Imaginary Worlds - Class of '84: Rise of The Villains

Episode Date: January 31, 2024

This year marks the 40th anniversary of a lot of landmarks in pop culture, especially sci-fi and fantasy. So many franchises were born in 1984. Some came to define their genre or invent new genres. In this three-part mini-series, we look at how The Class of ’84 made their mark on the world. First up: the bad guys. 1984 was a great year for villains from The Terminator to Freddy Krueger to Gremlins and Ghostbusters. I talk with make-up and creature designers Neill Gorton and Shannon Shea (who worked on Terminator and Nightmare On Elm Street sequels) about why the '80s was a golden age of monsters. Criminal psychology professor Yannie ten Brooke analyzes the ’84 villains and why they scared us. And I talk with pastor and podcaster JR Forasteros about why they don’t make villains like they used to – for better and for worse. You can also find Shannon at Two Chez on Etsy. Today’s episode is sponsored by Magic Spoon and Green Chef. Go to magicspoon.com/imaginary to grab a variety pack and be sure to use our promo code IMAGINARY at checkout to save five dollars off your order. Go to greenchef.com/60imaginary and use the code 60imaginary to get 60% off, plus 20% off your next two months. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Order now. Alcohol in select markets. See app for details. You're listening to Imaginary Worlds, a show about how we create them and why we suspend our disbelief. I'm Eric Malinsky. In my elementary school, every year they'd dedicate a day to talk about nuclear war. They'd cancel classes. We'd watch a movie about Hiroshima. And then

we'd have breakout sessions with the teachers to talk about our fears. And I remember in one of those sessions, this kid said, very matter-of-factly, none of us are going to live to see our high school graduation. Everyone was quiet, even the teacher. The Cold War was so hot that year, 1984. How could it end any other way? 1984 was the first year I became totally aware of what was going on in the world. I went from 12 to 13, elementary school to junior high, and it was quite a year to have that kind of awareness. I remember there was already a lot of anticipation going into 1984 because of the novel. People actually wondered if the novel would suddenly come true, or we'd realize that Big Brother had been on our walls

all along. But instead of an Orwellian dystopia, we got a lot of fun stuff. 16 Candles, Karate Kid, Miami Vice, Purple Rain, Like a Virgin, Born in the USA. 1984 was also a huge year for science fiction and fantasy, from movies to TV shows to novels to comics to video games. So we are kicking off a miniseries about different works of sci-fi and fantasy that made their debut 40 years ago, and they're still having an impact today. And when I looked at the sci-fi and fantasy movies from 1984, right away I noticed a murderer's row of villains. In fact, four movies caught my eye. These four films were meant to be mainstream blockbusters, but they were also manifestations of our collective anxieties. So we're going to look at what each of these villains were tapping into, and why they became iconic. And that includes their design, because they're all visually striking. By the way, this episode is full of spoilers, but these movies are

so famous, I'm going to assume you probably know what they're about, even if you haven't seen them. Like, this guy needs no introduction. I'm a friend of Sarah Connor. I was told that she's here. Could I see her, please? No, can't see her. She's making a statement. Where is she? Look, it may take a while. If you want to wait, there's a bench over there.

I'll be back. J.R. Forresteros is a pastor, a podcaster, and a writer. And he covers villains a lot in his work. And he thinks it's hard to watch The Terminator now without the future in mind. Not the future War Against the Machines, but the future career of Arnold Schwarzenegger. He is so much bigger than anyone else on the screen. Bodybuilding was still a thing that resided in the realm of the professionals. You didn't have gym bros. And so there was not like a guy

down the street working out in his garage that looked like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Like no one looked like this dude. That's why he won Mr. Universe, right? Shannon Shea is a special effects designer. 40 years ago, he was trying to break into the business, which was really taking off. So when you pick 1984, you're talking about when the ship is leaving the port. I mean, you're talking about the most exciting time that it was really a magical, magical year. Shannon went to see The Terminator with some friends because he was a fan of Stan Winston,

who did special effects for the movie. And in the theater, they were geeking out about the scene where The Terminator digs out his fake human eye and we see the robot eye inside of his skull. And back then, they had to create a life-size puppet of Schwarzenegger's head. The shot where he's, the puppet's looking in the mirror, And back then, they had to create a life-size puppet of Schwarzenegger's head.

The shot where he's, the puppet's looking in the mirror, you know, and the hands come in and touch his face and then take the razor blade and start cutting the eye. I think we were all like, whoa, that's amazing. Years later, Shannon found himself working on Terminator 2. He was excited to work with one of his heroes, Stan Winston, but he was also impressed by how much James Cameron was involved in the design process. Jim Cameron, he was such an amazing artist before he became a director.

And I know that much of the Terminator design was his. In fact, I saw his drawings. The Terminator design, I think, you can see things, like you can see that in the hips and the pelvis. You can see there are these big ball joints in the pelvis that go up to what appear to be like hydraulic or pneumatic cylinders. And so it just looks like it would work. Neil Gorton is another veteran of the special effects industry, and he has a similar take on why the Terminator is a great design. It's got a logic to it.

You know, if you're going to strip away flesh, you're going to find muscle and bone. And of course, it's a robot from the future. So it's going to be a chrome bone. In fact, he says, think about this arc, visually speaking. The first time we see the Terminator, it's Schwarzenegger in the nude. Nice night for a walk. You are getting more of those one-liners and, you know, little looks and even the fight just to get the jacket and the clothes. That alone is funny.

Your clothes. Give them to me. Now. And then halfway through, we get that scene where he digs out his eye and we get a peek at the robot underneath. By the final battle, he is now an animated robot skeleton that moves like Arnold Schwarzenegger. It's a great kind of slow reveal. You know, you're getting little bits,

little bits, little bits, and it's building up. But by the end, it is pure horror because it is the relentlessness of it and the fact that it's so alien by that point. Any connection you felt with it or fun you had with that character is gone by that point. But even before the full robot is revealed underneath his skin, there are elements of the human-looking Terminator that are still disturbing.

Yanni Tenbrook is a professor of criminal psychology, and she is fascinated by the psychology of villains. And she likes to figure out where they would fit on something called the dark triad. Which is psychopathy and Machiavellianism and narcissism. And she thinks the Terminator in his human form bears a striking resemblance to people with psychopathy, or as they're more commonly known, psychopaths. One of the most recognizable traits in them is that they lack empathy. They can't see the world from other people's perspectives.

They can't feel things other people feel, not at a cognitive level or a thought level or a physical level. So when you have a character like the Terminator who is devoid of that basic biological reflex we have to feel other people's pain, it's very notable. It's very obvious. He doesn't have a capacity for things like compassion or empathy because it wasn't programmed into him, at least

in the first movie. There are many scenes of the Terminator shooting people in cold blood, and we get a glimpse of the world after a nuclear holocaust. But the scene that really disturbed JR was a scene where an artificial intelligence that looks human stands in a phone booth and memorizes a paper phone book while the analog phone is dangling from the receiver. And you just get this sense that, you know, you know he doesn't need to sleep. So it doesn't matter if there's 8,000 Sarah Connors in the metro area. Like, he's just going to one by one look each one up and go to their house.

And he's not afraid of the police finding a pattern and, you know, NCSI figuring some stuff out. Like, there's no appealing to his emotion because he doesn't have any. And I think that's terrifying. Today, people are creating artificial intelligence that's meant to mimic humans in the form of chatbots, robots, image generators. I think that's why that scene 40 years later is more chilling than ever. Back in 1984, I used to love having sugary cereals for breakfast. There was an E.T. cereal, a C-3PO cereal, a Donkey Kong Jr. cereal.

That was one of the best parts of being a kid. But as I got older, I had to watch out for sugar and empty carbs. Magic Spoon has great flavors that you'll love, but with high protein and a lot less sugar. Their variety pack comes in four flavors, cocoa, fruity, frosted, and peanut butter. It tastes like the cereals that I liked as a kid. Their fruity flavor is so tasty and crunchy. I'm like, how is this not full of sugar? Well, their variety pack has zero grams of sugar, along with 13 to 14 grams of protein and four to five grams of net carbs.

Only 140 calories per serving. It's high protein, keto-friendly, gluten-free, grain-free, and soy-free. Go to magicspoon.com slash imaginary to grab a variety pack and try-free. Go to magicspoon.com slash imaginary to grab a variety pack and try it today. And be sure to use our promo code imaginary at checkout to save $5 off your order. Magic Spoon is so confident in their product,

it's backed with 100% happiness guarantee. So if you don't like it for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember, start the new year off right with a delicious bowl of high-protein cereal at magicspoon.com slash imaginary and use the code imaginary to save $5 off. When we mentally project ourselves back 40 years ago, it's hard to imagine how groundbreaking Steven Spielberg and George Lucas were. I mean, they were like rock stars to me as a kid. Neil Gorton says a lot of adults felt the same way,

not to mention filmmakers who were trying to copy their style. Suddenly, in the 80s, you got the permission to be a kid again. You know, everything before then was much more, especially in film, it was much more highbrow. And, you know, the science fiction was things like 2001 and Silent Running, you know, films with a serious message. And then suddenly you can be an adult going to see a kid's film. You're allowed to enjoy it. And yeah, you know, we just got more childish in the 80s. A perfect example is Gremlins. Steven Spielberg presents Gremlins.

When I first saw that trailer, I was cynical. Steven Spielberg Presents? Ugh, he didn't direct this. But Gremlins, which was directed by Joe Dante, is a lot weirder and darker than a lot of people expected. And it has a lot more to say than I realized at the time. It's also the movie whose longevity has surprised me the most. I was recently in a comic book store, and they're still selling Gremlins toys.

And most important, no matter how much they beg, never, never let them eat after midnight. Neil loves the design of the Gremlins and the Mogwai, the cute furry creatures that the Gremlins evolved or devolved from. the cute furry creatures that the gremlins evolved or devolved from. And it looks like what would you get if you took that cute thing with the big ears and shaved it off? You know, you'd still be left with these big fleshy ears. I think those big ears and big eyes on the gremlins make them seem weirdly cute. And the fact that the gremlins are only about two feet tall, they're just disarming

enough to make you let down your guard for an instant. And as I learned from my days in animation, when you're designing a character, it's really important that it reads in silhouette. And Shannon says when you look at the outline of a gremlin, hunched over with its talons for hands and grinning fangs, it just looks mean and mischievous. You show someone a gremlin, they know exactly what it is by the silhouette. And let's face it, they use the silhouettes in the movies many times. You see them behind screens, giggling and laughing and all that stuff. So yeah, I think the silhouette is really, really important to really iconic creature design.

Gremlins are also really malleable, like Funko Pops. You can dress them up as anything. JR watched the movie again recently, and he was struck by... How readily the gremlins understood human culture. I mean, literally, they eat after midnight they hatch the next morning and then they are playing poker they are ordering different liquors at the bar they are singing christmas carols in harmony they are rewiring electronics so i think the bar scene is a great example. You're looking around this bar, and they are just having the time of their life.

One is swinging from the ceiling fan. They're all getting drunk. They're playing cards. There's like a jazz gremlin somehow, right? And the bar is getting destroyed in the process. But again, not intentionally. It's clear they're not there to burn the bar down. They're not there trashing it.

they're not there to burn the bar down. They're not there trashing it. They're just using it for their pleasure in a way that it is going to render it uninhabitable even by the next day. I asked Yanni to analyze the behavior of the gremlins. I thought she'd say they embody psychopathy because they don't care about the effects of their actions. She says not exactly. the effects of their actions. She says not exactly. Psychopaths do not hang out with and do their things with other psychopaths. There are cases of that, but they are few and far between. What it really is in a weird way is if they represent, you know, growing up, like so going from this cute, fuzzy, docile, easy to control, eager to please, fluffy little baby-like with big wide eyes creature. They transform into this reckless, you know, spawn that are just hell-bent on destruction and fun. It's not necessarily psychopathic. It is developmentally appropriate

if they were young teens because it is completely developmentally appropriate for teenagers to care more about the opinions of their peers. They don't conceive of consequences for their actions. You know, they physically transform from this doughy, soft thing into these kind of bony, potentially, you know, smelly, strange looking, gangly hellbent on fun destruction. But they also seem to embody another aspect of teenagers and the developmental phase, which is their propensity for things like groupthink, like things that are terrible ideas when you're alone and you would never, ever do them. All of a sudden, if you're in a big enthusiastic pack of people whose recognition and esteem you want, it sounds like a great idea. Teens Gone Wild definitely checks a box of anxiety in the 1980s. The lead gremlin has a mohawk. Although there are actually a lot of theories out there about what the gremlins could symbolize. In fact, J.R. wonders if the gremlins are the real villains of the movie.

I mean, yes, they kill people. But some of those people had it coming. Like Mrs. Deagle, the richest person in town. Most of the gremlins even have these moments of playfulness and hilarity. Mrs. Deagle does not. Like, all she does is kick people out of their homes on Christmas and threaten to kill the main character's dog. She is just rotten. I'll take him to the kennel.

They'll put him to sleep. It'll be quick and painless compared to what i could do to him i think a film set at christmas time that opens with such a strong picture of how the wealthy harm the less wealthy and then you get into these monsters that are basically just having a blast, using anything they want, as they want it, when they want it, becomes a really sharp critique of that same kind of rampant consumerism. I recently discovered there's actually a lot of critical analysis of Gremlins which says exactly that. The Cold War wasn't just about nuclear weapons. It was a battle of

ideologies, capitalism versus communism. The sneakiest, most mischievous thing about Gremlins is that it's actually a biting social satire. I mean, the sequel basically takes place in Trump Tower with a parody of Donald Trump, who has his own version of the art of the deal. with a parody of Donald Trump, who has his own version of the art of the deal. I hope you enjoyed today's tour. And don't forget, pick up your copy of Mr. Clamp's best-selling book, I Took Manhattan, on sale right here at our newsstand for only $19.95. And Yanni says there's another villain in 1984 from a different movie,

who could be seen as representing the dangers of capitalism, although we may not think of him that way. Dan Aykroyd didn't. I tried to think of the most harmless thing, something I loved from my childhood, something that could never, ever possibly destroy us. Mr. Stay Puft. The Dan Aykroyd character says, I wanted to think about the most harmless thing I possibly could.

That character says, I wanted to think about the most harmless thing I possibly could. You know, and he thinks about a sub-brand from some kind of major food producer. That is certainly something that is not harmless. Ghostbusters has a lot of memorable villains, beyond a giant man made of high fructose corn syrup. In fact, I just learned recently that the gargoyles which come to life are called terror dogs. Okay, who brought the dogs? And Neil says once again, the design of the terror dogs

works really well in silhouette. It's clear and simple. You've got a gargoyle on top of a New York building. Well, they're fairly, you know, the gargoyles are very classical things, you know. So let's make it fleshy. It's straightforward. It gets confusing if you get presented

as something that really is just too left field. Except for the final villain, Gozer, the one who's actually in charge. Again, here's Shannon. Here you are at the end of the film. We've seen terror dogs. We've seen Slimer. You've seen the ghost come out of the subway.

You've seen the corpse driving the taxi down the street. What could Gozer be? It's a girl. It's Gozer. I thought Gozer was a man. It's whatever it wants to be. Gozer could have been, what does Ernie's character say? Some moldy Babylonian god?

You're expecting a moldy Babylonian god and you get 1980s rock and roll MTV star? And she's got her costume with all that kind of like bubbles and stuff on it? And she's wearing like stiletto heels? Gozer made a big impression on me in 1984. And I may be the only one because everybody I talked to was baffled that I wanted to focus on Gozer. The Terror Dogs, Slimer, the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man.

Everybody remembers them. And then JR turned the question around on me and asked why. And as we were talking, I realized I went to see Ghostbusters with a bunch of guys from my class. And in the movie, the Ghostbusters act like overgrown boys, for better and for worse. And that summer, my friends and I were about to go into junior high. I think to me, Gozer was like a tall, stylish, eighth grade girl who would see us in the hallway

and cut us down with a single remark. You know that she's going to eat you like one way or another, right? She's going to embarrass you, but even if she said,

let's go out on a date, it would not end well for you. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It would be a setup to humiliate you. You know, like it's a trick question. Are you a god? It's like, uh, no. You know, like, it's a trick question. Are you a god?

It's like, no. And you're like, damn it. Wrong answer. Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say yes. Ghostbusters is not really scary, but it does make you feel uncomfortable in the way that it blends comedy with horror. In fact, all the movies that we're talking about blend comedy with horror. Because I think comedy and horror, the reason we get so many horror comedies or comedy horrors, is because the two genres kind of do the same thing, right?

They disrupt our norms. The norm of 1984 is that while we were in the theater laughing at Ghostbusters, we could have all been vaporized before the movie was over. That was always in the back of my mind. And I know people had the same thoughts in 1954

and 1964, but after 30-something years of this existential dread, by that point it had become existential comedy. It does things to our psyche, right? And I think these movies reflected that. When you're in a bad place, you don't want to hold a mirror up to yourself and look at that.

So make me laugh. Make me forget about it in a way that, ironically, then I can't quit thinking about. There is a new Ghostbusters movie coming out in March, Ghostbusters Frozen Empire. It has original cast members along with newer characters. And I don't think it's a coincidence that the movie is going to use supernatural elements

to deal with climate change. After chasing gremlins and ghosts around, I'm starting to work up an appetite. Luckily, I got a great meal from Green Chef. Today we're making pea stew chicken, couscous, and roasted vegetables. Green Chef has wholesome foods that don't just fill you up and satisfy your hunger. They support a healthier lifestyle. You'll feel good with every bite. Their meals feature organic produce, cage-free eggs, and sustainably sourced seafood.

All their recipes are crafted by chefs and approved by nutritionists. Their Green Market is a one-stop shop for high-quality curated goods. You can choose from grab-and-go breakfasts, brunch kits, 10-minute lunches, ready-to-eat snacks, and more. Green Chef is also now owned by HelloFresh, so they have a wider variety of meals to choose from. And, as you know from previous episodes, I'm a fan of HelloFresh. Green Chef is just as easy, efficient, and tasty. Go to greenchef.com slash 60imaginary and use the code 60imaginary to get 60% off plus 20% off your next two months. Green Chef, the number one meal kit for eating well. Our final villain also needs no introduction. He haunts your dreams. He's the star of movies,

TV shows, and MTV videos. Yanni says in the 80s, her mother was a preschool teacher. And the kids who she taught, they would all know who Freddy Krueger was, and they thought he was just great, you know? there's something about him that's toy-like. He is another great design. Shannon worked on one of the later Nightmare on Elm Street movies, and he says the special effects team felt so much creative freedom because of the premise that Freddy Krueger exists in your dreams. Every movie, they tried to top what they did before. I mean, from a guy wearing prosthetics to a giant snake.

I mean, we were building crazy stuff. There were people building Freddy bikes. There was a big Freddy Krueger motorcycle and all this stuff. It just, everything kept building, kept building. This boy feels the need for speed. One thing that stayed fairly consistent was the makeup on Freddie's face. Shannon admired the work of the original makeup designer,

Dave Miller. There's something about that makeup with the way that the burns looked, that there's something kind of makeup with the way that the burns looked that there's something kind of rough and raw about it. You know, Freddie becomes a little more stylized as he moves along. In some ways he gets, I don't wanna say cleaner, but like the sculpting is clean. Where Dave's is kind of like, there's something about it that just looks like torn, burned

flesh. The blades on the hand, that became iconic. You know, I mean, it was genius. And I think that came from Wes Craven, I believe. Yep. In fact, Wes Craven has said that his pet cat was one of the inspirations for the razor blades on Freddie's gloves. But there are other elements of his costume that are a little odd. Like, why is he wearing a fedora?

And why a green and red sweater? You know, you wear sweaters when you're cold. But, you know, Freddy Krueger, like, why is he wearing a sweater? I guess it just hides all those souls in his chest or whatever the heck it is. It's just weird. There's something just, you know, just kind of visually disturbing about this kind of dirty sweater. That, yeah, you know, if it was bright green and red, you know, it'd be like, ooh, Christmas time, you know. And the fedora, and I don't know if that is a purposeful link to, say, like, Indiana Jones, who really, like like owned the fedora right that was his thing his

fedora his whip there it is but now you have Freddy Krueger wearing a fedora and his fedora is kind of dirty and beat up looking so it's kind of like a soiling of this kind of iconic or pure thing and Neil says when it comes to the silhouette of Freddy Krueger as a character, we can't forget the performance of Robert Englund and his body language. If you look, he nearly always kind of drops the shoulder, you know, hangs that back.

So there's a very kind of nonchalance to him, even though he's doing these killing or, you know, and he's setting things up and he's playing games, you know? There was an arms race of slasher films in the 80s. Michael Myers in the Halloween franchise, Jason Voorhees in the

Friday the 13th movies. J.R. says they were silent killers. But Freddie? He talks. I mean, he is he is a chatty Cathy. Like you get the sense that that Michael and Jason, there are there are reasons ascribed to their motivations, but no one ever interviews them. No one ever talks to them. They don't speak. Right. There's almost these like mindless killing machines. Freddy is not. He taunts his victims. He plays with them. And because he exists in dreams, he stages these elaborate set pieces for deaths. You again get the sense that it's not about the

kill for him. It's about the performance. In fact, looking at this character, I find it amazing how campy he is compared to modern villains. And he wasn't shrouded in mystery. I mean, he hosted his own TV show in the 80s. Hey, you. Yeah, I'm talking to you. Get over here. You could call his 1-900 number just to hear him talk. Now, earlier, I mentioned the dark triad of criminal psychology,

which is narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy. And when it comes to Freddy Krueger, Yanni says, he clearly has all three. He hits the dark trifecta. That's why he's so compelling and repulsive. Evil has always had a sexy problem because people who are not evil have always looked at people who do whatever they want with some admiration or some fascination. Everybody, to a certain extent, often feels that they would rather have more of these traits. I'd rather be more confident. I'd rather have less doubt. I'd rather have more fun. I'd rather have less doubt. I'd rather have more fun. I think Freddy Krueger is tapping into another anxiety in the 1980s. Stranger danger. Gen Xers were free range kids with keys to get in the house when our parents were gone.

It was great feeling independent, fending for ourselves. At the same time, there were pictures of missing children on our milk cartons. And there were tons of public service announcements about not getting into cars with strangers. But Yanni thinks. The best villain is somebody who you don't see coming. You know, it's somebody who, you know, you let in, you give a certain amount of closeness to, and then when it's too late, that's when they reveal themselves. The impossibility of escape for things like Freddy Krueger and things like that, Nightmare on Elm Street, the impossibility of escape comes from sort of a supernatural contingent. That kind of supernaturalness is something that is easier for us to dismiss as not being real.

You know, as you were talking, I just flashed on, I think this is actually in a way the perfect ending of the 80s. 1991, Silence of the Lambs. Jodie Foster, she goes down to murderer's row. And, you know, you see like all these really scary looking guys like, you know, they're all like any any of them could be like Freddy Krueger. And then at the end, it's like, you know, it's Anthony Hopkins. Polite gentleman. Morning. I feel like that was maybe the true that moment, that scene, the 80s villain was over. A hundred percent.

that moment, that scene, the 80s villain was over. A hundred percent. Someone like that who people would actually not just not necessarily see coming, but somebody who they would invite into their most intimate space, which is your mind. Freddy Krueger, certainly under any circumstances, you would not let in. Yeah. I mean, I feel like in many ways we've made the argument why these villains should stay in the 80s but is there anything uh that you kind of miss you're like you know but one thing those those 84 villains had villains they just don't have whatever i don't know i like a good slasher flick. I really do. Characters now, you know, there's a hyper-realism trend and things like that that sort of precludes a lot of that supernaturalness. But the problem is, is I haven't seen anything really original in that vein for a very long time.

long time. Today, villains tend to go in one direction or the other. They're either more realistic in their appearance and methods, or they're completely CGI and fantastical. And they're not purely evil either. A lot of them have sympathetic backstories, or they had noble goals that went awry. JR has noticed those. You know, in the wake of Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad and the age of the anti-hero, you can't have a villain that is just purely evil. I mean, honestly, unless you do something like the Dark Knight's Joker. But after we saw Heath Ledger's Joker, we got Joaquin Phoenix's Joker, who starts out as a well-meaning character that is abused in a cruel and uncaring world. The villains of 84 were bad to the bone. You know, honestly, when I would look at someone like the Terminator or Freddy, I almost think of them more as a monster than a villain.

I think especially the Terminator, I'll just use him because I think he's such a good example. He functions more like the shark in Jaws than a Walter White character or even a Loki. But I feel like it's interesting what you're saying because yes, when you think about it, all of them are monsters by that definition. And yet today But I feel like it's interesting what you're saying because, yes, when you think about it, all of them are monsters by that definition. And yet today, I feel like monster immediately is sad, you know, sympathetic.

No, it's Dr. Frankenstein is the real villain. The monster was misunderstood. You know, it's like now or in the shape of water. You know, I feel like now in the Tim Burton, Guillermo del Toro world of genre, monsters immediately have to be seen as sympathetic. You're right. I think that that is a reflection of the desire to, again,

I think rightfully critique our rush to demonize. But I do think a monster story is a different kind of, pardon the pun, beast than a story with a villain in it. There was something really refreshing about the conflict and the drama coming from, can we come together to defeat this? Not, can we understand that thing and work together with it? Because I think something like climate change, right? That is not a villain we can negotiate with.

That is a thing that we have to come together to work against to stop. If only climate change had a cool costume and great quips. That is it for this week. Thank you for listening. Special thanks to Shannon Shea, Neil Gorton, Yanni Tenbrook, and J.R. Forresteros. You can hear more of J.R. in a two-part episode that we did in 2019 about why villains today are more nuanced. Those episodes are My So-Called Evil Plan and Can Villains Be Good? And if you'd like to hear more

from neil gorton i interviewed him in 2020 about his career as a creature makeup designer my assistant producer is stephanie billman if you like the show please give us a shout out on social media or leave a nice review wherever you get your podcasts that helps people discover imaginary worlds the best way to support imaginary worlds is to donate on patreon at different levels you get either free imaginary world stickers a mug a t-shirt and a link to a dropbox account which has the full-length interviews of every guest in every episode you can also get access to an ad-free version of the show through patreon or you can buy an ad-free subscription on apple podcasts you can subscribe to the show through Patreon, or you can buy an ad-free subscription on Apple Podcasts.

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