, like Corsica Studios, and what are they closing and being replaced with, and it's luxury flats.

You know, that has the end is a classic example up here, but down in London that's happening everywhere. And that's not just nightclubs. It's also, if you think of the Nello James Centre in Manchester, which people might know, that's been redeveloped and turned into flats, and that was a key centre for the black community in Wally Range. You know, it was named after CLR James.

Vanessa Redgrave gave a load of money, like it was this key important site and that's been redeveloped and actually the people are redeveloping if you go on their website they use the history to sell it now you can live in this great bit of history and it's like no actually people need that mate

people actually need that but also policing forms part of this picture and it forms part of the picture of how the Reno came under attack and I can't remember the police officer's name but you know you tell his story so vividly so like he's this really senior police officer he's like super duper Christian and he hates vice.

He's the anti-rave god as well. He just hates vice and he just hates like music and people having fun and what if people meet on dance wars and have sex later? I mean, he's just like consumed by it. What if I have a dream? But so like what role has policing played in the sort of slow death of nightlife? Well, to stay on that Manchester story and James Anderson in particular, I mean, he hated the Reno, absolutely hated it.

And it hated Northern Soul as well because he was from Wigan. So he hated the fact that it was called soul music because he thought it was the devil's music. A very, very strange man. I'm sure some people in the audience are probably aware of who he is. Does he not know that all God's children got soul? I thought, no. Any Northern Soul heads?

No? Okay, fine, wherever. Oh, my God. This is like a fever dream. What was happening? Yes. So, yeah, James Anderson. He's a key part of it because the police kept on raiding the arena, and he hated it and wanted to close it down.

But what he didn't know was that his officers were taking bungs from the guy who ran it, this guy called Phil My Body One. But the kind of the wider denigration of Mosside and Hume, which was happening on a couple of fronts, like the police hated the area, would always talk about it in the context of vice and crime, which still happens to this day, unfortunately. And then you also had newspaper coverage

of the area which was just shocking i mean you go back and look at like clippings from the 1940s and 50s and they talk about it exclusively in the context of vice and a problem and the problem of race the race problem in most side um and that that was used as a justification for that redevelopment and what what the city of the city of manchester corporation was saying what the press were saying what the police were saying was we need to kind of we need to just start again we need to absolutely level this place not understanding that this was a really important black community one of the most important oldest black communities in in the country But that didn't matter. Just let's get rid of that.

And, you know, what came after was probably more difficult for the people on Mosside and Hume. But I don't think James Anderson was really bothered about that. All the people who kind of draw through that renewal program. So, yeah, it's a fun chapter. On the face of it, it's like, oh, my God, it's about urban renewal. But I think it's fascinating because you see that pattern repeated all over the place. What were the clubs that you first started going to when you were with a snapper? Like what was your sort of like entry point?

Well this is also why I still don't fully like I totally know that urban renewal is one of the things that, you know, eradicates clubs and eradicates these spaces. And also at some point I'd like us to talk about the other types of culture, like the arts and the books, etc. around this. But I also know it's about changing habits on the part of people. And it's like back in the day, you know, you didn't even have, you wouldn't always have clubs like it was. the raves out in the countryside, like we used to do tent parties, and then we go to play nightclub when we were older. And it's like those things don't exist anymore because there isn't the same, like the young people's habits have changed.

And older people's habits, as you get older, you're not going out clubbing in the same way. And you're like... Are you pointing at me? No. That's point at meeting. I was in Bergen a few weeks ago. I was point of meeting.

It's incredible. But I mean, like, it's a different types of habits. So I just, I feel like when I was, a couple of years ago, I was very like, it's always about, you know, the luxury developing. shutting down these clubs doing this and then you get on the other side of it and you see that it's also

it is the punters so it's like the places like play don't exist anymore that's a small town that's small town Herefordshire it's been replaced they're trying to do a new club but there's not enough money coming in so I know it's going to shut in a year and it's like that's not because of luxury developers like the reason the jailhouse isn't it because of luxury developers but like I remember

like this is going to sound like back in my day when I went to the club on the penny farming But, like, back in my... So I grew up in London, and so it also... Did you? I did. Unlike YouTube, fucking oakes. And it meant that, like, you could go out that bit sooner, right? You could go out that bit sooner, and you could, like, you know, take pills that bit earlier and stuff like that,

because that's the context that you grew up in. Not me, Gov, other friends of mine. Got it, yeah. I read about it in a book somewhere. but like we would go to these nights where like you didn't really have to like book tickets and you just like sort of showed up and you don't really know how you knew like it's not like you'd go looking on like resident advisor or something just like someone fucking told you and there'd be warehouses like in the middle of Dawson or still in the middle of shoreditch and like those parties would only really get going at like three and I remember there was this sort of you know choreography of a Saturday night which was we'd start at a place called imaging. which I think was a pole dancing club and then like a couple of Saturdays a month they just didn't have any strippers there

and so like played a lot of like dance hall and also like dub step and that's where like you know do you remember like the first wave of MCAT? I was slightly too young to be taking that cat's perspective I mean like oh that was really like the smell of a nightclub pre-em cat

and post MCAT was like and it was you know we'd be going there from like 15, 16, 17 onwards. And then after that, you'd go to these warehouses. And then, you know, in the next day, when you'd go back to your parents, you'd be like, no, I just have a really severe allergy. And that's why my cheeks are puffed up like this. But they still exist.

Fontaine Road. So what's what I'm saying, these places still exist. But like, so many of them don't or don't exist in the same way or are like so much more expensive. Like, it is different. And I think, like, the way in which policing and luxury developments have combined, Like, it's so hard. Like, it used to be, like, relatively easy or easier to throw a squat party in London.

It sounds really hard. Is it easy to throw a squat party in Manchester now? I want to know that. Does anyone do squat parties? No. Has it changed? Tell us how it's changed. Right, there you go.

I want to do Manchester chat because we're in Manchester. There's some amazing clubs here, though. I went to White Hotel. There's going to be a boot. Someone's going to cheer, and I want to see who's who. Yeah, yeah. what's the policing do you want to come up and sit here you're being very useful come sit here i mean i want to i want to talk about something that you say like really early on in the book which is

britain is sort of unique amongst european countries in terms of how much it's been impacted by black culture and yet so much of the story of black britain has gone either like forgotten or like somewhat buried and in part that's because of the extreme London centricity of our culture industry. So I guess I wanted to pose this question in a few different ways is that when we're talking about British culture and how we think about it, like how much of it is strictly British and how much of it does come from, you know, it's black communities, it's Asian communities, like all these things that we think of as being like British pop culture. And then the second thing is how much has been sort of lost or underappreciated

because the entirety of our culture industry or so much of it is concentrated within the M25? Well, I'd say that last point. I think Manchester is a really interesting case because I don't think it is just a London centristy issue. Like if you take Manchester as a city, I think, bless you. Compared to Bradford where I'm from,

Manchester is an amazing job telling its own story and putting its own history at the forefront of itself and using it to sell itself out into the world. Like Sir Richard Lees and Howard Bernstein, we're very good at doing that. You know, talk about splitting the atom, the TUC, you know, the suffragettes. All that stuff is kind of out there and in front. But it's very cherry-picked, and it creates an image of Manchester,

which is, you know, it's all about being kind of northern, defiant, industrious. I thought you guys are starting cheering, but obviously we're in Manchester. Not America, you're just like, yeah, I know, mate. Tell me some of what I don't know. Rob, you were getting jumped at the end. He just absolutely filled in. Two people from Bradford's joining it. Now you get half.

But, like, yeah, Bradford has a terrible, terrible job at selling itself compared to Manchester. And I wish it had a bit more swagger and a bit more kind of Mancunian kind of, like, pride in the way it's presented. But that Mancunia story is still, like, just a tiny sliver of, like, like the city's true story.

So the example I use in the book is talking about the 1945 Pan-African Congress, which happened just over the street, over there. And that was this meeting of anti-colonial leaders who would go on when a lot of these countries became independent in the 60s and the late 50s to lead these countries, lead Nigerian, lead Malawi, all these places.

Kwame and Khruma was there, WB De Bois was there. Heavy hitters. Heavy hitters. Yeah, Amy Ashroom. Garvey, like, these were serious people. And like, for me, that, that fits really neatly into Manchester's story of itself. Like, this is about Manchester being an international city that welcomed these people. Yeah, it's just on the periphery, it's like in the shadows and people keep on track, I push it back in, and it's like, no, mate.

Yeah. Yeah. I just burn to me about that. Yeah. Is that burn him? Yeah. I mean, I think there's that kind of element that goes on kind of everywhere in this country where it's just like, well, that's not really there. We're not going to kind of conclude that in the key stuff. It's a little thing on the periphery. And then the London Central City stuff.

I mean, it's difficult because up until recently, London was the place where the vast majority of black people in this country lived, just a fact. I mean, that's changing now. Now 51% of black people live outside of London. You know, Manchester, 50% of the population of this city is black. You know, like the demographics are shifting, shifting. rapidly. But for a long time, you know, London was a centre. And you know, I know that as a Brad Fordian, like, as a Bradfordian, like Peckham was like, wow, little Lagos. Like, you go down there's

like Nigerians everywhere. Like absolutely bloody everywhere. Uncle's and aunties dressing you up. Like, oh, what's going on? And, you know, that's powerful and it matters. But I just think when you look at the kind of timeline of Black British history that is kind of often sketched out in places like The Guardian. You know, they'll talk about, you know, the race rights in Notting Hill. They'll talk about Notting Hill Carnival in 1976, 1977, 1987, 1981, even though there was, you know, widespread unrest right across the country, it'll be Brixton. That's the place we focus on. Because what people are saying, really, with that selection is, this is what really matters. This is actually, like, authentic blackness happens in the capital, which I think why so many people

when I said I was doing the book, who were from, like, around the country, were like, yes, because we know that there are these communities that have had a massive impact in the country. You know, I'm from Bradford. You know, you never see black Bradfordians represented. But when I was growing up, it was completely normal to be surrounded by black people who were, you know, Jamaican, Dominique and Nigerians. So yeah, it's a complicated one. I think some of it is willful. Some of it's kind of like learned behavior where it's just, the culture is just dismissed and diminished. And some of it is more nefarious. So this man's point, you know, people not know what the fuck around about them.

Guess what you said about British culture was interesting to me? Because you were like, putting in opposition the idea of British culture and then like black culture, Asian cultures. Well, it's like British culture is surely just a briculage of every single little like... I was setting you up for this very point. No, you were.

No, don't say that. Yeah, I guess Landreux, what do you make of that? Because it's like this idea of British culture. It's so nebulous. Is there even a point talking about this idea of like British culture? Should we be talking about, oh, there's culture and then it's siloed into these different little bits?

Well, it is useful, aren't it in some respects? I think like Stuart Hall's idea of what, just before he died, he gave an interview and he talked about this idea of black British culture and wanted to be like Scottish culture and that is part of the union but it's kind of separate and it's got its own

kind of rules and regulations. Yeah, because it is different, right? It is different. If you've got a chapel town in Leeds, you know you're in a different type of place. Like, you know that and that's an important thing. What that culture is, is difficult to define. There's a very live debate in the black community now about whether there is such thing as black British culture

and what that constitutes. think if you're Somali, that's going to be very different if you're a Nigerian or if you're from St. Lucia or somewhere. So yeah, it's a difficult, nebulous thing to kind of pull together, but I think it is an important thing to define, to try and define anyway. Do you think the commodification of culture? Because I think that's something that we're kind of talking about here as well, when we're talking about, you know, the redevelopment, etc. The other side of that is also that, as you say, these things have been so popular and seized upon that now we're getting them served back to us, but by these mega brands, it's the way that KKR, like,

is buying up all the day festivals or like, you know, these clubs are being brought by like private equity places. Where was I going with this? I could sort of like hear the sort of Soviet national anthem beginning to build up like da-da-da-da-da. Like, where do I start with that? My mission to make Moyer a communist, like day by day claiming inch by inch of ground. I started somewhere with that question.

Where did I start? What did I say first? Oh, the siloing off. Do you think the modification of culture is making people now fight over scrapers? in the same way, because it's like, no, this is Somali culture, no, this is Nigerian culture. And it's like, I see this in other places as well. It's like, no, this is Desi, this is this. And Ithol's kind of melding with this idea.

There's a scarcity. It's like, no, you can't share this because it's actually ours. Well, I think that's to do with demographics. Talks us. You are getting, like, there are many, many more Nigerians now, probably in the city than they were, you know, in the 80s. In fact, I met two today at the hotel that I'm staying. And they were like, what's your name? I said, Lanri Bakari.

And they were like, right. And I had to go check it. they're like, oh no, your name really is Lanri Baccarat. Like, they couldn't believe like a mixed race guy. I have a full Nigerian there. It's absolutely amazing. So, yeah, less Nigerians, get out. But yeah, so there's, that was a weird diversion, but, you know, whatever.

Not enough landrys in this audience. But, yeah, I think there were more Somalis now. There were more Nigerians. And, you know, I was up at the Jewish Museum earlier today. And, like, looking at that, which is amazing. It's an amazing, amazing place. I was thinking, you know, about the Black Cultural Archive in Brixton, which is kind of struggling at the minute.

And maybe one of the reasons that they're struggling is because the culture isn't defined along those ethnic lines. Like if it was a Somali centre, maybe it would do better because people have a different connection to it. Maybe black British cultures as a concept is a bit too nebulous for people to invest in

and create something like the Jewish Museum. I don't know. Do you think we should be narrowing down that because I feel like that in this day and age is creating more divisions? You know, I said the very, very sployancy thing the other day I was like, bringing political blackness back. But I think I got booed out of the room.

So, however, however, I feel like it's being used to silo down. Like silos into different, like, little groups instead of being like, well, we could make a coalition even if you're holding, like it's idpop. Yeah, I mean, I think that you're right, that it's a reflection of changing demographics. And so as different ethnic groups get bigger, it means that you can say, no, this is for our specific ethnic community as opposed to a racial category that was created. for us and that we had to make our way in. I think that's part of it.

Another part of it is the rise of liberal identity politics and the way in which institutions reflect identity back to people. And there is something which I feel so guilty all of the time because I feel like the world's worst DESE. Like I feel like the world's worst DESE don't understand cricket at all. It's probably an advantage right now because we are crap. but who's we

exactly you don't want to know you don't want to know who's we like no fucking idea about cricket like in terms of languages that I speak English and then I've got a box in my head marked holiday languages

and you sort of whenever the temperature hits 30 degrees you rummage around inside and you pull something out like merci like you know that's it so I don't have that connection by language

my white British partner went to a mosque more recently than me and that was to get his COVID vaccine and when it comes to you know what's the music that I listen to what are the things that I consume yeah there are some DESE elements of it but there's a lot more Irish literature and know more about Irish history and a bit more about Black British history than I do

of British Asian history when it comes to music I don't really listen to Desi music and for a while I felt like kind of shit like I was like like a political failure and then I was like but that's

isn't it fine like isn't it fine to not feel the edges of ethnic distinction that sharply because you live in this country you live in this country and you are brought into contact

with, you know, so many different kinds of people. Like, growing up, my neighbours were Jamaican on one side, super-duper racist the other side, Turkish, Cypriot there, and then straight opposite, you know, an Italian family, right? Like, that was who I grew up with. And sometimes I think that some of these discourses, they yearn for the cleanness of the division.

They yearn for it not to be nebulous, but I'm like, there's something so lovely about the blurry edges. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, one big concept that kind of hovers over the book, but I don't really get stuck into is like this idea of political blackness, which is massive in the 70s and the 80s, comes from the union movement, this idea that anyone who isn't white, basically,

can kind of stand on this banner of being politically black. And that gets absolutely hammered now. Well, as I said, I'm going to bring it back. But, like, there is something really powerful in it, and like the idea of solidarity, and like, just we're in it together. Absolutely, no questions asked. Well, some questions were probably asked.

But, you know, like, we're going to go as a block and push back against this thing. And I think we have lost that, I think, as a kind of wider, I was going to say B-A-Me, but I hate that phrase. I don't know. I like to pronounce that Barme, like Lame. Oh, my God, Barme.

Barme. Oh, my gosh. I love that. Barme. Barme. And Barme, darling. Gourmet Barme. Yeah, so I think we have kind of lost

something. there, but bring it back. Bring it brandy. Little accent over the E. This thing about cross-identification is like so fucking important. And I write about this in my book. But one of the things I talk about

is the 2011 riots. And the 2011 riots, as many people are obviously aware of, they were catalyzed by the police killing of Mark Duggan, who's a black band from Tottenham. And it ignited something that had been there for a long time, which is people being treated unfairly by police, which in Tottenham is an old,

old, old story, like old wounds, which is just constantly being reopened. But then as the riots spread across England, the participants in urban unrest, it wasn't just young black people, and it wasn't just young Asian people, there were significant numbers of young white people as well. And I think that that's important to think about when you're going, all right, well, what was the image of white working class culture at that time? At that time, people were going on about Chavs, and one of the things that was supposedly so disgusting about Chavs, as David Starkey put it, was that the whites were becoming black.

Oh, my God. I mean, he just, like, sat there, like, he was just like, and what's the problem with that? And I was like, oh, you've just, I'm taking that as the title for a chapter. But it was this feeling that, like, white people had been white working class, people had been corrupted by black culture to the extent that they were seeing their political anxieties and ills reflected in the experiences of black people yeah i mean 981 i think people people misunderstand that as well i mean in manchester two-thirds of people arrested during the

unrest in that some were white um you know and that's presented almost exclusively as like a black riot which wasn't the case and similar similar statistics happened in liverpool and that that unrest spread all over the country there was even unrest in khezek like I listened to all the places. But yeah, it is it, man. It kicked off in a late district. They were going for it, man. The fucking Coleridge Museum, getting bored in up.

Look at the hell. Words were turning in his grave. But yeah. Yeah, and that's that kind of, yeah, you're right. That was a feature of 2011, wasn't it? Just that kind of like, oh, no, this Jamaicanization of the inner city, London, or whatever. And that racialized element of it is just, yeah, It's not new, basically.

It's an old trick. Why do you think there is such an insistence on focusing on London? Because there's such a rich culture outside. Because we're sick. It's not just that, isn't it? It's like, it's this... Wow. You both live there.

Yeah, I love it. But it's also like, now my job involves me travelling to all these other cities, right? And it's really fascinating to see the... I guess the way these cities feel about themselves and the culture they have. And some of them really are suffering from... like chip on the shoulder, oh, you think you're better than us. And some of them are really loud and proud, but you don't hear it within the M25, all, just no of it comes in. They hear so much about London. They hear so much about everything else. And then when you get to London,

it's just like we're insulate. It's like, it's like, it's like, nothing gets in. Nothing gets in. And you go outside and you go to these other places and you like experience the infrastructure, the transport music. You experience, like I've said many a time on the podcast and elsewhere, Leeds was one of my best nights out I've had in fucking years. We're going there for New Year's Eve. It's going to bang. But like...

I love that you were like inviting people that was like, it's going to bang. Yeah, come with us. No, Leeds was so good. And it's like, unfortunately, I did Glasgow and I lived there for six months, but I did Glasgow for New Year's Eve, and that was very bad.

Because like, the club nights, the clubs have been decimated there because of the transport. And that's the other thing we don't talk about when it's with culture. It's like the Glasgow City Council, because the buses are privatised there then they have no basic control over them

so all the night bus services got cut and the trains don't run after 12 so they're like fussing at the moment being like so why is no one going out in the city centre anymore because people can't fucking get home so they're like maybe we'll up the quote of Uber's that's not going to help then the Uber drivers are just oversubs

and it costs people like money to get a private hire when you could get 390 in a bus it's very expensive in Glasgow but that's the reason that the culture isn't there and that's another thing we haven't discussed about nightlife or in general how do people access it physically? Yeah, we were working on a project that might happen, might not, which was about this idea of cultural deserts in UK,

places where it's really difficult to kind of access culture. And we realised that we're through doing it, it was like, this isn't really a story about culture, it's a story about transport. Yes. It's a story about bus roofs. Literally. Because it had been absolutely decimated.

I'm so passionate about buses. The reason I got the job that I got now is because I started reading an article in the Manchester Mill about buses and they were the only ones who did an analysis of the B network and how it was actually meant to operate and I was fucking hooked. But also, if you think about like, okay,

so what is British culture and how do you preserve it? Like, the night bus is British culture. So the fact that you don't just get in an Uber and that's the sort of end of your night because you're segmented off from, you know, everybody else. When you're on a night bus, things happen. Like, the night is not over

when you step onto the night bus. There are more occurrences, there are more events, there are more happenstances. It's not just night buses, so an interview we did for Navarra, that would never come out because unfortunately the project got canned, was with someone who did, it wasn't Ash's fault, was someone who was such an interesting guy, and I actually do hope Wondo to release this. This is an exclusive, and he was this mixed-race Welsh guy who was primetime. Raver in the 90s told us all these amazing stories about how they like bailed out his mate after being in the poll tax riots and then to drive down to a rave and he was saying the

best bit about the raves was actually the bit afterwards so you'd all get in your cars and you'd meet at the service station and then you'd meet everyone else who'd been at the rave and he would write letters and he starts them to the state so that other people all around the country they'd met there and that's another thing that we don't talk about when you don't have you know late night culture and we're talking about night life here and I do want to on to galleries, but like, galleries. Galleries. But when you don't have like a late night culture that's allowed to be late night

and give that space and looseness to meet other people and do things and the police like clearing you out, you know, as soon as it hits 12s, the club's like, everyone go home now, we don't have a late license anymore. Then you miss those gaps where you can actually meet people and like interact and make those. Because that's the main thing I used to do when I was younger. I'd just go out and like I'd meet people in those gaps. And that's how I made up a lot of friends.

Do you remember how guest you would be when you're a teenager? to, like, just be on a bus. Yeah. What? Like, do you remember, train, be on train? You would go, you would, like,

get on a bus, and you would, like, be on a bus for, like, 45 minutes, an hour just to sit on a different park bench with your friends. I mean, no?

No, we do the fields. We would, we were on a train. We had a suburban room. If you want to get off that thing, that's possible. Oh, it was just like,

you, because you were out of the house, you were, like, unmonited. Like, you know, I don't, I wish that I could enjoy myself in the way

that I used to, whereas now, if I'm like, oh, 45-minute bus journey, I'm probably not going to do it. We are now in our, like, 30s, so that does make a difference. I've got one friend who's still so gassed to, like, go sit on a different park bench and drink. And I don't think he's a healthy man. Interesting. In some ways, he's the happiest person.

That story was not giving way, what I thought was going to go. I do want to talk about the day, though, because we've talked about the night, right? We've talked about British culture in the prosome of the night, but what about the daytime? Like, are we losing the galleries? are we losing the book clubs, you know, like, or is that a thing that's rejuvenating? Wow, what a massive question.

Let me try and answer that. Yeah, please do. But I'll try and do it within the concerts of my book because it's easy for me and I'm ready. Because I've written it already. Exactly. I think publishing is in an interesting place. I think post-BLM, there was this kind of big boom and push to kind of diversify. My book is part of that.

I sold it in 2022, probably the best time to sell a book about Black British culture. Like we had 15 bids I was getting driven around London People were like, you're going to be the next Like big thing mate You're going to be like Lenny Henry I was like what are you talking about? Where do I sign?

Like get me involved And it was brilliant And it was an interesting time But I remember thinking at time This is just so strange Like these are people who like Are desperate to get all of this thing Because there's this gap

That they think that they need to fill And that has definitely kind of subsided Massively I was at the Black British Book Festival which was started by someone from Birmingham. Selina, who's great. But she was saying, I interviewed her before the event and she was saying that every year they go around to all the different publishers and they say, like, what authors have you got for me this year? And usually there's quite a few. Post-B-LM,

there was loads. And this year, quite a few publishers had not. And it's just like, yeah, we don't have any. Go on. No, no, no, I was going to say. The other aspects of that is what you also write about in the book. So you obviously cover like Birmingham and Stuart Hall and the Centre for Contemporary Cultural Studies. And it's like those academic institutions, All those offshoots of academics institutions, they're being strangled. And it's like, because we do a lot of reporting at the moment on, you know, various universities around the country, in my day job. And also arts institutions, and not to mention Glasgow again, but it was recent.

The ICA out there, like the ICAs, they all started in the 70s as sort of these, I guess, state funded arts institutions. Now the ICA in Glasgow had to, like, close for six months because it ran out funding. People say it's completely disconnected from the people it's meant to serve. You see that around the country. And I don't, like, you don't, you wouldn't get a Stuart Hall now coming out of Birmingham because the places that make a Stuart Hall have been cut to the bone. Yeah, and that's such an important institution, the CCCCS,

because it's not just Stuart Hall, it's the people who are underneath him. So it's Paul Gilroy, Hazel Carby. Like, loads of big hitters, came out of that institution. And that closed, I think, in 2000. Yeah, Haki Maddie, who's an amazing historian, like, he ran across at Chichester, and that got pulled. And he's produced dozens and dozens of radical historians who want to make a difference and make a change. I mean, Catherine Hall, who is, she was all's wife.

She was behind the Legacies of Slavery Project, which is the most important academic research in the last 20 years in this country. It's completely revolutionised the way we think about our own history. And that comes from that radical tradition. So, yeah, it's, I mean, there are some great institutions. I mean, University of Manchester has a really strong department where Gary Young's part of it, you know, like solid. Gary Young, love that guy. He's my guy. He's such a dude.

Yeah, he's the guy. He's the guy. He's absolute legend. Oh, just enters. So yeah, yeah, you are right. Those places are being squeezed. And the cultural institutions are as well. I mean, you've got to remember the Tories, boo,

they cut culture funding in 2007 by 30% from the Arts Council. And, you know, the Arts Council is struggling still to kind of get money out to people to help them produce culture. And I mean, I was in a meeting the other day and someone came up with a stat about our culture spending in general and comparing it to different countries. Apparently, Berlin spends more on its culture per year than we do in the UK. If you take the Arts Council budget and the mayor of London's budget and combine them, Berlin spends more. One city. Yeah.

And that's terrible. I mean, we talk about the NHS and we talk about spending an average amount of money on our healthcare and getting average outcomes. we spend a pathetic amount of money on culture and get incredible outcomes. I mean, places like contact are a kind of a legacy of that and I think that's something I need to change in the UK because I still think, and maybe this goes back

to the Thatcher era, like culture is seen as it's like, we don't really need it, it's this little add-on and like good culture pays for itself. Like, why don't you just be like Andrew Lloyd-Weber? It's like... Andrew Lloyd-Weber? I think you know why we don't want to do that. That is hilarious because it's like

when you think of actually his ratio of hits to flops, most flops, most of them are flops I'm not going after that guy because I think he's quite he's quite powerful it kind of looks like I'm not afraid to speak true

he looks like mega litigious yeah I didn't say anything legal I didn't say anything illegal I didn't say anything illegal governor but I thought it was interesting because we were focusing on like clubs and things that people can come and consume but culture is also like

it's what you make and you analyse and you write about and it's like you know when you read this book that's a piece of culture It's a piece of culture, but it's like this wave of authors, as you say, if you're not getting those people or these thinkers, whether it's in education institutions or in mainstream writing or on the TV, who are making people think and talk about the culture around them, you are losing out on people generation's future who then can make something and produce. And I think, like, you should look at culture in its broadest sense. So I've just started reading a book called Once Upon a Time in England by Helen Walsh, which is about a guy who's like a, club singer, like white working class guy and he's got the South Asian wife and it's like set during the 1970s and then it all gets really harrowing, like so, so harrowing. But it's about that culture of you know, club singers who were like very often white people who were singing songs which were

written by black people in America and they'd be performing to like working men's clubs and stuff like that. And when we think about what happened to heavy industry, we tend to think about that as an economic phenomenon. So we measure it in unemployment and we measure it in health outcomes or we measure it in opportunities. And what we don't talk about is what that did to working class culture, particularly working class culture outside of London. And I was talking to my partner about this who grew up in Penniston, which is near Barnsley. And his family, you know, worked in the steel mills. And how it used to be was, like, he had working men's clubs

and, like, had brass bands and stuff like that. But you also had, like, holidays that, like, basically everyone in your community would go on and they would put a train on to from, like, your town to, like, Skegness. And when we think about culture, we sometimes think about quality, right? We go, well, we want the best stuff. Well, actually, maybe you don't always need the best stuff to have loads of fun and to have a sense of community and a sense of belonging

and a sense of your social ties being deepened. I mean, like, not all of those club singers were going to have been very good. And that's fine. Like, that's fine. Like, when the Arctic Monkeys first became really big and they put out that first album, there were so many, like, Arctic Monkeys like and like groups, which were awful.

I was talking about a Bromed's jacket for absolutely fact. I was thinking of them. The Raitons. Don't know. there's this one so where it's like I'm not going to do the accent right I'm not getting cancelled not him not him

I'm not going to cancel to that like in the voice of my head is my husband being like don't do that don't do that if I hate it and I love you everyone else is going to hate it so much more but it's like it's it's fine like in order for a scene to produce

like you know two or three really excellent bands or artists or writers like you need a lot of media mediocrity that can sustain itself Yeah. Like there was so many bad crime emcees, so many bad ones. But like you need that in order to get your like, you know, your sceptors and like your getzes and your canos. Like you need the really shit ones. Something I worry a bit about is how we always talk about the feeling of loss, even though I think that's there and it's important because it's something the right focuses on as well in order to further their message. And it's like when you listen to the things that they're saying, especially around this idea of culture, they're not really defining a new, type of culture. They're just like, we've lost it. It's been aism. We've lost this. And I think that's true of like, I don't, can't see me all left, but like it's true of people who may not be far

right as well. And that's kind of a unifying thing, this idea of lost right. But like, what are we actually, what have we gained? Yeah, I think you're right. I was thinking about that on the way up, about the 2012 Olympic ceremony and like Mr. Bean again. And it got me thinking to like Simon Reynolds's book, Retramanit, right, comes out in 2011 just before that. And this idea that kind of there's nothing new under the sun and that we've ran out of ideas and that, you know, the kind of Mac Fisher idea that you can't really imagine a future. It's too difficult now. And I don't know. I mean, there's always, there's always interesting, fascinating stuff happening in this country. Brat?

Oh, fuck it. Well, yeah. I mean, obviously brat happened, yeah. That was. I hate women in their 30s talking about themselves as if their children. It pisses me off so much. You don't get it. It wasn't about being at it's like it's about it was about being in the club and wanting to dance with George like I have no idea what any of that anyway anyway but yeah that was like we're producing there is new stuff coming out in Britain and we are producing things like we never we'll never stop producing stuff yes I think the focus sometimes is on um I mean I'm saying this is someone who went to go see radio I did the night who like just played all their greatest hits and it was absolutely amazing um but like the new stuff is out there it's just harder and harder for bands to

break it's harder and harder for groups to break it's harder for like studios now film studios just they don't want original IP they want an idea that they can just repeat and repeat and repeat and partly because few people go into cinemas like the point that you're making about clubbing is exactly the same in cinema like 75% like the the pre-COVID numbers haven't covered like it's only 75% so like people losing money but this is what i mean to circle back this idea of oh very good can you loop me in oh you're so looped in this is what I mean though about this stagnation which is the idea of like we can access everything how many of you like listen to pretty much 80% and same songs when you're Spotify most of the time

be honest yeah exactly you'll just put on you like I don't I don't need to listen to again but I'm here now as I'm going to you know and it's like oh I could watch this new documentary that would fire my brain up but I could also just stick on this show I've seen on Netflix a million times and it's because it's just there it's easy and it's made it's frictionless. So I think that plays a part in like the stagnation of culture that we can access all this stuff so easily. And like when you have that friction

of having to go outside and see a band and it's like, it might be a bit awkward and a bit messy and, oh, you've got to go out in the dark. It's like, back in the day, you just get out of the fucking house because your mom would be like, get out of the house. There were no else to do.

We didn't have all. We just had to go out. But this one means, so we have this feeling of loss and I need to think we need to like think about how can we focus on what we've gained. I did that accent for you. Thank you so much.

You know this band, Geese? Have people heard about this? Oh, my God. Everyone in my pop group chat is like, are you listening to Geese yet? It's actually quite hard to get into at the start, but you've got to. And see, I'm too lazy.

Do you see what I mean? My stagnation. They've sold out shows like the end of next year. And they've got like one record out of some of daft. So I think there is, there is this clamoring like beneath the surface for something. But it's hard because, you know, everyone's banging on about bloody oasis or whatever.

But then also, we have like new stars. So, but it's interesting to see who also blows up in the mainstream. Like, I love Olivia Dean. This is not an Olivia Dean slagging off. But my friend did describe it as drive-time music. And I don't think that's exactly wrong. It's very soft. It's very easy listening.

It's interesting. She's our new biggest star, I would say. Shall we take some questions and comments from the audience before we move on to our regular dilemma segment? Yeah, let's do it. You guys have got more interesting to say than me. Great. Let's take some hands.

Preferably questions. We'll also take people who just sort of like go up at the end. Yeah. You had your hand up in the front row, first of all. Hello. Hi-ya. Hi-ya. Thanks so much for being here.

So good already. I've so enjoyed this conversation, but I was kind of, like, itching for it to go to the point of surveillance. Like, I feel like it was maybe not touched on. We haven't had the time, whatever. But I would love to hear your takes on it because all I kept thinking the whole time was,

but what about the phones? Like, the phones are stopping us from doing half of this stuff we're talking about, right? like if we're talking about you know wanting to go out but we've got all of this quick access dopamine literally in our hands why would we go out like they're they're in our hands all the time how do we combat that and then I guess a follow-on is sort of a social media point because if the phones are what we need to kind of spread our message and I say our message as in like the left or good ideas that we sort of want to propel,

say like Zach Polanski, for example, he's doing a really great job of doing the whole populist king thing, but for the left. We need that to combat the right, but also it's so damaging. So how do we have those two things exist at the same time? Let's start with Lanreau, because I've got so many thoughts on this.

Yeah, Ash could go, Ash could do a whole new show on this. I'm sitting on it. Oh, really? Well, I have basically no thoughts on it because I think phones... That's where she'll ask you to go first. To use a very 70s term, I think phones are Babylon. That's why I think phones are. Absolute Babylon.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think you can't have a phone and also go out. I think it is possible. I've done it a couple of times. Sometimes I use the phone too go out because it's got my resident advisor ticket and I'm like, yeah, boom, and I'm off and I do it. But yeah, maybe put it in...

Some people said, like, you should come into house and put it in a little box. Maybe that's the way to do it, and lock it away. Like, it's a little rabbit or something. No phones in the club. Oh. No phones in the club. None.

Like, no taking photos of yourself at the club, no fit checks at the club, no filming people at the club, no phones at the club, just none. What's a fit check? Is that when you're checking if someone's fit? Oh, a fit check is when you... I'm unfortunately a fit check, a practicer.

You just take a picture of your outfit and you put online. Oh, right, okay, that's fine. Innocent. Just none, none. Get rid. Because, like, you can only have fun if you take the risk of looking stupid. And, like, sometimes you do look stupid, and that's fine, and that's actually kind of liberating and good for other people.

Like, I was talking about this with another podcaster called Blind Boy, who was talking about how men used to have to be able to dance. And, like, in the 2000s, it was the whole thing. thing of like you'd wear the boot cut jeans and then the church shoes and then men would be holding a pint of ballmers like they were breastfeeding it and they would have to and like the music was all kind of bump and grind and so that's which club is that absolutely mental that was I believe that may have been in limerick okay fine fine that makes a lot of sense but like you know the outfit Cristiano Ronaldo wore when he signed for man united like that was the look that was the look and men had to be able to

dance and like everyone looked really stupid, but like, you know, the species continued. And now we're like giant pandas who don't know how to mate anymore. And I think that's because of that surveillance that you talk about and that real feeling of intense embarrassment. Second thing that you said is about populist messaging. So this is something which I think about all the time, which is like, on the one hand, my entire job relies on me being like, you have a parasocial relationship with me. Do you like Marx? Like, that's my whole job. And also at the same time, Like, social media has weakened the left. It's been part of the process of atomization and loneliness, which has made the left weaker

in all sorts of ways. So we live in the world that we live in. And ultimately, if you want to speak to people, you're going to have to embrace Babylon just a little bit, just a little bit. But that's not the only thing you do. The much more important question, I think, is what institution Are you spending your time building? For me, the institution that I want to build is Navarra Media

because I want to build a machine which is capable of taking on vested media interests. And then the second thing is, what do you do that brings you into contact with people in real life who are not like yourself? And that's something I'm really bad at because I'm like consumed with shame and anxiety. And so whenever I'm talking to anyone,

I'm like, I'm the world's biggest twat. Like, that's just the thing that's in my head all the time. But my housemate is unencumbered by that. He never thinks he's a twat, even though he sometimes is. But that's why he's such an effective political operator. Like, you put him anywhere, like any pub, any bus stop, anywhere. He'll just start talking to people. And like, there's no way to get over it other than to just get over it.

You know? Like, and it feels uncomfortable, but I think you become a better person. Oh, you'll meet answer as well. That was pretty comprehensive. What you said about, you know, the phone's your pocket. That was what was trying to get out with the whole stagnation. you're so easy it's so simple it's frictionless um the only way to kind of get over that is just fucking put it down and go out like you can't wait for other people to do that or you can make

a little club we're like we're having a no phone evening out and we're going to go to this place and we can take one person's phone to navigate and that's it and it goes off until we're leaving this place you sometimes i remember when you had to write down the directions for where you wanted to go and we got there actually there's also so many apps like i have a lock me out at which means it basically can shut down my entirety of my phone except my GPS, which is like if you really want it, there's ways and means. On the whole messaging thing, I think

an in-person interaction is kind of worth 10 digital interactions in terms of power and loyalty on what you're building, like what Asher's saying about this institution. Yeah, like your devices can get you in the room, but once you're in the room, you need to get rid of them because like if you want that to stay with a person,

if you want to really make a difference, like you have to have that in-person contact. the place, I keep coming up the place I work for now, but like we have just done a print-ish edition I spent the afternoon like waving it around and giving out on the street which was really fun and the sort of like thrill you get just from talking to other people

and now my job takes me to places where I get to talk to other people and other places all the fucking time and I've noticed the difference it has like I used to be so, I used to be so socially anxious that I couldn't even go into a restaurant and ask for a table because I was so scared of the embarrassment of them saying no.

Like I just would, I'd make my partners do it. I'd be like, please do it, and then, like, throw a little fit if they wouldn't, you know? Like, that's how bad it was. Now I, I'm the daddy now, right? And it's like, the other day I was walking around the park, and I noticed...

There are people in here who probably said, like, but the other day I was walking around the park and I noticed this young guy doing something strange with the fish, not in a sexual way, but doing something strange with the fish. Was it Troy McClure? What were he doing? No. He was lifting some, he had these buckets of fish.

And it was just in like London Park. these buckets of fish and he's lifting the fish out and I was like oh I wonder what he's doing I was like oh I was just fucking asking what he's doing obviously so I asked him and there was all these like blokes who was so a bit jobless like hanging around the park smoking spiffs you could smell it and but there I was like oh what were you guys doing he started explaining and they were like this is the carp this is the roach they get stuck in the like they knew so much about these fish and we just had a great little interaction I was like three years ago I've never talked to any these people I just walked by I wondered my whole life and now it's like I can like today on the street as well

I was giving out these papers. A lot of people said, no. Three years ago, that would have killed me. I'd been like, I had a piece of shit. But because I've practiced and I've talked to people, it's a muscle. And I think we've, having, like, social media, having, like, these dopamine hits and stagnation and numbouts mean that this muscle has atrophied for a lot of people.

And you have to practice. And at first it will be awkward, and at first you'll feel a little bit embarrassed because you have this idea that the world's eyes on you because of the penoptical in your phones, but you'll realize soon enough that's actually not true. And that the awkwardness is where the beauty lies. Go find your fish.

Right. Shall we take a couple more hands? Yeah, let's have a couple more hands when we move on. All right, let's take my friend right in the middle there. White T-shirt, hand up. Yeah, hi. You guys talked a little bit about political blackness. And I think a couple of you guys, like, hated on the term Bain,

which I actually really disagree with. Because right now, the term, is global majority. What's this? I think it's a term. global majority. Big disagree. I hate global majority. I think it's a really stupid term. It basically just means non-white, which if you want to say that, just say non-white. Or just say black and brown. You know, like, you don't have to get all technical with it. And I just want to know what you guys think about that. Ash, you wrote a book about this. I mean, I suppose

people say global majority because it's like the inverse of ethnic minority, right? Like, that's what they're, so it's a bit basic and it's flawed, but all these terms are crap. as we've explored tonight, kind of established, except for Barmei, which I'm loving it. Part of the Barme Army. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, there we go.

That's incredible. You two have done something incredible here tonight. I've got to get that tattoos. There's got to be like, you know the football, like a wayday flags? Like, that's our next merch. Like, CLR James's Barmi Army, like. We need Barme Army for the merch. I'm having a percentage of that.

Tom, put that down now. Yeah, global majority. Yeah, I mean, it is fairly crap, in it. But, like, what, as we've established, they're all rubbish. They are all rubbish. Yeah, that's it. That's not good to say.

Not on. I've peaked. The term doesn't matter. Like, it just doesn't matter at all. And the fact that we spend so much time finicking over it shows the lack of political ambition and strategy. Like, it doesn't matter if you pick Barme, it doesn't matter if you pick BiPoc.

It doesn't matter if you pick global majority. Like it literally doesn't fucking matter at all. Like, just pick one. Like, I tend to use people of colour. The reason why I tend to use people of colour is because it emerged in a particular organising context to try and bring together lots of different groups, like, within a context of a shared political strategy. But, like, I don't give a fuck, like, at all.

And, you know, we can get so po-faced about this stuff, like, so po-faced. Like, I made a joke about the eye in Bipok standing for attack. And, like, some people got really angry with me about, because I was like, that's indigenous erasure. And I was like, it's a joke. Like, it's fine. The hyperfixation on language is itself an expression of political weakness, I think. So, just fucking pick one.

It doesn't matter. Agree. This person in the middle of the end. Fred Perry, Tom. Yeah, Fred Perry. No pressure. Moia being like, it's a good one.

Hi. So I think I used to work in a school, a secondary school, and seeing how children interact with each other is interesting, to say the least. Do you think the death of third spaces and things like social clubs and things like that

have contributed to children and young people not being able to make those cultural connections and yeah. I don't have kids. You've got kids. I have got kids. They're very, very small though. But we use the local kind of children center all the time and it's a crucial kind of meeting place. Living a big Bengali community and we're mixing there which is lovely. It's great. People are everywhere. So yeah, I think they are kind of vital and it speaks to this kind of like, I mean, I always think of the importance of like Shawstart and how like that

is one real big legacy new labour, which is good. Sorry, I know you're not a big new labour. I can admit that sure start was fine. Fine, good. I don't know. I'm a big John Prescott fan. I don't want to get it wrong. And I think that's, yeah, those centres can be this crucial kind of jumping off point because you're exposed to all kinds of different people, different cultures. And yeah, they are important. They are vital. I mean, schools at the minute, the big, thing I'm hearing is like how, sorry, the internet again, but the internet kind of seeping into schools and the language that people are using kind of like hacking back to the bloody 70s or maybe even worse, like racist language being back on the menu and it's just a bit of a

giggle and what you're talking about. I think that's really worrying because I think we've done a pretty decent job over the years in this country, it's stigmatising that kind of behaviour and for it to be kind of rolled back that quickly, it's pretty terrifying. I mean, I've got a lot of friends who are teachers. Don't clap at once. you really are a great humanitarian yeah no i've got a lot of friends who do like actual jobs actually one of my teacher friends is this joke about bonneville and they're like if it isn't a job in bunnyville it's not a fucking job like if it's not a job in a children's but like like i start to say policeman wrong crowd uh if it's not like firefighter or like you know teacher it's not a

real job anyway got a lot of teacher friends and at different levels they're telling me pretty much the same thing which is the internet devices it's desensitizing children it's stunting their ability to think, like the secondary school teachers are saying that the kids now, because they're so focused on this idea of outcome, okay, getting a good grade, they'll be using chat GPT, and they won't be doing any of the processing and thinking that actually makes you able to learn. And the divide that you're going to see in years to come or, like, that's happening now, is that it's going to be a luxury for, like, the middle class and the, I guess it's upper class, elite, we're not what else to say, who cares about language anymore,

upper class parents. Pick a term. They're fucking rich. Class enemy. Yeah. parents who are able to like sit with their kids and also make sure they have a device free time at home so they're doing the thinking they're doing the homework and then you'll get the kids whose parents like work two jobs you don't have time to be doing that and I like here's the tablet just look at that you know like use that I don't have time to go through and that when they're getting to like the working world the outside world will be such a difference in cognitive ability and you're also seeing that in like communities where you know I've got a friend who's teaching and they're giving all the kids homework she's like kids don't need more homework and because the only kids whose, like, abilities get better with homework are the ones whose parents have time to sit down and do it with them. So then you get kids who are coming in who are a younger age, you're not doing the homework. And some of their parents actually, like English isn't their first language. They can't read very well.

So the kids aren't learning to read at home. So she's like, we just need to do school reading clubs with the parents and the kids. That's what we need. Instead, they teach, like, no homework, attainment. So it's like the focus on the, the English-like most creaking infrastructure institutions in, like, England and Britain, I mean, Scotland's slightly different. But they're, yeah, they're basically, like, falling apart in the same way, like the NHS is falling apart. And everyone's so overstuffed and overstretched and over work.

And there's such focus on attainment rather than the process of thinking. And we go back to culture. It's like the focus on attainment rather than, like, these cultural centres. So, yeah, AI, I think, is also going to be playing a big part in watching our children's brains. Right. I'm going to move us along to our regular dilemma segment. I'm in big trouble. Now, if you are in big trouble, medium trouble, teeny, weeny, eerie trouble.

Email us at if I speak at navaramedia.com. That's if I speak at navaramedia.com. Moya, do you want to read out the dilemma? You can pick whichever one you prefer as well. Really? Because there's two. Okay, I'm going to do this one. Is that all right?

Go for it. Do you want me to do that one? No, do that one. Because that one's actually kind of funny. Yeah, I feel a little bit of lightness. Right. Hi, love the show. On to me.

that in herself. No, no, no, it says, hi, love the show, nothing else, onto me. Efficient. I'm a male in my late 20s, living in a UK city with my childhood friend in a rented house share. The other week, I was standing outside the door to our house, staring at my hand with a deep pit in my stomach. I didn't want to turn the key, enter my own home, and talk to him. I realize this isn't how I should be feeling about someone I live with. Truth be told, he annoys me deeply. Everything has to be his way. He's very organized, a bit of a clean freak,

loves control of his environment, down to the way the bath mat is placed to dry after a shower. That's important. Yeah, I'm not going to lie. At the start, I was like, oh my God, so me, like I've been there. And then at the end, I was like, wait, is this about me? Anyway, in the last year, he's got into a relationship with a woman. Boo.

At first, the company was enjoyable and we got on well, but now I find them both, all caps, insufferable. They're both very similar. They yap 24-7, and she's at our house a moderate amount of time. They use the living room a lot without consideration as to whether I want to use the space, and I don't feel comfortable around them. I'm questioning why we're even friends anymore.

We've become different people. He's very extroverted and I'm mildly introverted. I admit, I can be grumpy and a bit messy. I'm certainly not perfect to live with. You shock me. I have my quirks, but I can compromise with others. And generally, I believe I am easy to live with. I've learned to let him have his way

or else it turns into a debate that falls under agonizing scrutiny. Perhaps I'm just single, and perhaps I'm just salty as I'm single. Perhaps I'm just salty as I'm single, and have been the past year. But I enjoy spending time by myself a lot, and I'm quite insular.

I love the house I live in, and I don't want to give it up, and I can't afford to live on my own. But I'm starting to realize I don't want to live with my childhood friend anymore. How do I approach the same? subject with him, if at all. Yours, special one.

What would you advise? Is someone here who's written that? No. Well, they might be. And if they were, I'm sorry, I read it in such a dramatic fashion. Sorry. Oh, man. I mean... They don't, they live with a childhood friend. Childed friend's got a girlfriend.

They dread going home to their childhood friend. Oh, just leave then. I mean, how was this complicated? They don't want to leave. Right, just leave. You obviously hate living with a person. You want to preserve the friendship. leave. Maybe you'll like them more. Easy. There is a huge difference.

I don't know. Advice columnist completed it, man. Not to be gender, but that was quite like manna advice. No, but the thing is that he's right. Like, you're out of line, but you're right.

He doesn't want to leave. He doesn't want to leave. So, you can't have all the things that you want in this life, right? You can't have, I live in this place, but I'm not going to live by myself, but I, you know, I reserve the right to boot my childhood friend out of his, out of what is his home as well, because I find him and his girlfriend annoying. Yeah. No, he says, I can't afford to live on his own. Live on his own. So he could go and

live with other people. He could, he could, he could go live with other people, but that's the things that you have to give something up, right? You either give up living in the place that you want to live, or you give up your peace of mind because you're living with people who you deeply, deeply resent. And like, here's the thing is that I've been the resented person in a house shit. Oh, wow. So what happened was, is I was living with some friends and then a friend moved a girlfriend in and then the girlfriend fucking hated us. I mean, but I was the only one who ever got in trouble. Like, she hated everyone, but I was the one where, like, if there was a problem, it was like, it was ashes fucking fault. And like, it was so weird.

Like, just the vibes were awful. And, like, everyone was trying their best, including her, I think. Like, I think it was hard for her because she had to see, like, this annoying mug every second of the live-long day. And some of this was COVID as well. So, like, no one can escape. But, like, it was, I think, a mark of our immaturity that we were just like, oh, this is the way it has to be. No one took responsibility for the thing that they felt, which was annoyance and dislike, and acted on it. Like it's fine to not like people.

Like it's not a crime. You haven't broken any law by not liking someone. But you do have a responsibility to act on that feeling rather than to just sit there passively, resenting everyone, drinking poison, hoping they will die. It's interesting because I have been in this situation. Have you been their hater or the hater? It was a mutual thing.

It was mutual. No, I was actually quite recently in this situation. it was very distressing and someone had to move out and that person was me I actually think you have to look at it logically and I think it has to be who needs to stay more

is the question and it's like okay is it in close proximity to their job is it that you can go if you can go somewhere else you should be the one to go and if you can't go somewhere else then you should talk to them about being the one to go

is my opinion No. Why? Because this special one I feel will come up with all sorts of reasons for why it shouldn't be them to leave. And I think that if you, and I, I am a bad mind person. I have horrible thoughts about people all the time. If you are a bad mind person, the way in which you make up for it in the eyes of God is that you take the L sometimes. Right? That's how you do it. That's how the cosmic scales balance. I think, honestly, I think the one. who, oh, it's really difficult. It's not difficult, just bloody leave. You don't like the person. No, because I'm like, I'm kind of like this person needs to realize that it's not the other person. And it's them.

I think it's wherever they go, they'll be. This person doesn't like his friend when his friend is happy. His friend, no, this person doesn't like his friend when his friend is having a visible life in front of him. And I think it's something to do with that. What was said? Oh, that was just a, oh, I thought someone said something. Shall we, should we take some contributions from school?

Come on, I'm struggling, guys, because I'm a bit like, as the person who left, I'm a bit like the happy person should leave. All right, front row with the glasses. So I actually had a really helpful and productive and friendly resolution to kind of this situation. So during COVID, I was living in a tiny, I don't know if anybody knows what a Tynside flat is, but it's a very small. flat, living there with me, mate, and then his partner had to move in because of COVID and her living situation was rough. And I love them both to this day, but we drove each other completely up the wall. And so there was one point where her partner come in and he said, look, we're going to kill each other if we carry on like this. And I don't want this to get worse because I love

you. So one of us has to go, let's talk logistics and work out who's it will be easier. And then let's just commit to each other. We'll make a real effort for the next four or six months. It doesn't have to be longer, but we'll make a real effort. And it ended up being slightly easier for me to move because my work was a bit more movable and that's cool. And we still talk all the time and we just made it really clear to each other.

It's not a judgment of you. It's not a, you're a bad guy, I'm a bad guy. This just ain't working. So be grown-ups about it and it's fine. This is what I fucking mean. And the reason mine went to tits up, right, is because we didn't say it out loud. We didn't say out loud. We just, I was kind of like, I'm going to go.

And then we were just really polite to each other for the next, like, few months until I left. And we've never talked about it. And it's just been awful. But because you were like, this is not working and it's bad, let's one of us move out. And we'll keep the friendship up properly and we'll make an effort. You got it out there. you cleaned out the wound. No, Landreys just, like, move out,

never speaks to this person again. I feel like we're on the same page. You, like, move in the middle of the night, tell no. That's what I did. That's what I did. And it did. Any more hands? Any more hands?

More hands. Put the lights. Get those lights on. Get those lights on. Tart and scoff? Yes, tart and scarf. I feel like maybe part of the dilemma that we haven't answered is the bit right at the end. I think they're more asking about how to have that conversation.

Like, I think they know that they want to leave, but, like, are seeking advice of, like, how to kind of break your friend's heart. Because the way that this person has written it, it sounds like their friend is really oblivious. So, like, maybe worrying about blindsiding them. I think it's more about the how to have the actual conversation. How is your advice? How is your advice?

Catch them at a happy moment. but not when the partner is there. And ruin their happiness. Yeah, yeah. I feel like when they're like chilly and have a cup of tea, like, all that. I just, what are your guys' tips for having a really hard conversation with someone that you love? With the aim of preserving that love. Neutral place.

Say beforehand, hey, I really want to talk about this with you. Shall we go for a coffee and approach it? literally have to approach you would love being like, why don't you tell me first how you're feeling is a good way to open up, I find. My approach is that I never have the conversation. Let resentment poison me from the inside out. You said you shouldn't do that.

And carry on living. Just keep on living, man. That's my real answer. I mean, just leave. That's my answer to basically everything. I'm off. I think you're right, though. I think the letter writer has said,

but I think the letter writer is trying to ask, how should I have the conversation about kicking him out? Because they're like, I love the house. I don't want to give it up. I can't afford to it for my own. I realize I don't want to live with my childhood anymore.

How'd I approach this subject with him? This is an eviction notice. But that's what I'm saying is that you have to be the one to take the L. Like, I think that you have to be the one willing to find another living arrangement. I reckon because I think because this person has stressed

I'm salty as I'm single I think that they've probably got in their heads at the roommate house they were roommates their roommate can like move in with the new partner I think they're thinking oh he's got somewhere to go he's got somewhere to go and I don't have anywhere I don't want to put the bathroom up after a shower anymore

you know that's his vibe I think special one maybe needs to get some and then revisit this situation I do really I do really agree that you have to have similar levels of cleanliness. I think that's so important when you're living with someone. Oh, do you think that's possible? I live with two heterosexual men. It's like living with dogs.

But you're married. Wanting like a similar level of like cleanliness. I mean, when I first started seeing my partner, he had one towel. It was a travel towel that was always damp. And I still kept going around and he smoked in his room. I mean, this guy's from Barnsley, right? like what do you expect like that's part of the thing that's baked in no but you that's a

I had to my fair lady him you know these are not this is not my fair lady him you know these are not I was like this is a microfiber cloth this is fabric softener the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plane but this is this is not a partner I think with a partner people put up with things they shouldn't do but like and you my fair lady them because you're investing right whereas this is childhood friends and it's like I can't my fair lady my childhood friend or a friend do I move it like me and my best friend right best friend love us so much we've made a pact we will never move in together because that friendship would be over the moment that she didn't wash up her dishes you know it wouldn't be the moment but we she'd piss her off as much as she'd piss me off because we have different cleanliness levels and we know that and I think that's part of it you have to like you know a bit of a clean freak to me that sounds like a dream an absolute dream any other hands yeah more hands okay I think I've got a point um I lived with my best friend well one of my best friend well one of my best friend well one of my best friends friends and I think I was the clean freak but I approached all the cleaning with love like we all

think we do you know like we it was never like it never needed to be like a deep chat like a like a Spanish inquisition it was just like she brought so much other amazing things to the flat that wasn't cleanliness and we still loved each other and it still worked but yeah I think there's something else there that's like resentment. And also this friend I lived with had a boyfriend and he'd come round and I was the single one. But yeah, I think like, I don't know. Your point is that it balances out if they're bringing other stuff whereas this housemate doesn't think that the other housemate is bringing anything else. You're just bringing your loud girlfriend. You'll throw your sex life in my face

and you want the bath. But yeah, but also just to remember why they're friends as well because I don't think it's always worth like blowing up a friendship moving out, making it really dramatic maybe he just needs to like have a conversation have a little water on the I am questioning why we're even friends anymore actually that is an extra point that I want to do you think that all conversations because you said you brought it really lightly to your friend and that's something I've been thinking about recently sometimes I think we go a bit to therapy speak when we're talking we're like let's hold space and it makes it very very like deep and weighty in a way that maybe you want to bring a bit of lightness and fun and like this is

a bit annoying but I love you so much I like to get over it you know when I'm genuinely to articulate a difficult emotion or a feeling, I either put on a special accent or sing it. So, like, especially in the last year of, like, you know, dealing with grief and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. If I'm feeling, you know, really awful, you know, that song, which is like, I feel good, good, good, I feel sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, I feel sad, guess what, I feel bad?

And then he's like, sure, that's what I'm talking about. It's a concept of, but I'll be like, yes. That's definitely what I'm saying. I was just saying, like, sometimes it can be difficult to do that, and especially if you're an avoidant hun, such as myself. Like, sometimes you do have to think about these things which are a little bit distancing, but they form part of, like, a shared repertoire

of, like, gestures and language, which, like, in a relationship that's close, and it can be, like, a close friendship, or it could be a romantic relationship that other person understands. And I think, like, you know, those really, like, we're going to hold space for this thing, kind of conversation.

Like, my partner tried to make me do it, once where he was like, we have to like write continuously for a minute and then read out what we wrote. Mine was just, I fucking hate this. This feels like an anti-bullying workshop at a Montessori school. And he was like, okay, well, I wrote down my hopes and dreams for the next 12 months. Like, it was, it was such a mismatch because he was like, this is good communication. I was like, for me, it's not. For me, the thing that works is like, oh, it's a me. I'm so depressed. How do you have difficult conversations, only? I'm just realizing that. I just clearly just avoid them.

Like, I would never ever, like, I'm probably more likely to do a little silly, like, so then, like, write down my feelings. I would not do that. I think to people from Bradford, it's genetically impossible for us to do that. Like, you just can't. It's like, you're all right, mate. Yeah. Absolutely fine. Yeah, I mean, I'm all right in, like, a work context.

I'm quite good at just saying, like, this is not okay. stepping in there and having a tough conversation. But at home, I definitely kind of, my wife's a very strong-minded Spanish woman and she's mostly just telling me how I've done things wrong. That's how it goes. And I just accept it and I go, okay, fine. But I am thinking now of like the difference

between the conversations I've had, when I've had conflict with friends, when we've resolved it and we've repaired it, it's been, when we've had those conversations like, at the phone on person, there's been laughter in there. And like, I think that's a really important component of being able to have that lightness

and that laugh and it's like this, you know, this how I felt with this and this hurt me, but like, also, and then I did this and it was really, and you're like, I did this. And it's like, whereas the ones I've had where there's been no repair, it's just been heavy therapy, I felt harmed, I felt unsafe, I felt blah, blah, blah. And like, no kind of lightness in there. And maybe there's a bit of a correlation between what was able to be repaired and what wasn't because then you walk around carrying that weight of that really heavy, like, therapeutic speak.

And I think therapy is an amazing tool. I'm banging on about all the time at moment, because I'm in it again. Oh, it's good. But, as I saw a point recently, the therapy, like you have therapy, you go to therapy, you're in the room, you have the therapy, or you're on Zoom doing the therapy. And then you take it outside, maybe necessarily you don't have to use the same languages and stuff. Like, you can use the things you've learned, but maybe it doesn't have to be a therapy speaker. Maybe I find a little accent, though. I'm serious, I'm being converted to the idea that we are deadening a lot of our relationships and making them bureaucratic through using, misusing therapy speak constantly.

It's like trying to make it contractual as well. It's like, well, you do this and you do this. The problem is, I think this special one is not in a place to handle things lightly. They are in the fucking trenches of their own malcontent. So I think leave in the night, do what Lanre said. They're not going to leave. Just book. He's not going to leave.

He's not going to leave. He said it very clearly. He wants to now to kick his mate out. That's what he wants to know. I think if you're in a position of wanting to evict your friend, there are some problems in you first. Unless the girlfriend's really, annoying. But I don't think she can be that annoying.

No, no, no. Okay, so do we vote? Okay, let's vote. I vote. You want him to leave? Well, I mean, clearly, yes. You want him to leave. I don't think it's morally good, but I think he should stay so that his friend

can leave and make a fresh start and find happiness elsewhere. Because if he stays, he'll feel bad. And if he leaves his step-bed-bours, this guy needs to, like, understand the consequences of his bad, but mad mind. It's not a noble act of self-sacrifice. No, no, it's not. No, I mean, like, this guy who leaves. I, as a lever, it's so free.

So I think the person who leaves should be the one who's freer. And so like... Speaking of leaving. We need to leave. Thank you all so much for joining us for this very special If I Speak by. Please give Lanre a big round of applause. This has been If I Speak. You've all been so wonderful. Come see us outside and say hi.

Signing books. They will be signing books. The little social's going on outside. Please join everyone. join everyone. You have been here. We've all been here and we've held some space. Thank you very much.