Imaginary Worlds - A Nation Dreams to Survive

Episode Date: February 16, 2023

As we near the one year anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, I check in with the Ukrainian writers I interviewed for my 2022 episode A Nation Dreams of Itself. Maria Galina tells me about the difficulties of trying to create during wartime. Svitlana Taratorina and Volodymyr Arenev talk about why writing isn’t just a form of therapy or escapism, but it’s also a patriotic duty to keep Ukrainian culture alive in a war that’s also being fought in libraries, bookstores and publishing houses. Borys Sydiuk talks about why science fiction is making a comeback over fantasy during the war. And I talk with Max Kidruk, the new breakout star in the Ukrainian sci-fi scene. You can watch Svitlana’s YouTube channel Fantastic Talks at: https://www.youtube.com/@fanttalks Ukrainian Red Cross: https://donate.redcrossredcrescent.org/ua/donate/~my-donation?_cv=1 Mercy Corps: https://www.mercycorps.org/donate/crisis-ukraine-give-now International Medical Corps: https://give.internationalmedicalcorps.org/page/99837/donate/1?ea.tracking.id=DP~UA22~DPHHU2202 Save the Children: https://support.savethechildren.org/site/Donation2?df_id=5751&mfc_pref=T&5751.donation=form1 This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp and Bombas. Our ad partner is Multitude. If you’re interested in advertising on Imaginary Worlds, you can contact them here or email [e-mail]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A special message from your family jewels brought to you by Old Spice Total Body. Hey, it stinks down here. Why do armpits get all of the attention? We're down here all day with no odor protection. Wait, what's that? Mmm, vanilla and shea. That's Old Spice Total Body deodorant. 24-7 freshness from pits to privates with daily use. It's so gentle. We've never smelled so good. Shop Old Spice Total Body Deodorant now.

This episode is brought to you by Secret. Secret deodorant gives you 72 hours of clinically proven odor protection free of aluminum, parabens, dyes, talc, and baking soda. It's made with pH balancing minerals and crafted with skin conditioning oils. You're listening to Imaginary Worlds, a show about how we create them and why we suspend our disbelief. I'm Eric Molenski. We are coming up on the one-year anniversary of the war in Ukraine.

And shortly after the war started last year, I did an episode called A Nation Dreams of Itself, where I spoke with Ukrainian sci-fi and fantasy writers. During the course of the war, I've continued to check up on them through social media, but I wanted to talk with them to see how they're doing. I was curious if they've been able to write this year, and how does living through a war affect their creativity? And what kind of stories are they telling? If you didn't hear the episode from last year, here's a quick historical recap. When Ukraine was behind the Iron Curtain, most books were published in Russian,

and the Soviet publishers preferred science fiction over fantasy. After the Cold War ended, publishers in Ukraine kept publishing books in Russian because a lot of Ukrainians speak Russian, and they could sell those books to Russian speakers throughout the former Soviet Union. But as Ukraine started to drift away from Russia politically, many Ukrainian writers wanted their books to be published in Ukrainian, and they were using fantasy and folklore to explore their sense of national identity. That trend picked up a lot of momentum in 2014, after Russia took Crimea. Meanwhile in Russia, science fiction started to become more nationalistic and militaristic. And the war between Russia and Ukraine started to play out in imaginary spaces before it bled into real life.

Now there are Russian and Ukrainian writers on the front lines. And when the invasion began, the authors that I talked with said a lot of Ukrainians were using Lord of the Rings as a metaphor. They cast the Russians as invading orcs. And weirdly enough, Putin has gotten in on the act. Back in December, Putin created nine golden rings. He gave them to eight leaders in Russia's sphere of influence and kept the ninth ring for himself, which is literally what the evil wizard Sorin did in Lord of the Rings. Every article I read about this ceremony noted that this was clearly a Tolkien reference. It's mental disease, I think, because I truly couldn't believe in this,

but I read and I found this news, and yes, it's true. That is the fiction writer Svitlana Taratorina. The last time we heard from her, she was fleeing to the countryside. Eventually, she came back to Kiev because the city is so heavily protected. She says people are still living in a constant state of fear, but everyday life goes on. No matter what, we have even cultural events and book presentation and new bookstores.

All books, all new books, it's about life and thinking about future. So you've been writing this year, right? Yes. Yes. Actually, I write and it was a little bit not expected even for me because the beginning of the previous year was very awful full of scared and terror i completely editing and writing three short story for example and also i had So I had finished editing my new novel.

And now I am looking forward for this novel to be printed. And I have started working for one of the biggest publishing houses in Ukraine this autumn. Wait, hold on. You're working for a publishing house? What are you doing for the publishing house? Yeah, I'm working as a head of PR department. I try to tell about Ukrainian new books in Ukrainian market. So the publishing industry is able to continue in Ukraine. It sounds like that's been almost unaffected. And you're saying even new bookstores are opening? Yes, yes. And it's amazing, actually. My publishing house, we have a lot of problems because printing facilities are located in Kharkiv region, which is in the east part of Ukraine and is located very close to the Russian Ukrainian border.

They have everyday bombing and this leads to broken logistics, power supply and et cetera, but they still working. In this year, we're planning to manage to publish 300 new book titles. Anthony Acciavatti 05.00 Her new book, House of Salt, will be published this year as well. It's a science fiction story set in Crimea, where she was born. The story takes place in the future. And she changed the ending because the war has given her hope.

When I started this novel, I actually did not believe that Crimea could be returned to Ukraine in the near future. battles and its liberation, I have strong belief that Crimea will be returned. And it will be not just the mark of the end of the war, but a true millstone of Ukrainians' victory. And that is why I changed the finale of this novel. Now, last year, I interviewed Svetlana with her friend, Voldemir Arenev. Once again, he joined us on the call. Voldemir hasn't written as much this year because he got a job. He's working for a game developer in Ukraine.

And we are working hard with the lore of our world, with campaign script and so on and so on. So I have just two weekend days for writing my books. But I'm writing. It's my work, it's my job. I mean, you know, if you are, for example, a soldier, you are fighting. If you are a medicine worker, you are working and heals people. And if you are a writer, you are writing because it's your job. Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it.

What is this game that you're working on? Is it like a tabletop game with dice and a board? And what kind of world does it take place in? It's a mobile game. game that you're working on? Is it like a tabletop game with dice and a board? What kind of world does it take place in? It's a mobile game. I couldn't tell in this moment, but I could tell we put there some Ukrainian stuff, I mean, some historical and mythological references. And in this moment, sorry, it's all I could tell. I signaled papers and couldn't tell more. Yes, even in wartime,

entertainment companies make you sign NDAs. But for a lot of writers, it's been hard to find that creative spark with everything going on. I got back in touch with Maria Galina, and she hasn't been able to write fiction since the war began. It is the problem because it is very difficult

to concentrate, I think. Not because of air raid and not because of cold. I think that people live in this condition without electricity for centuries. But the problem is that you have constantly to check up news. And it is very difficult to concentrate after this. So I think that I write something like a diary. And that is all. And when she reads the news, the news is so surreal. She feels like fiction just can't compete.

So she reads nonfiction, with one exception. Maybe you will laugh at me now, Eric, but I like to read Agatha Christie. Oh, Agatha Christie? Yes, I can read it. Because the world of Agatha Christie is very order-like. I mean that there is some kind of order, even if there are crimes, it is also punishment. And it is very same.

I'm interested, like you, I'm interested who reads what. And so a lot of people say to me that they can read only books that they read before. No new books. Only the books they read before. Voldemir also finds it challenging to focus. He's constantly checking the news from official sources and social media. tracking the news from official sources and social media. Every day when you open Facebook,

you could read somebody died who you knew very well. Some of my students died, for example, and so on. I asked Voldemir and Svetlana, what motivates them to keep writing in this environment? Do they want to inspire people or warn them? Is writing fiction a form of escapism or therapy? It's not only one motivation. I mean, of course, on some levels it could be therapy, but I always thinking about it should be not just therapy

for me if it's therapy just for me i could write it and then i will not give it to other readers because when i write in something i'm writing for somebody and it's always dialogue it's always dialogue. It's always trying to give some messages, some ideas, some stories for somebody. I understand many people have so be again in our world. So we need to write about it because we need to tell other people how terrible all these things are. And storytelling gives us tools to do it better. Here's Svetlana. Yes, I agree with Volodymyr. It's not a therapy, but it's some kind of, in some way,

writing helps me stay focused and distracted from the world. Because, yes, I escape in my text. Even if we talk about fantasy, it's some kind of mix. On the one hand, I create a new world when I can live and when I can live without my reality but in other hand I think about some historical parallels when I write about alternative history alternative future or some kind of alternative past writing is very important part of the life. And I think much more important than about previous years. Why is it, why is writing more important than ever now? Because, you know, it's some kind of dramatic, but I can say.

You're in a war. I think you can. I think you have license to say something dramatic. Yes, because every day for us, it's some kind of fight for this day. And we never can say what this tomorrow will be. You said earlier too, you said that like, it's something about like writing is like creating life. this tomorrow will be. You said earlier too, you said that like, you know, it's something about like writing is like creating life and it's about, you know, you're creating a world, a writing that comes alive.

And then it's also thinking about the future, which, you know, it's assuming that somebody is going to read this someday. This is going to get published someday. You're sort of, you're creating something that will have a life, you know, in the future. Yes. Yes. It's all about life. Yes, I agree. But about our motivation, because we dream about future, but we certainly can imagine what it will be. Maria Galina says, during the war, writing and even reading Ukrainian fiction has become an act of patriotism. They want to preserve their culture and stop it from being dissolved and absorbed into

Russia. And by the way, in this clip, you're going to hear some noises in the background while she's talking. Maria Galina says, I think that there is one of the crimes that Russia do with Ukrainian people now. It is they try to take away history. For example, when in the territories that are occupied, they do not allow use Ukrainian textbooks and manuals. And they do not allow study Ukrainian and Ukrainian

literature. So they try just to reintegrate it with Russia, but it cannot be reintegrated. It was never integrated. So how can it be? — Volodymyr heard a story about a teacher who risked her life to save Ukrainian books, including his books. One teacher from the small town near Kiev told me when Russians came to the city, she tried to save Ukrainian books from the library because she knew they will burn them, you know, as in Bradbury's novel. Yeah, Fahrenheit 451. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And she collected all these books in bags. And then she hides them in backyard on her house

she came to me and said oh I saved your book and hide it and just now I returned all these books and your book book two in library so the books in these days for Ukrainians

it's a symbol of country, of culture, of, you know, you could fire us, you could try to kill us, but some things will save and will return. And stories, you try to not cry when you hear it, when some people tell you. you try to not cry when you hear it when some people tell you if these soldiers will see these books they could just kill them for these books and you know

if somebody tell me these words for example five years ago or ten years ago I would say it's too cinematical too dramatical too bookish. It couldn't be in real

life, but it is. Another friend told him a story about one of his books that felt like it was out of a movie. A friend says to me, you know, there was a missile and it stood in

the center of our car. Car that just stayed near the house. And car, of course, was in fire and broken, broken, broken. And then she sends me a photo and there is my book in this car. And it's not in fire. It's very fragile things when you hear these stories. That's such an amazing image of the bomb that goes to the car,

and your book survives. What is the book? What was the book? Which book was it that survived? It's Cursed Sword. It's fantasy, but with reference, part of the book is about nowadays. I found a description of Cursed Sword on a Ukrainian website.

The summary says, It was in ancient times now forgotten. Heroes and monsters walked the earth then, and the former could not always be distinguished from the latter. And the word in those days was sharper than the sword, although swords were able to say their sharp word then. After the break, we'll hear from a science fiction writer who became a big literary breakout star during the war. are during the war. Last year, I talked with Boris Sudyuk.

He translates English language sci-fi and fantasy into Ukrainian, and he says Ukrainian has become even more popular in the publishing industry. All the publishers in Ukraine now stopped publishing anything in Russian. Not because it's a prohibited language in Ukraine, but because, well, to publish books, comics, and so on in the language of your enemy, well, sounds quite funny. As I mentioned earlier, Ukrainians have been craving fantasy in reaction to all the years of Soviet rule, which favored science fiction. But the war tipped the scales back in the opposite direction.

After the war started, local publishers started demanding local writers to write more hard science fiction rather than fantasy. Maybe because we started to be more technically oriented or more interested in, well, in metal, say so, in technical achievements. You mean in the last year because you've had to rely so much on technology? Yeah, because in 21, well, most of that kind of literature

in the publisher's to-do list were fantasies. I suppose that all the audience now considers that with a sword, you cannot defeat the Russian invasion. And you need tanks, you need hard metal weapons, not a sword to defeat the Russian invasion. So I suppose that is one of the reasons why hard science fiction is back. And there is one science fiction book everyone's been buzzing about.

I should tell you that there is at least one, well, I would say new bright star in the Ukrainian science fiction. It's Maxim Kedruk, who even launched his own publishing house recently, it was about a couple of months ago, and he's just issued his first book. Well, it's not self-published because it's his publishing house, but his first book was his. It is Colony. LYRIE BANERJEE Colony is about a Ukrainian colony on Mars. IGOR KUZMICHEVSKY Max is very interesting, is very interesting, not only as a writer, but because it's probably the first time in the Ukrainian market when a writer is also a good marketing specialist and understands not only how to write a book, but how to publish it and how to promote it.

He has a whole team who works with him and he involves even his readers to be in his team and to help him to well, to make better novels in this. Because the colony is the first novel in the series of novels. As far as I know, there will be at least three books. And he preferred to publish it in hard copies rather than in electronics. Boris got me in touch with Max Kiedruk. Max and his wife started their publishing house last year.

It had been a dream of theirs for a long time. They poured their savings into it. last year. It had been a dream of theirs for a long time. They poured their savings into it. But the printing presses are in the east near the war zone. And when they weren't worried that the facilities were going to be bombed, they had to wait for them to get back online because the Russians kept targeting power grids. It's damn scary to see that you can just lose everything like in an instance. I don't know how the hell did they print that book,

but they did it and they did it actually in time. Even then, he had low expectations. Everything was against this book. It's complexity because it's hard science fiction with lots of science and it's just a big book. And I know it's how how hard to publish like 900 pages book in the tick tock era and yet here we are we already uh ordered the second print run the first run was the first print run was 12 000 copies it was sold like almost instantly. The second print run will arrive next Monday. And we already sold

more than more than three quarters of it. We actually planning to order the third print run like right away. These numbers are like, they're good even for peaceful times for Ukraine, like 20,000 copies within a month and a half. That's like really, really good for like normal times. The inspiration for the book started years ago. He was very concerned about climate change, and he was reading about how the warming of the oceans could lead to a mass extinction of species. And that led him to another obsession, how humans could escape the earth and start another civilization on Mars. He spent years researching the physics of space travel and exploration, to the point where he figured out exactly how there could be an international community of humans on Mars.

But he knew his main characters had to be Ukrainian. I mean, I am an Ukrainian, so I write firstly, like, and mainly for Ukrainian public. So I have to write something about Ukraine on Mars. So I started thinking, like, how can I depict Ukrainian diaspora on Mars, like, in the most, like, reasonable way? For me, it was a city to, you know, to picture a Ukraine like a huge space nation. I mean, if you read this, you would like some kind of bullshit. I mean, you will not believe in this. So I was thinking, what could we do best? What do we do best right now as a nation? We grow food, like potatoes, corns and stuff and then I realized like look

we know how to do this, we know how to do this efficiently. So I decided that my diaspora, Ukrainians on Mars, they grow everything in this way. So they provide like 70% of food on Mars. And Ukrainians don't have, I mean, they don't influence some kind of politics directly, because they are not in this kind of the Council of 1919, which is the body, like, which... It's like the UN Security Council, sort of like, yeah. They have no direct access to it. but because they provide lots of food, this Council of 19, every time, every year goes to Ukrainian diaspora and asks how many newborns they can feed, how many new colonies they can invite from the earth. And in this way, Ukrainians influence politics and processes in the Martian colony. So I really had fun writing this part of the story.

Like, I mean, how Ukrainians trying to get what they want, manipulating with food production and stuff. Yeah. And you hired artists, too, to help design elements of the colony? Tell me about that. I can show you. artists, too, to help design elements of the colony? Tell me about that. I can show you.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. So that's one more reason why we decided to start our own publishing house, because you can do more. Yeah. Can I say, by the way, people can't see you right now, but that is a big book that you're holding. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a big book that you're holding. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a big book. I always try to put more efforts to give something extra because I know that right now literature has to fight with lots of things like YouTube and, you know, computer games, TikTok, and so on. So you have to give something extra for a reader. The detail of the images in the book were amazing.

He hired a cartographer to create a 3D model of the colony, so they created images of it from every angle. The book also has graphs to explain how the Martian calendar syncs up with Earth and where the flight windows would be. He created charts which detail how many colonists arrived on Mars from the beginning and how many people were born or died there. And the book also has illustrations of low-flying aircraft. I'm an engineer by background. So I actually developed, I don't know if you can see it. Yeah, those are, they look like almost like

Martian helicopters. These are Martian converted planes. You know what is converted plane? It's kind of tilt rotor. It's kind of an aircraft which starts, like lifts off as a helicopter. And then during the normal flight, it lowers the engines like this and then proceeds like a winged aircraft. Well, it makes sense to me why this would be so popular now. I mean, you're in a fight for survival right now. So to imagine not just Ukraine winning the war, being victorious, being independent again, but continuing to grow and expand and have an outpost on Mars,

I think it probably gives people a sense of hope. outpost on Mars, I think it's probably gives people a sense of hope. I think yes, but I wouldn't say this about the book in general, because, you know, the title of the whole series is New Dark Ages. So nothing good happens in the end, both on Mars and on Earth. And that's another reason why quick success surprises me. Because I view myself as a science fiction writer, not the guy who kind of must teach people how they should do. I view myself as a guy who should depict like the worst case scenario in the most realistic way. So I will show you, look, this is what could happen. It may not, but I mean, it really, really could. So let's just sit and talk.

What can we do so this will not happen? It's kind of the main point of this book that despite all the achievement, we as humans, we do not change. But it sounds like you're also tapping into a very common theme in science fiction, which is that technology will not save us. That it doesn't matter how advanced our technology is, we are still human and it will be our flaws, our human flaws that will do us in more so than, you know, technology will not be our destructor or savior necessarily. Yeah, that's basically what my story is about. By the way, the book is not available in English yet, but they're working on it. After my episode came out last year, a lot of listeners asked how they could support Ukrainian fiction writers. And I will include links again to charitable organizations in the show notes.

But everybody I spoke with said this is also a war to erase their culture and identity. So any pressure on social media helps. For instance, several people I spoke with talked about Worldcon. Worldcon is an international convention. It's held every year in a different country. This year, it's going to be in China. One of the guests of honor will be the Russian science fiction writer Sergei Lukyanenko. Boris has been part of a campaign to get Worldcon to rescind that invitation.

He said that Ukraine has no right to exist. There is no Ukrainians at all. And all Ukrainians should be eliminated because it is their land, it's Russian land. And that guy was invited to Chinese World's Con to be a guest of honor. Wow. Boris has also been urging Anglophone writers to boycott Russia. We asked them to stop selling licenses to their publishers, to stop dealing with Russian business, and many of them did that.

Including Neil Gaiman and Stephen King. That was a big deal. Stephen King in particular is hugely popular in Russia. But there are a lot of sci-fi fantasy writers and readers in Russia who are against Putin and against the war, and they feel like they're being unjustly punished. They're trapped in a dictatorship, they're afraid to speak out, and now they can't even dream of escaping through their favorite western fantasy books. Voldemir has heard those arguments, and he's not sympathetic. I know there is a point of view about good readers,

that good readers are not guilty because Putin is bad, but it was very helpful for us in moral sense, in financial sense, because it's working. I always was very peaceful and I always believed we could find some common words, common points of view.

But in this moment, it's not a time for me for peaceful trying to, you know, maybe there are good readers and so on and let's be not so cruel. We could do more peaceful when we will have peace. In another kind of activism, Svetlana and her friends started a YouTube channel. They actually

started it before the war. Now it's become a lifeline. It's about speculative fiction, and it's mostly in Ukrainian, but they have interviewed English language writers like Joe Abercrombie, R.F. Kuang, V.E. Schwab, and Joe Hill, who happens to be the son of Stephen King. It was very emotional for us. They could speak with their fans during our online streams. They have a lot of fans in Ukraine. We had an interview with Joe Hill. It was very interesting.

I remember he made interesting parallels with other famous writers like Graham Greene or Remarque and Jokil said, now when I see you, I can understand how they managed to write during the Second World War. It was funny for me. To be compared to like Graham Greene. Yeah, in all our interviews, we ask our colleagues, our fantasy stars to come sometimes to Ukraine and maybe we will have some Ukrainian con and we invite you, all fans who wants to see Ukraine, Kyiv, our beautiful country in the future after our win victory we can speak about

Ukrainian fantasy and a lot of good things that we have in Ukraine I would love it if you had a Ukrainian con in Kyiv, I would love to go. It's a wonderful thought. Yeah. Boris is hopeful that when the war is over, speculative fiction in Ukraine will be even more popular and more deeply rooted in Ukrainian themes.

in Ukraine will be even more popular and more deeply rooted in Ukrainian themes. We only can guess, but it will be definitely much stronger than it was before February 24. Much stronger. That is it for this week. Thank you for listening. Special thanks to Maria Galina, Boris Sidduk, Volodymyr Arenev, Svetlana Taratarina, and Max Kedruk. I put a link in the show notes to Svetlana's YouTube channel, which is called Fantastic Talks. I also put links to charitable organizations as well. My assistant producer is Stephanie Billman. If you'd like to advertise on Imaginary Worlds, let us know. Send an email to sponsors at multitude dot productions. The best way to support Imaginary Worlds is to donate on Patreon.

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