IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson - Ask Your Kid The Tough Questions with Angie Martinez

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

Michelle and Craig sit down with famed radio host, podcaster, newly-minted golfer, and “Voice of New York,” Angie Martinez. As the mother of two sons, Angie offers her opinions to a listener struggling with raising a son in a volatile culture filled with bad examples of masculinity. Michelle and Craig talk about adolescent social pressure, and Angie shares her best trick for connecting with sons. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The one thing that pissed me off about parenting is like when I got pregnant, nobody told me when my son was a baby, I would look at his chest and see if he was still breathing. I go in the room and I would do that for weeks. And then I said, okay, I'm, I can't sleep. When does this part stop? And the day that I realized, oh my gosh, this never stops. I was furious and nobody told me that. This is a big deal.

Like forever, I have somebody to worry about it. Forever and ever, amen, as I say, you know. I don't care how old. And then they'll have. grandkids and you'll feel the same way about them. So it just goes on. It's torturous. It's really torturous. So we got to think about this because parenting is for, you know, it ain't for everybody. It ain't for suckas. It's not for suckas. You got to be tough. You got to, you know, you got to be. And so we have to prepare, Jessica has to prepare her son for that life.

This episode is brought to you by Pinesall and Chase Home Lending. Hey, little girl. Craig Malcolm. How are you? What's going on, dude? Oh, man. Just enjoying sitting here next to you? I know. This is fun. I love my time with you.

I know. This is great. Yeah, this is the whole reason for doing this. I get to see you. What you got something going on, what's on your mind. I have so much good stuff to talk about today. So growing up, do you remember mom and dad ever talking about parenting? That's a good question.

I remember them talking. talking about their parents. Right. What went right in their parents' parenting and what went wrong. I mean, one of the beautiful things about mom and dad, and mom more so, was that she was very upfront with us about her strengths, but also her weaknesses. And she talked to us about everything and tried to put her parenting. lessons in some context for us.

You know, so that's to say that they gave us context to how they were parented, what they thought their parents got right and wrong. So that helped us understand their why with us, which helped us understand their principles of parenting. Yeah. Yeah. What I remember so distinctly is mom saying on more than one occasion, hey, look, this is my first time being a parent. And I'm not sure if I'm doing it right. And that always resonated with me.

And while that wasn't them sort of talking about parenting to each other, parenting us to each other, it was a look behind the curtain of, oh, they're just regular folks, too, trying to figure it out. And I always remember mom saying that before she made any kind of decision on punishment, she would count to 10. You remember that? Well, I didn't get punished that much. Yeah, well, neither did I. But we got punished.

We got a couple of spankings. Yeah, yeah. And as a future parent, the grace to be able to say, well, I'm not sure how this works. And I think that makes you a better parent when you come into the game knowing that you're not an expert at this. Well, and knowing that your kids don't need you to be an expert on it. You know, that was some of the wisdom that they understood was that showing your flaws to your children, that's not always a bad thing. It's okay to say that you're afraid or that you don't know or that you're not sure and to make them a part of a bigger conversation. And I think so many parents feel like they've got to show up.

perfectly for their kids, or else they won't get the respect or, you know, they won't have the authority. I don't know what it is, but mom and dad did a beautiful job of making themselves plain to us, like not just being our parents, but being, as you put, human beings. Right. And I think mom and dad modeled that for us in a really powerful way. No, I absolutely agree. But before we bring out our guest here. I have one more question that I was thinking about when I was thinking about this episode. Do you remember ever changing who you were based on what your friends were doing or wanted to do? Look, there was the, there were a whole bunch of versions of me when I was young. I think, I think there's the, there was the smart version, you know, the go to school, get good

grades, 11-5-A's version of yourself, the person who likes to read. And then there's the you who has to get to school safely, who has to play in the neighborhood, who has to, you know, show up with kids. In our neighborhood, kids were, you know, from every kind of, I shouldn't say every kind of background. We're same race, same socioeconomic status, but not everybody didn't have the same thing and they didn't have the same ability. And when you grow up in the you know, when you grow up in the neighborhood, look, if you talk a certain way, if you show off in a certain way, if you brag about yourself, if you somehow make somebody else feel intimidated or lesser than intentionally or unintentionally, you're in a fight, right?

Are you going to have a hard time, you know, meshing with the folks? So I know I went through a period where I was just cursing more, you know, and, and, and, And I miss being, you know, we went to day camp. And that wasn't me, but it just became me outside of the home. Right. Where I was just like, MF, whatever. I mean, I really just got into just like, this is how you communicate. And I must have been like 10 because this was like, I remember when it dawned on me how bad it had gotten.

Because we were at Rainbow Beach Day Camp. We went to this public day camp every summer. And it was like the third. third year, I'd always gotten camper of the year in my age group. And this last year, I didn't get it. Notice she said she always got camper of the year. Which meant that you were helpful and you were, 10 of you followed the rules. You got along with others. And, you know, we prided ourselves on that. Yes, we did. And at the awards banquet where the parents came, I didn't get camper of the year. And I had been doing all the same things. And I went up to the,

I didn't really come up and go, what, what happened, coach? But she came up to me, our camp head, and said, you know, you would have gotten it this year, but you were just cursing so much. And I was like, oh, wow, my cursing affected my award status. So that's the long way of saying that, yeah, I do think that I changed. I tried to get a little more, you know, a little less good girl and a little more just sort of. And that was outside of my character. It's completely outside. And so much so, I didn't know that you were cursing.

Because I wasn't doing it at home. Yes. I wasn't coming home with my potty mouth. Right. I was leaving that on the bus. We weren't in the same age group. Right. That's right. You know, we did, we, I never heard that.

What about you? Have you ever changed yourself? I remember, I remember this clearly. I remember going to play cards. I was in seventh, eighth grade, going to play cards over Brian Williams house. And Brian Williams is probably out there somewhere. And everybody was smoking cigarettes. Everybody was smoking cigarettes.

What grade was this? I don't remember this. It's like seventh or eighth grade. I mean, I wasn't in high school. And I remember everybody smoking. They're like, Craig, you want a cigarette? And I was like, yeah. And I took a lit cigarette and I held it and didn't puff it.

Uh-huh. And I went home and I was like, yeah, I was over at Brian's house. And dad was like, you guys, smoking cigarettes, huh? And I was like, how did he know? There's like some jujitsu parenting stuff. He knew because we were in a room full of cigarette smoke, so I must have smelled like cigarettes smoke. Yeah, that's why kids are stupid. That's why kids are dumb. They think their parents are magical. And it's like, well, you got lie written all over you. I know, I know, I know.

And I said, no, I wasn't smoking. I held a cigarette, but I wasn't smoking. And he said, okay. And the fact that he just believed what I said could have worked in either way. I could have said I can bamboozle this guy. But I was so disappointed that he was disappointed that I, you know, I turned in honest John. Yeah, that was my nickname for you, H.J. Because you would confess to stuff that no one needed to know you. did. I know. And I just, just your, your guilty soul. I'd be like, what'd you tell them for?

They wouldn't know. Yeah, H.J. I started calling you H.J. from there on. You did. Yes, you did. But that's good. That's why, you know, I mean, whatever balance is a, as a grown man out in the world, I can say this from the bottom of my heart that you were one of the most decent men, I know. And I think that that, you know, a lot of that is a testament to that delicate balance that mom and dad had to strike. as parents with a black man in the world. You know, that's a complicated business. And that's a, well, we're going to talk about men in the world today. Yeah.

Yeah, well, that means a lot. And before I get all choked up, I'm going to introduce our guest. And I can't tell you how excited I am for this conversation. She's a director, a writer, a podcast host in her own right, a Hall of Famer in the broadcast world. And I understand now that she's a pretty decent golfer. And that's what I want to talk about. And of course, she's a mother.

We have coming with us today, Angie Martinez. Angie! This is my cue. You come on me. Great to have you here. I wouldn't lose this for anything. Good to see you. They have a seat.

Join us at the Knights of the Roundtable. Because we're all in blackish-ish. This is a vibe in here. It's a vibe. It's a vibe if I got our little fireplace going. But anyway. Well, listen, I'm new at this game and you're a veteran. The podcasting game?

The interviewing game. Oh, okay. Good. So I'm interested in hearing the hardest, most difficult interview you've ever had. Oh, my goodness. That's a very hard question. It's an abundance. I've been doing this since I'm 18 years old.

And you're only 27. Exactly. So for some of those nine years. I have over 30 years. And when I started, you know, hip hop was like coming of age as the same time I was. So every artist was in New York. I was the spot in New York to do interviews. So I'm doing two a day.

And these are not like, this is Jay-Z and Mary J. Blige and Nas and Wu-Tang. This is the cream of the car. It was every day for all those years. Now I'm a little more particular. I feel like I want to talk to people that I have either something to offer them or they have something to offer me or our audience. And also just, you know, I try to balance my life a little different now. But there's just so many is the point. Some of them are hard.

Some of them are sad. Some of them are disappointing. You know, I just try to see truth in people. And sometimes it's some little artist that I was like, who, what? And then they surprised me with some beautiful. beautiful story about their childhood or some level of insight that they have that you wouldn't imagine. Yeah, that you wouldn't really know. So it's really hard to say hardest. That's why I like podcasting to me because it feels a little looser. It feels like a real

discussion. I'm having a blast. This has opened a new chapter for me. So I'm having an absolute blast. Anytime you open up a new skill set too. It's a good thing. There's like so much wonder. Well, it's like picking up golf. It's a Yeah, it's like it's a new muscle. This episode of IMO is sponsored by Chase Home Lending, helping you navigate the journey to your new home with confidence. Chase Home Lending understands that buying a home can feel overwhelming, especially when balancing career and family demands.

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And I have done that. It made me realize, though, that it is tough for folks who do. don't have the benefit of paid sick time. It's not only tough on the individual and their families, it's also tough on your coworkers. Maybe you, like so many Americans, have felt that stress too, wondering what your boss will think or if your paycheck will take a hit. That's why I'm proud to talk about what Theraflu is doing with their right to rest and recover campaign. For the past four years, they've been championing the right to paid sick time for everyone. I love that Theraflu is making this a priority. Learn more or help someone apply for the fund

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by prescription only. And, you know, speaking of, you know, new stories and new chapters, not new, but, you know, everybody talks to you about the work you do. But you've got a life, too. How is life? How is family? How are your people? My people are good.

I think I have turned the corner where life is really important to me. Yeah. Whereas work used to be so important. I always love my family. I have the same best friends from some things. third grade. I would cherish friendships and those things, but I don't know that I put so much time effort into them as I would work. My youngest is 18, getting ready to leave. My oldest is 21, who's like finding his way. And so it gives me permission to kind of like, well, what do you

want now? Isn't that permission amazing? At least, I'm sorry, as a woman, as a mother. Yes. And nobody could give it to you. You have to give it to yourself. That's right. That's right. You have to give it to yourself. They've been launched. I really feel like at 60, this is the first time that all my decisions are for me. I don't think that, you know, there's been a point in my life, where at least after being married and having kids, that my choices were always somehow wrapped up in what they needed. Yeah, or family.

You know, yeah. And this is a period of freedom. Yeah. I'm sure you're feeling that. I'm getting to that too, yeah. I'm getting to that too. And I'm just appreciative of like, I've had some friends recently with some health issues and some loss. And, you know, whenever you're like confronted with mortality, you kind of like you're forced to say, well, what do I really? What's important to me? I don't want, you know, like, I don't want to waste any time doing something that doesn't bring me joy. That's right. I mean, not to say, sometimes you have to work. You have to work to get to the thing that you want to accomplish. But I want less of that. and I want more of the joy parts. And I like to work, so that's fine. Yeah.

But you know that and you've developed that muscle. I have the muscle. The joy muscle? It's amazing when you've exercised the work muscle. Sometimes you forget that the joy piece, you've got to learn that too. I know. You've got to learn how to sit in the accomplishment and look at it and go, wow, you know, this is a good thing. But you also have to, there has to be intention in it.

Otherwise, you can let it. You could use old habits and fall into like, oh my God, yeah. The old habits. And so I've been trying to be conscious of that. So that's kind of like where my life is now. It's like, and then also the fine line of having adult children is like, how much do you, how much do you get in and how much do you get out? And how much do you stay up? I'm still in the stay up late.

Like, if my kids are home, I can't go to sleep if they're out. Do you do that? Like, can you? You know, it's interesting because both of the girls are off. They live. They're on their own. They're on their own. But if they come stay at your own.

That's what I was going to say. I don't know where they are all for, you know, 200 days of a year, but they're in my house. I'm just all of a sudden, well, where are you? Exactly. You know. I'm not a crazy person. Yeah, no, no. That's why I'm, you know, I was never one of those mothers.

You're like, I just want you to be with me. I mean, I'm happy that I love every, I've loved every phase of parenting. I loved them when they were little babies. I loved them when they were walking and starting to talk. The teenagers were. interesting in the White House. But I've loved every time at this and watching them become their own people

and make their own choices and figure stuff out and call me after they figured it out. That's nice. It's a good thing. And I think that I wouldn't let them do that if they were right under me. Now that we're talking a little bit about parenting,

this is a good time to bring in our question. Well, Natalie, let's hear the question. Hi, Michelle and Craig. I'm Jessica. and the mother of a 17-year-old boy. My son plays football, all of his friends do. And while I'm proud of his athletic achievements, go saints, I sometimes worry the environment around him

pushes toxic forms of masculinity. His friends are over all the time, and although I know and love them all, I can't help but overhear some of the stuff they talk about. Girls being either hot or ugly, which guys are the best and worse at football? It seems like a verbal competition for who, who can be the toughest and most callous in the group.

I feel like I'm seeing early stages of boys getting caught up in unhealthy ideas of what it means to be a man. The version of my son that I see with his friends is a lot different than the version I see without them. He's sweet. He likes reading. He's kind to his younger sister. I'm really not sure how to reconcile this. It's hard to find a balance between encouraging him to be strong and competitive, while also making sure he stays grounded and emotionally open. How do you think we can change the conversation around masculinity so that boys learn that being a good man is about so much more than toughness or success?

What are the values you've worked to instill in your own sons to help them navigate all of this? Thanks, Jessica. I love this question. It's a good question. All right. Well, also, it's like I have daughters. And my daughters are encountering men and boys. And, you know, I started to talk to Craig about, I try to prove.

It's like, how are we feeling about where our men and boys are these days? Because, you know, there's a part of me, you know, you're reading in studies that more young men feel isolated. They feel, are they feeling alone? Some of that is because of the pandemic. Some of it is because they feel left out. I just, I'm curious for you two who are sunraisers. Yeah. You know, what are you seeing out there in our young men?

That's interesting because I did hear that too recently that this generation is like the loneliest generation. And I think pandemic, but also I think everything's inside. You know, it's like social media and online and AI and all the things that are inside versus outside and having to force interaction and learn how to hurt somebody's feelings and feel bad. about it and apologize and learn how to apologize. You know, it's like, you can only learn how to be a good human by actually being a human with other humans, you know, and a lot of our kids are stuck in this, like, inside world. So I see that. But I think for me, it's like a push and pull of like, you know, she mentions hearing him

talk to his friends. And part of that is like, they have to find their way. They're not going to get it right all the time. And like you were talking about peer pressure and all that stuff being around. I think you wait for the moments. You wait for when they do something that they did well. And you praise that. And you let them know how important that part of their personality is as opposed to hovering.

And like, why did you say that to your friend? Like I think it's a really a push and pull because you also can lose them by pushing too hard. Yeah. Or they hide or they hide things from you because they. They already know what you're going to say about everything. So for me, I try to walk that fine line of letting them become, showing by example, and then also encouraging when I see something that I'm proud of so that they know that those. I mean, obviously, if they did something that was completely wrong or out of line, then we're going to address that.

But, you know, talking loose with their friend, I'm not going to jump in the room and be like, hey, I heard what you said. Give a lecture on the. That's not, you know, it's like, mom, get out of here and don't come back in the room. They got to go on a little pad. Unless you're seeing something that's super disturbing, you've got to kind of watch and hop in where you, it's a slow mold. It's a slow constant mold.

And I think your strategy is terrific because you just can't jump at everything they say. And nor should you be helicoptering in when you hear stuff. And my two youngest are still young enough where, and Mish and I talked about this. it gets back to the isolation. They don't communicate with their friends as much as we did when we were younger. And part of that has to do with technology. But part of it has to do with parents who are trying to curate their upbringing

instead of just letting them be outside, play, say the wrong thing, get into a fight with your boys, have to make up. And then start playing again. Because that's what boys used to be known for. Because we talked about this all the time. How boys can get into an absolute fist fight. Oh, yes. My boys have done that. And then.

They're outside playing basketball. They're outside playing basketball. Like nothing ever happened. And it is a boy thing. It used to be intentional sometimes. They used to say, let's go shoot a fair one. And then they go, go fight it out. And then not my.

boys. I'm just saying, that was a thing. Like, we're going to go fight it out. Which I don't necessarily love that as a mom either. But I think this whole phenomenon is a part of just where we are in society. Yeah. I think there is an industry in sort of toxicity. You know.

There's a marketplace for it. There is an absolute industry. There are making money off of. A hundred percent. Yeah. But until we can get these young men to sort of get away from their devices and start interacting from a communication standpoint, we're lost. I think in any relationship, child, husband, wife, communication is key. It's like, why did you say?

I heard you say that. Why did you say that? Do you think that? Is that what you really? It's like really communication is a thing. And so sometimes I say I don't hover and I wait. Sometimes they'll come to me with something. And I love that.

Like, yes, I'm doing something good when they can come and say, this happened. But you're creating a space where your kids don't feel always beat up by you. Like you're helicoptering all the time. And you can have open communication dialogue. Like your friend did that? Why? Is that, you know, like give them the opportunity to explain and learn their own values from their own experiences and kind of help lead them that way. So I try that.

There is more helicoptering going on in parenting. I know when we were growing up, you know, Craig played a lot of sports. We did activities. We had parents that supported us, but they were never at every game. Yeah, of course not. They would never go to a, they were working, right? I mean, you had to figure out how to get to practice. And it wasn't an expectation.

You didn't feel unloved because, and my father tried to go to as many games as he could, but that was never the expectation. You know, our parents never interfered in school, you know. But you knew the expectations. You knew the expectation, but our parents would never intervene. And I know just from my experience, raising my kids in communities of, and you've talked about seeing this as a coach, parents are really, like you said, they're heavily curating their kids' experiences rather than advising on the sideline.

Yeah. You know, they're trying to stop. bad things from happening or having any bad feelings happen to their kids. Craig, you've seen this in coaching. I've seen it in coaching and I've seen it in parenting. I just can't figure it out because... It comes from a place of love. It comes from a place of love sometimes.

Oh, well. Other times it comes from a place of ego. Because as I'm sure you've seen with you, you know, you've got sons who've played sports at a high level. for some parents, that's not just the kids' attribution. That's theirs. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Because they weren't that athlete, but their son is,

and now they're living through their son. And I just, I think you do your kids a disservice when you're... When you don't let them find their way? They've got to have their own experience. For sure. I mean, hopefully there's some listeners who see themselves in these kind of descriptions And I tend to agree with Craig that, you know, I don't think we do our kids justice by not letting them learn how to, you know, take their own lumps and recover from it. Yeah.

Like you don't want the first bump to be at 30 or is 27. Agreed. You want to get, you want to let them get those bumps at 10. Yeah. And get the seven-year-old bumps and learn how to deal with those so you can handle the 10-year-old bumps. And then the 15-year-old bumps. And then by the time you're out on your own, you've learned as a child that you're capable of solving your own problems.

You know, but if... The alternative is trouble. And then when a parent intervenes, you're also subconsciously telling them, I don't think you can handle this. Yeah, that's true. Right. And so now you've got that message in their head that my mother doesn't even think I can figure this great situation out. So let me get that.

call her now because I don't think I can do it. We're so thrilled that Pinesaw is a partner of IMO. Pinesaw has been connected to our family forever. To this day, whenever my sister and I catch the scent of Pinesaw, we automatically feel better about life. The smell of Pinesaw has always taken us back to our childhood home. It is amazing how smells can transport you to a place or a moment in time. Another smell that takes me back is cherry blossoms, which always remind me of visiting Michelle in D.C.

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Visit Pinesaw.com to find where to shop Pinesaw multi-s Cleaner in the new fresh cherry blossom scent. This episode of the IMO podcast is brought to you by Better Health. How many times a day do you compare yourself to others or wish your life look like someone else's? We all do it sometimes because it's easy to envy friends' lives on social media when you only see the good parts. But you know what they say, comparison is the thief of joy, and in reality, nobody has it all together. Therapy can help you focus on what you want instead of what others have. Like that career goal you set your sights on, or that relationship,

you want to grow, or that daily habit you want to get into. Because your best life is always better than the idea of someone else's. We believe in therapy at IMO, and we've seen firsthand how beneficial it is to invest in your own well-being. You know, this reminds me of my teams, when I coach back in my day, we didn't have therapists assigned to the team. And boy, it sure would have been nice to have access to BetterHelp so I could send my players to someone who I could trust and was reputable. Better Help has experienced therapists ready to help you with challenges ranging from anxiety and relationships to stress.

It's convenient too. You can join a session with the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life. And you deserve that. It's time to stop comparing and start living with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash IMO today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash IMO. You know, you're making me think of something. When my son, my oldest, first went to high school,

I made a decision that I was not going to set his alarm clock. If I heard his alarm clock going off for his snooze, I was not going to go in the room and wake him up. I was not going to make him breakfast. And, you know, I did a lot of that in junior high school. And I made a hard decision. But that's why I say sometimes it's from love. Your instinct is, I don't want you to be late. Let me go make sure.

And then I said, if I start doing this now, his whole high school experience, I'm going to have to do this. And I don't want to do that. I'd rather him have a few latenesses this week, have the teacher say something to him. And let's get this over with so we can get you in a routine so that I do not have to do this for the next four years. So I made a conscious decision at the beginning of high school that I was not going to wake him up. I was not going to make him breakfast. He's going to get himself up,

get his shower, make his breakfast, and get on the bus and get out of here. See, now, I want my daughters with that young man. Oh, yeah. You know? The one who had to get up on his own and figure that out. And I do agree. This all comes from love, you know. Yes, for sure. I mean, it's the love of not wanting, look, you have these kids. You don't want a hair out of place. You don't want them to feel any of the, make those decisions. I get it, but that's the hard part of parenting is like you've got to let them oversleep. Our mom gave us alarm clocks in kindergarten. Oh, your mother was ahead of the curve. Yeah, because she, but she grew up with a sister that was a grown woman who had to be awakened by

her father. And my mother is a middle child watching that said that that's the most ridiculous thing that there's a grown woman who's going to work who can't get up on her own. And she just said, That's because my father keeps, has kept, has enabled her her entire life. My mother had big family, so we won't even name which, which aunt this was. By the way, they know who they are. They know who they are. And she just said, that's not going to be you all. Because you were capable, even at five, she showed us out of work the alarms and said,

you're now in school. This is your education. It's not mine. So you have to want this more than I want it. And I tried to carry that on, especially with the girls in the White House, when there's so much, they could have grown up for eight years in some catered false environment. And then they'd be turned out into the streets, right? Because it was going to be over, right? And we weren't going to live there.

Right. That was my whole thing. And I think that's what parents have to think is the and then what. Yeah. What happens when they aren't in your home? And then what? Have you prepared them? Have you prepared them?

And I think that's the greatest gift. That's the love we give them is to do the hard thing for us early so that when they're out there, they can really function. And I'll tell you something, nothing feels better than being a parent and maybe not even being sure. Oh my God, can they handle this or he's going to that. Let me sit. Let me just wait. And then they actually, they come to you. Oh, no, I did it.

I was like, there's nothing more fulfilling as a parent than watching your. child be able to do something on their own and handle a situation. So, Angie, let's help Jessica get to that point because you said something earlier that really struck me when you said that your sons will come to you and ask you, what should I do in this situation? And if your son comes and says, hey, look, I'm around these toxic guys. I don't know that those words would come up some teenage version.

He's tripping. Yeah. And I want to fit in with them, but I want to be, I want to do the right thing. Yes. What can we tell Jessica some tools to help her with her son? In terms of how to answer that question. How to answer that question. Like I said, it goes, you have to feed them.

You answer it in a way where they're forced to answer the questions. Don't give them all the answers. present them with situations where they have to figure out the answer and you guide them through it. Like, gosh, it's tricky because you don't want to tell other people's business. But one of my friends had a problem with one of his friends got into a situation. And my son said, well, do you think he did that? He was accused of something.

And he said, well, do you think he did that? I said, well, honestly, you spent way more time with him than I have. Do you think he's capable of that? What does your experience spend? Why do you like him? Like it just gave me an opportunity to get to understand how what he values in friendship, what he values in other people. And I was really pleased with the way he answered those questions for me. And it was honest.

And instead of saying, well, you shouldn't hang out with them because they probably did. And, you know, all my stuff, it was an opportunity for me to have him think about what he values in friendships and human beings and people. You know, I'm smiling because Malia taught me that parenting principal very early. Three years old, she had a friend in nursery school who was just kind of not a nice girl and was always, I'd go pick her up from nursery school. And there was always some story about Anna Maria or what she did. And she was mean, but they were friends and buddies. And so she's in the car seat and I'm driving. And I'm just like, oh, your teacher just said Anna Maria did da-da-da-da-da.

And I was like, why are you? I just laid in Anna Maria. I was like, why are you friends with her? You know, I mean, you should, she just doesn't seem nice. Aren't you tired of that? And da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. You knew what you would say. I know. I was telling her my feelings about her friend. And this little kid said to me, she said, I said, well, why are you friends with her? And she says, well, you remember when I was little? I was like, yeah. It's like when I first went to kindergarten nursery school and I didn't have any friends. She said, I said, yeah. She said, and Anna Marie was my friend. And she was my first friend. I was like, yeah.

The wind is blowing out of my sail. And she said, well, you know, I can't just stop being her friend just because she doesn't do everything right. I was like, oh, you're right. You know? And by that, she explained to me, as you did, why she was friends with Anna Marie. And I couldn't take issue with her assessment of it. She understood at three, the situation. And it wasn't about my feelings about her.

And I should not have intervened. And she went on, I mean, they weren't friends forever. But that is a difficult thing because out of love, you don't want anybody messing with your three-year-old. You're like, where are you with the day? They are worthy of your friendship. They aren't worthy, you know. But I learned that the lesson that you talked about is like, don't always interject. You know, some of the best things you can do is ask the question.

and show them that you trust their judgment about how they see the world and get in a conversation. That's for sure. Because you're so busy putting ourselves and our view of the world and our stuff on them that sometimes you have to like peel back and get to know, well, who are you? Well, what does make you, how what does, you know, move you and inspiring and all those things? I talked to Barack about that too because as we, our two girls are very different. you know, and as all are all kids. It's like you have the first child and, you know, they're easy and talkative and all that. You think you're a great parent.

And then you have the second one who is just the opposite, you know. But both my girls, I love them to death, but they are clear personalities. And parenting through that is really getting to know them, you know, because they tell you, they tell you from the time they're two, three, who they are, how they think, what their temperament, are, but you've got to be a listening parent. And then you've got to accommodate to how they hear things, how they see the world. I say parenting is like fly fishing. Never been fly fishing, but from what I've seen about it, it's all in the wrist, you know? It's a very delicate balance of lure and wind and, you know, the flow of the stream. It's like nothing works the same way

every time. It's elegance, right? It's not dunk and drop and grab. We should go fly fishing. We should go fly. Better than golfing. No, it's so good. It's like Ariana Huffington has like one of my favorite quotes, which is the life is the dance between making it happen and letting it happen. Yeah. And it's really the same thing with parenting. It's like you want to protect them, you want to give them, you want to nurture them,

but also you have to let them show you things, show you who they are, let them come to you and all those things. Because they amaze you too. Yes. I learn from my voice all the time. Yeah. Yeah. They will amaze you if you give them the space.

If you allow them to, if you allow them to. Now, I want to hone in on some tools for Jessica. And what I'm hearing from the two of you is empathy. I'm nervous. Bring it back. It's like, now we're fly fishing. It's like, poor Jessica, she won't know what to do. It's like, okay, Jessica, Craig gets focusing.

I'm just, I want to make sure. The good thing about Jessica is you clearly love your child. You took the time to write that eloquent, beautiful, thoughtful note, which means that you spend a lot of time thinking about and loving on your kid. And so chances are he's going to be okay. My mother always said, like, when my mother became a grandmother, she was like, I heard this thing about kids and I believe it. You just got to love them.

You just love them till they're juicy with love. And the rest of that, everything you can't control, but just love them. And so clearly she does. But I think something that I found hard to do with my two older kids, but easier to do with the two younger is what both of you talk about, that we almost gloss over, but it's a big part of this is being empathetic. Seeing life through your kid's eyes and not overreacting. And both of you have talked about it. And especially the point about sort of the counseling judo of asking your son the question, well, what would you do in this situation? That is so simple.

But it's hard for people to do because some parents don't want to know the answer if it's not the right answer. Or they're trying to guide the answer. Control it. They're trying to control the answer. You can't do it. If I tell you the answer, let me give you a leading question. Let me tell you. And it's like, you know, what I would say to Jessica is mirroring what Angie said is, you know, first you've got to do the work early on to set the values, right?

And you've got to be modeling and make sure that in your household, the adults that he's seeing, the conversations that you're in. So you've got to also look at the household you run and, you know, the conversations, how you carry yourself. carry yourself because that's going to be the first lessons as the first and most important lessons are the lessons he's seeing Jessica live out. And coming from people with older kids, I'm surprised at how much is baked in. You don't know it while you're cooking up the cake. But as they get older, they show you, oh, you were listening. Oh, you did. Oh, you did. Oh, I love that. It's my favorite. You did pick that up. You were watching. You saw me add in the buttermilk and you were watching the recipe happen, right?

But they've got to have good things to watch. And then you've got to trust them and put them in situations where they can be, because they can practice their humanity with people. Get them off the phone. You know, make sure the fact that he's in a room with friends and not on a phone and that they're having, if they're having a real person conversation with a bunch of boys, that's a good thing. Also, you know, there is this sad truth is that you could do everything right.

That's for sure. And life be life. And life. Your kids make mistakes. Your kids have troubles. They have hard times. And it's not something that you did. You can't control the outcome of every situation.

That's the hard part of parenting. That's like the heartbreaking part of parenting. You've got to think about that before you even have the baby. Nobody tells you that when you have the baby. I've been trying. I've been trying to tell people. I always say that I tell people too, because I say the one thing that pissed me off about parenting is like when I got pregnant, nobody told me when my son was a baby. I would look at his chest and see if he was still breathing. I go in the room and I would do that for weeks. And then I said, okay, I'm I can't sleep. When does this part stop? And the day that I realized, oh my gosh, this never stops.

I was furious and nobody told me that. Like, this is a big deal. Like forever, I have somebody to worry about it. Forever and ever, amen, as I say, you know. I don't care how old. And then they'll have grandkids and you'll feel the same way about them. So it just goes on. It's torturous. It's really torturous. So we got to think about this because parenting is for, you know. It ain't for everybody.

It ain't for suckers. It's not for suckers. You've got to be tough. You got to, you know, you got to be. And so we have to prepare. Jessica has to prepare her son for that life. Because life ain't for suckers, right? So he's got to be ready because life will.

have challenges. And so parenting with that in mind, preparing kids for the world that they will enter, not the world that mom hopes they will have or the ones that she can manipulate to make it feel okay, because it will never be like that. It will, at some point, her son will hit a roadblock, will have a stumble, will have a bad interaction. And so he has to be ready to handle that, which means that she's got to let him practice making mistakes and having friendships that go awry and learning how to correct that. She's got to coach and advise. She can't live his life for him.

And if she's thinking all along, I'm creating an adult, a full-blown adult in the world that's going to drive a car and have other kids and work a job and be somebody's neighbor. And he's going to be a man. And he's going to be a man in this world. He's not your little boy out in the world. Please, make these men ready. Get them ready for hurt and disappointment and make them resilient. And you can't do that if you're monitoring his friends

and trying to interfere and make life easy for him at a young age because he won't be ready for what. is inevitably out there. I don't care what race he is. He's going to be a man in the world, and there will be hardships and disappointments, and he's got to be ready. I know I do that with my girls. And people say mothers raise their girls and love their sons. And I'd say, love your son, but raise him too. Raise him to be as strong as you know he's going to have to be. You know, teach him about how to deal with a traffic stop, but also teach him how to communicate in a marriage

and be a listening father and to, you know, be a compassionate neighbor and to be a voting citizen, you know, somebody who's going to pay attention and care about something outside of himself, you know. And if you're thinking about that human, then all these choices become a little more clear. It's about what he needs as a grown man. the world. That would be...

You should have threw a boy in the mix. I would... I'm so glad I didn't have a boy. Why? You'd have a third third. Because he would have been a Barack Obama. Oh, my... We had a baby Barack. It would have been amazing. Oh, no, I would have felt for him. She just borrowed our boys.

Yes, I got plenty. She always borrowed ours. I got plenty. It's funny. Well, what do you do? Do you think we gave enough tools? No, I think we gave too much. I think we went... Sorry if we took you on a whole roller coaster ride. Jessica.

This was really good. We're so sorry. This is what I will say, and we don't know if Jessica's married or not. It's true. We didn't hear that part about it. But that's why we have wives because you all know what you're talking about. Yeah, but y'all got to know something too. You got to contribute.

Come on, dude. See, here's what happens. Sorry. That was unquote. I was a little bit. Double-teemed. I'm sorry. You know, you struck a nerve with both.

All the guys in here like, like, we both do. We both kind of. Like, well, it's like, yeah, don't put it all on us. It's like, that's why you have to know. You watch yourself. Jessica, I hope this was helpful. I hope so, too, Jessica. I love it.

I love it. And you threw something else in there at the end. It says after empathy and after asking the questions, you have to trust. You have to trust the process and trust your son. So, no, I think this has been pretty good. There you go. And that's another thing. Prayer it all hurt.

Little prayer. Like, Jesus, please help them. Please help them, protect them. Well, Angie, I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed this. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me. This is good. Thank you for coming.

You are a legend. And thanks so much for being here. Thank you. Sorry, me ganged up on you in that one little moment. I don't apologize. That was perfect. I'm fine with it. I'm fine with it.

I'm fine with it. I saw my brethren. We are. Yeah. I saw my brethren out there. They're like you fell for the trap. He fell right into the trap. Thank you for having me.

Hopefully we'll do this again. Be well. Bye, Jessica. Wherever you are. Godspeed.