Imaginary Worlds - Heroines

Episode Date: July 29, 2015

"The Strong Female Character" sounds positive, but it's actually a term used by culture critics to describe the token girl let into the boy's clubhouse of action-adventure movies. She's supposed to kick ass -- but she has no character development, no backstory, and ends up being a love interest or damsel. But something changed this summer. Feminist fans and critics got into a spirited debate over a group of heroines, and whether we need to rethink this whole problem. With Lindsay Ellis, Carolyn Cox of The Mary Sue, and Jan Combopiano of Catalyst. THIS IS THE END OF SEASON ONE. IMAGINARY WORLDS WILL RETURN IN THE FALL.Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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There's a term that gets used a lot in sci-fi fantasy criticism. The strong female character. And that's all in quotes. Well, there's usually only one. You can't have more than one. Because then that will upset the balance of the entire universe. Right. Jan Combo-Piano is a senior vice president at Catalyst,

a nonprofit that works to advance women in business. You don't need to know anything about her. She doesn't have to be a fully realized character. She doesn't have to have a history. She don't need no man, but she will find one. By the end, that will be part of her arc. Lindsay Ellis is a media critic. She very often likes to shit on other women

just to prove how much of a badass she is. And also, she tends to resent whenever people point out her womaniness. Yeah, because a lot of times the quote strong female character to me is almost like when you're playing a video game and she just drops out of the sky. And she's just like, and she's just standing there with her fists up already. And she's like her ponytail and she's just ready to fight. A trope I hate is I feel like it's always like, yeah, I have five brothers or like my dad was in the army or something. Like her abilities are always explained away in that she got them from a man.

In here's Carolyn Cox, an editor at the website The Mary Sue. And she's gorgeous and flawless at the same time. No matter what kind of life-threatening scenario she's in, she has time to shave her armpits. And after all her tough talk and great hygiene, she ends up being a damsel that the hero has to save. She has to earn his attention. And once she's earned it, he becomes a better hero because he saves such a strong person. I mean, this bugs me, and I'm a guy. I mean, I love these movies, but I get frustrated when one of the main characters is really clearly underwritten and has no character flaws whatsoever,

and it's obvious that this comes from a place of fear. And I'm honestly shocked at the way the studios refuse to make toys of the heroines. Like, they'll make all the Avengers but Black Widow. And the studios will argue, well, you know, girls don't buy action figures. And everyone who complains is just citing anecdotal evidence. Well, here's some anecdotal evidence. I was at New York Comic Con last fall, and there were several huge displays of every Lego minifigure you can imagine

of the male characters. And while I was there just looking around, several different girls came up asking for Batgirl, Supergirl, Wonder Woman, even the villains Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn. But they'd only made a few of those figures, and sold out that day. The first day of Comic-Con. The girls walked away disappointed. The studios also claimed that women will see movies about men, but men won't see movies that star women. And when you bring up the Alien franchise or the Hunger Games, they dismiss them as flukes. So that was the state of frustration.

Until the summer when something happened that really surprised me. A few films came out featuring strong female characters. And some of the women who write about science fiction and fantasy that I read regularly disagreed with each other about these characters and whether we should rethink this whole problem. Now, the only way to talk about this subject is to go heavy on spoilers, because this debate is all about what happens in these films. So first, let's talk about Avengers, Age of Ultron. So first, let's talk about Avengers, Age of Ultron. Since Iron Man 2, Scarlett Johansson has been playing Natasha Romanoff,

a.k.a. Black Widow, a former Russian spy who now works for us. In the first Avengers movie, the villain Loki tells her that he knows all the bad stuff that she's done. It's really not that complicated. I got red in my ledger. I'd like to wipe it out. Can you? Can you wipe out that much red? Dreykov's daughter. Sao Paulo.

The hospital fire. Barton told me everything. Your ledger is dripping. It's gushing red, and you think saving a man no more virtuous than yourself will change anything? A lot of fans were curious, what is this big weight that she has on her shoulders? And the answer was not what they were expecting. In the sequel, Age of Ultron, there is a budding romance between Natasha and Bruce Banner,

aka the Hulk, and when he tells her they can't be together because he could never be a husband or a father, she reveals that in the final stages of her training to be an assassin, she was sterilized. And then she reassures him that he is not the only monster on the team. And all I could think of was, wait, what? You're a monster because of what?

Jan Combo Piano was one of the many Black Widow fans that was upset. It's not saying that it's bad that she wants to be a mother. If that was the story and that we had seen sort of the first steps of that in any previous movie that she ever wanted to be a mother. It wouldn't have been so shocking. Yeah. That reveal about what happened to her in the red room is awful. And it couldn't.

And if it had just stopped there without the monster comment, I don't think we would have had this Twitter war. I don't know that we would have had quite as much vehemence about it. Yeah. Although the sort of are we gods or monsters theme does come up throughout. Like all the characters at some point do kind of wrestle with am I a god or a monster? Well, I mean, they both could be considered a monster. I mean, especially him. Yeah.

He's a big green guy who destroys cities. Yeah. That's probably the definition of a monster. I mean, especially him. Yeah. He's a big green guy who destroys cities. Yeah. That's probably the definition of a monster. Her, because of her ledger, her red ledger, she could be a monster. But the fact she says she's a monster because she can't have children. I don't know the connection that you're a god because you create something. That's Tony Stark's story, right? He creates Ultron. Thor is a god. Right. But Black Widow and Hawkeye, they're supposed to be people, right? She's an awesome person. You know, her character, she's always really quick with a quip. She's very funny. She's very smart. No, it just, to me, was like a slap in the face to her as a character.

But a lot of women saw that scene differently, like Carolyn Cox. That scene in particular didn't offend me because I felt like the way it was framed, it wasn't being shown as, like, all women feel this way. I felt like it was one individual sharing her experience as opposed to like in Jurassic World when Bryce Dallas Howard's character is pretty firm at first that she doesn't want to

be a mother and everyone in the movie, everyone in this world that's set up makes her out to be a monster for that. So I think I appreciated Age of Ultron in that it felt like one woman's perspective. But that wasn't the end of it. During the press junket, a reporter asked Jeremy Renner and Chris Evans if they were bothered that, after fans speculated Black Widow might hook up with either one of their characters, now she's being paired with Bruce Banner. And they were clearly feeling bored and punchy because it had been a really long, grueling press tour.

And they joked that she was a slut and a whore, which sparked a social media firestorm. They both issued apologies, but it was pretty clear that Jeremy Renner thought the whole thing was ridiculous. Now, mind you, we're talking about a fictional character and fictional behavior, but, Conan, if you slept with four of the six Avengers, no matter how much fun you had,

you'd be a slut. Yeah. I think it was very clear how little gray area is afforded to her. Like, we're not allowed to go in between, you know, we're not allowed to be ambiguous about what partners we're going to have. And again, that would never happen with Tony Stark, you know, never in a million years. There are so many double binds for women. They can't be too caring and soft because then they're wimps and they're not a strong

female character. But if they're too strong and too ballsy, then people don't like them. And so they just have to navigate this really narrow bridge in between both of those. Male characters can be complete assholes and no one cares. What surprised me most about this whole discussion was that I didn't know so many women felt a strong connection with Black Widow. I totally missed how unique it was for a heroine to get a dark past with a redemption story. I'm gonna unhitch the pod! And I felt the same way about Furiosa, Charlize Theron's character in Mad Max Fury Road.

You said a few vehicles in pursuit, maybe. We count three war parties. Yeah, well, I got unlucky. I thought she was just another strong female character. So I asked Lindsay Ellis, what did I miss? She does get hurt and, you know, actually physically really feels it. And she needs Max. Like that last really long chase scene of them kind of like saving each other 26 times.

Which I, you know, I thought was great. And like they defeat the bad guy by working together. But it is ultimately Furiosa's story there for it's ultimately her that, you know, pulls the thingy out of the of the bad guys now. The thingy is his menacing breathing apparatus. So in that movie, Furiosa has escaped the clutches of a post-apocalyptic warlord called Immortan Joe. And she stole his captive brides, some of whom are pregnant, and she's driving them back to her home base, which is actually populated by badass women warriors. Now, it's implied that Joe raped Furiosa and the brides, but we don't see the rape on film,

which we often do in these stories. And that's another problematic trope of the strong female character. So Mad Max was celebrated by feminists and denounced by misogynists. But then the media critic Anita Sarkeesian wrote a bunch of tweets slamming the movie, saying, it makes me profoundly sad that mainstream pop culture now interprets feminism to mean women can drive fast and stoically kill people too! This is the same Anita Sarkeesian that was persecuted by trolls who threatened her life because of her critique of video games. So for her to denounce this movie was shocking for a lot of her supporters. And they let her know, which sparked a whole other debate.

And they let her know, which sparked a whole other debate. In order to really kind of hold to that analysis, you completely have to ignore the vulnerability that Furiosa is allowed in the narrative, which is not nothing, you know. It's definitely there and it's important, which is, I think, a reason why a lot of women related to her so intensely where they wouldn't to, you know, a female character that isn't allowed like vulnerability and to be sad and to be scared. But what about her argument that the action adventure genre is inherently male because the characters solve their problems

through violence? It's something I feel like I inherently disagree with. Carolyn Cox. I love action and I feel like I would be watching it regardless. And to be able to have access to an action movie that doesn't offend me as a woman is so profound and unusual. Right. It's almost like just, you know, I don't need Wonder Woman in it. Just don't offend me. Yeah, that's all I'm asked for. That's what I personally thought Mad Max did. You know, that's not saying much in the grand scheme of things, but it's so rare. I mean, I feel like maybe since Sigourney Weaver in Aliens, I haven't felt that as much. Years ago, the cartoonist Alison Bechdel wrote a frustrated article about the bare minimum she

expects from these movies. The Bechdel test ended up becoming a cornerstone of feminist pop culture criticism, much to the surprise of Alison Bechdel herself. The test is pretty simple. There should be more than one woman in the movie. We're talking about women with speaking roles. They should talk to each other about something other than a guy or romance. People tend to misappropriate it. Again, Lindsay Ellis. It can be used as a dismissive thing, like this idea that if a movie does pass it, it's instantly feminist, which is super reductive. And if it doesn't pass it, then it's problematic.

And to me, it's more about who makes the movies and the way they see the world and how this reinforces the way we see the world. That's why Jan Combo-Piano prefers a different standard, the Makamori test. That idea comes from the movie Pacific Rim, which is about people in giant robot suits fighting monsters. It does have only one strong female character, Makamori. But her story arc doesn't rely on a male hero. Makamori. But her story arc doesn't rely on a male hero. When she was a child, these giant monsters came from this other dimension and destroyed Hong Kong, where she was from.

She was a child. She's sitting there crying. And one of these giant robot human people came by and saved her. And he became her surrogate father. And so they have this whole relationship, how do you let go of a child, how do you let go of your parent to become who you need to be as an adult. A long time ago, I made you a promise. Que gaironda. The fact that I even have to mention

that that's exciting and interesting to me as an adult woman in 2015, it's kind of shocking how many movies are like that. Whenever this discussion comes up online, it gets heated really fast. Like at the level of gun control, Obamacare, and Israel. But at the same time, a lot of men will question, well, why does this debate even matter? Aren't there more important issues to care about in the world? of men will question, well, why does this debate even matter? Aren't there more important issues to care about in the world? Well, for one, the fortunes of entire corporations are being propped

up by tentpole movies with big special effects, which are supposed to appeal to the widest demographic possible. That's why this failure of imagination is so surprising and frustrating. But Lindsay says there's another reason why this matters. We need to be more aware, not just of the women in the movies and the proportion of them, but the way that the men treat them. Do the male characters respect them? Do they feel the need to do this? I didn't know a girl could punch thing, you know, just like this. He's like Max Lanzer's like, oh, you could draw it for a girl.

Yeah, it's like he never does that. And just like the level because the level of respect hawkeye and black widow have for each other i'm just like i'm so glad that's there and i kind of feel like that kind of gets glossed over yeah the fact that they have this platonic relationship no one ever questions it you know no one ever goes are you guys doing it you know and like they never disrespect each other but they clearly have this like deep level of trust i'm like that's great it's great that that's great. It's great that that's there. And it's important that that's there. And I think part of the thing that we really need to see more of is, you know, young

boys especially need to learn like media is very important for learning empathy in our culture. And empathy is something we are sorely lacking in our culture right now. And empathy is something we are sorely lacking in our culture right now. Carolyn Cox says there's only one real way to get change. If there are more women creators out there, we'll gradually start to whittle away at that ingrained fear of women taking something away from us. And we'll just start to be able to actually see all creators as equal. Now there are women directors and writers attached to upcoming DC and Marvel movies. But, you know, until a movie starts shooting, you can't count on anything.

I think what makes any character a strong character is that they're allowed to make choices. And the fact that so many people have disagreed about the choices these heroines are making, it's a small sign of progress. I mean, even if they make bad choices, at least they have a mind of their own. Well, that's it for this week's show. Thanks for listening. Special thanks to Lindsay Ellis, Carolyn Cox, Jan Camopiano, Shana Malofsky, and Serena Fong. You can like the show on Facebook. I tweeted emalinski. The show's website is imaginaryworldspodcast.org. And that's going to be it for Season 1 of Imaginary Worlds. I'm taking the rest of the summer off to recharge my batteries and work on the next batch of episodes, which will come out in September.

Until then, have a great summer, everybody.