Imaginary Worlds - A Visit by Three Ghosts

Episode Date: December 24, 2018

In a special stocking stuffer of an episode, Stephanie Billman and I discuss why A Christmas Carol set the template for SF stories to come -- from Back to the Future to X=Men. Plus, we have a special announcement about the future of Imaginary Worlds! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You're listening to Imaginary Worlds, special Christmas Eve edition. I'm in the studio with Stephanie Billman. Hello. This is the last time that we're going to be in Panoply's studio. That's so sad. I know. I love the studio. It's really cute. Yeah. So what is going on with the show? Let me give you an update.

Panoply picked up Imaginary Worlds in the beginning of 2016. And originally, Panoply was part of Slate, and then Panoply split off to become its own company. And now Panoply is going to completely transform and basically become a technology company that is just focused on the web platform that they've developed called Megaphone, which is where you can upload your podcast and have it distributed out there. And they can also help you get some ads. But Panoply is not going to exist anymore as a podcasting network. So we are going to be moving to Midroll, which is very exciting. Midroll in our industry is really well known. It's a very solid network.

It also bought the app Stitcher. And if you're not familiar with Stitcher, it has really become a competitor to the iPhone podcast app or Google Play. So in 2019, you will hear me talk a lot about Stitcher Premium and all the rewards that will come from Stitcher Premium. So very excited about that. Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, me too. So speaking of the past, present, and future,

I'm here to talk to Stephanie because she presented a theory to me which I found very interesting that I had never really thought about. And it has to do with A Christmas Carol. Yes. So as we were talking, you know, A Christmas Carol, for whatever reason,

I love watching every iteration that you can put in front of me. Wait, let me stop you there. Why? I honestly don't know. Really? I just really like the story. Yeah.

And I just like the story itself. It's a perfect hand-in-hand for Christmas. It talks about redemption, and you can actually kind of understand Ebenezer, or at least I can, especially as the older I get. It's like bah humbug. Kids get off my lawn? Yeah, basically. get it's like bah humbug kids get off my lawn yeah basically so just watching all the various iterations and there's so many i've really enjoyed them but i've come to an idea so yeah so what's your what's your theory uh my theory is that uh christmas carol is actually one of the first um

sci-fi fantasy tales well it's interesting because there have been so many versions of A Christmas Carol. Well, first of all, A Christmas Carol gets used all the time. I remember every sitcom in the 80s either had their It's a Wonderful Life or their Christmas Carol version of the story. But I know it's been in a lot of sci-fi fantasy stuff like Quantum Leap, Next Generation.

Doctor Who had it twice, at least. Yeah, they actually had Charles Dickens as a character where the ghosts were actually an alien race. But then in the Matt Smith era, he actually used the Christmas Carol story. You had this Scrooge type character that was going to let all these people die. And Matt Smith basically used a Christmas Carol trope to teach this person a lesson about saving these people that were matt smith basically used a christmas carol trope to teach this personal lesson about saving these people that were about to die why are you here because i'm not finished with you yet you've seen the past present and now you need to see the future yeah and then um you

actually pointed out a movie which i would never, ever think of as having the structure of Christmas Carol, but yet it intentionally does. So Iron Man 3, of all things. As you know, Shane Black has a tendency to kind of shove Christmas into a lot of his stories. Long Kiss Goodbyes, he uses Christmas in a very violent way. As does Doctor Who, actually, sometimes in their Christmas specials. Exactly, yeah. They're almost killed by an alien-possessed Christmas tree. Or alien Santa Clauses.

Yeah. Or snowmen. Yes. But for Iron Man 3, Shane Black actually was very specific about saying that he used the Christmas Carol structure of the past, the present, and the future to tell the evolution of Tony Stark. And so, as Christmas morning began, my journey had reached its end. We start with something pure, something exciting. Then come the mistakes, the compromises. We create our own demons. But going back to Christmas Carol itself, and speaking of three ghosts, you're saying that there are three ways that A Christmas Carol was innovative for sci-fi fantasy as a genre, even though the story was written in the early 1840s.

Yes. The first way, of course, is the ghosts themselves. Yes. The first way, of course, is the ghosts themselves. You know, this is kind of the first time that ghosts were taken as a very serious literary device. But what about like Hamlet?, the ghosts are not necessarily actual ghosts. They're manifestation of guilt or manifestation of madness. So these are not actual spirits that are coming to haunt Hamlet. Right. And also delivering exposition too. Exactly. Whereas in the actual novel A Christmas Carol, Dickens goes out of his way to point out and make sure that the reader understands these are ghosts. These are corporeal beings that are coming to warn him of his deeds.

Right, they're driving the story. Exactly. And, you know, Marley has the chains of his life on him in most of The Christmas Carol, and they're manifested actual chains. You can actually see these where in Hamlet, you never really are sure if this is just Hamlet's craziness or his guilt about the fact that he abandoned his family or whether or not he's properly avenging his father's death. But there's these real chains of all of the stuff that Marley has done in his life that's weighed him down in his afterlife. You don't believe in me. I don't.

What evidence would you have of my reality beyond that of your own senses? I don't know. Why do you doubt your senses? Yeah, I always loved, I mean, I always loved how creepy Marley was. I mean, I always felt like the creepier and scarier he was, the better the Christmas Carol. Yeah, and that sets the tone for the rest of the story because Scrooge has to believe that this is a perk that is something that's coming to haunt him in order for him to actually be ready to deal with the ghost of christmas past which brings us to the fact that this isn't just a ghost story this is also a time travel story right yeah so he it starts where he's going to the past so the ghost of christmas past is usually this more angelic looking being that floats him along to his past, to his time of innocence where he

was a child. There's always at least one scene where he's at school and you see how lonely he is. Sometimes there are versions where the sister comes in and kind of like, oh, you're coming home. You're going to be home for Christmas after all. And you see this hope and this happiness in Scrooge. And it's interesting to see the Ebenezer, the current Ebenezer, watching that. There's always some tears in his eyes, especially when he sees his sister, because she's dead and he hasn't seen her in so long. And it's a reminder of that love and that innocence that he no longer has in his life. Ebenezer.

Fen! Oh, dear brother, I have come to bring you home. Home, home, home. You see that kindness that he had. Like Fen, or sometimes her name's Fen, sometimes it's something else. That's the last, I think, true love that he had from his family. And it's really, it's a sad tale, but that reminds him in his present as he's going in his past

to see his humanity as it slips away. I mean, that is definitely a very fundamentally sci-fi idea, certainly. You know, very often they'll literally go to their, well, I mean, the most obvious version would be Back to the Future, of course. Exactly. Doc Brown says at the end, your future isn't written yet, so just make it a good one. I mean, that's

true. That is a very fundamentally sci-fi fantasy idea. Exactly. And this is, the original novel probably came out 50 years before A Time Machine. Oh, yeah. Definitely before that. And there is some suggestion that even It's a Wonderful Life took inspiration from this as well. Right. It's the same story, basically, except it's a good man who doesn't value his worth or doesn't appreciate how much he's worth as opposed to a bad man who doesn't realize how much damage he's caused.

Exactly. But I always find It's a Wonderful Life way more depressing than A Christmas Carol. Yeah, yeah. There was actually a really interesting article in The Times years ago about how actually Pottersville would have been financially far better shape in the 21st century than Bedford Falls as it was left at the end of that movie. Huh, interesting. That as a small town, it would have really struggled without the kind of entertainment Huh. Interesting. I mean, you know, it's funny, too, because I was talking about how I always loved how dark and scary Marley was.

I mean, but to me, the other to me, what always made a great Christmas Carol as well is how incredibly dark and disturbing the ghost of Christmas future. Like I wanted to be scared. Yeah. By that character. I mean, you you almost always are. That character hardly ever speaks. It's and it works even better. They're usually like they basically look like the Grim Reaper.

I mean, I remember, did you see Scrooged when it came out in the theaters? The Bill and Mary movie? Yeah. One of my favorites. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that scene was really dark and powerful. Yeah.

May I? Did our people do that? We're going to get phone calls. Oh, I love that part. Yeah. All the people with eternal torture going inside his robe. Yeah, literally on his ribcage. On his ribcage, yeah.

And there's also the part of the future in Scrooge where, even worse, his behavior infected his ex-girlfriend's behavior. And she actually turned out to be cold and saw orphans on the street. And she was just like, shake them off, Claire. And then she thanked Lumpy for giving her that life lesson. So it's an alternate universe where not only is he dead, but what he's done has infected the kindness of people that were around him. I wasted 20 years of my life on pathetic little creatures like those. Finally, thank God, a friend of mine said to me,

scrape them off, Claire. You want to save somebody, save yourself. Well, it's funny, though, because, I mean, it's not just an alternate future. It's a dystopian future. Yes, which brings us to the other part, way in which A Christmas Carol is a sci-fi fantasy. It talks about alternate universes or parallel universes. You know, the future, as everyone, you know, there's always this saying that each step creates a different split and a different parallel universe. So you make one decision and the decision that you didn't make could span off into another parallel universe.

Hence the multiverses. In this story, you have this version where Scrooge doesn't change his ways. He ends up dying. This person who no one cares that he dies. There's some films, they're like selling his bedclothes that they're still fresh and warm and they can see how much they can get off of it. And Tiny Tim dies. This poor little kid who, through no fault of his own, dies because Scrooge doesn't care that he's not paying his father enough to care for Tiny Tim. All right. So I have an idea. Could you argue that X-Men Days of Future Past

is following this formula? We start out in this dystopian future where the world has basically ended and these sort of robot-type creatures who are hunting down all the mutants and they have to go back to the past, the 1970s, or Wolverine has to, to fix things. And what it really turns out is that this future happens, really it comes down to Mystique as to whether she's going to go down the dark path of what she did in the original X-Men films, or now that she's played by Jennifer Lawrence, whether she will then become a hero. And they have a positive future because of it. Get out of my head, Charles! Raven, please do not make us the enemy today. Look around you, we already are.

Not all of us. All you've done so far is save the lives of these men. You can show them a better path. Well, see, you've just actually proved my point that A Christmas Carol was like the original template for this story. And it's been told in so many different ways. And it can work outside of Christmas stories. It works with, like you said, X-Men. It doesn't take place during Christmas, but the structure actually still stays the same.

Cool. So what's your favorite version of Christmas Carol? Muppets Christmas Carol. Why? Okay. So I don't know if you know this, but I'm not a fan of musicals i just don't like music like where the story and all of a sudden people break out in a song not really my my idea of a good time yeah no i know a lot of people feel that way i grew up on musicals so i did not yes but the way that uh muppets muppet christmas carol actually uses song very well it incorporates it into the story and michael cain i think is probably one of the better Scrooges, I really think.

And not only that, but he's actually playing as if these Muppets are real people. Don't they usually do that, though, in the Muppets? They do, but I think Michael Caine does it even better. I think the way that he does it, he relates to them in such a way that reminds you of the story. It's very dark, I think, to some extent. One might say that December is the foreclosure season. Harvest time for the moneylenders. If you please, Mr. Scrooge, it's gotten colder.

Any bookkeeping staff would like to have an extra shovel full of coal for the fire? We can't do the bookkeeping. And Tiny Tim, the little green Muppet that plays Tiny Tim, is so heartbreaking. He's so, he's this tiny little tadpole and he's like, you know, limping along on his one little poor crutch.

God bless us. Everyone. And then you see like when in the future you see just the empty chair and the crutch because Tiny Tim died. It's so sad. It's really gut-wrenching for me. Wow.

Yeah. It's a really, it's by far my favorite. Wow. I mean, I have a favorite actually version of Christmas Carol. It's a weird one. Speaking of, it's funny you don't like musicals. I know, right? This is a musical.

Um, speaking of, it's funny you don't like musicals. I know, right? This is a musical. Uh, when I lived in LA, I think it debuted in 2002, but it's been revived a bunch of times. It is the story of the Christmas Carol, but instead of Scrooge, it's William Mulholland, the man who famously stole water from the Owens Valley in Northern California to hydrate Los Angeles and created an absolute, just destroy that community of Owens Valley. It's considered LA's original sin. It's based, the plot of Chinatown is based on Mulholland. So it imagines Mulholland learning about his crimes, basically his, you know, what he's done. And I think Teddy Roosevelt is the ghost of Christmas present. And my favorite thing is the ghost of Christmas. There are two ghosts of Christmas future, but they're supposed to be L.A. in the future.

And one of them is Sprawl. Like he just represents Sprawl. I think that's his name. His name is actually Sprawl. Yes. Of what is going to happen because and I think and then in the end, improbably, he ends up making this wonderful choice to give them all back their water and benevolently and then somehow LA must then

not turn into the actual city that you're watching the musical in How does that work? It's magic See it's sci-fi fantasy But it's a really it's a really lovely charming show and they've revived it many times.

It's a show that could never play outside L.A. It just makes no sense, but it's so much fun as an L.A. tradition. And I've never been to L.A., so when you're explaining this to me, it's just so foreign. We'll give the water back to Owens Valley. We're going to build a paradise in Central Cali. After the break, we will look at how A Christmas Carol has influenced a debate that rages online

every time this year. What defines a Christmas movie? Imaginary Worlds is brought to you by Liberty Mutual Insurance. Everybody who owns a car or a house knows the importance of insurance. It gives you the peace of mind to know that you're protected. But you don't want to be overpaying for coverage that you're not using. Wouldn't you want an insurance provider that lets you customize your coverage so you only pay for what you need?

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about what makes a Christmas movie. Because there's a huge debate about this. Huge. The one that everyone fights over is Die Hard. Yes. Whether Die Hard is a Christmas movie. Second to that, of course, is Batman Returns. Oh, God.

Which I love. So I even went online to read all the arguments as to why it's a good Christmas movie. Yeah. Lay them on me. So here's the one that I found most compelling,

other than the fact that obviously it takes place during Christmas, is Selina Kyle and her character arc, you know, in terms of she starts out as this sort of

mousy secretary and then, you know, she's thrown out a window, of course, by Donald Trump. It's played by Christopher Walken. But it's like unquestionably Donald Trump. And then she becomes a super acrobatic, undead vengeance seeker. And then, you know, she meets the man of her dreams and Bruce Wayne, who is, you know, this prince,

dark Prince Charming, who has the same issues as her. And that was her previous goal, was to end up with him. But she's like, no, she has this kind of self-actualization that that's not good enough for her anymore. And, you know, and it ends with him saying, you know, to Alfred. Merry Christmas, Alfred. Goodwill toward men and women. How is that not Christmassy? Okay, so let's take Christmas out of that just for a second.

If you really think about it. Could that story be set in the summer? Yes. Literally, it could be set any time of the year. Except for the scene where they realize that they've been fighting as Batman and Catwoman, but then when they're dancing at the party as selena kyle and bruce wayne they see the mistletoe and they have that line about how mistletoe is deadly unless you eat it but a kiss is deadlier if you mean it and that's when they realize who they are to each other okay let's let's okay so but the arc we're talking about selena kyle's arc right you're you're pointing out how that's kind of like that follows the same trope of A Christmas Carol. But it also follows the same trope of pretty much every eat, pray, love, lifetime movie, woman self-actualization movie that's ever happened.

But do they reject the guy like that? Yes. Some of them they do. Like there's these movies where the woman, like, something traumatic happens to her. She goes through this. She looks through her past. She deals with some traumatic thing that happens. And then she decides, oh, I'm stronger on my own.

And then she goes off into the sunset. The only difference is Selina Kyle has leather at the end and acrobatic abilities. So that's not necessarily Christmassy. It's just a woman finding herself and realizing that she's stronger on her own. So what is OK? So those are all totally valid points. Yes. What is an inherent what makes a Christmas movie? So to me, a Christmas movie is one about goodwill towards man, believing in the goodness of humanity and coming together to celebrate something bigger than ourselves. All of these things. And it doesn't necessarily have to be something religious related. You know, some people, when it comes to Christmas, they come to celebrate family. That to me is what

makes a Christmas story because it's a very inherent. Not your self-actualization. Not your self-actualization. Not this, oh, I've messed up my life and, you know, I've done all these horrible things. Let me come to this conclusion that I need to help other people. It's just this general goodwill towards men because Scrooge learns a lesson, yes. But what he does at the end is what I think makes it a Christmas story. So for me, that's what makes a good Christmas story. Cool. All right.

Well, very interesting. Yeah. I like it. Well, thank you. This has also been your first year here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so it's been a very interesting year.

I've learned a lot from you. Oh, that's nice. And I'm not just saying that because you're in front of me. Oh. But, no, I've met some amazing people. Yeah. You know, and covered some really great stories. I've talked to people that I didn't think I would ever talk to.

Welcome to my world. I know, right? And the show is so much better because of you, too. Oh, thank you. That means a lot to me. And it's just gratifying to be on this side and see all the work that goes into it. And then see the love and the reaction that the episodes get. It's really touching.

Oh, yeah. All right. We're looking forward to 2019. Yes. More stuff to come. There he is, Mr. Ebenezer Scrooge. Imaginary Worlds is part

of the Panoply Network for a little bit longer. You can like the show on Facebook. I tweeted E. Malinsky and Imagine Worlds Pod. And the website is imaginaryworldspodcast.org. dot org but there's nothing in nature that freezes your heart like years of being alone it paints you with indifference like a lady

paints with rouge and the worst of the worst the most hated and cursed is the one that we call Scrooge unkind as any

and the wrath of many this is Ebenezer Scrooge oh there goes Mr. Humbug there goes Mr. Grim. If they gave a prize for being mean, the winner would be

him.