If I Speak - 99: How do you know when it’s time to quit?

Episode Date: February 3, 2026

Moya has been breaking the habit of a lifetime by choosing to stick with her choices rather than quit. She asks Ash how to trust your gut when it comes to leaving or staying, whether it’s a job, friendship or romance. Plus: would you use Chat GPT to name your baby? Next week it’s our […]

Ash, I need a massage so bad. When was your last massage? My last massage was in 2025 and I went to the Thai place that is like maybe a 20 minute walk from my house. And basically some tiny, very, very strong ladies like kind of climb on you. And it was fantastic. She did this thing with the heel of her hand under my shoulder blade, which was spectacular. I've got debilitating. Upper back pain.

I'm so tense. You know what's really good for upper back? Are you feeling it under your shoulder blades? No, I'm feeling it like here in the meat of my... Oh, in the meat. The meat. I think for that, hanging upside down with your fingers clasped on the back of your skull to give it a bit of weight helpful.

I just need to go get a massage and I never get massages in the UK. because they're always very expensive and I'm worried about getting it wrong anyway that was a cold open hi welcome special ones what are they listening to ash they're listening to if I speak if I speak

your 99th if I speak on the verge right on the precipice the precipice that means it's almost been two years yeah of if I speak I cannot believe

Has it actually been two years? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What on earth has happened in those two years? Where has the time gone? It flew. It flew. Look at 2026 now place.

People are invading other countries again. The old right, the might is right. World Doctrine is back. Can you believe it? And we're doing a podcast festival in Sheffield. On July the 4th. You can get your tickets from crossedwires. Live. That's crossedwires.org.

I think there might even be a link as well in the description, but don't quote me on that. Okay, fabulous. Ash, you've got some questions for me, so let's just crack on. I do. So in the grand tradition of Condé Nast's 73 questions, we've got 73 questions minus 70. It's three questions for those of you who are bad at maths.

Question one, I have a new axis. Oh! Sorry, I got too excited. I got too excited Okay, hit me I'm so ready I'm girded The axis is

Access The axis is this So your X axis Your horizontal Is hot head Neurotic And your white axis Your vertical axis

Is buttery acidic Love Oh it's hard Head neurotic buttery acidic. This is harder than I thought it would be because I do regularly get called neurotic.

But other people think I'm a hothead. I'm an acidic neurotic. You're an acidic neurotic. I think I'm an acidic neurotic. I think I skew acidic neurotic, but maybe I'm actually... Can you see? Here.

Yeah, because I would say that you are neurotic with hothead characteristics. Yeah. Well, actually, how does it work? If I do it like, yeah, you're up there. Where are you? I would say that I'm a buttery neurotic. Yeah.

Yeah. I think you have occasional hothead flare-ups if you're really provoked. But I think you're more neurotic. I'm definitely more neurotic than hothead. But the thing is, is that I tend not to flare into being a hot head. I tend to go, I'm choosing to entertain. my hot head urges.

Yeah, was I don't think I have much control. I just go, but also a lot of my hotheadedness is neuroticism. And panic about control. So it's a hot-headed neuroticism, just delivered in hot-head form. How did you come up with this axis?

What was the integration? This came up because me and my housemate were having a conversation where we were doing broad brush stereotypes of different countries. Love. Where we were saying hot head or neurotic. and England is neurotic

England is neurotic but also some countries that some other people would peg as hothead I'm like no no no they're actually neurotic so Italy I would say there's a difference that's gendered as well women hothead men neurotic Italian men are neurotic

Italian women are hotheads Iran hotheads every Iranian I know is a hot head and I love that about them Yes, they are. India, so neurotic. Neurotic is hell. Neurotic as hell.

So, so neurotic. So neurotic. What's America? America depends if you're coastal or not. Coastal, neurotic, the rest is hothead. Hmm. Oh, I love this. And what about the buttery acidic?

Buttery acidic was, I was thinking about it both in terms of like, like, what do you draw for in your cooking, but then also what is the vibe you bring? Is it a buttery acidic? buttery vibe or is it an acidic vibe? You're so buttery. You're lubricant. Whereas I'm definitely acidic.

But acidic is also brightness. So it's not just, obviously the, it's not just sour. Negative side of buttery is sort of like, it's a bit like coagulated and slow and sluggish. And the, you know, negative side of acidic is like a kind of bitchiness.

But it's also brightness. It's zing. It's... It lifts a dish. Pepp in the step. Pepp in the step. I'm so acidic, I can't even tell you. What a great little axis.

Right. Hothead neurotic. Love that. Thank you for that. Okay. Question two. What's your relationship with risk like? What's your appetite for risk?

Low. Low as fuck. I've never stolen, I think. Never? No. Not even some chitty. No, I mean, I've accidentally once or twice walked out

with like chewing gum, but it accidentally and nearly went back. Sometimes I have gone back on like, oops, sorry. I have a very low appetite for risk. It's getting better. I'm getting hungrier for risk, but I think it's something about growing up in a very small rural place. Social penulticon. Social penulticom with fewer escape routes.

But I, I don't know because, yeah, all my friends who are from, like, towns and cities, God Almighty, they were fucking thieving like no one's business. They were like, oh, yeah, obviously you ever went through a shoplifting place. Not me. Not me. Not me. Certainly not I.

Yeah, I'm a good law-abiding young lady. And even, you know, like, something I've always been drawn to in the people I date is they are always habitual line-steppers. Charlie Murphy. Yeah, exactly, Charlie Murphy. And I said this to the guy I'm currently dating. And he was like, yeah, I am. And this was just after he'd walked up to a portion of the place we were in that said, do not go in, he was like, I'm going to have a look.

And I was like, there's literally a sign. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, I won't stop you, but you have to know that I will pretend I'm not with you. And that's okay. Like, I will let you do what you want. My partner is the same. And he views sort of like airport. instructions on like baggage limits as an their opening negotiating position exactly it's an

opening it's like a cue is there not for not for them like there's a way around like oh it says you can't get in but what if we just talk to them oh it says that I can't take this thing the checking girl's like oh I can't take your laptop sorry we're full oh but surely you can't surely for me surely for me and then they do and that's why I always date habitual line-steppers because they do push my horizons and allow me to sometimes jump the fence and tell me, you know, rules are there. Some rules are very hardline, you will find out,

and some rules are there to be nudged at. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I presume that you are also, what's your risk? My appetite for risk is low. In some ways, right? Like, I would say it's very low, but then also I do a job where people really want to murder me and I'm like, oh, that's fine.

Yeah. Yeah, you do have a high profile position with like people wanting to murder you which I guess is quite risky but then you're very dedicated to the political cause that fuels that it's an interesting question I don't know because I was saying this to

my partner I was like you know my appetite for risk a solo like you want to do crazy shit and he's like have you seen your job and I was like that's not the same you want to go swimming in the sea I do like swimming in the sea is that risky okay I'm going to tell you a story I'm going to tell you a story about him

about when we went to Mexico So we were... There's a ways that are crazy. I wouldn't swim the nose. Right. And it was the Pacific Coast, right? The Pacific Coast. And we were at a place called

Zipolite, which is very beautiful on the Oaxo Coast Line. And there was a beach which was literally nicknamed Pallaya de los Muetos. Death Beach. Death Beach.

And he was like, I'm going to go for a swim because we were actually saying near Zipolite in a place called Mazzente. And I was like, oh, I've got a bit of work to do. I'll come, like, meet you there. And I was like, but be careful. It's called Death Beach. And he was like,

oh, Ash, that could mean anything. That could mean anything. Playa, Dennis Spirotos, that could mean anything. So he went down to the beach with two people that we'd met and become friends with. And I got a text from one of them. And the first line I read was, your partner's name says, don't be angry. And I was like, okay, he says don't be angry. That means he's alive. But he went swimming and he got stung by a stingray. Like he just like stood on it and it's, you know, venomous tail lashed up. And, you know, the lifeguard like saw him starting to like founder and like went in and got

him. And I was like, oh my God, I can't believe he got Steve Irwin. And so I like, I jumped on like, you know, one of the sort of like rickety open. electivos to like go down and I just saw him there looking so sorry for himself with his foot in a bucket of boiling water which is what they do to draw out the venom and he was like I know I know totally different appetites to risk you fuck around and find out I would not get in the water at death beach no I wouldn't that there's something that the guy I'm dating is doing now and I was like oh so you have survival skills and he was like what do you mean survival schools

It's just normal. And I was like, most people don't go into the wilderness on their own in the middle of winter with only the ability to like, the only thing that will keep you alive is if you can light the fire. He's like, I don't have survival skills. I just, you'll find out if you don't have them. Yeah, literally, I was like, that's bushcraft. And he was like, no, it's not. And they started showing me the knife he was taking.

And I was like, the fact that you, that he was like, yeah, it's this kind of knife, which means that you can split the wood. And I was like, what are words are you saying to me? These are survival skills. I don't have these. I will die if I do what you're doing right now. But you know, it's risk. It's risk.

And he was like, yeah, there's a small chance I'll like, but I'll be fine. There's no signal, but I'll be fine. Final question. Okay. Best snack at the cinema. Now, you may interpret this as the best snack you can get at the cinema, or if you are like me and you strap packets of Bombay mix to your leg like El Chapo.

the best snack to take into the cinema. That makes me feel like you're going to Genesis because Genesis is the only one who checks your bag. Everywhere else is very demure, very polite, and knows that if they're going to charge you extortionate prices to come in, or in beloved Peck and Pek and Pekykemplex, they don't charge you that and don't check you, then yes, you should have the right to bring in your outside snacks.

Except Genesis, which is a foul place, just check you. Checks you like a common criminal. The IMAX as well. Oh, I've paid 12. five for a fucking Genesis ticket. Shit cinema, shit smell, shit seats,

shit vibe. I hate it. People are like, oh, Genesis, support independence. Not that one. Not that one. Best snack. Honestly, the best snack is actually the pick and mix that you get.

That's another thing about Genesis. Genesis has bad pick a mix. No, it's bad. It's stale. And I sometimes like stale, but it's a type of stale. Bad, bad pick a mix selection. Pick a mix is my cinema.

snack because I don't want to stick to one thing in the cinema. I want a sense, I want a range of sensations and stimulations in my little pot. So, so, bobbly sensation in their mouse. Yeah. Whereas like, sometimes yeah, I want my chocolate raisins, but then I get bored of them halfway through. Whereas the picker mix has everything I want. Chocolate coloured fudge, chocolate coloured fudge, chocolate covered fudge, fizzies, gummies, those pencils, that contain a million pounds of sugar in one small pencil. Oh. Pick a mix, I'm afraid to say.

I'm a basic bitch. I'm a basic bitch. But I see that you... Do you actually take Bombay mix? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, Bombay mix. Like, honestly, like, to get into the IMAX,

where me and my friends were going to see... It was one of the new Star Wars films. I did just stuff so much. But, like, I was, like, rustling as I was going up the stairs. Like, all of them in my shelves. There's probably to smuggle drugs. Yeah. I literally was like, I am El Chapo.

Yeah, Al-Snacco. El Snacco. But yeah, I'm a pick-in-knack-Barr. Pablo Snacobar. Oh, now we're cooking. We just cooked. That was great. Okay.

Right. I have. Is it an intrusive, what would I call this? Oh, it's a big question. An intrusive question. Or a big question. An intrusive question. So my intrusive question.

question of the day is, how do you know when to leave and how do you know when to stay? So I've been puzzling over this. Like, when do you know what time to quit something, whether that's a job, a relationship, a friendship, versus when do you know that you should stay and fix it? How do you know? And this has come up recently in my life in multiple ways. So, right, There's been several situations, which I'm sure I will talk about more in depth than the discussion we're going to have, where my instinct has been to cut my losses and bolt because I'm a runner by nature. Actually, I'm a runner by nurture. Something I realized. That's why you listen to the pod for ladies and gentlemen.

Which is, it's not a biological impulse to run it as a nurtured impulse. And that makes all the difference. But anyway, several of these situations I have over the last. two years, tried a new approach, which is stay and make an effort to change the conditions. And things have got much better. In fact, I wouldn't be where I was with my career. I wouldn't be where I was with some of my friendships. I wouldn't be where I was with some of the relationships I have if I had not stayed in some of these things to see them out. And that doesn't necessarily mean that they ended in, you know, I'm thinking of like a dalliance I had with someone

that I stuck around for longer than maybe initially wanted to, just to see where I would go and that taught me a lot. And that helped me grow in so many different ways. So now I'm wondering, how can I trust my gut on this? If my gut is always telling me to take what for me is the easy way out, which is leave. So in contrast, however, I've got friends who are terrible, like all-time bad at leaving an unhealthy situation. So I want to discuss in this iterant commitment phobic era, how do you know when to stay and how do you know when to leave? Where do you want to go first?

This is such a good one because when I was thinking about this, I am one of nature's stayers. So there is a distinction because I actually have been very good at ending relationships. and I'm also really good at doing house clear outs. I'm not sentimental with hanging on to stuff. Oh, I need you to help me with my clothes. Oh yeah, I just sweep with my arm and just shove it on to bin bags and donate it. Like, not sentimental. So aside from relationships, which I've been, I think, quite good at ending and also clearing shit out my house,

I am about staying and building the thing. I've been in my job with Navarra for coming up to 11 years this year. That's a long-ass time. I've only ever lived in London. Many of my friends are people who I've been friends with since I was a teenager. So I'm still best friends with the person that was best friends with when I was 11. And I'm surrounded by people that I met at school or like literally first year of uni. And I sort of view life as rather than sort of big swerves and decisions, I sort of see it like a sedimentary rock where I'd like through years of things building up, you get this sort of pattern and you get this sort of structure.

And I actually think that something I've been really bad at is making my work. wish to no longer be doing something or part of a dynamic. I've been really bad at articulating that in a way which I think creates confusion for other people because my way of getting out of something, particularly with like other friendships or sort of social situations that I'm not really feeling, is to just sort of stay still until it moves away from me, which is very passive. And so I think that there are things that I can contribute to this discussion in terms of how do you know when it's time to end a relationship.

But I kind of feel like I've talked about that quite a bit. And I think there are things that I can contribute in terms of when you're in the trenches of a relationship and you are making that decision to stay, how do you actually do the work of making it a structure worth staying in? But in terms of being active and agented. in changing other aspects of your life, that's not me. Have you ever ended a friendship? No.

I have let friendships fizzle out. I've never ended one. I wonder if that counts though, because I feel like there's friendships that, as a lever, there's friendships that I absolutely have let fizzle out. And then those people have come back to haunt me and tell me how much that hurt them. Yeah, but it's not the same.

Because I would say this is the difference. Leaving, I would say it's active and agentic, whereas letting something fizzle out is inherently passive. I think it is and it isn't, because when you just stop replying to someone or you just say, to be fair, there's like a couple of situations where I've been like, this isn't healthy for us. I want to step back.

I've never said that. Never said that in a friendship. There's friendships that I've literally physically left. I don't have any friends as well from my youth. And I think that says a lot about me. I have people that I'm friendly with and on good terms with, but there's no one that if I went back home, I would be getting a coffee with. Someone who lives on the next street,

who I see, like, multiple times a week, we were best friends when I was 16. And, like, we've made a choice to, like, put down roots right next to each other. Are there any friendships that you think you should have ended that you still have? No, because, again, like, what my special move was, was was to sort of like stay stock still and like become really passive. And I don't think that that's a

good thing. I mean, I think there are elements of it which maybe reflect certain values or principles that I hold, which is that friendships should be a bit more lightly held than relationships and should occupy spaces of kind of like ambiguity and unspokenness a bit just because that's that's the sort of difference in terms of. how lightly or not it's treading on you. But it is a way of expressing my will. It's just so. It's kind of, it's pussy old behaviour.

It's pussy old behaviour. I mean, I'm kind of, I kind of think that counts, sorry. I kind of think like letting something fizzle out is not an active choice to maintain a friendship and therefore you are ending it. So that is, that is a leaving. It's a more, yes, it's a more passive way of leaving. but to maintain these things to stay, like the ones that I'm talking about,

the examples I'm talking about. For example, my job. I love my job. But when I started my job, I was in a role that didn't really suit me as much. And was very stressful because I was having to do everything. And I spoke to my boss after a few months of this, and I was like, I can't continue at this pace.

And I will just have to leave. I'm sorry, I'm handing my notice. And he was like, no, please don't. let's try some changes. Tried some changes. I was still like, this is not, it's not the right role for me. So I got given a different one that really suited me.

And then because of that, got promoted again. Like when was able to like do all these things. And then now in a position that really seems to work for me. Because I stayed and because I didn't actually go. When I could, when in the past I have just left. So if we take Navarra, I just left Navarra. because certain things were not working and I didn't see a way that they would

actually work for me and I didn't see a place for me in the organisation and rather than like there's probably a parallel world where I could have stuck around and tried to wait for that to work itself out but I didn't with previous jobs as well like I think three years

is the longest I've ever stayed in a job so there's a you know I don't know what would happen if I'd stayed in some of those roles or what I'd have been able to do but as soon as I felt there was a seat on my development or what I could offer, I left. Whereas in this role, I was a bit like, let's just see what happens when things move around

and where I could go. And because of that, I've been able to develop way more than I have before because I've got a steady base instead of starting from scratch again. And that's just career. Like, I'll go into friendships in a minute, but I've never done the sticking around thing. And I've always just thought the answer to something

when it's not working is like, well, that's over, let's go. I mean, the thing is, is that sometimes that is the answer. And I also, you know, it's something which has been very intuitive to me in romantic relationships. Like, there is one relationship where I go, I was holding onto this thing for way too long and I shouldn't have stuck around. Pretty much every other one, I'm like, called it at the right time. you know made made the right decision left you know was able to behave in a way which was agentic and active um and i guess one of the things i'm interested in is because you've been active in being like okay i'm going to leave this job or like i'm going to leave the city or i'm

going to go here i'm going to do this thing is that do you think that you think that you think that you have a more or less stable sense of self and sense of your ability and your own power than if maybe you'd sort of stuck around a bit and waited for things to change. Well this is the question right because we're talking about right decisions when I think we should just be talking about alternative decisions. So I will always think that where I am right now is probably good for me because that's where I am right now. But also you've proven to yourself that you'll leave that place if it's not right.

Yeah. And things work out for me because of several different factors like my class position, the particular intersection I inhabit at the moment. Like I'm very lucky to have been born at this time as this person, whereas previously I don't think that would have been a sentence. That would have been coming out of mouth of a person like me. Yeah, I mean, I was going to be like, Like, you know, you would have been the living embodiment of the sin of race mixing.

Yeah, exactly. And now I'm on JD sports posters. So it's, yeah, it's a funny time to exist. And because things, you know, things seem really good, like I'm very lucky. And I made those decisions. And even when they didn't work out, they worked out. So going to Glasgow, for example, that was quite a. an impulsive decision. And then I got there and it led to the end of a very long, important

friendship. It led to me coming home after six months. Yeah, there was a lot of spin-outs that I had to completely reassess who I was as a person, the choices I was making, like, what I wanted in life, or like what I've won from one to the next five years, which is more important. I had to take a I went back to therapy as a result, you know, but from that, I got a really good job that I love, that I found really interesting, that I have lots of room to grow in as well. I have written nearly a whole book. I, you know, I strengthened other friendships as a result. And I met someone. So all of those things would not have happened if I hadn't have gone and come back. And now I get to travel all over the country as a regular part of my job. And I've also got the knowledge that I've said this to

like various people on my boss. Like I will live anywhere for six months now. You want to send me somewhere? I'll go there for six months. Six months is my limit. But for that six months, I know I can do it now. And I'd actually be happy to do that so long as I know that eventually I'm coming back home to London. Um, so it's a sense. given me all that, but if I'd stuck around longer, maybe I would have got even more out of it. I don't know because I didn't do that. So do you see, like, the choices, and also if I stuck around longer in the situation I was with, maybe I could have found a way to mend that friendship, but because I just up and left, I literally just up and left, and that was a huge factor in it

because the friendship was breaking down. I was like, I need to get out of her. I need to get out of her. I was just like, fled. and with all your stuff in a bindle like Dick Whittington it was it was a small van but yeah basically overnight just like fucked off and that is something that sits for me because that's a complete like raw open wound I don't know if it is for them but it definitely was for me that I've just had to like work through and work through and work through

and there was no there's been no closure because where where even go from there? I think as someone who has often done a lot of staying, I also think there's no closure. Like I think that we have completely unrealistic expectations of closure. And the thing is, is that life is often just a lot of open loops. And some of those loops can become dormant. Like some of them go extinct and some of them are active volcanoes.

Sorry, that's a terrible mixing of metaphors. But do you know what I mean? It's like, you know, we have a desire to close those. loops and it's great when you can. But I think in the last show I was talking about recurring dreams, recurring dreams of exes. And I think that shows that even though those relationships were settled, right, like we broke up, we had the sense-making conversation of why we broke up and there were good break-ups. There's still something in my mind, which is like faintly open about them and, you know, wearing away in my unconscious.

So I kind of think that whether you're a stayer or a lever, a sticker or a twister, the expectations we have of closure are kind of mythic. Like it could be sort of a horizon that you go for and I think that that encourages like good and clear communication, taking responsibility for your own desires, treating other people like a human being who deserves full,

and candid explanations, but that's not the same as getting closure. I mean, so many of the dilemmas we get will be like, oh, someone broke up with me and they told me exactly why,

but like, should I stay, like hanging around? It's because like, you know, even though that is as clear and as finite as it gets, it didn't close the emotional loop. So I kind of think that the pursuit of closure is,

is noble, but not possible. I think the second thing is like, you know, what compels someone to stay and what compels people to leave. I mean, obviously, I get a huge sense of professional fulfillment from my job, but my relationship to Navarra is not a job because when I first started, I wasn't getting paid and neither was anybody else. So there was this huge sense of political commitment.

And the bonds that we had to forge to keep us there, because money wasn't, because we couldn't pay ourselves, became hugely important. And so, like, you know, I get very corny at, like, the meetings that we have, like the six of us who are directors, like kind of every meeting, I'll be like, I'm here for life. You are my family and I love you all. And they're like, okay, but can we look at the cash flow document? And I'm like, but I love you.

Like, you know, there is a commitment there, which is political and like kind of familial. And it is about a sense of belonging. And I think that's the thing is that I have a really strong sense of belonging. I think stronger than a lot of people that I know. I feel so much like I belong in the place where I work. And again, that's because of the sort of political affinity and the understanding that's developed amongst each other for having known each other for so long.

You know, I always joke that like Aaron Bastani has a PhD in politics, and I have a PhD in Aaron Bastani. like that comes from having been close friends for 15 years right like you get a sense of who a person is and how they work um but also I feel so rooted in my community like I live in Tottenham I used to live here as a kid my grandma lived um I'm literally two roads away from where my grandma lived one road away from where my auntie lived like three roads away from where my mom got her first house with my dad and I'm lucky enough to be surrounded by people who've also made the choice to live here. Like, so I don't see, I think I see problems in a particular way, which is I don't necessarily

see problems as resolvable in a moment, or like problems as resolvable in a moment of decisiveness. I sort of see them as problems which can be like managed in and out of states of getting better and worse. when you're staying because there's also like two sides of this right like sometimes I see staying as assisting development for example

staying in some of these romantic entanglements I've had recently have really helped me even if they have eventually ended because they've helped me because I've been in the state of mind where I can actually observe my behaviour and my reactions

and see what I'm doing doing. Again, friendships, long-term friendships I have, staying in those and not ducking out even at like real crunch points has further helped me develop as a human being. But then sometimes in jobs, if I stay past this point that I feel like I'm actually able to like develop within the company, that becomes detrimental because there's only so far, like, I remember one job I had where it was really amazing but like I sort of like reached the pinnacle of what I could do in that place and no one else could help me get to the next level of skill um and so I knew I

had to leave and when I get that feeling it's like is there a way to sort of you can't you can't go anymore vertical but is there a way to develop even further like being someone like Navarra for 11 years like do you feel like you're able to still develop? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. 100%. And like I feel that there's so much room for my role to develop because the organisation is still developing. And I think that this is where politics really comes into it,

which is my relationship with Navarra is a political relationship. So it's like being the member of a party. And like when you become a member of the Chinese Communist Party, right? Or you start working for it, become a party apparactic in any way. You have to take a pledge and it's a pledge of lifelong commitment. Now, I didn't make a pledge for Navarra, but like I may as well have. And it's a pledge which is to say, this is the political institution that I want to build, right? Like it participates in politics through the means of journalism, right? And through the means of content creation. That's how I view it. And I've

taken a political pledge to it. So when I think about development, in a slightly different way. I don't think about it is I need to develop for my own personal fulfillment, though of course I feel intensely personally fulfilled. It's I need to develop so I can be better for this organisation. Like, I'm a cog in this machine and I need to be the best possible fucking cog that I can be for this machine to work well because it's doing something that I believe in. And I think that where I ever to leave, like I literally can't in my head to think of a situation

where that would happen. I think it would only either be because I've profoundly changed as a person, right? So something in me that I can't even anticipate or describe is really, really changed, or because there is some other way to fulfill the historic mission of doing communism that I think is better, right, or that I'm better suited to. And again, I can't really picture what that's going to be. And so I think that this is one of the things about staying or going, right, is that instinctively I'm thinking about this not in terms of staying. I'm thinking about this as forms of

commitment and what do you commit yourself to and recommit yourself to and what don't you? Is that I also don't see, you know, I'm not an idiot, right? I'm not like, and communism is going to happen tomorrow in Great Britain. Like I see this as like a movement which included millions and millions of nameless people, like, you know, people who died for the cause and you'll never know who they were, nameless and forgotten, and that it might not be our generation. But so, like, you're just sort of trying to also, like,

create the ground for the next generation to do it. Like, there's such a narcissism in people thinking, like, you know, you are going to create the moment. Like, the best advice I ever got was actually from Aaron, which is I was really upset about a boy when I was 18, and he was like, stop crying, you're an instrument of history and it's time you started behaving like it.

I was really, such good advice. And I was like, yeah, I'm an instrument of fucking history, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I will do the thing. You're the instrument, but you might not necessarily be the finished melody. I might not be the finished melody. Going on, like, continue on this. Okay, so like, I've got friends

who are fucking terrible, like, you're, you know, you stick around you're like, it works out. There's, there's reasons you've stuck around. I've got friends who are fucking terrible at leaving and it doesn't work out like they will wait to be fired or dumped even when they are miserable so I had a friend who was in a job like ruined their mental health ruined their sense of self there were other things going on but like those but that was the main factor they like broke down about it but they would not leave and we were like you've got to like take a break get signed off you've got to leave

they wouldn't do it. Instead, they got fired. They waited till they got fired. And that then rocked them even further because it was like, okay, so this thing that I wanted so much to work out that I couldn't walk away from, even though I knew it was ruining me

and it wasn't aligned with like my values or what I wanted and I wasn't being treated in a good way, now I've waited to be rejected by it, which has further sent me for a loop. And I think this is the same thing with like some relationships I've seen friends get into where it's like they know that it's degrading them and they're not having a good time but they won't end it.

They have to wait to be rejected. So they're not the ones making a decision because then it would be a responsibility they don't want to hold in case it's like the wrong decision. And I wonder how you get the bravery in those situations to do something where you do have to leave. I can definitely think of situations where I've done that. And I can also think of friends who do that habitually. And that's the thing is that for me, being in a relationship that went that way once was enough for me. I was like, never e fucking again.

Like, never. But I've got friends who are habitually that way. And that's because the thing that's going to stop you is like a degree of insight into why. and like the first lies you tell yourself every day are to yourself in front of the mirror like people bullshit themselves to such an extent and the biggest bullshitters I know are actually the gluttons for punishment

because they tell themselves stories about why they have to stay or like why they're so needed or why they can't or how they're not actually doing anything all the while they're sort of like doing this like weird crab walk away or they're staying stock still when, you know,

everyone else is saying get out the burning building. And so the people who are like gluttons for punishment in my experience are often the people with the least developed sense of why. Why is they're doing something? Because, you know, they're doing this sort of like mad dance to like stay either like in a burning building or to stay in the orbit of something that's fucked. I mean like that's the other thing is that like saying in the orbit of something that's really fucked sometimes takes a lot of work. Like you're expending so much energy to cling on to like chase this person who isn't loving you or to like, you know, pursue promotion in a job that's never going to never going to never going to give it to you.

So I think that's the thing is that like the defining feature for me, for those gluttons for punishment is why. And they can, and those that people are like really bad at answering that why. Like, why are you doing this? So often they'll say, I'm not doing it. Yeah. And it's really difficult because they won't take advice.

And often they won't like a tiny bit of support, but they just expect you to watch while they're having a horrendous time and sit back and be like, I'm handling it, I'm handling it. You're not handling it, though. You're not handling it. And it's very distressing. And then in those situations, I'm like, what if I just leave? I can't do this anymore. I have to leave. Taxi! Which is so selfish. I don't leave, but it is very difficult watching someone stay mired in a situation that is clearly degrading their well-being. I don't know what you do in those.

cases because you can't do anything for all of them. You cannot make a horse drink. You can only lead it to the water. Do you know what I mean? Like I think that there are some things which are cliches because they're true, right? Like you don't have power to overcome someone else's compulsions for them. Like you can't, you can't do that. They will learn it on their own time and their own schedule.

like the switch will flick at some point maybe but but that's not something that's within your control and I know this because this is one of the things that mean my partner had to really learn about each other is sometimes you dig your heels in the hardest when you feel that someone's trying to pull you out yeah why I don't know I think people are just kind of like that it's really exhausting yeah it is but like I know that because I've been that exhausting person in like all sorts of ways. And again, because of my tendency towards what can only be described as obstinate passivity, right?

That's sort of my superpower, like the heels dig in like crazy. And that's my way of exerting my will whenever I'm in a sort of adversarial situation. And I think this comes to the question of like, not when to stay, but how to stay. What does staying look like? How do you actually repair something from within? because it is possible.

I mean, you know, I think that a defining point of a relationship in so many ways is the first time you ever really consider breaking up and what follows. Because I remember this happening, I don't know, I guess it was four years ago, something like that. And it was the point where me and my partner felt like an intractable situation had really, really degraded. And I said, I think I'm going to leave. I said those words. And it was horrible. Like it's so horrible to like remember how his face looked at that point and how I felt.

And it was the first time either of us really confront. wanted that of like being without each other. And I climbed down pretty quickly because I said it thinking that that was the solution because I'd always been the one to end things or often been the one to end things before. And I was like, well, this fucking degraded. Like someone's got to pull the trigger. I guess it's going to be me. And I did it. And then I was like, wrong decision. Wrong decision. But that was really a before and after. before that point, both of us had an understanding of our relationship, which I think was that bit less mature. And after that point, it really developed into something different. So it changed

things because we looked at the relationship as something that either one of us can step out of at any time, which means we're here because we want to be. And it means we're here because we're committed to being here. No one's forcing us to stay. There is no external force holding us together. We can leave at any time. And that rather than introducing precarity, introduced a sense of seriousness about like, no, we're here because we choose to be. So, no blaming the other person, you know, no treating yourself like you're the victim, like you're here because you want to be. Both of us are here because we want to be. Second thing was that we began and it took a lot of time

to move from a tug of war model of negotiating conflict and the way the tug of war worked was that he would experience very big powerful emotions and I would do the heel dig special to both of us like moving towards a little bit more of a midline me being more communicative

him having more insight into his own patterns and being like I can feel a storm is coming rather than like the storm is here that was super helpful but also we started seeing the relationship as something which existed outside of us so the relationship wasn't how do I feel about it it's like an altar or like a shrine

that you're constantly having to make offerings and gifts to and both of you have to do it and both of you have to keep it nice like I think it helped us take some ego out of it like in a healthy way and then the third thing is that

we talked about this with Jordan Stevens right the honeymoon phase, power struggle, you know, passionate friendship, whatever it is that comes afterwards, was we felt like survivors of a disaster together. You know, our plane crashed on the mountain, but we fucking lived, was like there was a feeling of renewal, like a real sense of renewal of like, oh, he'd looked this catastrophe right in the eye, like could have taken us out, but it didn't. And it was. it was an experience of crisis, which was ultimately really, really strengthening.

And so I think that's the thing is that thinking about the question of how to stay is like a crisis should be renewing, shouldn't be cyclical. Yes, that's something I had to learn in my last week. Also on that, the threat of leaving, you actually have to be prepared to leave. This is the one thing I've been proud of when I've left.

Like, I leave and I don't go back. And I think that's really important. because otherwise you are just getting into a cyclical thing and you're using it as you've said before as a tool to manipulate. It's a tactic. It's a tactic. It's a tactic. And it was really funny because I remember when I, my ex, one of my exes and I had the conversation about breaking up. And all through that relationship, I had threatened to leave.

Every time there was a big problem I threatened to leave. I just like, we should just end this. we should have ended it a lot earlier, but I kept using it constantly from the get-go. Because as soon as there was conflict, I didn't know how to handle conflicts, so I was just like, okay, I've just got to leave. Just got to leave. You hate me, so I'm going to leave. And then finally, we had a big summit where we just were like, we had so many of these crises. And it was cyclical, cyclical. We had on a massive break. And then we got back together.

And then finally I knew the end had come. And I was like, okay, we have to break up. I was really serious and he took it too. And afterwards he was like, oh, I couldn't leave before because it would upset you too much. It was like, brother, we're miserable. Do you not think we're already upset? Like, first of all, I think that's bollocks.

But secondly, I was like, do you not already think we're upset? Like, do you think there was obviously something within the cycles that was really hitting some specific pressure points of both of us that meant we were kind of like addicted to the cycles of pain but but I was like what do you mean you couldn't leave because it would be too painful for me I'm crying every day I'm saying stuff like I hate you when I'm drunk this is not this is not the situation you want to be in leave god damn it leave and then on the flip side I was thinking about someone I know who flipped out recently, not recently actually a while ago, on someone they were dating because they had a panic

because they were just like, this is going to go wrong, I've just got to end it. And they convinced themselves of loads of things and just ended it. And then they were like, tried to get it back. And obviously that didn't work. But sometimes when your brain is telling you to leave, you shouldn't leave. Just add another, just to add another one into the works. If you're going to leave, you have to really, really mean it. Well, I think, I think that I look back on that situation is like intensely painful and I don't want to repeat it and the words I think I'm going to leave I've never left my mouth since or at least only ever ingest like you know and you know when it doesn't really tell another call the divorce lawyer but like they've never left my mouth again because it was

such a it's really weighty it has to mean something it was like confronting that reality like really confronting it and not stepping away from it we were afraid, but because it was like this really stark thing of like, that's not going to make us happier. Like, that is not going to make us happier. Yeah. Okay. What's the verdict? Leave or stay? Yeah. Little of column A, little of column B. Yeah. I think overall, though, I think staying is probably best in a lot of situations. I don't know. It's worked for me so far, but like, yeah. Yeah. It might, you know, might really start working. Like, Tottenham might be the spot where the nuke falls.

I'd be okay with that. So long as it's not Peckham. No, the nuke falls in Toronto, we're all fucked. Yeah, you're all fucked. Anywhere in London, we're all fucked. Like, I don't... Face the white light, go quickly. Yeah, I'd absolutely, like, immediately.

Again, I had this discussion of the day in the apocalypse what's happening. In the zombie apocalypse, what's happening. Kill me. Kill me. Straight away. Just... With the hasteness.

Yeah, I don't want to survive. I want to leave. I want to leave. I want to leave. Okay, cool. Right. Dilemmas time. This is our regular segment.

I'm in big trouble. And if you are in big trouble, email us at if I speak at navaramedia.com. That's if I speak at navaramedia.com. I'm going to read this one so Moyer can go first with the advice. Hi, Ashen Moyer. I've been told off a few times by different friends for being judgmental about their use of AI to perform basic creative tasks.

Emphasis here is on the word creative, as I don't really take issue when people use it for an arbitrary task that requires zero thought. I've never been explicitly nasty about it, but when someone admits to using AI to come up with a name for a pet or a fun activity or even writer's speech,

I have definitely made light-hearted but despairing remarks which have understandably led me to this conviction. The truth is, I am being judgmental because it drives me nuts. My dilemma is that, my friends are clearly finding my judgment insufferable. No one likes being around a contrarian bore for obvious reasons. I'm not sure I am quite willing to completely relent the fact that it has become so acceptable to offset creative thinking to machines. I care less about what this does

for the machines than I care about what it will do to us. I work in education and every day I bear harrowing witness to the rapid decline in literacy among the youth. If an adult can't come up with a name for their cat without a machine, God help the kids. Usually when I do pipe up, I met with a rebuttal such as life is hard enough as it is and no, no, I'm using it creatively, to which I most often just let it go. I would like to know your opinions on this. Do we need to suck it up and learn to live and let live or should I stick to my guns on this one but take a different approach? I have a friend who does exactly this. I have a mate who every time we talk about using chatty-b-tie, goes on a big rant about chat to EBT

and how we can't use it and how it's terrible. And they are also a teacher. And I've talked to lots of teachers who are particularly, like, concerned because obviously they're bringing the entire weight of the classroom and the effects of artificial intelligence on learning. Like, soon we will be split into a tiered society

where, or not that we already aren't, but it will be drawn along the lines of who can think for themselves or who can do curriculum, critical thinking without the assistance of a machine. And that's going to be a class-based thing as well. So that will fall along class lines. So the thing is,

these people know you're right. And that's why they're judged. And that's why they hate it. Like when my friend does it, we know she's right. But it's not going to change things that much. You might change your habits privately, but when your friend nags at you, it's long.

Because you do feel judged, because you are being judged. And I think sometimes if you say, kind of get that out loud, being like, this feels judgmental because I am judging you, but also that doesn't mean you're a bad person. This is just something I really feel strongly about. The question is like, which friends are you doing this to and how often? Because when they've heard the message once or twice, it's gone in. You don't need to do it all the time, you know?

There are ways to communicate. communicate with people about difficult topics, which is you raise it the first couple of times. By then it's gone in. After that, just don't engage with it. Be like, hey, you know how I feel about this. I'm not going to chat about this anymore. Let's move on. Otherwise, you will get stuck in this loop where you're the nag and they're the scolded child. You're in teacher mode and they're being scolded. And that is not a healthy dynamic for anyone, whether it's about AI or something else. So you have to think more about how would you want that message to be received if it was you on the receiving end and what actually gets through to you. And bring a bit of levity into it as

well. My friends call me the alcohol police because of like the way I feel about booze and they know how I feel about booze. So I've stopped talking about it in the same way to them. And I don't like, obviously I don't police their drinks, but it's like a funny joke and I'm like, need nor, need or alcohol police, like if I see a lush around, you know? Like,

it's funny. It's funny. It's funny. It's funny. Like, I, it's fucking like a dark thing that I have. And it's a bit of an obsession

because of my dealings with alcoholics. But also, it's fucking funny that that is something that I do. And you have to be prepared to laugh at it and also not just repeat it all the time. Um, with people you care about. Because I tell you,

they know already. They've heard. It's gone in. I think that's really good advice So I think the only thing that I'm going to double down on Is the importance of levity So It comes back to this thing of like being able to laugh at yourself

And laugh at your own absurdity Without letting go of what principles are really important to you So your friends know that you fucking hate AI Like at some point you're not even going to have to say it Right? You can just bob your eyebrow euphemistically and they'll know exactly what it is you're saying and I think that that takes the rejection out of judgment because we all making judgments all the time and we all discern

between that which is good and that which is bad it's not necessarily judgment that people are sensitive to I think it's the implications of forms of rejection so you can make it very clear that there is no rejection that you know you're all committed to each other with all of your glorious foibles and flaws and that it's not you trying to establish a distance by introducing judgment of the use of AI for cats' names. I also think you shouldn't. Don't use AI for names.

I don't know how you'd even do that. You could just Google names. Yeah, exactly. I mean, also like a name, a name for a pet should have come from you. Hmm. It's like naming a baby. Would you use chat GPT for a baby?

I'm sure people have. Oh. And we've seen worst names come out of people's heads. But at least they come from their heads, I guess. But yeah, like naming a cat, come on. Obviously, I'm going to call a cat Rufus if I get a cat. Why Rufus? There is a cat called Rufus in the rescuers.

It's always start with me. And my grandma's nickname, weirdly, was Rufus. That's what you call a nickname. Because her name was Rufth. It's just a very cat name, isn't it? It's like, Rufus. Rufus is asleep right now. Rufus, you big lard ass.

Yeah, Rufus is a great name. Yeah. So when I get a cat, in like 10 million years, because I currently live in a walk-up two-bed flat, which means that I can't get a cat. My first cat was called Trouble. Did you name the cat?

I don't think so. I think that this was the name either my mom and my aunt gave him. I can't remember. And he was a tabby cat with like white tuxedo shirt and white little socks. And he was the neighborhood bad man. But he was really affectionate. So he'd come in with his like raggy ears and like a bit of blood coming down his port, you know. And then he'd like curl up with you. He'd be like, don't ask me what I do for a living. Yeah, like, no questions, doll. Yeah, no questions, dog. That's so funny, we named our first cats as well. So they were called, this is what the seven-year-old, me and my sister came up with, Sweetie and Pie. Oh, so dumb and so cute. So fucking dumb.

So dumb. Oh, great cats. That's the kind of thing which, like, Indian families, like, nickname their girls. Like, that's the thing is that, like, you'll have, like, an Indian name and then, like, a Western name, which is often, like, the most insipidious. you've ever heard in your life. So like you meet so many Indians who are like, my name's Pinky at home. And I'm like, why?

There's literally this TikTok creator called Twinkle. He's the most beautiful South Asian girl you've ever seen your life. Her name is Twinkle. And I was like, oh, such an unsurious people. Yeah. Such an unserious people. In China, their Western name is always Kevin. Oh, what an indictment.

Oh, my God. That is a heavy burn to bed. Not Kevin. No, but I think that Kevin is better than Twinkle. I'd rather be a Kevin than a twinkle. There's some names I just can't say in bed and Kevin is one of them. So is Keith.

Kay names are quite a no for me. Keith. There's like certain names that you're like if I was confronted with that name. Oh, Keith. Yeah, like I can't say that in bed. Sorry to any Keith's out there. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Right. There's someone who likes you. Okay, right. Sure, wrap this up. Yeah, this has been, if I speak, remember to get your tickets for crossed wires. What else are we doing? buy some merch from us if you want

send in your ask me anything so if I speak at Navrrr Media.com I think that's all the admin. Who've you been? I've been If I Keith and I've been Big Kev. Bye! Bye!

Kevin and Perry go large.