Imaginary Worlds - Joss Whedon '07

Episode Date: December 31, 2014

In April 2007, I interviewed Joss Whedon for a public radio story about how he was continuing Buffy The Vampire Slayer as a comic book. I only got to use a few sound bytes for that piece, but I always liked the interview itself, which has been sitting on my desktop until now.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Make your nights unforgettable with American Express. Unmissable show coming up? Good news. We've got access to pre-sale tickets so you don't miss it. Meeting with friends before the show? We can book your reservation. And when you get to the main event, skip to the good bit using the card member entrance.

Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Secret. Secret deodorant gives you 72 hours of clinically proven odor protection. Free of aluminum, parabens, dyes, talc, and baking soda. It's made with pH balancing minerals and crafted with skin conditioning oils. You're listening to Imaginary Worlds, a show about science fiction and other fantasy genres.

I'm Eric Malinsky. It is New Year's Eve, at least when this podcast is going out, because it goes out on Wednesdays. Happy New Year, everybody. This is not a great week to put out original content, so I'm just going to play you an interview that I did with Joss Whedon, the Joss Whedon, back in April of 2007. We talked for half an hour and maybe four minutes of that ended up on the air, not including clips from Buffy and narration. So I'm really glad that I can actually play most of the interview. So this was a few years after Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Angel and Firefly had all gone off the air. Iron Man had just started

filming, so nobody knew that someday Joss Whedon would direct the Avengers and the sequels and be the godfather of all Marvel films. At that point, the biggest thing going on in his career was a Buffy comic book, which told the story of what happened to the characters after the series finale. And also during this time, the big controversy for Buffy fans was that Joss had stopped being the showrunner in the last two seasons because he was working on these other shows. And it's funny because the writers on Buffy were really great and very well loved by the fans until Whedon stepped away.

And then the show took a really dark turn, and a lot of fans accused him of abandoning his characters, even though he was still overseeing the whole thing. So you'll hear us address that issue. So I would say without further ado, but I'm going to make a little bit more ado here. So I cut the beginning of the interview because we just sort of, he went in kind of a long explanation about how he tried to continue Buffy with these directed DVD movies. And then there's an animated series, which didn't get picked up. And then finally he, you know, made this comic book happen. And so I said to him, you know,

it's funny because I thought the show ended on a perfect note. You know, all the characters had kind of completed their arcs. When did you realize they were still speaking to you? You know, I don't think it ever stops speaking to me. Sometimes I wish it would shut up. But the fact of the matter is, you know, it's the story of somebody's life. And that's why we were always able to come at every season in a fresh manner, because it was a different time in somebody's life. High school, college, you know, the workforce, you know, all the little benchmarks. A comic book isn't as strictly adherent to, you know, the day-to-day as the show would be. But, you know, the characters would always

continue to grow. I was never going to do the Saved by the Bell, we're in the same grade for 42 years kind of concept. So it's about change. It's about growth. I continue to change. I have yet to grow or mature in any way, but I'm still changing. And so, you know, I still feel like there's stuff to do. Plus, I love comic books. And that medium informed the sensibility of the show from the start. So to work on a purely comic book level is in a way a pure realization of the original vision. Is there anything that you find particularly satisfying about being able to do it all in comic books now, not having to do with actors or sets or anything? I mean, you can literally just draw these actors and you've got them.

Well, I wish I could. Georges Janti is drawing them and does a wonderful job. If I could draw them myself, that would be fun too. But I would never have worked with them. No, I get great satisfaction in mostly Giant Dawn. The fact that the character of Dawn has become a giant makes me inordinately happy. Stuff like that, purely comic book stuff that you couldn't afford to do on TV is a joy. And I love writing the dialogue, but ultimately I love writing the dialogue because I love the sound of those actors' voices and you really hear them when you're writing it and hopefully when you're reading it. So in a way, it's a little bittersweet.

I've written some of my favorite dialogue for my friends that they will never actually speak. See, now that actually brings a really interesting issue for me because, I mean, I love the show. I was never one of those people that was upset by season six. I love the direction the characters were going in. But my feeling was, even though there were great writers in the show, they never quite sounded like themselves to me unless you were writing them, I hate to say. I remember the last episode where Angel and Buffy have that exchange and he calls Spike Captain Peroxide. She compares herself to a half-baked chocolate chip cookie. And I was just thinking, oh my God, it's them. You know, they sound like themselves again.

And when I was reading this comic, I started reading the first page, and I thought, ah, it's Buffy again. Well, it's... Well, first of all, thank you. The half-baked cookie speech, by the way, was Marty Noxon's, not the actual speech, but the concept behind it. And when you do a show,

you try to create a particular patois and a style that is exactly your own. And then you're basically trying to get people to both mimic and expand it. Everybody's going to bring something a little bit different to the party. But for me, that's what makes it a party and not just a guy in his room with a bowl of punch by himself. I like hearing other people's concepts and a lot of the way I started to write was influenced by what I'd heard from Greenwald or Petrie or any number of really great writers on that show. So, you know, I'm sure there are a lot of, you know, lines that you absolutely adore and probably attributed to me that were theirs and vice versa. Lines that I hated that I was like, Joss would never have written that. In fact, he did.

Exactly. People will come to me and say, how could you have let so-and-so do this? vice versa. Lines that I hated that I was like, Joss would never have written that. In fact, you did. Exactly. People will come to me and say, how could you have let so-and-so do this? And I'm like, sweetheart, that was moi. And ultimately,

you know, even if you didn't write it, you take responsibility for it. When you're executive producing, when you're creating anything, every single product has your name on it and is your responsibility. So if there's a single issue of the comic that doesn't feel right to the audience, then I'm not doing my job. And I want to ask you too about your saying how the characters kind of don't shut up in

a way. I'm very curious, after the show was over with, how did you feel they were speaking to you? Were there sort of moments where you're having flashes of, you know what, Buffy's in Europe now and I just know it? Well, you know, we had said she was in Europe on Angel, but that was more about Angel and Spike than it was really about Buffy. But I always imagined, you know, having been in that small and rather evil town for a long time, she would get out and see the world. That's another part of growing up, not one we were going to be mapping necessarily.

I think when the show first ended, what I was really thinking about Buffy was, oh, that was really hard. It took eight years. So, you know, I didn't, you know, it took, I had a recovery period of a few years, you know, before I realized, oh, that's what that noise in my head is. It's those guys chattering. Did you consult with the actors at all and say, not even just say, hey, you know, or even just let them know, by the way, this is where your character is going? I really didn't. And, you know, I see some of the actors pretty regularly. Others I see occasionally. But the fact of the matter is, I just never really hired a single huge comic book geek. And so I'd get all excited and say,

guess what, your character's doing this and this. And they really just, they're like, I've had 14 roles since then. Learn to let go. And of course, if you show them a drawing of themselves, they're not going to like it. They're not going to go, wow, I look awesome. They're going to go, my arm's too long,

my elbow's too wide you know my one eye I mean you know they just you know nobody has that kind of perspective myself included but there are no drawings of me until we do the big Numphar book but the big Numphar book Numphar was my great

starring role clearly you missed it I don't remember that when was that once a thespian I danced in the background of one shot in an episode of Angel in Demon Makeup. Wow, I totally missed that. Yeah, no, I set the bar for television acting. I hear Gandolfini used to watch the Numphire dance a lot just to prep for the Sopranos because that's really how it's done. I think I'm being knighted, sir.

Yeah, I want a few Olivier's for that. So now as far as the Buffy's storyline that she's going on, for me it always seemed like there was, well, obviously there's this tension between her kind of wanting to be a regular girl and having the sense of responsibility of being the Slayer.

Where are you taking that now for this new sort of season eight? Well, regular girl is not on Buffy's resume anymore. Obviously, she still has regular feelings and desires and, you know, frustrations. She's, you know, the concept behind the entire piece is a regular person is put into a horror movie and goes, why are you all – why is everybody talking like this? Why are you so arch? Why are you so full of yourselves? Why do these vampires keep wearing these puffy shirts and thinking they're sexy? Oh, wait.

That one really is. Okay. Now I feel weird and conflicted. That was sort of the beauty of the thing. But the fact of the matter is now she's really a superhero. I mean ultimately she's accepted that that's what she is. She's accepted to an extent even though it's hard for her as you read in the first issue that she doesn't have a normal life. She will still be reaching for some kind of normality and most importantly of course the love and trust of her close-knit friends.

But the fact is the whole world is changing and that's largely because of her. The fact is the whole world is changing and that's largely because of her. So the arc for Buffy at the very beginning was finding out that there were demons in the world and that she had to fight them. And then over the course of the years, seeing how that affected her. And now that she's created the new bunch of slayers, for anybody who doesn't know, she made all the potential slayers slayers at the end of the at the end of the show and and so now there's this basically new sort of burgeoning race of slayers and and not unlike the mutants in the x-men universe uh people aren't necessarily loving them um they love in the idea that they're all these women who have a lot of power um and so she's going to be you know working a great, much more epic scale because it's a comic and also directly confronting what the show, you know, basically danced around or incorporated for the entire seven years, which is, you know, basically rampant misogyny. How so?

Women with power tend to make people very upset. Those people tend to make people very upset. Those people tend to make me very upset. That's interesting. But there were a lot of female villains, though, throughout the series. Oh, absolutely. everyday normal women who may have been in positions of either just being normal or being truly oppressed have a greater power than anyone around them. It's a very tricky issue for some people. And the book is never going to be, and neither was the show, one-sided and just say, well, all women must be more powerful than men and men are stupid and women are awesome.

I mean, women in power, two words, Margaret Thatcher. So clearly, you know, everybody's fallible. But at the same time, there is a horrible imbalance in our gender structures in every culture. And that's something that is sort of going to come bite Buffy back now that she's empowered so many women. How do you feel about fan fiction? Do you ever read that stuff? Do the writers ever read that kind of stuff? I don't generally read fan fiction, but I've definitely glanced at it because I had never

heard of it when the show started. I mean, you know, Jane Espenson had. She knew all about, you know, she can tell you a lot about some really unseemly Starsky and Hutch fan fiction. But that was, you know, published. I mean, it would be printed. I don't think I've ever thought of that in my mind until you just said that. Oh, well, believe me. Kirk and Spock ain't nothing for chemistry when it comes to Starsky and Hutch. Believe me, Kirk and Spock ain't nothing for chemistry when it comes to Skarsgård and Hutch.

But, you know, I am absolutely 100 percent completely for it. If I was not writing professionally, if I was growing up right now, that's what I'd be doing. You know, everybody incorporates characters that they love into their own fantasy life and to be able to create narratives around that and then share those and compare them and have a whole community based on the fact that you're sitting alone in your room writing a fantasy involving your favorite TV characters. What was in my day a little pathetic is now actually really not only fun but really useful because it's like a giant writing class that includes anybody in the world who wants to join it. Did you hear about, there's a website where somebody has kept a diary of every person and object where Spike's leather jacket has a diary and the stuffed bunny in Buffy's room had a diary? No, I did not know that. It's great,

actually. My leather jacket has a diary. And I actually snuck in and read it, and it's just all about how sweaty I am. Weird. Yeah, no, Spike's leather jacket sounds like Spike. It's very funny. Yeah, that is. Well, you know, if people can find a way in, then I don't care what it is. No, it's interesting because, you know, Buffy, you know, a lot of people felt Buffy deserved.

Emmy nominations had never gone. Do you ever have, did you ever think about sort of the sort of respectability of genre issues? I mean, have you sort of let go of being bothered in any way by that? I let go of that before it started. Every now and then, you know, you'll stop and go, every award I've ever won has a rocket ship or a planet on it. But those, by the way, are way cool looking awards. So and and they're the awards, you know, I mean, when Serenity won the Hugo and Nebula, that was that was like the biggest honor of my life because, you know, that's the stuff I read as a kid.

I love genre. Genre has much more respect now than it did. that was like the biggest honor of my life because you know that's the stuff i read as a kid i love genre um genre has much more respect now than it did uh when i was young somebody you know did the math and realized that all of the biggest money-making films of time were you know were fantasy films and the situation is a lot better now uh for genre than uh um that it was uh but um ultimately you know i didn't create a show called buffy the vampire slayer expecting to get an emmy um you know and and and i you know i dread um what i think is the bane of science fiction which is taking yourself too seriously um and uh you know buffy had a particularly silly and sophomoric title on purpose because I wanted to tell people, look, we're going to have fun. Doesn't mean it's

not going to be dark sometimes. It's going to be some weird stuff going on, but we're going to have a good time. And if you're not here to do that, then, you know, you probably best watch something else. Because, you know, I don't need for the genre to become more respectable and more like, you know, procedurals with superheroes. I need fantasy. I need science fiction. I need other worlds. I need the future.

I need spaceships. I need monsters. I need these things in my fictions because they're what I love. And I don't care if they ever give me an award for it. That's the stuff I'm going to write. I mean, that's always actually what I always loved about the show when I first started watching it. I thought it was amazing was this sort of there's this tongue in cheek, almost self-deprecating sense to it throughout. It's almost like the writers are winking at you saying, look, we know this is kind of ridiculous.

And you're thinking, oh, they know this. And for some reason, that just allows you to suspend your disbelief so much more. You're like, all of a sudden, you're having so much more fun because there's this like little tongue in cheek thing going through the whole thing. Well, you know, I'm not a fan of camp, which is, you know, completely distance, which is a thing that is, you know, making fun of itself on a very basic level. But I am a fan of the, you know, the reality of a person in a ridiculous situation. And from the very start, whenever something was not only ridiculous, but say repetitive, if we did something that we'd done before, David Greenwald and I always had the motto,

plant a flag on it. Have somebody say, didn't this just happen? Or, you know, or is that a 12-foot bird man? Because I just want to check. Because no matter how long they've been in the game, that kind of reality check is what keeps them the audience proxy. So yeah, that makes it much more fun. I mean, the classic example being the musical, which people say, oh, bursting into song, that's so unrealistic. And then I have a bunch of people bursting into song and going, that was so unrealistic. What's going on?

You know, it allowed people to enjoy the musical on a level that was perfectly comfortable. All right. I want to let you go because I know you sound really – you sound kind of hungry. Am I hearing your stomach? You might be hearing my stomach, uh, just because, uh, my stomach never shuts up. I, sometimes I used to stand near the actors,

you know, and, and then they'd ask me to go over to the monitor because they couldn't act over my stomach. All right. Well, let me ask, I want to ask one more question though. Do you ever,

do you, I mean, as sort of the, the guy who ultimately the characters are speaking towards, um, do they ever, do you ever sort of let your fantasy go and, and have them do something that you think, well, that was really silly, you know, that will never happen, you know, just sort of giving

yourself permission, not even like that kind of weird, creepy fan fiction, but something that's kind of silly. You know, I'm not afraid of the weird and the creepy, and we love the silly. When we were talking about doing an animated show, you know, that was our, that was the release valve for a while. But the show itself, you know, we were not afraid to go to the silly any more than we were afraid to go to the dark or the twisted. It just had to have some grounding in reality. We had to get there. But we, you know, we did some of the most ridiculous stuff on the show and the comic book is certainly not going to break that tradition. But you never, there's never anything that you think all right you know that's just for my head you know i'm never going to actually oh yes oh my god there are things the writers that we pitched that you know we would laugh about for years uh that i will never repeat in public um and there

were things that we were always like um i mean, the classic example was something we had planned to do for the animated series was Robot Shark Monster. I don't know how we got stuck on Robot Shark Monster, but we were obsessed with the beauty of Robot Shark Monster and the alienated teen who had created a Robot Shark Monster and nobody being able to figure out what the metaphor was. But why a Robot Shark Monster? Because nobody pays attention to me and it's a metaphor for me. A Robot Shark Monster. was. But why a robot shark monster? Because nobody pays attention to me, and it's a metaphor for me. A robot shark monster. Yes, but why a robot shark monster? We would go on about robot shark monster forever.

And when we, you know, started writing scripts for the ill-fated animated show, that was one of the first things we thought about. Now we can actually have a robot shark monster. You know, and that was a different kind of sensibility than the comic book, because the animated show was going back to year one and telling stories, you know, and that was a different kind of sensibility than the comic book because the animated show was going back to year one and telling stories, you know, of a slightly more innocent, uh the things that are too silly, the things that are slightly out of character or too expensive or just gut-bustingly funny

or incredibly offensive or a mixture of all of the above. Was there ever anything that you really fought for that the writers nixed and just said, no, you can't, no, we can't do, we can't have? You know, it's interesting, but that never happened. Greenwalt had a saying he was fond of, which was, well, Joss wants it this way. Gee, which way do you think it'll go? You know, I was running the show. That's not to say that I couldn't be talked out of a bad idea. I just never had one. Oh, how I wish that were true. Oh, no. Everyone was just afraid of me. Yeah. Mostly of just afraid of me. Yeah.

Mostly of my sweaty leather jacket. Right, which has a blog now, too. Yeah. Strangely enough. All right. Well, great. I think we've covered everything, and this can all be sliced and diced and edited just for the choice parts. Yes.

So when the interview comes out, you'll be, you'll hear me, Hitler was good. And I'll be like, wait a minute. I didn't, how did you? It will all be about your leather jacket and your stomach, basically. Well, honestly, what's more interesting? My stomach actually answered

most of the questions. I didn't agree with a lot of my stomach's opinions, but what can you do? All right. It's free country. Thank you so much for coming in today. Thanks for having me.

So listening back eight years later, there's a couple of really interesting things here. First of all, when he says, I don't like superhero sci-fi fantasy stuff that takes itself too seriously. Because when you think about it, I mean, his sensibility, his tongue-in-cheek sensibility, the witty banter, that is now the sensibility of Marvel films. banter, that is now the sensibility of Marvel films. And he's saying this a year before Chris Nolan has made Batman Begins, but he kind of is describing what the DC sensibility, the very serious, somber DC sensibility was going to become. And this is a debate that DC Marvel fans have been having, and God knows will continue to have until 2020 when this entire cycle of DC versus Marvel films finally plays out. I also thought it was interesting to hear him talk about how mad he gets about rampant misogyny. Because in the last year, 2014, he's been really vocal about defending women in the gaming community who have been tormented by male chauvinist trolls.

So, go Joss. Anyway, that's it for this week. Thanks for listening. You can like Imaginary Worlds on Facebook. I tweet at emolinski. The show's website is imaginaryworldspodcast.org. And thank you guys so much for listening, supporting the show in 2014,

and got a lot of good stuff lined up, so can't wait for you to hear it. Panoply.