Imaginary Worlds - Ahsoka Tano - A New Hope

Episode Date: September 17, 2020

If you’re the type of Star Wars fan who knows the original trilogy by heart but hasn’t seen much else, Ahsoka Tano may be the most beloved Star Wars character you’ve never heard of. In the animated series Clone Wars, she was Anakin Skywalker’s padawan who became a legendary Jedi in her own right. And if the Internet rumors are true, she will make her live action debut played by Rosario Dawson in season 2 of The Mandalorian. I talk with entertainment journalists Lauren Davis and Amy Richau about how Ahsoka captured the imagination of Star Wars fans, and why she might be important to the future of the franchise. McKenna Fellows takes us into the world of Ahsoka cosplay, and designer Rachel Roth discusses why she created a couture dress based on Ahsoka’s costume.  See McKenna Fellows' cosplay of Ahsoka See Rachel Roth's couture Ahsoka dress at the Her Universe Fashion Show Today's episode is brought to you by MasterClass and BetterHelp. Want to advertise/sponsor our show? We have partnered with AdvertiseCast to handle our advertising/sponsorship requests. They’re great to work with and will help you advertise on our show. Please email [e-mail] or click the link below to get started. Imaginary Worlds AdvertiseCast Listing Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How do stop losses work on Kraken? Let's say I have a birthday party on Wednesday night, but an important meeting Thursday morning. So, sensible me pre-books a taxi for 10pm with alerts. Voila! I won't be getting carried away and staying out till 2. That's stop loss orders on Kraken. An easy way to plan ahead. Go to Kraken.com and see what crypto can be. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. See Kraken.com slash legal slash CA dash PRU dash disclaimer

for info on Kraken's undertaking to register in Canada. A special message from your family jewels brought to you by Old Spice Total Body. Hey, it stinks down here. Why do armpits get all of the attention? We're down here all day with no odor protection. Wait, what's that? Mmm, vanilla and shea. That's Old

Spice Total Body Deodorant. 24-7 freshness from pits to privates with daily use. It's so gentle. We've never smelled so good. Shop Old Spice Total Body Deodorant now. You're listening to Imaginary Worlds, a show about how we create them and why we suspend our disbelief. I'm Eric Malinsky. Star Wars is probably the most mainstream sci-fi fantasy franchise. It is a rite of passage to watch the original trilogy as a kid. But many Star Wars fans aren't familiar with the stuff beyond the movies. The comics, the novels, the animated TV shows, that's considered

for hardcore fans. And if Baby Yoda hadn't taken the internet by storm, I think The Mandalorian could have fallen into that camp as well. But today, we're going to hear from some people who may convince you to give that other material a chance, like Amy Rickau, who writes for StarWars.com. The more and more people I talk to, a lot of people who are heavily involved, who are writing about it both professionally and who are doing podcasts and going to Star Wars Celebration

and are kind of the people who I think likely are going to grow into positions where they are creators themselves of official Star Wars things. A lot of them don't hold the original trilogy on the pedestal that so many of us do. So the original trilogy is still probably always going to be my favorite Star Wars. But it really, really makes me happy that it's not everyone's favorite Star Wars. not everyone's favorite Star Wars.

And if you only know Star Wars from the movies, you might not know that Ahsoka Tano is possibly the most popular character among hardcore Star Wars fans right now. She was Anakin Skywalker's Jedi apprentice in the animated series Clone Wars, which told the story of the Clone Wars. So it was set between Episode 2, Attack of the Clones, and Episode 3, Revenge of the Sith. To give you a visual image, Ahsoka is a humanoid alien.

She has orange skin with white markings around her face, but her real standout feature is an alien appendage on her head that branches up like horns and hangs down like tails over her shoulders. that branches up like horns and hangs down like tails over her shoulders. It's white with grayish blue stripes. She also uses two lightsabers, one short and one long. She is a total badass. If you had only watched the movies, she was the first female Jedi who, you know, had dialogue. Like there were some female Jedi in the prequels, but none of them actually even said anything.

She wasn't in the story because she was romantically involved with anyone. She wasn't in the story because she was related to anyone. She just was a strong and powerful leader who then didn't let being a Jedi define who she was. And today's episode will be full of spoilers because to explain why Ahsoka is important to the story of Star Wars, I need to explain her entire character arc. Because if the internet rumors are true, we will see Ahsoka in live action for the first time when Rosario Dawson will play her in season two of The Mandalorian.

Now for such a beloved character, Ahsoka's debut was not well received. Now, at first, the animated Clone Wars series began as a movie, and it was definitely aimed at kids. Fans over the age of 10 were mostly disappointed. Lauren Davis has written about Ahsoka for the site io9, and she says the fans were particularly harsh on this new character. I saw I remember seeing a lot of earlier reviews

that called her like a totally killable character because you know people are like well she's a Jedi and you know we know that all Jedi die you know clearly this this character is expendable. Even Anakin Skywalker didn't want her around. There's been a mix-up. The youngling isn't with me. Stop calling me that. You're stuck with me, Sky Guy. What did you just call me? Don't get snippy with me, little one. You know, I don't even think you're old enough to be a Padawan.

Well, maybe I'm not, but Master Yoda thinks I am. I think that for a lot of people, there was this sense that like, even though the prequel movies were sort of terrible, that Anakin Skywalker was still this very like kind of sacred character. And having this kind of like little sister character, people didn't like that. They thought it was like somehow disrespectful to Anakin Skywalker, which to me smacks a bit of sexism.

Amy agrees. When I first heard why people didn't like her, they talked about how, you know, she was, you know, this bratty younger character who was stubborn and didn't have a lot of patience, didn't, you know, respond to authority. And my reaction to that was like, oh, you mean just like Luke and Anakin

when they were the same age? Like, that sounds very, you know, that sounds very familiar. You know, she's a young teenage character. And, you know, who among us isn't kind of annoying, you know, when we're that age? George Lucas was heavily involved in launching the Clone Wars TV show. He wanted to put Ahsoka in the movies, but he couldn't find the room. And under the guidance of the showrunner that he chose, Dave Filoni, the Clone Wars evolved from a kid's show to something much darker and more

cinematic. And over seven seasons, the storyline jumped. We saw Ahsoka grow from a 14-year-old Padawan to eventually being a 17-year-old Jedi warrior. Now, Ahsoka was originally created to help the audience have a better understanding of Anakin. And if you only know Anakin from the movies, get that version out of your head. I know that Hayden Christensen has his fans, but I think the voice actor who played Anakin in the show, Matt Lanter, elevated the character. And he had great chemistry with the voice actress

who played Ahsoka, Ashley Eckstein. You already did everything you could. Everything you had to do. When I was out there, alone, all I had was your training and the lessons you taught me. And because of you, I did survive. And not only that, I was able to lead others to survive as well. I don't know what to say. I do. Thank you, Master. This is one of the reasons why Ahsoka is so important to the story of Star Wars as a whole. The first six movies are ultimately about Darth Vader, but Anakin's character development in the prequels was severely lacking. And Lauren thinks Ahsoka helps fill in those gaps. You have to love Anakin Skywalker before you can really feel sad

about everything that happens with him. The real great Ahsoka Anakin moments are the ones where we understand why Anakin eventually turns to the dark side and where we really get to explore his doubts about his destiny and the Jedi, because Ahsoka is one of the few people that he can really be honest with. She gives us the opportunity to sit with Anakin in a way that we just don't get to in the movies. In the Clone Wars, Ahsoka and Anakin have a deep love for each other that is purely platonic. There are not a lot of female characters in Star Wars who get to have those types of relationships. Also in the animated series, Ahsoka, Anakin, and Obi-Wan are a trio of heroes, just like Luke, Han, and Leia were in the original trilogy.

In fact, after watching the animated series, it's weird to think that Ahsoka wasn't in the movies. She also became a surrogate for the fans, who've been wondering, how come none of the Jedi realized that they were becoming tools of a fascist empire until it was too late? And it takes her a long time to realize that.

At the beginning, she's a child. She sees the Jedi in the way that a lot of us saw the Jedi when we were kids. You know, yes, they are stiff and rigid, but they're like awesome. And they're the knights that are defending the galaxy. And they got cool laser swords. What she sees is so much more complicated. She sees people who do sort of want to do what's right, but they're so willing to just fall back on their institutions. So that's it? You're going to abandon Bo-Katan and her people? Ahsoka, surely you understand this is a pivotal moment in the Clone Wars. The heart of the Republic is under attack. I understand that as usual you're playing politics. This is why the people have lost faith in the Jedi. I had too, until I was reminded of

what the Order means to people who truly need us. The big storyline that altered her destiny was a terrorist attack on the Jedi Temple. Ahsoka was framed for the bombing. Anakin is the only one who believes in her, and he helps prove her innocence. But the Jedi Masters don't wonder why they were easily fooled. They think the Force must have been testing Ahsoka. They're asking you back, Ahsoka. I'm asking you back. And it's actually a horrifying moment because she sees that they just want to trust in the Force and they don't want to fix any of the problems.

I'm sorry, Master, but I'm not coming back. And it's just, it's stunning. It's a really stunning moment. And the fact that she turns away and the fact that she leaves, it's just kind of solidifies her position as just an incredible character and a really strong character in the universe because how tempting is that? But she knows that's not enough. She knows that she's got to find another way. Why are you doing this? The council didn't trust me. So how can I trust myself? What about me? I believed in you. I stood by you. I know you believe in me, Anakin, and I'm grateful for that. But this isn't about you. I can't stay here any longer.

Again, Amy Rakow. Usually when you hear people talk about Ahsoka, you very rarely, and this pleases me, you don't hear that like, oh, Ahsoka, she quit the Jedi Order, like as if like she's a quitter. Like, I don't think anyone ever feels that way because that's not the way it was presented. And that's certainly not the point. And it's okay to leave a situation that's, you know, not good. I mean, that is really important for young girls to see

that it's not a weakness to leave situations. It's, you know, it's a powerful move for yourself. Leaving the Jedi Order also put Ahsoka out of the main storyline of episode three, which gives a canonical reason why she's not in that movie. But she does see the Republic fall and has to flee into hiding. But that's not the end of her story. Ahsoka appears again in another animated series called Rebels, which takes place right before A New Hope. At that point, Ahsoka appears again in another animated series called Rebels, which takes place right before A New Hope. At that point, Ahsoka is in her 30s. She's helping to guide this young rebellion against the Empire.

The show features mostly new characters, but the big bad early on is Darth Vader, and they got James Earl Jones to do the voice. Ahsoka suspects that Anakin has become Vader, but she just can't believe it. She also feels guilty, because if she had stayed with the Jedi Order, it's possible she might have been able to stop what happened to him. I was beginning to believe I knew who you were behind that mask, but it's impossible. My master could never be as vile as you. Anakin Skywalker was weak. I destroyed him.

Then I will avenge his death. Revenge is not the Jedi way. I am no Jedi. I am no Jedi. That reunion in Star Wars Rebels is one of the most heartbreaking and really just amazing storylines in all of Star Wars. It is also a great lightsaber battle because they're almost evenly matched. As Anakin, he taught her everything he knew. And at one point, she slashes away part of his mask, revealing Anakin's yellow, bloodshot eye with burnt flesh around it.

Suddenly, the split personalities of Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader struggle with each other. One of the reasons why Lauren loves that scene is because she likes to imagine that long before Darth Vader sacrificed himself to save Luke Skywalker, Ahsoka was able to put a crack in his armor, literally and figuratively. In that moment, foreshadowed or maybe even helped set up Vader's redemption. A lot of new Star Wars can be very much, hey kids, you like Star Wars, star wars this is star wars star wars star wars star wars uh i have a bad feeling about this never tell me the odds you're talking about the fan servicey stuff the fan servicey stuff and i think that when new stuff rewards long-term viewers it it's not about those call-outs. It's about giving you moments that help shift the way that you feel about the things that came before.

Amy Rakow. People always say Star Wars is about hope, but really it's like, to me, it's like it's about hope in the face of extreme tragedy. But I think that what makes Darth Vader more tragic is when you realize that in his life, he did have these people like Obi-Wan and Ahsoka who were his family, but the power of the dark side, it was too much for him to like, you know, for him to see that. By the end of that series, Ahsoka has become like a Gandalf type figure, wearing a white robe with a hood, carrying a wooden staff, nothing like the teenage sidekick that we saw at the beginning of Clone Wars. And, you know,

it's, it's interesting. I think a lot of, um, other characters in Star Wars are, are very inward facing. They were like, what is my destiny?

What is my place? For Ahsoka, it's, it's much more about like, how, how do I make society better? And as I mentioned, she is probably going to be in season two of The Mandalorian, played by Rosario Dawson. And the fans have been lobbying for Rosario Dawson to play Ahsoka,

because her facial features already look like Ahsoka's. She's also the same age that Ahsoka would be during The Mandalorian, which takes place after Return of the Jedi. Now the showrunner of The Clone Wars and Rebels, Dave Filoni, is one of the writers, producers, and directors on The Mandalorian, so the fans are hopeful that this could be a good transition from animation to live action. Also in the animated TV shows, Ahsoka was very involved in Mandalorian politics. So there's a lot of potential for her to be a major player in the Mandalorian. But turning her into a live action character

has already been done to some extent in cosplay. And after the break, we will go deep into Ahsoka fandom and we'll hear from people who've been trying to recreate her in the real world for years. This episode is brought to you by Secret. Secret deodorant gives you 72 hours of clinically proven odor protection free of aluminum, parabens, dyes, talc and baking soda. It's made with pH balancing minerals and crafted with skin conditioning oils. Makenna Fellows is a lifelong Star Wars fan. As a kid, she used to imagine that Luke Skywalker was her imaginary friend, but mostly she liked to imagine herself as a Jedi.

Now, there were female Jedi in the comics and the novels, but Ahsoka was the first female Jedi to appear on screen with dialogue. And McKenna is now one of the most prominent Ahsoka cosplayers. to an end and now it's kind of like well now what I have to kind of go out on my own and figure this out and then that really hit me hard when she decided to leave the order at the end of season five because it's kind of the same feeling where everything I knew which was comfortable and great I can't stay there for whatever reason anymore so now I have to go out on my own and kind of figure out who I am, what I want to be doing, all that kind of stuff at the same time. It's interesting where you put it that

you're like, you know, you know, you look for characters that you connect with, and then you found Ahsoka. What is that like as a cosplayer? Is this something that you feel like I really, like this is a really good fit? I want Ahsoka to be one of my signature characters, or I want to seek out this sort of community of Ahsoka cosplayers. Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like I fall into the character and don't even realize it a lot. An example of one time where I really didn't feel connected is I had a bunch of friends telling me I should do Elsa at the peak of Frozen hype. And so I made the dress and it was a fun project. But whenever I was in costume, I felt very awkward. Like I didn't really know what to like for posing

or interacting with little kids who want you to be quote unquote in character. But it's like with Ahsoka, I feel like I don't really have to put on an act at all. I already am like sarcastic and uh like spunky i would love two lightsabers two is better than one like it so much already just clicked so what are the challenges of designing your costume there's a lot one thing i've learned is taking things from animation to live action in the form of costume is not easy.

Animators don't have to care about seams or how is she getting her giant head through the tiny little turtleneck with no zipper. So it's a lot of studying of what they do give you and then trying to figure out ways to make it actually wearable. Ahsoka has a couple different outfits, but for most of the Clone Wars series, she wears a dark red tunic. Her arms and legs are mostly free of clothing, so she can spring into action. The hardest part is making the alien appendage on her head. As I mentioned earlier, it's mostly white with grayish blue stripes that come up in the shape of horns on top of her head and come down like tails over her shoulders. The tails are called leku, and leku is the word that you'll hear a lot of cosplayers use as a shorthand to describe the entire headpiece. My first one was made out of like green upholstery foam, and it just turned into like this rock hard mess but I kept hearing

people talk about latex so I tried making a full latex one I used way too much it was super thick and very heavy and didn't move at all so finally I came to silicone which was kind of my ideal product in the first place but I was like I'll never be that advanced to get to that point. It scared me. It was more expensive, very finicky to use. So it's been kind of fun to learn all these different things, but there's definitely been a lot of failures. I feel like people, especially on social media,

never talk about what part of their costumes were their failures and learning experiences. I have a whole closet basically stacked full of failed silicone leku. Now she's become an expert in making leku. In fact, she sells them to other cosplayers. And she does Ahsoka at different ages, because Ahsoka's leku grows bigger and longer as she gets older. But the hardest part is figuring out how to make a headpiece that's light enough to wear. Because I've met so many Ahsoka cosplayers who say they're getting neck

problems or back problems because they can't move their head side to side or up or down. There was one girl I met at a celebration who said her headpiece weighed 20 pounds. That can't be good for you to wear. and I want people to have fun and not be in pain when they wear a costume. As McKenna was problem solving on how to make a leku, she was furloughed from her job because of the pandemic. Luckily, the demand from Ahsoka cosplayers is keeping her fully employed. And there aren't even fan conventions happening now, but Ahsoka cosplayers still want to show their costumes on social media. I also find it appropriate that Ahsoka is helping McKenna pay her rent because the character is so good to the core, she would want to help McKenna in any

way that she could. She's kind of saving my butt right now, especially with COVID. Like I'm working so much more than I was before, but I told my fiance, it's like before I was stuck at a desk all day, I didn't have a lot of work coming in. So I was often bored. And now I'm like, I'm never bored. And I'm, you know, working in there all day, all night, but it's worth it. Especially when people get their head pieces, they're just so ecstatic. It's really cool. Like, I never thought people would want my work in that way. Ahsoka has also created opportunities for Rachel Roth.

Rachel is a cosplayer, and she's also a fashion designer, who specializes in putting sci-fi fantasy references into her couture clothing. When I do try to design stuff, I try to hide the geeky elements. So when you're kind of, I guess, like, quote-unquote normie, you look at it and you're like, hey, that's a really cool dress. But if you know the fandom, you're like, oh, I see that. Oh, I see that. That's so cool.

So it's like kind of hidden, geeky, incognito, you know? Like a lot of Ahsoka fans, Rachel was not crazy about the character at first. She thought she was annoying. But gradually she became really impressed with Ahsoka to the point where she wanted to pay tribute to Ahsoka by designing a couture dress based on Ahsoka's main costume during the Clone Wars. Because honestly, I don't really see her herself wearing a dress.

So it's not something that was necessarily like I'm designing this like something that she would wear. It was more, I guess, to represent her personality and her strength. And then I took elements of like her actual tunic and just little designs here and there. And then I also tried to stick to, I guess, more natural fiber fabrics because the Jedi, they tend to stick to natural fibers as well, like leathers, linens, suede. So those are the fabrics I used for her dress as well. That is so interesting. I never thought about that, that their clothes, the Jedi's clothes are usually natural fabrics. Yeah, because they want to be more in tune with Earth and nature and the force around them. So they try to stay away from, I guess, more synthetic plastics type of polyester fabrics. Of course, the big challenge

is Ahsoka's Leku headpiece. Rachel wanted to figure out something that was subtle. And eventually she started looking at hijabs. I always like incorporating like different cultures into my designs without being cultural appropriation. So I wanted to make sure I was very respectful and I didn't do anything too out of the norm. And I took something and kind of just like, I know it was disrespectful in any way. And I thought it was a really good way to show the Leikyu headpiece. Because I've also seen like a lot of cosplayers like who incorporate hijabs into their cosplays because they're like oh this is part of my religion but I still want to be part of the

nerd culture and I really love seeing that and they get so creative with the different shapes so I actually remember just sitting there like in front of the mirror like practicing for hours trying to like do different folds different wraps to try to like do the little horn pieces on her leku and then have it hang down. So it wasn't like all wrapped around her head, but it would just kind of like hang down kind of like her tentacle pieces would. There is another important person in the world of Ahsoka fandom, Ashley Eckstein.

As I mentioned, she was the voice of Ahsoka in the animated shows, but she's also become Ahsoka's caretaker in the real world, managing the relationship between the character and the fans. McKenna had a great encounter with Ashley Eckstein at a convention. Now, there are a lot of Ahsoka cosplayers at any Star Wars convention, but McKenna was dressed as a version of the character when she was temporarily possessed by the dark side in the Clone Wars. And Ashley Eckstein has said that was her favorite episode to record. And as she was being almost carried away by her team, she stopped them and said, wait, I've seen this Ahsoka all weekend. She's my favorite and I have to get a picture with her. And I was just standing there like, what? Excuse me? Really?

She got more than a picture. Ashley Eckstein invited McKenna to come on her YouTube interview show, Tea Party Tuesdays. I'm still kind of geeking out that I'm even sitting here. Well, I am geeking out to be talking to you because any fan of Ahsoka's is a friend of mine. talking to you because any fan of Ahsoka's is a friend of mine. Ashley Eckstein also runs an online store for fangirl clothes called Her Universe and she created the Her Universe fashion show at San Diego Comic-Con where a panel of judges picks about two dozen designs among hundreds of applicants to show on the runway. In 2017, Rachel Roth's Ahsoka couture dress was accepted for the show. I showed my friends after I got accepted and they're like, Rachel, that was really smart that

you did that. And I'm like, what do you mean? I love Ahsoka. And they're like, Ashley, she's the owner of her universe. I was like, yeah, what about it? And they're like, Rachel, she's the voice actor of Ahsoka. And I'm like I'm like wait what I never put two and two together but when I actually did meet her when I like made the whole piece I put my friend Emma in it and we were like backstage Ashley came up to me and we were talking for a bit she was actually telling me that every year every year for the fashion show she gets so many Ahsoka designs but she's like the most pickiest with that because Ahsoka is her character. She absolutely loves it.

And when she saw mine, she was like, OK, this is the one. This is the one getting in. I don't care what all you judges say. I'm fighting for this to be in the show. And that totally made my day. Actually, like made my year, actually. I find it encouraging that Ahsoka has such a passionate fan base because the future of Star Wars is still a question mark. There's been a lot of debate at Disney about how to move forward with the franchise if they're not telling the story of the Skywalker family.

And if Ahsoka does appear in The Mandalorian, if they see the great potential in this character and not just give her an extended cameo, she could be another example of how to move forward. I mean, I remember as a kid in 1980, the marketing campaign for The Empire Strikes Back just said, The Star Wars Saga Continues. And back then, those words were thrilling. But over the years, The saga continues. It started to feel like code for, we're going to squeeze every last dollar out of this thing. It's nice to think the

saga will continue because there are still a lot of great stories left to tell. That's it for this week. Thank you for listening. Special thanks to Lauren Davis, Amy Rickow, McKenna Fellows, and Rachel Roth. My assistant producer is Stephanie Billman. You can like the show on Facebook. I tweet at emelinski at Imagine Worlds Pod. And if you really like the show, please do a shout out on social media. That always helps people discover imaginary worlds. I also put a slideshow of Ahsoka at different points in the storyline and McKenna's cosplay and Rachel Roth's Ahsoka couture dress on the Imaginary Worlds Instagram page. The best way to support Imaginary Worlds is to donate on Patreon. At different levels, you get either free Imaginary Worlds stickers, a mug, a t-shirt, or a link to a Dropbox account, which has the full length interviews of every guest

in every episode. You can learn more at imaginaryworldspodcast.org.