Imaginary Worlds - Say No to Santa World Tour: An Audio Drama

Episode Date: December 17, 2025

In my annual audio drama, I interview several folklore figures who are synonymous with the holiday season outside America -- but they’ve been overshadowed by the cultural juggernaut of Santa Claus. So they’re on a tour to reintroduce themselves. While I went into this press junket with the best of intensions, some of my interviews went off the rails. It turns out when a supernatural being has been around for centuries, their personal history can get complicated. Featuring André Refig, Vili-Oskari Körkkö, Begonya Ferrer, Teresa Mastrobuono, and Bill Lobley. There will be no episode of Imaginary Worlds on December 31st. The show will return on January 14th. Happy Holidays, everyone! This episode is sponsored by MiracleMade and Uncommon Goods Get 15% off your order at uncommongoods.com/imaginary. Go to TryMiracle.com/IMAGINARY to save over 40%, and when you use promo code IMAGINARY, you’ll get an extra 20% off plus a free 3-piece towel set. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to Imaginary Worlds. I'm Eric Malinsky. When I began this podcast years ago, I always knew that I wanted to do episodes where I don't just cover imaginary worlds. I wanted to create them as well. In previous episodes, I've interviewed vampires, Captain Hook, H.P. Lovecraft's brain in a jar, the ghosts of Christmas, past, present, and future, and three different versions of James Bond. I decided that I wanted to make audio dramas an annual tradition and keep one foot in an imaginary world. So sit back, relax, and for the rest of the episode, suspend your disbelief. Christmas is almost here, but you knew that already because Santa Claus has been everywhere. The funny thing is, Santa, as we know him, hasn't been around that long.

He used to be one of many benevolent beings that appeared around the holidays. Today, those other entities are in danger of being completely overshadowed by the cultural juggernaut of Santa Claus. So a group of them are banding together to do a PR campaign. They're calling it the say no to Santa World Tour. I was invited to a press junket to meet some of these mythical beings. I was not going to turn down an invitation like that, even though press junkets can be a bit of a grind. The event took place at a swanky hotel in Soho. I went up to the seventh floor, and I saw this tall, thin man with a clipboard and a headset.

He had a long white beard and a red cloak with a hood. That was Pierre Noel, the French equivalent to Santa Claus. He was also the organizer of the tour. He looked like if Santa had a younger brother, who was much more cosmopolitan. Oh, hello. Good morning. I am Per Noelle. You're from imaginary worlds? Yes. Bonjour. Je pral French. I'll take that as a yes. Well, you are Eric Molinsky. Yes, yes.

Okay. Well, they are ready for it. you. Oh, already. Of course. We are not a bunch of pagans worshipping trees. Oh, no, no. I, I, no. I just usually have to wait a while for these press junkets. That's all of us. Ah, well, we are very organized, all of your guests have been wired with microphones already. Wow. Cool. Okay, so your first interview is with Yolopuki. I, sorry, forgive my ignorance. I don't know who is Yolapuki. Well, he is known as the Yule Goat. He originates in Finland. We've paired him with the Yule lads who are from Iceland.

It just made sense thematically, and they gave us limited rooms at the hotel. But Yolopuki is not happy. He would like you to focus on him and only him. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, if a lot of those kids are running around. Oh, no, no, no, no. They are not children. No, no, no.

The Yule lads are more like... I don't know, like your seven dwarves from Snow White. Oh, interesting. Do they actually have names that describe their personalities to? As a matter of fact, yes, they do. But they are not cute names like, I don't know, sleepy or bashful or grumpy or things like that. No, no. They have names like pot scraper, bowl, list.

liquor, sausage swiper. Wow. But they mainly steal. They steal food, kitchenware, other household items. They also bother the livestock, which is not a problem here, of course. There is also one called window peeper. Window peeper? In English, you would call him a peeping tom.

Oh. He is harmless. But the others, they will be. a little curious about all your equipment, so you better keep an eye on it. Okay. Sartana, get back here. That was my lunch. Oh, hi. Sorry, I'm Eric. I assume those are the you lads there. Yes, you are correct. They are awful.

They're also like crazy fast, too. I told Pierre, I have nothing to do with them. They are clearly from Iceland. I am Finnish. This is not a proper introduction. I am a Yolupukki. Nice to meet you. So Pierre Noel told me that your name means Yulgo.

Did I get that right? Roughly, yes. Okay. So what's the connection? Because I mean, like, I mean, listeners can't see this. But the person I'm talking to looks basically like Santa Claus. Well, I'm not the man that I used to be. I wasn't even a man in the early days.

Would you like some tea? No, no, thank you. Well, if you don't mind, I'd like to have some. Yeah, go ahead, please. Oh, God. Go away for five minutes. Let's, yeah, let's just try to ignore them. So what makes you stand out?

Why should people know about you and be interested in your story instead of, you know, Santa, the other guy with the beard and the red coat that they already know and love. Well, I am similar to your Santa Claus, but I'm not so rude as to come down a chimney uninvited. I ring the doorbell and politely ask, which roughly translates to, are there any well-behaved children in here?

Wow, that is actually very different from Santa Claus who comes down the chimney totally. uninvited. Although I guess there was something kind of mischievous about that with Santa that may be kids like. Do you, I mean, do you worry that you may come across as like a nice school teacher

in a way? As I said, I wasn't always this way. I used to demand gifts instead of giving them like I do nowadays. You demanded gifts, really? This was ages ago. I was called

Nootipukki. Back then. and there was a quite a big pack of us we were quite unruly much like these little imps who keep trying to ruin my day

I can't imagine that I seem like the most opposite to those little to the U-Lads as possible I matured well what did you do when you were young and you had your your pack of I can't pronounce the

Nutipuki is it Yeah Nootipuki Yeah so what did you do What did you do when you were with your pack? We'd go from house to house, eating people's food, drinking their beer, and they couldn't refuse us. Why? Were you threatening them? I don't know what you've seen. But we did not boil children alive or eat animals raw.

I can't speak for all the nutty-pukis, but it's not something I ever did or anyone I traveled with. I did not know that that's like a thing that people had thought or accused you of doing. So, yeah. There are drawings of us on the internet that are not true. However, we would scare the animals and the children and the servants. We would sometimes destroy their gardens. But if we got the food and beer we wanted, we'd write on the walls that this family has paid.

its deaths. They would not be bothered again. Until next year, of course. God, it's worse than, um, do you know Santa Con? Who is Santa Con? It's not a person. It's a event in New York where people get dressed like Santa Claus

and they go in pub crawls and get really drunk and annoying. Oh, I wasn't dressed like this. I had huge horns. I did drink a lot from home to home. So in That sense, it was similar.

Tell him about the ghosts. Oh my God. There's a U-lad out the window. That's window, peeper. How is he standing outside the window? We're like on the seventh floor. Magic. Just try to ignore him.

Okay. Wait, did he say something about a ghost? Oh, yes. Around the new year, the veil between the living and the dead is very thin. You don't want to see what an evil spirit can do. to the living. But the dead were scared of us. We kept them at bay.

So we were a necessary evil, as you say. Wow. So you were such an unruly gang that the evil spirits of the dead were as afraid of you as the living. That's kind of, that's kind of impressive in a way. It's also like the opposite of everything I associate with Christmas. I mean, when did you become you? Well, it was about a hundred years ago.

Not everyone liked having their family scared, their homes defaced, their alcohol depleted. And the dead weren't coming around as much in the modern world. So, I decided to clean up my act. Some of the nootty-puckies never grew up. They're still out there. They're not a disruptive and they are on the margins. As Yolubuki, the person you see in front of you today, I am welcomed into people's homes. That's amazing that you've gone from people being terrified of you showing up at their homes to being polite and welcomed.

It's like, um, it's a redemption story. It's funny, because I was thinking about, um, crampus. Do you know about crampus? What about crampus? Well, I mean, he was also like this scary, goat-like figure who was associated with Christmas, and he didn't have much of a presence in the U.S., but he's huge now. Like, he's, he's like, there was a Hollywood movie about him, I don't know, maybe like 10 years ago. And there's like, there are parades in honor of Crampus all over the U.S. Like, he's, it's almost like when, like, when a European band has been around for a while and then all of a sudden they have like a number one hit in the U.S.

He's almost like that. And, I mean, I don't think Crampus had to. change at all in a way. Crampus is a total badass. You know what? Fuck, Crampus. What? I was much more of a badass than Crampus ever was.

People feared me. But they told me I had to change. I did everything they asked me to. No, and you were right. I mean, you seem happy with this story. Like you seem like you're proud of how much you've changed. I kept telling Crampus he was going to become irrelevant. He didn't change a goddamn thing.

And now he's more popular than ever. Here I am wearing this stupid red suit, looking like a copy of your Santa Claus. I am the Yule goat. Oh God, you're growing horns. Hey, give me that. The heat in my bedroom is dependent on an old radiator, and I feel like it has two attitudes. Either, I don't care if it's freezing outside, I don't feel like working, or I'm up for it now,

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Let's get back to the say-no-to-santa press junket at a hotel in Soho. Something tells me that that did not go well. Well, it was good at first, and then, so I mentioned Crampus's name. Why did you mention Crampus in front of Yolopoqui? If you had warned me not to, I wouldn't have done it. I thought you would know. You will not be so ignorant, but this is why we are doing this so that people are not so ignorant. Well, your next interview is with Bephanna.

She is known as the Italian Christmas Witch. The Italian Christmas Witch. She is a dear. In fact, many people in Italy want to move away from Santa Claus and embrace their cultural heritage with Bephanna. Okay, great. Cool. So enjoy. I will come for you when your next interview is ready. Okay, thanks. Yes.

Hi, hello. Hi, I'm Eric. Oh, hello, Eric. I am Bufona. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. So Pierre told me that you're the Christmas witch. Well, that is what they call me. But I am a good. good witch. Okay. It's funny, I'm used to a witch being part of Halloween or, you know, a good witch being like, like the Wizard of Oz or something. Like I, I never thought of a witch being associated with, like, the holiday season. Well, that's what they call me. They call me a witch. But that is just how I appear today. I've gone through quite a journey. May I tell you

about it? Yes, please. That's why I'm here. Very good. You know of the three wives. men. Yeah. Well, they were on their way to Bethlehem. They had brought gifts for the young babe in the manger, but, you know, their men, they don't ask directions, so they were lost. You know, it's not easy to use the stars to navigate. So I gave them directions. Without me, they wouldn't have made it there. Wow. So did you even, were you curious where they're going? Well, no, not at first. I mean, they were just. men. They asked me to join them, but I did not want to leave my home. I had so much to do. But once they left, you know, I thought, then I had a change of heart. I had a bit of what you

would call, how you say, como said it, a FOMO today. Oh, yeah, yeah, FOMO, yeah, fear of missing out. Yes, well, anyway, so I ran after them with a present for the baby. I could not catch up. up, even on my flying broom. You know, I am a witch, after all. Right, right, yeah. So, I spent then many years looking for that special baby. In the meantime, I leave presents every year for the well-behaved children. And for the naughty children, I leave a coal or an onion.

And I try not to come down a chimney. Oh, no, that would fill the room with soot. I am an excellent host and an excellent guest after I leave someone's home every time I always sweep with the floor it's a way to also sweep out the whole year because you know I arrive on the 6th of January

it's so funny I I'm embarrassed to admit that I actually haven't heard of you before well you know I wouldn't fit the marketing of an American corporation. Did you know? Santa Claus wasn't as popular as he is today until Coca-Cola put him in their advertising? He had been around for a while, a long time, trying on different low skinny fat, but it was Coca-Cola that made him a star. Yeah, I mean, I've heard that before. I get a little, I mean, it wasn't like he was kicking around the vaudeville circuit and

And then Coke discovered him. Because I mean, at least in the U.S., he at that point was already popular. He was, he looked almost like Santa as we know him. But, yeah, I mean, Coke definitely had a big part in kind of solidifying his look, locking into place. And then, you know, yeah, those ads were seen all over the world. So Coke definitely made him a global star. But would Coca-Cola put an older woman on their products? Of course not.

An older man is fine, right? He's distinguished, jolly, but an older woman is called a witch. So I am the Christmas witch. You know, though, there's a cake called Tort de Baffana. It's delicious, not something you can be packaged with artificial flavors, the colors, the chemicals, and sit on the supermarket shelf for years. would you like a piece?

Sure. That's like the cake right there. That's it. Yes, yes. Try it. Go ahead. Mange. It's good. Of course. Thank you. So do you have like a, like I just talked to Yolapuki, who's got like this long past going back to pagan roots. Is that similar for you two? Well, of course. The three wise men were in the times of ancient Rome. Oh, very, very good. Of course, yeah. Back then, though, I was a goddess for renewal and abundance.

I was young, beautiful, and powerful. Oh, people offered me, came to me all kinds of gifts. They asked for my blessings and give them their heart's desire. But over time, my essence was fading away. All the ancient gods were disappearing. When was this? Oh, maybe a thousand years ago. Ah, that makes sense.

So this would be like the early Middle Ages. Yes, yes. That's the time, the one. But I was not going to go quietly like the others. I needed to give people what they wanted. So I gave myself a makeover. But you know, this was an ugly makeover, not a normal makeover. I went from young to old, from a goddess to a housekeeper.

And I summoned the power I had left to go back in time and insert myself right into the story of those three wise men. Wait, wait. So then I'm confused. So then that, that didn't happen originally? Well, of course, yes, it did happen, but not originally. Oh, wow. You retconned yourself. What? I'm sorry? So retcon is shorthand for retroactive continuity. It means you gave yourself a backstory that you didn't have, but now it's canon. They do it all the time in franchises like Star Wars.

I don't know what Star Wars is, but they made like Princess Leia and DeLuke Skywalker's sister. That was clearly not the original plan, but then now it's canon. Yeah, if you say so. So it sounds like you didn't mind the fact that you went from young to old, from a goddess to a housekeeper? Well, yeah, well, of course I minded. But as you said, it was the Middle Ages, and you have to change with the times.

But then once I made it finally into the modern world, I could feel my essence. Again, it started to fade. Then I got another boost. Oh, what happened? I was put forth as the centerpiece, the main person of the hot. holiday season as a rejection of Santa Claus.

When was this? The point is, a generation of children fell in love with me all over again. Today, I'm so celebrated. Today, in the north of Italy, people create scarecrows and puppets of me to welcome the New Year. In Venice, famous Venice, there are gondola races dedicated to me. a New Year's Day in Rome and people do what they call

the Bafana dive and they jump into the cold river Wow yeah they do something similar to that here in New York too on New Year's Day they jump into the into Coney Island the water there so actually I want to go back to you you said that you were there was like this time

when you were like put forth in the modern times or whatever like you were put forth is the centerpiece of the holiday season like a rejection of Santa clause, was there like a person, like a specific person who really like put you back in the spotlight? Yes. Okay. I mean, have I heard of this? Is there a person there, a person I would have heard of? Yes, I'm sure you have. It was, well, it was Mussolini.

Mussolini? I had no say in the matter. I was just doing my usual thing. And then sudden, I am everywhere, but I'm everywhere with him. He is the one handing out the presents instead of me to the children. And you know he called me? La Befana fascista. Do you think that was my choice? Oh, no, no, never, but he is gone. Thank goodness.

He is history. Speaking of history, did you know, in the 1970s, the Italian government tried to, take my holiday off the calendar. But the parents wouldn't hear of it. They took their children out of school and protested. After many years, they finally got my holiday put back on the calendar. Wow.

So I actually have a follow-up question about Mussolini. I have said all that I can say about that. Well, I mean, I don't, I just don't think it's like a subject we should just sort of brush past really quickly. You know the American movie star, Angelica Houston? Yeah, Angelica Houston, yeah. She is planning to make a live-action animated movie where she is going to play me. I did not know that.

Uh-huh, yes, it's true. The film is called The Christmas Witch Trial of La Bifana. Yeah, yeah. And this interview is starting to feel like the trial of Bifana. No, I mean, it's been a lot. This conversation has been very lovely so far. I don't want it to get awkward. I really don't.

Any one of my age is going to have a complicated past. There is only so much of that I can. Recone, you said. Recone. Yeah, yeah. No, I get that. I get that you can't recone. Do you know who is not here today, who you forgot?

Do you know who was not invited to this press tour? Sinterklaas. Isn't he like the Dutch Santa Claus? Yes. Yes, but also. Oh, he is the one who comes with a group of men called Black Pete. Yes, that's the one. Have you seen what a Black Pete looks like?

Yes, he's usually like a white guy wearing blackface makeup and like a bushy wig. Some of the Black Peets refuse to change. They say, this is a misunderstanding. The black makeup is supposed to be soot from the chimney. They are problematic. They are stuck in the past. I am not. Yeah, I get it.

I totally get it. So, yeah, well, let's move forward. Yes, let's. Okay, yeah. I wonder where, you know, Pierre said he was going to come get me when he was ready. And I thought we're, I feel like we're kind of tight on time. Take your time. You should have more of your tort de buffan before you go while you're waiting. No, I'm

fine. I'm good, thanks. You liked it before. I know, but you know, I haven't had lunch yet, so it's like, you know, it's good. It's very rich, so I'm good. Thank you so much. It is not a fascist cake, you know. I know, you know, yeah, let me one more bite for the road. Really good. Pierre, I think we're all set At Capital One

We're more than just a credit card company We're people just like you Who believe in the power of yes Yes to new opportunities Yes to second chances Yes to a fresh start That's why we've helped over four million Canadians get access to a credit card

Because at Capital One we say yes So you don't have to hear another no What will you do with your yes? Get the yes you've been waiting for at Capital One.ca slash yes. Terms and conditions apply. Your talk with Bephena? It went well? Yeah, yeah, sure. You don't sound convinced.

No, no, no, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. Who's next? Okay. Next, we have you scheduled with El Tio de Nadal. Are they Spanish? They are Catalan. Ah, okay. I've been to Barcelona. it. And don't focus on the smell. The what? You're a log. There's just a log here. I am a log. What are you? I'm a human. Okay, so my listeners can't see you, but like I'm talking to a log.

Like an actual log. He has like a little face and a red hat and a plaid blanket and he's standing on wooden legs. You're really cute. Thank you. So it's funny. Pierre said I shouldn't worry about the smell, but you smell like wood, like firewood. Like, it's a nice smell. Yeah, but wait for Christmas because I haven't started pooping yet. My smell changes in Christmas. I'm sorry, I may not have totally understood you. Did you just say you haven't started, you didn't say you started pooping yet? Sure, but not yet. In the days before Christmas, the children feed me fruits, cookies, tangerines, everything. Every day, all day, giving me fruit and fruits and fruits.

I'm full. And then, on Christmas Day, they beat me with a stick very hard until I poop out candies and little presents. They sing a song when they hit me. Do you want to hear the song? Sure. Do you understand Catalan? I don't. I took a little Spanish in high school.

I mean, would you be able to sing in English? Mm, okay, I'll try to translate the lyrics in English. It's something like, poop, lug, poop, Christmas little luck, don't poop, hairings, they are too salty, give us some sweets, some tasty treats. If you don't give gifts, we'll hit you with a stick. Poop, luck, poop. Do you want to hear the version in Catalan? Uh, no, I think that's okay.

Okay. I bet you're wondering why I wear a blanket. That wasn't actually my first question I was going to ask, but okay, why are you wearing a blanket? Because it's very cold. And always I'm in the floor, so it's very cold in here. I need a blanket. Right. Right, right, right. So, you know, I have a question. I'm just going to ask it. Like, were you, were you by any chance, like, brought back by Franco? You mean, the dictator, Franco? Yeah, the dictator, Franco.

No. What could you ask me about Franco? Well, I, yeah, I'm sorry. I just, like, the last person I talked to was connected to Mussolini, so I just thought, like, maybe this is, like, a thing that these, these old cultures were brought back, maybe by, by 20th century dictators? I'm not Bafana. I'm the poop lock. No, I get that, I get that, but I guess I'm trying to ask, like, why?

Like, I'm sorry, where do you come from? No one knows. It's a very old tradition. Nobody knows? In these days, there was no internet. So nobody could say, I'm creating this tradition for this reason. I write it in the internet. Right. No, no, no, I get that. I get that. It's just that everybody seems to have like a story.

So that's what I was wondering, like, what your story is to explain why you are a pooping log. Have you heard of the book Everyone Poops? I have, yes. And do you know that everyone poops? Yes, yes. Do you poop, Eric? Uh, yeah, of course, of course. I'm sure you do.

Does everyone write as late poops by flyer-rinder and deliver presents to millions of children? Presents are made by elves and a difficult working conversation? conditions? Who can't relate to that? But yes, everyone poops. The children poops. The children have beds and they see their cats and dogs pooping every day. That's the nature. Right. No, that's true. Yes. I mean, they don't eat their cats and dogs with sticks until they poop out presents. But yeah, I get your point. Eric, what do you do? What do you do? What do you like your favorite food? What do you make a podcast? It's just something that you do.

You do know that without Coca-Cola, Santa Claus would not be as popular as he is today? Yes, I do know that. Everyone keeps to bring that up. But, you know, the funny thing is I actually don't have a problem with that. I mean, just maybe because, like, I actually, like, everyone who knows me, like, everyone who knows me knows that I love Coke. Not that I don't like the Diet Coke. I don't like any of the flavors. I just, like, really love classic Coca-Cola.

So it doesn't, I guess that doesn't bother me as much. Really? Listen to yourself. Giving free advertising to a drink that is full of... Nobody knows what. They won't even tell you what is in it. Not really. They say it's a secret formula. And you can hit a can of coke with a stick and it won't pop out its secret formula. Even if it did, it would just be chemicals that you even cannot pronounce. You are the one who is culturally brainwashed. Hmm. God, every one of these interviews has kind of gone off the rails.

I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry. I really, I did not mean to offend you. Hmm, thank you. But don't worry, you're not the first person to think I'm funny or strange or weird. I know. I'm sure you get this a lot and I, you know, yeah. No, I don't.

I think you're, I mean, I do think you're funny like in a fun way. Like, I think you're fun. You're, um, I mean, you're, you're very cute. Uh, you're really kind of adorable, so. Okay. Thank you. Maybe we can be friends one day. Yeah. I mean, not one day. Maybe today. I'm, I'm totally, like, yes, like, let's be friends now. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm going to come home and I'm going to tell people I met a poop blog and we can take a selfie if you want. I'm totally, I would love to be friends. Okay. I agree. So now we are friends. I know it's not Christmas yet, but do you want to beat me with a stick?

Yeah, I guess. Sure. Okay, so let's go. Okay, I guess I'll just pick up this stick and whack you with it. Oh, no. Wait, is that? Santa. It's the real thing. Isn't that a Coke slogan?

I told him not to come, but he has to make a spectacle. You are not satisfied being everywhere for the past two months. You have to make an appearance here, too. Come on, this thing is a real downer. I want to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony. That's definitely a Coke slogan. Ah, well, the beings that Eric spoke with today are original voices. Anything that was ever different or interesting or original about you was completely erased by marketers and advertising people and it was all replaced with something or bland and palatable that you can slap onto every single product.

Oh, that's why I'm worth over $8 billion a year. My cue score is off the charts. Taste the feeling. I'm sorry about that. It's okay. It's okay. Actually, it kind of puts things in perspective. Well, in that case, I hope you got everything that you needed today. Yeah, I think so. Although, actually, we didn't talk about you. Oh, yes, of course.

Well, I am the French equivalent of that man who rudely interrupted us. But in France, children don't leave stocking. they leave their shoes by the fireplace, filled with carrots and treats for my donkey. You have a donkey? Yes. Is he like a magical donkey that flies over France like Santa's reindeer? No, he is just a donkey. I also have a companion named Le Per Fuetard.

I bring presents, but he doles out corporal punishment for naughty children. He used to be an evil butcher. He slaughtered three children and cut them into pieces. He salted and marinated their remains for seven years, which is a long time to cure meat. But luckily, that was enough time for me to discover his crime. I brought the children back to life and turned him into my servant. Wow, you really kind of buried the lead on that one.

Eric, people are weird, huh? Families are weird, you know. culture is weird. Do you want to only stick with something that may have been satisfying to you as a child, but now it just feels like, I don't know, like empty calories, like junk food? Or do you want something rich and unusual? Something earthy, where you can still taste the minerals of the soil of the culture? When you expect your life to be perfect like an advertisement,

you are setting yourself up for disappointment. That's very true. Ah, speak of the devil. Who is Eric Molinski? Is that your butcher, serial killer servant? Oh, he doesn't kill anymore. But I hope you're not afraid of whips. I think I should probably get going.

Hey, that's my microphone. That is it for this week. Thank you for listening. Special thanks to André Rafi, Vili Oskara Gurka, Begonia Forerer, Teresa Mastro Buono, and Bill Loebly. My assistant producer is Stephanie Billman. If you want to know more about Crampus,

I did a whole episode about him in 2021. We have another show called Between Imaginary Worlds. It's a more casual chat show that it's only available to listeners who pledge on Patreon. In the most recent episode, I talked with Dallas Taylor, the host of the podcast, 20,000 Hertz. We discussed all the secrets he learned about the Disney theme parks at his recent trip to Disney Imagineering headquarters. Between Imaginary Worlds comes included with the ad-free version of the show that you can get on Patreon. You can also buy an ad-free subscription on Apple Podcasts. If you donate to the show on Patreon at different levels, you also get either free Imaginary World stickers, a mug, or a t-shirt, and a link to a Dropbox account, which has a full-length interviews of every guest in every episode.

You can subscribe to the show's newsletter at imaginaryworldspodcast.org. The show will be back on January 14th. Happy holidays, everybody.