Imaginary Worlds - The Sorting Hat

Episode Date: October 19, 2016

Every 11-year old goes through this, right? Your teacher places a brown wizard's cap your head, and the hat tells you what your defining characteristic is. You are brave, or loyal, or ambitious, or intellectual. Plus, your whole school is sorted into personality types. If that were real life, parents and educators would be horrified -- but it's a fantasy that Harry Potter fans have thought about for years. James Madison University professor Elisabeth Gumnior, and Vanessa Zoltan and Casper ter Kuile of the podcast Harry Potter and the Sacred Text weigh in on the enduring appeal of the Sorting Hat at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. Also featuring Kate Essig and Martin Cahill.** This is part four in a six-part series on magic and fantasy. **Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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our disbelief. I'm Eric Malinsky. So in the last episode, I talked with Marty Cahill, who writes about fantasy for Tor.com. He says when he was growing up, he was a big Harry Potter fan, and he told me this story. I was 11, and I was on my birthday, and I was wandering my school. I actually said I had to go use the bathroom, but really I left to wander the top floor of my school waiting for my owl to show up saying that I was going to Hogwarts. Which is odd because I had just been talking with a woman named Kate Essig, the same age as Marty and had the same story, except she thought her owl was just going to find her. I always felt a connection to Hermione Granger,

as like every bookish brown-haired girl ever does. And she had muggle parents, and my parents were total squares, so I knew that they were definitely muggle parents. And you get your hopes up, and then you realize you were wrong, and the only person you can be mad at is yourself. And the thing that most kids look forward to at Hogwarts is the sorting hat. It's a magical hat that is placed on the heads of boys and girls and tells them which of the four houses they'll be assigned to. The houses are based on personality.

Gryffindor is for the brave. Slytherin for the cunning. Ravenclaw for the intellects. And Hufflepuff for the brave, Slytherin for the cunning, Ravenclaw for the intellects, and Hufflepuff for the loyal people. I never quite understood what Hufflepuff was about. There's actually a test you can take on the website Pottermore, and it tells you which house the hat would assign you. I didn't want to be a Gryffindor because everyone wants to be a Gryffindor, and that seems too easy. But I loved school, and I knew that I was a Ravenclaw until my junior year of college when I took the Pottermore test.

And I remember this vividly. I was at work and we had a free moment and we're taking the Pottermore quizzes and I knew that I was going to be Ravenclaw. And even as I answered questions, I thought that I was stacking the deck to be a Ravenclaw. So forced myself to be honest. And then when it came up and said that I was a Hufflepuff, I dramatically shut my laptop and looked up legitimately shell-shocked. I thought Hufflepuff was very nice. That that's the most you could say for Hufflepuff.

But then she changed her mind. Probably my things that were the most favorite about myself had to do with being a Hufflepuff. I love the people in my life. I love caring about people. I am intensely loyal. And Hufflepuffs aren't just nice. They care about people even when it's hard. So now I wear it proudly.

Wow. Yes. Then I hate to tell you that I'm a Ravenclaw. Of course you are. Whatever. I'm happy in my house now. That's what that whole story is about, finding peace with my house. Last year, I did a series on Star Wars and how it shaped my generation, Generation X. And I've been so curious to learn that the millennials had the same relationship with Harry Potter. And one of the things that I think is so interesting about the Sorting Hat is that it didn't stand out for me when I read the books. I was an adult, and from my perspective, the Sorting Hat was just one more magical thing that J.K. Rowling had invented.

of the sorting hat was just one more magical thing that J.K. Rowling had invented. And why is this fantasy so appealing to be told at the age of 11 that your defining characteristic is to be ambitious or loyal? Wouldn't you want to rebel against that kind of label, even if it comes from a magical talking hat? Well, the answers I found surprised me. And they're after the break. Hmm. Difficult. Very difficult. Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind, either. There's talent, oh yes, and a thirst to prove yourself. But where to put you? Not Slytherin. Not Slytherin. Not Slytherin, eh? Are you sure? You could be great, you know. It's all here in your head.

And Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness. There's no doubt about that. No? Well, if you're sure, better be Gryffindor! Now to delve into the subject, I really wanted to talk with Vanessa Zoltan and Casper Turquille. They're friends who met at Harvard Divinity School, and they host a very thoughtful podcast

called Harry Potter and the Sacred Text. The motivation behind all of it is to respond in a ministerial way, and we talk about the opening monologues that we do in the podcast as sermons, and we end with a blessing, obviously. So we're trying to really use our Divinity School training and bring it to this project.

And I would say, Eric, you know, sometimes there's a kind of derisive attitude from religious establishment about something like this project in the sense that, oh, you know, it's a children's story. How can you compare it to a sacred text which has so much tradition? You know, everything starts somewhere. And we have no intention of claiming this as, you know, a new religion or anything like that. But we do want to say that the texts that in our culture have become known as sacred texts are sacred because people have chosen to treat them as sacred over many, many years and in places where they've gathered. It's funny, you know, Casper, you went to an English, was your school the sort of what I would imagine is the typical English boarding school? I went to two schools. One school was very much a kind of a typical boarding school. We had four houses, but I was a day student there. And then the other school, I was a boarding student, but was maybe a little more modern.

But nonetheless, I still had a house, you know, that I was in with a housemaster and all that kind of thing. So did you have to wear a hat? I didn't have to wear a hat, but I did have a school uniform. And we did have chapel every morning with a headmaster in his billowing cloak. It's so funny because for so many Americans who read and many people around the world, this is such the sort of the ultimate English boarding school fantasy. But as somebody who actually had experience with a real thing, obviously the magic part isn't real. somebody who actually had experience with a real thing. Obviously, the magic part isn't real. But are there any other things that you that see that would strike you as particularly strange or funny or interesting having had a certainly more closer experience than the rest of us have had?

I think the thing that really stands out most from my own experience in a boarding school was is the house system and the four different houses and how much that identity means to you when it's such an invented idea. And certainly, you know, in the non-wisding world, in my own experience, it was just a random sorting into one house. But there was such a sense of house pride and the points that you received and the cups that you won or didn't win. You know, in the seven years I was in Wellington House and the other houses were Drake and Nelson and Marlborough, all these kind of great British explorers and colonialists. But nonetheless, there was a real sense of like, oh, Wellington hasn't won the cup in four years.

You know, that's a great shame. We must reclaim it. Just hearing that makes me want to go, go Wellington. But there is a downside to sorting kids into houses. It creates rivalries. And you can see even in Harry Potter, they stereotype the kids that don't belong to their house. I mean, the really troubling moment to me in the series is when at the end of book seven, Slytherin house as a whole gets banished from the war as if there's no opportunity for a single Slytherin to be good and fight on the side of good.

I mean, I don't think Rowling is saying that McGonagall is making the right decision in that moment. You know, to me, it speaks of Japanese internment and, you know, all these times that we say you will not fight loyally with us because you are other. I understand why in that moment you don't want to try to discern who's good and who's bad. But to banish an entire house for – it's really disturbing. This is a personal issue for Vanessa because when she took the quiz online, she was sorted into Slytherin. I've always self-identified as a Hufflepuff and I sorted three times in a Slytherin.

I think that that test is BS. So this is where I maybe come clean. I was sorted into Gryffindor, but it is wrong. I am definitely a Slytherin. Yes, and I am definitely a Hufflepuff. I think that matters way more than what a website tells us. Thank you. And that test, hi, JK Rowling, that test is stupid.

What owl would you want to take? I don't even know what some of those words are. It's like a barn owl. Like, what is a barn owl? How does that decide that I'm a Slytherin? I feel very judged. I don't want to be banished from the war. Wait a second.

Why do you feel that deep down you're a Slytherin and a Hufflepuff for each of you? I know that I'm capable of, you know, thinking politically about situations or about calculating and cunning, which I think great gifts if used well. I certainly benefit from him having those gifts. You know, for me, it's also a wonderful way of admitting the temptations that I feel. And I think Slytherins are always really interested in power. And that's something I'm definitely, you know, I often try and take charge if I'm in a group situation, which can be very helpful, but can sometimes also get in the way. And so kind of acknowledging that by claiming that Slytherin identity is really helpful because it takes the sting out of that reality. It gives it a playful edge and it means I can kind of think critically about that impulse.

I think that partially what I am claiming by saying Hufflepuff is aspirational. I would love to be known for kindness. I'm not sure that I am. Certainly if you ask my students, I don't think that I am. But Slytherin, I often just feel like the naive one in a room who doesn't understand the politics of a situation. I love animals. I feel very Hufflepuff-y.

Vanessa thinks one of the reasons why the sorting hat appeals to millennials is because identity has been a major theme in their lives. This generation has been in the vanguard of redefining race and gender. And I think for millennials, as identities get fuzzier, you know, we're no longer introducing ourselves based on our religions or where we're from has become a much more complicated idea because we're also much more mobile because we can just FaceTime with our families. So I think any identifier that feels authentic is really

exciting. But then I also think that there's a huge resistance to the sorting hat because, you know, now you hear people self-identify as slither puffs. Although slither puffs sounds like a cereal with dried fish in it or something. Now, on their podcast, Casper and Vanessa play voicemails from listeners who share their own stories and theories about Harry Potter. Hi, Vanessa and Casper. This is Bridget. And they ended up changing their whole thinking about the sorting hat when they heard this. Sometimes with the way the houses are structured, there's a danger of kids not really becoming very well-rounded,

which always seems like an issue to me. Gryffindors spend so much time with other Gryffindors. There are even rules to make sure they are spending the majority of their time with other Gryffindors. Like, they don't even know how to get into other houses, common rooms. And this is why the sorting hat process is so important, I think. The sorting hat can see all the potential in kids during sorting, and I think intentionally mixes things up. So that all Gryffindors are brave, but it doesn't necessarily mean that that's like their primary personality trait. Hermione was just shoo-in for Ravenclaw, obviously, but in the end, that hat chose Gryffindor. Maybe not because at the end of the day, Hermione is more brave than she is intelligent. Maybe it's so Hermione can bring

Ravenclaw qualities to the table at Gryffindor. And Ron can bring Hufflepuff, I think. And Harry can bring Slytherin. And that's important. If all three of them were just Gryffindors through and through, they wouldn't be so great as friends or at staying alive through all their adventures over the years. I think in treating the Texas sacred, Bridget, you know, brought up an amazing observation, which is maybe the sorting hat has this pedagogical agenda, which is not necessarily to push kids in things that they already easily are, but to push them in things that they could stand to grow in and things that they maybe have the aptitude to grow in, but they just haven't yet. I think we see that with Luna.

Luna is very much a Hufflepuff, but, you know, grounding her because she has all these fun, maybe crazy theories from her dad, grounding her in study and Ravenclaw is good for her. So I like the idea a lot that the sorting hat is out of school. Right. So it is it's not sorting for career choices. I think it would be a different sorting hat if it was, but it's trying to teach the kids something. In other words, when we talk about the sorting hat, we're talking about the role of education itself. Did you ever take those tests to see what? Oh, yes. I'm a Ravenclaw. Proud Ravenclaw. As am I. I sort of thought you would be. Yes. When you have dorks meeting, they're always Ravenclaws. Elizabeth Gumneyore is a professor at James Madison University in Virginia. And she's one of many academics who write about and teach Harry Potter in college. Now, she grew up in Germany, so she has an outside perspective

on American culture. And in the 30 years that she's been teaching, she's noticed a difference in her students as they've transitioned from Generation X to Millennials. She says the overall system of the sorting hat has encouraged the kids to be less self-absorbed in their thinking, more team-oriented. Because when Harry does something heroic, his house gets rewarded. You know, a professor will announce 10 points to Gryffindor, and all the kids will cheer. For a lot of Americans, that is literally a foreign concept. This idea that what you do individually will have an impact on a larger group, that's something that in previous generations,

that wasn't a very prevalent or even in some ways credible perspective. That was always seen as communistic in so many different ways. She sees this change in the way her students react to certain assignments and philosophical papers that Generation X wasn't that interested in. That is an understanding, a worldview that is much, much older than Harry Potter and much, much more global than Harry Potter. What she shows us is, in a way, a way forward out of this glorification of individualism. And I see that the millennial generation takes that on much more

willingly and deliberately than the previous generation has. Of course, there are a lot of factors that influence a generation. These kids were famously raised in an educational environment that was trying to be less competitive, and the joke was they all got a prize for showing up. But as I was reading the Harry Potter books, as an adult, there was one question that always bothered me. I asked Casper and Vanessa this.

What exactly is Hogwarts for? Because they're not allowed to use magic in the muggle world, the world of non-magical people. So what do you do after you graduate besides teach at Hogwarts or work as a bureaucrat in the Ministry of Magic? Or be a shopkeeper. Those are the three options. You know, I like to think that a number of people go into the Muggle world. I agree. And so there are actually accountants and architects and all sorts of people in our own world

who maybe have a Hogwarts degree, but we just don't know about it. But what do they do with the magic? I mean, if they're an accountant and you have this incredible training as a wizard, I mean, when do you get to use it? Eric, accounting takes a lot of magic. I think, you know, you cook dinner with it. I would also like to think that those really accomplished people who I am jealous of, they do it because they don't have to spend time cleaning because they just clean their apartments magically. And that is why they can read every book and are just beating me

at life. Do you use your undergraduate degree? Good question. Literally, no. But in terms of the way I understand the world and solve problems in my life, every day. It doesn't matter what job you have. Ultimately, the knowledge that you gain, the skills that you learn, nobody can take that away from you. And it's more universally applicable than to a specific job. to a specific job. That may also be a very European perspective because in Europe, PhDs don't automatically go into the academic profession. Here in this country, it's almost like a requirement that if you get a PhD, you become an academic. My father was a PhD and he was a journalist. I have a friend who is a PhD who works for an insurance company.

In Germany, there are lots of PhDs in politics. Yeah, it's funny. I'm suddenly turning into my grandfather saying, what are you going to do with that degree from Hogwarts? Yes, and shouldn't that be enough to help you? Their education is supposed to help them make their world better. That's it for this week. Thanks for listening. Special thanks to Kate Essig, Marty Cahill, Vanessa Sultan, Casper Turquille, and Elizabeth Gumnior. You can like the show on Facebook or Thank you. Panoply.