Imaginary Worlds - Can Villains Be Good?

Episode Date: December 12, 2019

What does it take for a villain to be redeemed? That’s not a theoretical question when that villain is Kylo Ren who may or may not be redeemed in Star Wars Episode IX. I talk with Charles Pulliam-Moore, JR Forasteros, Scott Tipton and Andrea Letamendi about some of the most and least convincing villain turnarounds, and whether we can have empathy for the devil. Part 2 of 2. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Today's episode is brought to you by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Today's episode is brought to you by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Drunk driving is a serious problem over the holidays, but a DUI covers more than just alcohol. Drugs that make you feel different will make you drive different, and that can be dangerous. Drive high, get a DUI. You're listening to Imaginary Worlds, a show about how we create them and why we suspend our disbelief i'm eric malinsky and this is the second episode in a mini-series on villains now my last episode we heard from jr forsteros he's a writer and podcaster who focuses on fantasy worlds but he is also a pastor in tex. We're a Church of the Nazarene

officially affiliated, but we say we're kind of a rock and roll church that's for folks that don't really fit in anywhere else. A few years ago, J.R. wrote a book called Empathy for the Devil, Finding Ourselves in the Villains of the Bible. The idea occurred to him on a trip to Israel. He was thinking about King Herod, and it suddenly occurred to him on a trip to Israel. He was thinking about King Herod. And it suddenly occurred to him that Herod did not see himself as a villain. He saw himself probably as a bureaucrat, stuck between the demands of the Israelites and the Romans. And so JR started to imagine that from Herod's point of view, every terrible thing that he did was actually a responsible choice on his part to keep the peace and prevent anarchy.

Like he said, I'm going to choose the lesser of two evils here. You know, yeah, some people will villainize me for it, but in his mind, he's the hero. You know, he's saving the day. But J.R. didn't stop at human tyrants. He tried to understand the biggest bad of all, the devil. tried to understand the biggest bad of all, the devil. If you go through what the Bible actually says about this figure, it seems as though he was more or less like a divine prosecuting attorney whose job it was to go around and record the wickedness of humanity and then prosecute them before the heavenly court. And I tried to put myself in the position of someone

who has to face like the worst evils of humanity all of the time, like that's their job. And to see that like there is an evil, there is a stain that deserves punishment. Wow, I'm imagining his three-piece suit too. Yeah, that's it, right? That's, and that's, I wanted, you know, I wanted as you're reading his story, I wanted you to sort of feel that same righteous indignation.

The devil is the original villain in Western culture. And his depictions over time have influenced almost every villain in every fantasy world from Lord of the Rings to Star Wars. And J.R. doesn't see any of those villains as being purely evil. I'm always rooting for redemption. Really? Yeah, yeah, I guess I'm a romantic at heart. And I think it's an interesting thought experiment to ask the question, what would it take for this character to become good? And for me, that's a different question from letting, again, letting them off the hook. I think we can see someone transformed and still be punished for their crimes.

Turning a villain into a hero or even an antihero is not easy. I mean, it's been done a lot. It's just not always done well. And the reason why I'm thinking about this is because we are a week away from Star Wars Episode 9, Rise of Skywalker. And I know that many fans are rooting for Kylo Ren to be redeemed. And I'm not sure he can be. So what works best in redeeming villains? Who is redeemable and who isn't? And what role do the heroes play in their redemption? We will get into that and a lot more after the break.

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universe and the lives of the people who inhabit it. The story takes place as the city braces for its first encounter with Galactus, but it's an audio drama that follows a journalist, student, and photographer's mission to unravel a super-powered conspiracy. If you want to give Marvels a shot, just go to stitcherpremium.com and sign up with the code IMAGINARY. You'll get a free month's trial of Stitcher Premium, which will let you listen to Marvels right now. That's stitcherpremium.com with the promo code imaginary. Thanks. So before we go any further, heads up, this episode is full of spoilers. So whenever I

mention a movie or a TV show, you can assume I'm going to discuss the plot details. So listen accordingly. Now, when I was talking to J the plot details. So listen accordingly. Now, when I was talking to J.R. Forsteros, I asked him if there were any villain redemptions that did not ring true for him. And he did not hesitate for a second. He said Loki. And he was referring specifically to the Marvel Cinematic Universe version of Loki. Loki is a terrorist and a mass murderer. Like he's in jail in Thor 2, but then they just let him out. And then it's just like, well, Loki's out. Okay. And we never hear a body count, I think, from the original Avengers movie, but I'm assuming more than one person died.

And yet there's never any sense that Loki is, again, is held accountable for that. But we're meant to think like, well, he's just misunderstood. And I think to myself, who cares if he's misunderstood? Like, look what he did. That's so interesting because there's even that line on Thor Ragnarok at the end where he says, you know, they didn't really like me so much on Earth. And Thor is like, eh, look at over it. Yeah. And I'm like, wait a second.

Do you really think it's a good idea to go back to Earth? Yes, of course. People of Earth love me. I'm very popular. Let me rephrase that. Do you really think it's a good idea to bring me back to Earth? Probably not, to be honest. I wouldn't worry, brother.

I feel like everything's going to work out fine. Well, why do you think that is why do you think they gave him such a soft buyback because tom hiddleston is insanely charismatic we like the drama that goes on between thor and loki we like loki's constant betrayal but it's because at the end of the day he wants to be loved but can't trust that anyone really loves him like that all feels interesting and good to us. And so I think we're willing to suspend our disbelief about all of that other stuff. For redemption to work, the audience needs to see something relatable in the villain. Because we make mistakes, we're flawed. So when we see villains that embody those flaws,

we identify with them on some level. And that helps us see an opening for redemption. But there's also the question of motivation. In my last episode, I talked about evil plans that began with good intentions. But I think the most effective redemptions come from villains who are just hurt. I mean, they're victims of injustice or horrible luck. And frankly, they need to see a psychologist. So I decided to talk with one. Andrea Ledemendy is a therapist and co-host of the podcast, The Arkham Sessions. I asked her when she decided to apply her skills to fictional characters.

It was actually the other way around for me, where comic book characters and superheroes and fictional narratives within the sci-fi fantasy and similar genres were essentially a passion of mine growing up. And I think it was comic books that brought me into psychology to begin with. Now, her podcast is called The Arkham Sessions because Batman, the animated series, is her big inspiration. It was her favorite show as a kid. And that show added so many new layers to these classic villains. Like Mr. Freeze, who used to be a guy with an ice ray gun. But in the show, he became a victim of people who meddled in his experiments

as he was trying to save his dying wife. Tonight I mean to pay back the man who ruined my life. Our lives. Even if you have to kill everyone in the building to do it think of it batman to never again walk on a summer's day with a hot wind in your face and a warm hand to hold oh yes i'd kill for that. to be antisocial and to commit crimes and to feel unwanted and to simply be against the grain of society. And Batman's mission is to push them into conformity and be either incarcerated or integrated into society. And he's given them chances to do both. And so on our show, we really kind of drill that down and talk about which of these characters have a

chance, what do they need to have a chance, and which of these characters struggle with this. And it comes down to the supports that they have around them. It comes down to their ability to be flexible in the way they think, their ideology. It comes down to their trauma. And one of the things that makes the Batman villains so fascinating is that Batman himself is really part of their support system. Almost like he's the hand of Arkham Asylum, trying to guide the villains back into treatment. Harvey, please, let me help you.

You? You saw what was happening? You knew something was terribly wrong with me? I thought you were my friend. You knew something was terribly wrong with me. I thought you were my friend. You should have been able to help me, but you didn't. Now look at me! But I tried, Harvey. But there's a difference between a lost soul, like Harvey Two-Face Dent, versus the Joker, who enjoys the suffering of his victims. For a redemption to work, we have to feel like the villain is not entirely in control of our actions. Charles Pulliam Moore writes for io9 and Gizmodo, and he was also deeply moved by a villain

redemption that he watched as a kid. In this case, it was from the Power Rangers, where there was an evil Green Ranger named Tommy Oliver, but it turns out Power Rangers, where there was an evil green ranger named Tommy Oliver. But it turns out he was actually being manipulated by an even bigger villain called Rita Repulsa. And even after the Rangers are eventually able to make him one of theirs, he still sort of has these relapses where Rita is able to exert her, you know, her magical influence over him. The fact that it wasn't just this sort of like, all right, now I'm evil. Now I'm good. It was very much this like, now I'm evil. I'm kind of evil. I do kind of want to be your friend, but I can't quite get there on my own, even though I think I'm safe now. Oh, no, no, no. I've been pulled all the way back for like me as a child.

Like that like knocked me over because I wasn't used to, I wasn't used to stories being that meandering. Not in a bad way, but like, oh no, like this is going to take some time. You'll be okay, man. What have I done? What you did, you did under Rita's influence. You own the power now. Fight by our side and we can defeat Rita.

After everything that's happened? Tommy, we need you. I think, like, that's fundamentally the thing that makes us gravitate towards these stories. Because there's a level of reflection that comes from villain narratives that I don't think that you often see with heroes. But with villains, it's like, no, no, I need to think that you often see with heroes. But with villains, it's like, no, I need to understand why you're doing this. I need you to understand why you're doing this. And in your coming to that understanding, perhaps you might come around to a more heroic turn. Clearly, villain redemptions need to take time, which is a really good fit

for episodic television. When we were thinking about our favorite redemption storylines, most of them were on TV. Avatar The Last Airbender, Supernatural, The Good Place, or from one of my favorite shows, Spike on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. You honestly think I go to the end of the underworld and back to get my soul and then... You honestly think I go to the end of the underworld and back to get my soul and then... Buffy, I can barely live with what I did. It haunts me. All of it.

If you think that I would add to the body count now, you are crazy. Scott Tipton is a comic book writer, and he thinks that one of the reasons why Spike's redemption worked is because it happened organically. I mean, originally, he was supposed to be a one-season villain. But the showrunners loved the actor, James Marsters, and they noticed that he had great chemistry with the cast. The character is introduced in like early seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer as just a complete, the worst of all vampires. He's like legendary, and he's just a completely cold-blooded murderer and by the end

of that series he's become arguably like the the the second lead he's been in a relationship with with the lead for like several seasons and then they moved him over to the angel series and once again they bring him in there and all of a sudden the series has a conscience it never had before and this came from the most vicious character that was ever introduced only like six seasons before. Scott thinks that redemptions can play out in the movies, but they need several films. Like Nebula, the bitter cyborg daughter of Thanos

in Guardians of the Galaxy and The Avengers. Scott was impressed with her character arc because most of it played out in these really subtle moments. There's a moment at the beginning of Endgame that I didn't even notice until the second time I saw it, where she and Stark are playing the football on the table. And at the end, whenever they finish the game, I think that's the first time she's ever won anything. they finish the game, I think that's the first time she's ever won anything. And when he says, good game, and reaches out her hand, the way Karen Gimel plays it, it's like a completely new moment. She doesn't understand that this is what winning is like.

Because it's never happened. That was terrible. Now you have a chance to win. And you've won. Congratulations. Fair game. Good sport. You have fun? It was fun. But Andrea Ledemendy thinks there is no competition for the best villain redemption.

It's Darth Vader. There's so many people from my generation that adore Darth Vader, and I include myself. I don't think the prequels were fantastic, but I do really value and respect the idea that we have this longer story that we can sort of point to in our pop culture. I do think that's a meaningful story and is helpful for us to understand

that recovery and redemption is not overnight. It's not linear. pop culture. I do think that's a meaningful story and is helpful for us to understand that recovery and redemption is not overnight. It's not linear. It's dynamic. It's complicated. And I don't think there are a lot of stories like that. I really cherish that we have this particular character in our landscape as far as pop culture goes. as far as pop culture goes. Now, go, my son. Leave me. No, you're coming with me.

I'll not leave you here. I've got to save you. You already have. Oh, God. Now, J.R. Forresteros surprised me because, you know, he's a guy who says he's always rooting for redemptions. But he's also the first person I've talked to who didn't really buy Darth Vader's redemption. Vader gets redeemed in what, a five minute scene? And he takes his, you know, he throws his boss down the hole. He takes his helmet off. He dies.

So, like, we don't we don't see Vader stand before a galactic tribunal and face his crimes. That is such a never occurred to me. What would happen if Luke really got Vader off the Death Star, brought him down to Endor and said, hey, everyone, here's my dad. No, no, he's good now. He's good now. We just we really want to heal him. He really can't leave the suit. Because I mean, one of the questions that I think is so interesting with villain redempt at the fact that when people have wronged us, there is very often like a emotional, a mental, a material cost to that. We certainly have not then seen a movement past that to say,

by virtue of the fact that I have done these wrongs, I am now going to dedicate myself to doing these rights. Which brings me back to Kylo Ren. There was a really interesting moment in The Last Jedi when Rey thought that Ben Solo was emerging from the dark persona of Kylo Ren, but it didn't last. We can rule together and bring a new order to the galaxy. Don't do this, Ben. Please don't go this way. No, no, you're still holding on. Let go. Now, some of you may be listening to this episode after Rise of Skywalker has come out, so you know how the story ends. But being in a place of not knowing

is interesting because all storylines are possible until we see the movie. So I asked JR, what would convince him of Kylo's redemption? I think it's an interesting question. He killed his dad. He also, perhaps maybe a little bit more importantly, destroyed like seven planets with this giant space gun. So there's a lot that he has to answer for. I don't know if that means he sets up like a victim's defense fund. I mean, that would be something that would begin moving that direction, right? It might be something like investing himself in the training of whatever this new order of Jedi is going to be, whether that's the

Skywalkers or whatever. But it would have to be for me some sort of recognition that I have used my great power to create great pain. And so now I'm going to rededicate the rest of my life to significant, deep and meaningful transformation. And again, that may not be possible. People may say we want to lock them in a hole and throw away the key. Again, I like to think that redemption is possible and that a life can be turned to good and have good made out of it. But with a lot of these villain stories, again, I think probably the reason we don't get those in our stories is because that's such a harder, messier question than just, you know, are they good at the end? But some sci-fi stories have dealt with that question of how do you reintegrate a villain

back into society? And that's where the heroes have to do some hard work. I mean, one of my favorite storylines from Doctor Who is about these shape-shifting aliens called Zygons that come very close to taking over the world. And at the climax of the story, a human and a Zygon that's morphed into looking like a human have their hands on two different doomsday devices. have their hands on two different doomsday devices. And the only thing that is preventing an apocalyptic war is the doctor and Peter Capaldi's capacity to deliver fantastic speeches. Listen to me, listen.

I just, I just want you to think. Do you know what thinking is? It's just a fancy word for changing your mind. I will not change my mind. Then you will die stupid. Alternatively, you could step away from that box. You could walk right out of that door and you could stand your revolution down. No. I'm not stopping this, Doctor.

I started it. I will not stop it. You think they'll let me go after what I've done? You're all the same, you screaming kids. You know that? Look at me. I'm unforgivable. Well, here's the unforeseeable. I forgive you after all you've done. I forgive you. Forgiveness.

It's a hard pill to swallow. I mean, whenever I watch a storyline like that, I don't know if I could do it. I mean, one of the things that I struggle with is holding grudges for really minor things. I mean, nothing compared to what these villains have done. And there's this one storyline that's always stuck with me from Battlestar Galactica. Now, I'm talking about the reboot of Battlestar Galactica. Now I'm talking about the reboot of Battlestar Galactica from the early 2000s. Now in the show, most of humanity has been wiped out by Cylons, which are either big robots or androids that look human. And one of the few survivors is President Laura Roslin, played by Mary McDonnell. She is tough, no mercy. But when one of the Cylons comes to her

and tells her that a group of Cylons wants to defect to the human side, Rosalind struggles to accept them, not just in this scene, but the rest of the series. We're asking for your help here. We can't do it alone. What could possibly motivate us to trust you now? What have you got? We can't do it alone. What could possibly motivate us to trust you now? What have you got? The boxing facility resides within the Cylon Resurrection Hub.

You destroy the hub, Cylons lose their ability to download. Why would you be willing to lose your ability to resurrect? We're rebels. We can't go back. Several weeks ago, I talked with Ronald D. Moore, the showrunner for Battlestar Galactica, and I asked him what inspired that storyline. I thought that was an important theme for the show.

You know, we, as part of the long trajectory of the show, was, you know, to really present them as the worst villains imaginable who had committed a genocide against the human race and done horrible, horrible things to all of our characters and their families and find some way to reconcile and forgive by the end of it. Because it just kind of grew out of, you know, I just have this belief that on some basic level, forgiveness is the most powerful emotion in the universe.

You know, it's, it trumps even love, you know, because you love only people that you're attracted to, but you have to forgive people that you're attracted to, but you have to forgive those that you hate. And there's something about forgiveness and its power that just felt like that should be the running theme of what ultimately Galactica was trying to find its way towards. This miniseries has made me think a lot about why we need villains in genre fiction. I mean, obviously, a great hero needs to have a great adversary. You want to see your superheroes kick ass. You want to see your favorite space crew

blow the bad guys to smithereens. You want to see the good wizards duel against the dark arts. And the trope of the villain is one of the things that people can hold against genre fiction. Claiming that highbrow literature or prestige TV or high art cinema doesn't need villains because they portray everybody in shades of gray. But I think one of the reasons why genre fiction resonates is because in the real world, we see villains everywhere. It could be a person at work you can't stand

or someone in your family that undermines your confidence, or an opposing team, or politicians that you absolutely hate, not to mention the people that support them. Now, I know that for a lot of people who regret things they've done in their lives, villain redemption storylines can feel very inspiring. But what affects me personally in these story lines is the way the heroes handle themselves. Because when the villains come clean and say they're sorry,

I'm not sure I could forgive them without worrying that I'm being weak or being taken advantage of. Deciding to trust somebody who has caused harm can be a real act of heroism. caused harm can be a real act of heroism. Well, that is it for this week. Thank you for listening. Thanks again to J.R. Forsteros, Andrea Littamendi, Scott Tipton, Charles Pulliam Moore, and Ronald D. Moore. Now, there are so many other villain redemptions that we did not get a chance to discuss. What are some of your favorites? You can post on the show's Facebook page. I tweet at emolinski and Imagine Worlds Pod. My assistant producer is Stephanie Billman. And the show's website is imaginaryworldspodcast.org.