If I Speak - 98: Are we obsessed with having our feelings validated?

Episode Date: January 27, 2026

Have we become reliant on having our feelings validated instead of taking valid criticism? Ash and Moya offer their own strategies for worrying less about what other people think. Plus: how to deal with an ex who’s found God and turned rightwing but is still hanging around. Join us at Crossed Wires festival in Sheffield on […]

I can dust while I'm doing it. I just want to put a tiny bit of colour on because I do look so pale. Welcome to an audio product where Moyer is putting on makeup. People don't know what I'm putting on this. I'm not doing any branded things. That's true. I mean, it is quite soothing to watch the way you're like dabbing at your face and dusting. Just panic dabbing and dusting.

Look, your cheekbones. I would do murders. I can see them right now. I want those ones. I want those ones. Anyway, welcome to If I Covet, a podcast about wanting to glom bits of your friend's anatomy onto your own face like your Buffalo Bill. Who are you? I was going to think of a deadly sin. Actually, no, that's going to be. This one of my questions, so we'll save that. I am Moira Lydian McLean, and you are.

I am and always have been. Ash Sarker. And before we get into it, before we get into it, do we have a live event coming up, Moia? We do, but when we, you know, up is subjective. Okay. It is on the calendar for this year. It's on the calendar for this year. And we want to book in your high summertime early. So if you are in Sheffield or the local environs on the 4th of July, you can come see us at CrossedWires Festival. You can get tickets at crossedwires. Live now.

And it's not just us who are going to be podcasting. Though I obviously think that we are the top drawer attraction. You know, we're the bearded lady of this damn thing. Don't say that. That's so much pressure. I mean, okay, what? Strong man? We could be the strong man.

I personally think the bearded lady is a bigger carnivore attraction. I was thinking more about us being. the top attraction because now we're going to have to go head to head with blind boy attractions yeah literally it must be said does command a wider audience than we currently do and is the nicest person ever and would never say something like on the top attraction because he's so humble no but that's the thing is that blind boy is obviously deeply reflective and very kind and whenever he talks it's like

he's drawing up water from a deep well within him me I'm just saying some shit which I'm going to instantly regret. Yeah, same. Sometimes I don't even know what I'm saying. It is true. Like you shouldn't just give everyone podcast mics. We do just be talking. But you know what? They did. And they also gave us a slot at crossed wires festival. They did. So if you're sick of people thinking before they talk and you want to see people feel instantaneously embarrassed by the words that just came out of them, mouths go to crossedwires. Live and come and see us. It would be really cool. Also, I love Sheffield. Big fan of Sheffield. Yes. I'm excited about Sheffield. I want to go on a long

walk in the peaks or just the surrounding Sheff. There's a really nice valley we went to last time. Hope Valley. Yes. Lovely. Great river. People swimming it. Which shocked me. You know that there's still swimbable creeks and rivers in this polluted land. Very nice. a bit too cold for me, but anyway, Moia, do you have some questions for me which aren't about rivers? I do have some questions for you. Also, we have to remind listeners that we are coming up to our 100th episode. We are. So we're going to do it to ask me anything, right? Yes. We've got two more, this is the first of two, so this is the 98th. 98th episode and then the next was the 99th. And so for our 100th, we are doing, ask us anything, which means... And we're going to be fully candid.

Yes. Well, what are we not? But send us in. You're ask us anything to if I speak at Navaramedia.com I will also do a call out on Instagram for special ones. Same here. But yes, send us your questions. We will answer them. We'll tell you our pin numbers, baby. It's a special occasion.

Jam, jab, jab, jab. Whoa. Contractually not obliged to do that. I will not be engaging in the pin number situation. But everything else, yeah, sure. I'll tell you about my bowel movements if you want, but I won't give you my bow movements. I do talk about toilet. I do talk about toilets. Sometimes. Right, question me. Right, question you. Reve up the machine.

Boom, bum, bum, bum, bum. Okay. In, uh, honour of January and the fact no one's going out, I've been thinking, what is your worst night out? What is the worst night out you've had? Um, hard. Hard to say because probably the worst ones are the ones that I have least memory of because I was too busy being sick or some such. So it's difficult to describe the ones that I had a part in making bad. Oh, there's one, but if I tell that story, I'll get in trouble. So I'm going to skip that. Maybe we'll save that. one for the 100th episode. Okay, there was, it wasn't a night out actually. I was remembering this recently with a friend with whom it involved, which is it was a friend's birthday party and we went to her family home and it was during the day and it was supposed to be like a sort of like nice garden party. And I don't know how this happened, but everyone just got so chaotically drunk. Like people went from sort of like zero to a hundred.

And there was so many different chaotic plot lines of like someone doing a lot of kissing of a few different individuals and, you know, other people having some tensions that on the train back to London, everyone started fist fighting. Like the boys started like proper fist fighting. and like I remember at one point just like holding on to someone's limbs and trying to like lock on like I was one of those windy bike locks to stop him from like decking someone else and for the life of me

I cannot remember why they were fighting I think they just got like too drunk on like what turned out to be quite lethal punch and also like getting the sun on their heads that combo has failed many people at Carnival it's the punch and the lack of water plus sun oh I remember one bank holiday

oh bad you don't realize because it feels amazing at the time and then suddenly you're so drunk and you realize that this is going to be the worst hangover you've maybe experienced to this day oh yeah oh yeah I think that was a pretty bad hangovers after that day. So chaotic. That is a bad night out.

Okay, that's a good one. Next question. Tony Montana versus Michael Corleone, who is winning? Michael Corleone is winning because Tony Montana obviously goes down in a blaze of glory. Say hello to my little friend. Michael Corleone dies of natural causes. Sorry if that's a spoiler for Godfather three. But if they go up against each other, is that happening?

Yeah, because Michael Corleone is the better strategist. Like Tony Montana, that's the thing, is that like, also he breaks the cardinal rule. What does he do? He gets high off his own supply. Michael Corleone doesn't. He just becomes more and more isolated by power and violence. Tony Montana is an impulsive man, which is also why he makes the mistake of double-crossing Sosa. shouldn't have double-crossed sosa.

I love Scarfei. I'm like, I watch this sleepily. I watch Scarfe sleepily if you wish. You can't watch that sleepily. I've watched it sleepily twice now. So I need, I've never like fully taken the plot in. Have you watched Heat? Michael Mann's Heat with Al Pacino Robert and Leroy.

I've not watched The Godfather. Ash's face is so shocked. You have to. I'm sorry, like it's so like it is just iconic for a reason. Even if you're not that into mafia movies and, you know, men struggling with, you know, having to love their wife or whatever. It is just, it is just fucking amazing cinema. But Heat, Heat is my all-time favorite cops and robbersville. Okay.

It's fantastic. And I'll tell you why I think you might like it. So the best scene in it, it's not the shootouts, it's not the car chasers. the shootouts and the car chases are amazing. It is, there is one single sit down between Robert De Niro and Al Pacino. And it's so tense and it's so intimate and it's almost like a date because it's this two men who've been pursuing each other who realize that there is only one person in the entire world who truly understands them.

It's the man sitting opposite on the table who has also taken her vow to kill him. It is amazing. Everything gets subsumed into date form. Ash Sarka quote. Even cups and robbers. So another funny thing that happened the other day was another man unprompted started talking to me out Maston Commander, which is very funny. So something that happened at our event for those who didn't come and also those he

weren't backstage with the legends, that is Ash's partner and Ash's housemate, who won great form, fantastic form. But also, it was, I came accompanied by three really tall men. So it was partner, housemate. and my other best friend who are all like six four. I felt like a son of my BFGs. Anyway, so Ash's husband is talking to me and he's talking about Ash loving master grander.

And I was like, that tracks obviously Ash has geese mentality. Like you guys all have geese mentality. You obviously all love that film because that is a famous meme film that men of a certain type cannot help but talk about. Or just like a certain type of person, like Giza mentality. If you say to a certain kind of person, oceans are battlefields. They're going to lose their fucking medulla.

And so, and this has also come out because it turned out Ash had not seen peep show. And I was like, oh my God, we've got until Master Kwan Smah. And then you bound over and your housemate goes, Ash, Master Nican, you went, I love that film, that fucking film. And I was the joy on your face talking about Maston Kraman. Miranda, but it made me like as someone brought up recently and I was like, this film really is, I'm trying to think of like, my, maybe, what's something that I bang on about? Call me by your name.

Like, that is, master commander is like the masterpiece. The, the, the, the, the, the, the pinnacle. The pinnacle. Yeah, for people who love the Roman Empire and like military strategy shit, but also Empire's Falling. Yeah. Even though it isn't really, yeah, anyway, it's that film. And I will one day watch it, but not to say. Anyway, last question.

Which of the seven, have I asked this before? Which of the seven deadly sins are you? I feel like I have. Oh, but the thing is, is that like I obviously know which one I am, which is I'm pride. That is also the one that I got given. I also got given that. Wait, I'm going to ask you which, okay, because I feel like I might have asked you this. So which of the virtues are you?

What are the virtues? Okay, I need to double check these. The virtues. I saw a good painting of them, the Uphazi. I've always wanted to go to the Uphi Oh oh oh you would Ash I've never been to Florence I've never been to Florence

And I really really really want to go You know I'm the biggest Florence ho in the world I'm such a whole I'm sure that's going to be like some kind of like Mereditchie mistress who like You know is looking down being like bitch you wish You would go crazy for Florence

Right what are the seven virtues Let me just find them They are humility, which counters pride, charity and generosity, chastity, patience, temperance, diligence industry and kindness gratitude. Probably diligence. Yeah, I think mine's diligence too. I think you've got kindness too, but I feel like diligence is the one that jumps out of me.

I was talking about this at the weekend as I was talking about how obviously kindness and empathy are super important, but also if you have a sense of political purpose, you also have to have a little shark that lives in you and the nose the blood. Yeah, and a ruthlessness, because if you're too kind, you undergo what happened to the man they sometimes call magic grandpa. Mm-hmm.

And that's why if John McDonnell had been elected as Labour League in 2015, I think we'd have a Labour government. Not the current one. I think we're trying it like 10 years ago. Let's save that big theory for another day. I think he's got more ruthlessness. Yeah, no. Well, it's sort of interesting.

Are we actually going to talk about this? I don't know. Ash, it's up to you. You're the... I think it's interesting because, yes, I think in 2015, John McDonald's the more ruthless figure. But 2018, 2019, he was playing quite a conciliatory role. Yeah.

with the sort of right-wing backbenchers, particularly the pro-Europe ones, which is interesting. I think he got there for honestly held reasons, but it certainly wasn't ruthless. No, but I think he went down that route because the overriding message of the Labour Party at that time was like this kindness, this generosity,

this grace towards our enemies, whereas I think he does naturally move towards more of the enforcer type. And I think if we'd lent into his enforcer type, and had him at the top, I think we would have gone a different way. The barrier. Yeah. The barrier of the movement.

And we wouldn't have to endure watching people go outside and in the form of your party, which would have been nice for everyone. So sad. So sad. Right. Shall we move on because I have an intrusive thought, which is not about the Labour left, thank God.

Yeah, you do. You do. Let's get on to that. Okay. So, this. So this was a thought that was kicked off by your least favorite subject, which is AI. But don't worry, we're not going to talk about AI for very long. It was just that was what catalyzed the whole, you know, a domino chain of ideas.

So over the weekend, I was reading news reports about a guy in the US who used chat GPT like a therapist. And because of how it's sort of programmed, the safeguards degrade over really, really long chats. So the safeguards are sort of like quite good if it's short and then they get worse and worse and worse. So because this guy was using it so much, the chatbot began to encourage his delusions of grandeur and reaffirmed beliefs that were obviously super duper tapped and it played a role in him stalking and harassing multiple women. And there are more and more cases like this and they're now being described as AI psychosis. So there was a really, really awful case not that long ago

where a man was alleged to have murdered his mother because the AI was affirming his delusion that she was part of a conspiracy against him. You know, there is this thing about ChatGBT, GBT, that it's like you're so right, like you're so special. She is in the CIA, da-da-da-da. And it led to this like terrible, terrible thing happening. But I don't really want to focus too much on AI.

It could be relevant to the discussion, but I don't want to focus too much on it, because obviously these are cases which involve men who probably have or had mental health issues before their interactions with the chat. The consequences of it were pretty extreme. So these are edge cases. But I do think that there is something which is much more widely applicable and widely relevant, which is the danger of being validated too much,

or the danger of being validated on the wrong things. Because I do think that it is such a part of our culture now to view being validated as an entitlement. And I think we seek it out more than ever and I think that we react really badly when we don't get it. And we also have all these concepts to turn not being validated into an act of aggression or hostility. So I have seen people apply the concept of gaslighting, you know, which is an abusive practice of deliberately separating somebody from their sense of reality, applying that to simply not being validated or being disagreed with on a read of a situation.

And we've talked about the abusive therapy language before, but I do think that it's quite important for thinking about this hostility towards not being validating. And there's obviously also social media, which allows you to cultivate a following of people who think that you're the dogs, bollocks, whatever you do. Maybe this was relevant to your party. I don't know. It also allows you to insulate yourself from the opinions of those who might be close to you in real life. So you cultivate an echo chamber deliberately so you don't have to engage with or think about what it is people who know you in real life and have a stake in your well-being, what it is they're telling you. talked about therapy language before. But I've also, I do think that sometimes people go to therapy because they're looking for an expert to validate their perspective and to buy in to a narrative of heroes and villains. So you know me, I'm a little piggy for Esther Perel.

Every time there's a new episode of where should we begin, I'm like, and there was one where, you know, there was a woman who had been cheated on and, you know, it was feeling very, very betrayed. and she came in with this whole sack full of concepts, which came from a different therapist that she'd been saying, which was like, he's a narcissist, he's a psychopath. And it was like, validate this, validate this read, that he's a narcissist and a psychopath.

And I think this kind of loops back to what it is we do in the podcast with the dilemma section. I'm in big trouble. Because I do try and keep it in mind that sometimes, what someone is writing in for as a validation of their perspective rather than for us to actually help them solve a problem. And there are occasions where it's important for us to validate someone's perspective

and I think that it is a helpful thing to do. But there are some occasions where I think that it's not healthy and we'd have an ethical obligation, not just to go along with it and to try and read between the lines a bit. What's interesting, though, is that sometimes, I think also earlier on in the show, some other people in the audience haven't liked it

when we've challenged a special one's take on things. And I remember a specific example where someone wrote in about a dynamic that they had with their partner, where their partner was very brusque and quite irritable. And she was quite sensitive and cried a lot. And I was like, oh, I think you guys are like incompatible.

And I sort of think that you're driving each other crazy with your communication styles. Like I don't think it's easy to live with someone who cries a lot. And similarly, it's not easy to live with someone who's very, very brusque. And someone gave feedback to that advice being like, you're invalidating their experience, you're dismissing the possibility that they're a victim of emotional abuse, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't remember that. Yeah, I remember it really well because I was like, what the fuck.

I only remember it when people say that I shouldn't talk as much. Oh. Well, maybe it's that thing, right? You always remember someone having negative feedback for you and then everything else who are like, I feel like you get lovely feedback. Not always. Not always. They like, shut up.

So don't forget, I have YouTube products. I know just how much men hate me. and the sound of my voice. I mean, do you want to know the weirdest negative feedback I ever got? No, that would be sad. It was so weird. It was on an episode of downstream, I think,

and someone commented, oh, you wouldn't see Amy Goodman using blusher to, what is it, artificially create the sense that she'd just had an orgasm? Oh yeah, you've told me about it. It's so odd. So, so weird.

Such an insight to that person's brain. Yeah, it was really fucking weird. But anyway, I want to come back to the intrusive thought, which is this. Have we all become validation addicts? If so, what happened to make us this way? And where is the line between a healthy amount of validation or a healthy attitude towards validation and it becoming too much? Well, I guess the question is, do you?

know much about how validation culture worked in the past? So pre-internet, do we know much about the desire for validation that our parents might have experienced or their parents? Do we have much evidence that they were constantly seeking someone to underscore their opinions and what they did and their decisions and legitimize them? Because that would be where I first would start. Like, I need to ask my mum, when you made the decision, did you care? if someone agreed with it? Did you care? Because obviously the 101 thing that jumps out

is the idea that we do live now in like a social panopticon and that everyone is watching your move, even though they're not. But you feel like everyone's watching your every move. And because that takes the form of very simple morality plays again and again, there's become this need to make sure that you're always right and you're perfect. Someone told me a story really recently about something that happened to them some like abuse they'd received on a platform. And their friend is an influencer and their friend put up some stories about this abuse. And they said all this nice stuff about the person who's been abused, including like, you know, they're this and that.

And basically made them out to be this like perfect saint of a person. And a friend was telling me the story is like, that's really nice, but that wasn't me. Like I'm not I'm not that good a person. And I was like, yeah, but because your other friend was having to turn this into morality play, you have to be impeccable in the eyes of the viewing audience. Otherwise, you won't gain the sympathy. So when we're framing stories on social media, it becomes very binary, very simple. And I think that has definitely accelerated a culture where everyone wants to have their perspective validated

because they know if you're not the hero, you're the villain. and you have to, they don't, and people can't trust themselves to make their own decisions or judgments about whether something is right, wrong or in a grey area. They have to, I'm not saying everyone, but a lot of people are like, if I'm wrong, then I'm bad. That's become equivalent. Like, if I'm wrong, I'm bad. And if I'm bad, then I don't deserve anything. I don't deserve love, blah, blah, blah, because they see the way that others get punished for making mistakes. I think those things are probably underpinning it. And also the idea that your feelings have to be valid or your feelings are always valid in order for them to be legitimised.

And when my friend says this a lot, like even when she's talking about she's saying something like that's gently pushing back against someone's decisions or gently confess, be like, oh, your feelings are valid. I'm like, my feelings are valid a lot of the time. Like, I don't think feelings are valid. I think feelings exist.

I think that you can be feeling something, and that is a fact. But the feeling itself is not a fact, and the feeling itself might not be valid at all. Speaking as someone who gets violently angry whenever I'm a bit peckish, it's like, that is not a valid feeling. No. And I don't know if this is just within the women circles that I inhabit. There is a tiptoeing now around. how we discuss each other's nonsense that I find quite interesting, which I've talked about before.

And there's a, yeah, there's like, I think obviously there should be softness and care. But there is a real sort of like treading on eggshells, cotton wool approach to giving advice, talking about your feelings are valid. I totally get it. that's really understandable. And maybe that's the right approach. But sometimes I do think you need to be like, your feelings aren't valid.

And that's okay too. Like it doesn't make you a bad person because otherwise you just get into a place where everything has to be validated in order for it to exist in the first place. And also everyone has to be told that it's fine. It's okay that you're feeling like this, blah, blah, blah. Sometimes when you kick up the arts,

the other day I was talking to, yeah, I was talking to someone about, we're having a discussion about something that I'd done. that was slightly clumsy and unthinking, and it kind of hurt them a little bit. And it wasn't a big deal. But when we started having this discussion, I was like, the fact it's been brought on means it's a big deal, I'm a bad person, all of this. And they were like, no, no, no.

They're like, no, no, no, this is a very small thing. I'm just telling you the impact it had on me. This does not need to go further than the hour we have here where we have discussed it. Meanwhile, you're already putting your wrist and your head in the stocks. Yeah, in the stocks because I'm like, fuck, I'm going to have to do so much penance. Like, I've made them feel terrible, like, da-da-da. And they would, the way they handled this was just like, I started saying some stuff where I was like, everyone's mad at me, j-d-d-d-da, because I felt like different people annoyed me about different things.

And those were not valid feelings. And they were gently, like, I think you're conflating things. I think you're conflating things. and I think that also you've somehow turned yourself into the victim here and there is no victim and you don't need to be the victim there's something so interesting in what you're saying and I think it's about the way in which a need for validation and shame exist hand in hand and one intensifies the other

because I was thinking about an interaction that I had with somebody not that long ago where they were talking about a situation and a dynamic with someone else in their life that, you know, they find difficult. And they said their piece and it was, it was very much like, and they do this and they do that and they do this and da da da da and I was like, how it sounds to me like you, you feel really judged by this person and they came back at me quick as a flash and they were like, I don't feel judged by this person. I am judged by this person. Like it was a real don't you do. even imply that there is a difference between feelings and reality.

Like it was a real like, kind of moment. And something that I know about this person is that they are exquisitely sensitive to feeling judged, that they have felt very judged and very shamed at various points in their lives. And now I think they, have gotten to a place where their life and their status is more solid, they're not able to disentangle from that. It's still this defensiveness around my take on reality is right and

this other persons is wrong. Like if there is a divergence in feelings, someone has to be right and somebody has to be wrong. And for someone who has been very judged themselves, they are they're not just quick to judge others, it's a language that they speak. Yeah. Like it's so woven into everything. And so yeah, I do you think that shame and need for validation

are very tightly linked. And so then coming back to the social panopticon element of the way in which all of us exist in that and are so sensitive to feelings of shame and embarrassment and judgment online is then what that does for our need to validation. Yeah, exactly. Honestly, it's funny you say this

because I've been thinking about this quite a lot when I'm in my deep TikTok holes because that's a platform that is just the short form equivalent of Am I the asshole on Reddit? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where everyone brings their stuff to the court tells the story from their side

and gets very annoyed if the comments don't agree. There was a woman the other day who was telling a story about how she didn't stand for bullshit and it transpired the bullshit was she was 20 minutes late to a date and the guy left

and I was like... I don't know. Yeah, and I'm like... And then in the comments she was like fighting for her life. Like, no, I did text him beforehand. Babe, you were late. You were late to the date.

He has every right to leave, sorry. And that's okay. Like, it doesn't meet your bad person. It means either you date someone who's fine with you being late or you sort your lateness out. But it also, you can accept that sometimes you'll do,

not even bad things, but just things that are not befitting of maybe the person you want to be or the standards you want to set. Okay, so here's a good example. I was stewing for several weeks because a friend went drunk, told something to me about a mistake I made last year

that I hold a lot of shame about. And they were like, no, you should feel bad because it was a bad thing you did. And that was a horrible way to put it. Not going to lie, but they were pissed. And I was just sitting on that. And I was like, really, is that what they think?

I'm a terrible person. And then I was just kind of like, actually, do you know what? I know they don't think that about me all the time. Like, I know they don't think that about me all the time. Like, yeah, the way they put that was not the best. But why does it always have to be the best? Like, yeah, it was a bad thing I did.

And I do, but I do have to also get over it. Because otherwise I'm going to react every single time with that defensiveness and that level of just like shame. And it's my shame that's really making me react to that comment. If I actually managed to process that and be like, know, I have learned from that mistake, which I think I have. It wouldn't affect me so much. So it's a real case about, like, I don't think the way the friend said it was particularly

helpful, but I was also like, no, this is either going to dog me for the rest of my life or I just need to fucking get over it and accept that I did that, you know? It doesn't mean I'm a terrible person for the rest of my life. I really, really get into, like, shame and embarrassment loops. Like, you leave me alone with my own brain. I'll just be like, bad Dobby, bad Dobby, bad Dobby. Like it's so annoying. Do you know what I mean?

Like it's annoying for myself to live with. And I think it's also annoying for other people to live with because there is a kind of narcissism about it, right? And a sort of inability to be like accepting of your own flaws and imperfections. And also it does become a bit all about you when you're like, bad Dobby, bad Dobby. Dobby's a narcissist. He's saying his own name all the time. all the time

literally and on that as well actually I think self-soothing is a big part of this yeah because the reason we go we outsource like the need of validation from others is because we can't self-sooth and I don't mean that you shouldn't

look to your friends and loved ones for support you absolutely should use those people around you to like hold you up but you can't go to them for everything every time you feel unsettled or feel like you need to work through an emotion and just like ask them all the time to soothe you because then you don't have

any you don't have any resilience in yourself and am I good am I good am I good am I good am I good am I good person am I doing the right thing am I a good person um and you won't you won't even you won't you won't you won't develop the mechanisms that make you actually believe that you can act in like a way that are caused with your morals and values and ethics and that when you make mistakes you can deal with them and they won't ruin your life, you will always have to find someone else to soothe you. And that becomes a very unhealthy dynamic and will probably exacerbate feelings of shame and judgment because sometimes they will judge you. I also think there's a difference between reassurance and soothing. And I was thinking about this because the bad dobbie thing is something

that my friend said and it made me laugh so much because we were talking about this exact thing. We were talking about when you feel you've made a social faux part and you're just like, and I guess it's time to walk into traffic. Your sense of perspective is just completely gone. And so she was said bad Dobby and I was in pieces. Like you know when you're laughing so hard that you're like, I think I could piss myself right now. Like this might be the time.

And the release that you get from laughing with someone at your own absurdity is so much better. from the cheap little balm of someone saying, no, you're good, that didn't happen that way. Don't worry, don't worry, don't worry. And I think that, like, laughing about something is also a way in which you can incorporate something having been suboptimal or embarrassing or, like, whatever, into your sense of, like, yeah, that did happen

without it being super, super, super scary. And so I think that, like, again, this is the thing about validation is that it's one tool and it's one, one, one ingredient, but there are so many other tools and ingredients, some of which might be better suited to like what you actually need to do. So like laughing about something, I think is like a way to find, oh, acceptance of like, oh shit, I did this thing and it was embarrassing or it was shit or whatever. I think there is also another thing. And I think this is sort of about how do you not either react so defensively or take something in to the point where you're like,

and it is time for me and, you know, the exhaust pipe of a car to make very good friends. You know what I mean? Like, how can you, how can you chat a middle path through that? And this was something that actually came up for me kind of recently where someone very close to me sort of. or not sort of, said that somebody else, whose opinion matters to me probably the most in the world, said they think you're selfish,

that you don't give a shit about anyone other than yourself and your career. And I took that home, and I took that home to my partner, and I was like, well, so-and-so says that, so-and-so thinks that, you know, I'm really selfish and blah, blah, blah, blah. and through talking it through with my partner the place that I got to wasn't and fuck everybody

and it wasn't and yes I am this way it was people think things about you and sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong yeah and I know that sounds so simple but it took me ages together well it's so simple but like I still am not 100% there like there's people in my life you can say stuff and I'd be like, sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. Whereas if it's an anonymous commentator online, I'm like, they're so right. I need to like just Harry Carrey myself now

so that they don't have to hear my aggravating voice anymore. If you don't like listening to my voice, don't listen to the podcast guys. Bad dummy. That's just a tip. Just a tip for you. But yeah, it also depends on like the person and how well you know them

because if it's someone that you really respect, as you said, and care about their opinion more than anything else in the world, it is hard to detangle the idea that they might be wrong, not wrong about something. I mean, this was the thing, which is like, this is somebody who is like the voice of my super ego. Do you know what I mean?

So it was a thing of going like, actually they're not the alpha and the omega. Like, they're a person. And they might have said this. They might have said this in a different way with a totally different intention and meaning. They might have not said it, and this is like, you know, kind of bullshit on someone else's part.

But also, regardless of what was said and how they meant it, it's not, they're not a judge with the power to sentence me to death. Like, they might be wrong, and I have to find a way to put some distance between the reflection that I'm getting back of myself and myself. And also when you come to that place, it becomes less about being validated. Like suddenly you don't need to be validated more

and instead you can actually sift through the material you have and think, what about this might actually be useful for me to act on? What do I actually not need? Like, what has struck a chord? And then we think, okay, that's... So when I had that, like, minor conflict about conflating different things, that's really helped me and the way that I go about conflict now

because I think, hang on, hang on, am I bringing in like six different cases into the courtroom right now or am I just focusing on the thing that's actually in front of me and they were actually talking about? And the next time I had a discussion with this person that could have been quite difficult.

They were like, good, that was so, they were like, you handled that so well. And also they said to me, they were like, oh, I said some things there that probably were quite unfair, but you didn't actually respond in the way, like you didn't respond in a crazy win. I just am really impressed by that as well.

And I was like, yeah, because you taught me the terms that we're discussing on. It's not a fight, it's a discussion. I mean, I suppose like, I feel like we're sort of naturally coming towards, like, the end of this discussion. But I think before we do, what are your recipes for self-soothing?

Okay. I mean, obviously I'm not perfect. A lot of them. Who is? Get out of town. My recipes are this. First of all, sometimes you want to send a text immediately.

That was always a bad idea. Whether it's the text immediately to the group chat, the text immediately to the person involved, you have to take a few hours, first of all. Put the phone down, do something else, listen to the music, go outside for a big, long walk. I promise you, whatever is sent in the heat of the moment, whether that is seeking this like self-soothing

or whether that is directly responding, you will always regret it on some level. Even if what you say fundamentally lines up with how you feel later, you will regret the way you word it. You will regret the way, the state of mind you sent it in. And there's things you say there that can't really be taken back,

even if they're not angry, like you put them out there. And it's fine, it's not the end of the world. Like I've got a friend who had like a, you know, a flare up the other day and like sent something to someone. It was fine. The person they sent it to was like, it's chill. But they were like, or should I just like, wait in a few hours

and soothed myself before I did that. So that's my first thought. I think, yeah, time. That's my major one. If I'm giving you one takeaway, what's yours? I think take time is really, really good advice. And that was something that, it wasn't to do with, like, validation or, like, me feeling shit.

It was a situation where I felt pressure to respond and come to a decision really quickly. and in doing that it just like set off like a chain of consequences where you're like no no no no no no no no no no no and I look back on that situation and I go if I had just said no one is getting anything out of me before the end of the day yeah like how different could it have been yeah and so I think that take time is like capital letters tattoo it on your brain um take time make time if you do you do you don't if you feel we don't have it, make the time be like, no. Like, no one is getting a reaction out of me until I've settled my nervous system. Like, we make so much artificial urgency. I mean, we obviously have a 24-hour culture of replying, responding notifications. With anything, if you bake in delayed responding time and you create that as like a

regular feature of your communications, it will improve them so much because you're actually thinking about what you're saying and how you're communicating with that person. Better yet, call them. Take time call them. Take time like actually meet them. I find that mediums like WhatsApp are just really, or like, you know, online comments just really bad and flattening when you're having a reaction and when you want to self-sooth. They're not going to, they just make you feel rushed and urgent.

and none of that is real. This is not an emergency. No one, like, unless someone is that you having a heart attack in front of you, you don't have to make an immediate decision about something. And that's not a self-soothing situation. That's something else altogether. Yeah. I mean, I think the other thing, and this is like an important ingredient for self-soothing,

is who are you? Kofi Annan? It's not that serious. It's not that serious. And that little bit of perspective and the ability to laugh at your own absurdity is so important. So that's why I think self-soothing isn't necessarily. about withdrawing from people and go,

I have to do with this on my own. It's also what kind of energy from other people is acceptable to me. And I have this with my partner and my housemate especially, but in particular, I think that this is like a defining feature of all of my closest friends is that ability to laugh your way out of feeling kind of shit. And I think that that's so genuinely soothing, because you do feel you've had a kind of catharsis.

Yeah. Like you feel that there's been a kind of like cathartic release in your body and there's been like, you know, whatever it is that's been building up in you, you're able to like expel it. So I think that would be my other thing is that self-seithing isn't just about taking yourself to the side and dealing with something alone. It's also about going, all right,

the feeling of craving reassurance, there's actually lots of ways to deal with that. And maybe reassurance isn't the best way. And also another thing I'd say, say, just to add on to this, is when you go to your friends for what you think is advice, you need to ask yourself, am I looking for advice or am I looking for validation? Because otherwise the reaction will be very different to what you want. Like, what is your stated purpose here?

Make sure you are being aligned. Sometimes I say to my partner, before I get into the story, I'm like, do you not present me with any solutions? Just tell me I'm right. Yeah. Sometimes we're like, in the group chat now, are like, do you want to vent or do you want advice? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And usually it's to vent.

So, okay. Go ahead. That's cool. Vent. Right. Should we get into the venters? Let's get into the venters. How do you become a venter?

If you'd like to vent to us, send, which is asking us for advice, actually. Don't vent to us. We're giving advice here. This is not a validation factory. If you would like some advice from me or ash, send an email to you if I speak at navaramedia.com. That is, if I speak. and Navaramedia.com. Shall I read this out?

Yeah. Right. Hi, Ash and Moyer. I have a dilemma. About a year ago, my long-term partner and I split up. During our last year together, my previously left-wing ex became increasingly interested in Christianity

and found God. I supported him through this and even went along to church with him for quite a while. I wasn't on board with being religious myself. I was brought up Catholic and I firmly rejected everything that rotten institution stands for, but I loved him and wanted him to be happy. I guess this is the same person, just to be clear. The long-term partner is the left-way acts.

Over time, his religion became less reflective and more separatist and conservative, and increasingly I had to assert some hard boundaries as to what was acceptable to me. His tone became homophobic, transphobic, very paranoid, anti-progress, and increasingly anti-feminist, even anti-vats. He asked for us to stop having sex until we are married and suggested that women are better suited to domestic tasks than men. At the same time as this was happening, other stuff in our relationship went downhill,

and eventually he said that being in a relationship with me was incompatible with his spiritual calling. Through all of this, I did not speak to any of our mutual friends about what was happening because I felt ashamed for him. My best friend is partnered with my ex's best mate. After the breakup, my friends found his change in beliefs very troubling and unpalatable. But despite expressing disgust with him, they're still an occasional contact,

and they have a large role in my friend's wedding this year. I've been very understanding of the dilemma my friends find themselves in, but I feel my pain and loss from such a weird situation is still not acknowledged. I can understand them not wanting to judge my ex, but for such vocal, hardline political people. They have a blind spot with this man. They say, they assume he is ill, which I find offensive. He is sanctimonious and not open to debate around his faith, so I don't think there's going to be much exploratory dialogue

or bridge building going on between them. Why isn't this a red line for my friends? There's so much hypocrisy at play here. What can I do? Should I do anything? Am I the asshole? Ash. Are they the ash hole?

Ash hole. Nutella just dropped. Oh my God. The Barmei Armei are out of force today. I'm adding a new disgusting word to my sexual lexicon. Ash hole. Okay. Ashhole. Aschole. Ashhole play.

I don't think the actual problem is about your friends. A special one. You experienced a profound betrayal. That's exactly what I was thinking. Because you established a committed relationship on the basis of shared values. His values radically changed. changed and you somehow took that on as your duty to protect him from the opprobrium of others. And you felt that you were complicit in protecting some kind of shameful secret

that you had made compromises in your own integrity and belief. because you were trying to make a relationship work and it didn't. And I think that you're dealing with feelings of shame and feelings of having been betrayed. And maybe because deep down you feel that you didn't on that when you perhaps could have in the relationship, you're now kind of externalising that onto your shared friendship network. And you go, why don't you act?

Like, why don't you act? And it's kind of an externalisation of what possibly you were feeling about yourself. I mean, you know, you've said that they're in occasional contact. He's got a large role in your friend's wedding this year. I mean, you've already said that your ex's best friends with what the bride or the groom, one of them. I mean, yeah, I'll probably have a large role. I think this is to do with you processing what you perhaps view as your own complicity in his, you know, radical shift to becoming quite reactionary.

And you're not actually going to be able to deal with those feelings or process those feelings if you're making demands of your friends, to be honest. It's how you feel about yourself, special one. But what do you reckon? I actually have nothing to add. That was a perfect encapsulation of what I think is going on. I'm just trying to be like you. No, no, no.

That was, it was so dead on. Sometimes I don't actually have to add anything because that was so good. Like, you hit the nail on the head. This person, she went out with this person who went against every single value that she thought, they shared. She's saying the relationship to the point that he dumped her. And now you're saying about your friends, why won't they dump him? Sweden, oh, I say she, I don't actually know the gender of this person, sorry. They, person, I think we need to look at our own decisions here. And that's okay. No one's the asshole. Like, are you the asshole? No, you're not the asshole. You're someone

who had a very traumatic breakup and tried to make a relationship work and feels, as Ash said, that you've been betrayed in both the process of the sacrifices you made in trying to make that work and now because your ex is still in your vicinity and periphery and it reminds you of what happened and the choices that you made. But it's okay. We all make choices when we're in love. Now you need to move forward. Your friends have got nothing to do with this. I think that phrasing of like because I felt ashamed for him. I mean like I think loads of people in long term relationships do this which is you sort of feel that you have to protect their reputation from your shared group of friends or community and that means that you don't reach out for help with your experience of the things that you're finding difficult and maybe you could or you should and then you feel so pissed off and resentful that you kept it all inside for that long. and also post a standard breakup anyway

without your ex getting radicalised there's always that knee-jerk reaction of like why are you still friends with them but you have to tamp that down you have to accept that you don't have jurisdiction over who your friends are friends with and yes if he'd done something that was truly like

abusive I think we'd be talking about this slightly differently but he betrayed you but he didn't violate you. I mean, I sort of think that like, even then, like, it's really hard to demand that someone sever their connection to someone who's even done those things.

Hold them accountable, yes. Yeah. Like not let the violation slip away and out of view, yes. but like sever is sort of, that's just something that I don't feel super sure about. Yeah. But I think we'd have more of a discussion around that,

whereas there's some pretty clear cut, like, it's actually not your business. And that's okay. Your business is working through your feelings about this relationship and the choices you made and why you made them and accepting them and getting rid of the shame. It takes a long time.

to fully puzzle out and make sense of the end of a long-term relationship. Like, those feelings have such a long tail. Like, to this day, I have recurring dreams that I bump into one of my exes, and it turns out I've forgotten to break up with him. And, you know, it's been more than a decade since we were together. And in my head, I'm, like, consumed by guilt and shame. But I mean, Ash is so right though, when you get into new things as well, you'll be totally over someone, but there'll be parts of you that the new relationship will unlock memories, they'll unlock feelings that you didn't know we're like buried in there still because it's not a place you've, it's not sediment you've been able to clear out on your own. Like every relation unlocks your old relations.

I mean, I thought, I don't mean this in the like the toxic manosphere way. when they sort of say like every woman carries the man that she's da-da-da-da-da, because they're sort of thinking about it in quite a visceral bodily way, but I guess I'm talking about like spiritually, psychologically, emotionally. It's like every relationship that you have does stay with you for a while. And like something of that person like is alive within you. And sometimes that's great and that feels great. And you're like, you know, I've got so much from this person or I learned so much.

sometimes you wake up at the middle of the night going, fuck. And then the nightmare's over. Also, this person's only been about, out of this situation for about a year. Like, they'll only stop being, they're still processing. Sorry, you're still processing.

100%. And that's okay. And right, we finished processing for one episode, I think. Pee, p, p, p, p. We will see you next week's special ones for our 19th episode. So don't forget to ask us anything at if I speak at navaramedia.com. We will await your emails. We'll await your emails, missives, whatever.

All right. Bye. Bye.