Imaginary Worlds - Fantasy and Fascism

Episode Date: October 1, 2020

Fascism is a common theme in fantasy worlds, especially the rebels vs. evil empire scenario. But what can we learn from stories about encroaching fascism? I talk with journalists Lauren Davis, Damien G. Walter, professor Jason Dittmer and podcaster Stefan Sasse – who teaches history in Germany – about Star Wars, Game of Thrones, superheroes and how fantasy itself can be a dangerous tool for authoritarians.   Stefan also hosts The Boiled Leather Audio Hour podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Want to advertise/sponsor our show? We have partnered with AdvertiseCast to handle our advertising/sponsorship requests. They’re great to work with and will help you advertise on our show. Please email [e-mail] or click the link below to get started. Imaginary Worlds AdvertiseCast Listing Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I'm Eric Molenski. We are heading into an election here in the United States, which is always a time where political rhetoric gets heated, people are feeling tense. But this is not a typical election. Many of the actions that Donald Trump has taken and statements he's made have been denounced as fascist, which has sparked a debate over the definition of fascism. By the way, the dictionary defines fascism as a political movement, philosophy, or regime that glorifies the nation, and often a particular race, while squashing individual rights and

using severe government or social control to suppress political opposition. And lately, I've been thinking about how science fiction and fantasy have depicted fascism, but not the totalitarian regimes where the good guys and the bad guys are clearly defined. I've been thinking about how fantasy worlds have depicted encroaching fascism. What makes fascism so pernicious and hard to spot early on is that it corrupts your national symbols and the icons that you cherish. It's easier to recognize fascism in a leader that you don't like. But if it's your side, how do you recognize the signs before it's too late? How do you convince others on your side without being accused of being a betrayer?

We're going to look at how those questions were explored in three different fantasy worlds, where sometimes I found myself on the defensive, arguing in favor of characters that other people have accused of being fascist. Let's start with everyone's favorite evil empire, Star Wars. In my last episode, I talked with the journalist Lauren Davis about the animated series Clone Wars. One of the interesting things about that show is that we see the art direction gradually change into the empire as we know it,

and the Jedi look increasingly out of place. I asked Lauren, why did she think the Jedi allowed themselves to become like the proverbial frog in the pot of boiling water that didn't realize what was happening until it was too late? She thinks it was their obsession with purity. You know, there's the purity and there's also the reluctance to change and to grow. They believe that if they hold to their rules, their laws, if they never get angry, if they never have like intimate relationships, that they will somehow be pure and great enough to protect everybody. And the Force will provide.

Let's be real. The Jedi are super unhealthy people. In fact, if you look at the entire nine movies, the Jedi allowed two fascist regimes to rise from their own ranks in the prequel and the sequel trilogy. You know, even when Luke Skywalker tries to restart a new Jedi order, sequel and the sequel trilogy. Fans were divided over whether that moment was out of character for luke but you could argue it was not out of character for the jedi if he was trying to recreate what he thought they were like i mean there's a line in revenge of the sith where obi-wan says to anakin

only a sith deals in absolutes but in the prequel movies the jedi deal in absolutes quite a bit But in the prequel movies, the Jedi deal in absolutes quite a bit. Stefan Sasse teaches history in Germany with a focus on fascism. He's also a big fan of sci-fi and fantasy genres, and he thinks the corruption of the Jedi began when they were moved from an elite peacekeeping force to battle commanders with their own armies of clones. Many planets are basically backwaters or have undesirable laws and all that kind of stuff. You know, think of a planet like Tatooine. If I was a Jedi and I would bring an army of clone troopers to Tatooine to secure it from the separatists, would I be able to resist the temptation to abolish slavery and to depose the huts?

This would make Tatooine an obviously and objectively better place. But at the same time I would be abusing my power. Because this is not in my mandate. This breaks every constitution or whatever agreement Tatooine has. And at one point I'm still doing good. I'm fighting here for the Republic. I'm fighting for democracy. Those questions were actually explored in the Clone Wars series, but the Jedi Council was always worried about abusing their power,

or even the perception that they might be abusing their power. In the end, Palpatine still accused them of a power grab, and the Jedi were powerless to convince the Senate otherwise, until... The Republic will be reorganized into the first galactic empire!

So this is how liberty dies? With thunderous applause. And this is one of the more astute observations that George Lucas as a screenwriter has ever put in his screenplays. That is a dynamic that we can also see in history over and over again. But it works because the majority does not believe that it will be that bad. They are presented with two alternatives and one of those alternatives is to fight a war that they could lose or that at the very least will drag on longer and with higher costs in

wealth and lives, or they could grant all these powers. If it is your wages that are being cut in half by the war or your livelihood that just blows up in the Battle of Coruscant, suddenly talk of saving democracy becomes very even-tried compared to the idea that we could end the war then and there. Speaking of rulers with unrestrained power, that brings me to the second fantasy world I want to explore, Game of Thrones. Now even if you've never watched the show, you probably know it's got dragons in it. You may have seen images of Emilia Clarke as Daenerys Targaryen with her golden hair majestically flying on top of a dragon. And you probably heard the ending was controversial. And spoilers ahead if you haven't watched the ending. Now for many years, Daenerys seemed to be on the classic hero's journey.

I mean, like a lot of characters in that world, she wanted to take the Iron Throne and rule the main kingdoms. But she wanted to work her way up. She became the queen of a smaller, faraway kingdom and used her time there as a trial run so she could learn good leadership qualities. And this is not the kind of world where people thought much about being a good leader, other than, do my enemies fear me?

She also fought to end slavery, which is a very noble goal. But, unfortunately, it did tap into a tired trope of the white savior character. And by the end of the series, Daenerys was on the verge of taking the white savior character. By the end of the series, Daenerys was on the verge of taking the Iron Throne. But the evil queen that she was trying to overthrow, Cersei Lannister, used civilians as human shields in the capital city, daring Daenerys to slaughter them or back down.

Other characters tried to find peaceful resolutions, but for various reasons, Daenerys used her last remaining dragon to burn the city and its inhabitants to ashes. And we watched her do it in real time. I mean, it was horrifying to watch. And in the final episode, when she addressed her conquering army, the imagery was copied directly from Nazi propaganda films, if Hitler had been a blonde woman who spoke Dothraki. I did not realize how much I had come to root for Daenerys

until her turn to darkness in the final episodes. My suspension of disbelief, which had fueled me through years of Game of Thrones fandom, was burnt to ashes. But then I became interested in the backlash to the backlash. The fans who said they saw this coming a long time ago, and we Daenerys stans were dupes for not seeing the warning signs. I got defensive at first, but then I was curious to hear their point of view.

Also, one of those fans was my wife, so I didn't have much of a choice. Damian Walter is a journalist who's written a lot about sci-fi fantasy worlds, especially Game of Thrones. He did not have an issue with Daenerys' turn to fascism, but he understands the backlash because for most of the series, she was the literal embodiment of a social justice warrior.

She had been set up as someone who mirrored many of the values of contemporary protest movements. When that went bad, and bad things came from it, I think that was actually kind of morally offensive to some people. I think it could have been really great storytelling, but because they didn't set it up properly, it's very unclear how people should have felt. But for a while, Damien was on her side. There's this great scene, maybe it's like season six or so, and she's talking about breaking the wheel. And we're not going to continue with these like cycles of injustice in our society. So I really wanted her to achieve that. And I was absolutely there and rooting for her to do that.

They're all just spokes on a wheel. This one's on top, then that one's on top and on and on it spins, crushing those on the ground. It's a beautiful dream. Stopping the wheel. You're not the first person who's ever dreamt it. I'm not going to stop the wheel. I'm going to break the wheel. We have this very strong principle

in social justice movements of non-violence. It's there not because violence doesn't necessarily have a use, but it's because once you cross the line into violence, you've got the perennial question of how do you know that you're acting really in the good and that you're not acting out of all of these things that drive, have driven humans throughout history to violence. You know, the world of Game of Thrones is very violent, so she had no option but to employ violence. But as she became more and more violent, you could see that she was going in kind of pretty worrying directions. Now, Stephen Sase also hosts a Game of Thrones podcast called the Boiled Leather Audio Hour.

He thinks the writers of the TV show focus too much on the proverb that when a Targaryen is born, that's Daenerys' family, the gods throw a coin and it lands on greatness or madness, as if she never had a choice in her destiny. This coin, I guess, is not only thrown at birth. It is thrown with every decision that we make as people. And it can go either way. People can do good things and people can do bad things when they have power.

And their previous positions and their previous decisions do not preordain what they will do in future. And I think the same is true with Daenerys. She wants to conquer the world to free it. And we know how this goes. But if you are in a mindset and you really believe it, if you drank your own Kool-Aid, basically, this is very believable that this happens. And he thinks in the early seasons, there was an interesting contrast between Daenerys' And he thinks in the early seasons, there was an interesting contrast between Daenerys' rise to power and the young King Joffrey. Joffrey was a brat to begin with.

And when he inherited the Iron Throne, he became a tyrant instantly. Everybody in the court thought he was an idiot, including his uncle Tyrion, who was forced to be the king's advisor. But Joffrey's grip on power was hard to shake. too ignorant to realize that this person is doing bad things. It usually is that these persons realize that their interests at least partially align with that kind of person. And this is true of many people who support Joffrey. They know that he's bad, but as long as they are on his side, they win in some capacity. They have positions. They have wealth. They have status. And all of that goes down the window if the other, maybe better, candidate wins. And this is also where we get our sympathies in the story of A Game of Thrones. Our sympathies are with the people like Tyrion, who are in the service of a bad regime.

And then you need to ask yourself, can you cheer these people on? Can you actually forgive them, basically, for being in the employ of a bad person? And do you buy the usual excuse that you get from these people, which is I'm trying to limit the damage. You know, I'm trying to ameliorate the bad traits of that ruler. That's always the line that you get. And you can either believe it or you don't. Stefan says one of the tropes that bothers him in fantasy worlds is when the characters who

resist tyrants are rewarded with power and a happy ending. He appreciated the fact that in the end of Game of Thrones, the person who takes Daenerys down is the man that she loved, Jon Snow. And Jon pays a deep personal price for his actions. Resistance is never without cost. More often than not, it costs your whole existence, either your freedom and your economic security and all of that, if you're lucky. It could cost you your life life most often than not and even all those persons that you love because fascists are very good at threatening your family because

that is efficient and it keeps resistance down we have this in germany where everyone thinks they would have been a resistance fighter uh during national socialism but most people were not. I mean, it's like 0.5% who actively opposed the regime. And the other 99.5% would have been either supporters or simply ducked. And I guess I would have been one of those who ducked their head and hoped to get through. You know, if this cliched question that our children ask, what did you do, daddy, you know, or mommy? In that case, I must be willing enough to say i didn't do a thing because i was afraid or whatever the reason was maybe i was enthralled maybe i was stupid there are so many reasons but i need to be able to

to live up to them and damien says that fantasy is the tool that fascists use to keep their supporters afraid and enthralled. Because if you really want to impose your authority over people, you're fighting for the narrative. So there's something always a little bit edgy in the act of fantasy.

Obviously, you know, it's fun and entertaining and that's totally fine and cool. But it's the act of fantasy. Obviously, you know, it's fun and entertaining and that's totally fine and cool. It is the issue of maybe getting lost in those fantasies as well, confusing them with reality. And because fantasy is so appealing, it can definitely play into these authoritarian tendencies. After the break, we will look at another fantasy world that's become obsessed with the question of absolute power corrupting absolutely, which is appropriate when you're dealing with the Nietzschean Superman. Introducing Tim's new Infuser Energy Beverages, made with natural caffeine.

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movies, and video games. They've done several different alternate universes where the Justice League took over the world, and in most cases, the road to fascism began with Superman, like in the video game series Injustice, where Superman became a global dictator after the Joker tricked him into killing Lois Lane. That's the problem with fighting for truth and justice. The battle never ends. And executing them will end it. First Joker, now this. When does it stop? When there's no more crime. When people can live without fear.

We want the same thing, Bruce. But Damian Walter says even if these movies, shows, and games are self-aware, the problems are baked into the genre. And heroes, like, belong to an older period of culture, you know, maybe like classical Greece. And all of its stories are about heroes, heroes going on adventures, killing their enemies, dominating the world around them. And one of the things that happens when a modern nation falls into fascism is that all of the values of this heroic society kind of rush back to the surface. What is fascist about heroic culture? It's entirely focused on threats from enemies or outsiders.

It promotes justice through violence. It doesn't trust citizens or police or politicians to solve these problems. And it elevates the leader to a heroic status who can dole out justice with their fists or weapons while fetishizing the male body. If I'm having a dark night of the soul about like deep culture and sci-fi, that's what kind of worries me about it. It's being used for this slightly fascistic view of the body, which is then linked to quite controlling advertising and marketing paradigms to sell stuff to people.

Jason Dittmer is the author of Captain America and the Nationalist Superhero. He says it is not a coincidence that superheroes were invented when fascism was rising. And there are even people in the U.S. saying our government could be stronger if it emulated what was happening overseas. And so when you see Superman and characters of his time frame kind of coming out in 1938, 1939, 1940, they kind of embody a lot of the attractive elements of fascism, attractive to some. You know, you have, for instance, Captain America himself, blonde haired, blue eyed Steve Rogers. I mean, with his perfect physique, you know, a product of science and government collaboration. But he goes off and fights for individual liberty and fights the Nazis and so on. Right. So there's, you know, I don't think you have to look too hard to see where this kind of the cult of the body, the importance of masculinity and physical violence as a way of overcoming problems.

There's a lot in there that is fascist, I think. Yeah, but what about the fact that Captain America and Superman were invented by these young Jewish guys when anti-Semitism was at its height in the U.S. And obviously we know what's going on in Europe. So, I mean, how could you say there's anything fascist about Steve Rogers if he's invented by Simon and Kirby or Superman if he's invented by Siegel and Schuster? Well, I mean, I think one of the things we've learned about race, ethnicity, and politics is that they don't map onto each other very easily, right? So just like you can have an African-American policeman who reinforces systematic racism, you could have Jewish creators creating characters that reproduce

elements of fascism, right? I mean, if you think of the underlying resentments and sense of weakness that animates fascism, both in the 1930s and also today, right? The sense of being on the defensive that we have to strike or else our enemies will, you know, you can see where the sense of vulnerability that underpins fascism could easily be existent within a kind of ethnic minority context where you have real vulnerabilities, right? The difference is that the fascists,

their sense of grievance is a false sense of grievance, whereas, of course, ethnic minorities actually do get oppressed. All right, well, here's another counter-argument that I hear a lot. Superheroes can't be fascist if they have secret identities, because like at the end of the day, Superman doesn't want to take over the world except in these alternate universes. He just wants to go back to being, you know, regular Schmo Clark Kent. And a lot of the other superheroes are based on that formula. You know, the fact that Superman is so powerful and yet still doesn't oppress everyone sounds like the best possible argument for an authoritarian leader, right?

As opposed to a kind of separation of powers argument that we might see as kind of more inherent to the creation of the Constitution and so on, right? You know, it's like, well, if you can trust Superman, why can't you trust any American president, you know, with unlimited authority, right? They're good people, otherwise they wouldn't be there. It's true the secret identity does not allow Superman to be accountable for his actions. And don't bother complaining to the Daily Planet. Their reporters are totally in the tank for Superman. But Jason thinks the dystopian stories about Superman being

a dictator in an alternate universe miss the larger point. Superhero renditions of fascism tend to be about a single leader who installs himself, right? You know, they've taken over, as it were. But what you don't see is the way in which people are kind of brought around to fascism. And I think there's something to be said for a kind of more nuanced understanding of fascism as it actually works, rather than a kind of fantasy fascism, which is about Superman at the top, as it were, you know, enforcing something on everybody. Because actually nobody can do that. Even Superman can't, you know, control everyone in the world. What you can do is create a system in which everyone's incentives are bent towards what you want. In the movies, the Justice League and the Avengers are motley crews that are hard to assemble

unless the planet is being threatened. But in the comics, they're institutions. If one hero is disillusioned and thinks the team lost their way, there are plenty of other heroes that would love to take their spot on the roster. And Jason says we need to think about the era when superhero teams were invented in the comics. The 1960s, the Silver Age, superheroes become essentially good corporate workers. And that's when you get the Justice League. That's when you get the Avengers. You get the idea of the kind of perpetual team with its building, with its icon, you know, the logo of the team and

so on. You know, they want to be the kind of ideal company men and company women. One of the most subversive takes on the superhero team is The Boys, a show on Amazon, which is based on a comic book series that imagines an organization very similar to the Justice League that's actually a violent, fascist oligarchy. When a new Supergirl-type character joins the League, she's quickly disillusioned. A crime itinerary? Yep, where and when to find the bad guys.

That's what my department does. We vet leads, crunch satellite data, comp stat. Better intel than the police. You know, thanks, but I'm good. I like to do my own investigating. And that is why we love you. But it's not coming from us. It's corporate.

To protect you. What if you nab the wrong person? There's liability to consider. Again, Damien Walter. The thing The Boys does that's very clever is it looks at all of this in the context of a corporate society. So it's very interested in the marketing of superheroes, which is very much the way you know that contemporary celebrities behind the

scenes are all kind of shepherded. It's taking on a lot of hypocrisy because in that corporate culture, you have a real culture of claiming to be, claiming to be heroic. Like if there is a cause and corporations think that they can back that cause without any real cost, then they'll always do so. But it's a very kind of hypocritical thing for corporations to do. And I think the Boys is really smartly plays on that. plays on that. I have to admit, I find The Boys hard to watch because I love the Justice League. I have loved the Justice League since I was a kid. They're my team. And the show does such an effective job of making you feel icky for having ever bought into that fantasy. Although Damien thinks The Boys is a little hypocritical

in the way that it satirizes the violence of superheroes while using violence as a big selling point for the show. So, you know, The Boys is quite happy to be, like, sadistically violent. And not everyone is tuning in to critique that violence. It's part of the enjoyment of it as well but i actually think if i was going to defend superheroes which i'm you know actually totally happy to do it would be from like a psychological perspective and that really storytelling isn't really about politics you can make lots of political readings of stories and that's a cool thing to do but it's really about

like healing the soul of the audience and on that level we really fucking need heroes we need really good heroes as well because we live in a world that's tremendously difficult and we need to have that part of us awakened that can fight for good things we really really need that stephen sase this is why in so many superhero stories um the powers are falling on exceptionally virtuous beings think steve rogers or peter parker or bruce wayne Bruce Wayne, or of course Clark Kent, they are all incredibly pure. You know, this whole Spider-Man thing about with great power comes great responsibility. It's absolutely true. And most people fail in that.

Yeah, it's a sort of having your fan. The ultimate fantasy of the genre is having your cake and eating it too. But what about people who say, okay, I see all your points about the inherent fascism that can exist within the superhero genre, but it's a fantasy. Like, why can't I just enjoy the silly, ridiculous fantasy? In the end, it's about a guy who flies around

and shoots things out of his hands or his eyes, and it can never happen. Why can't I just enjoy my fantasy and then just go back to being a good citizen of my country? You absolutely can. The thing is you just need to be conscious about it. And this is where the value of conversations such as ours comes in.

Because I can absolutely enjoy, all that I told you now, I can still enjoy those stories. It is just that I need to be clear that this is not something I should aspire to. I should not wish for superheroes to rule me. I should not wish for some god or sorcerer or whatever to take control. I should not hold out the hope that the next presidential candidate this time around will be that perfect arbiter that will dissolve the need for partisan bickering

and dirty compromise and all of that. Because dirty compromise and partisan bickering are what keeps the society afloat. And it is a fantasy to cut through all that bullshit and to have one person who is wise and just and unassuming to basically stand above the fray and hand out divine judgments without fail. But we will not have that.

And if we wish ourselves into a position where we elect leaders on that promise, where we basically act out politically on our escapist fantasies, in that moment, it becomes dangerous. On the other hand hand power is there to be wielded. You need it to be exercised in some way else it is wasted because there are too many problems that need to be in some way solved. This is a problem in fiction that it is usually oh the

best king is the one person who doesn't want to be king. No he's a horrible king. He would be absolutely horrible. We need people who actually want power. But we also need people who are good and who know the limits of power and who limit themselves and who are able to have all this self-restraint. And while I'm listing all of this,

you see that practically no person will ever fulfill all of this. And in democracy, we have fail-safes for this, like term limits and you are dependent on a majority and we have regular elections, yada, yada, yada, to basically ameliorate so many of these factors. But still, that's not enough, obviously. We can't choose wrong and have done so over and over again.

And our hope is that the world will survive our mistakes and thrive on our good choices. I understand this point. We need to hold our leaders accountable. But if we hold them up to a fantasy that they can't live up to, we run the risk of becoming cynical and disengaged from the democratic process. And that leaves an opening for leaders who only believe the fantasy version of themselves. That is it for this week. Thank you for listening. Special thanks to Lauren Davis, Stephan Sasse, Damien Walter, and Jason Dittmer. My assistant producer is Stephanie Billman. Damien Walter, and Jason Dittmer.

My assistant producer is Stephanie Billman. In the show notes, I included links to Jason's book and Stefan's Game of Thrones podcast. Now, superheroes are also considered super cops, especially the street-level vigilantes. But that brings up a whole other set of issues. And what's happening in the real world might affect the way we imagine superhero law enforcement and their set of issues. And what's happening in the real world might affect the way we imagine superhero law enforcement and their version of justice. We will explore that in the next episode.

There are countless examples of fascism and fantasy worlds that I didn't have time to explore, like The Hunger Games, where Katniss realizes she's being duped by multiple fascists. What are some of the storylines you find most interesting? You can leave a comment on the show's Facebook page. I tweet at emalinski and Imagine Worlds pod. If you like Imaginary Worlds, please leave a review in iTunes, or do a shout out on social media. That always helps people discover the show.

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