Imaginary Worlds - The Undertaker

Episode Date: July 11, 2019

He's one of the most popular pro-wrestlers of all time, but Mark Calaway’s undead character The Undertaker is also an anachronism from a different era of wrestling. Today WWE performers rely more on their real life personalities than invented personas, and yet The Undertaker has continued his supernatural reign in the ring for nearly three decades. Journalist Chad Dundas and professors Charles Westmoreland and Christopher Stacey put The Undertaker’s remarkable career in context, and explore why his appeal can never truly die. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Secret. Secret deodorant gives you 72 hours of clinically proven odor protection, free of aluminum, parabens, dyes, talc, and baking soda. It's made with pH-balancing minerals and crafted with skin-conditioning oils. So whether you're going for a run or just running late, do what life throws your way and smell like you didn't. Find Secret at your nearest Walmart or Shoppers Drug Mart today. A special message from your family jewels brought to you by Old Spice Total Body.

Hey, it stinks down here. Why do armpits get all of the attention? We're down here all day with no odor protection. Wait, what's that? Mmm, vanilla and shea. That's Old Spice Total Body Deodorant. 24-7 freshness from pits to privates with daily use. It's so gentle. We've never smelled so good. Shop Old Spice Total Body Deodorant now. You're listening to Imaginary Worlds, a show about how we create them and why we suspend

our disbelief. I'm Eric Malinsky. Over the years, a lot of listeners have asked me to do an episode about professional wrestling, and I was always skeptical. I never watched wrestling as a kid, and then when I started thinking about wrestling, I couldn't figure out what the fantasy element would be besides the fact that wrestling is all staged. Spoiler alert. And then one day I decided to look up whether there had been any supernatural

wrestling characters. And that's when I discovered The Undertaker. The Undertaker is supposed to be undead. He dresses like a western gunslinger with a wide brimmed hat and a long coat. His hair is usually long, black, and stringy, although for a while he had a mohawk. And he always has dark makeup around his eyes, making him look pissed off and deeply haunted. Sometimes his character will appear out of nowhere like a ghost. He's flown down to the ring on giant bat wings. He's flown down to the ring on giant bat wings.

Other times he shot lightning out of his hands. He could even rise up from inside the ring and drag his opponents down into hell or throw them into coffins. And he has been hugely popular for almost 30 years so i emailed my assistant producer stephanie and i asked if she knew about the undertaker and the reaction i got from her was as if somebody said to me hey i just discovered comic books have you ever heard of batman so uh i did not know that you were a big wrestling fan was the undertaker always been your favorite I just discovered comic books. Have you ever heard of Batman? So I did not know that you were a big wrestling fan. Was The Undertaker always been your favorite character? Oh, absolutely.

Right from the start. Like, I remember when he was introduced. I remember the first episode of WWE when he was introduced. It was this character on like anything you've ever seen. And it was something that no one was expecting either. And his face, he's got this face that's very expressive. That conveys more than any mic work he could possibly ever do. And I was really drawn to that. I mean, you have this person or this character, this thing that's supposed to be like a cross between the dead, the undead, you're not really sure. But he still is such a great technical wrestler. He's still really great at selling the match.

You know, one of his moves is the tombstone. And it's basically a pile driver. Wait, what's a pile driver? It's a move where you you pick up your opponent, you you you have them upside down. So you completely flip them upside down and they and they're in front of you. It looks like you're driving their head into the mat. And so then what he'll do is he'll do the tombstone, and then they fall over. And then he takes their hands, and he crosses them over their chest, kind of like when you're in a coffin. And then he puts his hands over their hands and stares the audience down

it's really intimidating it's really awesome that's usually his finishing move too and it's like when they know like the the the the announcers will get really excited he's going for the tombstone he's going for the tombstone and that's how you know he's about to finish it now the story of the undertaker is really interesting. And as I kept digging deeper, I kept thinking about two questions. Why was this character such a big hit? And why did he stick around for so long? Because wrestling has changed so much in the last 30 years. I mean, at this point, his character is like an anachronism from a totally different era of wrestling. I mean, at this point, his character is like an anachronism from a totally different era of wrestling. I mean, there are wrestlers today that were born when The Undertaker was already going strong.

And a lot of the wrestlers that he started out with in the early 1990s have retired. So I wanted to figure out what is the secret of his appeal. But before we get to The Undertaker, I need to introduce a vocabulary word that you'll hear a lot of people use in this episode. And if you're not a wrestling fan, you may not know this word. Kayfabe. K-A-Y-F-A-B-E. Kayfabe is basically an old carnival term for the appearance of reality that you're trying to get the audience to accept. Chad Dundas is a sports journalist, and he says people who are not wrestling fans often misunderstand the nature of kayfabe, especially. The notion that like professional wrestling fans are rubes somehow, that they're marks,

that they've been taken in by this carnival performance. And I don't know that that was ever true. You know, if you rewind the tape to the late 1800s or early 1900s, clearly there was a time that wrestling was rigged and still presenting itself as a legitimate athletic competition. But it didn't take very long, I don't think, for people to figure out that it was not real. Like, even if you look at the wrestling results of, you know, the late 19 teens, you see people in there who are working gimmicks like the masked Marvel. Audiences even at that time were sophisticated enough

to see these characters and see, frankly, the athletic performance that they were doing and recognize, like, oh, this doesn't actually look like a real fight. We've seen a fight before. I've seen boxing. I've seen wrestling, like legitimate amateur wrestling, and this doesn't look like that.

Like, these people are doing something different. But still, wrestlers and promoters went to huge lengths to keep up the appearance of kayfabe, especially for the very young wrestling fans. Charles Westmoreland is a professor at Delta State University in Mississippi, and he studies the history of wrestling. When the promotions were traveling from town to town, the good guys or the babyfaces, they traveled with the good guys.

The heels stayed with the heels. We don't want to see two guys that supposedly hate each other showing up at a bar or a restaurant after the match is laughing and having a good time and sharing drinks. In fact, very often the babyfaces and the heels wouldn't practice their matches together because they were afraid that somebody might accidentally see them.

Wrestlers over the years did a lot to maintain their commitment to kayfabe. Dusty Rhodes, for example, was famous for even when he was around his children, if he was supposedly injured, that when he was around his kids, he would wear a cast. By the way, Dusty Rhodes was a wrestler who debuted in the 60s and continued wrestling for decades. You didn't want your kid to go to school and be like, oh, my dad's not really hurt. Like he's he's home all weekend and he's fine. You wanted your kid to go to school and be like this terrible person really messed my dad up and I'm mad at him. And then all the other kids would get mad at him and all their parents take him to the wrestling show that weekend. Christopher Stacy is a professor at LSU in Alexandria, Louisiana.

And he says the real art of kayfabe happens inside the ring. Everybody knows wrestling is, I'm not going to say the word fake, don't use the F word, choreographed, right? In order to be a successful worker in this business, you had to know how to do the wrestling moves, how to execute the wrestling moves, working with your partner. But most important, here's most important. You don't want to hurt your partner and you don't want to hurt yourself, but you have to make it appear that you're in a shoot or a real fight. That's not easy to do. Again, Chad Dundas. They can teach you how to fall down in a way that hurts the least, but you're still falling down.

You get hit in the head with a folding chair, you still get hit in the head with a folding chair. You know, the physical damage of wrestling is real. The long-term side effects of that are very real. And all of this brings me back to The Undertaker because he walks the line of kayfabe in a way that no wrestler has ever done before and may never again. So Mark Calloway, who plays The Undertaker, is a huge guy, even for a wrestler. He's 6'10", he's fluctuated from 280 to 300 pounds, and wrestlers of that size are usually like this towering colossus, but he's actually

very agile and fast, and he was tagged right away as a rising star. He started out wrestling in regional territories near Texas, where he's from, because wrestling used to be very decentralized. But the World Wrestling Federation, or the WWF, was slowly gobbling up every regional wrestling circuit. And the WWF was taking advantage of cable TV, which was a new phenomenon that can make wrestling go national. And eventually they changed their name to the WWE, World Wrestling Entertainment. And you'll hear people in this episode use WWF and WWE interchangeably, but they're the same thing. So back in the 1980s, sort of regional amateur wrestling was gritty, but the WWF was cartoonish. Almost every wrestler had a gimmick, and a gimmick

is not a pejorative term, it's just what you call your persona. And the goal for the WWF was to create fictional characters out of real people that they could sell as action figures. In 1990, Mark Calloway is hired by Vince McMahon, who ran the WWF. And the McMahon family actually still runs the WWE today. And apparently, Vince McMahon just assigned Mark Calloway this character of The Undertaker, who was loosely based on Clint Eastwood's character from the movie High Plains Drifter. Apparently, Vince McMahon just assigned Mark Calloway this character of The Undertaker, who was loosely based on Clint Eastwood's character from the movie High Plains Drifter. And it was like Mark Calloway was an actor who was assigned a part that he didn't know he was auditioning for. And when it came to creating characters, the WWF would just throw a lot of spaghetti against the wall, so to speak. And if a gimmick didn't work, they would reintroduce the same wrestler

as a different character and pretend the other character didn't exist. From Death Valley, I give you The Undertaker. The Undertaker, the mystery partner, is now revealed. I never heard of him. Oh, take that. Holy cow. In fact, when Christopher Stacy

first saw The Undertaker's debut in 1990, he did not think this character was going to last. I remember watching him on TV and looking at his gimmick and thinking, this is pretty stupid. This is a dumb gimmick. It's foolish. It's cartoonish. Is he a zombie? Is he a monster? Is he Frankenstein? Or is he an undertaker? Is he supposed to be alive? Is he dead? Although Chad Dundas was intrigued, because throughout the 1980s, the WWF had been dominated by Hulk Hogan and guys just like him. Hulk Hogan, ready to a real American, and he's pretending to play the championship belt like a guitar, and he's over the top and very boisterous.

The Undertaker is the exact opposite of that. He has this very cold feeling, very subdued entrance where his theme music is spooky organ music. And he comes out wearing a long floor-length duster and that wide-brimmed hat. And it takes him seemingly 15 minutes to get down to the ring because he walks as slow as he possibly can.

Seriously, The Undertaker's entrance is such a slow burn that the other wrestlers don't know what to do except to stand there in the ring waiting for him to finally get there. It all leads to this crescendo of him coming up the steps to the ring and raising his arms in time with the lights in the arena coming on. So it goes from dark to bright. He gets in the ring. He whips off the duster. He takes off the hat.

And you finally get your first look at this enormous human. The Undertaker! It's really just a masterpiece. I can't say enough about how the high-concept character of The Undertaker could have been terrible and could have gone off the rails immediately and could have been tossed in the junk heap of awful wrestling gimmicks. Now here is another reason

why The Undertaker should not have worked. He is supposed to be impervious to pain because he's undead. So wrestlers would give him everything they've got and he would just appear completely unfazed. It's easy to imagine that they brought in this essentially young kid who had been involved in wrestling before that, but had never been a big star. And they give him this gimmick that is impervious to pain. You know, one of the big parts of it is that he doesn't sell anybody else's moves. And like, according to the old school code of wrestling, that would be a big time no-no.

You know, if you were out there in the ring with a grizzled veteran who had put in his time and paid his dues and you weren't making him look good in front of the crowd, he would probably pop you one for real. And when The Undertaker would seem to get knocked out, one of his signature moves was to rise up slowly like a vampire rising from his coffin. A year after he debuted, he won the championship and defeated Hulk Hogan, which was a huge shock for the fans. Hulk Hogan is dead! And his dad won't win The Undertaker! And it's not like when Michael Jordan joined the NBA, and he put all these veterans to shame because he's about to become the greatest player of all time.

The head office of the WWF was dictating the storyline that the Undertaker would win all these matches and rise right to the top. And, you know, wrestlers are encouraged to have huge egos. I mean, there should have been so much resentment against him. But everybody agreed to the storyline. Christopher Stacy has a theory why. In real life, Mark Calloway was the opposite of The Undertaker. He was more of a peacemaker who could settle disputes among wrestlers behind the

scenes. Taker has an impeccable reputation with his colleagues, which really is kind of rare in the wrestling business. If you listen to your share of shooter interviews or, you know, it's this guy buries that guy and this guy wouldn't go over. I mean, if there was any resentment, I don't think anybody would have made that known. So he didn't face much resistance behind the scenes. But here is the third reason why The Undertaker should not have worked. He didn't talk, at least at first. And until that point, the main way that wrestlers would promote themselves was boasting or showboating. As Dusty Rhodes say, they can talk the people into the building.

The Undertaker could not talk. So what do you do with a wrestler who has a good gimmick, who has the size, and who can work? You pair him with somebody who can talk. So they gave him a sidekick, a fake manager who was played by William Alvin Mooney, who was a real wrestling manager. And the character he played was called Paul Bearer. Like a pallbearer, but with the first name Paul. And Paul Bearer looked like a long-lost member of the Addams family. Again, Chad Dundas.

The Undertaker has been his ward. He was the guardian of the Undertaker, who had been orphaned early in his life by this terrible fire that killed his parents. And Paul Bearer is, as they like to do, frankly, with a wrestling manager, the exact physical opposite of the actual Undertaker. He's a short guy, pretty rotund. Depending on what era of the Undertaker you're talking about here,

he would either have his face painted ghostly white or would just have this kind of ever-present sweaty sheen of suntan. would just have this kind of ever-present sweaty sheen of suntan. And in their promos, Paul Bearer sounds like he is literally high on fear and euphoria, thinking about all the damage that his protege is going to inflict. It won't be long, Bret Hart. It won't be long until you walk down the historic aisle of Madison Square Garden and step into the ring with my undertaker. And the Undertaker was always standing behind Paul Bearer. And eventually, the Undertaker would talk,

but in kind of a zombie Clint Eastwood voice that wouldn't really work in the ring. It's best for TV promos. You came to us asking of the secrets of the dark side. And one of the more supernatural elements of that whole storyline and one of the things they did with The Undertaker and his relationship with Paul Bearer, and frankly a very WWE thing to do,

is that they had Paul Bearer equipped with this large golden urn that he would carry around. He would hold it in front of himself like a sacred chalice, and he would bring it down to the ring. And the implication was that the urn had some kind of magical sway over the Undertaker, and that the Undertaker was, for lack of a better word, controlled by the urn or would

follow the urn. And Paul Bearer at times used that to kind of control what otherwise might be an uncontrollable force in the ring. And some of that stuff got a little bit over the top. And I remember during the mid-90s, the urn became just like outlandishly huge, you know, flower pot sized golden urn that at one point, I think like the top came off and it cast this bright light around the arena. So was that did you Stephanie, did you love that storyline? Yeah. So at one point, the implication was the urn carried the ashes of the Undertaker's dead brother who allegedly died in the fire. His name was Kane. Is the fire the funeral home that killed the Undertaker's parents?

Exactly. So in the fire, both the parents and Kane, his brother, were supposed to have been dead. the the parents and Kane his brother were supposed to have been been dead and part of the storyline was it turned out that he wasn't dead and he actually started the fire and he didn't he made it out but he was deformed so he had this he wore this mask for a part of the time and so wait so Kane was appears as another wrestler yeah so there's a storyline where it comes out where all of a sudden Kane shows up. And the first time that The Undertaker sees Kane, the look of sheer shock on The Undertaker's face is priceless. Well, he looks like he's seen a ghost because that's exactly what he's seen. And so at first he's relieved and he's happy to see his brother, but his brother's really angry at him. And there's all this animosity and hatred.

And the first match that they actually fight against each other, you can see that The Undertaker's struggling because this is his brother who he thought he lost, but now he's got to fight him. And that's actually a little heartbreaking. And then at one point, Paul Bearer switches sides and he starts managing Kane. Yeah, and I know that The Undertaker,

it's funny because I paid no attention to wrestling. And. And I know that the Undertaker, it's funny because like I, I mean, I paid no attention to wrestling. And so when I find out about this stuff, like I, everyone talks about the Hell in a Cell cage match. It was against Mankind. Yeah. Mick Foley. Mick Foley.

Right. Who, who to me looks like an office temp who went crazy. Or went through the zombie apocalypse. Yeah. Yeah. Like he's got like this disheveled, like, like, like a, like he's got like a white button down shirt and a tie. But he then looks like he went crazy and ate half the staff and had to put a hand of Electra mask on him.

Exactly. Yeah. And that's kind of the persona. Like he's so crazy that he has this mask on him or he's going to bite someone or he's going to attack someone. Like I hear about that. So this happened like 1998. And I like these are such like historic events in the history of the WWF that as I learn about these things, I'm like, what was I doing in 1998? Why was I so unaware that like one of the most important matches of all time and happened? I mean, was it when you were watching this? I mean, did it feel like almost like the MCU? Like like was this the equivalent of like Infinity War and game coming out when these huge epic matches were happening? Infinity War, Endgame coming out when these huge epic matches were happening?

Yeah. So that particular Hell in a Cell, the thing you have to know about Mick Foley is he doesn't care about if he really gets physically hurt. He puts everything into his performance. So does The Undertaker slash Mark Calloway. And the two of them are great together wrestling. You can tell that there's this really good camaraderie between them. They work really well together. You can tell that there's this really good camaraderie between them.

They work really well together. And that match, there's like no holds barred. At one point, they're at the top of, it is a cell. It's like a big cage cell, a steel cell that's over the ring. And Mick Foley, or Mankind, climbs to the top of said cage. And Mark Callaghan, the Undertaker, comes up with him. And you remember, Mark, the Undertaker, is 6'10". So he's at the top of this cage with Mankind. And he just literally throws Mankind down.

He falls, like, through a table. But the great thing about it is the reaction that Mankind gives. He actually smiles. So there's blood all over him. I think there's like, it looks like a tooth was missing and he's smiling. So that makes him look even more batshit crazy. But that entire match from start to finish was so physical and so well done. And it's probably still one of my favorite matches.

So they figured out a formula to make The Undertaker work. But he shouldn't have lasted. Because throughout the 1990s, the WWF was facing massive competition from this wrestling network that Ted Turner was bankrolling called the WCW, the World Championship Wrestling. They went head to head on Monday nights. There was a lot of concern about which wrestlers were going to jump ship in either direction. And the WCW was much grittier and less cartoonish. So to compete, the WWF also became less cartoonish and grittier. In fact, they even rebranded it the Attitude Era. And within a few years, everybody was just playing an exaggerated version of themselves.

The wrestlers and the management. Vince McMahon was on television all the time to the point where you don't know what's real anymore. And that's the perfect evolution for kayfabe. But it was not perfect for a supernatural character like The Undertaker. So they recast him as the American badass who wore sunglasses and a bandana and rode into the ring on a motorcycle. This was supposed to be the quote real Mark Calloway and his contract negotiations with the WWF became part of his storyline. You get the pleasure of paying me lots of money to kick your stank ass. So Stephanie, as a fan of The Undertaker,

was that weird to see him turn into the American badass biker character? Yeah, it was quite a change. The thing is, Mark Calloway actually is a biker. He loves motorcycles. So it kind of lent itself to the authenticity of the character. I still liked him, but not nearly as much as the Undertaker. It was it was it seemed a little more forced to me. That's ironic that it seemed more forced than him playing the Undertaker. Him being a little more like himself seemed a little bit more forced. And it's not that he was not good on the mic because he was.

So there was elements of his real life in there but for me it still rang a little false I still liked him and I still followed him so the character of the dead man as I call the undertaker seemed to be dead at the moment but he rises again

and he takes over wrestling again that's just in a moment so the fans were divided on the American biker character. Some people thought it was a cool change of pace. They liked the idea that this was kind of the quote, real Mark Calloway. But there was also a building demand for the Undertaker to come back. And a few years later, they did bring him back. And when the fans finally heard that gong, and the lights went out again and The Undertaker appeared...

It's electric. It gets the same reaction today that it did in 1998, which is remarkable. Charles Westmoreland thinks that The Undertaker is tapping into a very powerful sense of nostalgia among the fans. There's a good deal of dissatisfaction with the WWE right now on many different levels. The quality of the product, there is growing awareness of how wrestlers are treated as

workers. You know, there is this nostalgia that things were, you know, better back in the good old days. And The Undertaker could bridge that gap between generations. But they also refocused his storyline on the idea that he had never lost at WrestleMania, which is the championship of wrestling. And they branded it as The Streak. And The Streak turned out to be a much subtler way of expressing his supernatural abilities.

Chad Dundas says they did not need lightning shooting out of his hands anymore, or a magic urn. The character at this point kind of stands on its own. You don't need a lot of theatrics that you had in the past. And there's a great strength, frankly, into leaving some of that stuff behind. Because if you don't do the supernatural bells and whistles that The Undertaker was known for for a long period of time, if you leave those behind, eventually you bring one of those supernatural elements back in and it just makes a larger impact. The streak lasted 21 championships until he finally lost in 2014 to Brock Lesnar, who had come from traditional wrestling and other sports.

So Brock was basically playing a version of himself. My understanding is that Brock was supposed to go over, that he was supposed to win that match. But I think that they had to call it short because Callaway got injured. I think he got a concussion. And, you know, that could have been a disaster. And in some ways, it was a little bit of an anticlimax.

The end of that match was sudden and, like, didn't seem like it went how it was scripted, didn't seem like it went how it was supposed to go. It almost just enhanced the surprise even more. Everybody now has seen those famous crowd reaction shots of people who just can't believe that the streak is broken and then The Undertaker lost at WrestleMania. And some of that was because the match didn't reach

what seemed like a natural climax. It just ended a little bit prematurely. didn't reach what seemed like a natural climax. It just ended a little bit prematurely. 75,000 here in the Superdome paying their respect. It's like realizing Santa Claus didn't really know. To the greatest performer in WrestleMania history. So like Mark Calloway is standing there,

knowing he's been injured and really should go to a hospital. But at that moment, he's like, well, my character has just lost, so I need to really sell this in a way he normally never sells it. And then afterwards, soon I should go to a hospital and get checked out. I mean, that was kind of amazing to me. Right. And that's part of the business that's real, right? Like most of these people, men and women who are out there doing these performances are legitimately super tough. There are two adages of professional wrestling that I think apply to that. One is the old cliche that the show must go on. adage of wrestling, which I believe originated with Roddy Piper or a promoter who told Roddy Piper, look, if you're going to die, kid, just die in the ring. So you can see that in a performance like Calloway, like you get a concussion, but like

he's still going to have the, uh, the stick-to-itiveness, I guess you could say, the professionalism to do the best that he can to complete his job, complete his mission, and also put on the intended show for the fans. And now there's a new meta storyline, which may be the final reason why The Undertaker cannot last. There's a real tension in a character that is supposed to be undead and virtually unbeatable, and a performer who is 54 years old. Mark Calloway has sustained multiple injuries.

He's gone through 17 surgeries. Now, there are sad stories of wrestlers who came back because they couldn't afford their own health insurance. But that is not the case with Mark Calloway. He is there because he really wants to be, because he's good at reading a room, and he can tell that the audience still wants The Undertaker. They still go crazy when they hear that gong

and the lights go out. But at the same time, they're very aware of how old he is. And Charles Westmoreland has been wondering how this is going to all end. He's going to be around in the ring periodically, I would imagine, for the next couple of years. Where they go from there with him, that's anyone's guess.

In the past, it was a transition phase where a wrestler could go into the broadcast booth. Perhaps they would go into managing, but we're not in the days of managers being major characters or gone. not in the days of managers being major characters are gone. But I don't see him giving up wrestling anytime soon, to be honest. And there are more stories to tell about The Undertaker. All elements of fantasy come down to wrestling with the human experience. And at the heart of that is conflict. And The Undertaker has been literally wrestling with his own demons,

whether it's questions around family reconciliation, vengeance, pride, or mortality. There was this great piece written back in the 50s by the French philosopher Roland Barthes, who said that wrestling is all about justice. It's all about the pursuit of justice and how we as human beings navigate this conflict between good and evil in the shades of gray when there's not always a clearly defined good and evil. And these struggles are playing out in real time

for the characters, the performers, and the audience over three decades. That is one hell of a show. So, Stephanie, I feel like I don't think I've earned the right to just call him Taker. Like, I feel like only true fans can call him Taker, so I'm going to call him The Undertaker. Did we do justice to The Undertaker? I mean, yeah, I think so. I mean, and it's funny when you talk about doing justice. You know, you're talking to someone

who's got several bobbleheads, a Christmas ornament, and more than one Funko Pop of The Undertaker. So for me to say that you've done justice to it, that's a real seal of approval. Aw, thanks. You're welcome. Well, that's it for this week. Thank you for listening. Later this summer, we're going to explore another wrestling culture, Lucha Libre. Special thanks to Christopher Stacey, Charles Westmoreland, and Chad Dundas, who actually wrote a graphic novel commissioned by the WWE that tells the fictional backstory of The Undertaker and his relationship to Paul Bearer and the feud between him and his brother Kane. I have a link to that in my episode notes.

You can like the show on Facebook. I tweeted emolinski and Imagine Worlds pod. I have a slideshow of The Undertaker at various points in his career on the Imaginary World's Instagram page. And the show's website is imaginaryworldspodcast.org. Thank you.