Imaginary Worlds - Mystery Science Theater Reopens

Episode Date: May 26, 2022

Mystery Science Theater 3000 or MST3K is back once again. The show was first created by Joel Hodgson, then a stand-up comedian who was ambivalent about the career path laid out in clubs or maybe a sitcom. His premise -- that he and a few robot pals are trapped by mad scientists on a spaceship and forced to watch bad movies – turned the show into a cult classic and helped define a snarky, self-aware sense of humor for pop culture in the ‘90s. I talk with Joel about why he left the initial run of the series, and how he's brought it back on his own streaming service called Gizmoplex. We also explore how his sense of humor has changed, and whether he might have been too harsh on some of the films they lampooned. This episode is sponsored by Mint Mobile and Squarespace. Our ad partner is Multitude. If you’re interested in advertising on Imaginary Worlds, you can contact them here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Typically on this show, we look at science fiction or fantasy that's successful and sucks you in. But what happens if the filmmakers fail and we don't suspend our disbelief? That is where Mystery Science Theater 3000 comes in. In the not-too-distant future, next Sunday, A.D., 3000 comes in. If you're of a certain age and you lived in the U.S. during the 90s, you know the show. Mystery Science Theater was a huge presence on Comedy Central, and they did several live tours across the country. Now, at the start of the series, the premise of the show was that there's a janitor named Joel on a spaceship. He was captured by mad scientists and forced to watch terrible movies in order to drive him insane. To keep his sanity, Joel built

two wisecracking robots, and they're clearly built using real-world props like a gumball machine, ping-pong balls, and Tupperware. These are my robots, Tom Servo and Crow, and I've installed in them a protocol module that makes them believe everything I think, say, or do is utterly brilliant. Oh, and it is Joel! God, yes. Oh, Joel! There were sketches and comedy bits throughout the episodes, but most of Mystery Science Theater was basically broadcasting old movies, usually sci-fi and fantasy B-movies from the 50s or direct-to-videos from the 80s. At the bottom of the screen, you'd see silhouettes of

the human and robot characters sitting in their seats, and they'd give running commentary on movies like The Brain That Wouldn't Die, Village of the Giants, or Space Mutiny, which featured a chase between two flimsy looking space vehicles. We need both horsepowers on this thing. They just hit a poodle? If we can't go any faster, I'd have to drop the waxing compound. It's hard to capture the spirit of the show without actually seeing the terrible special effects they're making fun of.

And in this case, the fact that the actors were clearly cast based on the size of their muscles. I highly encourage you to go on YouTube and watch any mystery science theater clips. They still crack me up after all these years. The show was created by Joel Hodgson in 1988. He played the human janitor character with his deadpan sense of humor. But in 1993, Joel left the show due to creative differences behind the camera. He was replaced with a new janitor character until the show ended in 1999. But Joel never really let go of mystery science Theater. In 2015, he led a revival through Kickstarter

that allowed him to get the rights back and produce new episodes. I was excited to talk with Joel, and he was excited to do the interview, although he had been sick. He's feeling much better now, but you'll be able to hear that his voice is not totally back yet. And when we talked about that moment in his career, when he left the show in the early 90s, I asked him if he had any regrets.

It was regrettable the way it worked out, but I don't know if I see any other way around it. I was just having a real power struggle with my partner, a guy named Jim Mallon. You know what I mean? It wasn't working. And I didn't know what to do other than other than kind of, you know, it was like this. It's the King Solomon story, right? Like I knew that if I stayed and embedded myself and tried to fight with him, that it would pretty much kill the show, kill the baby. Right. And so by leaving, I knew that it would, it would live on. It would be okay. And I had a good deal set up, so it was okay. And I felt like I'd kind of proved my point. I created the show and I thought, I thought it was the best thing to do for the time. I just, what it wasn't at all. I, yeah, we weren't working it out. I don't know. I don't,

again, that's a maturity thing too. Whereas if the situation had happened now, I think I'd probably have a few tricks to work around it, but I didn't. And I didn't think the other guys were really backing me, the other partners. I think they were, I felt they were really backing Jim. So I just didn't feel supported and felt like, I think I can walk away from this. But yeah, it was a huge, uh, trap, kind of a public tragedy for me to have to go through it. It took a long time, a lot of time and a lot of long conversations with a lot of friends and therapists to kind of get it straightened out. And the thing that made the most sense for me was to come back to it. And when those guys had exhausted it and stopped and it laid kind of fallow for a while,

that's when I kind of started planning to bring it back. that's when I kind of started planning to bring it back. Joel's 2015 Kickstarter campaign was really successful. They earned over $6 million and produced 20 new episodes that were distributed on Netflix. They also got Patton Oswalt and Felicia Day to play the mad scientists that forced them to watch bad movies. Zip it, Heston! We don't have time to tie up loose ends. Instead, we need to tee up the next concept in movie mockery.

Max! Ladies and gentlemen of the world stage, prepare to witness the most mind-bending act of movie riffing ever attempted. Recently, Joel led another crowdfunding campaign to keep the show going indefinitely. This time, he's created an online platform called Gizmoplex that will be the future home of Mystery Science Theater. The site is live now, and he has two new human co-hosts, Jonah Ray and Emily Marsh. I wanted to find out, what is it like to make a show relevant, to keep it going, when the media landscape around him has changed so much since the show first began on basic cable. But first, I wanted to hear the origin story of Mystery Science Theater 3000.

I went to college in Minneapolis, and the art house cinemas in Minneapolis would routinely have Plan 9 from Outer Space or Robot Monster, these movies that were kind of, I don't know, considered film atrocities or something. They were just so weird. And I remember, you know, kind of saying to myself, wow, why isn't anybody making a show with these movies? These movies are like incredible. They're adorable. I remember prior to that, this moment in high school and the Wilkinson brothers were friends of mine and we were working on the Homecoming float. They had a stereo and we were listening to Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, the Elton John record. And there's these illustrations for every song. And there's one called I've Seen

That Movie Too. And it's this illustration that had theater seats and two people watching like a Clark Gable movie. I remember looking at that and going, oh, you know, that'd make a great TV show. Like you'd, you know, superimpose people in theater seats and have them like watch movies and say stuff. When I had a chance in my career to actually do something with it, and I had a career as a stand-up in the, you know, early 80s, like around 1982, I started seriously doing stand-up. I did four Saturday Night Lives and four late nights with David Letterman, and I did the Young Comedian special, and I toured. He is making his television debut tonight. He is a talented comedian, magician, and spy.

Comic, magician, spy. From Minneapolis, Joel Hodgson. I was kind of in that profile, if I would have kept going, that I could have maybe ended up in a sitcom. I think my career as a stand-up lasts about three years. I was getting kind of fed up with it and didn't really see where else I should go. I didn't really want them to build a sitcom around me. But one of the things that happened along the way was Jerry Seinfeld came to town and I got to hang out with him. And we were friends from L.A., but I got to spend time with him.

And I just had this opportunity to tell him what I thought and tell him what I was seeing. He said, look, I just got asked to do my first HBO special. Will you help me write it? That's so funny. I thought you were about to say, so I pitched him the idea for Mystery Science Theater, and he said, go do it. And because of Jerry Seinfeld, it exists. Well, it's kind of like that.

It actually is kind of like that, because I pitched him this idea for a sci-fi comedy, and he said, this isn't a show for me. This is a show for you. And I started to realize that, yeah, I was trying to dodge a bullet and not have to do it, not have to be on camera. Although you figured out a way and a way to be on camera and not on camera at the same time because you're mostly in silhouette. Yeah, I got pretty close. Yeah. Seventy five, 80 percent of the time you can't see me. And I think the lucky thing was, is that we did 22 shows locally on a UHF channel, KTMA. That really made all the difference in the world. I didn't have the chops or the discipline or even just the heat in Hollywood

to develop a show out of nothing. Sorry to interrupt you two, but are we still doing this movie thing or what? How long have you been listening? Since Thursday. By the time we had done it's something in the 20s, 24, 26. I don't know, these episodes, we made a cell tape and basically delivered it to Comedy Channel, which became Comedy Central. And of course, they greenlit the show. But his learning curve was just beginning. The rest of my conversation with Joel is after the break. was just beginning. The rest of my conversation with Joel is after the break.

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It's so gentle. We've never smelled so good. Shop Old Spice Total Body deodorant now. Mystery Science Theater began airing nationally in November of 1989, with an episode making fun of a 1958 B-movie called The Crawling Eye. I asked Joel, when they created the show, what percentage of the jokes and the riffing was improvised on the spot while they were watching the movies, and how much of it was figured out

or written down ahead of time? By the time we got paid to do it, which was the first season on Comedy Channel, which started with The Crawling Eye. And I really consider that the canon. That's really when the show started. I don't really count KTMA. I kind of think KTMA to me is more like us movie riffing at a party. That's what we were doing then, was just watching it and remarking. And then when we went and got paid to do it, we started writing it. For example, as far as riffs go, Crawling Eye has like 300 riffs.

Oh, look at that melky discharge. I think he has conjunctivitis. And by the end of the season, when we're doing like Black Scorpion, it's almost 600 riffs. Woo, a little onion, cayenne pepper. Woo, good stock, I guarantee. Now we can secure some of the actual poison from the scorpion eater, Rex. All right, serve the salad. So our hit rate just got bigger and bigger, and we started to kind of manifest more and more of the negative space that was available in these movies so to answer your question it's all

very carefully written and we just had tricks to make it sound spontaneous but it's all carefully written because you notice we don't interrupt each other very ever and if you did you'd really notice it but like oh go ahead uh what huh like that just doesn't happen oh my god they're totally blowing my mind i seriously was like would not have been surprised if you said oh yeah we just sat down and we just those were all of our reactions and we taped it and then said, you know, that was a fun two hours. Yeah, it'd be super cool if it was that easy, but it's not. And I think people, yeah, just give us way more credit than they should. Were you surprised when the show became a cultural phenomenon? I don't know if I ever looked at it as a cultural phenomenon, but I did look at it as a successful show. And that happened pretty quickly.

We were in top 10 lists, like right alongside The Simpsons and Twin Peaks and shows like that, that had just come out. That was just really a great feeling. As time goes on, though, just really a great feeling. As time goes on, though, it gets a little funnier because it's just then you have the internet happen and so much of it is just people remarking on media and just feeling like an obligation or a right or to just be able to comment. The technology allows that so much to happen. That's the part that is pretty crazy for me to see how common it is and how it's such a common function now for every person. And it never really was there for, you know, nice, normal people. Usually there were critics, right? And stuff like that.

know, nice, normal people. Usually there were critics, right. And stuff like that. That's so true when you think about it, because like, I can't watch the Oscars without the snarky, you know, commentary running on Twitter. And that's basically what you guys were doing. Yeah. It was one of those peculiar things that just, I mean, to me, it was a really obvious idea, but it hadn't been done yet. So I was just looking to land a show where I could be happy writing jokes and building props and puppets and stuff. And that's kind of what my goal was. So one thing I was wondering about is, what does it take to make a good movie

for a mystery science theater to make fun of? Because I mean, there's some movies that are just bad and or they're just like really low brow or low budget. And then there are movies that are, you know, kind of campy. And so like what are some what are the elements of a movie where you're like, yeah, this is this is a perfect MST movie to make fun of? There's something that happens with a movie that allows you to sign off on it and you just go into it. And it's usually a consistency with it's good storytelling and it allows you to just for whatever reason you trust it for whatever reason it makes you like it. It makes you trust it. If it stays there, then you have that experience.

You're not you. You're it. You're in the movie, you're watching it. Now, when that gets disrupted, when that's right away, not even in the cards, then you have this different thing that is a document of people pretending they're making a movie and you can see it for what it is. Now, after MST started, there suddenly became this kind of attitude like, oh, we have it both ways. We know we're a shitty movie and we're going to make fun of ourselves while we do it. That became kind of a thing. And that kind of made it harder for MST to use those movies to do what we did, which is kind of like, I mean, the way I look at it is we're kind of building a variety show on the back of a movie. a variety show on the back of a movie. You know, we're kind of using the movie to springboard and kind of go, well, I want to spend more time

talking about the way this character says laser. So we're going to do a sketch about that. It's really fun because we're all sharing the screen. And I guess that's what makes MST different is it was the first show that the people in the cast were sharing a screen with the people in the audience. So I found actually I found online there's a list of all the producers of the movies you made fun of that were really offended or or at least publicly commented they were not they thought you were

unfair to their movies. was that funny to you when that happened or like that they got offended or did that bother you at all the world we were in back then was so different now it's almost like as an audience member you just you just weren't expected to have an opinion and you weren't really the world is so different now. I mean, we're so there's just this expectation that you want to weigh in and have opinions about everything. Those guys, these people are movie executives or distributors, and they're really responsible for getting this stuff to you. And I just think they weren't expecting us to have a voice. They weren't expecting us to kind of do anything like that. And especially when you're a kid watching these movies, you think you're the only one seeing them because there was no place to kind of register

your frustration. You know, like, what do you do? It conquered the world. Let's say you're in eighth grade and you're watching it conquered the world and everything's kind of tracking. And then you see this, I think they call the Beulah, the, the creature is walking down the road and it's so absurd. You, you kind of think that you're the only one who can see it. You kind of feel like, is this just happening to me? You're ugly! Oral! I know you are, but what am I?

Try your intellect on me! Yeah, I'm from Venus. I'm your new boyfriend. You're the greatest slave of the world. I'll see you in hell first. There was no place back then to put all those feelings except for a thing like Mystery Science Theater. That's such an interesting point.

I mean, do you wonder, you know, in bringing back Mystery Science Theater now, do you feel like there's something slightly redundant about it? Because the world is now, all of social media now is mystery science theater. Well, it's just that our level of craft is so high. That's, I think, why it's meaningful, is we're so good at it. And I love the craft of it. I love finding the right riff and making something new out of it. it's derivative, right? We're creating derivative work out of these movies. And that's like the closest thing I'll ever come to art is that derivative, creating a derivative experience out of another thing.

Do you find that your sense of humor is different now? Because, I mean, we're all, I think, I don't know, generally speaking, I feel like I was a lot snarkier when I was younger. I don't know if you feel the same way. Yeah, I think so. You you get less. Yeah, you're right. You called it less snarky. I think like I'll give you an example. Like we riffed Eegah. You know that movie Eegah? It's with Arch Hall Jr. and Arch Hall Sr. Richard Keel is Eegah. Look, there's a ripple on that rock. Apparently Eegah covered the cave with muslin.

Oh, wait, wait. This one really good. I remember we were especially hard on Arch Hall Jr. Because Arch Hall Jr. was obviously like, we thought he was like little Lord Fauntleroy, like his dad put him in a movie and was going to build, you know, make him like Elvis. Man, it looks like it hurts to be him.

Don't love me. I was a fool. People in those rooms are calling the management right now. We didn't understand that these people were just really having a unique adventure. Arch Hall Jr. and Arch Hall Sr. And they just had the moxie and they had the intelligence to get the money together and to produce a movie. And I think I thought, oh, well, everybody makes a movie as a rich, you know, this rich white guy who's got, you know, a check handed to him and they get to, you know, get to make this movie. I finally did a comic con with Arch Hall Jr. And I got to learn his story. And he was so uninterested and

unaffected by what we had done because his life is so great. Like he's like a flying tiger and like pilots planes down to South America and just had this great life, this amazing life. And I just started to understand like, no, these guys were, you know, this father and son were like real adventurers to go after trying to make a movie. In a lot of ways, they were exactly, they were successful at it. They pulled it off. They did a road show with it where they toured, driving movie theaters and arch hall said oh yeah he'd get on top of the snack bar and plug in his amp and do songs and richard keel was out walking around and banging car hoods with his big you know great big club dressed as a caveman and

i started to understand that actually these this guy's kind of my hero, you know, that he did this. And so that's the difference that I kind of think age brings. Whereas when I was younger, I just wrote him off and said, oh, he's this privileged kid who got to make a movie. saw him as, oh, these people were really bold. This family was very bold to make this movie, and they have something to show for it at the end of the day. So I guess my thinking is different about what it takes to make a movie and who these people are who make these movies. But does that also change the way you approach the movies as you in the new episodes? I mean, I couldn't tell you. I mean, there's so much involved in each episode. There's, I don't know, 700 riffs and they all kind of are seen together. It's like it's like making lace or something, you know, it's like weaving. And so all these all these things go together. And I don't know how, how different it is, but I do think that, um, the attitude is

different for me at least, but I, but again, I'm 62. I was, um, you know, 30 when I created the show. So I'm different. Yeah. I'm definitely different. So you're, you're basically sort of an executive producer in this one. I wasn't sure I was going to ask you, are you on camera at all in this new version? I do a couple of episodes. I'm in three of them. Two of them are episodes that I riff. And then the third one is one where all Emily, Jonah, and I all riff together. Do you hope that the show eventually just keeps going like someday without you?

You know, that it just you could have a sort of mystery science theater, you know, endless amount of reboots of it? tend to do. And we have really great people now that can direct and essentially keep it rolling when I'm done. So yeah, I want to retire and make it so it can keep going. That is it for this week. Thank you for listening and special thanks to Joel Hodgson. My assistant producer is Stephanie Billman. You can follow the show on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. If you really like Imaginary Worlds, please leave a review wherever you get your podcasts or a shout-out on social media. That helps people discover the show.

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