Imaginary Worlds - Doug Jones: Shapeshifter

Episode Date: August 20, 2020

You've probably seen Doug Jones many times without realizing it because he is best known as a creature performer. You may have been moved by his performance as Saru in Star Trek: Discovery, captivated by his portrayal of The Amphibian Man in The Shape of Water or amazed by his dual roles as The Faun and The Pale Man in Pan’s Labyrinth. He is the Lon Chaney or Boris Karloff of our time. We talk with Doug Jones about how he got started, his approach to embodying an incredible array of non-human characters, and how he and director Guillermo del Toro developed a shorthand style of communication over six films.    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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our disbelief. I'm Eric Malinsky, and joining me is my assistant producer, Stephanie Billman. Hey, hey. Hey. So today's episode, we talked with probably one of the most famous actors that our listeners have seen without realizing they've seen him, Doug Jones, who is one of the top creature performers. top creature performers. And by creature performer, I mean a person who's inside a monster or some kind of other creature costume or makeup, bringing that character to life through their physicality. So do you remember when you first started to notice Doug Jones? I mean, I was consuming his performances way before I realized who he was. I mean,

you know, the Mac Tonight guy from the McDonald's commercials, I think like in the late 80s, early 90s. Yeah, that was the like half moon guy that the McDonald's commercials, I think like in the late 80s, early 90s. Yeah, that was the like Half Moon guy that was playing the piano. Like he's like a jazz lounge guy. Exactly. Yeah. And they kind of had Jay Leno's chin. I fell sick to bed. Time to hit the floor.

And then, you know, he was he was Billy the zombie in Hocus Pocus, which, you know, I loved. I watched every Halloween. I had no idea these two were the same people. You buck-toothed, hop-ride, firefly from hell! Ah!

Well, it's funny. I was also thinking, you know, you and I have been really excited about this interview. And it was actually, it took a long time to actually finally get a hold of him. For people who may be listening

and thinking, okay, so he plays a lot of monsters and aliens? Like, why are we so excited about Doug Jones? You know, there's always that actor that he just completely disappears into a role. And that's what I find fascinating. It's like, what type of person is able to basically kind of be like a chameleon to some extent and how does that person approach each performance and and how are they able to just completely let like even every iota of themselves go and just completely accept and absorb a character because if you think about it even to some extent like if you you watch a harrison ford movies there's still going to be

like a little bit of harrison ward's little swagger in there. But like Doug Jones just is invisible when it comes to these roles. And I find that fascinating. Yeah. And on top of that, the fact that like he has so little dialogue in these movies or shows, but he's become famous for doing this. I mean, he's become like the Lon Chaney or the Boris Karloff of our time. Like, I also find that really fascinating. Mm-hmm. So here's the interview that Stephanie and I did with Doug Jones. Doug Jones grew up in Indiana. When he was in college, he trained to be a mime. He was also a contortionist.

But when he decided to become an actor, he wasn't thinking about sci-fi fantasy creatures. He was just hoping to get a minor comedy role. It wasn't until I moved out to Los Angeles and started my acting career thinking that I was going to be a goofy sidekick on a sitcom or do funny things in commercials, which I did do. But I also had no idea that the mime background on my resume and my flexible legs that I could put contortionist on my resume. I had no idea that that, coupled with being 6'3.5 and 140 pounds, would be a tall, lanky, movable palette that Creature Effects people would love to build things on.

I had no idea that that was a thing. He does have an unusually lanky body with a very sculpted face. I can totally see why creature makeup artists thought of him as a great canvas to work on. They also found him incredibly easy to work with. Well, you know, actors, we all have a reputation for being divas and being like, you know, this is, I'm so hot. This is uncomfortable. Can you change that? Whatever. So you put an actor in a five-hour makeup application and discomfort for the rest of the day and I can't go to the craft service table or getting a drink of water is problematic or takes a village of people to get me squared away. Going to the bathroom is out of the question until a certain time when they can take a hand off and I

can get to my flap that's built in or not. So you put most actors in a situation like that, you're going to hear complaining and rightfully so. There's always a time to say to look out for yourself. But I've had a work ethic from the very beginning that if I say yes to a role, I'm saying yes to all of those discomforts and all of those challenges that come with crazy makeups. So to complain is just is kind of futile. If anything, I will gently tell the team around me from the Creature Effects shop, ooh, something's poking me in the neck. Is there any way we can get? I think it's drawing blood. So that goes a long way because as my career has built over the years,

most of the jobs I've gotten and most of the offers I get for the next movie or the next TV show is from the creature effects world referring me. One of the first times that I noticed Doug Jones without realizing who he was, was when he played arguably the scariest villain on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. He was the leader of a group of demons called the Gentlemen. This is an episode that Joss Whedon wrote and directed. And it's a pretty famous episode because there's almost no dialogue. The gentlemen stole everyone's voices. And they're ghoulishly white with hideous metal teeth. And they dress sharply like undertakers. Originally, the actors were going to have broad smiles glued onto them. And some of the gentlemen in the background did. But Doug and another actor named Camden Toy had such creepy smiles in their auditions.

The makeup artists decided to use their real faces with metallic teeth. Camden and I had to hold that smile. You know how you're at a wedding and your face starts getting twitchy when you've been smiling for photos? Yeah. We did that for two weeks. But what made the gentlemen exceedingly creepy was that they were so polite to each other while doing horrible things to everybody else. So I think one of the most disturbing moments in that episode for me to watch is when we are going down the hallway of the dormitory. We end up finding the perfect room.

We knock on the door, and this college kid answers the door. Basically, our goons on the ground yank him by the elbows back to his bed, pin him down, and then we kind of float in gently and open the doctor bag and pull out the instruments. Oh, no, you first. Oh, how about you first? That was our nonverbal dialogue that Camden and I would talk about ahead of time is, oh, no, you first. Oh, no, please, you. It's interesting that he was getting noticed for playing a character who stole people's voices because the struggle to have a voice himself would soon become an issue

in his career. In 2007, he played the Silver Surfer in a Fantastic Four movie. And in the movie, the Silver Surfer looks like he's CG, but Doug was on set wearing a full-body, metallic, skin-tight suit. And when he did his deep research into the role, he became very moved by the Silver Surfer's tragic backstory and stoicism, and he felt very attached to this character. But when filming was done, he learned that his voice would be dubbed over by Lawrence Fishburne. Why are you destroying our planet? I have no choice.

That was a bit of a sore spot. Love Lawrence Fishburne. I think he's a brilliant actor. So his voice was lovely. But I think mine was too. And you know, when you are an actor, you know, I don't think any actor wants to see half their performance removed or replaced. And I wish you could have heard the original track

because I did all of the on-set voicing. I was playing the part on set as any other actor would do with my co-stars. Then in post-production, I came in and did, I laid down all my dialogue in ADR, voice looping session, to clean it up. And we did two runs of it. We did one where I spoke in my superhero voice down here.

And then I did another run of the same dialogue with a whisper here. So when you ran the two together, it was really, oh, it was goose bumpy good. So I'm sorry you in the public did not get to hear that. Doug was also dubbed over by David Hyde Pierce when Doug played the intellectual fish man Abe Sapien in the first Hellboy movie. And again, David Hyde Pierce,

brilliant actor, love him, absolutely love him. But again, but it was painful to see my work, my voice replaced. And it was basically a studio, I asked, was this a performance issue or was it a studio decision? And it was more of a studio decision to tie a bigger name to that role when I was more of unknown then. But he did get his voice on screen for the sequel, Hellboy 2, The Golden Army. She's, she's like me. A creature from another world. You need to get out more. Today, he has enough clout in the industry that he can put in his contract

that if he's playing a character who speaks English, his voice cannot be dubbed over. And he has done non-English speaking roles. In Pan's Labyrinth, he played the Pale Man, which was a creature whose eyes are in the palm of his hands. He also played a much bigger role in the movie, the mysterious Fawn, who looks like he was made out of tree bark. Doug learned Spanish to speak his lines, but he was happy that they used a Spanish actor to dub over him, so that actor could bring out the nuances in the language. Who are you?

Me? No, me. I've had so many names. Old names. The director of Pan's Labyrinth and the Hellboy movies was Guillermo del Toro. Doug has worked with him in six movies. And Doug will often play multiple roles in those films. There is a long history of directors finding their muses in actors, like Robert De Niro and Martin Scorsese, Johnny Depp and Tim Burton, David Lynch and Kyle MacLachlan. But the pairing of a director and a creature performer, that's unusual.

And that's what made Doug's career take off. They also have great on-set shorthand communication. The shorthand, he knows with me personally, he knows that if he can make me chuckle, whatever he's saying will sink in better. Hellboy 2, The Golden Army, it was a scene that he couldn't cut away from. It was going to be a visual moment

where the camera was on a track circling around me. I had to do a bunch of business with my hands and some props. And he had to get it all completed in one swoop of the camera with no editing options. So I'm going through all of this, this action. And then all I heard after take one was, God, Dougie, you're boring me to tears. And so, of course, I doubled over laughing and said, all right, I got to take two. I mean, come on. So, but not every director would know to say those words to me.

Sometimes Guillermo del Toro doesn't have to use any words. Like in that movie, Hellboy 2, Doug also played a flabby demon called the Chamberlain. And Guillermo just with, he said, Dougie, when you play the Chamberlain. And Guillermo just, he said, Dougie, when you play the Chamberlain, I just want to give him sort of a... He swooped his fingers inward into a clasp in front of his collarbones

and he said, ew. And I was like, got it. And we never talked about it again. Doug is not the only creature performer that Guillermo del Toro works with. Del Toro often works with another actor named Brian Steele. He's my height, but much more muscly. And he is a powerhouse. And he can channel like those animal, visceral, intimidating, dangerous characters. And Guillermo said that's, he goes to Brian for those.

And those are suits that also weigh 150 pounds on top of you, what you already weigh. And he said, but he comes to me for the more genteel, artistically poised characters. So he just kind of creates to our specialty. The fact that Guillermo del Toro, kind of like, as you said, plays to each actor's specialties, is that one of the reasons why he's one of your favorite directors to work with, or your favorite? Yes, absolutely. Right. The movies

that live in my heart the most are things like Pan's Labyrinth and The Shape of Water, where he wrote the script himself and he created those roles with me in mind. You can't ask for a more dreamy situation as an actor than to have somebody create a role for you that is gorgeous in every way and ends up at the Oscars both times. You may think that thing looks human,

stands on two legs, right? But we're created in the Lord's image. The other movie he was referring to, The Shape of Water, was Doug's biggest role with Guillermo del Toro. Doug played the amphibian man, a sort of sexy creature from the Black Lagoon that Sally Hawkins' character falls in love with. And it was one of the rare genre films to break through at the Oscars and even win Best Picture. When Guillermo del Toro told Doug about the part, Doug thought it sounded like the other Fishman character he played in the Hellboy movies, Abe Sapien. I said, is this an Abe thing? Is this a prequel, sequel, something?

is this a prequel, sequel, something? He goes, no, no, no. This is its own story. And doggy, you will be the leading romantic male of this movie. And I was taken aback by that concept of, wait, I'm going to be in a fish man costume as the romantic leading male of this film. And again, only Guillermo del Toro

could pull that off as a director. So I knew I was in good hands. But the big difference was that Abe is very, very well spoken and he's got huge vocabulary and he's very smart. He can read three books at one time. He gestures with his hands a lot. He's a very refined gentleman. The Amphibian Man from the shape of water is an animal from the wild completely different the two the two body types between abe and the amphibian were different i'm as the amphibian man they gave me a much more athletic musculature and a great butt i had and and you know when the when it was in the sculpting phase in the creature shop and there were, you know, all the approvals and sculptures, color palettes, changes, no, try this, add more to that, take away some from that.

A lot of that was concentrated on his derriere because he had, you know, you just wanted it. You wanted, Guillermo wanted an ass on this thing that you just wanted to grab and take a bite out of you know and in fact a little side note um octavia spencer one of my co-stars in that movie who was also brilliant in the film whenever we were on set together and i would stand up from my chair to go walk away i would hear her she loved watching me walk away octavia all i would hear would be All I would hear would be, hmm. That's how I knew it was working.

The Shape of Water came out in the fall of 2017, and that was a big year for Doug because he had just begun his journey on Star Trek, which would become the longest and most in-depth role of his career. We'll get to that after the break. A special message from your family jewels depth role of his career. We'll get to that after the break. Mmm, vanilla and shea. That's Old Spice Total Body Deodorant. 24-7 freshness from pits to privates with daily use. It's so gentle. We've never smelled so good. Shop Old Spice Total Body Deodorant now.

We interrupt your podcast to bring you breaking news. Tim's Classic Breakfast Sandwiches are just $3 when you buy any size coffee. You heard that right, $3. Your mornings will never be the same. Plus tax, Canada only, limited time only, terms apply, see app for details. It's time for Dims. I finally realized who Doug Jones was after watching him for decades without knowing it

when I saw him play Commander Saru on Star Trek Discovery. Saru is a Kelpien, which is a new species to Star Trek. And they explain why we've never heard of them before, because they're a rare species on their home planet. They're very vulnerable to predators. So each Kelpien is born with sensors on the backs of their necks that rise up whenever they sense danger.

But Saru is not overly emotional or neurotic. He's strict and compassionate. It is well known that my species has the ability to sense the coming of death. I do not sense it today. I may not have all the answers. I may not have all the answers. However, I do know that I am surrounded by a team I trust. The finest a captain could ever hope to command. As I mentioned in my creature makeup episode, I generally prefer Star Trek aliens that have minimal makeup. But Saru is an exception. They reimagined every aspect of his body, from his neon blue contact lenses to his flattened out face to his brown fingernails. But the prosthetics are very flexible, and Doug wears them like a second skin. And the inspiration for Saru's body language

didn't come from the animal world or previous Star Trek shows. He thought about the butlers in Downton Abbey. What motivates Saru and how he behaves? Being the only and first Kelpien to ever join Starfleet and to ever go through the Academy and come out with high ranks. And he learned, like I said, 90 some languages that he learned. And he's gone above and beyond to prove that he is worthy of being a part of the Starfleet. He has, so he has a lot at stake. Anyone, any, any Kelpings who want to come and join Starfleet in the future, it all depends on what he does now. So I think that's why he watches his P's and Q's. He crosses his T's and dots his I's. Everything is proper, proper, by the rules, book, book, book, book,

because he wants to get everything right. And as Commander Saru, being second in command, and he's the one that is the go-between between captain and crew, so very much like a butler in a big manner like that, you know, the lady and gentleman of the house, if they want something done, it is the head butler that will take that information and then take it to the staff and say, here's what, we're planning a party, here's what has to happen, you go there, you go there, you go that, you dust

that, you make those curtains go, all that. I'm constantly patting myself down, straightening my jacket, patting the sides of my legs to make sure everything is in place. Saru wants to know that everything's in order. Now that you mentioned that, yeah, I'm flashing on you doing that a lot. Yes. In my episode about retconning, I talked about how Star Trek Discovery has been a tough sell for some of the fans because the show made some pretty big changes to the Star Trek canon. But the character of Saru has been universally embraced. I've been to several Star Trek-specific conventions.

And as a member of a newer show there, what I kept hearing at my signing table for my first weekend was, Welcome to the family. Welcome to the family. Oh, thanks so much, Doug. Welcome to the family. Repeatedly, more times than I could count. So they do have a sense of family about them and to be welcomed into it was like, oh good, it worked. Yay, they're accepting me. They're happy to have me. And it's been a journey because quite honestly, I wasn't a huge fan of Saru to begin with. But as the story arc went on, I fell in love with him. I think Saru has to grow on you from the beginning. You got to stick up his ass to begin with. Yeah. Are there ever any pitfalls

or sort of cliches that you ever want to avoid or something that you start to do something and think, you know what, I keep relying on this. It's starting to become one of my kind of bag of tricks as an actor and I need to do something, make a new choice. Oh yeah, sure. After 34 or 35 years, I've played a couple of similar characters. Aliens from Outer Space, Fishmen, right? Two of them. I played two kangaroo men. Oh, that's right. Yeah. I played two large insects, one in Mimic, one in Bug Buster, believe it or not. There's a story. But so the challenge is, how do I make this one different than that one? And the older

I get and the more characters that build up, the harder that gets. I'm sure that I'm sure I have habits that I, that I rely on when I don't know what else to do. My hand gestures, especially I'm kind of known for my hands, I guess. I played a character in a show called Falling Skies. I was a character and my character was named Cochise. I was a Volm alien. He also, much like Saru, was very well spoken. And he had a culture clash with these renegade humans in a funny sort of way. So I was thinking like, oh, geez, I don't want Saru to be a duplicate of Cochise. So how do I make that difference? So channeling the prey species thing, I have hoof boots. So he has hooven feet. Saru does. Yeah. And so when I put those boots on for the first time in my first fitting, it kind of changed my posture a bit.

So in order to keep my balance on them, I had to push my hips a little bit forward. And so that kind of changed my posture into like more of a supermodel pose. And so when he walks, into like more of a supermodel pose. And so when he walks, my arms naturally sort of just started flowing side to side instead of front and back like a normal person walks. That kind of a thing was like, okay, there's something new. I love it.

And nobody ever told me not to, so it stuck. Now, every part is different and he does a lot of research into each role, but his training regimen is mostly the same. It starts when they show him an illustration of what his costume will look like. I'll see concept drawings ahead of time and be like, oh, okay, I can see how intricate or involved it's going to be or uncomfortable it's going to be. I can usually tell that from a flat piece of artwork.

So between concept art and finished pieces glued onto Dougie, between concept art and finished pieces glued on to Dougie, Dougie goes to my 24-hour fitness where the aerobics room where there's a big wood dance floor and a wall of mirrors. And I take all the information that I have so far and try to work out how does he move? How does he walk? What's his, what does the script call for? Lunging, crawling up a wall, squatting, intimidation or weakness. I need to start building this ecosystem in my mind, in my heart. Then comes the costume fittings and makeup tests. And then you'll see what enhancements you have that make a movement or a tilt of the head more pronounced or a flick of the fingers more pronounced or restrictions where I can't raise my arm as high as I thought I could,

or I can't move my head at all, or I want to squat, you know, deep knee bend and I just can't. So what alterations can I make to his ecosystem that now fit what I, my capabilities? Doug Jones is famous for his versatility and his ability to pull off very difficult physical performances. Like in Pan's Labyrinth, to play the faun, he had to walk on these very awkward stilts that looked like animal legs. But he's facing a new challenge, aging. I just turned 60, and I'm proud to say so.

But the older I get, the more restrictions or more limitations I feel. Yes. Is this something you think about a lot in terms of physical limitations? You know, wanting to play characters where you are doing more subtle things and less like super physical? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, sure. You know, I am, if it's jumping like a frog and taking a tumble out of a window, those are things I'd have to discuss with people ahead of time. You know, how much is, do you really need me for, is there a stunt double involved or should we just cast somebody younger? But those are all questions that come up in conversations now. And that's fine.

Those are great questions to have. Actually, you're going to laugh at me, but I'm kind of, actually my, my, what are you going to laugh at me, but I'm kind of, I'm kind of, I I'm a Hallmark channel junkie and I, I love their Christmas movies. I love all of it. So, and now that I'm aging into the, the father of a grown daughter kind of role, that's what I'm dreaming of more is to play the wise gray haired dad who has some great advice over a cup of cocoa where while wearing a Christmas sweater. That's so interesting. Cause I was going to ask you like, what kind of roles would you want to play? And I thought you're going to say something like, I've always wanted to play a, you know, I don't know, something incredibly outrageous, but that is such a subtle,

real grounded character. That's so interesting that, you know, you're like, why, you know, think of me for those roles. I would love if I did a couple, a few of those a year, I'd be the happiest thing. But now had you asked me, you roles. I would love, if I did a couple, a few of those a year, I'd be the happiest thing. But now, had you asked me, you know, 10 years ago, is there a creature or a heavily made up character that you have not played yet that you would love to? My answer would have been a classic vampire of sorts and hopefully Nosferatu.

You would make an excellent Nosferatu. Well, thank you. Because the reason I said 10 years ago is because now we have filmed the remake of that. And it is, it's in post-production as we speak. Yeah, I know. Thank you. Thank you. I love that reaction. David Lee Fisher, the director, writer, he called me up one day, not knowing that Nosferatu was my dream role and said, hey, hey, Doug, it's your friend David. I haven't talked to him. How you been? Good. Hey, I just got an idea. If you don't

want to do it, then I probably won't make it. But if you do, have you ever heard of Nosferatu? Would you want to? So he's been spying on my dreams. So I freaked out and told him, yes, yes. Oh my gosh, yes. It's funny because you have such a sweet, sunny disposition. And then you're also so good at playing these dark characters. Do you enjoy reaching down to find that super dark part of you to play those kinds of characters when you are cast to play those characters? Yeah. Here's the thing. I think that all of us, we have the entire color palette of all the paints. They're all in there somewhere. And how we behave today is it depends on what brush or what palette we're dipping our brush into.

So I tend to do all the happy colors as the real Doug Jones. But the dark colors are there if I if I want to do them in a safe environment of a fictitious character. So that's how I look at it. It's a great way to explore those darker colors within humanity in an environment that's safe. And hopefully it's in a story where there's a positive uplifting outcome from it, some good triumphing over evil or some kind of a message where we learn something from it. Have you ever had a physical feature that you got from one of your characters that you've always wished you actually could keep

or could sort of magically turn, make real every so often? Well, sure. That would be the physical, the athletic body of the silver surfer and the ass of the hippie man. If I could just combine those two and wear it to the beach,

I'd be the happiest thing. It's funny. One of the reasons why Stephanie and I both wanted to talk to Doug Jones is because we couldn't believe that all these characters were played by the same person. Now that we've talked to him,

whenever I see his work, I see his signature as an actor so clearly, no matter what kind of makeup or costume he's wearing. I recognize the smooth elegance of his movements, the fine attention to detail he puts into each character's body language, which goes back to his training as a mime. And I can always spot his rail-thin, tall physique and sculpted face that inspired the

imagination of so many creature designers and directors who thought to themselves, I could do a lot with that guy. Let's see if he's up for the challenge. That's it for this week. Special thanks to Doug Jones. My assistant producer is Stephanie Billman. You can like the show on Facebook. I tweet at emolinski and Imagine Worlds pod.

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