Imaginary Worlds - The Battle to Make Star Wars

Episode Date: September 24, 2025

Movies that change cinema often come from outsiders – whether it’s Orson Welles making Citizen Kane or George Lucas making Star Wars a.k.a. Episode IV: A New Hope. The excellent graphic novel Lucas Wars by artist Renaud Roche and writer Laurent Hopman just came out in English (the original French title is Les Guerres de Lucas.) I talk with Renaud and Laurent about why the making of Star Wars was such a long shot, and how the production changed the lives of everyone involved. Plus, we discuss the unsung heroes who helped make Star Wars happen -- like Lucas’s ex wife Marcia and studio mogul Alan Ladd Jr.   Imaginary Worlds was just nominated for a Signal Award for Best Arts & Culture podcast! That also means the show is eligible for a Listener's Choice Award. You can vote for the show at vote.signalawards.com. The deadline is October 9th. Thank you! This episode is sponsored by Hims and Remi. Go to shopremi.com/IMAGINARY and use the code IMAGINARY to get up to 50% off your nightguard at checkout. For simple, online access to personalized and affordable care for hair loss and more, visit Hims.com/IMAGINARY. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you're with Amex Platinum, you get access to exclusive dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best tapas in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca. td bank knows that running a small business is a journey from startup to growing and managing your business that's why they have a dedicated small business advice hub on their website to provide

tips and insights on business banking to entrepreneurs no matter the stage of business you're in visit td.com slash small business advice to find out more or to match with a td small business banking account manager You're listening to Imaginary Worlds, a show about how we create them and why we suspend our disbelief. I'm Eric Milinski. One of the reasons I've been learning French is because there are so many French language comic books and graphic novels that I wanted to read, but they weren't translated into English. Last year, I read a French graphic novel about the making of Star Wars, and I want to pronounce the title of the book and the name of the authors correctly, even though I know this is. going to sound really pretentious in the middle of my American accent in English.

But here we go. The graphic novel is called Le Gere de Luca, and it's by Laurent Oopman and Ronor Roche. The English language translation just came out, and the title in English is Lucas Wars. And I'm going to keep referring to this movie as Star Wars, since that's what it was called in 1977. Lucas added Episode 4 A New Hope during one of the re-releases. Now, in August, I played an episode about the making of Jaws, and there are a lot of similarities. Star Wars and Jaws were surprised hits in the 1970s that captured the zeitgeist and changed Hollywood forever. They were also directed by young men who instantly became celebrity filmmakers, and both films had a very difficult time getting made.

And like Jaws, Star Wars is a movie that I thought I knew a lot about, but I learned so many things that surprise me when I read this graphic novel. And the style of the book reminds me of storyboards for a film. All the action is laid out with a very elegant clarity, and the line quality is economical, but very expressive. Lucas is the main focus of the book, but there's also a Roshaman effect, where we get to see the same events through the eyes of different people. And since it's a graphic novel, we also get to go inside Lucas's head, as he remembers his childhood, or imagines what Star Wars would look like. And those illustrations in the graphic novel were based on early pre-production designs for Star

Wars and for the prequels, since Lucas reused some of those ideas later on. I got to speak with the writer Laurent Oatman and the artist Renaud Roche. They both speak English and they're lifelong Star Wars fans. But Laurent says that they had another reason why they wanted to make this book. This is maybe not the most known story about Star Wars. We always talk about the way the movies were made, the special effects, but rarely about how the people made this movie, all these people, especially Lucas, what they lived through to make this happen.

So this was a really inspiring story that we wanted to share, and that was the starting point. To prepare, Laurent and Renault read every memoir in interview that they could find by anybody who worked on Star Wars, which is a lot. The bibliography at the end of the book is huge. Laurent said that one of the biggest surprises for him was learning how important George Lucas's ex-wife Marcia was in the creation of Star Wars. She's really, really an interesting character, and it was really interesting. to put her up front in the story and to show how pivotal she was in all of this. So all these people in the shadows, this is what was really interesting for me. Yeah, his relationship with Marsha was really interesting. I mean, she's emotional support.

She's a sounding board, but she made very specific suggestions. She was the one who said, you need to cast Harrison Ford. She was the one who suggested killing off Obi-1 Kenobi. Was it challenging for both of you to write and draw these, you know, these are intimate conversations they're having in bed together? To draw, I guess, something like this, a bit casual. You inspire on your own life, I guess, you know. It's pretty, yeah, common, yeah, to see them and to be with them in the private life. I mean, I guess this is what it's fascinating also, you know.

And as a public, as admirers of those talents, you always want to feel how they felt, especially during those time of creation and when they literally change the world of movies industry. It's a way to connect to them. It's a way to generate empathy into the readers. But it's also challenging to depict the these moments that we have no documentation for how they behaved privately. But in any case, it was never a question for me of tweaking reality just to make the story more intense. At the core of this story, you have the facts because it's a true story, and you have

a certain number of events and a timeline, and that's unchangeable. When you try to do a graphic novel like that, as far as I'm concerned, it's very important to remain true to the facts. Of course, you decide how to stage them, to bring certain moments into the spotlight more than others, because you want to make as gripping a story as possible. But without inventing anything. So reverting back to the documentation, that's the way to try to understand the characters, And when you depict them in a private situation,

you hopefully have understood their character, their personality well enough to present them in a truthful manner. Oh, no, I love the way you captured Lucas's body language because he's a person who keeps his emotions bottled up. And I could feel in the way you drew him, always how he felt. Was that just instinctive as you were skis? getting things out? Yes, and no, because I guess, you know, I come from the future animation.

This is really my formation, my education in heart. And so we were very focused back in the days into, yes, the body language and how to express emotion not only by face expression, but also the whole body. It's very, very important. And also I spent quite a lot of time to watch archives of him, both photographic and video, to analyze how he was behaving, especially at that time when he was quite slim. And you can feel that he was not very comfortable maybe with his body. and also there was some humility you know it's the the shoulder was a bit down and and a bit

I don't know how to say this in English but in French you say Rentre it means like it's turned on the inside in a way you know so it says something about someone that is not like the chest you know in front of everyone is not showing his most sort of whatever in the contrary it's it's an indication of shyness and so yeah it was quite easy to transcript in a way to those attitudes but but also yeah that's what's fun it's like when you can push a bit more the expression it's really pay-offs you know because it's so rare And in his case, particularly, it happened so few that when it finally happened in the book, it means something. Have you ever seen Carrie Fisher, there was a big celebration of George Lucas, and she was giving a speech, and she said something like, people asked us if we knew Star Wars was going to be a hit.

And he said, we all knew it was going to be a hit. But since George never has any facial expressions, we didn't want to tell him because we wanted to see what his reaction would be. Yeah, yeah, I'm not surprised that she could have said that, yeah. Well, speaking about it, so now, another relationship that's fascinating in the book is, and Carrie Fisher revealed in a memoir she wrote before she died that she and Harrison Ford had an affair on the set, and it plays out like a romantic drama, and also, too, we're used to, if I ever see Harrison Ford or Carrie Fisher from that time drawn, it's like in a Star Wars comic, and there's a stiffness to them.

First of all, were all these details from Carrie Fisher's memoir, and what was it like writing and drawing that out? Yes, she's the main source for this anecdote, and we're lucky that she decided to share this incredible romance that they had on set, because otherwise we would never have known about it. So, yes, she's the main source, and she gives quite a lot of details in her book. So that was, everything that's written in the graphic novel is from there and all the details are true as far as she's concerned. And at the same time, we don't shy away from reminding the readers that he was married at the time and she was very much younger than he was.

When she tells about it in her book, she hints at a few things, including. including the way that she was drunk and maybe she was also under his influence. And, well, it was a complicated relationship to say this. Yeah, it's very complicated because obviously if you could ask if she wasn't drunk, maybe nothing would have happened with him at that time. But still, she had a big crush for sure before this day. this evening. And so I guess, yeah, she let it go. And that's the saddest part. I guess is the week after because finally she really felt in love with him, I guess, you know, quite strongly

as you can do when you are a 19-year-old girl. And of course, it was a dead end. It was and he was very cool, very Harrison Ford aware about all this. that you can understand also, you know. Maybe he thought she was on the same vibe and it was not, you know. But the good thing is that they remain friends and there was no trouble for them on the next movies. Yeah. Again, the way you both handled it with the writing and the way you drew the body language

and everything. And she, like you said, there are moments that she seems so young, you know, when she finds out she's Princess Leia, that drawing of her. where she's leaping in the air, and, you know, I think she said, like, Je suis la Princess Leia, like in French, in Beverly Hills, screaming in French, but no. Yeah, that's something, that's, it's funny, but this is, this actually happened because she said that she ran in the rain, it rarely weighs in Beverly Hills, but that time it rained, and she went in the street, she didn't took up the phone, and she, she, she went in the street,

screaming with joy. A part of me wishes I could walk around New York City dressed like Luke Skywalker in a new hope. That outfit just looks so comfy. The white shirt, that's like a robe held together with a belt, baggy khakis and boots that look like they were rolled around his legs. I mean, it's New York, so I can wear whatever I want and nobody would care. But if I want to look just as stylish on our planet,

I can chop at the perfect gene. I got a pair of jeans from them that fit great and look great, not too baggy and not too tight. And they have so many options to customize jeans so you can get them just the way you like them. But to really get that Tatawine look, they offer Denkakis, which is everything you love about denim jeans but made with a Chino-style fabric. They also have buttery soft t-shirts and hoodies for when you're in stealth Jedi mode. It's finally time to stop buying. uncomfortable genes by going to the perfect gene.n.yc. Our listeners get 15% off your first order, plus free shipping, free returns, and free exchanges when you use the code imaginary 15 at

checkout. That's 15% off for new customers at the perfect gene.n.yc with the promo code imaginary 15. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. As I mentioned earlier, another thing that I learned from the graphic novel was that in the original script, Obi-1 Kenobi was not supposed to die. During production, George Lucas was complaining to his wife at the time, Marcia, that Obi-1 had nothing to do in the third act. And Marcia said, well, the character should have died at the end of the second act.

Lucas was shocked at first, but he realized she was right. Then he told Alec Guinness, on set, that his character was going to die. Alec Guinness was spooked, possibly because of his age. And he was never comfortable with this idea until he saw the final film. I asked Laurent whether he had known that before he started researching. No, actually, this part of the story came up during research. And it was funny to see this side of this huge actor, very famous in England. So you would not expect that from such a, from an actor with such a career.

But, well, he's only human. Sure. Was there anything you learned about that you regret cutting, that you wanted to write and draw? And then you realize we, just for the flow of the book, this needs to, we need to lose this section. We had to cut a few things. Of course, it would have been so great to dwell on the Coppola, Lucas' friendship and things that happen between them. Coppola is larger than life, so it's really exciting to write about him. But there are also a few anecdotes that were left on the cutting room floor.

like I love this anecdote about a prank that Harrison Ford played on Carrie Fisher when they were together during their affair. He pretended to hang himself in the closet naked with a tie. And so she opened the door to the closet and found him in the naked in the closet. So she was really afraid and he had a big laugh. So that would have been nice to see. Oh, my God. Enjoying. Wow.

It's funny to imagine that because it doesn't quite look as the guy doing this kind of prank. The prankster, yes. Yeah, the prankster. What do you know? You can be surprised by people sometimes. Well, you mentioned Coppola and Spielberg. One of the fascinating parts of the book is that Star Wars happens, you know, famously, this major turning point in Hollywood history. The old studio system is collapsed,

and they've sort of handed the keys to the kingdom to this generation of film school grads. I recently learned that Billy Wilder called them the kids with beards. So you've got Coppola, you've got Spielberg, and of course, around there, you've also got Scorsese and De Palma and all these guys, these kids with beards. How did you want to capture that? I know you're talking about there's things that you had to cut out. What was important to you in terms of, and even again, the body language, the way that Coppola, you draw him larger than life. Spilberg

is this, is immediately friendly and loves Lucas right off the bat in a way that you expect him to. And Lucas is, again, he's just so guard. He's like, oh, well, okay, okay, I think I've made a friend. You know, and so how did you want to capture those dynamics? Yes, I think Renaud really captured

the body language of these different characters. Even Martin's course was just appearing here and there, but you can you can really feel his personality through to the body. I guess it's also because, in a way, they are archetypal character, you know. As you said, okay, as you have the protagonist as a very introvert nature, and you have this, yeah, this ally bigger than life, Coppola, which take more space

than he actually occupies. and I guess Spielberg also is a very positive figure and I was thinking about this when you talked I guess he might be smiling in every drawing I made of him in the book you know now that I should I should verify this more closely but yeah it's it's basic but directly it gives of course, some indication on the Carvectoria and so very joyful.

No, no, no. Correct me. But no, there is one case at the end where he's actually depressed because it's when you realize he cannot release close encounters on the third time, yes.

Close encounter because it would be smashed by the Star Wars saga, so he was a bit depressed. But that only But he's alone, you know, and every time he's with Luca, he's smiling. But during our book tour for this book, we met a lot of readers. And for the non-Star Wars fan readers, we realized that most of them didn't know that Lucas was friends with Spielberg back when they were at school. and that he met Coppola and all the other directors of that era,

which is astounding that all these great minds and creative minds met at the same time and helped each other. This is news for most of the readers, I think, that are not movie buffs. Speaking of being a movie buff, I had heard of Alan Ladd Jr. I knew he was the head of 20th Century Fox. He was supposed to be this legendary executive. I had no idea that he's another, almost a hero in the story in the way he fought for Lucas,

when the suits wanted to just sort of, you know, just pull the plug on this thing. And I love the amount of time and attention you give to that storyline. I was wondering if you could talk about that too. Yes, this is, I personally really, really like this type of business stories because it shows the other side of the movie industry, and we rarely get to hear all the details, the backstage stories,

and also when it's about money. It's always very hush-hush when we're talking about movie deals and stuff like that. So it was interesting in this book to put that up front and to show, for example, that Alan Ladder really, was a champion for this movie and it was so hard to sell Star Wars to the suits because they had nothing to compare

the movie to the only movie at the time. The only SF movie was Space Odyssey by Kubrick. Yeah, which was considered a flop when it came out. It was really expensive and that was the only science fiction movie that they could compare Star Wars to. So they didn't want to invest anything

in that movie because they couldn't expect you to make a buck. So Lucas was very lucky to have this ally at Fox. Without Allendat Jr., Star Wars would never have been made. Well, he mentioned 2001. Another thing I had no idea was that Lucas was set up with the crew in the UK that had worked on 2001 because they thought, oh, well, these guys are experienced, but they were so full of themselves

because they had worked with Stanley Kubrick, and they questioned an almost understanding, undermined every choice that Lucas made. That was fascinating. Where did you learn about that? Well, reading about all the stories through all the people that worked on the movie, they talk about this and how even the extras were very dismissive of the American actors and the American crew, Mark Hamill and Harrison Ford, have told the story that when

they are filming the final scene in the movie where they get the medals, you know. And we have, I don't know, dozens or a few hundred extras in the crowd. And as the Mark Hamill and Harrison Ford walked past the extras, the extras were insulting them and laughing at them and calling them names. And so it was a bit humiliating for Mark Hamill because you remember that many years afterwards. So yeah, the atmosphere on the set was not that good. The English crew had no respect for Lucas

and they didn't understand his vision. And now it's easy to laugh about it because it seems so obvious that Star Wars was going to be a hit and that he was so good. But when you look at some dailies, you know, some rushes of the movie without the sound effects, without the special effects, it kind of looks like a B-movie and a cheap one at times. So you have to understand the suits and also maybe the English crew who didn't have any faith in the movie. Very few people actually believed and saw the potential in this movie.

I guess, apart George himself, maybe Stephen, I guess, and Halan. But that's it, you know, all the rest, even the actors, most of people working on it, they surely give their best in some time. But yeah, they were just saying, okay, we'll see, we'll see what happened, whatever, you know. It was quite a surprise for most of them. George Lucas has always had a full head of hair. Over 50 years, it just went from black to salt and pepper to all white. But if you look in the mirror and feel like your head is starting to look a little bit more like C3PO,

you can get treatments to stop hair loss and regrow hair in as little as three to six months. Hems offers convenient access to a range of prescription hair loss treatments with ingredients that work. They bring expert care straight to you with 100% online access that put your goals first. No hidden fees, no surprise costs, just real personalized care on your schedule. That's hymns.com slash imaginary for your free online visit. Hymns.com slash imaginary for simple online access to personalize and affordable care for hair loss, ed, weight loss, and more. Visit Hymns.com slash imaginary.

individual results may vary based on studies of topical and oral monoxidil and fanassaride prescription required let's get back to my interview with laurent and ronneau you know it's interesting reading this book for the first time made me understand how the man who directed what we now call a new hope what was called star wars also directed the phantom menace because i remember when the phantom menace came out people are saying, how could this be the same person? And as I was reading the book, I thought, of course, he's constantly having to compromise his vision because of budget or technological limitations. He has this crew that is undermining him that thinks they know more than him, this studio that's overseeing him. He has an anxiety attack that he thinks is a heart attack that

ends up in the hospital. So it makes sense that, you know, you cut to 20-something years later, and he wants to control everything with CGI, with his own company, you know, there will be no chaos in this experience and nobody will question what, you know, his vision. Did you think about that too? Yes. Yes. That's exactly what happened. Yes. Yeah. And to this, I think also all the debate and with the tweaks and the changes he made to the special edition, I understand, you know, why fans, you know, won't absolutely that hand shoot first or that we don't care to see Jabba so early in the story and stuff like that. I understand. But I also understand George, you know, that was frustrated for so long. And at some point, it's, yeah, it's like a kid going back to

his sand castle, but with more tools and more ability to make it, close to his dream so so there was a different energy going around this and i can understand yeah he's approached too it's difficult you know i think he is very attached also to the the the the the fact that it is his dream his story his vision and uh that is the only one to be to fully understand you know but it doesn't mean they cannot make me mistake, of course he can, and of course he did. But I think it's okay. You know, you can respect that the man has his views and it's already incredible what he gave to us and to the world. I like the fact that we get to see what happens when you have a visionary and an artist

and he gets to do exactly what he wants. It's not perfect. It's far from being perfect and it's being criticized since it's released, but it sees vision and that rarely happens in Hollywood or even anywhere that you can make the movie you want, your vision, it's your money and you do what you want with it. So that's what we got to see and I like that. And to just I was thinking also you met about Phantom Manas. It was not quite just a man also, you know, it's, it's so, so much time passed and his environment was very different also. So I guess it affects a lot of the way you create when, yeah, you have unlimited budget and maybe not a very big character, wife around you to say, and how should cut the

crap now and do this, you know, so. Well, that's what I was going to say was that, like, you know, on one hand, you know, I was amazed as I was reading the book thinking, this guy has such a singular vision and such a sense of all these people doubting him and saying, no, do this, no, do this. And he's like, no, I'm doing this. It's never been done. No, I'm doing this. But then there were moments where people gave him advice where he was willing, where he just said, oh, huh, because he's new with this, you know, in terms of Marcia and her suggestions, or even, or even when he was looking for a composer and Spielberg's like, oh, no, this guy, John Williams, he should use him. There's just so many moments along the way that I just kept

thinking, oh God, if he wasn't open in that moment, you know, or if there wasn't a certain limitation where he didn't get to, I mean, the original version of the script was going to be gigantic. It was going to incorporate stuff from the prequels. And, you know, so in some ways, the limitations worked, but I understood this guy specifically that you're portraying. It makes so much sense why this was such a gut-wrenching experience. Yes. And Lucas used to say that you must keep a trustworthy person with you in the end because that's the person you're going to ask for the truth when it really matters and that's the person you're going to listen to. And he had that person with Marsha who was probably one of two persons that he really listened to

and she would tell it to him straight. That's a very important combination. And maybe that's what is lacking later on. Somebody who's gutsy enough to tell him the truth and someone that he would also

listen to. So, I mean, obviously, anyone who's a Star Wars fan is going to be interested in this book. But do you feel like that learning about the history of how Star Wars has made, do you feel like it tells a bigger story

about the history of cinema or American cinema? Yes, but mostly I think it's a human story. It could be about anything. It's about Star Wars, which is great because everybody loves Star Wars. But it's really a very simple story of fortitude, of determination, of audacity. We have this young guy, he's barely 30 years old, and he's going to embark on this amazing journey to create a ground bridge

breaking movie. Nobody believes in him. But he has allies. He has stronger allies. He has friends. We can all relate to that. And that is what is, to me, the most beautiful about this story is the fact that he not only managed to succeed in making this movie, but he remained himself throughout the process. In the end, he's not a different person. He didn't sell out. He didn't make moral compromises. And that's what's so inspiring. We can all identify with that. And we need strong role models like that because he only succeeds with noble human qualities. He has morals, he has values, he's also generous. So yeah, I like the, what is really important to me in this story is this aspect, the human side. But of course it also tells the story of how a movie is made.

And for the general public, it's probably surprising to see how difficult it is to make a movie and how even the most successful movie of all time was so hard to make. So that's, that's enlightening. I guess for a lot of people that are not movie buffs. So you have another book coming out soon that's going to, is it going to cover the Empire Strikes Back? Or what is it going to cover in that time period? Yes, we have the follow-up to this book, which was conceived as a trilogy in the beginning.

So Volume 2 is going to cover the making of the Empire Strikes Back, which is the bulk of this volume. too, but also we're going to talk about making Raiders of the Lost Ark, which happened at the same time. It's really impossible to separate this story. So we're going to tell about this too, and it's a very exciting and not really well-known story. So there are lots of things to cover and very exciting revelations. I can't wait to see Frank Oz.

Yeah, indeed. After my conversation with them, I realize that one of the reasons why I enjoy their book so much is because the story of how George Lucas made Star Wars actually follows the template of the hero's journey, which Star Wars is based on. And that might be fun to read, but if you're the protagonist,

it might not be as much fun to experience it in real life, especially if you don't know how the story is going to. turn out. That is it for this week. Thank you for listening. Special thanks to Horan Oatman and Horneau Roche. Lucas Wars is out in English right now, and Leger de Luca episode two comes out in French in October.

If you want more episodes that delve into the personality of George Lucas, check out my 2024 episode, The George Lucas Talk Show. I spoke with the actor Connor Ratliff. about his live show where he plays Lucas as a talk show host with real celebrity guests. It is wild. My assistant producer is Stephanie Billman. We have another podcast called Between Imaginary Worlds. It's a more casual chat show that's only available to listeners who pledge on Patreon.

In the most recent episode, Stephanie and I celebrated the 11th anniversary of the show by talking about all the episodes of imaginary worlds that have not aged well or feel outdated. For instance, in 2017, we did an episode about fan fiction. Back then, Stephanie was really excited about the state of fan fiction. Not anymore. I remember when you and I were talking about it,

you were like, well, isn't it just like poorly written? And I was like to explain to you about betas and their purpose, basically like an editor for fan fiction. Now it's like a badge of honor if you don't have a beta reader. It's like, I don't have a beta. It's no beta we die like men is one of the popular taglines, which I still don't understand. That's become the norm as opposed to actually having somebody proofread it before you hit post. Between Imaginary Worlds comes included with the ad-free version of the show that you can get on Patreon.

You can also buy an ad-free subscription on Apple Podcasts. If you support the show on Patreon, at different levels, you get either free imaginary world stickers, a mug, or a t-shirt, and a link to a Dropbox account, which has a full-length interviews of every guest in every episode. Another way to support the show is to recommend it to a friend, post about it on social media, or leave a nice review wherever you get your podcasts. You can subscribe to the show's newsletter at imaginaryworldspodcast.org. Thank you.